Kathy Griffin: This Joke Made Me The Most Hated Woman in America

Summary

Podcast Summary

We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson
Episode Title: Kathy Griffin: This Joke Made Me The Most Hated Woman in America
Release Date: April 14, 2026
Guest: Kathy Griffin
Host: Paul C. Brunson (WNTT)

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Episode Overview

This episode of "We Need To Talk" explores the extraordinary, tumultuous, and resilient life of comedian Kathy Griffin. From her Chicago beginnings and trailblazing comedy career to global infamy after her infamous 2017 Trump photo and the cascading consequences that followed, Kathy unpacks the humor, pain, and survival mechanisms that shaped her story. The conversation touches on family, addiction, career obstacles, cancel culture, mental health, the sexism and ageism of Hollywood, and fiercely honest reflections on fame.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Growing Up in Chicago (03:20–09:42)

• Irish Catholic Upbringing: Kathy was raised by book-smart, liberal dad (staunch Democrat) and more conservative, real-world-smart mom. Politics were frequent dinner table conversation.
• Racism in 1960s Chicago: Kathy witnessed deep racial divides and openly racist family members but always felt “a black Chicago and a white Chicago.”
  • “Hearing my uncle say the N word at that age was shocking, but you couldn’t call it out then.” (05:23)
• Developing Outspokenness: Early reputation as the family “big mouth,” not afraid to call out unspoken truths, even if she was ostracized.

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Family Dynamics, Early Confidence & Humor (08:34–17:33)

• Role Models: Parents modeled enduring love and mutual respect; dad was ahead of his time in sharing household duties.
• Alcohol & Denial: Kathy candidly describes her parents as “full blown alcoholics,” but acknowledges, “We just called it having drinks. Denial was how people survived back then.” (11:00)
• Early Need to Perform: Knew she wanted to be a comedian from first grade (“I was the class clown,” [12:43]) and started the “Kathy Griffin Show” at family dinners, making up stories and telling jokes.
  • “I embellish a lot. Dramatic license.” (16:15)
• Obsessed with Comedy Hierarchies: “I’ve always been very aware—I want to make fun of hierarchies because they are ever present.” (13:37)

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Breaking into Showbiz – The Hustle (17:15–24:35)

• Moving to LA: At 18, Kathy convinced her parents to retire to California for her career; admits to lying about golf research to persuade them.
  • “I lied right to their face about their entire future.” (18:19)
• Crashing Hollywood: Committed to learning by any means, including sneaking onto sets, watching professionals, and doing odd jobs.
  • “Every time I committed that felony, it was worth it.” (22:53)
• First Big Breaks: Paid union work started with a kazoo commercial; recognized she was always in the “sidekick audition clique”—never the ingenue.

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Navigating Hollywood's Hierarchies & Double Standards (24:41–33:31)

• Friendship & Mentorship: Close with Joan Rivers and Carol Burnett; inspired by women who fought misogyny and ageism.
• Slow Career Growth: First real high-profile gig on “Fresh Prince of Bel Air” at age 36 (“I’m a really late bloomer,” [29:43]), and finally a series of TV roles.
• Enduring Rejection & Sexism: Regularly told, “They’re going to go pretty” or “One nose job away from jobs.” Underwent surgery to try to fit in, noting, “The nose job didn’t change shit. I still had to just keep auditioning.” (31:51)

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Comedy, Celebrity Troubles, and Owning the D List (32:10–50:47)

• Typecasting & Celebrity Material: Built her act around celebrity encounters and began getting in trouble for mocking A-listers.
• Suddenly Susan & Standup: Major career leap as the underpaid sidekick; learned the real “hierarchy” of stardom and gendered treatment in Hollywood.
• Financial Independence: Proudly debt-free and financially transparent about earning $50 million—“Not enough women talk about that. I worked really hard for every dollar. That’s a lot of dick jokes to get there.” (47:18)
• ‘My Life on the D List’: Embraced her outsider role, using it for comedic perspective and to “lift up the veil” on celebrity culture.

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Sexism, Ageism, and Comedy’s Gender Problem (53:12–58:30)

• Barriers for Women Comics: Despite critical and financial success, Griffin identifies gender as the “number one obstacle” to ticket sales.
  • “If I’m not funny, women aren’t funny. But if a man’s not funny, he’s not funny.” (56:34)
• Navigating Audiences: Big female and LGBTQ+ following, less straight male support; advocates for recognizing these demographics as valuable.
• Changing the Narrative: “We have to change it by just doing it. Every show, I try to speak to [the men in the audience] and when they give me a chance, they usually laugh.” (57:23)

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The Trump Photo & Global Fallout (62:46–83:34)

Lead-up & Context (62:46–69:14)

• Familiarity with Trump: Previously “cordial,” hosted on his Apprentice show, and regularly encountered the Trumps in TV work.
• Women’s March & Political Climate: Griffin’s activism hardened as Trump’s statements became more inflammatory.

The Photo Itself (69:14–74:51)

• Origin: Created as a satirical response for a photo shoot; “I thought it would be on a gay blog for two days. I wasn’t one bit afraid.” (73:11)
• Symbolism: Inspired by Trump’s remark about Megyn Kelly, and the Perseus & Medusa statue; later, Hillary Clinton noted the overlooked art reference.

Immediate Backlash & Scandal (74:51–83:47)

• Harshest Consequences:
  • Placed on no-fly lists, Interpol, and even investigated as a terror risk; photo was spun as ISIS propaganda by the White House.
  • “They wanted to charge me with the crime of conspiracy to assassinate the President.” (75:41)
  • Spent $3 million on security and legal defense.
  • Abandoned by friends and colleagues: “I lost about 75% of my friends for good.” (71:52)
  • Most painful: Cooper’s public condemnation after years as her New Year’s Eve cohost.
• Personal Struggles:
  • “I then became addicted to prescription pills...I took like 100 pills...Who am I if I’m not being Kathy Griffin and making you guys laugh?” (80:35/81:53)
  • Hospitalized on a psychiatric hold; dealt with credible and violent daily threats tracked by the FBI.
  • “Just going around town with security is not fun for somebody like me, because I’m happy to be on the D list.” (77:10)

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Surviving, Global Redemption, and Community (82:31–87:22)

• Global Audiences: Found international audiences were far more supportive; sold out shows in Europe and Asia post-scandal.
  • “Outside America, they think you’re a hero.” (82:31)
• Building New Friendships: Supported by figures like Kris Jenner, Rita Wilson, Melanie Griffith, and Terry Hatcher during her lowest moment.
• Sobriety & Rebuilding: Got sober from prescription addiction; found connection in AA and began actively reaching out to women who’d survived adversity.

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Mental Health, Resilience & Self-Reflection (87:22–102:00)

• Complex PTSD Diagnosis: Kathy lives with panic attacks and physical symptoms triggered by public exposure and fear of renewed targeting.
  • “Right now, I’m having a panic attack…I’m sweating profusely…But I can still talk to you.” (90:15)
• Cancer, Divorce, and More: Also survived lung cancer and grieves more for her divorce than even the career scandal.
• On Identity & Career: “Who am I if I’m not being Kathy Griffin and making you guys laugh?…My career is really intermingled with my identity.” (81:53)
• Self-Esteem & Cosmetic Surgery: Struggles persistently with self-worth, but humor remains a shield and a salve.
  • “You’re just one nose job away from a job…I went and got a nose job. It didn’t change shit.” (31:47/98:47)

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Relationships & Aging (93:09–98:20)

• High-Profile & Age-Gap Romances: Describes dating Quentin Tarantino, a “situationship” with Conan O’Brien, and even a relationship with Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak (who proposed via email) and younger men.

• Sexuality & Ageism: Pushes back on the notion of women losing desirability or wanting sex with age:

  “Don’t speak for me — I’ll miss it. I miss it now.” (98:09)

• Remaining Open: Remains open (“a little bit open”) to new relationships, but laments the rarity of men her age being interested in a bold, public comic.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “I was getting kicked out of school in first grade because I was the class clown.” (01:11)
• “There is such a thing as bad publicity. It can put you out of work for seven years.” (50:08)
• “If you want something done right, do it yourself.” — on her dad’s work ethic (09:42)
• “I have always been very financially focused. I have no debt. I own my house outright. I'm worth about $50 million." (47:18)
• “I was the most hated woman in America. It really was insane.” (82:25)
• “To be hated at such a high level by so many people for so long—that was it.” (102:33)
• “Thank God for the people. If it wasn’t for John Q. Public and Jane Q. Public just buying tickets, I would still be canceled. People uncanceled me.” (89:07)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Chicago & Family Roots: 03:20–09:42
• Addiction & Denial at Home: 11:00
• Early Comedy & School Life: 13:34–16:30
• LA Move & Hollywood Hustle: 17:15–24:35
• Breaking Stereotypes & Typecasting: 31:17–33:31
• Suddenly Susan & ‘D List’ Identity: 44:40–50:47
• Sexism in Comedy: 53:12–58:30
• Trump Photo Scandal: 69:14–83:34
• Addiction, Suicide Attempt, Recovery: 80:35–87:01
• Complex PTSD & Mental Health: 87:22–91:29
• Relationships & Self-Esteem: 93:09–98:20

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Memorable Moments

• Trump Photo Fallout: The White House framed her as “the queen of ISIS,” leading to investigations, no-fly lists, and millions spent in legal/security costs.
• Holding the Line: Only regretted the apology, not the act itself: “The only thing I regret is for one day, I apologized.” (71:02)
• Rescuing Global Fame: Her vilification in the U.S. flipped to global recognition and respect.
• Panic Attack During Interview: “Right now, I’m having a panic attack...it’s seeing the lights, worrying that one person could say something on Reddit and it all happens again.” (90:15/90:34)

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Closing Reflections

Kathy Griffin’s conversation traverses trauma, humor, resilience, and growth. She lays bare the personal costs of confronting power, the long arc of female comedians in showbiz, and her unflinching survival—canceled but never silent, always hustling, always fighting for the story, and for her right to belong.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Kathy Griffin]

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[Interviewer]

That's why you rack Focus features in Blumhouse present Obsession.

[Kathy Griffin]

When I have a crush on a guy no one knows, be careful. I wish Nikki loved me more than anyone in the entire world.

[Interviewer]

Who you wish for obsession is 96% fresh on rotten Tomatoes.

[Kathy Griffin]

I love you so, so, so, so much.

[Interviewer]

It's blood soaked nightmare fuel.

[Kathy Griffin]

Brooke, I just bludgeon put on her.

[Interviewer]

You have been warned. Obsession. Rated R under 17. Anime without parent only theaters May 15 with special engagements in Dolby.

[Kathy Griffin]

What was the ball then? I was on the no fly list then on the Interpol list. They wanted to charge me with the crime of conspiracy to assassinate the President of the United States.

[Interviewer]

So, Kathy, what happened after that moment?

[Kathy Griffin]

So I was getting kicked out of school in first grade because I was the class clown.

[Interviewer]

So at a young age, you know, I'm going to be a comedian.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, okay. They used to say that right to my face. So it's not personal, Kathy, that you had a good audition, but they're gonna go pretty. And I'd be like, oh, Kathy. There was no OIC then. No, you had to starve yourself. I thought if I stick with it and get better, it will be my turn someday. And then it eventually was my turn. Your uncle's doll. Doll, doll, doll.

[Interviewer]

I did definitely want to talk about relationships. So Quentin Tarantino, Cody and o', Brien, and then Steve Wozniak.

[Kathy Griffin]

I'm gonna be honest.

[Interviewer]

You could see how there's many traumatic events.

[Kathy Griffin]

The picture. Cancer, divorce, addiction, not working. I have learned that the cliche there's no such thing as bad publicity is actually not true.

[Interviewer]

Your career, your friendships, everybody abandoned me.

[Kathy Griffin]

So I then became addicted to prescription pills. I took like 100 pills because I was like, who am I if I'm not being Kathy Griffin and making you guys laugh?

[Interviewer]

Would you go back in that moment and change anything?

[Kathy Griffin]

The only thing I regret is.

[Interviewer]

Oh, hey there. Before we begin, I just want to say if you enjoy this conversation, be sure to like it. Be sure to comment about what you appreciated and be sure to subscribe. It helps us to bring more guests that you want to see. Thank you. Kathy Griffin, we need to talk.

[Kathy Griffin]

We need to talk right now. I mean today, at this moment.

[Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Kathy Griffin]

In these outfits right here.

[Interviewer]

Right here, Right here. First, can I say the outfit? Outfit is 10 out of 10.

[Kathy Griffin]

The jeans are the most expensive jeans I've ever had, and they're by Victoria beckham, and they're $524.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my goodness.

[Kathy Griffin]

And I bought them in four different kinds of, like, levels of stonewash. And it comes with a note signed from Victoria Beckham, so I kind of feel like we're friends.

[Interviewer]

And you have four pairs of these.

[Kathy Griffin]

Four pairs.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my gosh. Can we go to 1960s Chicago?

[Kathy Griffin]

Sure.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so this is where you're born.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yep.

[Interviewer]

All right.

[Kathy Griffin]

In 1960 in Oak Park Hospital, Oak Park, Illinois.

[Interviewer]

All right. Can you. Because a lot of people will not understand what Chicago was like in the 1960s.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, okay. So Chicago in the 1960s. Remember, I was 0 to 10. So I'll tell you what I remember. I remember probably first memory is when JFK was assassinated and the world just stopped. And I think my mom was ironing. So I have. Either I've made that up or I really remember it. Racial stuff was really intense because we had our convention there, and white people would call them riots, and black people would call them a protest. I now think they were a protest. And we had something called the Chicago seven. So it was a very politically charged city. And luckily, my parents were very intellectual, especially my dad. My dad was, like, book smart. My mom was, like real life smart. And you had to come to the dinner table knowing your shit, really. Because we would go over what was in the papers, not one newspaper, but multiple papers for the city of Chicago. And there was always an alderman on the take or some scandal going, or the. We were always pissed off at our mayor. Whoever the mayor was. We were pissed off.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Is that Richard Daly, Honey?

[Kathy Griffin]

Talk about a machine. They literally called. He was so corrupt, they called it the Daily Machine.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

And so I remember being raised Irish Catholic. I'm now a fallen Catholic, but being raised Irish Catholic, we were sort of in the machine.

[Interviewer]

Yes. And so can we spend a second on the racism?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because so I've read lots of Martin Luther King's Jr. S work, and I will never forget he was talking about the west side of Chicago, roughly 1966, that it was the most hostile racism that he had ever seen. And this is Martin Luther King Jr. Saying this. Yeah. So I can't imagine what the hostility was like. You're only, what, 6, 7, 8 at the time?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. But I had an uncle that was a real racist cop. And so hearing him say the N word at that age was very shocking. But it was also a culture where I would have gotten in trouble if I had corrected him. Of course, now I reflect on that and I think, oh, I was such a loudmouth kid. I should have said something then. But it was so bizarre because it did feel like there was a black Chicago and a white Chicago. And when I got to personally intersect, it was always a good experience. I never had any bad issue with people of different colors. I can't say like, anything bad happened to me or there was a consensus of bad things or whatever would make people. But I certainly remember hearing the N word at the picnics and, you know, it kind of came out of people's mouths like it was nothing.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Kathy Griffin]

And then I remember, you're gonna laugh at this, but it was actually considered woke back in the day to go from N word to Negro. Then Negro, believe it or not, was respectful.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Kathy Griffin]

Then it went to black. And of course, now I kind of go back and forth and I ask the person, like, do you prefer African American or black or something else?

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Kathy Griffin]

What do you prefer?

[Interviewer]

Right. You know what's interesting is I'm.

[Kathy Griffin]

No, no, really, what do you prefer?

[Interviewer]

Truly, I'm open to all of it in particular, because. So I live in the UK now, and what I've noticed is that there are 15 check mark boxes for any type of version of black. It could be Afro Caribbean, it could be, you are literally from Nigeria or Ghanaian. So there's a lot more options, if you will. So me personally, I'm open to it all.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

But now how did you then remain? Cause I feel like throughout, I mean, I don't know you know you, but I feel like I kind of know you.

[Kathy Griffin]

You know me, I know you.

[Interviewer]

I know you.

[Kathy Griffin]

You guys all know me, I know you.

[Interviewer]

I know you. Is that you have always presented to me as very liberal, very open minded. How did that form from that base in Chicago?

[Kathy Griffin]

I think because my parents were split politically, my mom leaned a little more Republican, and my dad was a staunch Democrat, worked at the precincts, canvassed, and he was the more involved one. And my mom being a Republican, I think I thought that was just kind of fun because I felt like her arguments never held up. And my dad's arguments for his base and his way of liberal thinking made sense to me. And so politically I just made fun of my mom and then leaned toward my dad.

[Interviewer]

Hey there. I just want to share a content warning. This episode includes discussion of addiction. If you or someone you know needs support, we've included resources in the show. Notes. Please take care while watching. Okay, so now thinking about you. So you're talking about Maggie.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Right. Your father, John. All right. What do you believe you learned about love and relationships from your parents?

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay. When I would ask my mom and dad, who were married for 64 years, I would ask them, what is the secret? And my mom would say, well, the guy has to love the woman 5% more. That, for some reason, was some stat that she had in her hat. You know, the Republicans, she can't talk to them. They make no sense. And my dad would consistently say, until the day he passed away, I just think your mom is the greatest woman. Most beautiful, funniest, smartest. My best friend, and I just think she's the tops. That's beautiful. I know. And he really meant it. And he treated her with respect. He respected her opinions. He listened to her. He changed diapers. He was actually quite a feminist. He probably wouldn't have used that word, but he really thought women were equal. And he pitched in. As a dad, he worked in retail. Like, we didn't come for money. So we worked at a store called Radio Shack.

[Interviewer]

Radio Shack, Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes. So he was the manager of Radio Shack.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my God.

[Kathy Griffin]

And my mom and I would. We had one car. My mom and I would go pick him up in the Dodge Dart after work, and I get to go along for the ride if I was, you know, good that day or something. And my dad would be sweeping the floor because he'd be pissed that the kids that were working for him weren't sweeping well enough. And he'd be like, God damn it, I gotta sweep the floor once again. If you want something done right, do it yourself. And that kind of encapsulates who they really were.

[Interviewer]

I could see it. I could see it now. You had four siblings.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, so I was the youngest of five.

[Interviewer]

So with the five of you all.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Your brother's 20 years older.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So that's why you're saying it could be come and go.

[Kathy Griffin]

He was pretty much out of the house, but he was still very present in our lives. And my mom was so twisted, she made my oldest brother my godfather. And the second oldest, who was my sister Joyce, my only sister, was my godmother. So, you know, if you're Catholic, that shit sticks. Like, if my parents were to die in a plane crash, then I would have been just given to my older siblings that's interesting. Well, I guess when you're the youngest of 16, you're warped as well.

[Interviewer]

I don't think she was warped. She wasn't warped. Right.

[Kathy Griffin]

I mean, she enjoyed her boxed wine, that's all.

[Interviewer]

Did she? Did she?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, my God. And then whiskey.

[Interviewer]

And then whiskey. Did she. So now she drank.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But do you think that bordered on alcoholism?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, I think they were full blown alcoholics, but they never did. And they thought it was a riot that I would say stuff like, okay, let's see if you guys can go one day without booze. If you're non alcoholic, you can go one day. And they would be pouring the wine going, oh, Kathleen, you're so dramatic. And so I would say that they came from an era like the TV show Mad Men where you would have a drink even at the office. And I just grew up in a house of a lot of denial, you know, And I think that's why I'm this kind of comedian. I like to shine the light on stuff. I'm not afraid to say anything because I grew up in a household with, you know, of the time, Irish Catholic secrets a little too much drinking. But we didn't call it alcoholism then. It was just having drinks. And yet I think back on that time and it's kind of amazing that we survived it.

[Interviewer]

So this is the part that I'm confused on.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Because you said you grew up in this house, lots of denial, but yet you recognized it.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So there was a level of confidence that you had. But I know that throughout your career you've suffered with self esteem.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Interviewer]

Two different things, but connected. So when you think about what do you think it was maybe about you, maybe just about the environment that allowed you to see through the lies.

[Kathy Griffin]

It's a curse. It's a curse because I would say stuff that the rest of the family just wouldn't say out loud. And then I became the odd man out. I was the big mouth of the family. And the rest of them were like, enough, Kathleen.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so you were the big mouth.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yep.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Kathy Griffin]

Were you from early on child age?

[Interviewer]

How old do you think?

[Kathy Griffin]

Like first grade.

[Interviewer]

First grade?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, I was getting kicked out of

[Interviewer]

school in first grade because of.

[Kathy Griffin]

Because I was the class clown. And I would sass back at the nuns. And those nuns were vicious. One time, get this, I got in trouble for. I was too boy crazy. And I was like hitting on some other first grade boy. And then the nun said, put on your coat. So I put on my winter coat and we Used called the cloakroom. And it was just where you hung your coats. She hung me up on a hook because there was a loop in the back of the jacket. And I had to hang there like that in the cloakroom until I was out of trouble, see? Cause I talked too much and I was boy crazy.

[Interviewer]

And you were boy crazy.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. All right.

[Interviewer]

First grade.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Now when you were talking too much, was it cracking jokes? Yeah, it was jokes.

[Kathy Griffin]

Cracking jokes. And probably making fun of the nun. Probably making fun of the class itself. You know, the institution. Going to a Catholic school was super crazy.

[Interviewer]

So you knew in first grade. Yeah, this was crazy.

[Kathy Griffin]

I thought it was crazy. The whole wearing uniforms and the hierarchy, you know, I call my show my life on the D list. Cause I've always been very aware of. I want to make fun of hierarchies because they are ever present. And whether it's a list to D list, or the cool kids and the jocks and the nerds and the theater kids, I was kind of aware early on, oh, there's groups and you have to levitate toward one of. And I tried to be a floater, and I couldn't pull it off as a floater, so I had to go with the bad kids.

[Interviewer]

Okay, you went with the bad kids.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you were. But you're naturally probably a theater kid. Yeah, but the theater kids weren't the bad ones.

[Kathy Griffin]

But they wanted to take off classes to rehearse. So there was like. We were so into the theater that we thought that was our purpose for school.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

So we'd be ditching like math and science. Then we'd go and rehearse or try to crack more jokes or go into the city for a day. Like take the L and go into downtown Chicago. That was a big deal.

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes. So did you consider yourself more comedic, more truth teller at that age?

[Kathy Griffin]

I was trying to be comedic because I was obsessed with all the sidekicks on the shows that I grew up loving. Like the Mary Tyler Moore Show. But I never wanted to be Mary because I was like, well, the pretty girl gets to star on the show, but the funny girl, like Rhoda or Phyllis, they come in, they kill, they get a joke, and then they get out. And I thought that's what I should do. Cause I'm too much to be the star. I should be the sidekick where I just come in, boom, get my daggers out, and then leave the room.

[Interviewer]

How old were you when you made that realization?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, it's one of my first memories. Like, I've Known that I wanted to do this since I can remember.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer]

How did you start to practice or rehearse?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, I did the Kathy Griffin show at the family dinners, which was never a hit. So my mom, who didn't cook, she would make something called Hamburger Helper.

[Interviewer]

Remember this one?

[Kathy Griffin]

A dish predicated on the notion that hamburger needs help. And so she would make dinner.

[Interviewer]

Dumped out of the box.

[Kathy Griffin]

Out of it. And the sauce was a powder that she just put hot water on. And my favorite was Bea Stroganoff. Let's go with. And I would pull up a chair and I would say, okay, it's time for the Kathy Kirfin Show. Then I would sing the theme to the Johnny Carson show, which I did not have the rights to do and I will not do now. And I would do readings from a book I was reading at school. I would do characters, I would try to tell jokes, and mostly I made up stories. Made up stories, which I'm doing to this day.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. Well, I shouldn't say makeup. I embellish. I embellish a lot.

[Interviewer]

You embellish. You embellish.

[Kathy Griffin]

Dramatic license.

[Interviewer]

All right, all right. So at a young age, you know. Yeah, I'm going to be a comedian.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. In comedy. I have a sidekick somewhere in the world of comedy.

[Interviewer]

All right. Everyone is telling you this is not an option for you.

[Kathy Griffin]

No. I've been living. I live in Forest Park, Illinois. There's nobody famous from my town. There's nobody who teaches you what a set looks like or what it's like to be a real working actor as opposed to what you think a star is. They didn't talk in those days about the difference between fame and talent and being a star. Like, there weren't influencers. And so I just tried to learn as much as I could and absorb as much as I could. And luckily, my parents were kind of Hollywood Files. Like, they really did love great films and great television and great theater. And so we were pretty. We were pretty open to the arts in our house.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

But the idea of one of us being an artist was insane.

[Interviewer]

Was insane.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So at a very young age, though, I understand you moved to la.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, well, I tricked my parents. I'm gonna be honest. I knew that I couldn't make a living in Forest Park, Illinois, and I knew I had to live in LA or New York, but I couldn't afford to. And I was still young enough to live with my mom and dad.

[Interviewer]

Okay, and how old were you?

[Kathy Griffin]

18. So when they decided to retire because the winters are too brutal in Chicago. My dad loved golf. He lived for golf, never was a member of a club or anything like that, but would go to the par 3 or the public course and loved. And so I told him that I had done a lot of research in many papers and I had clippings that proved that Los Angeles has more public golf courses than any place in the world. And they bought it because they were going to go to San Diego, which is great, but it's also still too far to make a living in la. And so I told them and I backed it up with a couple clippings.

[Interviewer]

Oh my goodness.

[Kathy Griffin]

I had a presentation.

[Interviewer]

So literally, you lied to them?

[Kathy Griffin]

I lied right to their face. Right to their face about their entire future. Think about having a retirement planned. And then your 18 year old just bullshits you with clippings.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that's.

[Kathy Griffin]

When's the last time you heard the word clippings? I mean, seriously, let's start there.

[Interviewer]

Clippings. Yeah, clippings. I know, that's. I mean, do you regret that?

[Kathy Griffin]

No.

[Interviewer]

You don't?

[Kathy Griffin]

I don't. I think it was genius. I can't believe. And then I started doing that stuff more, which I do to this day.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so you lied to get your parents.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, to get my own agenda so

[Interviewer]

you could get to LA. So you get there, you're 18. Yeah, they're there. Are they happy? Does your father say they loved.

[Kathy Griffin]

California is like the moon if you're from Illinois. We couldn't get over the weather alone and we couldn't get over how polite everybody is here. And it's so clean here compared to Chicago at the time. And it was like landing on Mars. I mean, and to look at the ocean for the first time was just wild. I would just walk down there and just look at it, go in it at night. Like a crazy person. Like one 18 year old girl just walks in the Pacific Ocean when it's dark out. I remember a security guard being like, come in, miss, come in, crazy lady. But I still, my mind was blown to be in California.

[Interviewer]

And so your parents are having a good time?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, they're at the par three, they're making friends. My dad's golfing every day, so he's

[Interviewer]

loving it here, obviously.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. But I have to tell you what we did for an activity and this is, like I said, this is all twisted. My mom would look in the paper to see anything where there would be a red carpet. So the three of us, my mom and dad and myself, we went to every red carpet event that was in the paper. Like they'd say, tonight, the premiere of George Lucas new film Star Wars. So we would be among the people at the red carpet, just there with an old fashioned camera. And maybe you would bring an autograph, but you didn't expect selfies or anything like that. And so we used to do that as a family. Go to red carpet after red carpet and just watch celebrities.

[Interviewer]

That is. So what did you learn doing that? Cause I would imagine that you're very observant. Right. So you're going to these red carpets.

[Kathy Griffin]

I learned that the red carpet is part of the job. So the job doesn't stop when you're off stage. And I remember watching these dames thinking, oh, my God, they are really dressed to the nines. They got the hair and makeup on point. I gotta start doing that and I gotta start showing up for auditions as if I'm on the set itself.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And now you just mentioned they've got their hair and makeup on point.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So is that the first time that you realized, okay, visually, there's a certain way I have to present?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes. And I've never seen so many thin people in my life. I couldn't believe how thin everyone was because they're even thinner in person, these celebrities. And everybody's so small. I don't know how anybody survives nutritionally.

[Interviewer]

That's what I'm saying. They were not eating.

[Kathy Griffin]

Not eating? No. There was no Ozempic then.

[Interviewer]

No.

[Kathy Griffin]

You had to starve yourself.

[Interviewer]

You're right. There was no Ozempic then.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my God. So, all right, so you're learning quite a bit. You're only 18. 19.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay, so also, I'm not proud of this. I would also climb the walls of Fox and Warner Brothers, and I would basically commit a felony of breaking and entering on movie studios. And one time I got to watch them film the TV show mash for a whole day by hiding on the set.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Kathy Griffin]

I actually got on the set.

[Interviewer]

This is not an embellishment.

[Kathy Griffin]

Swear to God. My brother John went with me and then we got to watch watch Make Charlie's Angels.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kathy Griffin]

Not kidding. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Farrah Fawcett.

[Kathy Griffin]

No, Not a Farah day.

[Interviewer]

Oh, okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

But the other two brunettes were there. And so my brother would have a fake script, so he would try to get in that way. So we'd get like a pile of papers and get the, you know, the wire things to keep it together. And we would act, we would talk to each other, and we Would sneak into studios really like criminals.

[Interviewer]

You actually. You were a criminal.

[Kathy Griffin]

I was. I am a criminal.

[Interviewer]

You are a criminal. You are.

[Kathy Griffin]

I know. I'm telling you.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So you would break in to watch.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But was the objective, like, just to watch, to learn. Oh, to learn.

[Kathy Griffin]

Because I was like, well, I'm doing community theater. I'm starting to do student films for free and all this stuff, which I still do, by the way. But I was like, how do the pros really do it? And so it was fascinating to watch, especially a show like MASH that was such a well done show. And to watch those actors under that pressure and watch them do multiple takes and different angles. And it was. Every time I committed that felony, it was worth it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. I did not know that. So I can see how focused you were on. This was your career. I mean, it was a career.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

Like, I have the gift of the hustle and always have.

[Interviewer]

Yes. So now you said you were doing community theater.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So that was the beginning of it.

[Kathy Griffin]

And I want to be a professional. Like, I don't want to just do community theater. So when I went to Strasbourg, it was a great environment because it put me people that wanted to go into this as a profession, not just like, you know, the bored person who wants a hobby on the side. I needed to be with people that made a living doing this.

[Interviewer]

What was the first paid gig that you can remember getting after graduating?

[Kathy Griffin]

Commercials. Commercials. I did a commercial for the Chicago White Sox when I lived in Chicago, and they used to have their White Sox park used to be called Comiskey Park. And so I played their theme song on a kazoo, and it was. Was Na na hey, hey, goodbye But I sang Na na hey hey Good times. And they did a close up on my face, or close enough that that's how I got in the union. I went from being an extra to being a principal with a kazoo at Comiskey park singing Na na hey hey.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my gosh. A kazoo.

[Kathy Griffin]

A kazoo.

[Interviewer]

I haven't even heard anyone mention a kazoo in years.

[Kathy Griffin]

I mean, where is the kazoo community when we need them?

[Interviewer]

That's what I'm saying. Kazoo's like, that's a legitimate instrument because

[Kathy Griffin]

I lied and said I could play it, because, as you know, I'll lie to get the gig. And then I learned just that day.

[Interviewer]

Cause you're just humming, though, right?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. It's nothing to learn. But I still got my way from an extra to a principal.

[Interviewer]

Yes. So by 21, though, you haven't landed the big role.

[Kathy Griffin]

Right.

[Interviewer]

What was it that prevented you from giving up?

[Kathy Griffin]

I love it so much. I love it so much. I love the bad days. I love the good days. I love it. Well, all right, the bad days suck, but I learn from them, and I just have a love for it that it doesn't feel like a job. I was dear friends with Joan Rivers, and I told you we would talk about my handbag because her daughter, Chanel. The Chanel bag. Because Joan's daughter Melissa, who's my good friend, she recently had an auction because Joan wanted her things auctioned off. And I went to the preview. I've never been to an auction. And I went to the preview and I said to Melissa, okay, what should I really fight for? And she goes, the Chanel bag. And so I got that Chanel bag, and it reminded me of all the times I would be having lunch or dinner with Joan, and she would come in with the Chanel bag right there, and she would come in and just say something crazy like Charlize Theron or not. And we would sit down and have dinner and go from there. I have nothing against Charlize Theron, by the way. It was just random. We would just talk shit randomly about people.

[Interviewer]

Joan Rivers, Carol Burnett, I would imagine.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. Who grew up with icons, idols made feel like, oh, maybe there's a place for me, because these are women that were gingers or atypical looking at the time. Joan Rivers was revolutionary for many reasons. She was the first female comedian to do a set on the Tonight show while pregnant. She broke every kind of record you can. And so it still blows my mind to say, like, we were good friends because I grew up idolizing her. And then we got to work together and we became good friends. And she's been a really big influence on my life and career.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

I miss her a lot.

[Interviewer]

Yes. I. I always. What I always remember about Joan Rivers was how outspoken she was. Yeah, right.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. Fearless.

[Interviewer]

Fearless.

[Kathy Griffin]

Fearless.

[Interviewer]

Right in the face of so much

[Kathy Griffin]

resistance, so much misogyny and ageism and,

[Interviewer]

you know, I. Ageism, absolutely.

[Kathy Griffin]

Ageism was rough, man. And it hasn't really gotten better. Like, she and I would talk about that a lot because she would talk about how in her day it was only Moms Mabley and Tony Fields, like, that was it. And then Phyllis Diller came along, and then there was a big span of time, and then Joan Rivers came along. So I will say it's a battle that I still fight. The sexism, ageism thing is real. It's out there. I know people get mad when I say that, but I'm living it. So give us ladies of a certain age a chance and we can make you laugh.

[Interviewer]

We're going to go deep on this particular topic.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

But I want to figure out, at what point do you feel like you've broken through? At what point?

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, okay. When I finally got to be on a TV show where it actually was airing. And it was episode five of the entire series of Fresh Prince of Bel Air. So I go to the table read. Andrew Young was there. Quincy Jones was there at the table read because all the writers were white. But it was still kind of revolutionary to give a rapper a show. And Will Smith became such a great actor, and he was kind of fresh and learning, but that was like a wild set to be on. I remember there was a live audience there and Flava Flav did the opening.

[Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, he had the clock and everything, like, and just talked to the audience. And it was just. It was so such a great learning experience to be there. And I was very intimidated by Will, and I learned a lot because he's carrying the whole show. He hasn't really been an actor yet for very long. And I'm watching every move he makes because he's gliding between the Caucasian writers who would say stuff to him in front of me. Like, how would. Well, can you help us out on a particular cadence you may have with this line? Like, they would say make it black, but they didn't know how to say it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kathy Griffin]

So I mean, and then Quincy Jones was right there laughing and, like, trying to tell them. And everyone was well intentioned. Everybody was pulling for Will. And I remember he finally paid attention to me on taping night. And I thought, oh, that was very smart of him. Cause he conserved his energy. The whole show was on his shoulders. And yeah, I'm the guest star, but I'm still a day player unknown. But when it came time, when the chips were down and the audience was out there, he came back and made me feel relaxed and was joking around. And I said to him, I go, what do you want to be called? Do you want to be called Fresh Prince or Prince? And he was like, you can call me Will. And that was a great learning experience, too. And I could finally tell my friends, I'm on the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. It's a real show. It actually exists. And that was the first time that my friends and relatives were like, okay, Kathleen, maybe you can do this.

[Interviewer]

Maybe. You know what's so wild about that story?

[Kathy Griffin]

When I was 36. 36. I wasn't 18.

[Interviewer]

I was 36 when you got that job.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. So I'm a really late bloomer.

[Interviewer]

And you did not give up. That's the part that I keep going.

[Kathy Griffin]

I had every day job you can imagine. I had fun. I fucked every bar back in la, you know, always below the line, every key grip, every best boy. And so I had fun. But no, I was still determined to stick with it because I was in a comedy theater company called the Groundlings and they had a lot of success stories come out of there. And I thought, if I stick with it and get better, it'll be my turn someday. And then it eventually was my turn.

[Interviewer]

You got it. How did you get that gig on Fresh Prince?

[Kathy Griffin]

I auditioned because I was auditioning for every wacky best friend redhead part that they had. So there were a group of us girls that I would see at every audition and I'd walk in, see the same five girls, and they always got the job. So I'd be like, oh, hi. And it was always me, Holly Robinson, Pete, Megan Mullally, Amy Peetz. Others that I'm sure went on to big fame. I can't remember, but it was funny being in that like sidekick audition clique.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

And then eventually, eventually one of the auditions actually paid off. After like 70. Her nose is too big. Sorry. We're gonna go pretty. They used to say that right to my face. They loved you, but they're gonna go pretty. And they would say it like, so it's not personal, Kathy, that you had a good audition, but they're gonna go pretty. And I'd be like, oh, okay, okay. I guess they went pretty.

[Interviewer]

How does that begin to impact your self esteem?

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, you internalize it. You internalize it. I think people that say they don't are lying. I mean, I internalize it to this day. I'm better at staying away from it. But you know when you get told by your own agent, you're really talented, but they're going to go pretty. I remember a casting director said, you are just one nose job away from getting a job. And I went and got a nose job. I would have done anything.

[Interviewer]

Okay, did the nose job change anything for you?

[Kathy Griffin]

Of course not. The nose job didn't change shit. I still had to keep auditioning and not getting jobs. But then finally Fresh Princess took pity on me and hired me for one episode.

[Interviewer]

Look at that.

[Kathy Griffin]

And then I Got a bunch in a row. So I got, like, five guest spots in one year, which was insane.

[Interviewer]

You know, that was when you hit my radar.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

And I think it was Fresh Prince.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, I love it.

[Interviewer]

But what I recall, though, is I feel like it was like, okay, you're a star. That's how I viewed it.

[Kathy Griffin]

So I was so acting as if I was like, okay, I. I'm pretty sure I'm like, somewhat funny. I know I can do this role. I was tailor made for this role, but I have to not be the one that screws up a take, because then the whole crew has to stop because of me. So that was. I was very fear driven.

[Interviewer]

Yes. But also as a comedian, though, in that space, I would imagine it's even more challenging.

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, I will say. And this is something I struggle with to this day, I do struggle doing other people's work, because I then was more of an improviser than a standup. But I was doing so much improvisation, performing two shows Friday, two shows Saturday with the Groundlings. I even taught improv classes, which is the greatest day job I ever had. It was really fun. And so I have to really work three times harder to do other people's lines because I'm so used to saying, okay, I know what this character is. Can I improvise? And on a real show like Fresh Prince, they're just like, no, no, you cannot. And then I was like, okay, yes, sir.

[Interviewer]

Yes. These are the lines.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you said that there was five roles that you got in succession. Right away. Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

Do you remember Mad about yout was one. There was a show called Caroline in the City. I got to be at er.

[Interviewer]

Er, yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. Directed by Quentin Tarantino.

[Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes. And every gig that I would do, he directed er. He directed one very special Blossom.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

That's what I call it. He directed one episode of VR and I got to be on it. Well, I was dating him at the time, but not like, exclusive, but, you

[Interviewer]

know, you were dating him.

[Kathy Griffin]

Situationship. All right. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I have to ask. Yeah, I definitely want to talk about relationships, but we're here.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Well, you're the expert, so. Quentin Tarantino.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Kathy Griffin.

[Kathy Griffin]

In bed together.

[Interviewer]

In bed together.

[Kathy Griffin]

Spooning.

[Interviewer]

Spooning.

[Kathy Griffin]

Spooning.

[Interviewer]

I know.

[Kathy Griffin]

Picture it, people.

[Interviewer]

Let me try to see. Do you spoon him or he spoons you?

[Kathy Griffin]

I'm the little spoon.

[Interviewer]

You're the little spoon?

[Kathy Griffin]

I'm the little spoon.

[Interviewer]

Of course you are. Of course you are. So I would not have made that match.

[Kathy Griffin]

No.

[Interviewer]

Who approached who in that Scenario.

[Kathy Griffin]

I think he approached me, and I remember him being incensed that I had not seen Reservoir Dogs yet. And I was like, I don't know. It sounds like a movie with a bunch of dudes. I mean, I don't know. I hear it's kind of gory. And then he arranged. Not of arrange, but they were screening it at a theater called the New Beverly here in town, and he called the entire cast, and I got to go watch Reservoir Dogs with the cast.

[Interviewer]

That's Next level.

[Kathy Griffin]

And Quentin.

[Interviewer]

That's next level. It's one of my favorite.

[Kathy Griffin]

And we went out to a diner afterwards, and I got to, like, hang with them. And I was just trying to just be cool and, like, fit in and to get a couple jokes out when I can. And it was wild to be in that environment.

[Interviewer]

Do you think he did that? Because he's trying to. To, you know, he's trying to shape.

[Kathy Griffin]

It's a flex.

[Interviewer]

It's a flex.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That was flex. Like, you come over here. Right?

[Kathy Griffin]

Insane.

[Interviewer]

And what was it about him that attracted you to him?

[Kathy Griffin]

I like his mind. You know, he's a very complicated guy. He really loved my dad, which I found very touching. That was really sweet. And I just. I am fascinated by his process. You know, I have this thing. I love excellence. And I know Quentin is problematic in many ways, but I do think he has an excellence when it comes to filmmaking. I know firsthand he has a genuine love for filmmaking like I have for standup. So I think we connected in that way. And, you know, we just went out a few times. But he's a very interesting guy.

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes. You said you love excellence. I could see that.

[Kathy Griffin]

Because I see when he was writing Pulp Fiction, he would call me at like, three in the morning.

[Interviewer]

Are you serious?

[Kathy Griffin]

And read me a scene. That's excellence. Because then the part that I couldn't believe is what he read to me was what ended up in the movie. So very few rewrites.

[Interviewer]

Did he write all of Sam Jackson's parts? Yes, he did. Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

And Sam loves him.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I mean, I know.

[Kathy Griffin]

But now we gotta deal with N word, and it's a thing, and I get it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kathy Griffin]

That's why I was saying. So I'm trying to walk the line.

[Interviewer]

He wrote that. So he wrote that for Sam. Oh, my gosh. Okay, okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

I know. But it was also crazy that John Travolta was in it and playing a hitman.

[Interviewer]

I'm sorry.

[Kathy Griffin]

So it was all nuts.

[Interviewer]

Because I love Pulp Fixture so much, I have to Ask you.

[Kathy Griffin]

I was there for the writing of it.

[Interviewer]

You were there for the writing? Yes. So did he literally read you Sam Jackson's parts?

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay, this is. This is going to blow your mind. Not only did he read all the parts with a cadence that would be inappropriate if I were to do. Let's just say he actually called me the night he wrote the scene about there being no dead n words in the yard.

[Interviewer]

And he just to.

[Kathy Griffin]

When the fixer comes, when Harvey Keitel shows up as the fixer, and he read it, and it was almost word for word the way it ended up in the movie.

[Interviewer]

That is some story that's going to live with me for a long time.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Thank you for that.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yep.

[Interviewer]

My gosh. Okay. Okay. So Ken, on that subject, though, right?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You're dating him. He was directing that episode of er. Yeah, you were in that episode, too. Do you feel like there's a murkiness? Cause you all. I often hear in la, in Hollywood, there's just a lot of co. Mingled.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, it is happening. That's why, you know, I talk about the famous guys I went out with because it's only a couple, and most chicks my age that are in the game, they have, like, a whole laundry list. And I really don't love that part. I don't really care to be with a celebrity because of all the stuff that goes with it, and I just. I know too many. And so I felt like Quentin and I were so more friends. I'd say that it didn't feel like that much of a conflict.

[Interviewer]

Okay. All right.

[Kathy Griffin]

So, yeah, so he cast me in the episode of er and that was crazy because I was such a fan of the show, and I'm in a scene with George Clooney, and then Quentin and George Clooney, and I went to George's trailer and started prank calling our friends. So imagine being able to call one of your friends and go, hey, you want to talk to George Cling and Quentin Tardino right now? That's what we would do.

[Interviewer]

And then what would they say?

[Kathy Griffin]

They would play along.

[Interviewer]

Gosh.

[Kathy Griffin]

Because I would start to stir shit up. Like, that was what I would do. Even on the set of er, I was, like, stirring the pot.

[Interviewer]

Were you? Were you. Did you begin to feel as if you had arrived at that moment?

[Kathy Griffin]

I mean, I still can't believe I was on er. So I've never lost that sense of, oh, my gosh, I am in a room, I'm working with George Clooney. He's different. Like, I'VE worked with a lot of actors in student films and stuff, but. Oh, okay, now I get it. And so I started being around that and had the privilege of learning from every single person I ever worked with.

[Interviewer]

I could see it. I could see it. So, er, suddenly Susan, I would imagine.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. So that was a life changing gig because I was also the girl that they always called when the first girl didn't work out. So they shot the pilot with a different best friend because that was always the best friend or the nosy neighbor or the spying aunt or the yelling at the kids to get off the lawn. Like that was me. Or the hooker with a heart of gold. I played a lot of hookers.

[Interviewer]

Are you serious?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, yeah. Or a madam. I play a hooker or a madam. And happy to, by the way, if it paid the bills. I was happy to.

[Interviewer]

Right, okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

And so I.

[Interviewer]

Can I just say a hooker with a heart of gold.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, Hooker with a heart of gold.

[Interviewer]

That's the key for me. Yeah.

[Kathy Griffin]

That's a niche market that if you can get in, you'll work the rest of your lives.

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes. So you played a lot of those.

[Kathy Griffin]

There's a lot of great movies that have a hooker with a heart of gold.

[Interviewer]

Yes, there are. So these were all roles that you loved?

[Kathy Griffin]

Not only did I love. All right, I can't believe they let me do this. Even when I only had the little part on Fresh Prince or one day on er, they let me bring my parents to every gig I had. And I am not kidding. So you've got these retired old hilarious drunks, and they can't be anything but authentic. They were totally authentic. And I would ask at my low level, I would say, I know this is a weird request, but my parents are from Illinois and they're very polite and I promise they'll be really quiet on set. Would you consider letting them watch? And I'd say they're, you know, like 85 and 87. And at the time they were like 60. And every gig said yes. So every time I had a real gig, I had my mom and dad there with folding chairs that they put in their trunk. And they would just take out the folding chairs. They had a cooler, so the cooler had wine and maybe some, like, cheese and crackers.

[Interviewer]

Why did you do that?

[Kathy Griffin]

It was so much more joyous for me to do the work, knowing it was making them so excited. You know, my dad talking to George Clooney. I knew that would be a meaningful thing for him. And he would tell his buddies at the Golf course about it, or I knew he was so authentic that there was no celebrity, that I couldn't bring them around because they really were just who they were and they were real. And people picked up on it like that.

[Interviewer]

So did you feel as if your parents were proud of you?

[Kathy Griffin]

My parents were proud of me for sure. But that took a while. That was like, maybe when I bought my first house or something that was more tangible. Cause my mom always thought, it's gonna go away tomorrow. And I still think that.

[Interviewer]

At what point do you truly see the hierarchy in Hollywood?

[Kathy Griffin]

I think it wasn't until I had, first of all, when I got to be on a show with someone as globally famous as. As Brooke Shields, who is a global beauty and also famous actress and attracted a ton of attention. And at the time, she was married to the tennis player Andre Agassi. Oh, yeah, she was married to Andre Agassi. Was on meth. He was on meth. That was crazy. Let me tell you about the 90s.

[Interviewer]

You actually destroyed my childhood. I didn't know that he wrote about

[Kathy Griffin]

it in his book. He wrote a book called Closer. Like, look at me Closer. And, yeah, he dropped the bomb that he was doing men. Like, did they not test urine for tennis? For tennis in the 90s. But anyway, they were quite a couple. So I learned a lot from watching them be hounded by paparazzi, how they carried themselves, when they would respond to a rumor, when they would not. And that was wild to be even in the presence of Brooke Shields and Andre Agassi. And then I saw the way men fawn over an athlete, and it was different. Like, they were knocked over by Brooke. But when Andre would come around, the head of the studio would come, the head of the network would come, and they could barely even talk to him. They were like, oh, Mr. Agassio, it's nice to meet you, sir. You are great. And I was like, oh, it's different for guys. They have a different kind of adulation. And on that show is when I met Donald. Donald Trump.

[Interviewer]

Donald Trump, Yeah. Suddenly Susan.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you remember first meeting Delicate?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, yeah, of course. You can't miss him with the hare. That bird's nest of a hare. It was even then, it was crazy. Now he was not as crazy. Let me just say he was still with Marla Maples. So he brought Marla. And I remember he was bitching a lot that Warner Brothers didn't send a private jet for him. Which is funny. Cause they just didn't do that for anybody. But he Thought that they would break the rules for him. And I remember him complaining a lot about having to fly out to California from New York. But other than that, he was just a total star fucker. He wanted to be around Brooke as much as possible. He wanted to tell people that he was friendly with Brooke Shields. It was a wild episode because he was already a really famous guy. And we thought he was this successful realtor. Yes, that's what we thought. No political aspirations whatsoever.

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes. And that was probably what, right around art of the deal.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, it was prior to the Apprentice, though.

[Interviewer]

Prior to the Apprentice. Okay. Now I'm really curious about the hierarchy. So. And that's interesting. You saw how there was this adulation for Agassiz, which was above Brook Shield.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes, so much.

[Interviewer]

Okay, what else did you notice? So is that where you started to really see? Okay, there's an A list.

[Kathy Griffin]

There's an A list. And I also, I learned so much from Brooke about how to deal with the media. Now she and I deal with them in opposite ways. I run towards the controversy. She's more, you know, stately and is an idol to this day. And all this, she has an actual legacy. I'm just getting in trouble whenever I can. But I did learn a lot from watching her work with the media and soften things out or like I said, deal with rumors. And I had never been around anyone for a length of time that was that famous.

[Interviewer]

Okay, okay. So this is suddenly Susan.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. I got auditioned on a Friday. They called me Friday night. You're going to work on Monday on a show that already has an order for 23 episodes. Oh, my God. And then my whole life changed in one day.

[Interviewer]

What was the fee for that? Do you remember?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, Yeah. I got 15 an episode. So 15k an episode was my quote at the time. And in those days, nobody talked about salaries, which I didn't like. So I went around asking everybody else what they were making, and I found out I was the second lowest paid print one on the show.

[Interviewer]

On the show.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Still $15,000.

[Kathy Griffin]

15K an episode for 23 episodes per episode.

[Interviewer]

So this is the most that you've ever made.

[Kathy Griffin]

And I did my first HBO standup special. So I was doing stand up concurrently. Can I be honest? I don't know how I did it. I was doing a 40 hour job or whatever. Suddenly Susan was. And, you know, high stakes, trying to keep the studio happy, the network happy, trying to get a raise. Every year I tried to get a raise. And also doing standup and trying to make my voice separate from Suddenly Susan. And then I got my very first standup special because I was a girl. So they wanted to meet the quota at hbo, and they had to give one to a girl every year. And I got it. I said to the head of the network, why did I get a special? And he said, because you're a girl and you're on series.

[Interviewer]

That was exactly what you were told.

[Kathy Griffin]

There was no hr.

[Interviewer]

There was no hr.

[Kathy Griffin]

You had to figure it out.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. And of course you're gonna take it.

[Kathy Griffin]

Of course.

[Interviewer]

So now help me understand this. First is Suddenly Susan, you're the second lowest paid person.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But still making quite a bit relative to.

[Kathy Griffin]

And I was the sidekick, which is my wheelhouse. And I was actually getting, like, nice reviews. So I kind of was. I was kind of living the dream on that show.

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes. So now, that must change you.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

You go from having no money to having a lot of money. It changes you.

[Interviewer]

All right, so how does it change you?

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, I will. I'm going to say something that's unpopular, but it just is my experience, and that's that I felt that the people around me changed when I got money. I didn't feel like I did. I still don't feel like I do. But I have always been very financially focused. I have no debt. I own my house outright. I'm worth about $50 million. And I say that because not enough women talk about that. We're supposed to be ashamed of that. But I worked really hard to earn every dollar of that. And that's a lot of dick jokes to get there. And I got a. And so I talk about that because I think, you know, the guys kind of get to flex or talk about it, or they help each other. They go, really? How'd you do it? And women, we tend to all be going for the same job, and so we're not as united as the guys are.

[Interviewer]

Fair, Fair. I appreciate that. I really do. But how does the circle then change around you at that point?

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, I started getting to know celebrities because they would either be a guest star and suddenly Susan. So you spend five days with somebody, and then sometimes a friendship would happen, or there were other shows on the lot. Like they were taping Friends two stages down, and you see the friends. And I was good friends with Lisa Kudrow, who played Phoebe. And so it was great to see Lisa and see her do well. And, you know, I tried to get in as much with that community as I could. And. And that's really how the concept of the D list started is I was on the list because I was on a show, but Brooke was A list. And I think the B list is probably a TV star, but at the time, there weren't as many TV people that did movies. C list was like more of a name than I was, you know. And then D list is where I come in, and that's my wheelhouse, and that's where I feel comfortable. And it probably started then.

[Interviewer]

All right.

[Kathy Griffin]

Because I feel like it's good to be on the list as an outsider looking in.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Why so?

[Kathy Griffin]

Because then as a comic, I get to tell you who's naughty and who's nice and lift up the veil and show you what's really going on.

[Interviewer]

So as a self qualified D lister.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Do you want to elevate? Do you want to go become CBA or no?

[Kathy Griffin]

I used to, but now I do.

[Interviewer]

I don't.

[Kathy Griffin]

Because the spotlight, which I've had on me in a global scandal, which we'll discuss, I have had the spotlight on me in a way that is negative. I have learned that the cliche there's no such thing as bad publicity is actually not true. There is such a thing. It can put you out of work for seven years. And so I used to aspire to do some list jumping to see B or A, but now I'm perfectly happy right here on the D list.

[Interviewer]

On the D list.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

It's like, I own this.

[Kathy Griffin]

I have enough. Like, I have. I'm touring, I'm back on the road, I'm back to work. And so I'm happy doing my thing. Right.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Okay. So now what I'm curious about is going back suddenly, Susan, HBO Special, which was like the equivalent of a Netflix special probably now.

[Kathy Griffin]

You know, I mean, I had a billboard on Sunset Strip. It was a big deal.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, massive. Massive. Do you remember the first bad press you got during that time?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, yeah. I used to laminate them and put them on my refrigerator. So I was always on the worst dress list, no matter what I wore to any red carpet. And I was always getting in trouble for something from my act. So all the tabloids would come see my act and they would say, you know, thankless Kathy Griffin talks smack about star Brooke Shields or whatever. And then they would show a beautiful picture of Brooke and then pictures me like the this. And, you know, it happens to this day and it's just part of it. But I did start getting in trouble pretty much the day I started doing standup.

[Interviewer]

The Day.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That's when you got bad press.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But that also must impact self esteem.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, yeah. I actually wanted to get off the worst dress list. I worked with a really a list stylist named Robert Verdi, who dressed me in the most beautiful outfits that I have to this day because nobody would loan me because, you know, I'm me. So I'm not going to help sell Michael Kors dresses. So I bought all my stuff. So now what I'm doing, you're going to love this. I'm repurposing all of it.

[Interviewer]

Smart.

[Kathy Griffin]

So I'm wearing dresses that I wore 20 years ago, and now I go vintage, Valentino, vintage.

[Interviewer]

And everyone's like, oh, my God.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. How did you find it? And I'm like, because I wore it to the Emmys in 2006.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kathy Griffin]

I remember on Suddenly Susan, the wardrobe person telling me to take like I was doing a fitting, and she was like, take it off. It doesn't fit. They don't make that in a six. And then I learned, oh, a six is considered fat in Hollywood. So then I starved myself and I got down to a size two.

[Interviewer]

You really did?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Just so that you could fit in

[Kathy Griffin]

the clothes and look better on TV.

[Interviewer]

Look better on TV, because the camera

[Kathy Griffin]

really does add 10 pounds. I learned that. That's true.

[Interviewer]

Okay. And then ultimately, to keep the part.

[Kathy Griffin]

To keep the part. Always to not get canned.

[Interviewer]

Okay. So here is a career, a job that you've always aspired to get. You now have reached a place that we could say many people will never reach.

[Kathy Griffin]

Agree. Right.

[Interviewer]

But then you start to have these trade offs.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. So some celebrities are starting to get mad at me because my act prior to getting on Suddenly Susan was really primarily about dating and my family. But once I started to enter the celebrity world and see what it's really like for myself, I just naturally thought, well, my act has always reflected whatever is going on in my life. And so things in the celebrity realm were happening, swirling around me that I just thought were funny. And that's how I started getting into kind of the niche part of storytelling that is very celebrity related.

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes. Do you recall the first story that you told about a celebrity that really got you in trouble?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. When I would do material about Brooke Shields, I kind of got in trouble from the show. And I think Brooke maybe didn't love it. Sometimes she didn't mind, and I think sometimes she did mind. And I didn't have a concept of what it was like to have the responsibility that Brooke did as a genuine role model. And so I have had many years experience of trying to talk an A lister off the ledge and say, no, no, I was just kidding. This is what I do. I'm a comedian. You know, you wouldn't be mad at Don Rickles, you know, who I looked up to and all this stuff. And so I just started not really being unapologetic, but I would have a conversation with someone that was in my attitude, and I would say to their face, well, I'm not going to take it out.

[Interviewer]

You're not going to take it out.

[Kathy Griffin]

And I do that to this day.

[Interviewer]

To this day. Let's talk about women in comedy for a second, because this is the stuff that we had Katherine Ryan on, and we started doing this research, and it really blew me away on the biases. According to a survey across the United states, this is 2026. Only 38% of comedians are women. Okay. Professional comedians. In 2011, a study found that in the US 89% of women and 94% of men think that men are funnier.

[Kathy Griffin]

I can finish that sentence for you. It's what I fight to this day. My number one obstacle in selling tickets is. Is quite simply my gender. And I'm just saying that as someone who's been on the road for decades, and I have asked my. I call my straight guy friends bros. So I've asked my bro friends, okay, if you guys are on a bros weekend, what are the chances that if you have a night off, you're gonna go see Chelsea Handler? And the most honest ones would say, I'll be honest. We're going to see Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle. Like, it wouldn't occur to us to buy tickets for Chelsea Handler. And I'd say, well, do you not like Chelsea? And they were like, oh, no, she's funny.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Kathy Griffin]

And so I realized that is a bias that is very much still alive and still there. So I. Well, I do a little bit in my show about chicks not being as funny. But think about the women in your life. Like, I'm sure you had either an aunt or a cousin that would crack you up more than any guy.

[Interviewer]

Hilarious.

[Kathy Griffin]

And I'd be like, okay, think of me like that. That I'm your obnoxious cousin. That cracks you up.

[Interviewer]

Yes. So in preparation for you coming, I started thinking about comedians where I have purchased tickets.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

To go see. And you are 100% correct.

[Kathy Griffin]

It's all guys. It's all I know.

[Interviewer]

All guys.

[Kathy Griffin]

I know.

[Interviewer]

And that's not saying that I don't consider women hilarious. Right. Including yourself.

[Kathy Griffin]

It's just an instinctive thing where if Chappelle's in town, you guys are going.

[Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Kathy Griffin]

It's an event, you're not gonna miss it. And yet that same demographic can say, I think Chelsea Handler is just as funny, or I think name any female comic, Joan Rivers is just as funny.

[Interviewer]

So how do we change this?

[Kathy Griffin]

We have to change it by just doing it. You know, every show I do, I think maybe, you know, there were a handful of guys here that came with their wives. Cause it was, you know, a present or a Valentine's Day gift or whatever. I do shows on Valentine's Day almost every year. And so I try to speak to them and try to get them to give me a chance. And when they do, they usually laugh.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. Are you finding that who goes to the shows? Because in the study. Right. Yeah, it's 89% of women. Women think men are funnier. So, like, this is an issue.

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, I have a really big gay following and I have a really big female following. And I'm always telling my representatives, agents, managers, don't think that that isn't a demo that you should take seriously. When you have the gay community buying tickets and a lot of women for Girls Night out buying tickets, that's a demo to take seriously. And that's what I would be saying in response to them saying, you haven't cracked the top ten touring artists yet.

[Interviewer]

It's a battle. Yeah, yeah, fair enough, Fair enough. Now, you still made income wise, you still did phenomenally well. Right? And even to go back to when you mentioned you're worth 50 million, that's not bad, right? It's not bad. Like I want to really give you this right here.

[Kathy Griffin]

And I have no debt, no mortgage, no nothing.

[Interviewer]

How so that we understand, how was that built? Was it predominantly built off touring?

[Kathy Griffin]

By brick. It was predominantly built from television and touring combination. When you have a TV show on, your ticket sales skyrocket. So I took advantage of every year that I was on a TV show, whether it was suddenly Susan or I had an MTV show called Kathy's so called Reality. Then after that I got my own show on Bravo, which is now Peacock, Kathy Griffin, My life on the D list. And I was touring like a beast at that time. So I'd be filming the D List, then I'd be going to Atlanta, do a double and then come back, film more the D List. Sometimes they would come with me. We're going to Phoenix I have a show in Phoenix. Sometimes we do a storyline around Phoenix and it was integrating those two worlds.

[Interviewer]

There you go.

[Kathy Griffin]

Just literally saving every penny.

[Interviewer]

Okay?

[Kathy Griffin]

Not buying Lamborghinis, not buying Rolexes, saving every penny, socking it away because my parents are depression parents. So they really drilled that into me. Use it up, wear it out, make it do. And I've always been a saver. This episode is brought to you by

[Interviewer]

Prime Obsession is in session.

[Kathy Griffin]

And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus Elle every year after the Love Hypothesis, Sterling point and more slow burns, second chances chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. We all have that dream trip we've been wishing we could go on. But too often life or usually price gets in the way. That's why Priceline is here to help you turn your dream trip into reality. With up to 60% off hotel and up to 50% off flights, you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip, book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit priceline.com and book your next trip today. Go to your happy price Priceline.

[Interviewer]

Can anyone tell me why roaming fees are always so expensive? I feel like every time I get back from traveling overseas I'm hit with a jaw dropping phone bill. It's actually why I'm excited to try our new partner Saily. An ESIM app that gives you a safe and secure data connection anytime you travel and most importantly, without any expensive roaming charges. Now quite a few of my team used Saili during our last trip to LA and all accounts were that it was reliable and easy to set up. Saily is available in over 200 destinations and it comes with built in security features like web protection and ad blockers. The stuff you don't typically think about. But actually when you're traveling it's really important to keep your data protected. But the part that really pulls me in is that I can change my online location to the uk. So even if I'm somewhere else, any location blocked content is still accessible. To give it a try, download Saily from the app Store or scan the QR code on the screen. And if you want 15% off your first purchase, make sure you use my code. WNTT at checkout. Details are in the episode description. Just a heads up, this next part includes discussion of suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we've included resources in the show. Notes, please take care while watching. All right, so then 2017, just to set the. The context for 2017 is I've just been canned. You've just been can.

[Kathy Griffin]

But I just bought a giant house in Bel Air because I thought I'm gonna be in production on something in my house. So I made my house into like a mini set.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

Cause I thought, something's coming where I'm gonna need room and real estate. Cause I had done a reality show at my house, and I was like, okay, get a house that you could do a TV show in.

[Interviewer]

All right, so also January 2017, Trump has just become President of the United States.

[Kathy Griffin]

And remember, I know Donald Trump. So I don't just know him from when he was on Suddenly Susan. I mean, that guy would go to the opening of an envelope. I would see him in New York all the time. Joan Rivers was friends with his sister in law, Blaine. And I mean, there was everything from like a roast for Larry King where I sat next to Donald for like four hours. And when you're just sitting next to them on the dais. Cause he was doing a roast and I was doing a roast. You know, I couldn't believe the stupid shit coming out of his mouth. He was just next to me. And. And I've always known he was a buffoon, but I thought he was a harmless buffoon. But I would run into him at press events all the time because we both worked for NBC Universal.

[Interviewer]

All right, so you knew him. He knew you.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

He hired me to be on the Apprentice as part of a challenge one time. Paid me 50k. Yeah. Really called me, and he goes, I want you to come to my golf course in Bedminster. And I'm like, donald, you offered me 10k. I'm not coming for 10k. And then he goes, what's your number? And I go, my number's 50. And he did it. Cause like any bully, he just backs down. And so he caved. And I went out and I did it because I was hosting a charity event as part of a challenge. I was not a contestant on the Apprentice.

[Interviewer]

This is Celebrity Apprentice maybe?

[Kathy Griffin]

No, this was the Civilian Apprentice. So I didn't even know the person that I was playing for. And I did the gig because I was the host and they were putting on a charity event and the headliner was Liza Bonelli. So if I get to spend the day with Liza Benelli, that's a win. I'm going to freaking Bedminster. Yeah, I wouldn't know but, yeah, for free.

[Interviewer]

So would you consider yourself and Donald Trump, prior to 2017, to be four friends?

[Kathy Griffin]

Friendly. Very cordial. Very cordial. Like I said, he called me. When I would walk into the room, he would go, oh, here she comes. Look out. She's gonna go for the hair. She's gonna go for the hair. Like, stuff like that. All right, all right.

[Interviewer]

So this is.

[Kathy Griffin]

I knew Ivanka, Don Jr. Eric. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

So isn't that crazy?

[Interviewer]

This is I.

[Kathy Griffin]

That I knew them.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Like, you know the family. Yeah, the family knows you.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. All right, so Ivanka, I call bagazana.

[Interviewer]

I mean, allegedly.

[Kathy Griffin]

Allegedly.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Allegedly. Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

I'm just saying talking to her is like talking to a bag of Xanax.

[Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Kathy Griffin]

Not a lot of energy.

[Interviewer]

Not a lot going on.

[Kathy Griffin]

No.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Okay. So you really know them.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you know them. So 2017, Donald Trump becomes the President of the United States, which is immediately.

[Kathy Griffin]

Which is. Just. Let me just take a minute.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

Let me just. Because this is a UK show.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

Let me just say to all of the uk, I'm so sorry that we did that. I don't even know how it happened. I don't even know if he won in a free and fair election. I'll put on my tinfoil hat right now. I don't care. But, yeah, he was never supposed to be the president.

[Interviewer]

I was here in 2017. It was a year before I moved to the UK.

[Kathy Griffin]

Hillary was supposed to win in a landslide.

[Interviewer]

I remember that night. The night wasn't the most surreal night.

[Kathy Griffin]

It was.

[Interviewer]

It was like. I think SNL Saturday Night Live did a great spoof around this. There was celebration, the je.

[Kathy Griffin]

The Javits center, and then the Javits center, the party, and then the. I'm going home without making a statement. I mean, I was sobbing, I was crying.

[Interviewer]

It was. I think it was one of those nights where the US Stood still for many.

[Kathy Griffin]

It was so bad for our team, meaning the Democratic Party and anyone progressive and liberal like myself.

[Interviewer]

So that was. That was. Yeah, that's 2016. Right. But January he's brought into office also, we have. This is followed very quickly by the Women's March, which was the largest protest in the United States history challenging the administration's stance around gender equality and civil rights.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

All right.

[Kathy Griffin]

Which I attended and spoke at.

[Interviewer]

You attended and spoke at?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So, Kathy, what happened after that moment?

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, first of all, based on my own knowledge of Donald, I knew he wasn't qualified to. To be dog catcher. And so I felt like I Was on a little bit of a mission to try to convince anyone that just based on my own personal experiences with him. He's just not a very bright guy. He's a lot of pomp and circumstance, and he has a larger than life personality.

[Interviewer]

Can I ask even there. But you were friendly with him, so did you ever try to talk to him, call him, communicate with him?

[Kathy Griffin]

No, because by then. And when he came down the escalator and said, the Mexicans are rapists, I was like, oh, no, he's got dementia now. Like, he's not just dumb Donald. He's crazy. He's lost his mind. And then he started getting in bed with a lot of the far right characters, Fox News, and holding rallies even after he had won. I mean, all this stuff is unprecedented. And so I just started. Started kind of looking around thinking, okay, America, we're gonna fix this somehow, right? I mean, we're gonna get this guy to resign like we did with Richard Nixon. Right? And you Republicans are gonna take a stand against this. Right. And I was wrong.

[Interviewer]

Didn't happen.

[Kathy Griffin]

The cheese stood alone.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my God.

[Kathy Griffin]

I know.

[Interviewer]

So now how does the photo. Because the photo was the touch point.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, my God. It was seismic.

[Interviewer]

It was like, so how does it. The photo. Where is the photo taken?

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay, so I was between gigs, and so I thought, why don't I do a wacky photo shoot? And so I found a photographer that would do it for free. And we did like four setups. One of them was me spoofing Kim Kardashian. So I was wearing this, like, sexy rubber bikini and sticking out my butt and trying to be like Kim, who, by the way, was my next door neighbor. My next door neighbors were Kim and Kanye for two years. It was heaven. Oh, absolute comedy heaven.

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah, comedy heaven.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, thank you, Lord. And so to this day, my best neighbors. Anyway, so I took a picture as Kim. I think I took a one shot as like a 50s Tradwife Housewife type of thing.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

And then, you know, I said, well, I should take some kind of a statement photo about Donald. I don't think people are getting how dangerous he is. And then I was just spitballing with the photographer and whoever else was around, hair and makeup people. And then I said to my assistant, will you go get a Donald Halloween mask? And I can put it on one of my wig heads and if you guys can photoshop out the wig head holder, then the mask won't fold. And so then. Then it became. All right. He had recently said about that Stupid Megyn Kelly that there was blood coming out of her.

[Interviewer]

Tell me how you really feel about it.

[Kathy Griffin]

Anyway, so she had moderated a debate, and even though I don't like Megan Kelly, I didn't like it when Donald later on said there was blood coming out of her eyes. Blood coming out of her wherever. Like, is that a menstruation reference? I don't even know. But I remember thinking, let's make blood come out of his wherever and see if he likes it. And so then I had the idea to put ketchup all over the head and make it look like Perseus and Medusa, the famous statue, which I should have done a side by side of a picture of that sculpture, by the way. I think that would have changed the narrative a little.

[Interviewer]

It would have changed the context.

[Kathy Griffin]

Absolutely. You know who told me that? Hillary fucking Clinton.

[Interviewer]

Are you serious?

[Kathy Griffin]

Not even kidding. She goes, I thought the picture was a spoof of Medusa and Perseus. And I was like, why did I think of that? I was like, oh, cause you're smart enough to be the president and you're supposed to be.

[Interviewer]

She should have told you.

[Kathy Griffin]

I know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, she should. Although, let me ask you this. Do you now regret that? Would you go back in that moment and change anything?

[Kathy Griffin]

No. The only thing I regret is for one day, I apologize. I had a press conference and I was a wreck, and I hadn't had sleep and I was crying and I was a wreck. And I was asking the press to spread the word that we have to take in how dangerous this guy is, that I may have offended you with my photo, but still keep the narrative that this guy doesn't know how to be president. He's running our country into the ground like I've never seen in my lifetime. And nobody's coming to make it better. So I thought that there would be a groundswell of support around me and that Hollywood would back me up and women would back me up and everyone would back me up, and the picture would be a statement that would live on. But everybody abandoned me, literally. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Let's step by step this.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, not everybody. I'm exaggerating, but I'd say I lost about 75% of my friends for good.

[Interviewer]

That's significant.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. I had someone say, I was gonna produce a project with you, but you went and got yourself indicted.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

So I was. People were saying that to my face. I was having United States senators calling me, saying, what have you done? You're the worst thing to happen to the Democratic Party. And then the White House pushed out the narrative that I was literally a member of isis. So the White House pushed it out as a meme. And I know this from a foia, which is a Freedom of Information Act. Yes. So I got my foia, although it's heavily redacted to this day. But two government agencies put me under investigation immediately because they were trying to spin a narrative that, number one, I was serious about trying to kill Donald. And number two, that I was the queen of isis.

[Interviewer]

That you were the queen of isis.

[Kathy Griffin]

The queen of isis and the new face of isis. And that American troops would be beheaded in my name. And that they would be making videos saying, this one's for you, Kathy Griffith.

[Interviewer]

Okay, how did the photo then get to tmz?

[Kathy Griffin]

I think the photographer was dumb enough to sell it to them. He probably sold it for 25 bucks.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my God.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So after the photo is taken, you're happy with what's happened?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, I thought nothing of it. I wasn't one bit afraid. I thought, this picture will live on a gay blog for two days. That's it. And then it'll just disappear where nobody will care.

[Interviewer]

So the photographer, you think, then sells it to tmz. Yeah, TMZ then posts the photo. And then. Take me through what happens from your perspective.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay. So the phone starts ringing, and one thing I learned was members of the press somehow can get my cell phone. So I don't know if I've had the cell phone number too long or I'm just too approachable, but I started getting calls on my personal cell from the New York Times, New York Magazine, the New Yorker, Atlantic, every publication and TV show you can think. And they were asking for interviews in a way that I knew wasn't good. It was like, we want to be the first one to have you talk about the disaster, or do you want to come on the show or talk to us and clear your name in light of the fact that you're the new face of isis? So the media, they bought that narrative as well, which is still shocking to me. Still shocking. You know, my old buddy Anderson Cooper issued a tweet right away saying, he doesn't stand by me. And whatever he called me. And, you know, that hurt so bad because he was my friend, and I loved him. And I thought, as an experienced journalist, he's got to understand that nothing bad is going to come from that picture. No one's going to get beheaded because of a silly Kathy Griffin picture. And of course, no one did. But the media really bought it, coming directly from the Oval Office, which is what I found in my Freedom of Information Act.

[Interviewer]

So. So. So now I'm beginning to see how. In that Anderson example, and then I

[Kathy Griffin]

was on the ticker on cnn.

[Interviewer]

Yes. Yes. And weren't you hosting the New Year's Eve?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, I did that for 10 years. I told you, you were great.

[Interviewer]

You were exceptional.

[Kathy Griffin]

It was fun. I loved it. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And so you started losing jobs.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. Well, I was then on the no Fly List. You're on the no Fly List. Then I was on the Interpol list, which is the international version of the no Fly List. And then I was on the terror watch list, which is called the Five Eyes list.

[Interviewer]

Did you have to then get security?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. I spent a lot of money on this whole thing.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

But I have no regrets.

[Interviewer]

You have no regrets?

[Kathy Griffin]

No. I would do it again.

[Interviewer]

How much did you spend defending yourself?

[Kathy Griffin]

Probably about $3 million.

[Interviewer]

And that went to protect security.

[Kathy Griffin]

And lawyers.

[Interviewer]

And lawyers.

[Kathy Griffin]

I had to really lawyer up because they wanted to charge me with the crime of conspiracy to assassinate the President of the United States, which holds a lifetime sentence. And they would call my lawyers daily, seeing if I would go into the federal building where they could get a shot from a helicopter of me in the plastic handcuffs.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Did you believe that you could actually get apprehended?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And spend your life in prison?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes. I mean, the hatred coming toward me from the President himself and cabinet members was massive.

[Interviewer]

Did you have anyone come to your defense?

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, my lawyers are excellent. And I have, you know, probably four different firms I work with, and they all love me because I'm a very good client. I'm always in trouble, and I always pay on time. And I consider myself to be a patriot because I've performed for the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and Kuwait and Uzbekistan, and I definitely lost the troops that day. They did not enjoy that picture. Did not like the artistry one bit. And a lot of people are still really, really mad about that picture.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

And so I had people that were in my life as friends simply call me and say, I just can't be associated with you. Like Anderson did.

[Interviewer]

Like Anderson, yes. Have you ever spoken with Anderson since?

[Kathy Griffin]

No. That's something I know.

[Interviewer]

So I could see how this impacts your entire life.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Your career, your friendships. How does it impact your mental health?

[Kathy Griffin]

It was crazy because I had so much paparazzi waiting for me to go anywhere. I felt like I couldn't leave my house safely. Going around town with security is not fun for Somebody like me, because, like I said, I'm happy to be on the D list. It's not really a life I'm comfortable with. And getting visits from the feds that were once trying to prosecute me, but also had to do their duty as FBI agents and tell me when there was a credible death threat. So the FBI was showing up at my house, like, once a week to tell me about what they deemed to be credible threats. And I had three piles. I had, like, credible threats, maybe credible threats, harmless threats. And so I had to take in. And they had to try to keep track of the physical mail I was getting, because people still write physical letters. And also the online threats, which were, of course.

[Interviewer]

And if it's a. I guess if it's a credible threat, you then have to figure out.

[Kathy Griffin]

They have to tell you what it is. They can tell you a little bit. But then they always say, well, we're in the middle of an investigation. So, like, there was a guy that had a list of people he was going to kill. He was called the shoe bomber. And we had to take our shoes off for airplanes because one time a guy put a bomb in the sole of his freaking seat. And that guy had a list of people he was going to kill. And I was on that list. So the FBI had to come over and be like, okay, you're on the shoebombers list. Which means all of his fans, because he's so deep in MAGA world, they're willing to do the dirty work for him now that he got caught.

[Interviewer]

So that inspires other people to want to take your life.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, they were worried about copycats.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Okay. I can't imagine. And how you even fall asleep. Like, how do you even eat cereal? Like, how do you. Yeah, how do you exist?

[Kathy Griffin]

You don't. I remember that day. This is really weird. That day, I had planned a girls dinner, and I was crying all day and in my pajamas and probably hadn't taken a shower or anything. And it was just fielding phone calls and lawyering up. And yet I kept my dinner date. And guess who came over? Kris Jenner. Kris Jenner came over, and she brought Rita Wilson and Melanie Griffith. And they comforted me, and they were there for me. And, you know, Chris was so funny. Cause she's, like, putting on lipstick, going, oh, just apologize. I tell my kids to apologize all the time. And so I thought, oh, if I apologize, it'll go away. And then Melanie Griffith goes, I think tomorrow you should do Pence's head. And I'm Like, Melanie, you're not helping. And so they were trying to keep me laughing and. And they kept me going that first night.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I see that. You needed them.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You needed them.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. And they showed up. They weren't afraid to walk in the house.

[Interviewer]

Yes. Because you're right. The paparazzi were there. So by them walking in, they're signaling.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. We don't think she's a member of isis.

[Interviewer]

Look at that.

[Kathy Griffin]

We don't think she's trying to kill anybody.

[Interviewer]

Look at that. Look at that. So now, Kathy, we can go as far or light on the subject as you want. Want. But then the turmoil internally continued for you.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. So I then became addicted to prescription pills. That's how I dealt with it. So when you ask, how did I sleep? I didn't. And so that was my life for about two to three years. And I didn't know it could get out of control because I thought, well, these are prescribed. And then I tried to take my life, life, and I took like 100 pills. And all that happened was I fell down my own staircase. And so I had all these bruises and lacerations. And then one of my doctors said, you should come in for an X ray to see if he broke any bones. And when I went in, they were like, and we're going to keep you for three days. And I was on a 5150 psych hold for three days. Lockdown.

[Interviewer]

Lockdown. Which is where they don't allow you. Yeah, you keep. They keep you in this, like, war to evaluate you, see if you will harm yourself.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. And I. Because I'm legit crazy. Like, a lot of comics are like, I'm crazy. No, no. I have papers to prove it. I'm really crazy.

[Interviewer]

You do have the papers. You do have the papers. But we could spend a second on you wanting. You said to take your life. And you tried to. You've had such a glorious life.

[Kathy Griffin]

Right.

[Interviewer]

And then the two years were hell yeah. For you.

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, I also was the. Out of work is what got to me internally. Just. I was so used to either being on a TV show or being on the road that I didn't know what to do with myself all day. I was like, who am I if I'm not being Kathy Griffin and making you guys laugh? And so that is my identity. You know, a lot of people say your career should not be your identity. I don't feel that way. I love my career so much that they're very intermingled. And also, I was the most hated Woman in America. I know that sounds hyperbolic, but it really was insane.

[Interviewer]

Yes. But also, too. You say America, but that made you a global figure.

[Kathy Griffin]

So luckily, I had a very good agent at the time, and he said, guess what? You can sell overseas really well, because outside of America, they think you're a hero. And so I got to play everywhere from Singapore to Reykjavik, all because of that picture.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you started. So can we go back to this? This is wild to say. Kathy, let's go back to the psych ward. You in the psych ward. You come out.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Then how long do we go before you're playing?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, no, I was playing shows right after the picture. Not right after, but like, three months after the picture. I was playing Europe.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my goodness. So you were going to. Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And selling out.

[Kathy Griffin]

Shows. Selling out. And people were holding signs, and I became the lady from the head picture and like I said, recognized globally because of that photo. And people wanted to stop me on the street and have me pose where I hold their head. And it was wild. To go viral in that way. Was really wild.

[Interviewer]

It's. Wow. It's.

[Kathy Griffin]

It was. It was the best thing that happened in my career. But it also makes my stomach sink to kind of think about going through it.

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes. And to have lost the love from home.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. That seems to be the most painful. Yeah, yeah. Family. How did family show up for you during that time?

[Kathy Griffin]

My mom was amazing. My dad had already passed, and my mom. Mom just hates Trump and hates everything he's about. And so when he came for her daughter, she really stepped up, and she was coming to my house almost daily. And that gave me something to do to feel like I was looking after Maggie, you know? And I did have some friends that came through. Like, Aubrey Plaza literally brought a casserole to my house. And that meant so much because once again, she was walking in the door like, I don't care who sees me. She's my friend. And I did have a handful of people show up. And like, those girls coming over that night.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

There was never more heat on me than that night. And they were like, oh, yeah, dinner's still on. And so I had to learn how to make new friendships at my age, which was a challenge. But now I figured it out.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I could see that you have. There's a clique of girls who love you, and I love them and loves you, and on that, I have a little support. Oh, no, it's not.

[Kathy Griffin]

It's not bad. This is good.

[Interviewer]

I want you to take a look at this, and if you could read that out loud for us.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay. Kathy is on the envelope. Oh, my God. All right. It's a picture of me with Terry Hatcher from Desperate Housewives, and she's all over social media. She's amazing. Dear Kathy, I love your commitment to being you, to reinvention, to inclusivity, and your work ethic. Your strength is inspiring, and I'm grateful to be included in your community of women and men who want to keep thriving and striving to make this world and our lives better every day. Love, Terri. Yes. I mean, and she was on an ABC show under a lot of scrutiny. And so I became friends with Hatcher after the picture.

[Interviewer]

After I realized that it was after picture.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

How did that happen after the picture?

[Kathy Griffin]

Because I learned two things. Number one, when I got sober, too. When I got sober, I joined aa, so I have a lot of friends from aa, and that's a community in itself. And I was like, okay, good. That's a really. They have a system in place to kind of make friends. And that was great. And then I just started reaching out to people via old school Twitter when you could DM somebody and you knew that it was actually them. And so I had been at Warner Brothers when Hatcher was doing the show Lois and Clark, and I thought, oh, my God, she survived Dean Cain, who now wants to be an ICE agent, by the way. He's like on Fox doing ice training videos. That's how much he's lost his mind. So I thought, I want to reach out to Terry Hatcher because she's a survivor. She survived that guy, and she had to carry that show. And she was the first star on Desperate Housewives, so they built the show around her. And she's been through some shit. So I just started reaching out to women and gay folks that have just been through some shit. And that's where I started trying to rebuild and start new friendships.

[Interviewer]

Look at that. Now, you just mentioned when you got sober.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. Cause the pills, they still call it sober, even though I've never had a drink in my life to this day.

[Interviewer]

It was the pills. So when you. Okay, so this makes sense. So you became healthier.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Started reaching out, making friends. But still, that was a six to seven year period.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Would you say that? So there was the attempt to cancel you.

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, they canceled me.

[Interviewer]

You were canceled?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, yeah, they canceled me real good.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

They canceled the shit out of me. I mean, I was out of work for seven years.

[Interviewer]

For seven years.

[Kathy Griffin]

Nobody would hire.

[Interviewer]

Do you believe you're still canceled?

[Kathy Griffin]

I think I might be uncanceled or starting to get uncanceled now. There's just a sea change. You know, I'm on the social media app called Threads. It's owned by Meta, which I hate. But I get a lot of people there saying, we were wrong about the picture. Now we get it. Now we see how dangerous he is. Now we see that you had to be as extreme as you were. And I've had people say that to me in particular since he started the second administration.

[Interviewer]

How do you think history is going to look back at you in that photo?

[Kathy Griffin]

I don't know. I can only imagine. I can only imagine. I can't. I have a feeling that when I croak, then people will be nicer. Like, I watched it happen with Joan Rivers, because when she was alive, a lot of celebrities were like, she's mean. She called me out on Fashion Police. But then the day she passed away, which was very unexpected, if you remember, then everyone is like, oh, my God, she's.

[Interviewer]

She's an icon.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, she's. We lost one of our greats.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kathy Griffin]

And so if, if I get anything resembling that, I think it'll be after I croak.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

But not before I, I, I, I would say that, yeah, there's still, there's still a feeling of fear around me, I think, on the part of buyers. I call them buyers.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

Anybody that would hire me.

[Interviewer]

Hollywood television.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But tour wise, you can still tour.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes. Thank God for the people. If it wasn't for John Q. Public and Jane Q. Public just putting down their money and buying tickets, I would still be canceled. So people uncanceled me.

[Interviewer]

So today, as you sit here in this beautiful yogi position.

[Kathy Griffin]

I know, right?

[Interviewer]

I can't believe you've been sitting there so long in that perfect position.

[Kathy Griffin]

I'm sweating. Thanks so much, everybody. I'm sorry, sorry, sorry. Okay.

[Interviewer]

How are you doing that? How do you feel about your mental health today?

[Kathy Griffin]

I feel good about my mental health. I have been diagnosed with complex ptsd. And I know that's something that we usually say for combat veterans, but I've had everybody tell me that. I have it, from my shrink to my oncologist. Survived cancer. I had lung cancer. I have only half a lung on my left side. You have to get that. I had lung cancer even though I never smoked. So just surviving a bunch of stuff.

[Interviewer]

And even complex ptsd. If we spend a second. Yeah. How does that distinguish itself?

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, like Right now I'm having a panic attack, and so I'm sweating profusely, even though in my heart I'm not nervous and you couldn't be nicer, but something is telling me I'm in fight or flight mode right now.

[Interviewer]

Right now?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Really? So you're having a panic attack now?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, I can't have help it, but I'm still functional. Like, there was a time when then I couldn't be functional. So I'm sweating profusely, but I can still talk to you.

[Interviewer]

Can I ask and you could tell me to stop? Was it the conversation that we just had?

[Kathy Griffin]

It's seeing the lights. It's knowing that one person could not like something that I say today in this room and then go on Reddit and then start a whole group of people, and then maybe it gets blown out of proportion or whatever and it could all happen again.

[Interviewer]

I see it, I see it, and I see how that connects with the complex pieces.

[Kathy Griffin]

Cause you never know. Remember, I just did a little photo shoot at my house and it blew up. So everywhere I go, I don't know if it's gonna happen again.

[Interviewer]

So you're on edge.

[Kathy Griffin]

I'm on edge. And yet I still keep doing it. You know, like, I posted something where when I had shows last weekend, I had the audience chant, fuck ice. Fuck ice. Fuck ice. And so I chose to. Somebody caught video of it, and so I chose to put that video on all my social media. And I just waited. I thought, oh, here we go. But the response was positive.

[Interviewer]

Yes. And this is where I think, I feel, this is just my little opinion is that I feel that the day and age that we're at now, I think that there's going to be more and more and more reception for you.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, from your mouth to God's ears.

[Interviewer]

Yes. And for your voice. That's how I feel. And that's my interpretation When I talk to people. For example, I'll always seed the guests who are coming with. My friends and family right now. This is my community. But I'll say, yeah, we got Kathy. It's like, oh, my gosh, Kathy Griffin's coming in. It's like, so there's a lean in, there's an excitement, and I would imagine that's going to continue.

[Kathy Griffin]

If it does, then I really won. I mean, I do feel like I prevailed against the Department of Justice and the President of the United States because they never charged me. I was interrogated under oath. I passed the interrogation. They kept trying to get evidence that I had the means and the intent to actually go kill Donald. So I went through that full investigation, and I have a letter from the federal government saying, you are officially exonerated. So that is a framer, by the way, and it's so crazy to have that. But the fact that I got through all that, I think, is why people are receptive to me now is I think they also saw me survive addiction and cancer and divorce. And I talk about all of it in my shows or when I do interviews. And so now I really enjoy connecting with my audience.

[Interviewer]

You said you survived divorce as well.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

We have to talk about. I mean, relationships. This is my. That hurt the worst divorce.

[Kathy Griffin]

I didn't think I'd ever come back from that one.

[Interviewer]

More than.

[Kathy Griffin]

More than the scandal.

[Interviewer]

More than the scandal. Yeah.

[Kathy Griffin]

So I was down for the count.

[Interviewer]

I was looking at your relationships, Kathy. Honestly, I'm blown away with your relationship resume. Yeah. You have a relationship resume.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes, I do.

[Interviewer]

I mean, even some of the dating, like, we talked about. Quentin Tarantina, I didn't know you dated Conan o'. Brien.

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, Conan and I went on one date where Conan didn't know it was a date, but I thought it was a date. And then the check came, and then he was like, do you want to split the check? Which was a pizza and Diet Coke, by the way. And I was like, oh, sure. And so I thought I had a date with Conan, but Conan was just going to write his. And we wrote a sketch together for the Groundlings. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my gosh. I mean, Steve Wozniak.

[Kathy Griffin]

Steve Wozniak.

[Interviewer]

That was a shocker.

[Kathy Griffin]

Proposed to me.

[Interviewer]

Are you serious?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, via email. Look, I love Steve. I'm friends with his wife Janet. He's a great guy, you know, dating the guy that invented Apple, the founder of Apple was Steve Jobs. Like I said, I have a thing for excellence.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

So Woz was a horrible boyfriend. He would just take me to Denny's and, like.

[Interviewer]

No, he didn't.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes, he did. Billions of dollars takes me to Denny's, but, you know, Bob's a big boy. But he does have a beautiful mind.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

And he is very generous about talking about the early days of Apple and what it was like to literally be in that garage doing the first Home Mac.

[Interviewer]

Yes. So he proposed via email. Do you respond. No. Via email, or what do you do?

[Kathy Griffin]

I said, send the jet. I go, if you want to date me, send the jet. And he's like a robot. He's like, I do not use private jets. I Fly commercial.

[Interviewer]

You didn't get the jet?

[Kathy Griffin]

No.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kathy Griffin]

Now I'm the one who flies the jet.

[Interviewer]

That's right. You do do dating younger as well.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, I haven't been asked out by a guy my age in like 30 years. Always guys. Much younger.

[Interviewer]

Much younger. How much younger?

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, my Last husband was 18 years younger than I am. And I would say if I'm 65 now. I had some dates recently and the oldest one was 47.

[Interviewer]

The oldest was 47?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. Okay, more like 45 year olds like me.

[Interviewer]

What about the younger? The youngest?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, I did have an affair of the heart with a 23 year old, which I wrote an essay about for my substack. And it was something I wanted to put out there because I feel that because of ageism and sexism, there's this kind of myth out there that at a certain age you don't desire sex anymore, or you can't fall in love anymore, or you can't have great sex. And so I had a short but meaningful affair of the heart is what I call it. And it was with a guy that was much younger. And he was such a great guy.

[Interviewer]

He's such a great. Yeah, you know, so we had a. Do you know Cindy Gallup? She has the company. She was a tech exec. Also she has make love, not porn. Oh, is. Yes, is the.

[Kathy Griffin]

I don't know who she is. Sorry.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So Cindy is in her 60s and

[Kathy Griffin]

she still getting laid.

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah.

[Kathy Griffin]

That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's the message.

[Interviewer]

And she exclusively dates younger men.

[Kathy Griffin]

I don't mean to exclusively date younger men. I'm just telling you that's who asked me out.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

And I went on the dating apps like a not celebrity. I went on four dating apps. One of them was called Elite Singles.

[Interviewer]

Elite Singles, yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

And I was on Hinge and Bumble and Raya. All right. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And you as you as me.

[Kathy Griffin]

So you get to know everything about me and then I gotta make sure you're not catfishing me. I mean, the disadvantage, the disparity was there. Cause I gotta kind of take these guys at face value. And with me you can like look up anything about me on the Internet or anything.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

And so. But it was fun going on dates.

[Interviewer]

Yes, I could see it. So you're single now?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

All right. Do you. But you're open.

[Kathy Griffin]

I'm open.

[Interviewer]

But it's hard to meet people.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, it's. Look, I'm still a 65 year old female comic. Most guys don't picture themselves in the back of a theater laughing at their wife while she is standing on stage with a microphone being vulgar. And that's what I do night after night, city after city. And I just think straight guys aren't really wired that way quite yet. Yet. But I have hope for the future.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

And actually it makes me hopeful that younger guys ask me out because I think they didn't grow up with the same sexism as the guys my age.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. Absolutely agree with that. So you were open?

[Kathy Griffin]

A little bit open, yeah.

[Interviewer]

A little bit open, yeah.

[Kathy Griffin]

A little bit open.

[Interviewer]

A little bit. Which means you're right.

[Kathy Griffin]

Like I want to get laid. Don't get me wrong. Absolutely right. Don't these bitches that are walking around going, if I never have sex again, I won't miss it. Don't speak for for me. I'll miss it. I miss it now.

[Interviewer]

Okay, okay. Self esteem has shown up throughout this and I would imagine that's impacted. You talked about the nose job that you had earlier in your career.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, I call my new tour New Face, New tour.

[Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Kathy Griffin]

Because I had my third facelift. And let me tell you, I told this doctor to give me a good yank. I said, get back there, get a couple construction workers and just pull the skin until you can't and then snip it off. And so I talk about all of it.

[Interviewer]

Yes. All right. So this is the new tour. New face, new tour. Like literally, Literally.

[Kathy Griffin]

I say the doctor's name, I say he did. My friend Sia, the singer, and she had the best before and after pictures and she gave him an award publicly, so she's mentioned him. And so I went to this guy.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you look great. From. I will say, like, it's not the cameras. Like, you look good.

[Kathy Griffin]

He did a good job. I think he yanked. He yanked and I got a neck pull. I had the neck of a 13 year old. They just yanked it.

[Interviewer]

They just yanked it. And then what do they do?

[Kathy Griffin]

Do they snip it off and sew

[Interviewer]

you up and sew?

[Kathy Griffin]

Really?

[Interviewer]

Really. Is this the same person that your friend that Kris Jenner went to too?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, I can't afford Kris guy. Kris's guy is a million a face. Mine was 218,000. Can you imagine?

[Interviewer]

Are you serious?

[Kathy Griffin]

218. Almost a quarter of a million dollars on my facelift. I know. How crazy is that?

[Interviewer]

You spent a quarter of a million? Yes, but Chris spent a million. A million.

[Kathy Griffin]

Well, she got hers comped. I'm Sure. I would think hers was free because.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah. And she looks great. I'm not gonna lie.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah, she looks good. Yeah, she looks good.

[Kathy Griffin]

She looks like Kim's daughter. She's really. The clock has gone back for her.

[Interviewer]

The clock. When you were. Did you live next to her as well?

[Kathy Griffin]

No, I lived next to Kim and Kyle. Okay.

[Interviewer]

But they didn't. There wasn't. It wasn't like a. Oh, Chris came

[Kathy Griffin]

over all the time. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay. What was. I mean, living next to them, what was.

[Kathy Griffin]

It was a dream.

[Interviewer]

You must have, because I know you've talked quite a lot about this.

[Kathy Griffin]

I do. I talk about them in my new special, which is on YouTube, called Kathy Griffin My Life on the PTSD List. And I talk about just what it was like to be their neighbor, because it was as surreal as you would imagine. They had just insane amounts of security, which, by the way, she really had my back during the picture thing. That's why I won't turn on her, because. And she might be a Republican now. I'm not sure. I don't even know if she knows what parties are. But anyway, when that picture scandal happened, she was there, and she would come over and I would say, you know, I got my security people, and now you have yours, and we should keep an eye on each other. And, you know, she was held up in Paris at gunpoint, and that was real. And he came over and we talked that out because I've been through my experiences and I've been held up at gunpoint twice. And so we talked that out and stuff. And Kanye's not a big talker, but they had just two kids at the time, and it was just great having them as neighbors.

[Interviewer]

Was he at that? So he had not run or announced running?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, no. He was doing the ranches in Montana or whatever.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Wyoming.

[Kathy Griffin]

Wyoming. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was doing that.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Wow.

[Kathy Griffin]

And he was still doing music. And he had not expressed his love for Donald Trump at that time.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Yeah. Especially.

[Kathy Griffin]

Which would have been awkward for me, the next door neighbor with the head. The head lady.

[Interviewer]

That would have been wild. That would have been wild. I know. Okay. Okay. So now if you look at self esteem today, where does it stand for you?

[Kathy Griffin]

It's like a graph that goes up or down?

[Interviewer]

Down.

[Kathy Griffin]

It's no middle. Either I feel really good about myself or I feel really shitty about myself, and I don't know why. All right, So I have good days where I'm like, okay, I'm winning in life, and then I have Other days where I'm like, oh, I'm the biggest loser.

[Interviewer]

Okay. The complex ptsd. What I do know about it is that PTSD is normally one incident that drives it. Complex PTSD is multiple incidents over a period of time. And you could see how others many traumatic events.

[Kathy Griffin]

The Trump picture. Cancer, addiction, divorce. Not working.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

To be hated at such a high level by so many people for so long, that was it. That's when it kind of kicked into high gear.

[Interviewer]

But the flip with the other side coin is that you have so many people who love you.

[Kathy Griffin]

It's amazing.

[Interviewer]

And speaking of this.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

I wanna show you this.

[Kathy Griffin]

Terry Hatcher loves me.

[Interviewer]

You got Terry.

[Kathy Griffin]

I mean, I got Hatcher.

[Interviewer]

You got me.

[Kathy Griffin]

You got me. I got you. I'm coming over.

[Interviewer]

I wanna show you some of these things.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

All right. So actually tell me who this is.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

And we're gonna play the how much they love you game.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

All right. So who is that?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, that's me and Kris Jenner.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

I love her. I don't love that she's besties with the Bezos, I gotta say that. But she's a good, kind person.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. She seemed to really have your back.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

All right.

[Kathy Griffin]

When she didn't have to, by the way. Yes, she didn't have to.

[Interviewer]

Yes. So now here's another one.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

Who's in this?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, okay. These are my good friends Sia, the singer from Chandelier and Titanium. And Jennifer Lewis from Black Ish and was an original harlot. And there we are just taking a silly picture. And I see these ladies all the time. Jennifer. And I just texted CE and I see each other once a week.

[Interviewer]

There you go. Yeah, there you go. See the love. The love is real.

[Kathy Griffin]

The love is real.

[Interviewer]

The love is real. This is actually. Could be my favorite photo.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

I don't know how. Who's in that photo?

[Kathy Griffin]

Tatum. Look, Tatum's a. All right. He's a dirty. He made his empire because he's hot and everybody wants to him. And I've known Tatum since he was a male dancer or whatever. And so I just know him through, like, the charity stuff. But I love him. Cause he takes a joke on the chin.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Kathy Griffin]

So I said, let's make it like we're cuddling.

[Interviewer]

It looked like you were cuddling, so you weren't really.

[Kathy Griffin]

He wants me so bad. Give me a break.

[Interviewer]

I think he does.

[Kathy Griffin]

He's gonna call this will do.

[Interviewer]

This is a moment that we didn't talk about. And I had seen you in this, but didn't know this was you.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, tell me.

[Interviewer]

Ready?

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, yeah. The real Slim Shady. So here I am manhandling Eminem. And so I was on Suddenly Susan at the time, and I was touring like a beast. And at first I said, no, because it was only 10k. And then the guy who did my hair said, no, this guy Eminem is really gonna be. Is really big. You should do it. And I was like, no, I've heard of him. But the song hadn't come out yet. And it was so old school that they had my assistant meet someone at a corner and give a cassette of just the part that I was to lip sync, which is. May I have your attention, please? May I have your attention, please, please? We're gonna have a problem here. And so I got to play the nurse, and I went up to the Director, who was Dr. Dre, and I said, what made you think of me for this role? And he goes, snoop said, you're funny. What about that? And then this one comes up to me and he goes, hi, I'm Marshall.

[Interviewer]

Marshall, the stories.

[Kathy Griffin]

Stories keep coming.

[Interviewer]

You know what I always say? A well lived life.

[Kathy Griffin]

That's what I'm saying.

[Interviewer]

Well lived life.

[Kathy Griffin]

No complaints.

[Interviewer]

No complaints. It's like the story.

[Kathy Griffin]

The stories of make you rich, and

[Interviewer]

then on top of it, you're rich. Like, you won. You won. So now, final question. This is the question everyone gets. Okay. Okay. You've had some incredible conversations in your life. When you think about the most memorable, who was it with? And what did you learn?

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay, you're not even gonna believe this. When I had a dinner party for my late friend Sidney Poitier, he comes to the house for dinner, and to get him talking about his iconic work was a difficult thing to do. He just wasn't. That's not how he talked. But if I could get him deep and if I could make him laugh long enough, I could get a good story out of him. And he told me about going to see Nelson Mandela in prison and what that experience was like. Like, and how he was going to play Mandela, and Mandela was making Sidney known. Like, okay, I'm going to talk to you and give you a little help for your research, but I need you to see this prison environment that I'm in, and I need you to understand what it means. And to be able to have had a conversation like that with the great Sidney Poitier is a conversation that will stay with me for absolutely insane. Right?

[Interviewer]

But there you go. Like, of course he's your friend.

[Kathy Griffin]

He loved me. He would go, young lady, you make me laugh. And I would go, sidney, put away your Medal of Freedom. I get it. You won the Medal of Freedom. Okay. Do you have to bring into every party and you would laugh?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, of course, of course. You know, Kathy, I will say this is. I was aware of you, but not this aware of you. And I would say that I believe that you are one of the most important voices of our time.

[Kathy Griffin]

Oh, my goodness.

[Interviewer]

No, truly, truly. And I believe that you're going to find that as we continue on through the years, more and more people will fully not just recognize it, but make you feel that.

[Kathy Griffin]

I hope so. I mean, I'm ready.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah, I love it.

[Interviewer]

Well, I will see you in London then.

[Kathy Griffin]

Okay, great. I can't wait.

[Interviewer]

All right, thank you, thank you, thank you. That was super. All right, so it was just mentioned out here, but I do have to repeat this is. Many people say, don't meet people who you admire or you look up to or who are idols. And she beat my expectation. Kathy is representation of how complex we are as humans. Here's someone with uber confidence, extreme trust in what she sees and who she is, but yet low value of her worth, which is poor self esteem. And this is reminiscent of so many of the public figures that we talk to. How the industry beats you down, down slowly. She's 65 years old, moved to LA at 18. Over 40 years of being in the industry, and that's over 40 years of being told, you're not good enough, you don't look good enough, you're too big. Change this. Over 40 years of this rejection. It takes a toll. When she said that she was having a panic attack. Attack in the interview. Right. Or that showed me how much weight rides on her and her mental health and how much of a warrior she is. You know, I would say a well lived life is not necessarily about how much money you have. I mean, I think we often hear that. But when you can sit back and reflect upon your life, life and all of these experiences, how you touched people's lives, how your presence created some change, that's a well lived life. You strike me as someone who was an early feminist.

[Kathy Griffin]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You aspire to work at Hooters?

[Kathy Griffin]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Catherine Ryan is a Canadian standup comedian and TV personality who has won over the hearts of the UK with her blunt delivery since 2012.

[Kathy Griffin]

Hooters was, interestingly, the place that I found the most empowerment. I got tired of competing in the bikini pageants, so I asked to host

[Interviewer]

the bikini pageants already. You could see that you were a nuisance for good.

[Kathy Griffin]

I like that.

[Interviewer]

The greatest comedians have come from a place of trauma. True or false?

[Kathy Griffin]

I think mic drop audiences are still completely unable to to receive comedy from a woman. If a man's not funny, he's not funny. But if I'm not funny, women aren't funny. Someone called actual Child Protective Services and I was investigated for. I don't know what they don't tell you.

[Interviewer]

Was there any moment where you believed she would be taken from you? A question that a lot of women face. I want to be a mom, but my partner sucks.

[Kathy Griffin]

What do you do if your biological legacy is impeded by the partner that you're with?

[Interviewer]

How do you make that decision? This is going to be the father of my child.

[Kathy Griffin]

In proximity, I guess it was the nearest closest to me. I think that if we really had true biological equality. Women. Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho. Look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you. And hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling. Ross, work your magic.