Kerry Katona: I’ve Not Told Anyone This… What Really Happened During The Show

Summary

Podcast Summary: We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson

Episode: Kerry Katona: I’ve Not Told Anyone This… What Really Happened During The Show

Date: April 7, 2026
Guest: Kerry Katona
Special Guest: Paolo
Theme: Vulnerability, Healing, Real Love, and Life Beyond Headlines

Episode Overview

In this emotionally candid and engaging conversation, Paul C. Brunson welcomes returning guest Kerry Katona, joined later by her partner Paolo, for a raw exploration about love, survival, healing, and living authentically. Kerry reflects on the overwhelming reaction to her previous “We Need To Talk” episodes, her complicated past, her journey to self-worth, the realities behind reality TV appearances, her unconventional new romance, mental health struggles, the power of vulnerability, and the fiercely authentic relationships that keep her anchored—including a powerful new love story with Paolo and her devotion to her children.

This episode, rich with humor, honesty, and self-acceptance, is a deep dive into how public figures are often misunderstood, the slow journey of personal growth, and how true connection can change everything—even after trauma.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Impact of the Previous Episode & Public Perception

• Kerry’s Overwhelming Emotional Response
  • Kerry reveals how emotionally overwhelming the response to her previous episode was, sharing gratitude for an outpouring of support, and surprise that her story is finally being heard with empathy.
  • "The story I told you, it's the same thing I've been telling for years. It's just like the cameras are now in focus and people are actually hearing it differently." (03:31)
• The Power of Long-form Conversation
  • Paul notes how the unfiltered, long-form format allows the audience to see a softer, more genuine side of Kerry, leading to a shift in public sentiment.
  • "People were able to see you unfiltered... It allows people to just go deep and express and be vulnerable and take us along this ride..." (05:46)
• Industry & Media Shifting
  • Kerry talks about feeling validated, even by reporters who once contributed to her negative press:
    • "It's so unbelievable, my life story, that they actually want to turn it into like a serious film. Like Tina Turner kind of thing." (07:20)

2. Struggles of Fame & Reinvention

• Shame and the Difficulty of Watching Herself
  • Kerry explains she refuses to watch her own deeply vulnerable interviews, as revisiting old pain remains difficult.
  • "I can't see myself be upset like that because it's hard...you just see this young Kerry...and you've not got any clue what's about to happen to you." (08:29)
• Owning Her Story
  • Kerry stresses the importance of owning her full life, including hardships and mistakes, for her growth and for helping others:
    • "Doesn't matter how many times you fail...if you fall down and you're looking up, you can get up. It made me who I am. I wouldn't change any of it." (10:48)
• Being an Example Despite the Judgement
  • Despite years of public shaming, Kerry now sees her worth reflected in those she inspires.

3. Relationships, Breakups & Healing

• The Ryan Breakup Revelation
  • Kerry opens up, for the first time publicly, about the end of her relationship with Ryan, revealing emotional neglect and eroded trust.
  • "I've never gone public with how it ended. But it was disgusting what happened...I wasn't happy for like four years in that relationship." (13:27)
• Authenticity in Reality TV
  • Kerry pulls back the curtain on the real motivations behind reality dating shows:
    • "Every celebrity that is on there is on there for exposure to the next job. That's what we do." (14:37)

4. The Love Story with Paolo

• Love on Reality TV, Expectations, and Surprises
  • Initial skepticism turns into real affection when Kerry meets Paolo during “Celebs Go Dating”, initially refusing to engage romantically for the cameras.
  • "I could tell straightaway he'd been in therapy...he'd worked on himself...I could feel it in my chest now. I was, like, really, really drawn to him." (16:38)
• Children as Catalysts for Connection
  • A pivotal moment: Kerry credits her daughter Heidi with urging her to pursue Paolo after filming, leading to their first real date and romance.
  • "It was my children...our DJ...my 11-year-old daughter going, 'Just let him come round.'"(19:03)
• Evolving Into True Partnership
  • Both discuss how being at the right stage personally was crucial; they’re now blending lives and families, facing the challenges of public life together.

Notable Quotes:

• "I've never received or felt love the way Paolo actually loves me. Honestly." (22:26)
• "He’s like a female version of me, but I’m better looking and funnier." (22:32)

Timestamps:

• [16:34]—Meeting Paolo and the shift from “not interested” to “instant connection”
• [19:03]—Heidi’s role in spurring Kerry to reach out for a second date

5. Blending Families & Building New Traditions

• Blending Families
  • Kerry and Paolo open up about integrating their seven children, bringing new energy, routines, and a genuine family feel.
  • "Seven kids. We had them all...how do you manage a blended family at that size?" (68:01)
• Italian Traditions and Connection
  • Paolo emphasizes traditional Sunday family gatherings as vital for communication amidst today’s tech-heavy world.

6. Mental Health & Overcoming Anxiety

• Anxiety, Physical Health, and Healing Practices
  • Kerry details severe anxiety manifesting in physical illnesses, including colitis, and how she found relief through breath work and emotional release.
  • "My anxiety was so bad...and since that emotional release, with breath work, my body was spasming...it was just a lot to carry..." (28:04)
• Healing the Old Narratives
  • Kerry reflects on inner child work and the challenge of letting someone else (Paolo) look after her, learning to be “interdependent.” (32:55–34:28)

7. The Celebrity & Parasoical Experience

• AI Twins and Parasocial Relationships
  • A humorous but serious reflection on how AI versions of herself (for OnlyFans, chat apps, etc.) can create blurred lines for fans—and genuine concern about safety and boundaries.
  • "They can get like proper involved with this person and follow me...they're gonna think they're in a real relationship." (45:58)
• Stalkers, Fame, and Resilience
  • Kerry shares past stalker experiences, but firmly refuses to live in fear or stop her hustle.

8. Friendship and Shared Life Experience with Katie Price

• A Candid Account
  • Kerry explains her unique friendship with Katie Price, how they are mirrors in some ways but remain different people, mutually supportive but not “besties.”
  • "We are very different people...but our lives are mirrored. No one understands like Kate what I've been through and vice versa." (38:08)
• Touring and Lifting Each Other Up
  • The execution of their joint tour, its impact on others (even those battling suicide ideation), and the heavy mental toll of performing vulnerability night after night.

Notable Quotes:

• "I never look down on anybody unless I'm helping them up." (37:15)

9. Hardships, Hope, and Parenting

• Letter from Daughter Heidi ([50:02])
  • Paul shares a letter from Heidi to Kerry, moving both to tears, highlighting the real legacy Kerry values most—her children’s love and respect.
  • "You are and always will be my hero...I hope to grow up to be just half the woman and mother you are." (Read by Paul, 50:02)
  • Kerry: "That's it for me. That's all I need is their approval...that's my legacy right there." (54:50)

10. Speaking on Marriage and Future Plans

• Marriage: Teasing, Fears, No Rush
  • Both express certainty about wanting to marry, but with humorous resistance from Kerry and insistence that the moment be on their terms for their families’ sake.
  • Paul: "Do you believe you two will get married?" Paolo: "Married, 100%." (83:00)
• Children and Mishaps
  • Candidly, the couple reveal, for the first time, two miscarriages—including one occurring during the filming of Celebs Go Dating finale.
  • "Not told anybody this...I miscarried." (89:07)
  • Both are open to more children if circumstances (especially health) allow.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Healing & Resilience:
  • "All lessons, not mistakes. If you keep doing it, then it’s a mistake...You just gotta learn from it." (11:49)
• On True Love:
  • "Everything is not black and white; it’s in color...she makes the picture colorful in more ways than one." —Paolo (79:02)
• On Audience Perception:
  • _"I’ve never had the public so invested in somebody I’m with. Ever." —Kerry (63:51)
• On Parenting as Legacy:
  • "My kids, that’s my mark on this world. That’s my legacy." (54:50)
• On Blended Family:
  • "Coming together, we could create a certain FC...you have seven children between the two of you. Christmas is great, wasn’t it? Seven kids. We had them all." (67:42–68:06)
• On Fame and Misconceptions:
  • "I was a little bit [of the car crash], but you own that as well...where Kerry is now...the media really love Kerry...it’s well received." —Paolo (62:34)

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

• 03:31 – Kerry on being finally heard differently, audience’s emotional reaction
• 13:27 – Details on Kerry’s unhappy relationship with Ryan
• 16:34 – Initial skepticism on Celebs Go Dating, meeting Paolo
• 19:03 – Heidi encourages Kerry to text Paolo, beginnings of romance
• 22:26 – Kerry on Paolo’s unique love
• 28:04 – Physical reactions to stress, breath work as healing
• 32:55–34:28 – On interdependence and letting herself be taken care of
• 37:15 – On lifting women, the purpose of her and Katie’s tour
• 50:02–54:50 – Letter from Heidi, family as true legacy
• 83:00 – Paul asks if they will get married
• 89:07 – Kerry shares about miscarriages, including while filming

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode is a heartfelt, unfiltered celebration of real-life struggle and growth, threaded with humor, warmth, and blunt honesty. Paul creates a safe space for Kerry to drop her guard, and together with Paolo, they showcase a story of genuine healing and connection.

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Final Takeaway

This episode stands out as a masterclass in vulnerability and personal transformation. With laughter and tears, Kerry Katona—supported by her partner Paolo—dispels myths, reclaims her narrative, and offers hope that it is possible not just to survive life's storms, but to thrive on the other side, and even find love again. Her message to listeners? Authenticity is healing, connection is possible, and no matter how public the pain, the future remains wide open.

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Transcript

[Paul]

Focus features in Blumhouse Obsession.

[Kerry Katona]

When I have a crush on a guy no one knows.

[Paul]

Be careful.

[Kerry Katona]

I wish Nikki loved me more than anyone in the entire world.

[Paul]

Who you wish for. Obsession is 96% fresh on rotten Tomatoes.

[Kerry Katona]

I love you so, so, so, so much.

[Paul]

It's blood soaked nightmare fuel.

[Kerry Katona]

What kind of spills you put on her?

[Paul]

You have been warned. Obsession. Rated R under 17. Animated without parent only theaters May 15 with special engagements in Dolby.

[Kerry Katona]

This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus. Elle every year after the Love Hypothesis. Sterling point and more slow burns, second chances chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. This is an exclusive. Not told anybody this. The story is the same thing I've been telling for years. It's just like the cameras are now in focus and people are actually hearing it differently. I just think about little Kerry upsets me now.

[Paul]

Can you believe that we're doing this again?

[Kerry Katona]

They just bloody love me, pal.

[Paul]

Here he comes. He's coming in. As a good interviewer, I have to ask you this.

[Kerry Katona]

I don't want to be associated with it when we're together. It's amazing. We are very different people.

[Paul]

Do you believe you two will get married? Hey there. Before we begin the episode, I just want to say thank you for choosing we need to talk. Doing this podcast is one of the greatest joys of my life and I want to continue to share it with you. So please subscribe. It's free, it takes just a second and it helps us to continue to grow this podcast. Are you ready for this?

[Kerry Katona]

Well, I've come prepared.

[Paul]

You're come prepared. All right, set your timers, everyone. Get the timers. Kerry Katona, we need to talk again.

[Kerry Katona]

About what? I have nothing left to give, Paul.

[Paul]

You do, you do. You do. Can we start with this?

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah.

[Paul]

All right, let's start with this. Why in the world are you wearing pajamas right now?

[Kerry Katona]

Well, the thing is, Paul, I've learnt my lesson with you. After known you for almost seven years, I can't get a word in edgeways.

[Paul]

I was gonna say. That is nice.

[Kerry Katona]

And last time I was here, like, we've worked together on quite a few things now. But last time I was here, you kept you. You. No, Paul, you have this thing that you do that your ass can't get out the seat. And you kept me here for 10 hours. Okay, just over 10 hours.

[Paul]

I kept you here for 10 hours.

[Kerry Katona]

It took you forever to get through that. We didn't even touch an aftershave.

[Paul]

We didn't. We did. That's why you'.

[Kerry Katona]

So this time I've come back. I thought, I'll be prepared. Okay, I've got my jamas, got me sleep mask, got me slippers. I've even brought my toothbrush.

[Paul]

All right, now also, you're on a couch.

[Kerry Katona]

Do you want me lie down?

[Paul]

Well, no, no, because it's not just you. You've brought someone with you.

[Kerry Katona]

He's not that small, Paul.

[Paolo]

No, no, no, he's here.

[Paul]

You brought Paolo with you?

[Kerry Katona]

I have brought Paolo with me.

[Paul]

Okay, so we're going to talk to Paolo. But before we bring Paolo on, it's just the two of us.

[Kerry Katona]

It's just us again.

[Paul]

It's just the two of us. Can you believe that we're doing this again?

[Kerry Katona]

No, I don't. No, I don't. I can't. I tell you what though, I did struggle after. After the one that we did went public, I struggled with a response, but in a completely different way because I get. I get really emotional. But I was actually on FaceTime to my elder two daughters, Molly and Lillian. I couldn't stop crying. I said, I just never had such lovely, amazing support. And the messages I got Paul was so overwhelming that I'm not used to that. I'm normally the knob ed. Do you know what I mean? Everyone kind of, you know, the car crash, Kerry. But the story, I told you, it's the same thing I've been telling for years. It's just like the cameras are now in focus and people are actually hearing it differently. Yes, I found it overwhelming. I didn't know how to accept the beautifulness of so many lovely people showing support.

[Paul]

The comments on your episode are like

[Kerry Katona]

paragraphs, essays, pa. My hands are killing me. Honest. I was like, that was that.

[Paul]

That was you.

[Kerry Katona]

It was me.

[Paul]

That was you. But it was a lot of people essentially saying, I thought this one thing about Carrie. I can't believe that I thought that. I feel ashamed that I thought that.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah, I know that I've now changed my life and I don't know. I'm the read comments Paul, and I don't. I think that's what surprised me the most because I get it. I get how people really. That's why I did the whole Katie and Kerry tour, which was on me. That was something I wanted and there was no point me telling me story on the stage because all bastard audience had all heard it. So for me, the fact that it was inspiring to others, that really fulfilled me. But I was also really confused thinking I don't understand why the response is like this now when I'm not told anything differently.

[Paul]

Yeah. You know, I think part of it is the long form of the interview. Right. The fact that it's not. It's edited, obviously. Right. Because we were here for 10 hours.

[Kerry Katona]

Oh, you poor edit people.

[Paul]

But I think that's part of it is that people were able to see you unfiltered. I think that's part. I think the other part too is that there is something about the setting where it allows people to just go deep and express and be vulnerable and take us along this ride and. And that's what you did. You know what? Carrie too is from the last time that we sat down. Between that time and now, have you had production companies or networks reach out to you?

[Kerry Katona]

Fucking ridiculous. Paul. Life's been really. Paul, it's crazy. I have found it really overwhelming and I think that's really sad. My daughter, she did. She did. Heidi.

[Paul]

Heidi, yeah, Heidi, of course.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah, love, Heidi. Yes, Heidi on her first solo shoot with a newspaper. And I was managing it, didn't get involved. You know, I was looking after, hiding. The reporter turned up. Hi, love. Come on in. Do you want a cup of tea? You know, sat there talking to her all day. And then the week after, when the article came out, I learned who the. The reporter was. I rang my mind. Don't tell me that was such. Such worry, my now son. And he went, kerry, I've just hung up off the phone. She just rang me crying. She said halfway through the day she had to go in my bathroom and cry for guilt because it's the first time she's ever actually met me after all those years of writing about me. And for her to have said that, I felt validated. And then next thing you know, this has come up. Disney, Netflix.

[Paul]

Oh, wow.

[Kerry Katona]

Itv. Goodness. This I can't tell you all, but this. Yeah, I think as well. And I think it's so unbelievable, my life story, that they actually want to turn it into like a serious film. Like a film like like Tina Turner kind of thing.

[Paul]

Oh, okay, I see, I see.

[Kerry Katona]

I mean, we'll be sat in the cinema for hours.

[Paul]

It'll be all week.

[Kerry Katona]

Bring pajamas.

[Paul]

You'll get to the end of the week, you'll only be 14.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Paul]

You know. Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

But honestly, since. Since doing that, the production companies, it's I mean, I take a lot of it with a pinch of salt because I've been through all that until it's there and happenings. It's like the people who've been in touch with me, like celebrities getting in touch with me saying, I watch that podcast. Oh, my God. And I'm like, oh, my God. Wow.

[Paul]

Yeah, wow.

[Kerry Katona]

People. People actually crying, like saying they sobbed, they laughed.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

I mean, I, I personally didn't watch it back.

[Paul]

So you still have not watched it, really?

[Kerry Katona]

No.

[Paul]

It's a two parter.

[Kerry Katona]

No. I can get upset thinking about it. You know what it is, see myself cry. I just think about little Kerry. Upsets me now. No, I've not watched it.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

I've not watched it back. I went to put it on and I was like, I can't. I can't watch it because there's a lot of shame in there for me as well, still, that I still deal with, you know that this is it today. That's all we've got. This is yesterday's gone, tomorrow's not promised. This is it. That's all I've got today right now. So why do I need to go watch it back? I know what happened. I can't see myself be upset like that because it's hard. Like we did a girl band documentary, Girls Forever.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

That was really hard to watch because there's this young girl on there. They're excited. Like they have footage that I've never seen, Paul. And everyone goes, oh, you got into it knowing full well what you're getting into. I did it. I watched topic pops and girls singing and dancing. That's what I want to do. And you just see this young Kerry on there and I'm watching and you've not got any clue what's about to happen to you. It was really hard. I had to keep stopping it because then there's a clip of me in the back of the car and Tash even says, you know, Kerry was struggling. I struggled with the fame. You won't think it now, but I did.

[Paul]

But no, I mean, you know, having sat down with you for the previous two episodes. Right. It's interesting. This is our third episode with Carrie Gitzen.

[Kerry Katona]

You just bloody love me. Parliament.

[Paul]

You are the first guest that we have invited back, so.

[Kerry Katona]

But it's what, three times? Second time.

[Paul]

No, for a second time.

[Kerry Katona]

Really.

[Paul]

So it has set this tone where the guests who come on to. We need to talk, feel they walk in this door ready to emote.

[Kerry Katona]

I am proud of who I Am is my authenticity and just being honest with who you are as a person, whether you like who you are or not. And I think if that's gonna help others come and unload, whether they're ashamed of it, embarrassed of it. I just need to talk about what's going on. I feel really emotional about that. It made it all look a bit worth it.

[Paul]

Over 3 million views and listens.

[Kerry Katona]

That's crazy. I don't even think it's about the views for me. It's just what it's given to other people to want to go and do. For people to look up to you like that. When everyone's really looked down on me for so long.

[Paul]

Yeah, you felt. I could see that. You felt seen, you felt heard.

[Kerry Katona]

It's not. I just think so. I've had so much shit over the years and everyone's looked down on me. I get it. And then for people to tell me I'm inspiration, it's like sometimes I don't feel like I deserve it because a lot of it was on me. I can't blame the world. I did for so long, but I just wanted to show people that you can get through it. Doesn't matter how low you go, doesn't matter how far you fall, doesn't matter how many times you're fatal. As Les Brown says, if you fall down, you're looking up, you can get up. It made me who I am. I wouldn't change any of it. I won't change my mum, I won't change the drugs. I won't change any of it. I won't change my husband. Wrong partner. Right kids, right experience. All lessons, not mistakes. If you keep doing it, then it's a mistake.

[Paul]

Then it's a mistake. Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

You just gotta learn from it.

[Paul]

Yeah. When you think back to our previous conversation, was there anything that you, upon reflection, that you wanted to mention or wanted to say? I mean, I have Lucky.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah. I just thought. What the fuck are you wearing, Paul? Jesus Christ. I got sitting looking at that bastard jumper all day, but I kept it to myself. I kept it to myself.

[Paul]

That was a designer. Okay, that was a designer. This is a designer jacket.

[Kerry Katona]

I had a little thing. I'm just. Just looking around. Paul, I don't understand why there's not a massive fuck off picture.

[Paul]

There is.

[Paolo]

You're right here.

[Kerry Katona]

Where? Yeah, you're right.

[Paolo]

In this.

[Kerry Katona]

It should be there. It should be there in a platinum frame.

[Paul]

Look how prominent that is right in the middle.

[Paolo]

Right in the front.

[Kerry Katona]

Should be. In fact, I should Be the face of the podcast.

[Paul]

Can we talk about your year? Because it's been about a year.

[Kerry Katona]

It's changed my year. It's been a year since I came and did subs. Go dating. I was on my own journey. I was. My energy was good. I had my nice routine at home with the children. Couldn't think of anything worse than getting near a man or being with a man or even living with a man ever again, because I've never gone public with how it ended. But it was disgusting what happened to me that my trust was just so vile.

[Paul]

This is with Ryan.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah. And it wasn't. I wasn't happy for, like, four years in that relationship. I think after being with George. And then because it was so mundane, like, Ryan was just safe and quiet, but not knowing who that person was because we didn't converse. I didn't know it. To find out in the end was just so shocking that my hair actually fell out.

[Paolo]

Did it?

[Kerry Katona]

It made me really ill. I didn't realize how much I missed conversing. And, like, I'd get. If I was upset, it'd be, you know, on his phone like this. I'd have to ask for a hug. I'd have to. You know, and sometimes I think I was actually seeking out attention from him by acting up just to try and get a bit of affection.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

And I don't know. There's a lot more to it, but I think for me, it was just. I'm sick of this. This trust. That's why I was so. Nah. I mean, I was just like, what do you do? Go on. Let's play up for cameras. Yeah.

[Paul]

So when you went into celebs. Go dating. It was really what you said it was the check.

[Kerry Katona]

What I do for my job is. It's exposure. When you do these TV shows, no bullshit. Every celebrity that is on there is on there for exposure to the next job. That's what we do. We're there to entertain and create escapism for these amazing people who are going through shit. They turn the TV on. It takes them away from their reality, and that's what I came to do. That is a. No other celebrity will tell you that. That is a. Okay. We've got this opportunity that means I could get another show or I could get more exposure or. That's my job, Paul.

[Paul]

Right.

[Kerry Katona]

Leave your ego at the bastard door. We're all the same. I love what I do because for me, when I get asked to do things, I also think, what a great adventure. What A great memory. What's gonna happen.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

You know, but I was. I was drunk. Ever me. You know that.

[Paul]

You definitely. I felt like you had this epiphany around Ryan and saying, okay, I now understand what happened there. I am happy in who I am. And it was this moment of, I'm content, finally.

[Kerry Katona]

I'm the queen of my castle. I thought, queen of my castle. I'm done. Yeah.

[Paul]

And then, here we go. Introducing Paolo. Were you also of the thought, just as you said, you came onto the show for publicity, et cetera. Were you also of the thought that a lot of the datees are on their foot? Exactly.

[Kerry Katona]

I said to Kiz, any fucker who goes on that bastard show are on there for fame. It's that simple. Do you think I'm gonna kiss anybody? No. And I was like, act to Adam. Hot. Do not make me snog anybody on telly. Cause I'm not doing it right.

[Paul]

These are the executives, these execs. Yeah. Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

I saw the Twitter, actually, not long ago.

[Paul]

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause I remember we were filming something else where I think they were trying to encourage you.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah.

[Paul]

And you decided no. The answer was no.

[Kerry Katona]

It doesn't matter. You could have put Brad Pitt up there. I was like, yeah, I'm not interested.

[Paul]

You were just not interested.

[Kerry Katona]

It doesn't care what you look like. You. I wasn't interested then.

[Paul]

At what moment did it change for you when you met him?

[Kerry Katona]

His energy? Paolo has such a calming presence about him. And I could tell straight away he'd been in therapy. I could tell straight away he'd worked on himself. I don't know. It was just. God, I could feel it in my chest now. I was, like, really, really drawn to him. And then he slid into my DMs.

[Paul]

Did he? So. So that night.

[Kerry Katona]

That night.

[Paul]

Which is against the rules. That's against the celebrity dating agency rules.

[Kerry Katona]

Can I tell you, all my replies were like two words, two sent. Like, I was still.

[Paul]

I mean, you were breaking the rules too, Carrie.

[Kerry Katona]

What are you gonna do, kick me off the show?

[Paul]

So he.

[Kerry Katona]

But I was being kindy and I, I, I thought he was a really. I thought he was. I thought he was lovely.

[Paul]

What did he say in that? The first slide in.

[Kerry Katona]

It's his aura, his energy. He's. Oh, in the dms. Well, I. Call me. I wore trainers just to take the piss or didn't have any height. Just, Just for the show. I'm not gonna. That's what it was. I thought, oh, I'll Get a laugh here with this. And then just the more I sat down with him and he said, like, stop interviewing him. Sit down and like, listen. And the more I listened to him, the more he spoke. And he, I was just pulled in, I thought, you're lovely. I was like, yeah, he was nice. I'm okay. I thought, oh, I'll go on if. Cause they force you. They literally put a gun together. They make you go on these bastard dates with these knobheads. And on our second date, when we met up, we stood outside, he went to go kiss her, just like that. And Sophia, the chaperone was like, you should have gone for a drink with him. And my father said, no, I hide at the hotel. I'm not going. No, I'm not going. I went, yeah, it went really well. And I hide went, why don't you text him, tell him to come back, Mum. She went, stop using us as an excuse. She goes, look at you, you look like a smart ass boss bitch. You're not gonna look like this again. Give him a text. Is that hidey? Give him a text, go downstairs, meet him at the bar for an hour, I'll come down halfway through, make sure you're all right. I went, should I? And she's actually got me on camera. I said, what? What do I say? And she's filming me. And I text him and he turned his Uber around and he came up at the hotel and our Heidi came down halfway through and we had a kiss and I went to bed with Heidi.

[Paul]

Look at that. So it's really. Heidi is the. Yeah, it was her inspiration.

[Kerry Katona]

It was my children that was. And DJ as well.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

So. And then eventually I wasn't well and Paola wanted to come to my house and I was like, so I'm not having some bloke off tell you, I've just met coming around, knowing where I live. And I'm playing the voice notes and it was our dj, go, mom, he sounds lovely, he's a great dad. This is my 11 year old daughter going, just let him come round. I went, if you end up in bastard therapy after this because I've had another bloody bloke in the house, don't blame me. And he came around. I literally, Paul, I'm not even lying. I sat like this in the corner of my sofa and I wouldn't let him anywhere near me. And I was like, this is where you're in my house. And I think it was like we'd seen each other quite a bit. I wasn't well he came around the house. He got me a care package because we'd been poorly and I had to have the three root canals. When we went to Kent, do you remember?

[Paul]

Yes, I remember.

[Kerry Katona]

He came to my house. He got on my bed, so don't get under covers. As I sailed over the covers, I always made sure I had no makeup on. I was in my scruffs all the time. He was just. Wasn't leaving. He was adamant, and I was like, you know. And then it was actually in Kent the day he surprised me, and then that was the next day that we went to a hotel by ourselves. We've done it every day since.

[Paul]

Well, thank you for that information.

[Kerry Katona]

I wake up every morning, Paul, and I think, can I fall in. I can't. How? I fall in love with him more and more every day. Yes, every day.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

This morning I woke up, I said, I'm so grateful for you. He's just a beautiful soul.

[Paul]

You could argue that if you were not in the right headspace, then you never would have connected. And you could probably argue the same with Paolo, because he has gone through things.

[Kerry Katona]

Timing is everything. And I feel like the Invisible Shrink theory is a massive, massive thing. And I feel like. Like, for me, the age was a big thing. It really was. I'm not this kind of person or woman who goes looking for toy boys. It's just, you know, because he's 11

[Paul]

years younger than you.

[Kerry Katona]

All right, Paul, get a fucking billboard and put it on there.

[Paul]

I'm just trying to state for those.

[Kerry Katona]

He's 11. 11 years younger than you, Kerry. Jesus.

[Paul]

Right, right. He's a decade plus one year.

[Kerry Katona]

That sounds even worse.

[Paul]

I'm just saying he's a decade and one.

[Kerry Katona]

And one, yeah.

[Paul]

Younger than you.

[Kerry Katona]

But for me, at first, that bothered me. I think I was overthinking. I was very critical of myself. I was very aware. I was very. You know, and the one thing. Paolo is. What I'm really never seen before, his actions match his words.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

And he said to me, time will tell and you will see. And it hasn't been easy. You know, we've had to blend our families together. You know, there's been obstacles in the way. Like every relationship, I've never felt anything like it. But, you know, I realize it's not that I go, I don't think I've ever really been in love. I don't think I've ever received or felt love the way Paolo actually loves me. Honestly.

[Paul]

Yes. And how does that feel? How does it feel? What is that. What does true love feel like?

[Kerry Katona]

Alien, but so filled up. I feel so full. I don't think I've ever. He's like a female version of me, but I'm better looking and funnier. But, you know, I've learned a lot from him. He's patient. I'm not really that patient sometimes, you know, but he's. He does everything with a smile, you know, he's emotionally intelligent, emotionally available. You know, we could sit in the room and not even have to speak and know what each other want. I've never had that. It's very powerful. And my Heidi said to me, her birthday was the 20th of February. Try and watch Magic Mike. Typical. The day before, I took our hide of champagne and lobster and she went, mum, you've just not been yourself this last year. It's anxiety since doing. We need to talk and since doing stuff to go dating and meeting Paul at parlour. This anxiety, like severe, severe bad anxiety. At one point, I was on stage with Katie. I ran off stage.

[Paul]

Oh, wow.

[Kerry Katona]

Like, it was crippling, crippling anxiety. And I had everything. I'm being inundated with work opportunities. I've met this most amazing guy. But this anxiety, because some of the things that have actually happened and I didn't tell everything is so shocking that I wouldn't be surprised if I'd be done over again. So I'm still learning myself.

[Paul]

Yeah, I could see it.

[Kerry Katona]

I'm still learning to accept that. But I guess it's a little part of me waiting.

[Paul]

Yeah, I could see it. It's almost like you don't trust that the good.

[Kerry Katona]

It's not that I don't trust.

[Paul]

Oh, no, no, not Paolo.

[Kerry Katona]

It's not that. It's like. Not because of him,

[Paul]

but because of what you've gone through.

[Kerry Katona]

Because it's.

[Paul]

Yeah, because of what she went through.

[Kerry Katona]

It's happened. It's been abandoned again.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Paolo]

Damn.

[Paul]

And you and Paolo now Paolo's a public figure. Your relationship is public.

[Paolo]

Mm.

[Kerry Katona]

Well, we're not really. It is public. What? We don't.

[Paul]

It's public. I mean, Carrie, you met on a television show, right?

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. But we're very private as well.

[Paul]

But you're very private. But where I'm going with this is that there are many people who have an opinion of your relationship now.

[Kerry Katona]

Here we go again. Another one.

[Paul]

Good. Exactly. Good, bad and indifferent.

[Kerry Katona]

Well, they're gonna have it, aren't they? And I'm very aware of that, yes. And I think that's why I Was so adamant at the start to think I wasn't expecting to fall in love like this. And that's scary because it's. I've never felt like this. I get really emotional. I've never ever felt like this about somebody that scares me because I don't want to be humiliated. I know he's not going to. I don't. You know, you just got to trust the process.

[Paul]

You have to trust. This goes back to that definition of trust is that you have to have the truth, but you also have to have the predictability. And if you don't have a history.

[Kerry Katona]

That's the thing.

[Paul]

It's like, why being held and you being able to instill trust, how can you then go forward?

[Kerry Katona]

I mean, I always gotta marry him in a heartbeat. I do this and I think to Paola, why would you want to marry me? With my track record, why would you? You know? And I love the thought of it. Scares the shit out of me.

[Paul]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

Really scares me.

[Paul]

And I'm going to. I want to talk about marriage when he comes as well.

[Paolo]

Can we?

[Paul]

This year too. I know this has been a challenging year because you had a health scare at the top of this year. Are you open to talking about what happened?

[Kerry Katona]

I think I just had. Really? The bad shits, Paul, to be honest with you. Yeah. I'm not even gonna lie.

[Paul]

That was your health scare?

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah. They said colitis.

[Paul]

Oh, colitis.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah. I've never even heard of it, but it was horrendous. I thought I was in labor. Paula wasn't. I was at work. I had to ring an ambulance. It was the night before. We were supposed to be doing our okay, shoot together. I was getting my extensions done. It's night time. I'm like, don't feel right. And I have regular bowel movement. Have me coffee at morning, go to the toilet. That's my routine before I start meditating. Just so you all know, there's nothing else more I can share. Unless you blood.

[Paul]

You bared it all.

[Kerry Katona]

That's it. And I was literally just on the toilet constantly. And at the point that I was screaming when I say I was screaming the house down with pain, that the ambulance came in and gave me morphine and I had to have a CT scan.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

And they said I have something called colitis and that. Yes, change it. But I've had no problem since.

[Paul]

Interesting. So do you know. You know that what the top cause of colitis is?

[Kerry Katona]

Love. It is a talking to you.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

I've got an ulcer from you

[Paolo]

you

[Paul]

know, this is wild because when I tell you, you're going to definitely.

[Kerry Katona]

All this shit. I think since he's been on April,

[Paul]

you're gonna put it on me. Is it is a compromised immune system. And you get a compromised immune system sometimes through stress.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah. My anxiety was so bad and honestly I was always like this. And since that emotional release, we're doing the breath work part, like my body was spasming. I literally felt it like my shoulders from my ears have dropped. It was just a lot to carry, I think as well. When you talk about what we spoke about in such depth, I had to still carry that after I left, you know, and reflect on it and that in itself. And then I went straight on tour with Katie and we spoke about shit every night that was really tough. Like, Kate's very. I don't want to speak on behalf of Kate. Really not. Kate's very detached. I'm very in tune and I'm trying to really. I put the show together even down to the fucking color palette of it. You know, I worried that to be lifting, enlightening, inspiring. And I bared all every night. That was a lot.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

You know, but I'm still dealing with

[Paul]

that, Paul, because with this. This is so interesting when you said that, because I now can see that. Right. Because I know Katie and she's very. A matter of fact says. I used to be says it and then just moves. There's no emotional attachment to what she's saying. Whereas I can see when you say something, it sits with you.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah. And it's like last year was a big year. Just doing. Talking to yourself. And then the show. And then we did a 38 day tour after that. Paul and I really bare all. We go deep into situations and conversations as well as having a laugh and being a knob and all that kind of stuff. And that was a lot. That was so. I mean, I go on tour again in May. I'm dreading it because it's not the same kind of tour. But that was a heavy, heavy tour to do. Yes, it was heavy. Imagine doing this every day on stage.

[Paul]

Every day. Yeah. I think I was talking to you

[Kerry Katona]

saying that you were worried that Kate wouldn't turn up. Turned up to every single one. She got caught in traffic, which everyone does. She was stuck into it for nine hours. You know, fairness to that, she turned up, I drove the car.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

She was there for every show.

[Paul]

I couldn't believe that you both completed the tour.

[Kerry Katona]

Oh, of course I would.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

Hello.

[Paul]

Ultimate professional with the anxiety. Do you still have it?

[Kerry Katona]

No.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

I can, I can get emotional about something where I talk about it, but since I did the breath work, I feel like it's got. Paul when I say it was every day, like Ashley with makeup art, she'll tell you got this anxiety. And I, it was always. I thought it was wrong with period because your hormones change. But I just had my last period after doing the, the, the breath work. But I do get a bit of separation anxiety from Paolo as well. Do you like that chest? When he puts me on his chest, I just. It's a little safe space for me.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

But I don't. But I feel like that anxiety, I feel like has gone. And since doing the breath work, you kind of go in your own head and analyze a lot and you get taken on a little bit of a path, of a journey, what I thought I was going in for, but end up walking away with something completely different. Does that make sense?

[Paolo]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

Do you know what I mean? I thought, right, this is, this is my problem.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

How do you get this? And then when I went on my local breath work journey and thought, oh, it wasn't that I was holding on lots from a lot I'm still dealing with my childhood a lot that I'm still having to let go of. And I was very like Kate, I was very detached. I used to say it like it was a script, but I'm very more in tune with it now because I'm healing, because I'm learning and I'm accepting. And that's sometimes one of the hardest things to do, is heal and accept. It is like when I look at little Kerry and I go back to little Kerry, the first thing I say to this little Kera who's been abandoned, she's all by herself. My mum, don't worry if she's put her in fostero, no one can ever. She's scared to death. I go back in as me, I say to her, oh, my gosh, you've got so much that's gonna happen here. First thing I say is, you got these five amazing kids. These kids are gonna be amazing. And then I go, you gotta go on stage, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. But these kids, you know, and this little girl is just like, it's gonna be an odd kid, but I've got you now. I've said it before, I've had to be my own hero, which I'm struggling with with Paolo.

[Paul]

How so?

[Kerry Katona]

Cause he does a lot for me. Like, he carries a bag and opens the Door. And he's. I'm very independent. I've always been bit of the man of the house. And I'm having to learn to let go of my alpha male in me to allow Paolo to be him. Does that make sense?

[Paul]

It does.

[Kerry Katona]

Because I've always been the boss of the house. Not so much the boss or who's in control or. But that's. That's been something new to me to learn to accept.

[Paolo]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

That it's okay for someone else to look after you a little bit. Which I struggle with. A little bit.

[Paul]

Yeah. Because you had to be independent.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah.

[Paul]

And now you're in a relationship with

[Kerry Katona]

someone who's very independent, very independent, very got the shit together.

[Paul]

Which makes you.

[Kerry Katona]

Doesn't need anything from me.

[Paul]

Right.

[Kerry Katona]

You know, that's new for me. Very, very new. Yes, it's very.

[Paul]

So you're becoming interdependent.

[Kerry Katona]

I'm sure you just made that up. But yeah, that is the term.

[Paul]

That's the term interdependent, which is something that many people who are independent have a very hard time doing. Because how do you relinquish, you know,

[Kerry Katona]

the fact that I've just started allowing him to look after the passports.

[Paul]

Oh, wow, that's big.

[Kerry Katona]

Big.

[Paul]

That's big.

[Kerry Katona]

That's a big one, that. I'm quite old fashioned in that respect. I love the old fashioned ways, Paul, of a man and a wife and a husband and children and a man being the man of the house, you know. But that's what I always create. That's why I left the Sonic Kitten. I got pregnant. I wanted to be mum and a wife. That's all I ever wanted.

[Paolo]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

I wanted those picture frames up on the wall and it lasts forever. That was my dream. It's all I ever wanted. So to meet somebody like Paolo, who's actually so kind, so generous, so caring, so giving, so independent. True to his word is alien in a way, but also really overwhelming and so fulfilling and.

[Paul]

Yeah. No, he's 1010.

[Kerry Katona]

He's a one off.

[Paul]

Yeah, he's 1010.

[Kerry Katona]

He'S definitely one off. And I can't believe I found him. When I was in Ibiza. I had to go meet Anna and Tara.

[Paul]

This is when we were filming.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah. I brought my gratitude book.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

And I said on camera, I want to manifest my soulmate. And I read it out all on camera and everything that was in that list. I want someone who's going to slow down, swim in the kitchen, someone who will sing silly with me in the car, you know, someone Who'll be my biggest cheerleader, you know, someone who's independent, Someone who's got their own shit going on. Someone who's got their own fucking money. Everything

[Paul]

right there. Right there.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

Believe in it. I do.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

Everything.

[Paul]

Yeah. On the tour, though. Would you ever do a tour like that again?

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah. Because I know how much it inspired others. I know how much it. I can't express to you in the meet and greets, the people who came up to me who was considering suicide. Why would I say no to doing that if I could help someone change their life or save a life? Paul, I'm not joking. Like, people literally crying, saying, you've changed my life. That's so every night. I gave it everything I could. Because if I could help someone not do that.

[Paolo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paul]

How was it that. Because I know that you organized the tour.

[Kerry Katona]

Oh, with the help of AB Productions, obviously. But the whole thing was my idea.

[Paul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did you.

[Kerry Katona]

Well, I actually chose the presenters and I got Jamie's to help write it and put it together. The production company I've worked with for years, like my family.

[Paolo]

Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

And the whole point of it was, I'm a woman's woman. I can be a tomboy, but I never look down on anybody unless I'm helping them up.

[Paul]

Right.

[Kerry Katona]

And that was the whole point with Kate. People that tell me not to work with her don't do this. I was like, hang on a minute. I know what she's been through. Why would we not do that? And panto was such a great. You know, she was amazing on it.

[Paul]

Oh, so you two had done panto together?

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah, yeah, we did panto together the year before.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah. And it was a sellout.

[Paul]

Oh, of course it was. Of course it was.

[Kerry Katona]

It's not me. I mean, Kate's here, I'm here. It's always been like that. Yeah.

[Paul]

Okay, can we talk about you and Katie? We're not gonna go to the place, but let's talk about you and Katie. Because I think that many people would say, I don't even understand how these two are friends.

[Kerry Katona]

Really?

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

Can I explain something about me and Kate? Our lives, we're very different people. We're. I think you know that.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

But our lives are very mirrored. And I don't think there's anybody in this industry who understands what I've been through like Kate. And no one understands what Kate's been through like I do. Five children, three husbands, both been bankrupt, both under drugs, both glowing models, both been horrendous. Headliners. So we understand that, and we get that, okay. When we're together. Banter's great. But we are very different people. I love Kate. I want nothing than amazing things to happen for her. And I'll always be there for Kate, and I wish nothing but happiness for her. But we are different people in that respect, in a lot of things. Like, I like to think. Well, I like to thought that when we were doing the tour, I actually noticed the more the tour got on, Kate repeating things I'd been saying. I actually sat back quite proud. And I was looking at you laughing. Cause you know, I'm listening to everything that I said. You know, when I'm doing motivational and I'm talking about myself, Kate then starts repeating as the tour's going, oh. I was like, she's listening. It's great. Because that was the whole point. I wanted people to see the Kate that I knew. And all this, you know, I know you're going short to it. I said, I'm telling you now. She will. If I'm there, Kate will do it. And she did.

[Paul]

You're right. You're right.

[Kerry Katona]

And she dare knew it. And we had a great time. We had so many laughs and fun. I really got to know Kate on the tour. Even though we've. It's almost been more of a celebrity friendship. You know, we've not seen each other for years and years and years. Like a decade or something.

[Paul]

Oh, wow.

[Kerry Katona]

So it's not like we've been besties in that respect. But I know I could trust Kate with something, and she'd never. And vice versa. Might not always agree with what she does. She might always agree with what I do.

[Paul]

I see the similarities. I mean, you just painted them. Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

And that's been very mirrored. So there's no one who will ever understand what that's been like. Apart from her and me.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

Does that make sense?

[Paul]

It does. It does.

[Kerry Katona]

In this industry.

[Paul]

Yes, it does. It does. And when I spoke with Katie, it was one of those where I couldn't believe it was similar to my conversation with you. Like, I couldn't believe what she had gone through. And to be able to recite it, to say it.

[Kerry Katona]

She did it every night on stage to the point that I saw it was getting too much, that I took certain parts of it out. I actually. I'm quite. When I'm in boss mode, I'm in boss mode. When I'm in business mode, when I'm like, look, and the accent left something. I said, it's like that's gotta go. Because Kate's losing it on stage and I don't want people to think that she's lost the plot. Not that she had at all. It's just repetitiveness of talking about the same thing. A lot can do something to people differently. And so for me it was. She's very detached. She knows that herself. But me and my family, we adore Kate. Like when she's at mine at Christmas with Harvey, like my Kate, me and Paolo know my kids are always great.

[Paul]

20 years of friendship there. All right. But I'm like LOL. I'm more than 20.

[Kerry Katona]

I met Kate when I was 19. I'm 45.

[Paul]

Aha.

[Kerry Katona]

Okay.

[Paul]

Yeah. So it was 25. Yeah, it was. I was thinking before the jungle.

[Kerry Katona]

18 or 19. Yeah. I won't tell you what she first said to me. Nah. Me and Kate both said I'll never, never repeat that. I'll tell you off camera. But yeah, she was always just trying. Shock factor Kate.

[Paul]

Oh really?

[Kerry Katona]

And I was like, I think she was like it's with her boobs. This is not what she. That I won't tell you. There was me, Dane Bowers, Brian McFadden and Bradley from US Club 7 and Natasha.

[Paolo]

Oh wow.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

I think was in twice as nice. She like saw something like that. Cuz Kate was very intimidating. She was like the top club model of everyone knew who Jordan. Jordan there I didn't even know her name was Kate at this point. And I said go on then Brian, feel him. So he must have thought I was the greatest girlfriend in the world and he felt him and I said I feel something that's fucking real. So I was never intimidated by someone. Bear in mind how I grew up. Do you know what I mean? Me and Kate's adult lives are very similar. Our childhood's completely different. Do you know what I mean? So I think she respects that because I was not intimidated by anybody. I didn't give a shit who you was.

[Paul]

That's pretty bald.

[Kerry Katona]

Mine were real at the time. You know, I was tripping over my nipples as to get them done to people. Health and safety, you know what I mean? I was outside without workmen, buried our dads. So yeah. So I think that that and we'd bump into each other over the years and just. Oh yeah, you're right. And then it was a jungle really that brought us together.

[Paul]

Brought you together.

[Kerry Katona]

And then you do things and you do the photo like and then the papers want you to magazines what you do shoot and then you don't really talk to each other. Then we had a falling out and then I didn't speak to her for years and years and years.

[Paul]

Can I ask you about this AI thing I've seen you do?

[Kerry Katona]

Me?

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

Oh, the O chat, the ochan.

[Paul]

Yeah, yeah, And Katie. Okay, okay, yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

Ask away. Subscribe people. Paul, we spoke about this, darling. I knew you were gonna try getting it in here. Look, Pat, can you get that discount code for PA please?

[Paul]

All right, this is.

[Kerry Katona]

All right, sign him up. For free.

[Paul]

Give it to me for free. All right, this is why I bring this up, okay?

[Kerry Katona]

Because I saw Katie, because Kate likes AI.

[Paul]

I saw her come out with her. What do you call it, like your AI twin. Yeah, so she came out with her AI twin. I see you come out with your AI.

[Kerry Katona]

It was at the same time. But because I do onlyfans and I do my onlyfans. Me personally. Nobody else runs it. It's me. It's so full on. That's why I'm at home doing that. So this O chat is similar, but it's, it's me. But it. You can ask and make it do anything you want, but actually isn't me and I still make money from it.

[Paul]

Okay? So this to me is so fascinating and this shows.

[Kerry Katona]

I don't really know much about it, to be honest, people. I just got told it's just another stream of revenue for me.

[Paul]

But. But it's an AI twin that's trained. So it, it looks like you. It's kind of you. Yeah, it sounds like you.

[Kerry Katona]

I wish you did look like that.

[Paul]

But it's modeled after you. It looks very similar to you.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah, so you have to like voice. You have to do your voice. And then I just send him a few pictures.

[Paul]

Right?

[Kerry Katona]

And then it turns it into. I mean, if you don't, if you don't keep up with it, Paul, you're gonna get left behind.

[Paul]

Right, but, but, but let's, but can we have a serious AI chat around? Okay, you ready for this?

[Kerry Katona]

I'm real. I'm Carrie.

[Paul]

So you're Carrie?

[Kerry Katona]

I am right now.

[Paul]

You're Carrie.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah.

[Paul]

So this is where I'm going. So I'm fascinated by parasocial relationships, these one sided, emotionally bonded relationships. So with your AI twin, someone can basically have a conversation with your twin.

[Kerry Katona]

I just thought of something that's really scared me actually. I've not really thought about this before, but they can get like proper involved with this person and follow me.

[Paolo]

This is where I'm going.

[Kerry Katona]

Is that where you're going.

[Paolo]

This is where I'm going.

[Kerry Katona]

Just hit me. Rewrite those cameras, you'll see. That thought just hit my head because I get really nervous about this with OnlyFans.

[Paul]

So this is exactly where I'm going.

[Kerry Katona]

They're gonna think they're in a real relationship.

[Paul]

They're going to think because. Because they can chat with you at any time. 2:00am you. Your twin chats back. Your twin will send them some images.

[Kerry Katona]

What will they send me, Paul? How does it go? Is that what you do when you go into the bedroom? I'm gonna piss myself.

[Paolo]

Just leave. Leave.

[Paul]

All right, the interview's done.

[Kerry Katona]

Oh, my God.

[Paul]

The interview is done. I do not wanna talk to you anymore.

[Paolo]

I don't wanna talk to you anymore.

[Paul]

I do not like this. I want Carrie gone.

[Kerry Katona]

Is that your dream? I see it all now.

[Paolo]

All right. Seriously.

[Kerry Katona]

Oh, my God.

[Paul]

Let's get serious. Let's get serious, please.

[Kerry Katona]

I beg, keep that in because I've got to watch that book. You sense

[Paul]

this is all right.

[Kerry Katona]

Mental immediate. Ouch. Gone.

[Paul]

Okay. Remember, this is serious conversation about parasocial relationships here. Okay?

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah.

[Paul]

So your AI twin sending.

[Paolo]

Is sending.

[Paul]

Is sending images.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Having conversations, leaving voice message.

[Kerry Katona]

I know. No, you said that the person thinks,

[Paul]

wow, I have a relationship with Carrie.

[Paolo]

Yeah. How do you feel about it?

[Kerry Katona]

You know what? Up until that moment, I kind of saw where it was going and I thought. I've not really thought about it like that. Because what does scare me about only fans as well? Not just only fans. I've had. I've had stalkers, I've had dms. You know, it doesn't just have to be all night. Doesn't have to just. I get this on a daily basis. Sometimes I get like love poems. And before I ever did Onlyfans. Forget about that. I had the police stood up at my house. The guy who was a rapist who won the lottery in jail, had a shrine to me and was gonna buy me when he got out. How she's like, oh, I've got a soccer. I'm really famous. You know, you're not actually really realizing, you know, one guy had his hallway with all the news clippings all up his hall, all the way up the stairs of you. This is nothing to do with how many vans or just me because it was scary. You know, I don't think it helps. It adds to it. But I'm also not going to stop doing what I do because of minority of something. Otherwise none of us would do anything. But that's always happened. Whether it's AI, whether it's just me being an atomic kid, whether it's me being a Garmin model, whether it's me being a reality star, someone will always have a fascination or an attachment.

[Paul]

I have a few surprises for you.

[Kerry Katona]

Oh, fuck it, Opal. Don't you make me scared.

[Paul]

No, this is a good surprise.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah, go on.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

Don't look that.

[Paul]

I would love to do that.

[Kerry Katona]

Paul. That would be fucking brilliant.

[Paul]

I would love to do that.

[Kerry Katona]

You shouldn't do that.

[Paolo]

You shouldn't.

[Kerry Katona]

No, it's not.

[Paul]

I cannot do that to you, Carrie, even though I would like to.

[Kerry Katona]

Go on. Ooh. Kerry, you know I'm dyslexic and I can't fucking read. Is it a coloring book

[Paul]

now? I tell you what, I would be more than happy to read this as well.

[Kerry Katona]

Do you want to read it?

[Paul]

Oh, yeah. I can read it to you.

[Kerry Katona]

Okay.

[Paul]

And I want you to guess who it is written from. Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

It's not a restraining order, is it?

[Paul]

Okay. All right, you ready?

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah.

[Paul]

I've been thinking a lot about everything you've been through and everything you've done. And I just needed to put it into words. You are and always will be my hero. The strongest, most resilient person I've ever met. You faced so much in your life, more than most people would ever really know. But somehow you've come out of it with strength. And I honestly can't even begin to measure how strong you are. You didn't just survive, but you carried on and kept going. You fought back against everything life threw at you, and you never gave up. And you provided us all with a better life. That's something I admire more than I probably say out loud to you. Mom. Heidi, when you believe in something, you give it your whole heart. And that's something I've learned from you without even realizing it. Everything I am today is because of you. Your love, your sacrifices, and your passion, they've shaped me into the person I. I'm still becoming. And I'm so grateful for that. Every single day, I hope to grow up to be just half the woman you are and mother you are. That really got me. That's powerful. And more than anything, I just want you to be happy. Truly, deeply happy. You deserve that more than anyone. So seeing you find that happiness now, especially with Paolo, means everything to me. You have a glow about you since meeting Paolo. And I can really see that you have met your soulmate, the person you will be with forever. And I hope that you know how loved you are by me and my four built in best friends. I love you more than I could ever put into writing. Love you to the moon and back.

[Kerry Katona]

Heidi, Heidi. Yes, it could have been any of

[Paul]

them, but Heidi, Heidi, I have this that I just want to. So that is. That's you and Heidi. You know, I've had the privilege.

[Kerry Katona]

That's it for me. That's all I need is their approval.

[Paul]

That's it.

[Kerry Katona]

No one else's. That's all I crave more than anything is my kids to be proud of me. And I just hope try to guide them in the right way. And I haven't been perfect. Far from it. I'll still get it wrong. She's a little cow, but that's what I need.

[Paul]

She's. I've had the privilege of meeting Heidi right, on a few occasions and she's

[Kerry Katona]

gonna love the fact she's trumped her sisters and brothers. That's what she does.

[Paul]

Oh, really?

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah, she does it on purpose. I know her own nuts. So peaceful.

[Paul]

Yeah. And she's peaceful. You know what's interesting? From every time I've met Heidi, I could see that it's such an interesting relationship that she has with you. She looks up to you, but yet you're friends at the same time.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah, like she still won't swear in front of me. Heidi, I'm quite different with my son. I'm different with all of them. I was a different woman, a different person with all my children. I was a baby when I had Molly, you know, and then I was a different person when I had Heidi and Max. Then I was older when I had dj. So even though everyone else says like this, five of us, or they say two kids are all brought up in the same house, one went that way, one went that way. No, you was never the same parents. Both your children. You're not. Because you go through a different stage of your life that changes you as a person. Like how I treat DJ is completely different to how I've treated the others. I'm not softer on dj. Well, that's because her dad died. I've morale colder, but I have been shit with my children. No bullshit, no moaning, no whinging. And the fact that that's what I've got back says it all. You know, they're the best five parts of me, the best versions of me. And I want them to just be their best individual selves that they can ever be. It's all look at everyone. That's all I want. That's my legacy right there.

[Paolo]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

My kids, that's my mark on this world. Not me sat here telling a story. Not me telling my truth, getting my legacy. That's my mark on this world.

[Paul]

And they, they seem like they adore Paola.

[Kerry Katona]

They, I think they might love him more than me. I'm not going to lie. They do. They absolutely adore him. They, they is like an older brother to him. I had to. Heidi, I love you. That was beautiful.

[Paul]

That was so precious. That was beautiful. And I think this is the perfect time to bring Paolo in. Have you ever noticed how many of your friends are sitting on great business ideas? It's usually nothing to do with thinking their idea isn't good enough and everything to do with the execution side. Feeling a bit too technical. But with our show sponsor, Shopify, so much of the technical side is taken care of for you. It enables you to set up your own online store without a developer. You just pick a store template, customize it to your own branding, upload some product photos, set your prices and you're live. Shopify looks after your payments, inventory, orders, returns. It even helps with calculating shipping rates. And if you also want help selling your products, Shopify's built in tools write product descriptions, create email campaigns, and schedule social posts for you too. It makes the technical part of running a business so much easier. So give it a try yourself and sign up for your one pound per month trial and start selling today at shopify.co.uk needtotalk look at this. He's here for the sleepover.

[Paolo]

Yeah, Kerry did say that this would be a very, a very long, long show, so I thought I'd come dressed for the occasion. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

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[Paul]

We're all matches.

[Paolo]

I can borrow the eye mask as well.

[Kerry Katona]

On.

[Paul]

You got the eye mask.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Paul]

You know, I see already this.

[Paolo]

That's nice.

[Paul]

Cause Carrie, she was just talking about how her safe space is your chest.

[Kerry Katona]

I'm quite childlike with Paolo.

[Paolo]

Let me take this off.

[Kerry Katona]

It is high. It's a bit small on him.

[Paul]

Yeah, yeah, it was a bit tight.

[Kerry Katona]

Those massive arms.

[Paul]

Especially around the arms. Yeah, it was a bit tight. It was a bit tight. Thank you. Thank you for coming. But I will also say you were here the last time that Carrie was here. You were just off camera.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah, he came halfway through, won it.

[Paolo]

Yeah, it was. It was a long one. That was it, babes. It was a long one.

[Kerry Katona]

Telling me.

[Paolo]

I mean, you know, when we spoke in the morning, you said, oh, you know, we'll be probably done by 1pm that was at 9 in the morning. You was. I was nervous and I sat in the hotel working. I was like, listen, I'll be. I'll work, work here. I'll wait for you to come back. So I rung her at, like, one saying, you know, message, how are you getting on? She rung me, said, babe, I think you should come here. We're only a third of the way through.

[Kerry Katona]

I said, don't sit in that hotel on your own. Because you had to check out the room, you see.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

So I was like, oh. And I went, can someone go get Paolo from the hotel? Because I've got a funny feeling I'm gonna be here for a while.

[Paul]

Look at that. And he came right over, waited for you.

[Paolo]

Yeah, it was. It was heavy for you, that. When it babes, it was.

[Paul]

Yeah, yeah.

[Paolo]

And that journey home, it's amazing, the contrast of person from what you guys had on the show. And obviously it was very deep. And there was a lot of. Kerry gave a lot. But the minute she got in the car, it was, like, interesting. And, you know, I explained a few times. I unders. I. I understood how she was feeling in that moment, having to express and talk about trauma. And all we said. All I said was, no, you don't have to talk. Just, you know, we'll go for a little bit of food if you feel up to it. And within 30 minutes after the food, we had a little laugh and a joke, didn't we? And then, you know, we're pissing ourselves in the room. Yeah, yeah. So it was.

[Kerry Katona]

He's very good.

[Paul]

Very good.

[Kerry Katona]

Knowing what I need without me having to ask.

[Paul]

Yeah. All right. So this is a relationship that I think so many people are fascinated by. First because you met on a dating show, which is mad. And you know what's wild, too, is that most people who meet on dating shows don't stay together. Right. So you two meet, and I think what the audience saw was this real rawness. And we saw two people fall in love.

[Paolo]

Yeah. 100%. Look at your face. Yeah, it was. It was. It was. It was really nice, you know, and you don't. You don't realize that, the impact and how invested people get. Because when you're in the moment, you know, it's like if you just focused on what you. Where you're going and what you're doing, you're living in the moment, you know, you're living with what's going on. But everybody else is experiencing that as well, so they're all bought into this, you know, this story.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Paolo]

This love story. You know, it sounds really weird.

[Kerry Katona]

Like, when we watch it back, we were watching it like this. We were like, oh, my God. And I can't watch. Oh, my God. Because I was so vulnerable with my feelings. I've never been like that, especially when it comes to love on TV with somebody I met. And I really, really. I can't explain this energy that we have. I'm blown away by it.

[Paul]

Yeah, I think we all are at how quickly it happened. I think that now I know each of you individually, right. And I understand how well matched you are, but I think the quickness of how close you became, that was what surprised me.

[Paolo]

Yeah, I mean, it was. It's. It's not. Felt really quick, though. That's the thing. It felt really like, organic. It wasn't like, right, we need to achieve this now or, we need to get there now. Everything was like. It was like water. It was like a stream going down. Right. It was like everything that has happened along the journey has just felt right in the moment to do.

[Paul]

How do you feel the reception from the media has been to your relationship with Kerry?

[Paolo]

To be honest, I think it's been. It's been quite positive. I think, like Kerry always talks about is, you know, Kerry has evolved so much over the last few years from where she was to where she is now. Now, I didn't know Kerry before, but I know Kerry's soul. I know who Kerry is. I know all her values and, you know, all the characteristics of Kerry. I've always been there. But like anybody who goes through trauma, you project it sometimes in ways that aren't always correct. And with Kerry being in the Public Eye, you know, that sells stories. So it was easy to create a narrative of Kerry as this car crash or whatever.

[Kerry Katona]

I was a little bit.

[Paolo]

No, you were. But then. But you own that as well. But I think where Kerry is now and the work she's done on herself, the media really love Kerry because they don't have to paint her in a negative light anymore. They can talk positively about her and it's well received. It's like the. The Nation get behind it, you know, seeing how happy Kerry is and how much she's worked on herself, you know, and I think that's. That's equally as impactful as a negative story about a person. So us coming together and the. The Me and the Nation, seen how organic and natural it's been, has obviously increased that.

[Kerry Katona]

I find it really weird when we talk about the Nation and shit like that, because for me, it's not been like that at all. For me, it's just been me and him and the kids.

[Paolo]

Yeah, exactly that.

[Kerry Katona]

It's just been me, him and kids. Like slaves. Go dating. Feels like a lifetime ago.

[Paul]

But what about the articles? And I will say this is. I feel like surprisingly, there's been overwhelmingly positive response to the two of you. I thought, especially when you left. I remember pulling you aside at the finale. I was like, look, man, they're gonna come after you and talk about the age difference. They're gonna do all this. Now, there've been a few of those articles, but I think overwhelmingly though, it's been supportive.

[Kerry Katona]

I've never had the public so invested in somebody I'm with. Ever.

[Paolo]

Yeah, never.

[Kerry Katona]

And for me, it's not for that. It's so lovely and beautiful. But when I hear those words from my high day, knowing how much my children love Paolo and seeing what it's almost like, him and his children lit a spark fire.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

And it not only enlightened me, it enlightened my kids.

[Paolo]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

And it kind of brought us all back together because I kind of got stuck in a rut. Paul, you know, from where I was with my ex, I was always away and pal. So family orientated. Like, what's it on the table? Like it's like Christmas Day. Every day we try.

[Paolo]

I tried to push for that, especially one day a week if we're both at home and the kids keep that up.

[Kerry Katona]

Like we did it.

[Paolo]

Like we did because it was. We're gonna have a barbecue on Sunday because the weather was nice. Right? English, English weather. Barbecue, 12 degrees, sunshine.

[Kerry Katona]

Paul's got yourself.

[Paolo]

Paul's in his Canada Goose jacket, hot water bottle, freezing.

[Paul]

But see, see, now I see you're rubbing off on

[Paolo]

that six. Game over, never coming back. But I think that's very important to create that family unit, because as, you know, kids now, social media, they're becoming a lot more detached from the communication skills that we. I'm very lucky. I was probably the last generation of communication. She's coming for the. No, but seriously, like, I think we, you know, we, you know, we played out.

[Paul]

We.

[Paolo]

We had best of both worlds. You know, technology started to come along, whereas now from, you know, 8, 9, 10, 11, they've all got, you know, phones or iPads or whatever. And I think we're so detached from communicating, and it's quite scary because that's only going to get worse.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Paolo]

So for me, being from an Italian background, you know, for me, a Sunday was always about going to my grandma and granddad's, you know, pastor on the table, nice food, and we'd sit there and we won't be able to leave until we'd eaten at least two bowlfuls.

[Paul]

Look at that.

[Paolo]

And that stuck with me. So for me, implementing that or trying to implement that is key.

[Paul]

And on that note, I have another surprise.

[Paolo]

He's full of surprises today. It is.

[Kerry Katona]

Paul.

[Paul]

All right, ready for this? This is one of my favorites. Bam.

[Kerry Katona]

I was like this.

[Paul]

Oh, that was your birthday. Okay. So.

[Kerry Katona]

So in this, though, that was my 21st.

[Paul]

What. Describe for everyone just listening via audio, what is. What is happening in this photo and what does it mean to you?

[Paolo]

So I don't know if we can show any of the cameras or if any of the cameras will pick this up.

[Kerry Katona]

Unfortunately, I, I started the tour that day on my birthday.

[Paolo]

Oh, you did?

[Kerry Katona]

So we couldn't really celebrate it or do anything because the first date night of the tour was the 6th of September. Paul was 18th of September. So that was my last day at home. And it was also my birthday.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

So we organized to go for birthday breakfast. So that's when I say, don't socialize. That's my social life. Yes, that's it. There's Max's girlfriend there, Heidi, Milani, Noah, my DJ, and then Molly and Lily was on FaceTime.

[Paolo]

It's a beautiful.

[Kerry Katona]

I love that. That, that.

[Paolo]

That was one of our. That was one of the pictures that

[Kerry Katona]

got so many of these.

[Paolo]

Yeah, obviously that was probably one of the first images where we were together as a family after the show. It was one of the. Probably the first image that we had as a. As A full blended family having lunch together. And the. The. The outreach on that one was huge. It was a. I remember that one specifically. That was really.

[Paul]

Because Pala. So you had two children prior to Carrie. Carrie, you had five. So coming together.

[Paolo]

Coming together. We could create certain fc. Oh, yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

Oh, my God.

[Paul]

Full football. I like that. I like that. You're back in my good graces. I like. I like that. I like that. But, yeah, but it's.

[Paolo]

It's.

[Paul]

You have seven children between the two of you.

[Kerry Katona]

Christmas is great, wasn't it?

[Paolo]

Oh, it was chaos.

[Kerry Katona]

Seven kids. We had them all.

[Paul]

How do you manage a blended family at that size?

[Kerry Katona]

Well, I think people forget, like, Molly, Lily moved out. You know, Heidi's 19. Max is always with his girlfriend. And, like, they've been together as long as we have. Now Max has the. Our next. So he's got his own little apartment. Our Max, he set up brilliant up there. His girlfriend's got it. He's so good to her. And he bought a vanity desk. So they got that side, haven't they? So I'm actually on my own quite a lot.

[Paul]

How do you manage the age difference? Or does that not come up?

[Paolo]

I think that was just one of Kerry's things, to have a reason not to push forward. I really do believe that. I think that was just another one of her barriers at the time. Like, I'm Paul. No, I'm Italian.

[Kerry Katona]

Paul.

[Paul]

He's a star student, I tell you. So she. You think she was just using age as an excuse?

[Kerry Katona]

You know, I'm here.

[Paolo]

I. I do. Well, it's all right. Yeah, I do. I do believe. I do. Get comfy, babe. Put your legs up. I do, I do believe so. I do. I do think so. Because, you know, I bring the joke up. Like I did the post the other day about her in 2000s. Me in 2000s.

[Paul]

Quite different.

[Paolo]

She called me a wanker. Dick.

[Kerry Katona]

Dick. It was funny.

[Paolo]

Yeah. And I think you don't necessarily see the age gap. I think you. I don't notice it. I don't know. I needed. I think I needed. I needed a. I needed. Carry my life. I needed Carrie. I needed the maturity and somebody again. Somebody who's gone through what they've gone through because of my journey.

[Kerry Katona]

You've fallen asleep in my arm.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

And me spooning here.

[Paolo]

She's given me so much.

[Kerry Katona]

She's like, I never go sleep. I literally. He fell asleep in my arms and

[Paolo]

I held him, stroking my head.

[Paul]

Look at that.

[Paolo]

Like a baby.

[Kerry Katona]

I was breastfeeding him I loved it.

[Paolo]

I was enjoying it.

[Paul]

You were, I'm sure you were. I'm sure you were. What I'm curious about is, can I

[Kerry Katona]

go watch on the monitors? No, no, no, no, no.

[Paul]

This is good for you to be here to react.

[Kerry Katona]

I'm trying not to get involved in real time. Very difficult.

[Paul]

Is that there are, I would presume, a significant number of people who believe they have this kind of parasocial relationship with Carrie. Like through. Maybe if they subscribe through OnlyFans, they feel like they have an emotional bond.

[Kerry Katona]

Quite.

[Paolo]

Paul does. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Well, Paul's on there.

[Paul]

Both of you are wild, right? How do you manage that knowing that there are people who believe they have this relationship with Kerry but don't, to

[Paolo]

be honest, I just have to make sure that I support and offer Kerry the protection that I can. You know, the level of protection that I can. Because obviously it's a crazy world and there's a lot of crazy people out there, you know. And unfortunately, with Kerry, who Kerry is. With regards to onlyfans or not, there is gonna be people who send wild messages and have this fantasy that they are, you know, connected to carry in some way. So it's quite challenging at times. That is, it's quite like, you know, what you see, seeing people say what they say to carrying messages, it can be quite. Not a bit. Not triggering, but, you know, that's my.

[Kerry Katona]

So easy going.

[Paolo]

That's. That's my partner that I want to make sure he's protected and safe. But she's a big woman and she'll bother me if I needed to. She's. She could knock anyone out, honestly. She pretends. Look at the look in her eyes, Paul. Honestly, you can see the look.

[Paul]

Yeah, I know.

[Paolo]

I love it.

[Paul]

She. She is tough.

[Paolo]

Yeah. She's. She's resilient. She's tough. And, you know, all I can do is support her the best I can.

[Paul]

Have you ever been in a situation where maybe you're out in public and someone got a little too close to. To. To Carrie and you had to give him a.

[Paolo]

There was. There was one.

[Kerry Katona]

Our second date, and that guy started shouting Renee. To his let's go date.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Onto Lasco.

[Kerry Katona]

Daniel.

[Paolo]

Yeah. We was outside on our actual second date, wasn't it?

[Kerry Katona]

And this guy was like flesh and

[Paolo]

bun and he was shouting like a bit derogatory stuff towards Kerry. And. And I just obviously didn't really know Kerry that well at that point, but I just said, look, you know, just stand in the doorway and you know, I'll stand here and if, you know, if you want me to say something to him, I will. But she's like, no, you don't need to. The only other time there's been something like that was me and Kerry was out on a date in London. And obviously Kerry's beautiful. Like, she's pretty, you know, she gets attention of people. She does, yeah. So, like when, when she's dolled up, she looks amazing as well, you know what I mean? Like when she's out.

[Kerry Katona]

That's why.

[Paolo]

Well, you look amazing anyway.

[Kerry Katona]

But you even say this morning, what you said to me this morning.

[Paolo]

I get my words mixed up in the morning. Paul, you know, when he's walking, you

[Kerry Katona]

know what he's walking.

[Paolo]

A new woman's in your face. Morning, babe. We need to go to the shops today. We need to go buy presents for everyone. We should buy that house in Marbella, you know, we should. We should do what? I mean, so like, I'm like, this just woke up. But anyway, so there was only one time where these guys were shouting something at the top of the stairs. They were upstairs in this club where the toilet wants to go upstairs. And I could hear. You can hear Kerry a mile off.

[Kerry Katona]

Where was this?

[Paolo]

It was in, in the club. Went for Heidi's birthday.

[Kerry Katona]

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[Paolo]

So I was sat downstairs around the

[Kerry Katona]

corner and I could hear Love with me.

[Paolo]

I could hear some commotion and I could hear Kerry on the stairs.

[Kerry Katona]

I made it loud so I knew he could hear me.

[Paolo]

And then when she came down, I just said, you know, you're. Is everything all right? Oh, yeah, just some boisterous guys upstairs. Nothing else of it. Then it got busier and these lads must have come downstairs and prior to us leaving, we always just had a couple of drinks celebrating Heidi's birthday. Car's just polite to everyone. Like Carrie's just, you know, polite. And as we were walking, they were like quite rough looking lads. Like there were a couple of them. Kerry go up and said, oh, this is my partner. And I shut this guy's hand firm. And he didn't like it because he was obviously potentially jealous. And he's like, why are you shaking my hand like that? Trying to start something. And I just said, you know, shake everyone's hand.

[Kerry Katona]

First things I've been throwing in a

[Paolo]

taxi, it's respect and confidence and, and, and. And then he said to his mate, he says, oh, shake his on like that. So I did exactly the same. And then the next thing, the one of the lads was on the phone. And within five minutes, 20 or 30 lads had run through the door to these boys. Kerry hadn't noticed. She was oblivious. So I, I was in a bit of a panic then because, you know, I'm on my own. The situation. And there'd been a couple of fights in this place already.

[Paul]

Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

[Paolo]

So I just.

[Kerry Katona]

This is so dispersion because we don't go out like that.

[Paolo]

I just. No, we don't go out. That's the thing. And so I just, I was like. I pushed Kerry. I said, get in a taxi now, please. So she got in the taxi and I was panicky. I was a bit cross because I was like, we've created a situation there that didn't need to happen. Yeah. I was like, what are you playing at? And I didn't mean it out of nastiness. I was just. I, I could see that two minutes later I could have been in a very sticky situation. Yes. On my own, you know, and I don't need that job. I mean, I don't, I don't need that.

[Kerry Katona]

And this is, this is one of the reasons why I isolate.

[Paolo]

But, you know, I'm as well equally if somebody, he's coming to me with a bit of disrespect, I won't say or project myself, but I'll hold myself well. Do you know what I mean? I'm not gonna be bullied.

[Paul]

Right. All right, so on this note, I have another surprise for you guys.

[Kerry Katona]

Fucking hell.

[Paolo]

What?

[Kerry Katona]

It's a merry, pompous looking sofa.

[Paolo]

It is.

[Paul]

This is. Now, you could say as much or as little as you want, but as a good interviewer, I have to present this.

[Paolo]

I know what this is. I know what this is. There's gonna be four horribles and you it.

[Kerry Katona]

So, so, so no, no, no other AIs. We wasn't actually there.

[Paul]

Oh, so you have AI now.

[Paolo]

I met Elon last week, you know, I didn't meet Elon.

[Kerry Katona]

No comment. I am not giving this any oxygen. Jo, we love Kate to it.

[Paolo]

I really love Kate. I think she's amazing.

[Kerry Katona]

That's all I said, not giving it any oxygen. I don't agree with all the choices she makes.

[Paolo]

Do you know what, Kit? One on one as a person.

[Kerry Katona]

Amazing is amazing.

[Paolo]

Right? I've met her, you know, enough times to make a judgment of her. I think she's an incredible person. I think I really do. I think she wants to be loved. I think she deserves to be loved. I really genuinely sincerely mean that. And I think she's an amazing person. And Kerry speaks nothing but good about K. She's like twins.

[Paul]

You know what? That's. That's, that's all that's needed.

[Kerry Katona]

Because it's not my story to tell Paul.

[Paul]

Yeah. All right, so then let's move on.

[Paolo]

Yep.

[Paul]

Are you two moving to Spain?

[Paolo]

The plan's there. Yeah, the plan. Really?

[Paul]

The plan potentially is there, like, moving moving or. Really?

[Paolo]

I've wanted to move there. I wanted to move out of the uk and you.

[Kerry Katona]

No, I did, I did.

[Paolo]

Listen, I found Gambas pill pill first.

[Kerry Katona]

Nope. Gambas pill Pill's my. I've done you. Danielle will tell you. Right. So this is the thing. This is.

[Paolo]

We are like two peas in a potty.

[Paul]

I mean, I can see.

[Kerry Katona]

This is. This is the weirdest, weirdest thing ever. This is this invisible line theory.

[Paolo]

Invisible string theory.

[Kerry Katona]

String theory is so crazy. You could not make this up. So, June, before we started filming Cubs Go Dating, I was supposed to move into Spain. I looked at an apartment in Estepona. Didn't end up doing it. Went through a breakup, blah, blah, blah. All that shite. Previous years to that. I've been going to Estepona and renting a penthouse, taking the children and then renting a normal house in this really beautiful area. There's no tourists or anything. Right. That's where I wanted to move with the kids.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

Turns out the building that I'm renting, this apartment, Paolo owns the apartment in it. And he's like going a bit like.

[Paolo]

So we've got an apartment block. There's an apartment block and we own an apartment there. And they're two or three blocks down in the same apartment.

[Kerry Katona]

I stayed there with my children. And then we went there to do the plant medicine's going on. This is so weird. How have we never met?

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

And then we'll walk in to get a coffee because, like, Paolo thinks this is a secret place that no one's ever seen before. I know it's my secret place. I know. Like the back of my hand, he's gone. There's a restaurant, but he's never been. I went. The woman. Picture the wall. I've been, you know, it's stealing my thunder.

[Paolo]

You know what I mean?

[Kerry Katona]

So. But it's just so crazy. And then we're walking back from getting a coffee. Kerry, like, yeah. He said, you don't remember me, dear? I went, no. He said, I was your lawyer. I've had many. Will you be married to Mark Croft? We started chatting away and that. He said, oh, we've got an apartment just over there. He told us what built. Not that building is.

[Paolo]

It was the one underneath it and they've owned it for the same length of time.

[Kerry Katona]

I mean, the six points of separation is just.

[Paolo]

Yeah, it's wild.

[Kerry Katona]

There's too many in syncs of our. I truly believe our souls are meant to be. I really, truly, truly believe. I truly believe.

[Paul]

So then on this note, Pel, if I can ask you this.

[Paolo]

Yeah, of course.

[Paul]

Because this recurring theme in at least what Carrie continues to say is she can't believe that you want to. Why would you want to be with her? I see this recurring theme. So I would imagine part of what you're thinking, Carrie, is why would you want to marry me?

[Paolo]

Because Kerry. Easy. Because Kerry, as a human being gives me everything that I've ever needed in a human being. All the things that I've missed out on. She's given me everything in one go, as well as a headache. Let me just put that in there. But she does. Kerry gives me everything that I need. And that's why what we've got is so beautiful. I think without us realizing we understood each other more. And this happens, you know, subconsciously, you can be. Have a positive trauma bomb with someone or a negative trauma bond. Yes, I've experienced a lot of negative trauma bonds in my life. The only positive one I've ever experienced is with Kerry, where everything is not black and white, it's in color. Like everything that we experience together is in color. And that's the only way that I can explain it to somebody, is that she makes the picture colorful in more ways than one. Yeah, it is. But you know, if I could explain it. It turns a picture from black and white to color.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Paolo]

And that's all I've ever wanted from a person, is the support, understanding, love, you know, and she gives me all of that in abundance.

[Paul]

Have you ever felt this level of love in your life romantically?

[Paolo]

No. No. No. And I don't want to say that disrespectfully. You know, I've got two beautiful children from. From my ex partner. You know, we're getting on amazing, but I don't think I've ever had or experienced what Kerry gives me in a loving relationship. Okay. And I'm very appreciative and grateful for that. I am really, you know, even like the children, like her children. It's, you know, I'm not trying to be a father figure to them. I'm just treating them as I would my own children. But in a more grown up way, which I've never done. It's a learning curve. Right. But, you know, even when taking Max out driving, buying him his first suit, you know, I bought him, it was a expensive suit, but, you know, it deserved it as first suit. Her kids have been through a lot and she's done an incredible job. Absolutely phenomenal. She has on her own incredible job. And I'm just glad, you know, that I'm able to add value to her and add a, you know, a different perspective to the children as well, and show them a love from somebody who's not their mother. You know, I'm not doing it to achieve anything. I'm just doing it because that's part of who I am. Right, the identity.

[Paul]

Right, the identity, Absolutely.

[Paolo]

I love it. Like, you know, seeing Max, like, taking him out for his drive. We took him out in his car the other day for the first time and, you know, it was a really heartfelt moment seeing how happy he was in the car.

[Kerry Katona]

And the kids don't come to the bedroom. See me.

[Paolo]

They do, they do.

[Kerry Katona]

No, they don't. Get up, boy.

[Paolo]

Get up, boy. It's nice. And it's been challenging, like, you know, to come in. I felt very intimidated coming in because I had to build a relationship. And they had a great relationship with Ryan, like, you know, fair play. They had an amazing relationship with Ryan. I'm not trying to compete with that. It was hard. It was hard coming to that. I'm like, hell, like, this is a lot.

[Paul]

Yeah. I, I, I think the challenge that you had was it was like this long list of, okay, you're marrying into,

[Kerry Katona]

you know, you know, we're not very dry.

[Paul]

You are, you are, you are. What do we say? You're committed dating? Well, actually, what would you call life partners?

[Paolo]

Life partners are.

[Kerry Katona]

If he calls me girlfriend. It makes me want to talk.

[Paolo]

Yeah, I was gonna say yeah.

[Paul]

What are you.

[Kerry Katona]

Nah, I say me partner.

[Paul]

Partner.

[Kerry Katona]

Yeah. I feel about 12 when he calls me his girlfriend. Oh, a day when he.

[Paul]

So your life partner.

[Paolo]

100%. That's what it is.

[Kerry Katona]

Your bra.

[Paul]

Do you believe you two will get married?

[Paolo]

Married, 100%. Because you've been asked the question of who's gonna.

[Paul]

I mean, has he been asked?

[Kerry Katona]

Has he been asked?

[Paul]

I don't know.

[Paolo]

Has he been asked? I thought you asked him the question of, I don't know.

[Paul]

I don't know

[Kerry Katona]

I'd marry Paolo and help you. But it does scare me.

[Paul]

Okay?

[Kerry Katona]

It does scare me.

[Paul]

So he says a hundred percent, you said that 100.

[Kerry Katona]

It does scare me. I just. I'm scared.

[Paolo]

But, you know, I want to make it clear that, I mean, there's no rush here, right. You know, there's comments from people saying if she was really the one, why we're not not proposed yet. Because I'll do it when I feel well. Because I've got till you.

[Kerry Katona]

I'm getting old. I'm not walking down that bastard aisle with a Zimmer frame 49 and a half, right? No, I'm not waiting that long, baby. Don't want soggy skin in a dress.

[Paolo]

But also, all seriousness, like, everything else has happened. So naturally I feel, why start to follow?

[Kerry Katona]

Because everyone keeps asking these questions, like, don't feel bad. I can handle it. I know, but it's kind of rude it a little bit. It's like, let us do it in our time. Whenever you want to do it.

[Paolo]

It's all outside noise.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Paolo]

Like, we've discussed what we want to do. We've discussed the planet. Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

We want you now. This is true. We want you to go yourself certified and want you to marry us. It's not April Fools certificate now. I'm not getting married with me jam.

[Paolo]

And for that I've got another surprise.

[Paul]

Actually, I have a surprise. We could get married right now. I'm certified. Can we do this right now? Would you like to be married right now?

[Kerry Katona]

You're lying.

[Paul]

Would you like to be married right now?

[Kerry Katona]

No, you're lying.

[Paul]

Would you like to be married right now?

[Paolo]

Let's do it.

[Kerry Katona]

No, no. About the kids.

[Paolo]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

Not about the children.

[Paul]

You know, I respect that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. No, no.

[Kerry Katona]

I mean, my kids killed me.

[Paul]

Yeah. In a heartbeat.

[Kerry Katona]

My children there. My son will w me down. I think. I think. I think it'd be brilliant. I think. I think it means so much. I think it's. We would. I was like, I just pass to Mario.

[Paul]

I'd say, I'm going to wait for the call and I will be there. My Balenciaga,

[Kerry Katona]

so nice with his trousers.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

Nice suit.

[Paul]

Yes, yes, yes. I love it. I love it. And to your point, though, is on your own time. This is no one else's clock but yours.

[Paolo]

Like a deer in headlights.

[Kerry Katona]

I was like, if they're all going to come out. I was like, if my kids and your kids are here in a heartbeat, but not without my children. Never do that to them. They'd kill me.

[Paul]

Look at that. All right, so now, talking about children, do you two believe that you will have more children?

[Paolo]

We spoke about this. Recently we did the. Okay, shoot. And I said to Kerry, so Kerry had a traumatic birth with dj, left her quite poorly. Like, you know, life threatening.

[Kerry Katona]

DJ died.

[Paolo]

Yeah, very life threatening.

[Kerry Katona]

DJ was on life support for four days. Like a center erupted and I nearly died. It was horrendous. Traumatized me.

[Paolo]

And. And there's a.

[Kerry Katona]

She walked out. But

[Paul]

I never know how to react to Carrie. Like, should I be laughing at this? Is it a joke? Is it real?

[Kerry Katona]

DJ stopped breathing when she was born. Soon as she came out, I thought, something's not right with this baby. She was born with six fingers on each hand, which is from ancestry tribe, from Georgie's tribe, from Nigeria.

[Paul]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Kerry Katona]

So it's something. I don't know, but she was. And she just stopped breathing.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

And the article, CPR on her, on her heart. Like, oh, it's horrendous. And then my center erupted. So I nearly died. And then she nearly died. And they was telling me to give the baby name. She's not going to make it. It was horrendous. But the doctor said to me it was a one off. It was. There was nothing. Just one of those things.

[Paolo]

So, yeah, I would have a child with Kerry tomorrow. I would definitely. But as it's gotta be circumstantial to the fact that Kerry would be fit and healthy because of your child, it would be very selfish of me to want that with Kerry when she's got five beautiful, amazing children who love and need Kerry to be fit and healthy.

[Kerry Katona]

And I didn't realize and I didn't want any more kids.

[Paolo]

And so the idea is amazing. The practicality has to be addressed and looked into. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Kerry was unknowingly pregnant at the finale of Celebs Go Dating. Seriously? Yeah, yeah. Found out in the morning. I could. I could smell it on her. Like, weird. I said, you're pregnant.

[Paul]

I could smell it on the finale of Celebs. God.

[Paolo]

I was like, you're pregnant. And she was like, no, I'm not.

[Kerry Katona]

No, no. I kept getting these hormonal spots and we. I'm shaking. And we did a test in the night and he said, no. I said, I'll do it early morning. And so we had the pen. We had an apartment at the. The hotel. I got up early, so I felt go to my meditation. In other words, I won't wake him up. And I peed on the stick. This is exclusive. No one have not gone public with this. Not told anybody this. Apart from Anna. Don't get Jealous. And nothing came out. So I went doing meditation. I thought, I'm just going to pop this spot. I went back and went, no, no, no, no way. I ran and woke him up. Seven years and I fell pregnant.

[Paolo]

Yeah. But she's like, she was panicking then because she was like, at the finale she's like, everyone's gonna know.

[Paul]

Everyone's gonna know.

[Kerry Katona]

Everyone's a no.

[Paolo]

So. So like, obviously then we went through it and said like, you know, and

[Kerry Katona]

then the thought of having an abortion

[Paolo]

killed me because it wasn't intentional, by the way.

[Kerry Katona]

It felt like it was made from love.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Kerry Katona]

I thought I couldn't have kids, but because it's seven years, I never, never got pregnant. Not once. Not once. Not once in seven years I get pregnant by Ryan. Not once. Nothing. And so I thought, oh, I'm all right, I'm at that age.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

Bam. And unfortunately I miscarried.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

And then we tried.

[Paul]

Okay, then you tried again.

[Kerry Katona]

And we tried. Eventually told the girls and the kids, not Paula's youngest ones, obviously,

[Paolo]

but at that point then, you know, I could sense the kids felt a bit uncomfortable

[Kerry Katona]

about it, getting nervous. But they eventually came around with it

[Paolo]

as well to an extent. But I also acknowledged their feelings and what they were saying.

[Kerry Katona]

And I didn't realize how much I'd miscarried again only at four weeks.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

And that was. I didn't realize how much I wanted it then.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

And that was just before Christmas.

[Paolo]

Yeah. So then. Yeah. It's just what it's like, it's something now.

[Kerry Katona]

I never thought I'd get pregnant. I never ever thought. If it happens, it happens. We went and got tested. I've got follicles, you know, these sorts of things.

[Paolo]

You tried to know it, didn't you?

[Kerry Katona]

I just wanted to know, just, you know, and if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, if it's meant to be, it's meant to be. So timing's right. Timing's right.

[Paul]

Okay. Salah, I'm very sorry to hear.

[Kerry Katona]

It's one of those things. I mean, it's never happened to me

[Paul]

before, you know, to also to see what you two were going through in that moment. Now when I reflect back, there was a lot more obviously happening than everyone celebrating what's happening. But you are.

[Kerry Katona]

I was pregnant.

[Paul]

You were pregnant.

[Paolo]

Do you know what the crazy thing is, Paul? This is a great point as well. You don't on a day to day basis. You never know what's going on in someone's life.

[Kerry Katona]

So you should Never judge anybody.

[Paolo]

And this is the thing. Like, some people have so much going on. You know, you see them pictures of. Of, like a bird's eye view of loads of people walking in one place. And each one's got something going through the head and the mind. You just don't know what's going on in someone's reality in that. In that moment.

[Kerry Katona]

And that's why we had to be so careful, because we have mics on as well.

[Paolo]

It's important to just, you know, treat everybody that you meet with the same level of respect and just be kind, you know, I mean, in a world that's not very. Is it? We're in a world that's not very kind right now.

[Paul]

No, it's not. But the beautiful thing is I see that there's a higher level of kindness towards Carrie. There's a higher level of kindness now that's probably shepherded to you as a result of that. And that to me is. And I love that. Like, I really, really love that. I love that for both of you, because I've interviewed many people who have had the press literally destroy them to the point where they still relive the trauma, and it impacts how they show up, and they haven't been able to grow through it. And to my point earlier with you, Carrie, is that you've been able to grow through the trauma.

[Paolo]

No, I don't need a shit. I actually don't need a shit. I'm so sorry.

[Paul]

I tell you what, it's okay for me. Carrie is the one who has an issue with your stomach.

[Paolo]

Loud. Bella never makes that noise.

[Kerry Katona]

It's like it won't get involved.

[Paolo]

Yeah.

[Kerry Katona]

It's like, hey, I want your thoughts, love.

[Paolo]

It's not growing in there.

[Paul]

What do you think about marriage? But, yeah, just. I think it is beautiful to see this. Can I end then with the final question? But Carrie's already received this question, so she is now disqualified from being able to answer this question. This is only Paolo's question. We're going to see if she can sit and not say a word. Paola.

[Paolo]

Yes.

[Paul]

You've had some incredible conversations in your life. When you think about the most memorable. Who was it with? And what did you learn?

[Paolo]

There's a few in there. There's a few in there. I think actually one of the most impactful conversations I actually had was in Ibiza with Kerry, where we was really opening up and talking about the past. And one of my things was I really struggled with emotion. So I push it, stuffed it in, and I've always done that. It's something that I've always. I've stuffed it and stuffed it and stuffed it because. Not because I didn't want to show. It's because I never. I didn't know how to, or I didn't have the tools to be able to do it. And even though I'd done all the therapy and stuff, there was one conversation that we had and I'd asked myself a rhetorical question. And it was the first time in probably in a long time that I burst into tears. Inconsolably, actually. And it wasn't necessarily something that had been said to me, but it was because we'd had a conversation and I asked myself a certain question. It made me think and realize that maybe the answers I was looking for weren't from somebody else. Maybe it was from inside of me and what I was doing with, you know, and creating with my children, you know, and the person I was becoming. So it wasn't necessarily something that someone had said. It was a situation that I'd had with somebody that I really trust and confide in that had allowed me to ask myself that rhetorical question in that moment. That opened a door that had never been opened. And that was really powerful, that was really impactful.

[Paul]

I will say that like, you know, many. We love seeing the two of you. It is, try to say, this is

[Kerry Katona]

the longest I've been. Kai. This is so fucking difficult.

[Paolo]

You're doing amazing, babe. I'm really proud of you.

[Paul]

You know what? Actually, I was going to say Carrie wasn't quiet throughout the whole thing. Did you notice? She jumped in.

[Paolo]

There she goes like she wants to.

[Paul]

And then she pulled on Max. She was like, I'm just gonna let

[Kerry Katona]

him tell a story.

[Paul]

I didn't want to, but you two are phenomenal together. Truly. Truly. Carrie, I'm so happy to have known you for a long time. Right? Yeah, but to see the light and then to know what the next chapter holds for you. Right? And then Paolo, like you are just. You're 10. 10.

[Paolo]

I appreciate you.

[Paul]

You're 10. 10. What I love, love, love. You just repeated what Carrie said. And that is that you can see the lessons in the mud, right? This is Carrie's through line. She wouldn't change a thing. She sees the lessons. She sees how it's become. Made her better. You show up in life the same way. You two are supremely perfect for each other. And I can't wait for the wedding.

[Paolo]

You'll be there up the front.

[Paul]

I mean, I will Be there. Round. It feels like this is technically round three, I believe. I have never been roasted as much as in this conversation, and I enjoyed every second of it. I had no idea that she had, like, the big production companies and networks reach out to her to cover her life story as a part of her first conversation with us. That is incredible. Amazing. It needs to happen because she has such a. Such a profound story. The we need to Talk community is so incredible on uplifting our guests. And for Carrie, walking into this space, she had never done a full length podcast. She sits down, she bears her soul. She's thinking she will be judged or evaluated or critiqued. But here she is being uplifted and held and loved and respected as a result of that. And that has happened because of how great our community is. So I think we're blessed and we're privileged to have such a kind community. You know, shocker. To learn that they've had multiple miscarriages, but also that Carrie was pregnant during the finale filming of Celebs Go Dating. And for Paolo to turn to Carrie knowing that she's pregnant and to say, I am here for you, was probably all she needed to know that he was authentically in love with her. And that, to me, goes to show that love will come at the most unexpected times in the most unexpected packages.

[Kerry Katona]

We broke up because he thought I was having an affair.

[Paul]

But you didn't want to break up with me.

[Kerry Katona]

No. I have never in 30 years read a good headline about me. Never. Katie Price. Katie Price.

[Paul]

Katie Price.

[Kerry Katona]

Every relationship I've been in, I've been cheated on. And jj, he's the most kindest, genuine person. But do I feel my most happiest?

[Paul]

I have never heard anyone that has the life experience that you have and is standing today.

[Kerry Katona]

The police said to us, you're so lucky that you weren't killed. I took coke because it blocked everything. And then I tried to commit suicide. I had a black eye and marks around my neck. What the are you doing, Kate? I would never wish it on my worst enemy if I got through it. Anyone can. But you have to want to do it. There's so much in my life that I smile about that no one knows really what I have achieved. I work hard. I'm a single mum. I run the ship. I don't need a man.

[Paul]

Can I give you a little surprise?

[Kerry Katona]

Oh, what the have you done?

[Paul]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments.

[Paolo]

But that's weird.

[Paul]

Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Kerry Katona]

of $45 per 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Paul]

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