Michelle Heaton: The Truth About Popstars & My Hidden Addictions “I Couldn’t Stop”

Summary

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Podcast Summary: We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson

Episode: Michelle Heaton: The Truth About Popstars & My Hidden Addictions “I Couldn’t Stop”
Date: May 12, 2026

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Overview

In this deeply candid and emotional episode, Paul C. Brunson sits down with singer Michelle Heaton (of Liberty X fame) for an unflinching examination of the realities behind pop stardom, her struggles with hidden addictions, and the pivotal moments of self-reflection and recovery that have shaped her life. The conversation moves from Michelle’s upbringing in Gateshead to the heights of her music career, through personal turmoil, addiction, recovery, and the grace found in second chances. Listeners are offered a front-row seat to Michelle’s vulnerability, humor, and resilience.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Childhood and Upbringing

• Michelle’s identity as a Geordie:
  "I consider myself a Geordie, definitely. Yeah." (03:42)
  She explains the geographical and cultural dynamics of Gateshead and Newcastle.

• Growing up on a council estate:
  Michelle reflects on a loving but emotionally reserved family, observing how a lack of expressing emotions shaped her own internal world.
  "We didn't really talk ever so much about our feelings and what was going on. My head was always in the land of fantasy." (04:56)

• Early body image issues:
  Michelle recalls being weighed in front of peers, feeling shame and its lasting impact:
  "That shame... is a lot to do with my then problems with eating and binging going forward." (07:04)

2. The Pop Stars Journey

• Auditioning for Popstars:
  Detailing her pursuit, near-misses, and eventual place as a Liberty X founding member.
  "We were told throughout the whole process...the losers couldn't do anything. It was just the winners...And so when we announced that we wanted to start as a band, it was news to them." (22:14)

• Formation of Liberty X:
  Serendipitous moments and the significance of Richard Branson noticing them:
  "Richard Branson was watching the TV show we were on...and would love to sign us. And that was that day." (23:07)

• "Flop Stars" and media pressure:
  How the press manufactured rivalry and labeled them “Flop Stars,” rooting for their failure.
  "Flop Stars, wannabes, the Five Losers. And it was evident that they wanted us to fail." (25:26)

• Liberty X's eventual commercial success:
  "We had three albums and we had a big, massive sellout tour. We won a Brit Award...Ultimately Liberty X were more successful than Hearsay." (35:43)

3. Life in the Pop World—The Realities

• Glamour vs. Grit:
  Stories of surreal moments, wild industry parties, and the unique freedom of pre-social media pop star life:
  "There are people in that pool that I will never tell. That never came out. Because we weren't overrun by social media back then." (29:49)

• Sexism, harassment, and industry exploitation:
  Michelle gives frank accounts of workplace harassment and the lack of support:
  "He got me up against the wall…There was people around, people saw it, turned a blind eye, didn't see anything." (15:16)

4. Addiction and Mental Health

• Early signs and escalation:
  Binge eating, diet pill abuse, and the early role of amphetamines in weight control:
  "Speed was the first thing that I kind of noted didn't make me hungry." (53:00)

• Alcohol and identity:
  "I don't remember ever doing a gig sober...I couldn't stop. I could not stop eating. And I have absolutely no filter when it comes to food. I still have that today." (61:41)
  Alcohol becomes interwoven with performance, social acceptance, and self-worth.

• Pill abuse and health crises:
  Hospitalization after years of using unregulated pills (hidden cocaine):
  "They found copious amounts of caffeine in my blood and traces of...cocaine, but I had never done cocaine, actually, at this point." (56:11)

• Transition to dependency:
  Addiction escalates following trauma and life changes (e.g., hysterectomy, menopause):
  "I lost all my identity, everything I thought I knew by myself. I had no idea who I was." (66:29)

• The spiral & family impact:
  Addiction's effect on her marriage and motherhood:
  "I was being sick and it was blood, and I couldn't wake up until I couldn't get out of bed, until I had a drink. That's if I woke up." (78:26)
  “I was doing it all, you know, with the cocaine thing. It's like I only did coke when somebody else was doing it too. And so that’s why I thought I didn’t have a problem.” (73:30)

5. Intervention and Recovery

• Failed interventions and manipulation:
  "I talked my way out of it...I promised. And at that point, I really meant it because I hadn't tried to stop." (85:00)

• The turning point – Katie Price’s intervention:
  "Kate had something I didn't in that moment in time, which was sobriety...She read out all these questions that she got told in the Priory. And I answered yes, yes, yes to every single one of them while crying and drinking." (93:11)

• Entering rehab and the path out:
  Emotional family supports, disclosures, and the crucial importance of seeing oneself reflected in another’s journey.
  "I took my last drink at her house...And her son walked in and said, auntie Michelle, you're not meant to be doing that, are you?" (97:41)
  "What I had on my mind was menopause and how I felt. And so when you're bringing that to a night out with your girlfriends, it's not exactly a hot topic. And I got my kick from drinking alcohol." (68:13)

6. Reflections on Grace, Self-Blame, Motherhood & The Future

• BRCA2 and health decisions:
  The rapid, emotionally charged choices to undergo preventative surgeries.
  "I was visually prepared for just this. Let's just get it done...I had the scars there, and I had no feeling in my breasts. I didn't even think about the consequences of breastfeeding." (108:01)

• Enduring patterns of self-blame:
  “It’s easier to blame myself than for pity.” (117:26)
  Paul gently encourages Michelle towards self-forgiveness:
  "Did you do the best you could at the time with the information you had?...Then you give yourself grace." (118:28)

• Family and gratitude:
  Messages from her bandmates and children, and her husband Hugh’s touching letter, bring Michelle tears and pride.
  "You didn't just overcome addiction, you reclaimed your life. And you’ve made our life full of love and happiness again every day." – Hugh’s letter (120:59)

• Looking back and moving forward:
  Michelle’s ultimate takeaway is gratitude despite the pain:
  "I ultimately have come away from this not feeling poor me. Like, yeah, I've had a shit show, but just how lucky I am..." (125:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I don’t remember ever doing a gig sober. I was struggling behind the scenes with my addictions. I would binge eat and then I would go and get drunk and then I’d start again.” – Michelle Heaton (01:36)
• “If it wasn’t for the rest of the Liberty X members, I don’t think I would have got through it as well as that I did, but we had each other and that’s what made our strength.” – Michelle Heaton (27:45)
• “We were constantly battled against each other in a world that we were trying to navigate. You know, we didn’t have...media training. It was just...we didn’t know when to stop talking or what not to say.” (25:33)
• “I felt numb for quite a while and I just didn’t want to get out of bed, just didn’t want to do anything...the easiest way I can describe it is that before I had testosterone, I felt in a mode of depression.” – Michelle Heaton (67:55)
• “Towards the end, with drink and drugs...my punishment would be to drink more. Our marriage only worked because he was able to part mentalize what was happening to me and focus on the kids and himself.” (78:26)
• “The turning point for me...Kate had something I didn't in that moment, which was sobriety. If she could do it, maybe I could.” – Michelle Heaton (94:49)
• "I am honored by what you just said...But you are also loved by us, you know what I mean? You are loved and adored by us, and we all want you to continue to shine your light." – Paul (127:29)
• “Everything happens for a reason, in that order, to make you the person that you are today.” – Michelle Heaton (126:33)

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Key Timestamps

• Early body image and eating issues: 07:04
• Popstars and Liberty X formation: 09:59–23:07
• Media rivalry and pressure: 25:26–27:45
• Liberty X highs, touring stories, and industry life: 28:14–32:12
• Addiction development and hospital scare: 53:00–56:45
• Alcoholism and family impact: 66:29–79:02
• Failed intervention, manipulation, and the descent: 84:20–88:23
• Katie Price’s intervention and the decision for rehab: 93:09–97:41
• Reflections on grace/self-forgiveness: 117:18–118:28
• Husband’s letter and family appreciation: 120:59–122:39
• Michelle’s retrospective gratitude and wisdom: 125:49–127:06

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Final Reflections

Michelle Heaton’s episode is an extraordinary portrait of a woman whose public glamour masked devastating private battles. It’s a story of survival, redemption, and the power of having honest – often painful – conversations. The episode is, at its heart, a testament to both vulnerability and hope, echoing the core theme of "We Need To Talk": that the conversations we most avoid are the ones that ultimately set us free.

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Listen if you want:

• A raw, detailed account on the realities of 2000s pop stardom
• Insight into the intersection of fame, addiction, mental health, and recovery
• To hear moving testimonies of friendship and family love, and how humility and honesty transform lives

Transcript

[Michelle Heaton]

This episode is brought to you by. Prime Obsession is in session. And this summer, prime originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories. And the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus. Elle every year after the love Hypothesis, Sterling Point and more slow burns, second chances chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime Focus Features.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

In Blumhouse present Obsession.

[Michelle Heaton]

When I have a crush on a guy no one knows, Be careful. I wish Nikki loved me more than

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

anyone in the entire world. Who you wish for. Obsession is 96% fresh on rotten Tomatoes.

[Michelle Heaton]

I love you so, so, so, so much.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

It's blood soaked nightmare fuel. Brooke's bullet you put on her. You have been warned. Obsession. Rated R under 17. Animated without parent only theaters May 15 with special engagements in Dolby.

[Michelle Heaton]

As I'm to go in the car to leave, there was a bottle of gin and I downed it. And her son walked in and said, auntie Michelle, you're not meant to be doing that, are you? Michelle Heaton.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Michelle Heaton. The winner is Liberty X. Liberty X. International success. You had 10 consecutive top 20 singles

[Michelle Heaton]

growing up, had this absolute vision of being a pop band. Richard Branson was watching the TV show. We were on pop stars and would love to sign us. It was just so much fun.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Who was it that called you? All the flop stars.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay. I believe it was.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Really. I didn't realize how low it actually got for you.

[Michelle Heaton]

I don't remember ever doing a gig sober. I was struggling behind the scenes with my addictions. I would binge eat and then I would go and get drunk and then I'd start again. I was outed by my manager. He said, you can't wait. I was the only one of the three girls in that shoot to wear a dress because I couldn't fit into the cat seat. I lost everything I thought I knew by myself. I was really scared.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

What were you scared of, Michelle? Can I show you something? Hey there. Before we begin the episode, I just want to say thank you for choosing we need to talk. Doing this podcast is one of the greatest joys of my life and I want to continue to share it with you. So hit follow and the bell icon. It takes just a second and it helps us to continue to grow this podcast. Michelle Heaton, we need to talk. Just like that. We're talking.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay. Where I think we should begin is ironically, where I was yesterday. Oh, this is. Is it Gateshead that you.

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, my God. Gateshead. What are you doing in Gateshead?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

All right, So I was close by.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay, what's the closest in Newcastle?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Newcastle.

[Michelle Heaton]

All right. Okay. You can't say that because Gateshead and Newcastle are separ by the River Tyne. So you can't say you were in gated when you weren't in gated.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

So different.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay, so help me understand this because it seems like there is a line.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yes.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And also there's a lot. The line also means if you are Geordie or not.

[Michelle Heaton]

That's correct, yes. So the line is, you know, Newcastle, you're Geordie, and then there's Gateshead after the River Thyne, and then the Sunderland. If you're in Sunderland, you're a Mackam.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

A mackam.

[Michelle Heaton]

You call them mackam. Now, Gates is that gray area where I think most of the people in there would say that they're Geordie and they support Newcastle United. But it definitely infiltrates into Sunderland.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So what do you consider yourself?

[Michelle Heaton]

I consider myself a Geordie, definitely. Yeah. No, all my friends will be watching this. I'm definitely a Geordie, but I was never really a massive football fan and those terms came because of the football teams.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay, all right, fair, fair. But what was Gateshead like? What was. How would you describe it growing up?

[Michelle Heaton]

Ooh. I mean, Gateshead was predominantly council estate and so I got brought up on a council estate. My mum and dad managed to buy the house off the council. You know, back then I think it was like 15, 20 grand or something. You know, we're talking like 1970s, 1980s. I don't know whether I've put, like the blinkers on a lot of my childhood or not, because I can't really articulate what it was like for me. I know that, you know, I had two great parents, they loved me and my brother David. And I had no problems at home, you know, the usual arguments. My mom and dad consequently broke up, but it wasn't a bad house. I didn't live in a house where there was addictions or alcoholism or abuse or anything like that. It was just normal. My dad and his family, you know, and my mum, I suppose, you know, we didn't really talk about things, especially my dad's side of the family. He had a really tough upbringing and I suppose he learned to. When things needed to be said or emotions to kind of dull that. And so we didn't really talk ever so much about our feelings and what was going on. My head was always in the land of fantasy.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Interesting.

[Michelle Heaton]

So I was always imagining what my life could or will look like. So what served me well, I think growing up was that I had this absolute vision, like this tunnel vision of what I wanted out of life. And it was to be in a pot, man. My first ever memory was watching Bucks Fizz. Making your mind up where they whipped off the skirts and making your mind up. And they take the skirts off on Eurovision. I just held onto that, you know, car journeys. I would just listen to music, you know, and we'll walkman and imagine I was in the music video and you know, I was gonna have these amazing boyfriends. All of them were really old at the time. You know, a 10 year old girl thinking that I'm gonna be shaking Stephen's girlfriend was a bit weird. But to me it never felt weird.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

Because I saw myself in that position.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes. Can I show you something?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I have lots of surprises for you, Michelle.

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, wow. Oh no. A lot.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Lots of surprises. Okay, this is a good one. This is a good one.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay, this is good.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

You ready for it?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Thanks. I want you to tell me what is happening to this person in this moment.

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh my gosh.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, yes. So who is this?

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, wow.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

What is happening to her in that moment?

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay, so she is 16, I believe, because I recognize that Blazer's in the sixth form and I've just won Miss Haven and I think. And the talent show. So that's Miss Haven, which is a beauty competition. And she is. She has a perm.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

She's a perm.

[Michelle Heaton]

She has what looks like a perm. And I have red hair. And I remember going into school with the awards and it's a very different reaction at school. Like I wasn't popular. I wasn't popular. I had. I had good friends that were in the unpopular group. Kind of a drifter. Any boy I dated was in the year of law or the year of law that. So I dated younger boys. Cause nobody in my year was interested in. So I. It doesn't look it, but I was a little bit big. You know, a little bit big. But back then at school they used to weigh us in PE and all the girls had to wear these tiny shorts. And we were lined up and I remember looking at the mirrors in what felt like the greatest big room in the world. But it was probably a tiny little dance studio. And I remember looking at all the girls legs and mine was like the second to biggest, biggest. I was probably about two and a half sworn heavier than what I am now. And I remember us all being weighed in front of each other. And that shame, like, probably shame, is a lot to do with my then problems with eating and binging going forward. But that pivotal moment of being weighed in front of people and having to wear the same outfit as others, like, that's really stuck in me. And so I remember going to my mum and saying, I feel really fat, I'm fat, I look awful, I feel fat. And we weren't the kind of family really to sit around and have big meals with each other, but my mum was a cook in the navy and so she would always make these big things. But I don't really remember us sitting around together. But there was always like shepherd's pie and everything. You know, massive big pies, A pie with everything, pie with pieces. And so I remember saying to her that I really want to. I want to look good, I want to start this fresh new life at drama school and I really want to look good. And back then it was Weight Watchers.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And it was massive. And you know, a shake, a shake and a tiny little bit of food. And I remember doing it for like eight weeks and I did, you know, I lost the puppy flat and the weight and my mum and I did it together. And so I went to college and I felt like a new person and I repressed everything that had happened growing up in school. You know, the not getting the boyfriends, being called Miss Piggy, nobody wanting to go out with me, being last picked for rounders, like, everything was last. And then I was the shiny new girl at drama school. And yeah, I had the best time.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So how do you get onto pop stars?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, so I continuously auditioned for things throughout my late teens and early 20s. I was in numerous girl bands that didn't make it.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, wow.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay. I was managed by the same management company as Cheryl Cole, Cheryl Tweedy. Back then. We performed together in Merrilland we were on a little stage and performed people at weekend. And so my journey before that had been like that. Anyway, I would work a Saturday and Sunday job, work as many hours as I could in a store like Topshop or Tushy. There was all of these old stores back then, Tamigal. And then I would quit my job because I've got enough money now to jump on a train to go to London to audition at Pineapple or wherever. You know, Dance Attic. Pineapple Dance, yeah, Dance Attic, Dance City, wherever. The old school auditions still get held today.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And the reason that I knew auditions were on is because I bought the stage newspaper. So the stage newspaper was a bi weekly paper newspaper that Listed all the auditions and what was happening in the industry. I remember it said, do you want to be the next five? Or Spice Girls? I think it said, we're looking for mixed group. Here's the Orton auditions. And I was like, right, right. I would need to save money for London. But actually they came to Newcastle.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Ah, okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

So I went along to the audition. I had a song prepared. I was gonna sing Everything I Do, I Do it for your by Bryan Adams. That was like my go to. So in that moment, it didn't felt too weird. There was a lot of production around, more than what I was used to.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

But it wasn't anything different.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

So the thought of it being a big massive TV show had been on our horizon.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Cause it was the first one.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

We hadn't seen anything like this before.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

That's true. Cause there's no X Factor at this time. Pop Stars was the first television. What do you call it?

[Michelle Heaton]

Show that came out Manufactured band.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And so for me, it was another audition. And then you got through to the next round and then you got given lyrics to sing. This shows everybody just sing Reach for the Stars from S Club 7. What was different about this was that we were all singing in front of each other.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

I was used to closed auditions, whereas this was open. Everybody was there, sat behind you, and people were cheering you along. And there was so much talent in that room. I thought I had absolutely no chance. And I wasn't a professional anything. I was a professional blogger. I still am. Like I always say, fake it till you make it. I think a lot of people are like that. They just don't want to admit it. And then there was a weekend in Birmingham where there was the final 50 and then London and then that was a week. And then there was the final 10.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Then the final 10. So now, was the show on air while you were going through? No. So it's pre recorded.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yes. So it's all pre recorded. And I had left my dancing gig at the nightclub to do this. And so about a week after they had their final 10, they come to our houses and tell us whether we're in or not. So obviously I didn't get in. And it was six months before they aired the first episode. So we all signed a contract obviously saying that, you know, we wouldn't talk about it.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

So I couldn't say anything to anybody. And back then, you know, now I signed an nd I might telephea viewer. But obviously I was like, I was scared. Like I Was scared about saying the wrong thing. So I didn't say anything to anybody. And I had to beg for my job back. They didn't want to give me my job back. And I was begging because I was like, that was it. Like there was no money, you know. Yeah, that, that was six or five, six months of auditioning just ended. And then I'm back to square one.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I had no job, you know, no career. I was almost 21. And those were like back in those days, the cut off age at which they wanted people to audition.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

So I knew it was kind of like the end. And it was never the same when I got my job back. It was. They didn't treat me. They did not treat me right. And I can say that now. They, it was different. There was a lot of ego at that place at work. And there was a lot going on behind the scenes that should never have happened. Security guards taking their position, you know, of authority to places with us girls that they should never have. Pop Stars was shown on tv. And so every Saturday night, which was our busiest night, it had just been on TV at 7, 7:30. And obviously I'm on it. Can't say what I did, can't say how far I went or whatever like that. And I'm at work. And so there'd be a lot of attention, positive attention from boys because they've just seen me on tv. And it would get more and more each week as the series went on. Obviously ipi'd more and negative attention from girls. And girls are nasty. Girls are really nasty. And so I had that battle every night as well. And so at that point there was a lot of, I'd say wanted and unwanted attention. It felt good to be recognized for something other than just being dressed in a bikini. Forgetting I was dressed in a bikini. There was this one time we all had security men just in case people in the crowd got feisty with us. Cause we were wearing bikinis. And I got 50 quid tip. And the security guy turns around and said to me, you're half nut with me. And I thought he was joking and I kind of laughed it off. And then when we close the nightclub, we have to go up, we have to count our tips and our money. Cause it was all cash based. And he got me up against the wall and he said, I meant it, I want that 25 quid now. And I was. There was people around, people saw it, turned a blind eye, didn't see anything. And I remember just giving him the 50 quid and I had no. I had no option but to show up to work the next day. Like, I had to go back. I don't remember what happened to him. I obviously complained. And the fact that I was going out with the dj, he may have said something to the manager, but everybody was so close and pally. Because other things were happening that I just cracked on.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Michelle Heaton]

And, you know, there was a lot that went on back then, not just with the men who worked there, with the girls. Yeah, it was a lot. It was nasty.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How. How did that period then change you?

[Michelle Heaton]

I settled. I got engaged to the dj. I wasn't really in love. I said yes because I felt important, because he was important at work. And so I felt accepted. I felt important myself because I was with him. Oh, my God. I've got the dj, you know, I've got the main man. And so had others, you know, there was a lot of other women who had the main man. I didn't know at the time.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

All the while, you are appearing on the show and you're getting closer and closer to the finals.

[Michelle Heaton]

That's right.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So then on the show, then on Pop Stars, you get to the final 10. And I find this very interesting because I've talked to Mylene Klass. She was in the final 10. Right. And I understand what happens with her group. But tell me about what happens to you and the forming of Liberty X. Cause I find this to be really interesting.

[Michelle Heaton]

I'm sure Kel is gonna tell me. I've got it wr. I think I have got it slightly wrong. I live in a bit of a bubble as well, Paul, So I kind of imagine things.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

You think differently. Okay, so how do you remember it?

[Michelle Heaton]

So I remember it as we all stayed in touch, the other five, because the five and Hearsay blocked us.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, really? But even.

[Michelle Heaton]

But they were probably told that. But at the time we were sore.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

But even before that, though, so. Because I wasn't here during that time, so I've only seen clips. So then the five that are then selected and when that group becomes Hearsay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yes.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I would imagine they had a contract immediately and they become quite popular.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, huge. You know, there was about six months between me being told I wasn't in. And when the first one was aired, and in that six months, I believe, obviously Mylene would have had a better account of it. That's when they went somewhere. They got their shit together, they learnt dance routines, they recorded music, they did the whole PR thing, you know, changed their phone Numbers, which I knew who was in it as well because I tried to ring them straight after Nasty Nigel said I wasn't in and obviously they weren't picking up because their phones were gone.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So this is where you think that they were told to block.

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, absolutely. 100%. Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

But why? I know that was a different time period, but why?

[Michelle Heaton]

I think it was just all to do with exclusivity and privacy and, you know, NDAs flying around and the fact that they. I don't know. I don't want to put words in their mouths. They can answer that. I don't know if they were told to, you know, block everybody, but we were. And so I believe, or like to believe that wasn't from them. It was from, you know, the voices above management, because we all got on really well. And I wanted to ring Suzanne and, you know, and see how she got on and say, oh, my God, well done. And we didn't get the opportunity to do that, you know, and so I would imagine that wasn't on them.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay, fair, fair. So then you are thinking about what your life is now going to be. What's it going to look like? So how does Liberty X come about?

[Michelle Heaton]

You know, we all stayed in touch and then the time came around where ITV wanted us to come and do a bit of press for the show as the Five Losers. We weren't called the Five Losers by itv, but we subsequently were called that henceforward. And I remember us. My memory of it is that we got together the night before we were due to do Good Morning Britain or one of those shows, or Lorraine. And we were at Kelly's apartment and Tony had arranged an Irish phone interview for radio. And I remember we all started. They asked us to sing. So we all sang Bridge Under Troubled Water, which was the song in which we sang at the auditions. They were like, you guys should be a band. This is my fluffy memory of it. And so we were like, yeah, why not? And so the next day, when we were live on TV and we sang that again, we said, we want to be a band. We're going to be a band. We didn't really know what that looked like. We was like, why not? We weren't signed to ICV or Pop Stars. They never retained us.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

They let us go. That was like. That is. That is basically the main reason why all of these participants in these shows, henceforward, are contracted to an inch of their life going forward, because they missed it with us.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Interesting.

[Michelle Heaton]

They let us go.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So you're saying Specifically because they missed your group.

[Michelle Heaton]

They missed an opportunity to micromanage and take commission from anybody else from that process or from that specific process.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So Liberty X set a precedent there and therefore everyone gets signed.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. Because we were told throughout the whole process until that moment that the losers couldn't do anything. It was just the winners. It was just those five people. It was not us. We were done and that was it. And so when we announced that we wanted to start as a band, it was news to them. And my fluffy kind of rainbow covered memory is that when we announced it, Richard Branson was watching the TV show we were on. I believe it was Lorraine, but Kelly said it was another one. And he rang Lorraine or got in touch with her somehow and said that he wanted. He loved the idea of an underdog and he owned Virgin Records V2 Records and would love to sign us. And that was that day.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, wow.

[Michelle Heaton]

And so I never left London. We, you know, over the course of the next few weeks, Lorraine, also the lovely Lorraine, who's been with my personal journey throughout my whole, whole time, she puts in contact with a manager, which Gary, who subsequently became Liberty X's manager that day as well.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And we got management in the next few weeks who then helped financially relocate us to London until we started getting money from our advances.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And we signed a, you know, a major record label.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

That's incredible.

[Michelle Heaton]

And what's that? It was Johansson, like, over the course of just maybe a few weeks.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. That's incredible.

[Michelle Heaton]

All of this happens and I'm like, this is mental. Like we all thought. This is absolutely insane. We are literally in Richard Branson's house. We are at his record label and we're doing a press conference. And he held me upside down. And Jessica, he poured champagne over her head. All in this unrealistic, like, distorted reality with. We are living right then. And it was mega.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. I don't know about the pouring the champagne over the head, but.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

No, it all sound. I mean, also, you can't make it up. Yeah, you can't make it up. And also those stories don't happen. It feels like it doesn't happen anymore.

[Michelle Heaton]

It just doesn't happen.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Just. You're on tv, he sees you, he's like, hey, I'm assigned you to a deal.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, ok. And he said, you never left London.

[Michelle Heaton]

I mean, I remember going back and grabbing my stuff. And at this point, I'm still engaged to the dj, which was a whole different thing. Excuse Me. Which didn't last, obviously. Yeah, yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So now I want to ask you about this, is that. I know that. Who was it that called you all the Flop Stars? Because that seemed like that was a title that stuck.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yep. From my memory. I believe it was hearsay, but I think it was fueled by press.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Ok.

[Michelle Heaton]

So ultimately press were the ones who labeled us the names.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I see. And almost pinned you two against each other.

[Michelle Heaton]

Absolutely. So there was a war from the get go. As soon as we released that we were gonna be a band and start to release music. We were constantly battled against each other in a world that we were trying to navigate. You know, we didn't have. There were six months prior, like here. They had to adapt to what was coming and a team around them. You know, we were signed to an indie label effectively. And, you know, we weren't groomed. We. You know, we didn't. We didn't have that team. And so we felt like we were almost set out to the lions. You know, we didn't have media training. Interesting. It was just. I think what the attraction was for Liberty Towards Liberty. We were only Liberty at the time was that we were raw. And that was quite evident because we didn't know when to stop talking or what not to say. And we were. On the fact that we were able to. We were able to bring our creative energy to what we put out there, which usually doesn't happen. Well, doesn't happen to manufacture bands, actually. But the pressure battled us and Hearsay off from the get go. Flop Stars wannabes, the Five Losers. And it was evident that they wanted us to fail. Not just Hearsay as a team, but the people around them. And so that would have then stirred up the pot with the Hearsay members in order to, you know, add fuel to the fire when they did interviews about how they were bigger and better and we were not so. And that we were running on their coattails.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. How did you feel? Cause you were. These were your friends. You know, a few months prior when you were filming.

[Michelle Heaton]

It felt really harsh. We didn't know how to navigate. Felt like it wasn't the five people that we met in the audition process. And along all of this, all I kind of wanted to do was reach out to Suzanne.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Michelle Heaton]

Cause that's like one of the people that I've got really close to and be like, how is it? What's it like?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

Like, it's amazing. Like, I really wanted to share that with her. And at no point did I see what we were doing as hanging on their coattails. And I have to say, like, my skin's not. I say it's thick, but it's really paper thin. If it wasn't for the rest of the Liberty X members, I don't think I would have got through it as well as that. I did, but we had each other and that's what made our strength, I think, as a band.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Wow. Could you take me through some of the highs and lows? You know, if you think about the most surreal moment, you know, being in a pop band, especially this is in the 2000s, where there's big, you know, video budgets. And it was a different era.

[Michelle Heaton]

It was just so different and so much fun.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

Like, yeah, there was dark times and, you know, I was struggling behind the scenes with my heart and just other stuff. And alcohol was present then, but I wouldn't have called myself an alcoholic back then. It was just so much fun. Oh, God. There were so many times, like, we were in Southeast Asia and we were attending the MTV Asia Awards and we were given an awards and Riah Carey's there and Blues there. Pussycat Dolls before they. Before they kind of reduced their size. Yeah. Black Eyed Peas, Sugar Babes. Gareth was there and there was just loads of people and we were all staying in the same hotel, and we are. Our particular rooms overlooked this big pool. So. So we had a massive pool party that night at the awards. And we, like, you've got Black Eyed Peas here, you've got a Pussycat's Aussie, and everyone's necking on.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, my God.

[Michelle Heaton]

I mean, I'm not gonna say names. I mean.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, that's a wild. Hold on now. You know, I have to go there. Don't say names. Don't say names.

[Michelle Heaton]

No, we can't.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Don't say names. But let me ask this, though. Let me ask you.

[Michelle Heaton]

There are people in that pool that I will never tell.

[Mylene Klass]

Never.

[Michelle Heaton]

That never came out.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, my God. And, you know, there were no camera.

[Michelle Heaton]

That's exactly what I was about to say. It never came out because we weren't overrun by social media back then. And that's why it was fun. Like, I'm not saying what we were doing was right.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Michelle Heaton]

Or, you know, it was just. It was just never captured what happened. And the fun that we had didn't go out because there wasn't people taking pictures of it or discussing it or it becoming something that it isn't. Like, you know, it wasn't an orgy. It was just fun times.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Right. But also, too is in those Moments. What about, you know, like managers and assistants and other people? Or do you feel like, because we didn't have social media at that time, that even if someone saw something, it doesn't spread?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, that's it today. Right. It was quite a close knit community. Everybody knew each other. It was when pop was great, you know, we did everything together. The radio shows, there was cduk, smtv, Top of the Punk, slightly kicking. I mean, all of these outlets of where you showcased your music and you got to hang out with all the same guys. Like the last show of SMTV was where Kat and Dec got married and it was on Chums and so it was a theory thing and they got married and Mariah Carey's their bridesmaid.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Goodness.

[Michelle Heaton]

And you've got Hearsay on one side and you've got Liberty X on the other and you've got Blue. And we're part of this wedding congregation and we are just in that moment. And then it ended. And then SMTV ended. Chum's finished. We've got, you know, Top the Pops was coming to the end of an era and all these shows kind of like just stopped and dropped out. And then it wasn't fun anymore. You know, a lot of how we promoted our music was taken away. There was downloading happening, you know, you didn't have to go into radio stations anymore. And that was half the fun. A radio tour. And so the shift in the music industry ultimately, I think ended our career as musicians and as, you know, as an artist.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes, yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

Navigating that transition in, you know, the mid to late noughties was difficult. Record companies were folding, you know, V2 was sold. We went to another independent label and that didn't happen. And so it was like a vulnerable time in that moment. And then, you know, when Liberty X ended, it just stopped. Like we just. We were just together one day in the dressing room after a gig and a couple of us had been drinking and it was messy, it wasn't one of our finest performances and we had become lazy and, you know, a couple of us wanted to start a family and get married and we were all just tired of each other's bullshit. I know a few people were tired of our bullshit and it was vocalized, just the five of us, and then we stopped. I think we had one or two last gigs to do and we fulfilled our commitments and just walked away from each other and that was it. There was no big dramatic press conference and there was no big announcement. It just. We just thought nobody cared about us. That much. So, like, really? Yeah, yeah. We were quite good at playing ourselves down and. Oh, well, nobody's gonna give a shit anyway, you know.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

But do you think they did at

[Michelle Heaton]

that time, looking back? Yeah, yeah. Looking back and knowing what our music meant for people and, you know, me and the two girls have been able to go out for the last nine years and perform as a three and still bring that music that we recorded all those years ago to our generation and new generation shows me now of how important it was to those kids growing up. And we just thought, nobody give a shit because our last song didn't do so well. And then we were dropped and then, you know, our performances became sloppy and we just thought, well, that's. That's it.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

That's it. Yeah, that's it. You know, one thing about Liberty X and I say Liberty X because you were Liberty. And then was it some other group had Liberty or.

[Michelle Heaton]

I don't know. Yes, some minor group got a bit sore as a subject and wanted their name back. So they were Liberty. So I'm sure they've used it well. And so, yeah, they took us to court, you know.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And then you become Liberty X.

[Michelle Heaton]

That's right.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Now, I think. What? And I don't want to even stir up more issues between you and Hearsay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, no.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

But I.

[Michelle Heaton]

As I can see Mylene's picture in my eyeline right here.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Because we love Hearsay here. Right. But one thing I didn't realize was how successful Liberty X was. Right. So Liberty X, you have now so achieved international success. So the album featuring just a little. Right, that single was the ninth best selling single in 2002.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, right.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

That's major. Also the group, you had 10 consecutive UK top 20 singles. So is it, or should I say, am I correct in saying that Liberty X sold more than Hearsay?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, that would be correct. Yep. Yep, we did. We had three albums and we had a big, massive sellout tour. We won a Brit Awards for our song and were up for two album awards and we won an Ivan Novella award. And so, yes. So putting it frankly, yeah, ultimately Liberty X were more successful than Hearsay.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I have another surprise for you. Well, you ready for this?

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, God, I don't know. I thought it was in the picture.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

This one is coming from this side.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay. Oh, no.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

You have to close your eyes on this one.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay.

[Daniel]

Okay.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

You trust me? Trust me. Close your eyes. Okay. And when you open it, I would like you to read this. You can open.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay. I'm getting upset already.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

This is beautiful.

[Michelle Heaton]

Do you want me to read it out?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Please.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay. I haven't got my glasses. Okay. Dear Michelle, who would have. I can't even read it. It's only got the word pop stars on it. Okay. Dear Michelle, who would have known when we first met at the Pop stars audition in 2000 that we'd still be pop stars in a band together all these years later? We've shared so many amazing memories together. Making music, touring the world and write and winning awards. But some of the best things are the little things that we've shared. The normal stuff, like the gossiping in the car and the nights out in the town. Or maybe not so normal, actually. We've been through marriages, divorces, births, deaths, illnesses, and all that life throws at you together. And the fact that we still have a great working relationship, too, is nothing short of unbelievable. We've been so proud to watch you in recovery over the last five years. You've conquered some situations that most couldn't handle. And that's a testament to the strong woman that you are. You've built an amazing life with Hugh, Faith and aj. We love them too, and feel blessed to be part of your life story. Here's to exciting times ahead as bandmates and friends. We love you, Jess and Cal.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

What do those girls mean to you?

[Michelle Heaton]

I mean, like, we have been through so much together and like, nobody knows stuff about me then those girls do, you know, even like my husband, you know, my best friends. The stuff that we've gone through only us can understand.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I'm working on a great initiative with id, Mobile and Mental Health uk. Science tells us that hearing a voice over a call can lower our stress, boost our mood, and even help us to rebuild connections. So they're asking you to ditch the text and make it a call instead. I'm going to admit something to you. I'm a chronic texter. I'm the worst person in the world to front this. You're not going to listen to me. Why would you? But you might listen to someone you know. So I had an idea flow with me on this for the next few weeks. Instead of ads with me in them, I'm giving up this seat right here to those people who've been waiting for you to phone them. And for the next few episodes, you'll be hearing from them instead of me. So these folks will have just one ask. Ditch the text and make it a call. Hello? I've gotta take this. I know that you have had a, should I say tumultuous relationship with the press over the course of your career. If you could just almost give us the highlight reel of your up and down relationship with the press. Because there are moments that I've read where it was just. It was hideous what was done to you in the press.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. There's always a member of a band that the press horn in on. You know, you had. I suppose you had Jerry with the Spice Girls, and you had Rachel from S Club, and you had Kerri from Atomic Hitten.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And you had Leigh from Blue.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And you had me from Liberty X. And we were in the category of the fun one or the pissed one. And so that would be, you know, in my situation, the lack of confidence I have in my ability and my talent. And it wasn't necessarily the bandmates making me feel like that, but I felt like that.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And it was evident with producers and people who we were writing with and recording with that I was ultimately the bottom of the pile when it came to singing and that I'm not good for that. So I had to find a place. So finding an area of which I was good at, which was going out and getting drunk or getting boyfriends, was a place I felt comfortable in because I felt uncomfortable with my talent.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

This is interesting. So are you saying that you were aware that this was the brand that you were known for and you played it up?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and willingly. So.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Because I loved doing, you know, acting the way I was. Like, I was young, I was single at the time. I had. I had relationships with boys, famous men, boys that were on my wall growing up.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Wow.

[Michelle Heaton]

Like, I was like. I mean, I say this a lot, and I hate saying it all the time, but, like, Gary Lucy, for example.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Like, Gary Lucy.

[Michelle Heaton]

Gary Lucy.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, my gosh. I know. G. Did you date Gary?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. Well, so Gary. Gary picked me up in a nightclub. Gary did. And.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, my goodness.

[Michelle Heaton]

We were in a nightclub and I was like, oh, my God, it's Gary Lucy. And it was Gary Lucy. And I said to Kelly and Jess, oh, God, it's Gary Lucy. And I was, like, freaking out. Like, he's like my top three at that moment in time.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, yeah, he was. Because he was in. It was a show that he was doing. Like, the Footballers.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. Footballers Wives and Hollyoaks. And it was just like, oh, my God. Anyway, he made benign for me, so I'm like, yeah, okay. And we. We. We had a few dates.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And it. It didn't get too serious, but we had fun, and it just didn't work out.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Can we Talk about Andy.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

As much as you want to talk about Andy. But. But here. Here's.

[Michelle Heaton]

I'm sure Andy, if you watch this scene. No, don't talk about Andy.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Right now he's saying say no.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. I haven't spoke to Andy since we divorced, apart from maybe one, once.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Because here's. From what I know about your relationship with Andy is that it was quick. Quick marriage. A year and a half, almost 19 months.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So very quick marriage. Tumultuous accusations. He said, she said.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. A lot.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And then a cheating allegation.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So on the cheating allegation.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yep.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Can you clarify from your position what happened?

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay. Wow. No one's asked me that direct. Oh, God.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I mean. Okay, that's why we need to talk, Michelle. We need to talk. Yeah.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay. Okay. You're right in saying that the relationship was tumultuous. It was always. There had been cheating allegations throughout on both parts. Some true, some not true. And that was kind of. We both knew. Didn't know. We just also wanted to be together. It wasn't real love in that aspect, but we thought it was, you know. Well, I did anyway. I thought it was real love, but the cheating happened when I was on a holiday in Marbella. Okay, my cheating. Not the cheating. My cheating happened when I was in Marbella and I was out there on holiday with Bianca Gascoigne, Nikki Graham, Natania Lloyd, you know, the crew that you remember back then in, like, the early noughties that all went out, you know, there was the big brother, Lots, and Callum Best, and we were all there for an opening of. I think it was the Ocean Club.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, my gosh. Wayne Linekers.

[Michelle Heaton]

Well, yeah, yeah. So. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I. I was obviously drunk and I snogged somebody on the dance floor in front of the world press. Like, I mean, I couldn't have made it any more obvious. And we left together. We didn't go home together. We left together. And so I freaked out.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Did you?

[Michelle Heaton]

I had a freak out. Like a real comedown. I think that's the easiest way of describing it. I was absolutely freaking out. And of course, by the time I got home, Andy knew something. Somebody from that party told him that I was sitting on the dance floor snogging this particular person. And then I told him. We tried to work through it, but didn't try. And then I think there was maybe about a couple of months. I can't remember a few months where we just weren't there, you know, and then when we broke Up. I broke up with Andy, and I left, and I moved in with a friend that I had made in Ireland. And Andy's a great guy. Like, I don't want to say anything bad about him. Cause, like, I loved him.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Did you. Can I ask a question on this?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So cheating infidelity comes up quite a bit in the conversations that we have here on the podcast. And I think that there's a debate around whether or not you can love your partner and cheat on them.

[Michelle Heaton]

Right.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

How do you answer that?

[Michelle Heaton]

Wow. Well, I would. It's a tough one. Like, my husband now would say, absolutely not. That's it. And I would now say, absolutely not. That's it. Right. But I did do that. Cause I honest. Like, I don't know how I know how. I've heard how Andy describes our marriage, and that's not what I thought it was. And I thought it was real.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

The love.

[Michelle Heaton]

The love.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

The love, yeah.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. And so that thing that happened in Marbella was by no means a reflection of me wanting that particular person. I acted out.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay. It was situational.

[Michelle Heaton]

It was situational. I acted out. I shouldn't have done it. I was drunk. I was. You know. God, it's funny. Alcohol puts you in all these positions that you wouldn't do if you weren't drunk. Oh, it was just messy. And I don't really want to go into too much because it implicates his family as well. And consequently, since then, like, I really have a lot of respect for his sister Lisa. We've remained in contact.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. So how about this? Let's not go into the messy piece, but how about having had that relationship? What did you learn about yourself that you then took into this next relationship, which is your marriage now?

[Michelle Heaton]

I suppose what real love is. You know, I thought I was in love maybe four times before Andy.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Like, I had real love at school, and then I met somebody towards the end of that relationship, I'd be quite uneasy. And that never serves anybody well in this industry when there's a load of people who just want to have fun and move on.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes,

[Daniel]

hello. My name is Daniel, and I have taken this lovely seat bequeathed by Paul to tell my wife, Lydia, love of my life, fire my veins to call me.

[Michelle Heaton]

Welcome to ID Mobile. Please leave your message after the tone.

[Daniel]

I don't care if it's you at home asking me where the remote is. I don't care whether you're on your way back from work and you're literally calling to tell me that. I just prefer a Call it lets me know that you love me. Listen, Paul himself, relationship guru, they call him Oogway of relationships. He just said that phone calls will boost all the chemicals we need for extra loving.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay.

[Daniel]

If you remember, basically our whole relationship was built on phone calls. We started dating when you went to uni and so we long distanced for three years. We probably fell asleep on the phone together four nights out of a week, which was incredible and really formed our relationship. So I'm just trying to bring a little bit of that love and spontaneity back. Let me paint you a picture of the kind of call that I'm hoping that I get. Hey, boo.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

How are you?

[Daniel]

Just a quick one. Do we have cheese? We've got cheese.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Great.

[Daniel]

Thank you. I'll be home in two minutes. Even that. Ooh, that would get me. It would just be nice. That would just be amazing. And it's 10 seconds. What do you think?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but you were not necessarily saying that. There are words that you want to hear, but it's how you want to hear them 100%. You know what's so interesting though, is I think you're married to me because I'm Lydia, right? I'm like, Jill, where's the remote? Yeah, yeah. I'm super, super, super texter. And, you know, all the research supports what you're saying. You know, I'm just, I have a thick head. It sounds like Lydia does too. So, Lydia, she should just call you.

[Daniel]

I'd love that.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And, you know, you've inspired me. I'm going to call Jill at least once today.

[Daniel]

Come.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, listen, I'm gonna call her. Yeah, I'm call. You know what? I should call her right now. And of course, we're in partnership with ID Mobile and Mental Health uk. We want you to ditch the text and make it a call. Hey there. I just want to share a content warning. This episode includes discussion of addiction and eating disorders. If you or someone you know needs support, we've included resources in the show. Notes. Please take care while watching. Michelle, could you, as much as you'd like to walk us through your addiction in college is when you tried. Is it? Do you try drugs for the first time in college?

[Michelle Heaton]

Their speed. Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Could you talk about your first time trying speed?

[Michelle Heaton]

I remember we were. I think we were watching a play from the older year and drum and bass was really big back then.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And my friends had some and so I tried it and wow. Like that. When people say, I've arrived, right. People Use that term a lot. I don't really like that term because, like. Like later on in life with. With, you know, drugs or alcohol, like, I didn't feel like I arrived anywhere.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

But that moment, that's the closest place I can be to. To tell you I felt like I arrived. You know, my heart was pounding, I felt awake. I could do, like, study and have fun at the same time. And. And that was kind of course, throughout the. My life at college, along with a big battle with binge eating.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Which I continued throughout my whole life.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

But speed was the first thing that I kind of noted. Didn't make me hungry.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Interesting. Just to clarify, for everyone knows it's a street term, Right. But it's an amphetamine, as you said, that accelerates the central nervous system to increase energy, focus and alertness, while also suppressing not just appetite, but it also suppresses your sleep.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, yeah, of course it does. Yeah. Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Interesting. When did. Do you feel like you moved very quickly from casual use to regular use of speed?

[Michelle Heaton]

I would substitute one for another. So I suppose after college, speed wasn't something that I went and picked up. I didn't call it in or, you know, it was there from friends. Was then ephedrine.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Ephedrine, yeah. Tell me about the ephedrine.

[Michelle Heaton]

So ephedrine is a. It's kind of like a speed. It's amphetamine. And it was in a pill called exandrin. And exandrin is a weight loss drug now, I'm pretty certain it's banned now because it contained ephedrine. So from speed, I wanted to keep the weight off. And so I went a bit, had a bit of research, and then at, like, a local gym, one of those that had, you know, the back door said, what about these? You could only get them from America. And I tried them, and it gave me the same effect that speed did, but because it was legal, I was like, okay, great. It's giving me this buzz, this feeling. It's not making me want to eat. And so that was my next thing. And then they got banned.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, interesting. What year or how old were you?

[Michelle Heaton]

Maybe maybe 19, 20. Maybe about then.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Pre pop stars.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I was 20, 21 pop stars. And then they got banned, but then on this back corner of the gym, they sold pure Ephrogen tablets, and so then switched to Ephrogen, which was a pure form of what was in the Exandarin.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Wow.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I abused them for many years.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Wow.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. Yeah, For a long time. Maybe about five years. And I remember I stopped because I got rushed to hospital one day and they. My heart had stopped. I felt my heart stop, and it was going erratic, and there was loads of palpitations. And this was like. This was a couple of years after Liberty X started. And I was with my ex husband Andy at the time. And I got rushed to hospital, and they found copious amounts of caffeine in my blood and traces of. Of. Well, they told me it was traces of cocaine, but I had never done cocaine, actually, at this point in life.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

But that's what's down on my doctor's report. And so I just. I was like, I don't get it. And obviously they were asking, have I done anything? And I was like, no, I haven't done anything because I didn't do coke.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Sure.

[Michelle Heaton]

I haven't done anything. Not thinking about these pills that I was taking. So they were obviously laced with that. And I know it sounds like a cop out, but I'll tell you all, like, I did cocaine later on in life. That's why I went to rehab. Like, this wasn't that time. This was a moment where I was taking these pills that I was buying from a gym, and that happened and I stopped.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Interesting. But those pills were laced with cocaine.

[Michelle Heaton]

That's all I took.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Michelle Heaton]

That's what I was taking to stop me from eating. And.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And that was Michelle. So that was five years.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So that means. I didn't realize. So you were then taking pills through pop stars?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Wow.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay. I didn't know that. But you were not drinking.

[Michelle Heaton]

I mean, I was drinking, but I wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't at all my crux.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

It wasn't your crux?

[Michelle Heaton]

No.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So how did you move to alcohol?

[Michelle Heaton]

Alcohol was always present, definitely. And I loved going out, and I always. It's really weird. Like, I love to hang over. Oh, my God. Because I knew that it was a day of binge. So my addictions and my obsessiveness with food.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Became so intertwined that I had, like, this. This thing going on whereby I would start a new diet every Monday or new diet pills or whatever it might be the cabbage soup diet, you know, the. What was it? One to one diet or whatever it was. Whatever it was every single week. And by Wednesday, I'd failed. I would binge eat, and then I would go and get drunk and I'd go out and then I'd binge eat, and then I'd start again, and my weight was creeping up. Instead of getting Getting less than okay. And this was early in Liberty X as well, where I was starting to have that pattern of binge eating, and it gave me comfort. And I was outed by my manager at the Liberty X video shoot for just a little. Our biggest video.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And he said, you've put on a bit of weight. And I had granted. And I knew I felt uncomfortable. And I was the only one of the three girls in that shoot to wear a dress because I couldn't fit into the catsuit. And so I knew my worth. I knew I just needed to be hidden. I felt like that's what they were trying to do, to hide me. I'm sure they weren't, but I felt that, you know, I felt like they just wanted to hide me in this big, oversized dress. But in reality, you know, that was the only thing I fit in at that time. And he said that to me. My man just said that to me. The first night of the first day that you put on weights, people are starting to talk. Maybe you want to think about getting healthy or lose weight. And what that does for any addict is you do more of. So I went back home and I ordered three pizzas, and I binge ate.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Did you? That day?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So the day of the video shoot.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. And I had another day the next day. And I knew. I knew I would feel swollen. I just couldn't stop. I could not stop eating. And I have absolutely no filter when it comes to food. I still have that today. So the binge eating and, you know, the day of the treat day, I will go physically all in. And it's hard to talk about it because when people look at myself like, I know I'm not fat. And I've worked really hard on myself to be really happy and comfortable with my body. I love going to the gym. I love eating healthy. We don't drink anymore, obviously, but I still have that on and off switch. So that obsession over something that makes me feel good for that split second is still there. I haven't got it with alcohol and drugs anymore, but I have it with food. And with food, it's very difficult to switch off because it's something you have to eat to live.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And so working through that is ever so difficult because I have triggers. And the triggers could be a piece of cake, one piece of chocolate bar. It could be another excuse. Like my addictions with alcohol and drugs. A party, an event, the cinema, you know, all of these things were triggers for me to either call it in or get more alcohol and so now I have the same application to food.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay. But then at that point, especially during that video shoot, you then binged on three pizzas. Then do you consume alcohol or.

[Michelle Heaton]

No, not at that point. No. No.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So it's the binging of the food.

[Michelle Heaton]

It's the binging of the food, and

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

then you show up the next day. And

[Michelle Heaton]

I actually go back on ephedrine after that.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Interesting. So you're back on the pills.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, back on the pills.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And they're harder to source and obviously. Cause they're banned. But I didn't feel like I was doing anything illegal because it's found in diet pills.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Michelle Heaton]

Where you can still pick up in America.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, but it's illegal here.

[Michelle Heaton]

But it's legal here.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And you're a celebrity now.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yes.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So I'm curious, as a celebrity, when you are acquiring illegal drugs, where do you get them from?

[Michelle Heaton]

Because, I mean, the ephedrine was quite easy to find from gyms, so still.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

But you're known. And then there's paparazzi.

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, I wouldn't get it myself. Yeah, okay. I know, I know. Like friends of friends and whatever. But I was so unhappy with how I had stopped. This is the insanity of it. Right. I stopped because I have a heart problem, which I have today. I actually just had a small operation last week.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I see scarring.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. And this is fresh. So this is something that I had last week, which I don't make a big song and dance about. But I've just showed you the scars. Don't know where my thinking is in that. And then I put on all this weight and it freaks me the fuck out. And I'm being told to lose weight, and I don't know how to lose weight properly. I need to lose it fast. And the only way I know how to use it is with drugs.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay. Okay. Is this when you start using cocaine as well?

[Michelle Heaton]

Cocaine was part of my story later on in life, Paul. It was around back then. It had been offered. I think I might have took it a few. A few times. But it wasn't something I was petrified of. You know, after all of this, I'm petrified of drugs. I'm worried that if I took that. So I've never done a pill. Right. I always worry that I'm that one person that gets that pill and I die from one pill. So harm me a pill. Absolutely not. But I would take ephrogen. And it was. It's just. That's the insanity of addictions.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

How you can validate and have acceptance over one drug or alcohol, which is a drug, and oh, my God, I'd never touch that. And then a lot of the time, those nevers creep up on you because you're not getting the same high you are from alcohol. And then that's when cocaine became involved.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So it went from ephrogen to then alcohol. And the alcohol you were using to basically numb yourself to go on stage was.

[Michelle Heaton]

Wasn't so much numb myself to go on stage. I just didn't know myself without alcohol. So I, you know, like, I was fun and I was energetic, and at this point, I looked good and getting some good press and, like, it's in a good place. And so when I. When I'm in that place, I'm like, well, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And at this point, I had no issues with putting down alcohol. I wasn't dependent on alcohol. There was no addiction with alcohol.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay?

[Michelle Heaton]

And I say that because I know the difference now. I was a big drinker. You know, I couldn't perform without a drink other than obviously five years ago. Up to five years ago, I don't remember ever doing a gig sober, a big social drinker. But I never went home and drank by myself. And I didn't hide it, manipulate for it, and do all these things that I then went onto in later life. Cocaine came around when I had my children and became friendly with a community of wealthier housewives in my area. And so it wasn't to do with the music industry. And at that moment in time, I had a total hysterectomy at a very young age. And I lost whatever I had built up for myself throughout the years. I lost all my identity, everything I thought I knew by myself. I had no idea who I was.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

How old were you as well? You were mid-30s, weren't you?

[Michelle Heaton]

33?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

33. Early 30. You're 33, you have a hysterectomy, and then you immediately go into menopause.

[Michelle Heaton]

Immediately.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

What is that? Like, what were the.

[Michelle Heaton]

Almost.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

When you reflect back what was happening for you and how did it feel,

[Michelle Heaton]

you know, when I woke up? It's not like you have this severe reaction to not having hormones in your body. Like, I wasn't instantly different. It was over a period of time that I think my husband would have recognized way sooner than myself. Where I wasn't myself, I lost my essence, my craziness, my. My get up and go, my libido. I couldn't talk to my friends about it, not because they didn't want me to, but because I told myself they wouldn't want to. I didn't want to talk to my husband about it because I didn't want to feel un. Like I was unsexy. And I was. I would. I think the easiest way of saying is that I was just. I was numb for quite a while and I just didn't want to get out of bed, Just didn't want to do anything. So whilst I wasn't clinically diagnosed with depression, the easiest way I can describe it is that before I had testosterone, I felt in a mode of depression.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I couldn't get out of it. And so that definitely had an impact and still does to this day. I was really scared and I was really sad and I didn't like myself anymore.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

What were you scared of, Michelle?

[Michelle Heaton]

God, just how I felt about myself, how other people saw me, how unrelatable I was now, you know, especially to my peers and my friends. The unrelatability stems down to the fact that all I had on my mind was menopause and how I felt. And so when you're bringing that to a night out with your girlfriends, it's not exactly a hot topic. And I got my kick from drinking alcohol, okay? And I see it. I got it. I really got it. Like, I was licked. I was. It was pre Covid, so I was definitely gone before then. Although Covid definitely exasperated the situation and my relationship with alcohol and drugs. And then I found that alcohol wasn't really doing for me what I wanted it to do anymore because I was drinking more of it.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And how much alcohol were you consuming?

[Michelle Heaton]

It wasn't yet at the point where I woke up and had to drink, but I'd say a good couple of bottles a day of wine.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

A few bottles of.

[Michelle Heaton]

A couple of bottles of wine per day? Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

If you wanted to kind of like roughly estimate it, you know, sometimes it would just be spirits and. But it wasn't coloured with. With cocaine at that point. And I say coloured. It was. It started to color it because it was around in the area where I lived and there were other women doing what I was doing, not working, husband was out all day. You know, you either got drunk and took coke or you had affair with a tennis coach at the gym. You know who you are. And that was life, living in the area at that point, or what I thought was life. I thought there was no other option. And I liked drinking and I didn't want to give it up. And I liked the way that cocaine made Me feel. It gave me that I've arrived at each moment. That I had it right back in my late teens, that I got from speed.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

From speed, yes. Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. That alcohol wasn't given me.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And so you were addicted to alcohol and cocaine, but at the same time, it was.

[Michelle Heaton]

It was. It was. Yeah. Fundamentally, it was. And I think like, the last two years, just two to three years of my drinking was my drinking and using combined.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

But I never saw it. Towards the end, I could see I have a problem with alcohol. I knew I couldn't stop when I tried. I knew I was dying. I was in hospital. I knew what the doctors were telling me. People would saying it. He tried to get me to rehab two years previous. I didn't understand fully what an alcoholic was. I didn't have any idea. I thought I was the only person that behaved like this. Nobody would understand. That's why I hid it. Alcohol was fundamentally killing me, but not coke, because nobody knew.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So no one knew about the coke. It was only your friends.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. And they didn't know, like, really the extent. Nobody knew the extent of my drinking and, you know, and the pockets at where I could get my cocaine from. Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

This part intrigues me because you are. At this time, you are. I mean, you're happily married.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yep.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

You have two children.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

That you're raising.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

You have a career now and you're. Cause you're working, you're gigging.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, we're gigging. Off the back of the big reunion. Three girls go out, we do a tour in Australia, and. Yeah, we're gigging. We're working. You're gigging. Life's good.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Life's good. You are a public figure.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Looking from the outside in. You have it all.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. Yeah. Looking from the outside in. Yeah. And that's how I look at other people's lives. Right. It's easy to. To look at other people's lives like that when yours is coming crumbling down and nobody can see that.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

No. You know, but what was actually happening is it was all crumbling for you.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And I didn't realize how low it actually got for you.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And so you were. So how do you manage that all? Like, how do you consume that much alcohol? Acquire the drugs, do the gigs, be the mom, be the wife, be the friend. How do you do it all?

[Michelle Heaton]

I was doing it all. I don't know. I was doing it all, you know, with the cocaine thing, it's like I only did coke when somebody else was doing it too. And so that's why I thought I didn't have a problem, okay? So in my head. Cause I wasn't using it secretly. I was drinking secretly and manipulating secretly. But because I wasn't so much hiding it like it was, certain people knew I was doing cocaine. It wasn't an addiction in my head, okay? I didn't see it like that because it kept. Because I could almost handle being an alcoholic, even though I couldn't say the word, but certainly wasn't a drug addict, you know. You know, you have this visual of what a drug addict looks like, and these women, or, you know, a couple of women that were not like that, was doing it recreationally, kind of meant that, oh, it's okay then, because they're not like that. So we're not addicts, so we don't have a problem, and society accepts that.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Did. Did Hugh, your husband, know about the cocaine?

[Michelle Heaton]

No. No, but. Yes. No, He didn't. But he did. I don't think he wanted to admit him to himself. You know, I. It must have been so awful for him because he could see myself. He could see that I was killing myself with alcohol, and I just couldn't see it. And there were moments where, you know, I got caught not doing drugs, but there was a rap or there was a note with some residue, and I was becoming sloppy. And it was always. Cause I had people over and there was a barbecue, and so I would blame them, but he knew. He knew it wasn't them. He knew it was mine. And of course I wasn't gonna admit it. That meant facing up to everything else, you know, admitting that. That meant that I had to look at my alcohol abuse. And I wasn't ready to give that up. I didn't wanna let go of my alcohol.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And from what I understand, Hugh also, he didn't drink.

[Michelle Heaton]

No nothing. He's never tasted alcohol before.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Hasn't tasted alcohol, no. So how.

[Michelle Heaton]

Which is mad, right?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I was gonna say, how did the relationship, especially during that time, how did it play out? Because he, as you said, he's aware that you are literally killing yourself from the alcohol. He's beginning to catch you out a

[Michelle Heaton]

little bit on the drugs, getting sloppy. And I am. It's like I want to be caught. It's the easiest way of saying it. It's like. Like I'm becoming sloppy. But I'm kind of subconsciously aware of it. I'm aware I'm sloppy because if I was just like, if. If my husband or somebody just literally broke in on me and found me in this Compromising position. I couldn't hide, but I couldn't say the words. I couldn't ask for help. And now we know about addiction. And since then, it's very difficult, extremely impossible to help somebody who doesn't want to be helped. And so whilst I kind of wanted to be caught, I certainly didn't want to be caught. And I couldn't say it out loud. And I was so shameful of what I was doing. That like my relationship with food, where I get comfort when I'm punishing myself, it was like that towards the end, with drink and drugs, I would feel so, so negatively towards myself that I was in this situation and that I couldn't stop drinking. And I was being sick and it was blood, and I couldn't wake up until I couldn't get out of bed, until I had a drink. That's if I woke up. I would often not go to sleep. I was spending money. I was manipulating people in situations to get what I needed. I was lying all the time. And so my punishment would be to drink more. And our marriage only worked because he was able to part mentalize what was happening to me and focus on the kids and himself. So he was able to shut that off. And that was the only way he coped. And it sounds harsh, and I hated him for it. Cause in my mind, I'm thinking, he doesn't love me, he's not there for me. And so I'd push him further and further away. But the more I pushed him, the more I hurt him.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And so he had no choice but to wait until I was ready.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. What made him wait? Because it's. I find the relationship between you and Hugh so interesting because in many occasions, or should I say many times, when you have one partner with addiction, another partner, not is the partner, leaves.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, I know.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Because addiction also lends itself to other pieces. And you talked about it. Manipulation. You're lying to people. There's money involved now. Right. And so many partners see all that. They say, I'm out, I'm taking the kids, I'm gone. Why do you believe he stayed?

[Michelle Heaton]

He's a good man. He loved me. He saw that I was there when I didn't, you know, at the time, I didn't say any of that. You know, I thought he hated me. And we do this a lot. You push. When I say we, I mean addicts, we push away what's good for us because we feel like we don't deserve it. And he was too good for me. And I don't know. I know now that there were conversations he had with friends that I've asked not to. I don't want to know about them now.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And so there were conversations that he had with other people and my friends at that time while I was in the midst of it. And I know that certain friends because they've told me that they told him to walk away.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Really? Really. Because they saw what you were doing. You know, and when you. We even talk about things like manipulation. Right? What were you doing?

[Michelle Heaton]

Girl? Winter is so last season. And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio Sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic with plan B. Emergency contraception. We're in control of our future.

[Mylene Klass]

It's backup birth control you take after

[Michelle Heaton]

unprotected sex that helps prevent pregnancy before it starts. It works by temporarily delaying ovulation and it won't impact your future fertility.

[Mylene Klass]

Plan B is available in all 50 US states at all major retailers near

[Michelle Heaton]

you with no ID, prescription or age requirement needed. Together we've got this. Follow Plan B on insta at Plan B. One step to learn more. Use as directed. If there was like, you know how we had bubbles in Covid.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

I cleverly manipulated my bubbles to be people that I could drink and use with. Not all of the bubbles, but I cleverly manipulated why it should be those.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And there was always a reason. If there wasn't a party in the garden, a barbecue, a pub visit or something like that every day, that would be absolutely extraordinary because I would manipulate things happening to aid what I was doing so that people wouldn't look at me as if it was different. So you know, if there was a kid's party, say my kids parties, I would have alcohol for the adults. So then it allowed me to drink. That's a great example of my manipulation something good into using what I needed and manipulating other people around there just to literally do what I want to do.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I see it.

[Michelle Heaton]

That's a great example there. Hadn't even thought about that.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, I see it. I see it. So at that point, it was all about you.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, totally.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Damn.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, it was all about my needs. But how dare you say that to me at that time.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Right, right. Because at that time.

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, yeah.

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, you say that to me. I'm fighting back.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

I'm full of rage. How dare you make me look at myself? Kind of attitude. And what do you know, Hugh? Like, you've never drank before. You know, what do you know? You haven't gone through the menopause or, you know, whatever. I could blame. I would blame so many things. I would blame them. I would push Hugh away. I would push my friends away. You know, when they stopped inviting me out to places, I got so angry. And it was now, I know, obviously, you know, looking back, it's because they couldn't. They didn't want to be with me while I was killing myself.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Right. But they had to do something, which is why they're talking.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And so.

[Michelle Heaton]

But I just saw that as them going behind my back.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay, but now, did they eventually try to stage an intervention?

[Michelle Heaton]

They did.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Did it work or no? No, it didn't work.

[Michelle Heaton]

No.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Why not?

[Michelle Heaton]

I talked my way out of it. There was a guy from rehab. There was my husband. There was my manager, who's a very close family friend, and the three of them were there when I got home one day. And there were videos on Hughes form from my best mates, which I refused to watch.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And they wanted me to go with this guy who I'd never met and go to rehab.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Right there.

[Michelle Heaton]

Right there, that moment. And I remember I didn't like him anyway. And I had a sixth sense. And Hugh didn't really like him either. And I'm glad it didn't actually work out. But the reason it didn't work out is because I talked one way out of it. I promised. And at that point, I really meant it because I hadn't tried to stop. At that point, I hadn't tried to stop drinking. I loved it so much that I didn't want to stop or try. And so when I was caught out and this was a real thing, and I didn't want. I didn't want the public to know. I didn't want anybody to know. I. God, the thought of the public knowing that I was an alcoholic or a drug addict was just too much. And I thought I'd never work again. But, you know, that wasn't so much my thinking then. Maybe that was when I went to rehab, but it was just, fuck, I need to do something now. I need to work. I am dying, like the doctors told me. My liver's in a bad Shape. But at that point they hadn't told it. I hadn't been told it was failing yet.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

So I got told that I needed to reduce my alcohol intake, not stop. So I was given all of these little lights and, and so I was able to. Well, actually. Okay. If I do what the doctor said, let's do that. I, I promise I'll work on it. I want to be better. And, and, and, and, and we kind of worked out. I said, no, you don't need to show me those sad videos. I get it, it's fine. And just what I do with everything, right? Let's just crack on.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I tried, and I tried that half bottle for about a day. And the obsession was so on me that I just, that I think that was the first time that I bought a bottle of vodka and a nectar. Up to that point, I was. Here's my stomach going. Up to that point, I drank vodka neat. Yeah, sure. But like shots. So then I could excuse it. You know, it's done in a mixer. I take trebles.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

What's the point in having a tuffle when you can have a treble? And so I could disregard the amount of vodka I was drinking at that point because it was always mixed. But I think that week, definitely after I started to try to get better and I couldn't, I was craving alcohol and the strongest thing I could think of was vodka. And I bought a cheap flask of vodka and I downed it and it hit the spot. You know, cocaine was around, but it wasn't every day. It was there sociably if I wanted it, I knew where to get it if I needed it. But that vodka, yes, in that moment became that next two year relationship with the vodka bar.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, wow.

[Michelle Heaton]

Because I got that hit that I had been looking for and I was chasing that hit that I had that day. Every time I tried to stop, I couldn't. And every time I tried to stop, I was sick. I felt better when I drank alcohol. Like the absences of not drinking, whether it be an hour or a couple of hours, because it was never a day I would feel physically sick. And when I drank, it steadied me and I felt better. Now that's drunk. That is old school in the AA literature. All those old stories from Bill Wilson back in like 1944, that was a real drunk and I'm that person. But of course I couldn't see it. But I'm now emulating the exact same behaviors as what my visual of an alcoholic looks like without being the visual.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

You know?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I remember there were many points in that where I just didn't want to wake up. I just want. I just didn't want to be here anymore. I couldn't see a way out of it. I couldn't stop. I couldn't stop, and I couldn't ask for help, and I couldn't. And I couldn't, and I couldn't. All these couldn'ts. And I knew I was kidding myself. And so I thought, one day I'm just gonna die. And I had no fight left. Like, it's all well and good looking back and, oh, my God, I've got my beautiful husband and my beautiful children. But alcohol stripped me away of all of that. It stripped me the ability to care. And that sounds really harsh, but that's the reality of what alcohol did.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, that's so. I mean, you can see how insidious alcohol and drugs are, because here you are, someone who you love your partner, you love your children, but dare I say, in that moment, you love the alcohol.

[Michelle Heaton]

They would not. Absolutely. Yeah. In that moment, I loved alcohol more. That's the best way of putting it.

[Daniel]

Yeah.

[Michelle Heaton]

Like, I needed it. And I got down on my knees and I was praying to God, and it was just. I was just crying out for help.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

What then becomes the turning point for you?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, it was a really rough week, this particular week, and I had a really bad night out in London with some friends, and it became hostile between us, and it was just. I don't really remember much. You know, like, towards the end, I was as drunk one day as the next, and it was all a big blur. And whether I was going out or not, I would have drank Corpus notes beforehand. And I remember arranging a couple of days stay at a friend's house, and Katie Price, being one of my good friends, was meeting me there, and we were gonna hang out for a couple of days. And Kate's not great at keeping up with promises when it comes to showing up to things. She's either late or she just doesn't come. And so I was like, she's never gonna come. I was like, something else is gonna come along, and I'll just have a phone call with her instead. I was like, oh, she's gon. And I remember showing up to my friend's house, and I was in a rough way. And I continued to drink that day, and the host wasn't even drinking, and I was drinking everything that she had. She had an array of things, and I was like, okay, it's going to come soon. We're going to have a great night, you know? And she shows up and on time, and I'm like, great, we've got more drinking time. And no, no, no. That wasn't what I got from Kate. I don't know whether she had spoke to Hugh or whether she had a sixth sense, but she had a feeling I needed help.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And she said that it was a gut feeling. And she brought her book that she had written in the Priory. She had just came out of rehab.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

That's right. That's right. Remember, she was on.

[Michelle Heaton]

We talked about it, and I was a mess. And I said, are you not drinking? She says, no, I'm not drinking anymore. And it was like the old Kate was there in front of me, but I was then this person that I don't even recognize. I see and I recognize her. I recognize it's Katie. She's. That's who I was friends with at the beginning in life, and that's who I've known for all these years. And this is the Kate when she's not drinking. And I was like, how the fuck have you done that? And she's like. She read out all these questions that she got told in the Priory. And I answered yes, yes, yes to every single one of them while crying and drinking.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And drinking.

[Michelle Heaton]

And she got the ball rolling in what would be then my last drink. So she took my phone off me, and Kate rang Hugh and told him that she was gonna get me an appointment to go to rehab. And I'm freaking out.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I'm. And he's kind of met in one hand going, I asked her to do that two years ago.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

Why now? Why with Kate? And the clearest way I can put it now is that Kate had something I didn't in that moment in time, which was sobriety.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I wanted to know how she did it. And so that made me intrigued because she drank like me. Right, Right. And so if she could do it, maybe I could do was the support I had around me and my husband and my friends was always there.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

But they weren't like me. So in order to kind of wake up and listen and see what you're doing, you have to be confronted with the same somebody who's like you, who's now living a better way of life. And that is. It could have been Kate. It could have been anybody. But I was never in a position where I was with somebody who was an ex alcoholic or an alcoholic or drug addicts. I was never with those people. Because the people that I drank and maybe used with put it down. Like, that's crazy for me. And from there, I had. It was a whirlwind of 48 hours. I had three guardian angels over that 48 hours. And I don't speak about the other two much, but Kate got the ball rolling.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

My friend Jackie kept the ball rolling for me. She helped me financially and supported me and my family through a lot of times. And she's still one of my best friends today. And I've been able to repay her in other ways. And then I had Rochelle, who's my bestie, who took me into a home, knowing the state that I was in, knowing I didn't. I couldn't go back to my house for that night before I went to rehab, because I would have talked my way out of it. Oh, okay.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

That's weird.

[Michelle Heaton]

Whereas at the time, Hugh saw it as me not wanting to go back. I think. But my friends would. As. You gonna convince Hugh you're all right if you go back home?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, wow. So Hugh thought you just didn't wanna be back home.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I thought he didn't want me there anyway. But actually, it was my friend who saw that if I went home, she knew I'd talk myself out of it. Talk him out of it. And she took me to the Priory. She delivered me on the doors with her child in the backseat. Cause she was. Yeah, she was just amazing. And I took my last drink at her house. And it was so sad because I stopped the night before. So when I knew I was going into rehab, I actually stopped.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I didn't drink that night. That was the first time in years. But I just thought, I've got a chance. And I stopped. And I remember I was so ill that night. And then the next morning, as I'm getting ready to go in the car to leave, I pick up pink gin. Pink gin. I hated gin. Gin wasn't. I didn't even drink gin when I was desperate. But for some reason, this shiny bottle of pink gin just. And I saw it, and I felt like I was gonna die. And so I. I downed it. And her son walked in and said, auntie Michelle, You're not meant to be doing that, are you? Yeah. And that was low. And. And then I got in the car and. And, you know, when I arrived at rehab, when I arrived at the Priory, it was difficult. Cause I never got to say goodbye to the kids or Hugh. And he was starting a new job at the time. And it was just. It was just the most unideal time in married life that it could be for me to have took four weeks out.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Four weeks. Oh, four weeks, yeah. Wow.

[Michelle Heaton]

But I was very lucky that he. Didn't open up to me. The chaos that was happening with having to get my mum down from Gateshead to come look after the kids so we could go to work, and that call that he had to make to my mum. My mum had no idea of anything.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

That's right.

[Michelle Heaton]

She had no idea that I was this bad.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So if someone believes they are facing addiction right now, they're battling. I'm not sure.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

What would you like to say to them?

[Michelle Heaton]

Do you know what? I think one of the most helpful things that I had, and I did this after I came out of rehab was. I think it was on the AA websites or one of the affiliations for the 12 step program, because I follow 12 step program.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Is. There was this really long questionnaire. It was quite a simple questionnaire. And, you know, the questions are things like, have you ever lied about how much you've drank? I mean, I'm sure almost 99% of us could tick that box, Right?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And then there's like, have you ever manipulated a situation to get what you want? I think if we're all honest, 99% of us have done that. And so. And the questions went on, and the question went, have you ever hidden alcohol so that you can drink it? Have you ever drank it alone? Have you ever shut yourself off so that you can continue the party? And then. And then these questions become more relevant to people who are maybe on the brink of alcoholism. And before you know it, you kind of tick them all. That was what happened to me. Have you had bad consequences? And the consequences for me were getting bigger and bigger daily.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Can I show you something?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

That I think you'll love.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

You ready for this? Oh, gosh, I think you're gonna love this. What's happening in that photo right there? Tell me about that photo.

[Michelle Heaton]

Um, I think this was five days before I got released from rehab, and I was doing really well. And Hugh brought the kids because he had brought them a couple of weeks before that, and it wasn't pleasant for them. And I understood that, okay, you know, mummy's in this big hospital and. But I was doing really well, and I looked so much healthier. And these are on the steps of the Priory. For me, this. This picture just. It's everything in my life that's important to me, and the reason why I went to rehab and just screams, just love, babe. Just love. I think I just see lots of love.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Just a heads up, this next part includes discussion of suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we've included resources in the show. Notes. Please take care while watching with the hysterectomy, there's someone very close to me who is going through trying to figure out if a hysterectomy is the right thing for her.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And I'm involved in, in this process. So from what I know now, is that when you have that removed, you're talking about overnight testosterone, progesterone, estrogen stops.

[Michelle Heaton]

Exactly.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, exactly. And whilst that was articulated to me, I didn't understand it.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Sure, sure.

[Michelle Heaton]

I didn't think about it. I had just had. I had. So timeline wise, I. I knew I was BRCA2 positive, which carries an 80, 85% risk of breast cancer and 30 to 40% risk of ovarian cancer. I was pregnant with Faith when I found out I could have it. And then as soon as she was born, the midwife in the hospital said, do you have any, you know, have you inherited any genetic disorders? And I remember my dad saying, oh, I might have this from him, and put the letter away. Didn't even think about it. And she looked at me stony and just was like, you could have passed that on to your daughter. You really should think about getting tested.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

This is the 2 variant.

[Michelle Heaton]

Sorry?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

This is the BRCA 2 variant.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yes.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay. Because also, too, before you coming in and I was doing my research, I had no idea about the BRCA1 BRCA2.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And I find this to be fascinating, so. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but we all have BRCA1 BRCA2.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yes.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

But there's a variant, and that variant, if passed on, then it dramatically increases the likelihood that to a woman that

[Michelle Heaton]

these cancers are more likely.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And they also take into consideration at what age the other women in my family had these cancers. So you're not just tested randomly, you know, I was offered the test because my dad had the test after his mum died of ovarian and breast cancer and her mum also had them.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I see.

[Michelle Heaton]

So there's a direct link.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I see.

[Michelle Heaton]

And that's how I got offered the test, because my dad was positive, and so I decided to go for the test. Faith was a couple of weeks old, and I remember me and my husband both was just a baby, and we went to get the results and it was positive. And before, before she even finished her Words. I had already decided what I was gonna do. If it was positive. I already knew it was gonna be positive. Of course it was. I was like, yeah, of course I've got it. Not like a poor me attitude, but like, of course I've got it. You know, and this is just. This is another thing. And so I was like, right, when can I have my double mastectomy? And so literally put the motion in chat with that. Like, I obviously had discussed it with Hugh, the. But the risks were really great. Especially at my age, they can't tell you what to do. They can recommend what you should be

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

looking at, but the risks, if I can, just. Because this is also. I think this is such important information for everyone. Is that. So a person who inherits BRCA1 or BRCA2 variant has a 50% chance of passing that variant on to a child.

[Michelle Heaton]

That's correct.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Right. And then the BRCA variant gene, it increases your risk of breast cancer between. Of getting breast cancer between 50 and 90%. So 50 to 90% higher than people without.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. And we're already living in a world where, you know, so many people are affected by cancer.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes. And then on top of this, 1 in 400 people have the faulty BRCA1 or BRCA2 genes. So I can now understand the position that you're in. Immediately you find out, you think, I'm going to have a mastectomy, which is the removal of both breasts. But now, did you consult with anyone? No. Didn't talk to anyone?

[Michelle Heaton]

No, I. I mean, obviously, like, there was pamphlets and when they told me about it, they, they. They talked through my options and. But I was very, you know, I was visually prepared for just this. Let's just get it done. This was before I had aj, my second child, and let's just get rid of the risk. Like, I'm in that emotional just giving birth moment where I'm looking at Faith and I'm thinking, first of all, I could have passed it onto her now. And also, I don't want her as a young child to go through watching her mum, what my dad did with his mum and so forth. What I looked like after. It was in no way a talking point of the procedure.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

It was a different way. I mean, can we spend a moment on that? Because I understand the risk that you're calculating, but. And I'm not a woman, so I can't fully put myself in your shoes. But for someone who had placed so much value in external validation and how her body looked to have a mastectomy, Seems to be a major decision.

[Michelle Heaton]

At the time, I think I was. You know, there wasn't a career anyway. You know, at that point, I was being a mom, and I wasn't gigging. There wasn't any Liberty Ex girls or anything like that at that moment in time. And I think I was just in a content, happy place, but overruled by emotion because I've just given birth, that I just made it on an emotional decision.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And didn't think about the consequences. And I know I definitely made the hysterectomy on an emotional choice, and I definitely didn't think about the consequences in that decision. I knew that going in with the double mastectomy that. That there was a risk that I would wake up without anything. Had they found anything in there, like cancer cells or anything at all that they thought that they needed to further investigate? So I knew that there was a big risk there.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

But what they did was they were able to reconstruct my breasts. What they used was a small implant, and they used something called stratus.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Which is kind of like, what's the best way of doing it? Like, made up flesh is probably the best way that I could describe it. So it's. It. They make flesh like substance. Because after the mastectomy, double mastectomy, there's nothing there. It's just. It's just the skin, right?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

So they have to build up around this implant. You can't just put an implant in without having any flesh around it. And so they were reconstructed. And so I woke up with what looked like breasts.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And, yeah. So, I mean, you know, that was. That was done. And I was like, okay. I didn't talk to anybody. Faith was young, cracked on, you know, had the scars there, and I had no feeling in my breasts. I didn't even think about the consequences of breastfeeding. If I had another child, I had it done. And then within a matter of months, the opportunity for Liberty X to be reunited for the big reunion came along, and then I was back out on tour. Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Wow. So when you had your hysterectomy, did you talk to anyone and were you aware of the consequences of it?

[Michelle Heaton]

I was. Me and my husband were looking at having it done. And what options that we had. One of the options was keyhole surgery to get rid of just the ovaries, which was what was going to happen. And I remember we were. We were deciding whether to try for any more children or go ahead. And I think, like, I had, you know, just. I was Just so fearful. I didn't know which way to turn. Anyway, we were. We had a moment on our couch at home, me and Hugh, one moment. And we actively were trying not to get pregnant because I was on tour, things were going great. I had a Christmas tour going. We made every precaution necessary to not get pregnant. And I found out I was pregnant two weeks later.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Wow.

[Michelle Heaton]

With AJ and completely unexpected. Very blessed to have got pregnant so quickly. Both were. Faith was the first day trying. So very blessed. And we saw it as a sign just to calm things down for a bit and have this next child and then maybe look at getting it done. And so then I went into Plan Road, which is what I do, and just planned things out. I knew when AJ was coming, you know, I had to have a C section because I had an emergency C section with Faith because of my heart.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

And so we didn't want to run the risks. So Faith becomes a C section because of the risks involved. And so then that was told. That's what I have to do for AJ So that I knew when I was having my new date. And then six months to that date, I had booked in my hysterectomy. And so I knew even before AJ was born that that was our plan. That was my plan, right? Getting this done, getting that done. And that's kind of how I dealt with things. And I had a really rough time with aj. They put him on my chest to nuzzle, and I couldn't give him any milk. And, you know, the most natural thing in the world. And I hated breastfeeding Faith anyway, so I was like, it's not a big deal. But in that moment, I totally forgot that I couldn't breastfeed. Then he starts crying, and I'm like, oh, fuck, I can't give him anything. And then he. You know, he was refusing the bottle, and it was. It was different, and it was really hard, and he gets sick. He gets meningitis. And he was only six weeks, I think, and don't want to say, oh, my God, I blame myself, but I can't fundamentally blame myself. I put a fundament.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So with meningitis, it's an infection of the protective membranes around the brain and the spinal cord, and if not treated, it can cause sepsis or permanent damage to the brain and nerves. And now I can connect it with your health history, thinking that you are in part, which, you know, you're not. You know you're not. Do you still feel this way today, Michelle? Do. Do. Do you still feel this way today.

[Michelle Heaton]

I mean, we'll never know, right? That's the thing. Like, you can't tell me. I wasn't.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Right.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Well. Well, can we unpack? What I feel like you are saying here is that you feel as if you were a cause to this, you know, to the meningitis that AJ had. Right. But do you also realize you are the cause of the life that AJ had? Do you know that? Do you realize that?

[Michelle Heaton]

No. I think when you become a parent, you question every day, right?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

Like, I constantly question myself. And AJ's now like, he's coming to himself, like he's flying, but he has dyslexia as well, and he's got. He wears glasses, although he does wear contacts now. And so all of these little things that has occurred in little AJ's life.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay. I understand. It doesn't. Doesn't bear down to, oh, I couldn't give him my breast milk. I get that. I do understand the difference. However, the meningitis was more likely to be a cause of these other things, and he got meningitis because he had a weak immune system at which I could not give him ultimately, the right vitamins and minerals from our breast milk because I had chosen to have my breasts taken away, and that's where it stems from.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And you chose to have your breasts taken away so that you could be alive for your loved ones.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I get that. But it's easier to blame myself than for pity.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes. And I see a pattern of blame throughout your life, but I think grace is such a powerful, misunderstood word. Right. And it's one of the most compelling, important things that we can give ourselves. And I think the question, the big question that you have to answer, and let me ask you this, is when you decided to have the mastectomy, when you. Let's go back to that moment, what strikes me is you said you didn't consult with anyone. Right. Did you do the best you could at the time with the information you had?

[Michelle Heaton]

Yes. Yes.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Then you give yourself grace. That's it. You did, and I know you did. Do you know more now? Absolutely. Are you more aware of consequences? Are you more aware of what you could and couldn't do? Absolutely. Today. But at that moment, you did the best you could with the information you had, and for that, you give yourself grace.

[Michelle Heaton]

Thank you.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And AJ and Faith right now, how old are they?

[Michelle Heaton]

AJ's 12 and faith is 14.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Right? They are 12 and 14. Thriving.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Can I give you another surprise?

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, God. I don't know if I could take anymore.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I want you to take a look at this.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay. Hi, Mum. We're so proud of you and everything you've achieved over the past five years. You're the best mum I've been. Love hanging out with you. And even though you're crazy, we love you all. Love you. Bye. Oh, my God. Oh, they are so cute. I love it. They're like. They're, like, auditioning for a role on Soap Opera. They've taken that request very literally. I can. I can see that.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

You know, I was looking at this. I was saying, you know what they are? Actors.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. That's what they are. Actors. That's what they do. They are actors. I mean, aj, he's come on so much.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Look how life can change.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

You know, look how beautiful life can be. This is a big week for you.

[Michelle Heaton]

It is.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. I turned five years clean as sober.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

There you go.

[Michelle Heaton]

This week. Thank you very much.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And five years ago, I understand Hugh wrote you a letter.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yes.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And this is you entering the Priory.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yes.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

From what I understand.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yes.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

And that had a profound impact on you.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. And Hugh has written you another letter. This is it. And I'd love to read it to you if I could,

[Michelle Heaton]

because I remember that letter he did in the Priory. And it's. It's heartbreaking that I become that woman.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So this is what he has just written to you. Okay.

[Michelle Heaton]

Okay.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Michelle, five years ago, I wrote you a letter from a place of fear and pain, hoping you would find your way back. Today I write from a place of pure pride and love. You faced every demon and every challenge, rebuilt trust and given our family back the warmth we'd almost lost. I've watched you come back to the woman I always knew was there. Resilient. Kind. A little crazy. And an incredible mother. Our kids look at you now with admiration, knowing their mother is the strongest person in the room. You didn't just overcome addiction, you reclaimed your life. And you've made our life full of love and happiness again every day. I'm grateful for the laughter we share, the life we live, and most of all, for the woman. You've never stopped being my soulmate. We love you endlessly, and we're so proud of you. Love. And I love how he ended it. Is it your twat?

[Michelle Heaton]

What's his name?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Look at this.

[Michelle Heaton]

Your twat. Oh, my God. He did that. I call him a twat every day.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, you do? That's.

[Michelle Heaton]

That's the kind of relationship that we have. Like, he's a rat. Twat. He never puts his seat down. He's Twat.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

That is your love name for him.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. That is so true. I didn't even think about it.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, my God.

[Michelle Heaton]

But my love. Language for Huey. You're a twat. Oh, my God.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

How beautiful is he?

[Michelle Heaton]

I love that. Either. That was a big typo. So either I find it funny, or he's gonna be devastated.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I'm going to give this to you when you leave.

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, amazing. Thank you so much.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

How you like these gifts? Not bad.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah. The gifts that keep on coming, and I mean, right now, I can't see straight, so all of the emotion and the tears have swollen me right up.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I tell you, it's been a lot.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, it has.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So we have gone on a ride, haven't we?

[Michelle Heaton]

Wow.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Are you ready for the final question, then?

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, gosh. Go on, then.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

There's one more question. Do you want one more question?

[Michelle Heaton]

What do I want to eat? Oh, and Nando's. Me, I starve.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, I know. Are you hungry? That's the question, though.

[Michelle Heaton]

I'm always hungry.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

All right, the question is this. Everyone gets it. You've had. You definitely, Michelle, have had incredible conversations throughout your entire life. Which one stands out as the most memorable? Who was it with, and what did you learn?

[Michelle Heaton]

Oh, my God. The question is, you know, who's. What's the most important conversation that you've had? You know, other than, like, the obvious, like, with my kids.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Right.

[Michelle Heaton]

About my alcoholism and my husband, about what went on. Other than that kind of stuff, what's been the most impactful and what have I learned from it then? I would wholeheartedly say this today. Like, I've done podcasts before. I've spoke openly about things and. But there's been moments in here that I didn't even think, hadn't even acknowledged or spoke about or felt comfortable to. So being in the presence of someone who's made me feel comfortable has allowed me to open up. And that's not often. You know, I'm comfortable with my husband, but I wouldn't just. You don't just sit there with your partner and have really deep, meaningful conversations all the time. You very rarely do. There's not enough time in the day anyway. And I think what I've took away from this and what I've learned is that it has been a colorful life, and there's a lot that I hadn't realized that I hadn't dealt with and what that might look like in the future. I need to look at myself and and also just how blessed I am. Like, it, you know, all these things that we've listed and all the things that's going on with my heart and whatever, you know, like, I am. I ultimately have come away from this not feeling poor. Me. Like, yeah, I've had a shit show, but, like, just how lucky I am. I. I got to date Gary Lucy and I got to. I got to. Oh, my God, I got to be a pop star.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

And I got to marry the man of my dreams and have two point. Was it 2.2 children, you know, and I've got two dogs. I've got two Labradors. I've got a beautiful home. We've got a gym in our garden. And. And I've got. I'm in a relationship who fully supports me and who still looks like Paul Walker and he's gorgeous. And I get to do this amazing thing, like. Like, I'm so lucky. Like, I'm. I know I am. I'm so lucky. And all these things in life, and I say it to people who are going through. Through tough times, you know, they're all meant to. To teach us something. And it's hard to take your own advice, isn't it? So, like, I can say that to someone and make them believe it. And then. And then I'm like, what's the meaning of that?

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

However, I do believe everything happened for a reason. That's one thing I do believe in. I believe in those God moments. I do believe in a higher power, whatever that might look like. Not a religious God per se, but as a mother nature, as a fate. Everything happens for a reason, in that order, to make you the person that you are today. And I believe that I was able to unearth some of those things today because of what's happened in my past. Yes, definitely. And I thank you for that.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

I tell you, I am honored by what you just said. And I will just add one thing. You talked about how rich your life is, because I was telling you how I consider your life to be a rich life and all these incredible relationships that you have. But you are also loved by us.

[Michelle Heaton]

Thank you.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

You know what I mean? You are loved and adored by us, and we all want you to continue to shine your light.

[Michelle Heaton]

Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, it's been incredible conversation.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yeah, it's been a lot. It's been amazing. It's been emotional. And I want to thank you for getting some things out of me that I didn't think I needed. But also, you show me those little Things. Right. The surprises. Like, whilst I've seen that photo before and I've seen that photo for, you know, the words that they express in the letters, especially, you know, Kelly and Jess and Hugh.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes.

[Michelle Heaton]

You don't. Even if they say that every day, you don't hear it.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Yes. Well, guess what? You get all of these.

[Michelle Heaton]

Yay.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

You get all of them.

[Michelle Heaton]

I can't wait to ring. Oh, by the way, Jessica from Liberty X adores you.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, my goodness.

[Michelle Heaton]

Kelly.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, my God.

[Michelle Heaton]

She wanted me to specifically say she loves you.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Oh, my goodness.

[Michelle Heaton]

And everything that you do. So I promised her I would say that.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Well, I greatly appreciate it. I absolutely adore Michelle. I knew I would. I may not have had the exact struggle. I've had the exact dilemma her friends and family have. And so to me, she's such a rock star. And what I mean by rock star is that she was a rock star. You know, she was a pop icon and continues to be a pop icon. But she's gone through so much turmoil but become better as a result. That, to me, is. It's beautiful now hearing about her life, you know, she's had some of the most challenging, therefore profound conversations. And for her to say this is one of those, among those many is. I can only feel honored, you know, And I think it speaks to everything that we do here and we try to do with the podcast. And hopefully people who watch will take this into their lives, especially with it being Mental Health Awareness Week. It's so important that we have these conversations. It's so important that we learn to hold space for our loved ones so that they can feel heard and they can feel seen. And that's what eventually helps us to feel whole.

[Mylene Klass]

I walked in on my ex with a famous person on my birthday. My life literally just broke apart very, very publicly.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Who was it with?

[Mylene Klass]

That'll definitely get your lawyers in a rattle pickle. And it was overnight fame, selling millions of records. Music industry is the wild west. I have been screwed over by agents, managers, stole the money.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

So who do you trust at this time?

[Mylene Klass]

Only each other. And it was heartbreaking because I didn't want it to end.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Can we talk about relationship?

[Mylene Klass]

Okay, let's go there. I asked him why he wouldn't sign the prenup. I was just crying my eyes out the entire wedding.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Why was the divorce so contentious?

[Mylene Klass]

I was at just please don't take my money. He just pushed this little post it note across the table with the figure he wanted.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Let's talk about son, your new man.

[Mylene Klass]

I had a new lease of life.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

At what point did you feel as if this could be my partner?

[Mylene Klass]

The image of my baby floating down into the dark will haunt me till the day I die. Every year it felt I was pregnant and every year I lost a baby. It's just torture. So many women don't get to hold their babies in order to. To make change. It doesn't happen in clinics. It happens in Westminster.

[Paul (Podcast Host)]

Your advocacy has resulted in you having an MBE, Mylene. You are a national treasure.