Real Housewives' PK: “I Knew It Was Over” The Truth About My Marriage & The Show

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson

Episode: Real Housewives' PK: “I Knew It Was Over” The Truth About My Marriage & The Show

Date: April 28, 2026
Guest: PK Kemsley
Host: Paul C. Brunson

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Paul C. Brunson sits down with Paul "PK" Kemsley—businessman, reality TV figure, and former manager to Boy George and Pele—for his first in-depth public conversation about his life, successes, struggles, and the end of his marriage to Dorit Kemsley of "The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills." The discussion is raw and honest, spanning childhood adversity, business triumphs and downfalls, the impact of reality TV, and his ongoing journey to self-acceptance.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Early Life, Family, and Anti-Semitism

Timestamps: 03:44–06:43

• PK grew up in Stanmore, Middlesex, in a loving, close-knit Jewish family as one of three boys.
• Faced anti-Semitism:
  • “Yid was the word that we used to get called. I remember being at a Jewish youth club when I was about 13 and there was... 60, 70 skinheads outside throwing stones at the window and screaming at us. It was scary...” (05:54)
• Was not from a religious household; family values and tradition were key.

---

2. From Humble Beginnings to Business Success

Timestamps: 06:48–13:04

• PK left school with only a few qualifications and entered real estate.
• Early success with Bonet Town Hall and Wetherspoons:
  • “I paid 175,000 and I rented it to Wetherspoons for 75,000 a year and they paid three quarters of a million premium...the deal made a million...that was the first deal.” (11:53–12:12)
• At age 27/28, he made £250,000—immediately bought a Porsche, against his accountant father’s advice.

---

3. Building and Losing a Billion-Pound Real Estate Empire

Timestamps: 13:17–19:15

• PK describes his ascent as driven by a need for money, status, and being “in amongst it” with major players.
• He credits his rise to “flair” (intuition for real estate), “backing,” and deliberately surrounding himself with people who made him feel like a pauper to keep striving.
• On the 2008 financial crash:
  • “There was no avoiding it...unless you [took] your chips off the table before, but ironically, nobody was doing that.” (18:48)
  • “They took a snapshot of my real estate...in the worst period in 100 years, then said, you owe us 526 million pounds and your real estate’s only worth 300. Which, of course, it was worth miles more, but...” (19:44)
• After bankruptcy, PK lost social and professional access, likening it to being shut out of clubs as a teenager (21:22).

---

4. The Voyage to America and the Real Housewives Franchise

Timestamps: 22:06–38:48

• After bankruptcy and negative press in the UK, PK relocated to New York, seeking a professional reset.
• Eventually, he and Dorit moved to Los Angeles.
• On joining “Real Housewives”:
  • “Money, power, and celebrity…your quickest entry point if you want to live in LA, is celebrity.” (30:02)
• He orchestrated Dorit’s successful casting, filling their home with “the most eclectic group of guests...the richest guy in the room and the poorest guy in the room.” (31:39)
• PK makes clear he wanted to “show her off”—he believed in her talent and charisma (36:04).
• Admits that the show’s editing creates false narratives and that toxicity is foundational to the franchise.
  • “In its very core, it’s based on trauma...It’s very toxic. It’s got worse. But none of the people on that show are married anymore except Kathy Hilton.” (28:29–28:42)

---

5. Marriage, Divorce, and Reality TV’s Impact

Timestamps: 23:44–44:31

• PK is adamant he won’t litigate his divorce in public:
  • “Everything I do, I want to be in the long-term, best interests of our kids...I don’t want to add to those consequences. I just don’t.” (25:33)
• He feels responsible for leading Dorit into reality TV and for the consequences that followed.
  • “I have absolute accountability for going down that avenue. And I made some very significant mistakes in not acting when I saw it going wrong.” (33:02)
• On self-reflection following divorce:
  • “I didn’t realize how much it would affect me emotionally and drain me and put me back into a place that I didn’t want to be in.” (44:08)
• Admits ongoing struggle with self-worth, pride, and clarity.
  • “Do you love yourself? Not yet...Are you proud of yourself? Nope...Do you respect what you’ve created? Nope.” (46:33–46:42)

---

6. The Toll of Public Judgement and Social Media

Timestamps: 49:31–50:27

• PK and Paul discuss trolling, overwhelming public opinion, and its ripple effect on families.
  • “My mum, you know, my dad’s 88...he has to listen to his daughter-in-law speaking, how she’s speaking. And it affects him.” (49:37)
• PK blocks negativity and avoids reading most online comments but struggles with addictive personality traits that make it tempting.

---

7. Positive Takeaways: Friendships, Lessons, and Wisdom

Timestamps: 50:59–64:58

• Despite trauma, PK attests to friendships developed via the show, notably with Mauricio and producer Alex Baskin (“That was a gift from the show. I got a great friendship.”).
• On the value of life experiences and wisdom:
  • “Now when you’re able to impart that wisdom with other people, suddenly you...have the answers...I guess it’s wisdom through experience.” (64:18)
• Considers starting a new chapter focused on mentoring and sharing hard-earned wisdom.

---

8. Celebrity Management: Pele, Boy George, and Unique Partnerships

Timestamps: 52:18–61:04

• PK’s move from real estate to reviving the New York Cosmos football club, including working with Pele:
  • “It’s like buying Wham without George Michael...The Cosmos without Pele, legacy wise and history wise, is worth nothing.” (54:14)
• Friendship with Boy George:
  • “PK is a classic Leo who will fight for himself as hard as he fights for you...He is my friend first and manager second. Super sweet.” (61:40, Boy George’s letter)
• PK values honesty and the unique bond with Boy George—“when we fall out, we fall out...and then we’re just over it.” (61:11)

---

9. Vulnerability, Resilience, and Ongoing Self-Discovery

Timestamps: 65:04–66:39

• PK acknowledges he’s “always getting back up”—for his children, friends, and family, and hopes to one day do it for himself.
  • "I get back up for my friends and my family. And I hope one day that I’m getting back up for myself. But at the moment, I don’t know if I’m doing that yet." (65:55)
• Paul highlights PK’s journey as one of resilience, not just reinvention.

---

10. Most Profound Conversation of His Life

Timestamps: 66:39–69:13

• PK shares the most memorable conversation with his late brother-in-law, Raz, who faced terminal cancer and had to choose how to spend his final year.
  • “So I guess the most profound conversation I ever had was talking to someone who had to choose between fighting for life or accepting the circumstances and living.” (68:32)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On responsibility for the marriage’s ending:
  • "Who lit the fire? I lit the fire because I put her on the show." (27:15)
• On reality TV’s impact:
  • “That show shows only a...it’s not my life. It’s a TV show that shows snippets...They cut it, they edit, they show things. They allow storylines that even the producers know are not true to grow because that’s the brilliance of the show.” (27:25–28:29)
• On self-acceptance:
  • “I’m not there yet. I’m not. Will I get there? I hope so. I really hope so.” (48:11)
• On recovery and legacy:
  • "I'm always getting back up. And you know what? I always will because I've got five kids that I have to get back up for." (65:39)
• On the unique bond with Boy George:
  • [Reading Boy George’s note] “He is my friend first and manager second. Super sweet.” (61:36)

---

Conclusion

This episode of "We Need To Talk" offers a rare, deeply personal perspective from PK Kemsley on the interplay between personal ambition, public spectacle, and private pain. He is strikingly candid about self-blame, the corrosive power of reality television, unresolved wounds, and the lingering hope of redemption. Despite all, PK’s unyielding resilience and quest for self-respect shines through. The conversation is a masterclass in the kind of hard, necessary talk the podcast strives to model—and will be of special value to anyone navigating life under scrutiny or wrestling with personal reinvention.

---

For further insights:

• Key segment: Marriage, divorce, and reality TV: 23:44–44:31
• Most profound conversation (PK’s closing reflection): 66:59–69:13

---

Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

Last night, you spent two hours deciding what to wear to the party this morning. It'll take you two minutes to list it on Depop and make your money back. Just grab your phone, snap a few photos, and we'll take care of the rest. The sheer dress and platform heels you'll never wear again. There's a birthday girl searching for them right now. Your one and done look is about to pay for your next night out, or at least the ride home. Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste.

[PK Kemsley]

Hey, Mama.

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

Thanks for making all my favorite recipes.

[PK Kemsley]

Hi, Ma. Thanks for your unfiltered advice. Hi, Mom. Thanks for always being by the phone. Hey, Mom. Happy Mother's Day.

[Commercial Narrator]

When you ship UPS air at the UPS store, your items arrive on time or your money back, guaranteed at no extra cost. Exclusively at the UPS store US retail locations. Visit theupsstore.com airshipping for full details. Terms and conditions apply. Send your Mother's Day gifts at the UPS store and we'll get your gratitude there on time.

[PK Kemsley]

I'm not blaming my divorce on the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. But the truth is, the biggest question I have is, is Dorit where she was always going to be, or was I responsible for putting her in that world? And then that world created what happened now? I can't believe we're sitting here still talking about it. It's just nonsense. I wanted money. I wanted status.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

It is.

[PK Kemsley]

But the madness hadn't started yet.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

What caused the implosion of everything that you had built?

[PK Kemsley]

Me. They're casting for the Housewives. I'd never seen the show, didn't know anything about it, but I believe that I had the most beautiful, charismatic, ferociously ambitious wife, and I wanted to show her off. I knew how to do it, so we did it. And the rest, unfortunately, is history. They create these scenarios that just didn't happen.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Are there any that you want to address?

[PK Kemsley]

Suddenly I'm looking at my wife and saying, who are you?

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Wow. Do you love yourself?

[PK Kemsley]

Not yet.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Are you proud of yourself?

[PK Kemsley]

Nope.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Do you respect what you've created?

[PK Kemsley]

Nope.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You don't.

[PK Kemsley]

The only real victims are gonna be the kids. Unless we're f Cking careful. So I'm gonna do what I can to protect them. Maybe I do need to talk. Hey, there.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Before we begin the episode, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for choosing we need to Talk. Doing this podcast is one of the greatest joys of my life, and I want to continue to share it with you. So hit Follow. And the Bell icon. It takes just a second, and it helps us to continue to grow this podcast. PK Kemsley, we need to talk.

[PK Kemsley]

Let's talk.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Here's where I'd love to start. You haven't talked about your story ever before. Why now?

[PK Kemsley]

Well, first of all, I think the world's moved on. So when I built my career and created, or started to create whatever legacy I now have, we weren't in the world of let's share it, let's talk about it. I mean, when I grew up, you watched Michael Parkinson, you watched Terry Wogan, and that was basically it. So we're now in the era of podcasts and people wanting to share, and I think that hopefully I can provide some form of inspiration to young entrepreneurs who want to get on.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Well, I can't wait to go through your life with you because I think there's a lot of similarities that we have, especially around different areas of passion.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah, you said that. That's exciting for me.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Can we begin with where you grew up? So it's Middlesex. Yeah.

[PK Kemsley]

I grew up in Stanmore Middle. Sex. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay, so where on the map is that for me?

[PK Kemsley]

So it's the end of the Jubilee line.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

Right. So essentially, take Wembley and keep going north, northwest.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay. But when you were growing up there. So let's look at the 70s.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

How would you describe it? What was it like?

[PK Kemsley]

I grew up in a very loving home. My father, who's the most Beautiful man, he's 88 now. He was an accountant. He's got no money now, so he obviously wasn't very good at accounting. But my mum was a typical Jewish mother.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

Very caring, very all about the three boys, because I'm one of three boys. I think I was the favorite. My older brother certainly thinks I was the favorite. We used to walk to school. School was exactly as you've seen it in the movies. I mean, you get. If you were naughty, you get caned. Tensions. Yeah. I got beaten up on a bus and, you know, came across anti Semitism and, you know, couldn't get into clubs and was a bit of a geek when I was younger and didn't get a girlfriend till I was, like, 16 and all of that stuff, but nothing that you and I would look back at now and say was traumatic.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

And so it was traumatic. But, you know, I was gonna ask you about that. So you must have faced anti Semitism because of the 70s. When I read about the 70s, the Jewish community was really on this uprise, and the middle class and the Jewish community was really reaching the middle class at new numbers. Right. Unprecedented numbers. But there was still a significant, I think, backlash and aggression towards Jewish people in and around the uk, actually, in and around the world. But did you feel that?

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

And how would you describe it?

[PK Kemsley]

There's no question. There were times when I was younger that I did not admit I was Jewish at school. You know, yid was the word that we used to get called. I remember being at a Jewish youth club when I was about 13 and there was a. I don't know, 60, 70 skinheads outside throwing stones at the window and screaming at us. It was. It was scary, but I didn't experience it in, like every day. I didn't wake up, you know, cowering, but I definitely experienced it. And there were definitely. There was definitely a period at my junior school that I was the only Jewish kid in the class. Do you know what I mean? But we were not religious Jews or anything. We were kind of more. More about the family values and the traditions, you know.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay. You had no qualifications coming out of school?

[PK Kemsley]

No. All right, well, I had a few O levies. Don't write me off. I think I got a B in re. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

So with Rock in particular, I find this to be so fascinating. So I was an investment banker at one point in my career. Been around a lot of entrepreneurs. But the rise, how quickly you grew Rock, from nothing to what was it, a valuation of almost a billion pounds? It was more than a billion pounds. So you grew this company to a valuation of over a billion pounds. If you can help us to understand how you were able to do that.

[PK Kemsley]

So you'd have to break it down because it's never one thing. So if we talk about what did I want at that time? I wanted money, I wanted status and I wanted to be in amongst it. Okay, right. When I say in amongst it, you know, in amongst the then billionaires, the then traders, the investment bankers. I was lucky. I had a flair for real estate for sure. So I worked up through the ranks and then I met Mike Ashley.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes. Sports director.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah. He's one of the UK's most successful ever entrepreneurs. And he put me through a tough apprenticeship because I left the real estate business and went to work for what is now Sports Direct. But I went in as a real estate guy, so he wanted me to acquire the stores for him.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

And I had this crazy year, funny enough, it's quite a funny story. So I think I bought him 16 stores in a year. And he said to me, after about nine months. He goes, pk, there's something very strange about the acquisition policy of the stores you're opening. He said, but they just seem to be everywhere. There's no. You're not doing any. So he said, I've got a feeling I know what it is. And I said, well, what is it? He said, well, you keep opening stores where Tottenham are playing away. Right? Cause basically I'd go to Sunderland to watch Tottenham.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

And then to justify the trip, I'd get a store for Mike Ashley there. So literally, the Sports Direct acquisition policy, when I was the real estate guy, was Tottenham away? Literally.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Literally, yeah. Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

All right.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

If I could just unpack that a little bit. But where is the rhyme to reason in that? Where is the genius in that? Where's. Because this did very well for Mike Ashley in Sports.

[PK Kemsley]

Well, I certainly he would credit me with persuading him to go out of town, take the big sheds out of town.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

And he had me in the warehouse on a Saturday night counting clothes. And I didn't want to be in the warehouse on a Saturday night counting clothes. And he didn't pay me very much. And again, I wouldn't encourage this. I'm not encouraging it. It was a different time. But certainly there was a bit of that in my early 20s of having to hustle, really have to hustle, because how would you ever break through? And I knew that I wanted to be on my own. I knew I didn't wanna work for anyone.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

That I knew very early.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

So that was that drive to be in control of my own destiny. And then the whole how am I enough? Thing starts.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

It kicks in. So how would you describe what Rock did as a company?

[PK Kemsley]

So Rock started with my cousin, my second cousin, Vincent, who's still super, super close friend of mine. He owned the Barnet Town hall. And he could not, for the life of him, sell it, rent it or do anything. So he said, why don't you take a look at it for me? And I went and took a look at it and I said to him, this is an obvious restaurant to me. I said, and I think these are the people we should go to. And it was called Pizzeria Uno.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Pizzeria Uno. Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

And I approached them and they took it. And all of a sudden, my cousin, instead of losing money, made money.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

I see it.

[PK Kemsley]

And then he said, all right, we gotta get this kid involved and do more. Why don't you focus on restaurants and pubs? And that's exactly what I did. My very first property deal was A tram shed in Highbury Corner. Places.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

Because I ended up. What I ended up, Tom. Highbury Corner. I bought it for 175,000. You can say. Well, where did you get the money? I got the money from my uncle and my cousin.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

And they said I could have 25% of the profit and I paid 175,000 and I rented it to Wetherspoons for 75,000 a year and they paid three quarters of a million premium.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Look at that.

[PK Kemsley]

So the deal made a million.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

And I got 250,000.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

250, yeah.

[PK Kemsley]

I got 250.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes. Look at that.

[PK Kemsley]

And that was the first deal.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

And how old are you? You just make 250,000?

[PK Kemsley]

I was 27, 28.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay, 27, 28.

[PK Kemsley]

Right.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Lot of money. A lot of money and more. So I would imagine that gives you confidence.

[PK Kemsley]

Definitely gave you confidence. I was pretty stupid then. I went out immediately and I bought a Porsche.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Did you?

[PK Kemsley]

I did. I bought a red one.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

9 11.

[PK Kemsley]

9 11. And my dad, who's an accountant, said, rough rule of thumb, son, your car should never be more than 20% of the value of your house. Your car is 110% the value of your house. Right. So I had these good lessons coming in, but I didn't listen. No, I didn't listen.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

No. I mean, but, you know, you did quite well because that was the beginning of rock at its heyday. The biggest. Right. What was the valuation and what were some of the flagship properties?

[PK Kemsley]

So the. At its biggest, which would have been 2007. It would have been the peak.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

In 2007, the real estate was worth over a billion.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

What do you attribute your success to at that point? Is it still this thought of not being enough?

[PK Kemsley]

I think it would be very easy and very spiritual to say that. And I'd love to say that's what drove that. I always hung around with people that made me feel unsuccessful. I had this. I always did that. It would have been very easy for me to be the richest guy in my world.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

And be the king. But I didn't. I was the pauper in a bigger world.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

So I used to hang around with people that were bigger than me and listen was all about access to money.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

Which quite frankly, is the same today. I mean, it hasn't really changed.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah. The numbers and quantum have changed and it's so much more difficult for the kids these days because the banks are closed, they're just not available.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Right.

[PK Kemsley]

So you have to find brilliant entrepreneurs to Back you and someone to see some value in you. I had the banks that saw the value in me. I see it. And they supported my expansion. So you have to have a bit of flair and then you have to have backing.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay. Flair backing. And you said you hung around people who made you feel like a pauper. Basically.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

I would imagine Sir Alan Sugar is one of those people.

[PK Kemsley]

He is.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Right. So how did you meet him? Because then I understand he's the one who brings you into what must be a dream position at Tottenham.

[PK Kemsley]

He didn't bring me in.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Oh, he didn't do that.

[PK Kemsley]

No. But he was absolutely involved. So I was friendly and remained very friendly with his son. And Daniel told me that he was buying spurs and did I want to get involved. And of course my boyhood club, I said, duh. Yeah. So we bought it off of Alan Sugar. So it wasn't Alan that brought me in. And then Alan, through his son asked me to go on the Apprentice as the interviewer. So I became more and more friendly with Daniel and I became friendly with Alan. I mean, I looked up to Alan. You know, he's one of the few people that I would say that I've met in my life whose handshake means something.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

You shake that guy's hand, he's doing it where he's from and everything. He is. You may not like his style or his way. Brutally honest and all that. And over the years we had some run ins and he wasn't always super nice to me and I was quite sensitive. But one thing I'd say about him is everything that he ever. Certainly my experience, everything he ever said he do. He did.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

He did, yeah. You know, this is the second time that you've brought up sensitivity.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Which I find so interesting. Cause I would not have assume that.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah. But I'm sitting here even feeling a little bit of anxiety talking about this period of my life. Cause it feels like another life ago. And it feels so unimportant in the making of who I am or who I want to be. But it's definitely part of my journey.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes, it is.

[PK Kemsley]

But the madness hadn't started yet.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

No, exactly.

[PK Kemsley]

The madness hadn't even started.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

It hadn't. But you can see how the underpinnings of it are beginning to fester. With your first wife as well. What I saw is how many years were you married? Because I saw One article said nine, another 20. How many years in total?

[PK Kemsley]

We got married in 1991 and the divorce went through in 2011. So we were married 20 years.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yeah. Look at that. Okay, 20 years. 20 years. So then that's interesting. So you remained married after 2008, which was life changing for many people. Yeah.

[PK Kemsley]

But specifically for you, 2009. 2009 was the moment that the shit hit the fan. 2008, we were still hanging on.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah. Even though it was over, I now know it was over. You know, when something over, it doesn't just go.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Right.

[PK Kemsley]

It's sort of.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

You know, peters out. It's end of life.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

What caused what we call the demise, the implosion of everything that you had built?

[PK Kemsley]

Me. Me. A lot of contributing factors, but I think my downfall was my own downfall.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

I think the downfall of the marriage was me. Lack of control going back into that, you know, lack of acceptance, lack of awareness, ambition. Me not accepting what had happened. Acceptance. Just a lot of things. Certainly there is a whole commercial reality that if you're on a beach and a tsunami hits and you're naked, you can't climb up a tree, you're getting taken out by the wave. That was the credit crunch.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

So it doesn't matter. All the mistakes I made, ultimately, I couldn't have avoided it. There was no avoiding it. Unless you say, well, you could have taken your chips off the table before, but ironically, nobody was doing that. And not only that, I was doing what you're supposed to do, which is you're supposed to keep your real estate. I kept all my real estate. The only building I ever sold was the Ned. I kept everything.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

I didn't realize I was going to lose the whole lot, though.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

And then the corporate stuff, what went on with the governments and the whole credit crunch. It's well written about now, but they took a snapshot of my real estate, basically in the worst period in 100 years, then said, you owe us 526 million pounds and your real estate's only worth 300. Which, of course it was worth miles more, but.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Right, right.

[PK Kemsley]

It's like, you know, on doomsday, like saying that the real estate's only worth 300 when it's worth 2 billion or whatever. And then so you have to make the money up, otherwise we're taking it.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Right. So then in that period.

[PK Kemsley]

So that part I couldn't have done anything else, anything about. But everything else that went wrong was on me.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

It was on you. But. But I can't imagine the weight as well, because if this is 2009, 2010, you probably know your marriage is over as well.

[PK Kemsley]

I know it's not going to last. Yeah, yeah. But I had. That was within my capability and my choice. Yes, I knew.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

But you did. Right. So you still have the weight of that.

[PK Kemsley]

I had the weight of that. And then I went to live in a Hotel in SoHo in New York. Cause I was trying to resurrect in

[Interviewer (Paul)]

New York, but if we could explore that a bit. So you went to the US in particular because you thought that your. I don't want to say your brand, but your reputation.

[PK Kemsley]

Brand, reputation, whatever. They just were.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yeah. So your reputation in the UK was shot. Was shot, was finished.

[PK Kemsley]

Why?

[Interviewer (Paul)]

It's because of the fact that your company crumbled.

[PK Kemsley]

Absolutely. I had to file bankruptcy. I was on the front page of the paper. Sugar's Apprentice Rottweiler Goes Bankrupt. No explanation as to why it happened. Just a load of bad headlines. And the banks and the connections that I had had gone. The doors had closed. It's like imagine like going back ironically now I've just realized the metaphor going back to the nightclubs that I couldn't get into when I was 18.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

I couldn't get in. They shut the door on me again. So all that world that I had access to had closed and it was very public and yeah, I felt the only place I could potentially rebuild was America. I did not think. I remember saying. I don't know if I said it to Loretta or who I said it to, but I just realized that the only chance I had was in America. It would take too long. Now I may not have been right because a few of the people that this happened to in the UK did stay here and did manage to bring it back. Cause attitudes change and new people come in. Right? Yeah.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

So then what did you do?

[PK Kemsley]

Well, go on the fucking housewives. Don't I line up that

[Interviewer (Paul)]

of all things you could have done, you go in the housewives. Can anyone tell me why roaming fees are always so expensive? I feel like every time I get back from traveling overseas I'm hit with a jaw dropping phone bill. It's actually why I'm excited to try our new partner Saily, an ESIM app that gives you a safe and secure data connection and anytime you travel and most importantly, without any expensive roaming charges. Now, quite a few of my team used Saili during our last trip to la and all accounts were that it was reliable and easy to set up. Saili is available in over 200 destinations and it comes with built in security features like web protection and ad blockers. The stuff you don't typically think about but actually, when you're traveling, it's really important to keep your data protected. But. But the part that really pulls me in is that I can change my online location to the uk so even if I'm somewhere else, any location blocked content is still accessible. To give it a try, download Saily from the app store or scan the QR code on the screen. And if you want 15% off your first purchase, make sure you use my code. WNTT at checkout. Details are in the episode Descript. This divorce that you're going through is highly public and publicized. It's a part of one of the biggest television franchises that there's ever been. Right. With the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills in particular. Can we talk?

[PK Kemsley]

Are you gonna give me some kind of custody stipulation?

[Interviewer (Paul)]

This is actually from the courts, something

[PK Kemsley]

I prepared for you earlier.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

This is from the courts is. I would like to talk about this if I can. So who's in this photo here?

[PK Kemsley]

Dorit Jagger and me. Okay.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Can we. As much as you want to talk about your relationship with Dorit, because what I find most interesting is that I think that most of us in the public hear about you through Dorit or hear about you through Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

[PK Kemsley]

It's the only way you hear about me.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yeah. But not from you.

[PK Kemsley]

No.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

So I'd love to hear the story from you.

[PK Kemsley]

It depends what story you're talking about. So, like, I've been very clear that I do not want to litigate my divorce publicly. I don't think it serves in the best interest of the kids. I don't. And everything I do, I want to be in the long term, best interests of our kids. Okay. Dorit's choices and how she uses her platform are her choices. I can't control that. I'm not there. I don't have the platform to respond. I don't want to litigate this through blogs and media. I think her story is her story, and that's her perspective. My story and my perspective is clearly different.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

I want to be accountable to my kids, and I want to be accountable to myself. I wish that she hadn't chosen that path. I understand why she may have had to. And being on that show is a lot of pressure, and they now pay a lot of money, and you've got to give the audience what they want. And there's always going to be. And particularly in this instance, there's going to be consequences to that. You know, I don't want to add to those consequences. I just Don't. And I don't want to fuel an already bad situation. It's sad. It's just super, super sad when I look at that picture, you know? You know, it brings back a load of memories. I mean, that's. We had Jagger before we got married.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

Which for me was kind of unconventional.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

And for the REIT as well. And it was kind of beautiful. I had my oldest son walk my youngest son down the aisle. And, you know, and you say, well, nothing lasts forever. And, you know, when. When you are dealing with the consequences of your actions. Right. Whether it be Dorit's actions or my actions, ultimately, who lit the fire? I lit the fire because I put her on the show.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

She didn't want to go on the show.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

She didn't. So even if we go back, even pre show, I mean, you two did begin very. It was a great relationship.

[PK Kemsley]

Unbelievable. Yeah. But I don't know now. You know, the truth is, I was at a certain period in my life. I was looking for acknowledgement. I was looking to be seen. I wanted company. A lot of what's been said subsequent just isn't true. I mean, it's just not true. Tariq never came in and saved me. So you know my history now. And, yes, a lot of people don't. So when I'm. That show shows only a. It's not my life. It's a TV show that shows snippets of my life with Dorit based on the premise of the show. Right. And they cut it, they edit, they show things. They allow storylines that even the producers know are not true to grow because that's the brilliance of the show. I mean, you're right. It's a pop culture phenomenon, that show.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

But in its very core, it's based on trauma. It's based on. What's the word when everybody argues? Well, there's a word I was gonna use.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

I mean, it feels toxic.

[PK Kemsley]

It's very toxic. It's got worse. But none of the people on that show are married anymore except for Kathy Hilton. And, yeah, I just think it's Kathy. I've probably forgotten someone.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

So why then do it? So, you know, so let's go back to.

[PK Kemsley]

I can answer.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yeah. You have a strong relationship. Okay. You are married.

[PK Kemsley]

Right.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Prior to the show. You have a beautiful child. Right. And then even you, professionally, I feel like you're now back. You're not where you were.

[PK Kemsley]

We're doing okay.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You're doing okay.

[PK Kemsley]

Right.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You're back. So you now have everything that you want why do you get involved in a franchise like that?

[PK Kemsley]

I think there were a lot of reasons. I had a very dear friend of mine who's another one of these super unbelievable kings of industry, this particular guy in the music business, but about as big as you can get. And when we went to la, he said to me, there are only three entry points in la. Pk Money, power, and celebrity. That's what he told me.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

And I'm like, okay? He said, well, money. You gotta have the money you used to have. And then even. And some. And then build schools and do some of the charitable initiatives that you used to do. Because I was very involved in charities and stuff. Power. He said, you've got a owner, studio, own a bank, being government. So your quickest entry point if you want to live in la, is celebrity. So when he says if you want to live in la, he was talking about the recreation of, potentially of what I had done previously and knowing that that was the world that I came from. So at that very time, one of the publicists that I was working with, I'm gonna give her a name shout because I love her. Her name's Dawn Miller.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

And she's a British girl that worked out of la. And she said, oh, pk, they're casting for the Housewives now. I'd never seen the show ever. Didn't know anything about it. All I knew that was that Lisa Vanderpump.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

Who was my friend, was on it. That's all I knew. Right. And I said to Dorit, I think she just had Phoenix. So this was. Phoenix is now 10. So this is 10 years ago. Why don't you just go and do a reading, a cast, have a casting? So I line up the casting. She came back, said it went horribly. And then three weeks ago, three weeks later, they came back and they said, we'd like to film you guys at home.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay?

[PK Kemsley]

So what I do know is I know how to close a deal.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah. And that could be a real estate or whatever.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

So I said, right, this is what we're doing. We're filling the house with flowers. We're gonna get the most eclectic group of guests around the table. We're gonna stick Boy George in one corner, Pele in another. Whatever. Do you know what I mean? We're gonna have our friends, and we're gonna bring an entre, and it's gonna be the richest guy in the room and the poorest guy in the room. This one can sing. Oh, this guy can't see, but he can paint. Do you know what I mean? Everybody.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

And the backdrop too, is. Cause what I understand, I mean, the house was.

[PK Kemsley]

The house was spectacular. The backdrop was great. I knew how to do it. So we did it. And as they say in England, Bob's your uncle. She got the gig. Now, whether or not, I mean, that proved that, I don't know because we haven't seen the end of the movie yet. But I do know that that show was fun until it wasn't. I was blind to what was going on, what was happening. I didn't act soon enough.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

And because my personality is a double down guy. Like, I'm not. I don't like walking away from a bet. I used to double down. Now we'll get this bet right. Get this bet right.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

Had no regard for the global awareness of this show. None. Literally none. And I think even now, you look back 10 years ago, social media and Twitter is not. Was not then what it is now. Right, Right. The toxicity of it, you know, the fact that a lot of it is not even human beings commenting, it's bots. And I know a lot about that now. And, you know, the rest, unfortunately, is history. And I will maintain that I have absolute accountability for going down that avenue. And I made some very significant mistakes in not acting when I saw it going wrong. So then, you know, and I think that when you're asking me these questions, it's gotta be about my perspective. Because Dorit's got her own perspective and I'm not. As I've said a million times before, she is the mother of my kids. Right. What she chooses to do and say about me is entirely up to her. Her versions, her perspectives, her truth are her truth doesn't mean they're the truth. They're her truth. I have my own right. I don't want that period of my life to define me. I don't want it to represent. Because the truth is a lot of it is down to the editing.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

It is.

[PK Kemsley]

And they create these scenarios that just didn't happen. Do you know what I mean? And the accusations and the rumor and the hearsay and they whip it up and they love it. But there are victims. Yeah. And I'm not calling myself a victim. I'm not a victim. I'm out of it. Yeah. It was uncomfortable. But I don't want our kids to be victims of those decisions.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

Do you understand? I don't. And I won't allow that. Right. And I won't allow. When I say I won't allow. I'M talking about not in a controlling sense. I mean, in an emotional context. I will do my very best to not add fuel to what I'm trying not to allow.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Right, because you're trying to contain a fire.

[PK Kemsley]

I'm trying to contain a fire. But I'm also saying, okay, well, that's not my fire anymore. You want to blow that fire up? You want to create that fire and live in that fire, that's your choice.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Right?

[PK Kemsley]

I choose not to live in that fire anymore.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

All right, so then from just your relationship with television, if I look at that. So this is season. What is it? Season 7 of Real Housewives 2016. What was initially, what was your feel around reality TV?

[PK Kemsley]

I.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

What was your take on it?

[PK Kemsley]

I first of all believed that I had the most beautiful, charismatic, sharp, ferociously ambitious wife and I wanted to show her off.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

And I also felt because I've always been able to control direct storyline businesses.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

You know, and I was.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You were in control previously, I thought

[PK Kemsley]

I was in control.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

And even at its most simplistic, moronic position, and this is like, oh, Piquet, you really are an idiot. I was like, it's kind of cool to be a celebrity. You get tables at the right time. And, you know, I joked about this. I joked about this with James Corden, right? When he asked me after one year, he said, why'd you do that show? I said, well, I didn't want to be in the five to 10 club. So he said to me, what do you mean? I said, well, when you come to LA and nobody knows who you are and you want to get a table, they offer you five or ten.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

I see it.

[PK Kemsley]

So I say. He goes, where are you now? I said, 8 o'. Clock. He goes, yeah, I'm 7:45. He goes, do you know what I mean? And that was kind of funny for me also. I'd been in the public world. I've been public for many, many years. So for me, yeah, I had my ups and downs with publicity and all that, but I wasn't really on social media.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Right.

[PK Kemsley]

I wasn't aware of what that show can do. And I'm not blaming that show on my divorce or my relationship or who I think Dorit is now versus who I think she was or who I am now. I think the biggest question I have that will never be answered is, is that is Dorit where she was always going to be and always going to end up, or was I responsible for putting her in that world and then that world created what Happened now. But there's no question that before we did that, like, if you talk about happy times, I mean, I remember living in Tribeca. We had a beautiful apartment, Dorit and me, and then we had the baby, and life was pretty fucking good, you know, I used to have this big tv. I used to watch my football on a Sunday. Dorit made dinner on a Friday. We went and saw movies, took the baby for a walk. Who drove the bus into the wall? Me. Much like I had done many times in my life. But it's kind of like the analogy is if you go and buy a candy store and then you say to your best friends and your lover and go and have what you want, it's our candy. Go eat.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Right.

[PK Kemsley]

You got to realize there are going to be consequences to that. And you always rely on people to be aware and have certain disciplines, and then you lose control of that. You lose control of that whatever it is. That thing that keeps moving forward and growing.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

In a not always beautiful way, in an ugly way. And then the show likes to go back and only talk about bad things. So then you start reporting on this and that, and I'm like, well, what about that? And then they build up this vision of who you are as a person, who you are as a couple, and then you start repeating it and you start believing it, and then suddenly you find yourself, what are you talking about? I'm nothing like that guy. What are they showing? I'm nothing like the person they're showing. And then I'm looking at. My wife is saying, who are you? Right. It's like. It's scary when you look at it.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes, yes.

[PK Kemsley]

And you lose control of that. Of that thing.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Of that thing. So my wife And I, in 2011, way back, we were offered a reality TV show to follow our life, right? Yep. And I was all for it. I was like, this is great. We should do it. My wife said, no, it'll destroy us because we could lose ourselves. And what you're just saying to me is that it's this depiction of you. It sounds like what you're saying is that you lost yourself. There was a storyline that's created that's not you. It's bits and pieces of who you are, what the relationship is. And then I'm in reality tv. There's a double down on that storyline. We know that if it bleeds, it leads. So we know that the negative always rises to the top. But then I think what's so hard for me with Real Housewives in particular, is that there's multiple people in the show. I'm sure there's a competition for the a.

[PK Kemsley]

Not. Of course. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

The A storyline.

[PK Kemsley]

And that's getting even worse. I mean, what I see now is fractured relationships, fractured friendships, broken marriages, sadness, money issues, health issues, and they're all doubled and trebled. And some of them are steeped in truth, and some of them have no truth. And the audience seemed to enjoy watching implosion, and then they picked their side, and they believe they know what they know because they listen to what somebody's saying. I mean, one of the weirdest things for me, and it took a lot of discipline, but I made a decision not to talk about it. Like, I'm not. You know, we've talked. We spoke in very generic terms.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

You know, I'm not gonna come out and start saying, that's not true. That's not true. That's not true. That's not. How about the whole lot ain't true? The whole lot ain't true. And the only real victims are gonna be the kids. So I'm gonna do all I can to protect them and to protect, you know, their lives and their journeys. And I'm not. And I do not believe it's in their interest for me to publicly litigate our divorce. Right. Will I inevitably have to use the court system? I don't know. Maybe that's avoidable, maybe it's not. Right. But the reality is, I know that I'm not free from blame, for sure, but I'm not controlling the last two years. And I wouldn't have encouraged it. And I would have strongly recommended in any capacity, my capacity as a manager, my capacity as a business guy, my capacity as a father and a husband. If I'd have had somebody who would listen, I would have said, that is the wrong thing to do. Yeah, right.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Is that why you left the show?

[PK Kemsley]

No, it's not why I left the show. I left Dorit, which is why I left the show. And we were in a separation. And then Dorit, in fairness to her, it was a big job, and she had to continue. And then Dorit decided what narrative she'd do. And at the point that she was doing that, listen, I'm not in that world anymore. I'm involved in business, thank God, again, and I'm doing some great stuff, and I'm out of that world now. But it's part of. It's been the last 10 years of my life. And, you know, I don't think anybody can sit there and say they're nothing to do with it. I mean, of course I'm part of the problem, for sure, yeah. Do I feel it's been fair and justified? No, I don't. There are periods that I know it's not fair. Yeah, but you have to still own the shit, don't you? I mean, who started it? You know?

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You do.

[PK Kemsley]

I didn't realize how much it would affect me emotionally and drain me and put me back into a place that I didn't want to be in. Do you understand? So then you say, well, how'd you get out of this? How do you get out of this place? Would you fight your way out? Do you joke your way out? How do you get out of it? And I didn't manage to.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

If you could take us back there, if you're willing to talk about the darkest moment so that we can understand how you felt and what was driving that emotion for you.

[PK Kemsley]

I think there were a lot of dark moments. I think this sense of. For me, this inability that I experienced. To be clear, I had no clarity. I had no clarity with my marriage, with that show, with business. I couldn't focus. That's when I decided to blame it on drink and say, right, I'll give up drink, and that will get me clear. And actually, there was enormous clarity when I did that. But I also learned how to. Learned that that wasn't the issue. The issue was me and delving into all of the mistakes that I'd always made. Seeing myself making the same mistakes, having that sense of deja vu, thinking about Loretta and the kids and the distance. It was too much distance between me and my older kids. I mean, thank God it's all. But I was too absent. I didn't want to be absent this time around. And then I was being accused of being absent. And I wasn't absent, right, But I think I was absent in terms of my ability to address how I was actually feeling. I actually made myself second. I didn't. I still don't. But I didn't love myself. I didn't. I didn't respect myself. I was just doing it for this thing. I'd lost even any thought as to why I was doing it.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

And you just said something. So today, as you said. Do you love yourself?

[PK Kemsley]

Not yet.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Are you proud of yourself?

[PK Kemsley]

Nope.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Do you respect what you've created?

[PK Kemsley]

Nope.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You don't?

[PK Kemsley]

Not yet. I'm aware of what I created. People like you who show me respect and, you know, in a really beautiful way and say, this is amazing what you did. But no, I'm not there yet.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You're not there, pk?

[PK Kemsley]

No.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You know, it's interesting. When you came in, before you came in, I was talking to different people, getting ready to interview pk. And I'm just bragging about you.

[PK Kemsley]

Thanks.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

That is a bit shocking to me that you don't love yourself.

[PK Kemsley]

Not yet. How can I at the moment, in terms of. I'm always. I'm always in a situation. It's like at the moment, I'm in this divorce situation, you know, my kids, I'm worried about them. I'm worried about them being affected. I don't see this noise stopping. The only way I can stop it is to remove myself from it. I even was asked last night, why am I doing this interview? I said, I don't really know. I'm in London. I guess I've got a story to tell. You asked me at the beginning, maybe my lessons, maybe my journey can help someone else, Right? Yes.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

But I haven't finished my journey. And I definitely don't sit there in the mirror and go, love you, pk. You know that you read all. You have to start loving yourself. Put yourself first. I'm not there yet. I'm not. Will I get there? I hope so. I really hope so. And it's. Yeah, you people are inspired by some of the things I've done. I think that I have a few ways to get better that I've not managed to do yet. Right. I know that I'm very affected emotionally and I'm very sensitive to, for example, social media commentary. People are so vile. And as it happens on my own feed, people are beautiful. Very rarely, but I've still had to block 1900 people in the last 12 months. You know, they write terrible things and then you say, well, why are you even reading it? So the secret is definitely, definitely not to read it. But I. Because of the addictive nature of my personality, it's difficult to do. Am I getting better at it? 100%. Don't even watch the show anymore. Don't watch it. But I can't avoid the clips and the trailers and the.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

That's right.

[PK Kemsley]

And the papers, what they say. And every. Everybody around you, the people you love are affected.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

You know, people don't realize. My mum, you know, my dad's 88. He has to listen to his daughter in law speaking, how she's speaking. And it affects him.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

So now he's trying not to see it.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yeah.

[PK Kemsley]

The good news is his eyes are going. So now he can't see it.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

So it's hard. But the fact, I think that's something that a lot of people don't realize. It's incredibly nasty and unkind to troll, but the ripple effect that it creates in that person's life, their parents, their

[PK Kemsley]

children, yeah, it's unfair, and we've protected our kids. But I've always said to Dorit, don't do this. The kids are gonna read it at some point. Don't do it. But I'm not in control of her decisions, and she's not in control of my decisions.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Are there from what you? Only if you'd like to say this, are there any storylines from the show that are particularly challenging for you that you want to address?

[PK Kemsley]

Not really. I mean, I don't think that I need to address storylines on the real housewives of Beverly Hills. I think I'm better off to focus on my own healing, my own growth. I mean, look, Mauricio is one of my great friends now, so I took a beautiful friendship out of that. Out of that show.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

Beautiful friendship, transparent, honest. We share. We don't have any secrets. Such a great guy, inspirationally in business, but the world's got an opinion of him based on the show. So that was a gift from the show. I got a great friendship, funny enough, out of one of the producers, Alex Baskin, the big one.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

I consider him a true friend of mine. Great guy. So there have been some wins, you know, in terms of friendships, but everything else, no, it's not great. Okay.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Would you ever do reality TV again?

[PK Kemsley]

It depends in what context. So it depends what you call reality tv. If I thought it was a positive, uplifting, beautiful thing to do that was gonna help other people and be fun and funny and humorous, and we got into a serious mode in this thing. But I like to joke around. I like to mess around. Yeah, I do that. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

Would I ever go anywhere near something that is as toxic as that again? Nah, no chance. Okay. Hey there.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

We have conversations just like this one every week, so if you haven't already hit follow and the bell icon. And I'll see you for the next one. So now the cosmos. New York Cosmos. That's lightning in a bottle.

[PK Kemsley]

Yep.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

How is it that you choose that path after this real estate career?

[PK Kemsley]

Well, it wasn't as entirely removed as you think it might be because I was the vice chairman at Tottenham, so I had a passion for football. True. And I had connections in football, and I had an interest in. I had a big business in America. So I Was aware of what was going on in the MLS very early. And I knew about the New York Cosmos. I just knew about it. Right. But I didn't know a lot. So it was. A friend of mine said, come watch this documentary. So we watched the documentary that was called Lightning in a Bottle.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Oh, my goodness.

[PK Kemsley]

You have to watch it.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

And I was just so fascinated by it. So I set about finding out what had happened to the New York Cosmos. And I found out that the intellectual property, the brand, all the trophies in the history, was owned by a restaurateur in New Jersey called Pepe Pinto. And so I persuaded him to sell it to me, and I bought it with the very little money I had left. So I funded that entirely myself.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Wow, look at that.

[PK Kemsley]

And I set about, right, how are we gonna get this going again? So I knew that I couldn't do anything with the Cosmos until I got hold of Pele because it's like, bad example, but a good example. It's like buying Wham without George Michael. You just can't do it. Or Culture Club without Boy George. Right. The Cosmos without Pele, legacy wise and history wise, is worth nothing.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Right. But you bought the club prior to meeting Pele. Meeting Pele.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay. And you bought it for. Was it 2 million?

[PK Kemsley]

1.2 million.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

1.2 million.

[PK Kemsley]

Okay, 1.2 million.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Still a lot of money.

[PK Kemsley]

Well, Paul, imagine. I'll say. We'll give you a New York analogy because you're from New York.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay?

[PK Kemsley]

Imagine the Yankees stop playing today. Don't play another game.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

And in 30 years time, you can buy the badge, the name, the IP and the truck and the history.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yeah.

[PK Kemsley]

For 1.2 million, I'm doing it. No, you're doing it. You're doing it in five minutes. You're doing it in five minutes.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

It was not expensive, so I did it. And then the whole Pele journey was amazing. I mean, and what happened is.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yeah, I mean, all right, so you buy that. You then fly to Brazil.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah. Okay.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You line up this meeting with Pele.

[PK Kemsley]

I thought I'd lined up a meeting with Pele and we were due to have dinner with him. I was very excited, and we turned up, sat at the restaurant all night. Never showed.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Look at this.

[PK Kemsley]

So, never showed. Then I said to my mate Terry, I said, I'm not. He goes, you know, I said to him, you know, I'm not leaving until we've met him. And he's like. And he pulled out the box set of Sopranos. He says, I knew you were going to say that. He goes, here's some company. Yeah, I never watched the Sopranos. Here's some company. You start watching that fella. I'll go find him. Seven days later, I finished the box set of Sopranos, and he found him.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Wow.

[PK Kemsley]

And we went and met him in a recording studio, and he was behind the glass the first time I saw him. And it was just so iconic and so incredible. And I was like, oh, my God. Right? So we went out for dinner with him after, and I said to him, listen, I'm gonna bring back the Cosmos. And he told me how he loved it, and it was a happy period of his time, but it was all about money. I then raised some money for the Cosmos, and I had enough money to offer Pele a role, so I offered him lifetime president. And his role was to come and help me promote the relaunch of the Cosmos with a view to getting the MLS to give us the New York franchise and for us to call it the Cosmos. That was the big picture plan. I see it. So I'm going to take the New York Cosmos back to the American League. And the story is beautiful. They were the ones who bought soccer to America. Pele was the one who bought soccer to America. Let's put Pele back as the King.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yeah. It's a great story.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah, it worked, right? The story worked. In fact, the whole deal worked. But irrespective of what's been written about it, it was a fantastic deal and a fantastic experience.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Was it then the experience that you had managing Pele as talent that then led you to managing Boy George?

[PK Kemsley]

Not entirely, although. Absolutely they're related. So what really happened is I was still managing Pele.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

And a friend of George's rang me and said, boy George is looking for a new manager. Are you interested? And I said, what, like Boy George? Boy George? Yeah. Yeah. So I said, no, I just want to clarify this. You mean Boy George? Because I thought I didn't know what Boy George was doing. And, you know, obviously, flashback memories of me ringing the doorbell of his house and running away.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

So he said, yeah. So this guy said, all right, he's gonna call you. So. And he did. And the phone rang, and I was in Beverly Hills at the time, and I'm talking to him, and I go, hello, Boy George. Do you know what I mean? It's like, I don't know. Hello, Mr. Boy George. What are you calling him? What am I calling him? Boy George. I think I just said, hello, Boy George. And he said, well, he goes, I'm looking for a manager. And he goes, do you manage Pele? This is what he said. Do you manage Pele? I said, I do. He said, would you like to manage me? So I said, why do you want to be a soccer player? And he went hard. Bloody. Ha ha. And we. We didn't have a great call.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

We did not have a great call. And George will tell you this. He. He said to me when I put the phone down, and I remember Dorit was in the house when I was talking, and I was going. So when I finished, I thought that went really badly. And I sent him a message, said, hey, it was great to speak to you. I'm a lousy first date. I'm a much better second date, so I'd love to actually meet you. So he apparently liked that text, right?

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

Cause he did think I was a bit of an asshole in the first. Cool. Yeah, he did. Okay. And then we arranged to meet three weeks later in New York. He was doing the Seth Meyers show, and we went out for dinner, and that's where it started. And then the next day, he came to my office in New York, which was in. On Broadway at Times Square, and it was the Pele office, and it was pretty beautiful. And we had amazing. And he came in, he goes, well, this is what I want. He goes, I want someone to manage the brand, you know? So he says, so what I want you to do is I want you to do the image, the brand, but I want to do the music, and I want to do the DJing, and I don't want to do coach club, and I don't want to. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This one makes that line. I said, I can't manage the tail of the donkey. I have to manage the whole donkey. And he goes, are you fucking calling me a donkey? I said, no, George, it's a metaphor. I'm saying if I'm building something here and you're doing something ridiculous there, you're going to affect the value of what I'm doing. So you either want me to manage the whole of you, or I'm not the guy for you. And he went with it.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Wow.

[PK Kemsley]

And We've been together 2012 years.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Look at that.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah, we're nowhere near done either. Nowhere near done. I've just come off the back of a Coach Club tour, and, yeah, we're having fun.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

I think the fact that you've been together, you said 12 years. 12 so far. 12 or 13 years is a great testament because many managers and their clients, they don't stay together that long.

[PK Kemsley]

That's right. But, you know, the truth is, our relationship's very unique. I mean, the business management who handled all the money, I make the deals, but they said it. And they'd look after Adele, and they look after Duran Duran and all these fabulous acts. And they said. The senior partner of this firm of accountants says we're the most unique duo he's ever seen. Yes. He says it's totally crazy, but just works.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

It does.

[PK Kemsley]

I mean, me and George, when we fall out, we fall out. I resigned four weeks ago, and he didn't even read my resignation.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Really?

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah. And then the following morning, he went, how are you? I'm fine. You? And we were just over it.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Well, then on that note, pk I do have a surprise for you.

[PK Kemsley]

Oh, really?

[Interviewer (Paul)]

I would love. I would love for you to read this.

[PK Kemsley]

Who's that? That's from George, isn't it?

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You know his handwriting?

[PK Kemsley]

I do. All right. Oh, cool. What's he written? I gotta read this.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Could you read it out loud? Would you mind?

[PK Kemsley]

No, I don't mind at all.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yeah.

[PK Kemsley]

PK Is a classic Leo who will fight for himself as hard as he fights for you. I love that he gets over stuff quickly. You get the roar and then laughter. He is part lion and part big kid. We have many things in common, and yet we are very different, which can cause friction. The good news is I have changed so much in the way I communicate with P.K. we both overreact. I just mentioned that. But always find peace and humor. I've had to learn to handle a lion. It's easy. You just give them a cuddle. He is my friend first and manager second. Super sweet.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

I love that.

[PK Kemsley]

And he's right, because I'm the easiest guy to get along with. Just be nice and give me a cuddle. Let me be seen. That's all I really ever wanted. Do you know what I mean? I think. I think I'm realizing that we may have even touched on that earlier on in this interview.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes, we have.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah. That's very sweet. I'll get him to sign it.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

I will hold onto that for you, but I'll make sure that I give that back to you.

[PK Kemsley]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

At the end. I love that he touched upon so many of the literal words that you've used, like lion.

[PK Kemsley]

Well, he's very into Zodiac. Very into it.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

Very knowledgeable, and it is for somebody. I was never that into it. I've started to invest much more in understanding certain talents that I've got. Right. So I've got a little bit of clairvoyance in me and a little bit of mediumship in me.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

And I'm a great believer in tapping into outside help now. You know, there's come a time where I have to stop talking about what happened. And funnily enough, Boy George has been quite therapeutic on that because he's like, enough with the nostalgia. I know. Enough with that, Enough with that. Let's get on with now.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

And there is enough. The one thing that I gained through my career is I've got really, truly, I've got a great deal of wisdom now. Most things I've seen, most corporate situations, financial situations, business situations, celebrity situation, I've seen it all. Yes, right. And you keep that wisdom. And now when you. You're able to impart that wisdom with other people, suddenly you. You have the answers. And someone said, well, how'd you know that? And I thought, well, I guess it's wisdom through experience.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes, it is. It is.

[PK Kemsley]

You know what I mean? And I can. And I want the next chapter in my life to be about that, to be about imparting wisdom, to share experiences, say, well, don't do that. Well, why not? Because if you do that, this is going to happen.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

Well, how do you know? Because I know. Do you know what I mean? And it's kind of. And I think maybe, I'm pleased to say. I'd like to say maybe one of the reasons I did do this chat was to start that journey of saying, actually, I've got some wisdom to offer. And, you know, maybe this platform is something that will say then this book. So, well, why don't you write a book about it? Or why don't you do that?

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

I don't know. Yes, why don't you? Actually, the show's called We Need a Talk. Yes, maybe I do need a talk.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You do. To me, your story is one of resilience. You've been knocked down and you get back up and you get back on the journey, and then you're knocked down again. You get back up and you get back on the journey, and then you're knocked down again and you continually do this. So you are, to me, pk, you are a story of resilience.

[PK Kemsley]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

You've done that here in the uk, you've done that in the United States. And what I love is that you, admittedly, are just getting back up today.

[PK Kemsley]

I'm always getting back Up. And you know what? I always will because I've got five kids that I have to get back up for. And I don't want to give them. I don't want them to think that they can't get back up. Do you understand?

[Interviewer (Paul)]

So you get back up for them,

[PK Kemsley]

I get back up for them. I get back up for my friends and my family. And I hope one day that I'm getting back up for myself. But at the moment, I don't know if I'm doing that yet.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Okay.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah, I'll have to work that bit out.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Well, my hope is that you can get back up for yourself.

[PK Kemsley]

Thanks, man. Truly. Yeah, truly.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

And I think that you can find inspiration through other people, but ultimately the source of that has to come from you. That is the source. That's the internal validation. It has to come from you.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah. Do you know what, Paul? I'm pleased to say I know that. I understand it. Putting it into action is not always easy.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

All right, so then, last question. Pk, everyone gets this is you've had some incredible conversations throughout your life with incredible people. Which one stands out the most? So who was the conversation with and what did you learn?

[PK Kemsley]

Wow. That's the sort of question you really have to think about. But yes, I think the conversation, the most profound conversation I've ever had was with my late brother in law, who was Loretta, my first wife's brother, who passed through nodular melanoma at the age of 37 in 2005. And it was diagnosed a year to the date that he passed. So it was diagnosed a year before. And we went to this brilliant surgeon who's still around now. I mean, his name's Kieran Healy. And he was really honest. I happened to be in the room and he said, this is incurable. He said, and I think to give everybody else hope, I think medicine's come on since then, right? But at that point it was incurable. And he said to Raz, who was the name of it was called Darren, but we called him Raz, he said, look, we can try. And you're going to be so sick for 12 months. He goes, and we're not gonna get it done. He said, or he said, we can ignore it. He says, and you'll be sick for three weeks, he says, and then you're gonna pass. He says, but you can have 11 months and a week. But the most profound conversation was the conversation with Raz. What do you want to do?

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yes.

[PK Kemsley]

And I said, look, I was starting to do really well in there. I've got enough money for us to go and have some fun. So he said, bring in my six, seven mates and let's just go and have some fun. The following day, I bought my Ferrari. I said, all right, that's day one. And we just flew everywhere and we did great things. So I guess the most profound conversation I ever had was talking to someone who had to choose between fighting for life or accepting the circumstances and living. That's probably it.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

That's profound.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah, man.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

That one's going to stay with me.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Rest in peace, Raz.

[PK Kemsley]

Rest in peace, Braz.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yeah.

[PK Kemsley]

Or as they say now, rest in power.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Rest in power.

[PK Kemsley]

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that pleasure.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Yeah, that one's going to stay with me. I've enjoyed talking with you.

[PK Kemsley]

You too,

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Mr. PK I don't believe he has ever sat down and unpacked his story in the way that we did today. And I believe that even now, as he walks to his car, as he goes home, he'll begin to discover even more patterns about his life. You could seemingly have it all and also have nothing. And I think his story depicts that he was always chasing the next, the next, the next. And he accumulated a substantial amount of wealth, and as he said, he was his most unhappy at the height of his material wealth. It makes me think about the why, ultimately the why, and how important it is to be able to answer the why. And I liked his. His thought around. Does reality TV unveil, or should I say reveal someone's true character, or does it shape your character into something else? It makes you see things differently. Even myself, I feel like I've become desensitized now to certain things that could be considered highly traumatic or highly toxic. Now I feel like, oh, that's just part of everyday, you know, everyday life. So it does. Without a doubt. What we're doing here is this is not therapy. This is literally holding space for our guests. And you could see how there's this relief of I feel lighter as a result. This is hopefully an example of what more of us can do in our everyday life with our loved ones. We all need to talk.

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

These podcasts get me in trouble all the time.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Selling Sunset. How do you even navigate that opportunity?

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

I was like, well, it. And then I got there and I was like, what is wrong with you people? I mean business. I'm about my business. I'm here to this up.

[PK Kemsley]

Want to be a bitch?

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

I'll be a. Let's do it. Oh, wrong finger.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

So at 16, you were on your own. You did not have a childhood.

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

Well, actually it was way more traumatic.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

So at the club, what were you doing?

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

Bottle service. I had this client. He ended up giving me the biggest tip they've ever had.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

How much was the tip?

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

Dollars.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

He was one of the biggest names

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

in football when we got together. The partying and all of the stuff and like the self medicating I thought was just like a kid that got money and just got the new life.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

I've always heard that he went on this $5 million bender.

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

He did. His plan was to spend all of his money.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

What was it about? Nick.

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

He taught me that I don't need to be toxic. I don't need to yell at you. It's just so healthy and normal and people think that it's not.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

I think they're thinking about the non monogamy.

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

Nick's always been a playboy. Everybody knows that.

[Interviewer (Paul)]

Truthfully, is there any level of jealousy?

[PK Kemsley]

Spring just slid into your DMs.

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

Grab that boho, look for that rooftop dinner. Those sandals that can keep up with you. And hang some string lights to give

[Commercial Narrator]

your patio a glow up.

[Unidentified Female Speaker]

Spring's calling, Ross.

[Commercial Narrator]

Work your magic.