The Man Behind Attachment Styles Explains Secure Love

Summary

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We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson

Episode: The Man Behind Attachment Styles Explains Secure Love (April 23, 2026)

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Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. Amir Levine—psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and co-author of the seminal book Attached—discussing his latest work, Secure, and delving deep into the concept of secure love, attachment styles, and what genuinely creates connection in relationships. Paul C. Brunson, the host, brings forward challenging questions, unpacks myths about attachment, and explores Dr. Levine’s personal journey and practical tools for building healthier bonds.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining Boundaries in Relationships

[01:28 – 04:57]

• Controversial Take — “Relationships Don’t Need Boundaries”:
  Dr. Amir Levine questions the utility of hard boundaries, suggesting they're fundamentally different from healthy negotiation and responsiveness.
  • “From an attachment perspective... it's a couple’s dance... you correct your steps and learn how to do it better. But it’s different than saying, ‘No, I’m drawing a line in the sand here.’ It creates a disconnect in the relationship.” — Dr. Amir Levine [02:04]
• Emphasizes the importance of “asks” instead of “ultimatums.”
  • “Why is that a boundary? I don't see that as a boundary. That's like an ask. It's a beautiful ask.” — Dr. Amir Levine [03:43]
• Secure relationships focus on negotiation and attunement to each other’s needs—suggesting activities or rituals (like “date night”) should be open for adaptation based on mutual comfort.

2. Security Is Not Static

[04:57 – 06:54]

• Attachment styles can shift depending on relationships and environments.
  • “Are you saying that if you are secure as an adult, but you are in a close relationship with someone who’s anxious… you can actually shift from being secure?” — Host [04:57]
  • “Oh, 100%.” — Dr. Amir Levine [05:20]
• Secure partners can help others become more secure with small acts of empathy and re-framing.
  • Story about a stressful street crossing: “My partner said, maybe she sped up so we can cross faster... He gave me a different way of looking at it.” — Dr. Amir Levine [05:41]
• Dr. Levine emphasizes energy spent adapting positively rather than getting stuck in negativity.

3. Formative Childhood Influences and Intellectual Curiosity

[06:54 – 09:43]

• Dr. Levine shares his unconventional upbringing: no grades, emphasis on creativity and open inquiry fostered by his mother.
  • “She didn’t believe in grades… I could always stay at home and not go to school, especially on days we had exams. I read a lot... even things I maybe shouldn’t have, like the Kama Sutra at seven!” — Dr. Amir Levine [07:26 and 08:56]
• The environment was rich in intellectual and emotional openness, laying the foundation for his scientific approach and empathy.
• He reflects on the pragmatic benefits: “I ended up getting good grades because I ended up going to medical school. And somehow it all worked.” [09:34]

4. Attachment Styles and Personal Reflection

[11:26 – 14:48]

• Dr. Levine maps his own “attachment topography,” sharing:
  • He is secure with his partner and family, more avoidant with friends, and has experienced anxiety in earlier relationships.
  • “It's hard for me to create something all alone… I don't think any of us do. With my partner, definitely secure. With my friends, a little more avoidant… In earlier relationships, I was anxious.” — Dr. Amir Levine [12:25-14:17]
• His journey writing Secure started as an educational resource to help young people and others develop security in relationships:
  • “No one teaches that, so kids will have a better framework… Even at 87, people can benefit from learning secure relationships.” — Dr. Amir Levine [14:17]

5. Parenting and Building Security in Children

[14:49 – 17:08]

• Debunks the myth that childhood attachment permanently dictates adult attachment.
  • “There’s a lot more that contributes to your attachment style in adulthood than what happened to you as a child... Take the sting of blame off parents.” — Dr. Amir Levine [15:06]
• Parents should focus on teaching children about consistency, availability, and responsiveness (Dr. Levine’s “CARP” principles).
  • Example: A misguided response from a mother teaches insecurity rather than resilience.
  • “If you don’t have the lingo, sometimes parents do the opposite.” — Dr. Amir Levine [16:43]

6. Most Memorable Conversation and the Power of Security

[17:14 – 18:24]

• Dr. Levine shares an emotional story about walks and talks with his mother.
  • “We’d walk and then realize, oh, the conversation isn’t over yet, so we'd walk back... That’s what I was thinking about.” — Dr. Amir Levine [17:29]
• This memory illustrates how secure attachment is rooted in feeling profoundly seen and understood.

7. Host’s Reflections and Takeaways

[19:09 – 26:12]

• Paul C. Brunson praises Dr. Levine’s translation of attachment theory for adults, highlighting Secure for its practical guidance beyond romantic relationships.
  • “He destroyed the myth of your attachment style as a child translating to your attachment style as an adult. That's completely mislabeled. That is a myth.” — Host [approx. 20:50]
• Explores his own attachment pattern, noting the relief that comes from understanding and accepting one’s own style.
• Appreciates the tools for creating “CARP” interactions (consistent, available, reliable, predictable) in all types of relationships.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On boundaries and negotiation:

  • “From an attachment perspective… relationships are a dance… it's different than drawing a line in the sand.” — Dr. Amir Levine [02:04]

• On changing attachment styles:

  • “You can shift to being not secure… Secures are amazing at helping people shift their [attachment].” — Dr. Amir Levine [05:20]

• On childhood influence:

  • "There was such an openness to explore… my mom didn't believe in grades… the grades they were looking for were 'original' and 'thought-provoking.'" — Dr. Amir Levine [08:56]

• On writing his book:

  • “No one teaches security… so I started it off as something to prepare kids for college and high school, to give them a better framework.” — Dr. Amir Levine [14:17]

• On raising secure children:

  • “There's more that contributes to your attachment style as an adult than just what happened as a child… so take the blame off parents.” — Dr. Amir Levine [15:06]

• On his most memorable conversation:

  • “We’d walk and then we’d realize, the conversation’s not over… So we’d walk back, and then we’d walk again.” — Dr. Amir Levine [17:29]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:28] Redefining boundaries—relationships as a seamless dance
• [03:43] The difference between an “ask” and a “boundary”
• [04:57] Impact of partners’ styles; shifting in and out of security
• [06:54] Dr. Levine’s unconventional, creative upbringing
• [11:26] Dr. Levine’s personal attachment topography
• [14:49] Parental impact and debunking the attachment myth
• [17:29] The most memorable conversation: walks with his mother
• [19:09] Host’s personal reflections and takeaways

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Final Takeaways

Dr. Amir Levine’s appearance on the podcast challenges conventional views of relationships, specifically around boundaries, and offers a nuanced, compassionate framework for cultivating secure love. Listeners gain:

• Practical distinctions between boundaries, asks, and negotiation in relationships
• Reassurance that attachment styles are dynamic and not dictated by early childhood alone
• Tools (“CARP”) for fostering security—especially relevant for parents and educators
• Deep, personal reflections on the power of curiosity, open dialogue, and meaningful human connection

As Dr. Levine sums it up: “I hope with this one, I even gave a clear roadmap to how to do it, just beyond the romantic relationships. That was really important to me.” [18:58]

Transcript

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[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Dr. Amir Levine, your book Secure, you have said something that is going to drive relationship experts mad.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I can think about a couple of

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

things that relationships don't need.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Oh, that one. Yes, I love that one. That's big. From an attachment perspective, I find that.

[Podcast Co-host/Promoter]

Hey there. Before we begin the episode, I just want to say thank you for choosing

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

we need to talk.

[Podcast Co-host/Promoter]

Doing this podcast is one of the

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

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[Podcast Co-host/Promoter]

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[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So now you said a secure love is an open love.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Right.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And I think this does lead to, I think, one of the hottest takes in the book. You have said something that is going to drive relationship experts mad in this book.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Right.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And you know what this is?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

What is it?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

This is.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I can think about a couple of things.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Well, actually. Well, let me. I'll go to.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Okay, okay.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

That relationships don't need boundaries.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Oh, that one. Yes, I love that one.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

That's big.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Okay. Okay. Yeah. No, And I always. And I even write in the book that I'm sort of like that sometimes. I like to rattle people. So I will say it because that's how we learn and it makes us think. And as a scientist, I've always learned to challenge my thinking. And by all means, I'm always. I'm open to change my mind and to give me sort of information that will. So I'm really open. But the way that I see things now is that as an attachment person, coming from an attachment perspective, I find that it's like a couple's dance, you know, the walls or the tango, where you take a step forward, they take a step back. There's like this. It sort of moves seamlessly and everyone. Yeah, you may step on one another and then you correct. And you sort of correct your. Your steps and you learn how to do it better. But it's different than saying, no, I'm drawing a line in the sand here and you can cross it. It creates a disconnect in the relationship. I mean, you could say, hey, this is really important for me. Like, how can you make it work? But it's not. Like, usually bound is like, okay, this is what I need. And if you can meet that need, then too bad. But that leaves the other. The other person on the outside.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Right. But was it. Because the way that you phrased it to me sounded like an ultimatum. If you can't meet this need, I'm done. Or there's this consequence versus this is my standard. This is what I require. So, for example, let's say we're in a marriage. We need to have date night every week in order for me to feel connected to you.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Why is that a boundary? I don't see that as a boundary. That's like an ask.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's an ask.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Okay. It's a beautiful ask.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I mean, I guess it depends from a secure point of view, it's a beautiful ask. Your avoidance is like, what. What are you asking me?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

That's true. And anxious. That could be a boundary. Yeah.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

But let me give you an example. So here's a good example of what Elahi's like, oh, we need to have a date night. But someone avoiding, like, I don't know. But then he. If you're, like, from a secure environment, you know, she doesn't really like to sit across from me, and it feels too intense. Maybe we can go maybe. And that's actually been shown that maybe we can go on a hike together. Who says a date has to be in a restaurant, like, in a noisy environment? Maybe that's how they can feel closer. And it's like, oh, yeah, I'd love to go on a walk, like, every. Like, like, even more often.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So that's the difference. It's like you said, like, no, I need to have this. Where the solution comes from. Trying to work with both of your biology to find what actually is the most effective rather than, this is what I need. And I need to sort of come to this restaurant and sit across from me and talk to me.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay. I like it. I like it. So just to be clear, are you saying that if you are secure as an adult, but you are in a close relationship with someone who's anxious, someone who's not secure, and your environment perhaps is not secure, that you can actually shift from being secure to, oh, 100% okay.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yes, of course. And you can also shift to being not secure. But secures are amazing. It's like in helping people shift their. Even in little things, even if you're they even will help you become more secure. I'll give you an example. It was just something that happened a few weeks ago. We were going across the street and then the woman who was driving, instead of stopping, she sped up. And I was like turning like, you see what she did? She's like, I mean, like, she's just like, she's so impolite. She didn't stop. And my partner said, well, actually I was thinking about it like, she sped up so we can cross the street faster. So all of a sudden he gave me like a different sort of way of looking at it.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And, you know, since then. And he actually said something, oh, wow, you really shifted your way. I said, I decided, okay, you know what? I'm going to adopt this. And then whenever, like I'm. I don't drive much, but whenever I see people do something like butting in or like in traffic, I say, well, they made a mistake or they just like, yeah, they didn't really see who was coming. And sort of like, actually I found that I give them more the benefit of the doubt and it's helped. And he said, oh, wow, it's been a real shift. So I really try. I like whatever I write there. I also use myself to help myself because it's really more about. Again, it's about the exploratory drive. Why would I spend my energy getting upset about someone else if I can see it in a little bit different way? And it frees up more energy for me to. To write, to do all the things that I want to do.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And sort of create those better cine's.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes, yes. Now, talking about yourself, can we talk about yourself?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yes, of course.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And your upbringing and how you were able to, I think, kind of become this phenomenal person that sits in front of me today. I find the research that I've done on you as a little boy and. And that environment to be just fascinating. So could you describe how you grew up and how you believe that has impacted who you are today?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So I had a very. It's like I feel again, it was like, I feel very fortunate that I had a very unusual upbringing in the sense that my mom had very progressive ideas about education. And so I basically. She grew up in that same kind of like educational. The school that she went to, they never actually believed in grades and they really put more emphasis on creativity and sort of thinking original thoughts. They didn't give them. They wouldn't even give them. And they said they didn't want to get an A. Plus or they always wanted to get. This is original, this is really thought provoking. That was the grades that they were really looking for. And so my mom, she didn't believe in grades. And also when I didn't have to go to school, I could always stay at home and not go to school if I didn't want to. Especially on days that we had exams. I didn't have to go because you didn't believe in grades. So I did stay home a lot and I read a lot. We had a big library and I read all sorts of stuff from a very, very young age. Things that are probably, maybe it was completely uncensored, things that maybe I shouldn't have read. I didn't even understand what I was reading. Like sort of a book about the Kama Sutra. I was like, what is this? A seven year old? I love it.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You're like, what is this? Yes.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

But there was such an openness to explore. And she was also. And I guess that's where my love for science and also for popular science came from. She was like an editor for something similar to Scientific American and we had a lot of really living with her. It was like living in a book club slash always. There was always. There was really a lot of pursuit about intellectual ideas. That's the environment I grew up in. And I'm very, very thankful to that. I feel very fortunate.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Oh my gosh. Didn't have to go to school on exam days.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yes.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I mean, who wants to go to school on exam days?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And I took advantage of it and I ended up getting good grades because I ended up going to medical school. And somehow it all worked. Maybe it wouldn't have worked for other people. It did really work in my case.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host/Promoter]

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[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And so how do you think that that informs who you are today?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I think I still and I have it's both my sister and I grew up in that and we still are that way. And a lot of these books are really a result of conversation. This particular secure is a result of conversations that we have together. We walk together and talk about ideas. That's what we did. When I came home from school. We would sit around. She really spent a lot of time with us and she was really interested in what we had to say and how to think about things and to sort of to see the original as like a different way of to challenge things, not to be afraid to sort of try to see things differently. So it's really, it's just a direct continuation. I'm just continuing along the same path of what I find really fascinating and interesting.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes. Yes. Now this is one that I couldn't wait to ask you, but I wanted to wait until the end.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Okay.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

What is your attachment style?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I think when I look at my attachment topography, I think somebody similar to yours actually in some ways I'm like with my partner and my sister. My sister is like, you won't even see the dot. It's all the way down at the very corner.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I believe that.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yes. She's like, wow, she's an amazing presence in my life and she really a lot of it. I have to thank her for this book. I don't think I'm an attachment person. It's hard for me to create something. I don't think none of us create something all alone really. We are not. We just don't Very, very like very rare. But with my partner, definitely secure. With my friends, I think I'm a little bit more avoidant like you. But I try to really respond Right away, I've sort of become better at that. Like, to the ones who need it, not everybody needs it. So just like to be. To choose the right. And then I definitely, in some of my relationships earlier on, I was more like, anxious. And that's why I wrote this. It started off as writing something like a class for college and high school students because a while ago I saw it every once in a while they revive it on Broadway. There is like, it's called Spring Awakening. And it's that show where they all go through terrible heartaches and through or really tragic things that happened with many of them. And I witnessed it as a child psychiatrist when that whole romantic relationship comes online. But not only also with friendships in adolescence, there's so much pain. And then I discovered also in middle school with friends, but in adolescence, around romantic relationships, there's so much pain that comes on. And people don't have a roadmap to learn about security. No one teaches that. So I started it off as like thinking about something to prepare for college and high school. So kids will learn. So they'll have a better framework.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

To how to sort of work on all those relationships. Like, I have this woman who, when she was 87, she actually, like, it's when she started a relationship and she still was like, oh, my God, he hasn't called me. When is he going to text me? What's going to happen? It's like back like, you're 16 again, so we can all benefit from it. And that's why I decided to write secure. So everybody, no matter what age you are, you can sort of still create a more secure life for yourself.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes. And the last topic I have, but I think it speaks to this. Exactly. What you're saying is how secure speaks to everyone is as a parent.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Oh, yes, that's a big one.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. To raise, what do you think are. You know, what's the most effective strategy to raise a secure child?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

First of all, the one first thing that I think people need to think about, if you understand that who you are as a child doesn't really like, there's a lot more that contributes to your attachment style in adulthood than what happened to you as a child. So I think that takes a lot of the blame off the parents. And again, I told you, don't blame the parents for avoidance. So as a parent yourself, not to think, oh, my God, I did this. I'm going to forever, like, damage my child. It doesn't work that way. It really doesn't work that way. So if you can take out that sort of sting of blame, then you can give them more ease to sort of help parents sort of be more at ease with things. I think that's helpful. But I also think as a parent, you see these things, how they struggle in relationships with friendships, how painful it can be. So I really think teaching that idea of the consistent, available, responsive. Actually, I teach psychology. Psychologists at Columbia, we have a clinical seminar, and I teach how to do therapy. And I bring in a little excerpt. When there's a girl that talks about how her best friend kind of, like, dissed her and her mother shows, you know what we'll show her. We'll create this party. We're not going to invite her, and she's going to come grovel. And only when she cries and grovel, only then will you accept her. And they do that. And she comes crying and groveling, and she accepts her. But what the mother doesn't know and doesn't understand because she doesn't have that whole Carp Simi's understanding, is that she's only, okay, now the friend is back, but she's perpetuated sort of like an insecure relationship for her daughter.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And by actually saying, you know what? So maybe this friend who is not carp, maybe you should look for more carp friends. And really teaching. So once you have the lingo, you can teach kids, also for them, how to create a secure environment for them. But if you don't know it, then sometimes parents do the opposite.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes. Seems like Carp Simi is the.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

For me, at least, that's kind of. I look for something simple that people can use to create a more secure life.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes. Yes. Thank you for that. The final question, and everyone gets this is, out of all of the conversations you've had throughout your entire life, which one stands as the most memorable? Who was it with? And what did you learn?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I'm gonna make me start crying because I really think about. I love talking to my mom. And we used to walk. We used to live close to one another and so sorry. And we would walk, and so I would walk her home. But then we'd realize, oh, the conversation is not over yet. So we'd walk back, and then we'd walk again. And that's when you asked me that's what I was thinking about. Yes. Thank you.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

See, once again, beautiful.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes. You know, I think that this last question that I ask, you know, it's interesting. It always evokes something. It does. There's some pull on emotion when we go back and we Think. Because we think about our loved ones.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Right. Exactly. And that's like secure priming also. It's like, with such a meaningful. Yeah, I agree with you.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes. Who we felt most secure with.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes. So it is. And it's my favorite question.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

It's a great question. Look what he did to me.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Well, thank you. And thank. Just real. Going back to everything I've been saying is thank you. I always say that. I try and I tell my boys, I say, we have limited time here on this earth. Make it meaningful.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Oh, I totally agree.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Impact someone's life. Make it better. Your work has made millions.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Of us. Better.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Thank you so.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Thank you so much.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Thank you. And I hope that with this one, I even gave a clear roadmap to sort of how to do it just beyond the romantic relationships. That was really important to me.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Thank you, Dr. Amir Levine. You know, this could be one of my favorite things about the pod, I think, you know, it's so wild. Like, we have so many incredible guests, but to talk to the people that I base my work on is just. It's just mind blowing to me. And it's such a privilege and a blessing. And he is one. You know, when Attached came out, which is what, 2010, when that book came out, I remember reading it thinking, this is really good. But I didn't realize how impactful the book was going to be to an entire industry. I mean, you think how many people talk about their attachment style? Like, everyone. To the point where, you know, he was very humble. He said, you know, attachment style came from Ainsworth. Right? John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth work. Absolutely. But he was the first to translate that work to adults and romantic partners. Like, he's an icon. And his new book, Secure, is just as great. It's just as great because it removes just the self identification piece and it pulls out to. Okay, how do you apply this theory to your life? From the conversation. And this shows you how an ego stroke is always good. Is. Well, I learned that when we have basically the same attachment styles to our partners and friends and co workers. So when I was like, all right, if we have this same attachment style, my attachment style can't be that all bad. It can't be bad. He destroyed the myth of your attachment style as a child, translating to your attachment style as an adult. We always hear it. That's completely mislabeled. That is a myth. And quite honestly, I have participated in perpetuating that myth myself. And when I say I've participated is I've said countless times, oh, wow, your parents showed you love in this way. Therefore this is most likely your attachment style today. Those two things don't necessarily go hand in hand. So I like that he destroyed that mythology. And then secondly, to his point is it's inspirational. It shows that you could have been non secure as a child and become secure as an adult. I am exactly what this data shows. I'm exactly who he described. I am avoidant with my friends, but it's not because I don't care about them, I don't love them. But I think about even my best friends. I will go weeks without a message. And you know, they all react differently. And now I understand that their reaction could also be based on their attachment. Some are just like, all right, cool, that's the way Paul rolls. Some just don't say anything back to me. Right. Others are like checking in, like, what's going on? What's going. You know, so just that it's interesting how a label can help to ease your mind about something. And so I did, I am walking away distinctly with that. But then also maybe number three is number now how to manage that with the carp cmes that he was talking about these interactions, but making sure that they're consistent and reliable, predictable. Now I understand how I can use that one tool just to help to manage those relationships. Because ultimately this is also something that I learned with Dr. Levine is by not doing that, I am causing severe pain. The highest level of brain. Well, he didn't use the word trauma, but the highest level of pain that I can give to someone I love by not interacting with them. I felt guilty. And I would always question, well, why am I doing this? Why am I acting this way to, you know, to my best friends? Like, why am I doing that? And I was thinking, okay, something's wrong with me. Like, or maybe does it mean that I don't really like them? Like, what is it? You know, And I would feel guilty and shame. But now I understand this is the way I'm programmed, you know, and that just understanding that I. I'm programmed that way reduces the guilt and the shame. And then having the tool further reduces any anxiety that I have around it. The too quick, like perhaps even today is I'm going to share this and say, I just learned I'm avoidant when it comes to my friendships. I think that's major. And also in my topography, you know, that I did it shows I don't have a problem sharing that with him. Cause I'M still in that secure box, I guess, suggests that I don't have an issue going to them, but I just don't go to them. You know, isn't it interesting that the guy who didn't have to take exams becomes, you know, he's a professor intellectual. Isn't that interesting? I'll also take away what he shared at the most memorable moment with his mother. I mean, that really got me. And yeah, you think about how just wanting to continue to engage with his mother, how they would just continue that walk, but understanding how she raised him, understanding the premium that he places on idea exchange. You could see how that's love. You may not know his name, but you know his work. And I guarantee, not only do you know his work, but you have implemented his work in your life. So now it's time to know his name. Dr. Amir Levine, what is the number one reason for fights in a relationship?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Nothing.

[Dr. John Gottman]

The most couples fight about absolutely nothing.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

However, we found that the number of times that a person hears contempt predicts how many infectious illnesses they're gonna have in the next four years.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Goodness. Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman, leading

[Podcast Co-host/Promoter]

experts in relationship research with over 50 years of experience. John is renowned for his groundbreaking work

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

on marital stability, while Julie is an acclaimed clinical psychologist.

[Dr. John Gottman]

Men who kiss their wives goodbye live an average of five years longer than men who don't. We've really started to understand what makes the difference between people who have a great sex life and people who say they have an awful sex life.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Please tell us.

[Dr. John Gottman]

Pick three times a year where you just go to a motel for an overnight. You know, it's magic if it's a good relish. Yeah, great.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

A minute. Don't interrupt me.

[Dr. John Gottman]

We went to a therapist.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You two went to therapist?

[Dr. John Gottman]

Therapists believed that what made relationships work was clear boundaries. She said to me, john, you can say no to Julie. And I said to Julie, do I sound like her? And she said, yeah, you do.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

But when you consider the divorce rate has been at 50% for decades, you realize their faith in marriage has been broken.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So I ask you, is marriage outdated?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you. And hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling, Ross, Work your magic.