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BTC216: Bitcoin Transforming Africa w/ Erik Hersman and Charlene Fadirepo (Bitcoin Podcast)
01:04:52
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- [00:01]
Preston Pysh
You're listening to tip.
- [00:03]
Eric Hersman
Hey, everyone. Welcome to this Wednesday's release of the Bitcoin Fundamentals Podcast. On today's show, we have a fascinating topic covered by two brilliant entrepreneurs and builders in the space with Charlene Fati Rupo and Mr. Eric Hersman. Although I've had guests like Alex Gladstein on the show in the past to talk about some of the things happening in Africa, Eric is the founder of Gridless and the person building and deploying modular bitcoin mining into the African communities. And additionally, we have Charlene with us to talk about her new book titled the Bitcoin Leap How Bitcoin Is Transforming Africa. Both of the guests just returned from a conference in Nairobi and are here to tell us about everything that's happening and how it's truly changing so much on the continent and bringing a ton of hope. This is an episode you will not want to miss, so get ready. Here's my chat with Charlene and Eric.
- [00:53]
Preston Pysh
Celebrating 10 years. You are listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pysh.
- [01:11]
Eric Hersman
Hey, everyone, welcome to the show. I'm here with Eric and Charlene. I'm really excited about this conversation because I think we're going to be able to take this in a bunch of different directions. So, guys, welcome to the show.
- [01:21]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Thanks for having us, Preston.
- [01:23]
Eric Hersman
So recently, I think like what, two weeks ago, there was an ABC conference, Africa Bitcoin Conference, I think it was in Kenya and you guys were both in attendance. Tell us about what this was like.
- [01:35]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Yeah, it feels like two weeks ago, but it was actually just last week. I mean, it was. Yeah, it finished up, I think on Wednesday last week. So what's it been? Yeah, a week. It's been here in Kenya. So we had, I don't know, about 600 plus people attending. It was sold out and it was just full of really good people. I think they said. Charlene, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I heard like over 40 countries were represented there.
- [01:57]
Preston Pysh
Yeah, easily. I agree, it was. So this was year three, right? So this is the third time we've had Africa Bitcoin conference and it has gotten better and better every year. I think one of the highlights for me was just to see the number of entrepreneurs starting ventures. Just one story. I met a gentleman named Jodem. He is a Kenyan entrepreneur. I met him three years ago at Africa Bitcoin conference in Ghana. He was a new developer, a new bitcoin core developer. And today or last week in Nairobi, he launched a new venture called bitsako. He's the founder of bitsako, which is a Kenyan savings tool for people to save in Bitcoin. So in three years time he became. He was a student of Bitcoin and now he's a founder. And that the pace of that innovation is what we actually saw at the Africa Bitcoin Conference. And it was phenomenal, just phenomenal.
- [02:47]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Yeah, Eric Bitsocco real quick on that one too. Jodem. I think both Charlene and I saw Jodem come from just being a software engineer to building stuff. But that. So Sacos here are savings companies which are basically a group of people who come together, band together and they share their savings with each other. And so it's a very African way of doing savings outside of banks and traditional lenders. So what he's. But before he built that, he'd been working on Fedimint for the past couple years, so he was very familiar with it. So he uses the Fedimint technology to, to build Bissaka on top of. And so it's kind of anybody can come on board and build their own little chama, that's what we call them here, and, and do something. But it was just one of really two cool new apps that launched at the event. The other one was Tondo. And Tondo is just a really easy way to pay any merchant in Kenya with M? Pesa. So they have, you know, M? Pesa here is our mobile payment system that's been around for, I don't know, I guess it's like almost 20 years. But it's. Everybody has it. And so if you want to pay with Bitcoin, you can. And you just pull up the Tondo app, you send money to the person in M? Pesa. So they don't even realize that you're paying with Bitcoin. But it's a really easy way to start getting people to understand that it's money. So that got a huge amount of usage this last week.
- [04:00]
Eric Hersman
Huh. This idea of community custody, I think is lost on a lot of people from call it the US or Europe. Explain this in a lot more detail on how prevalent is this. If I went to Kenya for the ABC conference and I was just talking to any random person off the street, would this be an idea, this idea of community custody? Would this be something that most people intuitively understand or are used to help us just kind of understand the lay of the land and how common something like this is? I guess, yeah, sure.
- [04:30]
Charlene Fati Rupo
It's so Charlene, feel free to dip in here too. But like all over Africa, it's actually usually a lot of women's groups, at least in East Africa that's where it started. We call them Merry Go Rounds or sacos or chamas. So there's different terminology for it. The main idea is that a group of 5, 10, 12 women might come together and each of them will put in 200 shillings each month. They'll meet every week or once a month or something like that. They'll each put their money and then one person gets to take that money and use it for whatever they want that month. And that's kind of where the idea started. It's of course evolved since then into different structures and it's used differently and there's different names for it, whether you're in Southern Africa or in West Africa versus East Africa, but it's really all over the place. So the idea of shared custody, of savings has already been here and it's been here for decades. The idea of doing this on Bitcoin is what's new. And I think that's what makes Bitsaco so interesting and so exciting for so many of us who have grown up in Africa, have seen it used and we can, we can see the potential of getting people sucked into that space and saving in Bitcoin and using in Bitcoin.
- [05:32]
Preston Pysh
And so what's so interesting is that not only is it in Africa, it's in the Caribbean, it's in Latin America. It's a very culturally steeped type practice. I have family members that have that, but it's called a susu.
- [05:44]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Right.
- [05:44]
Preston Pysh
So this idea of kind of the collective savings depending on other family members for some sort of a collective financial goal, it is a cultural practice that is very common around the world. And I think that's what is really great about bitsako. They're building on practices that people already do, right? So they're not learning something new. They're not learning to trust each other. They're just, they're using Bitcoin as Fediments as a technology, but also saving in Bitcoin so that they have kind of a better, longer term financial result. And then the other thing I wanted to point out is that, so I'm a banker by trade, so when I was talking to Jodem about sacos, I said that's just a credit union, right? It sounds crazy, there's an acronym for it, but it's literally just a credit union. It's a member owned structure, typically. And you know, in the United States, credit Unions are known to be safer. They have better interest rates, they have more favorable terms, and they're a friendlier baking experience. And so that's what they're leaning on as they think about bit sacco. So I'm just. I'm super excited about that. And I just think that whenever you can create a technology that highlights cultural practices and traditions that are already in place and use technology to accelerate that, that's going to be a game changer. So, you know, I'm excited. And again, that's kind of what we saw at abc. Just culturally relevant innovation that was unique to the country, region, or space.
- [07:08]
Eric Hersman
Love it. Hey, so I'm going to embarrass you a little bit, Charlene. So Charlene has a new book out, and I just happen to be on Twitter, you know, kind of scrolling around, and I see this tweet of Charlene there with Jack Dorsey. He's looking at your book. How fun is this? And I just shared it for people that are watching the video version of this. I just showed the tweet, and there Eric has the book, the Bitcoin Leap. How Bitcoin is Transforming Africa. And I've gone through the book, Charlene. It's fantastic. I want to talk about a couple different things throughout the show, but talk to us about writing this book because, I mean, this is not so easy endeavor to write a book and then to market the book and all that other stuff that goes with it, and it's fantastic. It's fantastic. So what's your key takeaway with the book? Give us the so what?
- [07:55]
Preston Pysh
Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate you mentioning that. So, to me, this book is a celebration of African innovation. I mean, hands down, the stories that you hear in this book highlight the incredible transformational change that bitcoin is having in Africa. And I felt like. So there's so many amazing bitcoin books, and I love them all, but there is not one bitcoin book that focuses on the Africa bitcoin story. And this was very important to me. And as a. I started up as a bitcoin educator, and I always struggled because, you know, it was easy to tell the story to make bitcoin relevant for people in the West.
- [08:28]
Eric Hersman
Yeah.
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Preston Pysh
But when I talk to my friends in Nigeria, they're like, well, what about us? You know, although Nigeria is one of the African countries that was on bitcoin well before certain pockets of the United States. And so I felt like the space, the bitcoin ecosystem needed a collection of stories, a canon, a piece of literature. That actually highlighted the incredible entrepreneurs that were building on bitcoin in Africa that actually talked about the practical utility of bitcoin. Right. The broadened practice called utility, and then focused on the social good. So that's why I wrote the book. And I'm very thankful that it has been well received. I did have a chance to talk to Jack Dorsey about the book.
- [09:07]
Eric Hersman
Yeah.
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Preston Pysh
With the Jackson, he was excited. So I met him. I met him the first Africa bitcoin conference and interviewed him. We had a great conversation. And I'd like to think we stayed in touch, but. But no, but he, I think, has always been. He would, like, retweet some of my tweets every now and then. Because I think even three years ago, we were very much aligned in the thought that Africa was the most compelling use case for bitcoin. That was kind of my hypothesis three years ago. So reconnecting with him and Nairobi, it was wonderful because it was a full circle moment. I gave him the book. He said, I'll read it. And I said, let me know what you think. He said he would. So amazing. It was great.
- [09:47]
Eric Hersman
And he has put his. I mean, he's put his money where his mouth is standing up. The B Trust nonprofit that's over there and investing in startups. And he's on record saying he believes Africa is the future and where everything's going to be moving here in the coming decades. So, yeah, very, very interesting and awesome that you were able to get it in front of him and you got the book out there. One of the chapters in the book is titled Bitcoin Mining Africa's Ultimate Problem Solver. And here, here we have Eric who is on the ground literally doing this. And so I want to get into this idea. I think this is super important for the listeners. Talk to us about gridless. Talk to us about. When I look at what you're doing, Eric, you're solving the chicken and egg problem in Africa with getting communities powered. But there has to be some buyer of last resort to consume this energy. And so you're solving this chicken and egg problem. At least that's how I'm describing it. But take it away. Tell us in your own words how you kind of view the problem that you're solving there and how bitcoin really is this ultimate problem solver in Africa.
- [10:53]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Yeah, well, before we get into that, though, I mean, we should talk about how a year and a bit ago, we had our first Africa bitcoin mining summit where we're trying to get together the African bitcoin miners from across the continent. We learn from each other, make connections, help with everything from suppliers to how to. How to fix things. Tricks and tips that we know so that we can share them with each other. And people get better at what they do. And along comes this, you know, well put together lady from West Africa who is all of a sudden interviewing all of us about what's going on with bitcoin mining. And I'm like, charlene, what are you doing here? I mean, do you mind? She's, well, you know, I play with miners a little bit, I think all to. To tell the story. And she started. Did a small video on her. Her trip here, did a bunch of interviews with different people.
- [11:36]
Eric Hersman
And Eric, she's. She's a. She's an electrical engineer from Virginia. She's got an MBA from Duke. Like, she doesn't tell anybody this kind of stuff. But yeah, she comes in and she's like interviewing people on minors, I'm sure, and just like, smarter than. Keep going. Sorry to interrupt. These are the things that would never be said.
- [11:54]
Charlene Fati Rupo
The rest of us who actually do the Miami, you know, and so we get there, she gets there. She's like running around doing all this stuff, and I'm like, what's she doing all this for us? Maybe it's for the podcast, maybe it's for this, you know, little film she's doing. I had no idea that at least at that point that she was writing the book. And so it was cool that when I finally got the book, like two days ago, I looked into it. I went straight to the mining section, of course, and just read up on the different stuff. And I was like, I think she got a lot of this as she came and met the people at the conference. And mining just generally speaking, has gone a long way. So last year in September, at the African bitcoin mining summit, there was like, call it like seven or eight miners there from across the continent. This year we had it a year later in Ethiopia, and at the point we had it in Nairobi in 2023, I'd say there's a couple megawatts under use, right? Definitely under 50 megawatts under use in most of the continent. And by the time it had passed one year, we were at 600 megawatts in just Ethiopia had been added, not counting what had been added in Nigeria and in Kenya and in other places. So where we're seeing a massive increase in energy being used and monetized by bitcoin mining. And I think we're Just at the beginning of it, if I look at kind of broad space, I see the demand for energy increasing in Europe and the US and other kind of more advanced countries in the world. And what I think that's going to do is it's going to increase the price for energy. And that means that bitcoin mining will go to places like Africa. I think we're going to have a larger and larger footprint of that bitcoin mining globally as the years progress. Yeah. So real quick on gridless. It's like we've been, you know, I think a number of people have heard of what we do in the past now, which is we, we've been looking for people who built stranded power, which basically means you're, you're running in some off grid energy site. Maybe it's biomass, maybe it's hydro or geothermal. Solar tends to not be very good, by the way, for mining. But the others are great. And we, and they built it. But the, the community around that site only uses 30% of the power. So you build 100 kilowatt kilowatts and 30 kilowatts is used, that means there's 70 kilowatts left over. And so we'll, we'll bump along into that, into that little community. We'll talk to the energy guy who built it and we'll say, so what are you doing with the rest of that power? And he's like, well, nothing. And we say, well, how about we take it off you, right? And he's like, okay, well it'll be, you know, I want to charge 7 cents for this. Well, we can't pay for it directly, but we can do something like a revenue share. Can we tell you about bitcoin? And they've never heard about bitcoin or they've heard about it, but they really don't know what it is. Then we'll walk around the site, we'll look at it and they'll be like, and we'll come back to the room that they're in and we'll say, okay, so what do you think? We can bring a mining container here or maybe just a couple of shelves of miners. We can put them in there, we can monetize this energy. And when your community turns on a new maze mill or they turn on their lights in the evening, we'll power down miners automatically. It's this perfect kind of demand response. He's like, oh, that sounds amazing, amazing. Will you pay 5 cents? And we're like, what? No, no, we don't we can't pay you cash for this but you can make, you know, you can make a revenue share. You'll earn part of this bitcoin and that gets paid to you every day. And they're like, well, how much is that bitcoin worth? Well, it changes not that, you know, you got all these complications. You've got to. And at the end I say, listen, how much are you getting paid today? It was nothing. Would you like something more than nothing? And they like, yeah, okay, well let's just try it. We often show up and we say let's just set something up for a few months.
- [15:20]
Eric Hersman
Yeah.
- [15:21]
Charlene Fati Rupo
And see how it goes. And we set up. We, you know, we've got a mining container there, it's on in three days and all of a sudden they're earning money and they're like, oh man, this is amazing. And then we usually tell them to sit on it, but this is the beginning of the orange pilling of that energy producer. And we've now gone on to where there's one of our partners. We've done two sites with now and we're looking at a couple more with them. So it's worked so well as coming in as a buyer of last resort that they want to bring us on as build new sites so that we become an anchor tenant from the beginning. And then there's two new sites down in Malawi that we're looking at that will also be coming in with a partner that we've already had before. So yeah, that's what we do. Gridlist comes in and helps kind of make off grid energy profitable with bitcoin mining.
- [16:03]
Eric Hersman
The thing that's so exciting for me. Oh, I'm sorry Charlene, go ahead.
- [16:06]
Preston Pysh
I was just going to add, I mean Eric kind of blew through this but Eric spearheaded the start of the organization called Gamma and that literally seeded other bitcoin mining companies in Africa. And they didn't have to do that but they literally have allowed other bitcoin miners to start up giving them so definitely tips and trips but just kind of giving them the playbook to actually start their businesses. And I think that's really significant because like I, in the book I talk about that selfless leadership and I, and I give gritless credit because not only did you guys start Gamma, you also open source the blueprints to your mining container. That's significant. Again, other companies would have kind of held that information close to the vest and built in secret but in true like open source bitcoin esque form you guys are really focused on the collective and making sure that the ecosystem grows. And I think that's to gridless credit.
- [16:55]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Yeah, I'll tell you a funny story about that, Charlene. We were sitting there. So Bar, who I think you've met, is our mechanical engineer and he's worked with me for like over a decade in past businesses. It's really good. And he had designed our bitcoin mining container. We'd gone through a couple iterations and we're just before the Africa bitcoin mining summit in last year. I said, okay, hey, I need all the designs because I'm going to, I'm just going to publish them to everybody so that they can get them too, so they don't have to start from scratch because not most people won't have a mechanical engineer in their back pocket that they can put to work on designing a container. He's like, eric, are you sure? I mean, like, why don't we just sell the plants? I was like, you know, listen, it's just not how we make our money, right? You know, like just, it doesn't actually matter. So how about, you know, how about we have a license for agreement with them? You know, he's like coming up all these things like, buddy, I understand why you're saying this, but you know, the reason that I love bitcoin mining is I have no sales, I have no marketing and I have no customer service. I don't want any of those things. So let's just open source this and we'll make our money off mining like we normally do. And much to his chagrin, he, you know, we, we went ahead and did it. Now he's getting, you know, he's on call with, you know, different miners who are trying to use those same designs to build stuff in Nigeria and Ghana and elsewhere. So it's been kind of fun to see, but the reality is that we don't make our money off of it. Why should we focus on that? And we're open source kind of guys anyway, so we like it when more people can do more stuff.
- [18:18]
Preston Pysh
Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.
- [18:21]
Eric Hersman
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- [19:20]
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- [21:26]
Preston Pysh
Alright, back to the show.
- [21:27]
Eric Hersman
Eric. When I hear what you guys are doing, the thing that I find so exciting is you have going back to this idea of the chicken and egg problem with energy and powering and just competition. So community doesn't have access to just energy abundance. How can you possibly think that that community can compete with others? We'll just take it to an extreme. Not only are they powered, but they have access to AI and all these other things, like your ability to leapfrog and just do more with way less start energy. It starts with having a powered community and the ability to power tools to whether the tool is AI or you know, some type of jackhammer or whatever. Just generic, right? And so when we look at what you're providing, the buyer of last resort is saying, hey, you can come into this community, that community, you name it community, and we can build infrastructure now. And we know there's going to be a buyer that's interested in consuming this electricity. Even if we built this today and only 10% of it was being used naturally without any bitcoin miners, now all of a sudden we can build any size power plant and as long as we can produce the energy for a pretty cheap price, which my understanding in Africa is pretty much the case all around, and there's tons of natural resources to tap into, whether it's hydro or whatever. And so now you're really kind of changing the competitive landscape because of bitcoin mining. And nothing to my knowledge has ever existed in history that could provide such a service to allow this issue of the chicken and egg to disappear. It seems though that, you know, based on what you said, it seems that today in the start, which I would call this prototyping versus where I think this is all going in 10 or 20 years from now is there's energy infrastructure that's already been built that is producing way in excess of what the local community is demanding. And you're coming in and demonstrating how you can consume all of this. It seems like that's where it's at today. It doesn't seem like you've had power producers come in and build because they know that the bitcoin miners can consume the additional electricity. Is that a fair statement? And if so, do you see that shifting anytime soon based on what you've demonstrated through a lot of this prototyping?
- [23:42]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Can I actually share something with you? On screen.
- [23:45]
Eric Hersman
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:46]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Okay, so this is a slide I like to use to talk to people about things. So the global access to electricity today is 800 million. 600 million of them are in Africa. Right. Those are people who do not have any access to electricity. But if you look at this research paper that was done this year, 14 years ago, in 2010, we had 1.4 billion people without electricity across the world. And that number's dropped to the 800 million that we see today. But look at the bottom. Sub Saharan Africa, it's remained exactly the same at 600 million. Right. Why, why would we still not have enough electricity in Africa? That's the kind of thing that bothered me when we started this whole process of gridless is I understood bitcoin mining. We went in there, we started doing it, but it just made me start wondering, why is it that we don't have enough electricity for everybody? What's going on here? And so I had to do a ton of reading to understand what was setting this problem up. And the thing that was bothering me was there's this problem of lack of energy across Africa and everybody knows it. Okay, so why are we not building more electricity? And the answer really quickly came down to this, was that the national power grid in utilities, they built about as far as they can to get a return on investment. They won't get a return on investment by punching power into these very far away communities that are distributed over large amounts of space. So they don't. So the only answer then is that mini grids have to be built in these rural areas. It turns out that Africa is one of the places with the best off grid energy resources. So you have hydro, you have solar, you have geothermal, if you have the capital to develop it, you have wind, wind, all these kind of things that actually make it really easy to bring in off grid energy. But then, so why are investors not investing in off grid energy if there's a buyer there? Right? And the answer for that is it's stupid investment. It just doesn't make any sense because there's not enough people who can pay for it. So if I'm a poor rural African, how am I going to pay enough money to pay back a $2 million investment in energy? It just takes too long. And so I can buy an LED light bulb or I can charge my phone, sure, but that doesn't use very power. And so if I'm an energy investor, I basically enter this willful delusion with energy developer that will someday in 30 years get paid back on this energy, but that just doesn't happen. It never has. Right. So along comes bitcoin mining and says, oh, by the way, we can make this profitable for you now. And it does. And it's like this magical thing. But here's the crazy bit. Who's actually financing these things to date? It's concessionary financers. So this is your Rockefeller Foundations, it's your usaids, it's, it's all these African Development bank, maybe the European Development bank, it might come as a surprise to you, but they're not all big fans of bitcoin. And so even though we came out and showed this model, we actually had at least one of our energy partners who had gotten debt financing from one of them get pushed back and told that they couldn't receive the bitcoin.
- [26:43]
Eric Hersman
What's the hang up there? Why is that?
- [26:45]
Charlene Fati Rupo
So I was on the phone with that funder and I explained to them what was going on and where the anchor tenant on that site. In fact, if we're not on that site, that energy site is not self sustaining and goes bankrupt. Right. So our existence on it makes it possible for that whole community to get power. Wow. Right. We're talking thousands of families have electricity in their homes. People have built, you know, maize mills so people don't have to, the women don't have to walk 10km now to get their maize milled. There's cell phone towers that have power in them and they want that to go away because they'd rather we not pay the energy partner. Bitcoin as their revenue stream. It's one of those things that it's a perception problem and a regulator problem in Europe that is infecting the development of energy in Africa. So that then led us to think, okay, well if that's the case in the financers, if we know that the symptom that we've been solving for is that is making energy profitable, the disease is actually we're not building enough energy. All right, so how do we build more energy? Well, if we go back to look at the traditional financing of it so far, you realize that it just will never move forward. Is there a new way to think about financing more energy? And as bitcoiners, we were challenged by the likes of Jeff Booth, Elise from Stillmark and obi, all of us, either friends or investors in gridless. And they said, listen, you're thinking of this with a fiat mindset. Why don't you look at this as a bitcoiner and think about how you could do that. And by the way, do you know you could get loans against bitcoin? We were like, what? We had no idea you could do that. So what we did is we sat down, reran the numbers and we're like, if you do bitcoin financing of new energy, you could actually build much more energy than you could if you spend it with dollars anyway. And maybe there's a way around this kind of broken model of energy investment in Africa. And bitcoin is the method for that too. And to kind of give you an example of what I mean by this, the capital efficiency is really just unmatched. So If I take $20 million and I put that into Runner River Hydro in Africa, I can build 10 megawatts. So in 30 years, unless I go raise more money, I'm still just going to have 10 megawatts. However, if I take that same $20 million, put that into a bitcoin treasury, and then I leverage that bitcoin treasury against a Swiss bank, that'll give me a 50% LTV at an 8% interest rate, I can build 1 to 4 gigawatts in 30 years. That's the difference.
- [29:04]
Eric Hersman
Wow.
- [29:05]
Charlene Fati Rupo
That's 148x capital efficiency.
- [29:07]
Eric Hersman
Wow.
- [29:08]
Charlene Fati Rupo
So there's a new way to think about this. We see the likes of Saylor using it for microstrategy, bitcoin trading as a really interesting way to make more money, make more dollars. But there's a way to make both make more bitcoin and more energy with it too.
- [29:23]
Eric Hersman
Man, that is so powerful.
- [29:26]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Wow. I just threw a lot at you guys.
- [29:28]
Eric Hersman
No, that's amazing. It's.
- [29:31]
Preston Pysh
So listen, I think your average bitcoiner is thinking the same thing. We have all of this bitcoin. We don't want to sell it, we don't want to pay capital gains. Can we lend against it? It's the same model and the retail level, it's just, hey, I don't want to pay taxes. At the corporate level, it's, you know, how can I make my money work for me? I mean, it makes sense. I think. I think Saylor is pricking the consciousness of everyone and saying, are you, you know, is this a bitcoin first approach? You know, are you really being a good steward with your resources? So, I mean, it makes a lot of sense.
- [29:59]
Eric Hersman
I'm just excited for where this goes because when you show that comparison of the numbers, all of a sudden you're highly incentivized to act in this manner and to build out the energy in these locations. And I just. I can't even imagine the unlock from a talent standpoint of what happens when you start doing this over the next decade or two. It's going to be mind blowing. Yeah. Go ahead, Charlotte. Good, Charlie.
- [30:23]
Preston Pysh
I just. I just want to tell a story because I think you have kind of the large. You have marathon that's playing in Africa. You have grid list, and then you have some of the smaller players. And I just want to tell a quick story about a smaller player.
- [30:34]
Eric Hersman
Yeah.
- [30:34]
Preston Pysh
Because the marketplace is open for everyone to win. And so in 2022, I met Yasarcy Mbola. And I will, I give him credit. He was the first person. He's a Nigerian bitcoin miner. He is the person that explained bitcoin mining to me. I met him on Twitter and he was like, I'm mining bitcoin in Africa. And I'm like, what? Are you Serious? He had 12 Bitcoin miners. And he said, you know, Charlene. And so his story is incredible. He was. I think he studied agriculture undergrad. He was fixing solar bikes. And he wasn't able to make a living fixing solar bikes. He clearly has an engineering ability. So he switched to bitcoin mining, was running 12 machines and making about US$60 a month, which again, not a ton in the US but in Nigeria, not bad for an income stream. That was a couple years ago. I talked to him in Nairobi. He's running more than three sites and has almost a thousand miners in his company. He's CEO of Trojan Mining Company. He's running a 500 megawatt facility in Nigeria. He probably is the largest bitcoin or one of the largest bitcoin miners in Nigeria. He's probably about 28 years old. He has employed his brother, many of his friends. He literally has used bitcoin mining to uplift his entire community. He tells me that he has friends that were doing some dubious things. They have stopped that, and he's trained them in bitcoin mining. And he's literally become a leader in his community. And then last piece is he learned to fix bitcoin miners and he taught himself. Yeah, so this is a kid. I mean, you know, a CEO, but just really literally. He had the engineering prowess, he had the intellectual curiosity, and he had the talent to create an entire mining company by himself, with his buddies. And he's doing extremely well. And now he's one of the folks that Eric's worked with to kind of give people insight into how to mine in Nigeria. And that's incredible. And so I think it's important to say that like small scale, large scale, that innovation is happening at every level and Africa is the place for it.
- [32:42]
Eric Hersman
I love it.
- [32:44]
Charlene Fati Rupo
What's funny about Siamboa real quick, Preston, is that we were just sitting down talking this last week and he set up Energy Bloom's new site. Macare has a new site and it's a gas flaring site in Nigeria. But he called on Ciambola, who's one of the Gamma members in Nigeria. So Siambola and Sambo shoot down there, they, they get waylaid by pirates on the way and he loses his very cool merch from the African Bitcoin mining center that he's the most sad about. But they set up this new site and then they make their way back and he doesn't get mugged on the way back the other way. But that's the kind of craziness that goes on here. So you have a community of people who are coming together to learn about things and teach each other. And then other people reach out to them. Instead of saying, oh, let me go take the energy contract from you because now I know where it could be. He says, yeah, sure, pay me to help you set this up. But then it's your site, here's your 500 kilowatts, 1 megawatt, whatever it is. And I think it's not always going to be those kind of relationships, right? There is going to be some cutthroat going at it for energy contracts. But you see this kind of work within the continent thus far. And we've been trying to build a community that works together rather than one that is odds with each other.
- [33:52]
Eric Hersman
That's the power of ABC too. You're getting people together, you're showing the team effort. Right? Charlene, this story you just told reminds me of some of the coaching that I find in your book. So this idea of innovation, let me read this quote here, the start of chapter three. It says, creativity is thinking new things, innovation is doing new things. And you go into this leap framework. So for people listening, very, very simply, this is for people to really kind of harness this idea of innovation to transform themselves. And you just provided an amazing story of somebody who you literally just did this. And so somebody might be seeing that or hearing that and saying, I need to innovate myself, I need to have some type of breakthrough like the story that you just provided. And so you have. It's a four step process. I'm going to very generically cover this, but she goes into a lot of Detail in the book on how a person can do this. You start off, love the unknown, then embrace the fear, align with your goals, and then power up your skills are the four things that she talks about in this leap framework. Talk to us about what you're trying to accomplish with this in the book.
- [34:58]
Preston Pysh
Yeah, and thank you for bringing this up because I don't think I've spoken a lot about this part of the book. I meet bitcoiners from all around the world, and so what happens is that you learn about bitcoin, then you're excited, and then you don't know what to do. And I literally wanted to create a chapter to help guide a new bitcoiners thinking to figure out how to take their place in the bitcoin space. It's not enough to huddle, it is not enough to hold. We need all kinds of talent building and creating. And so I actually tried to think about my journey and created this framework so people can figure out how to plant the seeds of innovation in their own lives. And so I really hope that people use this chapter to inspire themselves to build in the ecosystem. And don't be compelled. You don't have to be a developer, you don't have to be a minor. You literally could be a content creator and make an incredible impact on this ecosystem. I just would like people to read the book and then take action. So, yeah, this is probably one of the most fun chapters. And particularly women. Sometimes women can be intimidated in the bitcoin ecosystem. And so I really hope that if women who read the book, I really hope that they decide, okay, well, I'm going to figure out how to leap. I'm going to take Charlene's framework, apply it to what I can do, and really make an impact in the ecosystem.
- [36:12]
Eric Hersman
I love it.
- [36:13]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Well, speaking about women too, I mean, you've been doing some stuff with the women in the community with events around ABZ and stuff.
- [36:19]
Preston Pysh
Oh, yeah, that's right. So two years ago, I started something tiny called the Satoshi Sister Circle. And so it was an idea. I'll give Natalie Bruno credit. I'm a huge fan of Natalie. She's a good friend of mine. Natalie has done amazing work creating a space for women in the larger Bitcoin magazine conference. And I spoke at one of her first events and I said, and it was incredible. We had 200 women from all around the world. It was in Miami. And I was like, this is amazing. Can we create something like this for abc? And so that same year, I went to Ghana and said, can we just have a women's brunch? I really would like to bring women together in this space so that we can start to think about how we want to make an impact. It was a small brunch but it was great. And so many women came up to me and said we need this. And so from that point on, you know, we had another women's Satoshi Sister Circle brunch that was in Nairobi and Gridless was a sponsor. So thank you, Gridless Betty was a sponsor. Thank you Fedi. And it has developed into a global empowerment network for women in the ecosystem. We are starting a mentoring program which I'm super excited about and we would really like to grow women in the space. If they want to be employees at fantastic bitcoin companies, great. If they want to be entrepreneurs, we want to support them in that. Or if they just want to be creators. But we want to move people from this spectator view of bitcoin to an action oriented view. And so hopefully the Satoshi Sister Circle organization and we'll enable that. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.
- [37:49]
Eric Hersman
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- [39:19]
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- [41:35]
Preston Pysh
All right, back to the show, guys.
- [41:38]
Eric Hersman
I got to tell you a funny story that happened to me. I normally don't like to talk during the shows. I want to showcase my guests. But this is too funny. You're talking about Natalie Brunel and women in Bitcoin. And this story is hilarious. This story is hilarious. All right, so. So we're in Miami. This is probably, I don't know, maybe two years ago or something like that, and Natalie was putting on her Women in Bitcoin and my wife was with me in Miami, and Natalie kept telling me, preston, you got to make sure your wife comes to this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I tell my wife, and you guys got to realize my wife really doesn't. She's not really interested in bitcoin at all. It's hilarious. It works great for us because, you know, I do this show, and it's like, after I'm done, we don't talk about that kind of stuff.
- [42:20]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Stuff.
- [42:20]
Eric Hersman
And. But anyway, she's there with me in Miami, and when she's with me and we're walking around, it almost always turns into these, like, hardcore, like, finance. And she's not a math person either. I'm a hardcore math person. So, like, I think in her mind, anytime we have, like, a bitcoin conversation, it's math and financial terminology and blah, blah, blah. And she's just like, get me out of here. Like, I don't really. So, anyway, long story short, Natalie's like, preston, make sure Demi comes over to the thing. So. So I'm telling my wife, and she's like, okay, I guess I'll go. Like, I'm gonna go there and sit and listen to all this engineering, math, blah, blah, blah. She goes. She has the best time ever.
- [42:58]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Great.
- [43:00]
Eric Hersman
Because my wife, she runs a nonprofit, and so she's very, like, nonprofit oriented and whatever. So she goes to this, and they're showcasing a lot of these amazing stories of, like, how bitcoin's impacting people and whatnot. So she comes back that I. I didn't go. Greg Foss went. There's a picture of Greg Foss. He was the only guy at this event. But anyway, she comes back, and she was like. She was thrilled. So this is the funny part of the story. It was like, the next day or whatever. I'm not trying to name drop. I'm not trying to, like, do anything. This story is hilarious. So we both got asked to have dinner with Michael Sailor, and we're at his house, and There was probably 10 people, 12 people or something like that at the dinner table. And Michael runs these dinners in the way Michael operates. And he starts off the dinner, and he says, all right, I want everybody to go around the table and say the one thing that you're thankful for before we start having a conversation. So it goes around the table, and my wife and I are sitting there at the very end of the table. We're the last ones to go. Goes around the table. This is so ridiculous. So it gets to my wife and she has to say what she's thankful for. And doesn't she say she goes, well, I am thankful for Natalie Brunel because the first time I feel like I actually understand bitcoin. And the whole table, the whole table just erupts laughing. And they're all looking at me like, preston, you idiot. Like, how in the world is your wife saying that she never understood bitcoin until she met Natalie Brunel.
- [44:31]
Preston Pysh
So sometimes you have to hear it from a woman.
- [44:33]
Eric Hersman
Right, so exactly.
- [44:35]
Preston Pysh
Just to, I guess why these spaces are important.
- [44:37]
Eric Hersman
That's why it's important. And you know, I. I guess it's, you know, it also.
- [44:42]
Preston Pysh
But you know what, Preston? That's an amazing story and that's just how the world know we need a lot of voices in bitcoin because sometimes the same message is just not heard from the wrong person. So there you go.
- [44:53]
Eric Hersman
That was definitely the wrong person. Right.
- [44:56]
Preston Pysh
But hopefully she's coming to more events going forward.
- [45:00]
Eric Hersman
She has come to some more events and she just. I think, honestly though, like, ever. Ever since this brunch that Natalie threw, my wife has looked at it very differently than she ever looked at it before. So I guess I have Natalie to than as well. But. Yeah, women in bitcoin, right? Women in bitcoin. Sorry, that was a really long story. I hate to take time out of the show for personal stories, but. Okay, let's see here. I'm a little lost and embarrassing myself. Okay, I know where I want to go. Eric. So during the ABC event, you took some people out to a mining site. I'm curious, what were some of the comments that surprised people the most when they got on the ground and they actually saw like the physical hardware and what it was that you were doing? Like, what's some of the. The comments that you heard people say.
- [45:46]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Oh, like, oh, we didn't realize it was this easy or you make money doing this. I'm just kidding. They didn't say that. But it's interesting when you get people on the ground, even fellow Kenyans, right. They look around, they're like, Bitcoin has always been an esoteric thing for most people where it's this digital currency. You don't touch or see it, but for the first time they get to see something physical that's a part of bitcoin and they can actually touch it and they can hear the fans going and they can feel the heat. And all of a sudden they're like, okay, this is where new bitcoin gets created. This is where transactions happen. So even with bitcoiners from Africa, it becomes real, right? I think that's the thing that gets always gratifying to see is that people kind of can put a point on it. We took people to three different sites, this ABC actually. So we took them to our biomass, we took them to our hydro, and we took them to geothermal, thermal. And so different groups went to different places. You know, there's something kind of magical about each. Each of those types, right? It was turning agricultural waste into energy, taking steam from 2 km deep in the earth to make energy. Watching the river and just seeing the turbines spinning and, you know, each of these things, again, it kind of brings it to the fore. And I say that in. Charlene would remember this from my talk. I talked actually a lot about how while energy, human progress is a story of energy, we have distanced ourselves so much from what energy actually is, from the electricity in our homes, to the hospital being open at night, to all these normal things that we just take for granted. We forget what energy actually is and how much people power is behind everything we do. And so when you get to see energy being made and you get to see it then powering this base financial commodity called bitcoin, you really realize there's something here, right? And I think that's the gratifying part is like, you know, some guys geek out over the technical parts of it, and they're looking at it, they're like saying, oh, so this machine is really that dumb? Yeah, it's really that dumb. It's really that poorly made, right? They're really not great machines. And you're like, okay, well, if you can do that with that, imagine what you could do with this. And they start thinking about, well, near my village is a river that nobody's putting the hydro on, and could we do something there? The visitors who come in are always enthralled by just talking to community members. They'll talk to somebody who lives nearby and say, how has electricity changed your life? And from Bitcoin, Honey Badger was here, and she went to the hydro site with me, and she ended up talking alongside, I think, Joe Nakamoto to some of the local community members. And she was very silent on the way back as she was thinking about how much of an impact she could see this energy had on everyday lives of people in the community. And it's heavy, right? We've been distanced from it. Those of us who live in the city. And when you get out to the rural area, you realize how much of A base commodity energy is. Yeah.
- [48:46]
Eric Hersman
Charlene, did you go to any of the sites when you were there on the tours?
- [48:49]
Preston Pysh
I was fortunate enough to visit the Kotugu site, a couple on the first Africa bitcoin mining summit. And I think you realize. So I agree with everything that Eric said. But then you realize that when you go to one site, there's so many areas of rural Africa that do not have electricity. I mean, the sight line of just gorgeous trees, and they call it the bush, but it is the most fertile and beautiful place that you ever seen. So bush sometimes has a negative connotation. I think of it as the Garden of Eden because there's rolling blankets of lush, lush grass and trees and everything. Just pristine beauty of beautiful earth. For there are people that just live there and they. And they're kind of doing the best with what they have. And in many cases they don't. They don't have a lot of access to resources. So you just kind of get. It is a reminder of definitely how, you know, gratitude is really important in this space, but also how much work we have to do. There's so much work. And I think that the encouraging part for me is that, that there's so many areas in Africa that can very easily benefit from a mini grid, you know, and just like that, you can change lives immediately. You know, you don't have to wait for the World bank. You don't have to wait for the government. You don't. You literally don't have to wait for anybody. You, you just need. You don't even need a ton of money. You could just get started and the community will support you. And that's what I think is beautiful. It's that, you know, we have such interesting, unique problems in Africa and again, just incredible innovation to solve them.
- [50:21]
Eric Hersman
What's one of the biggest hangups?
- [50:23]
Charlene Fati Rupo
One more image of something.
- [50:25]
Eric Hersman
Yeah, go ahead.
- [50:26]
Charlene Fati Rupo
So this, this is the site that was built in Zambia. It's a 700 kilowatt site in very, very rural Zambia that powers. When we started a year ago there, it powered 1,000 families and about 200 businesses. Now it powers 1,500 families and 250 businesses. Charlene was dead on on this. This site was actually built with some concessionary financing, but it was built by the community. So all of that civil works you see on the side there, there was no heavy equipment used. It was built by members of the community who came together and laid those stones stone by stone, cemented it. You know, of course, the turbine and the pipes were brought in from afar, but the rocks were all local. It's on the, you know, the. On the Zambezi River. It's a beautiful place. But you know, what I think is interesting about this is that there's sites like this all over Africa. The things I talked to is this slide, which is this map shows all of the hydro available across the continent. Sub Saharan. And there's 400 gigawatts of energy available. 40 gigawatts have been built. Right. And you can see from this that there's actually very small sites as well as large sites on this map in the red and blue dots. There's so much more to be developed. And Charlene's right. We don't need concessionary financing to build this. We don't need a bunch of aid money to do this. This can be done as bitcoiners, as investors, just with bitcoin mining being a part of it, that completely changes the dynamic of what we have in front of us. And realizing that we're in the place that has some of the best inputs for energy in the world, into the place that has the least amount of energy for the people. We realize that you're actually sitting in a perfect storm where bitcoin mining can solve a major humanitarian need at the same time as making real money. Yeah. Wow.
- [52:09]
Eric Hersman
What would you guys say is one of the main things that are preventing growth or preventing bitcoin from really kind of taking hold? Is it policy? Is it?
- [52:20]
Charlene Fati Rupo
I mean, I think there's two sides to that. I'm not probably best versed at the first one, which is maybe Charlene. I think there's two sides. There's the use of bitcoin, which is by everyday people, just in their daily lives, saving, spending, whatever it is. And then there's the generation of bitcoin around energy. So those two sides of the spectrum. I'll let Charlene speak to the first one, though.
- [52:39]
Preston Pysh
Yeah. So the use of bitcoin, I mean, that's leaning into this idea of policy. It's a patchwork of policy across Africa. Some very restrictive, some very favorable. And sadly, in places like Nigeria, where you have arguably the largest P2P value or at one point, the largest P2P volume, you know, Nigerian, the Central bank of Nigeria, the sec, which is their regulatory body, they have been very aggressive in a very negative way against bitcoin and crypto because a couple years ago they actually blamed it for the devaluation of the Naira. Well, we know that's not the case. Sadly, the currency in Nigeria has been troubled for the past 60 years. It had nothing to do with bitcoin. In fact, because of the, the economic decay of the currency in Nigeria. That is why you saw that peer to peer volume going to bitcoin in Nigeria. Because Nigerians were like, wait, we need better purchasing power, we need a better store of value, we need sound money. And again, not because the government said so, not because a company said so or a foreign body said so, but literally there was a clear and present need for better money. And so I think the regulation is catching up. It's getting better. It's not the best. South Africa is better than others. In South Africa there are businesses that have registered crypto licenses and so businesses can allow for the payment and the sale of bitcoin and the payment of employees in bitcoin. So that's great. But regulation has never led innovation. Regulation has. Like I'm a banker and you know this Preston, you know, innovation regulation has always chased innovation. But I think bitcoin mining changes the model. And when there's money to be made, somehow regulators get it together. And I think this, when you start to make that economic case, it's good business to be a miner and it's a good business to be involved in the bitcoin. Then all of a sudden people start to be flexible. And so I'm very hopeful that as we experience these all time highs as bitcoin is a conversation all around the world, the central banks in Africa will take a second and third look to start thinking about how bitcoin can be a part of their national strategy.
- [54:41]
Eric Hersman
Love that. Eric, anything else to add?
- [54:43]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Man, I think you're right on the last bit. I mean, I've had conversations with three different government representatives in the last week from different countries in Africa who this usually happens as the price goes up. All of a sudden they hear about, you know, bitcoin mining, they realize they have stranded. Power gridless is the one they've heard about. So they contact us. Even though we don't do big power, at least we can give them some insights into why it's worth doing. I think, you know, on the regulatory side for mining though, it's not the same problem. Right. Energy development is energy development. It's been going on for decades anyway and the regulations are there. And if you're doing it unusually, in Kenya it's under 1 megawatt, in Zambia it's under 5 megawatts. There's a lot less red tape to just build energy to do bitcoin mining. It's just data center laws. So the same data center laws that you use for building a large Google or Facebook type data center are now the same things that we follow. So we get type approved on the importation of the bitcoin miner itself and then it's just the basic paperwork. So the regulation isn't the problem. Especially when you're dealing with independent power producers. When you're dealing with government to do the mining, then you have to deal with internal bureaucracies. But it's not as big of a deal when you're building your own energy or you're building on other people's independent power production.
- [55:53]
Eric Hersman
If a person's hearing this and they want to have an impact in Africa, I know the B Trust Foundation, I don't know, do they take donations or is that just kind of Jack and Jay Z's own? Do you know if they take donations at B Trust, you know, I think.
- [56:08]
Preston Pysh
They would be open to. I know the folks there, they would be open, you know and can I just say like what we mentioned at the ABC, they had their first beat rest developer day and they hosted 250 bitcoin core developers. Yeah. So they're training these folks up to hopefully go run bitcoin companies or contribute to bitcoin core. So you know, I would venture to say that they would be very open to taking donations because they are a grant making body but also a training facility.
- [56:34]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Okay, they do. I think just to bring it back to what we started out at the beginning is, you know, we're seeing like the Tondos and the Bitso launching this time. But a lot of that generation of bitcoin software engineering talent has been driven by DTRUST on the continent. Kala was soaked up and became BTRUST builders. We're seeing a few other initiatives but the main thing is that they've put a few years now into a lot of money into giving grants to these young entrepreneurial software engineers. Some of them get jobs at other bitcoin companies and some of them end up building their own apps and services. And so we're starting to see the fruit of that labor. So I think what BTRUST has done and the seeds they've planted will continue to bear fruit for the coming years.
- [57:20]
Eric Hersman
And I see there's a website, BTRUST Tech. We'll have a link to that in the show notes. Guys, thank you so much for making time. This was such an exciting conversation and I think it's just, I don't know, I'm just so excited about this, and I think it's going to be massive in the coming decade or two. I mean, you guys are spearheading so much of this and being able to come on and just kind of illustrate some of these examples is just so illuminating to myself and I'm sure to the people listening. So give people a handoff to your. I know you guys are both active on X, but also give people a handoff. I know. Charlene, your book or anything else that you guys want to highlight. Charlene, go first.
- [57:56]
Preston Pysh
Sure. Please feel free to follow me on Twitter hrfighterrepo. You can also follow the Satoshi Sister Circle. If you're a woman that's starting their journey in bitcoin, we welcome you. We'd love to support your journey. So we're at. At Satscircle. I think it's at Satsircle. If you follow me, you can. You can follow Satoshi Sister Circle. And then, of course, course, if you feel so inclined, check out my book, the Bitcoin Leap. It is available on Amazon.com I think it'd be a great Christmas gift for anyone that's just starting their bitcoin journey and they want to understand the real impact of bitcoin.
- [58:26]
Eric Hersman
Thanks, Eric.
- [58:27]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Yeah. Well, Preston, first, I'm not going to let you off the hook. If you said you're this excited about Africa and bitcoin, then are you going to come next year to the Africa bitcoin conference?
- [58:35]
Eric Hersman
I need to come. I need to come.
- [58:36]
Preston Pysh
I think that's a yes.
- [58:39]
Charlene Fati Rupo
That's not a fitment yet. Well, work on you.
- [58:43]
Eric Hersman
So here's. Here's my challenge. My new year's resolution is I'm gonna, like, dial back the yeses in 2024. That's why I traveled so much in 20.
- [58:53]
Preston Pysh
You say that every year, though, Preston.
- [58:55]
Eric Hersman
I know.
- [58:55]
Preston Pysh
We all say that every year.
- [58:56]
Eric Hersman
I know. And then I listen.
- [58:57]
Charlene Fati Rupo
We're not asking you to travel to a lot of places. We're just asking you to travel to our place.
- [59:01]
Eric Hersman
Honestly, this would be my priority. This would be like one of my priorities for the year, to be quite honest with you. Of anything I've been asked to. This is a priority. Yeah.
- [59:09]
Charlene Fati Rupo
All right, well, Preston, we'll. We'll consider that as we need to do more work to convince you. Okay.
- [59:14]
Eric Hersman
No, that's a yes.
- [59:15]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Okay. Awesome. So, yeah, so I guess for. For Gridless, it's just we're at Gridless Compute on Twitter. That's our one and only public channel. So when we talk about things, that's where you find them out. And then there's a Gamma site as well. It's Gamma Underscore Alliance. That's where you can find news about some of the other members from. You know, we got Sebastian in the Congo, we've got in Nigeria, I got Nemo up in Ethiopia. We've got two new groups. One gas flaring in Nigeria, one doing hydro in Ethiopia. We've got Sid down in. In Zambia. So they're all. They're all in Gamma official. And then, sorry, Gamma Alliance. And I'm personally, I'm just at white African on Twitter. So if you want to find me there, you can.
- [59:57]
Eric Hersman
All right, I'm in. Is it in December next year? When is it?
- [60:00]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Yes, probably November. December. It hasn't been officially set, but yeah, of the year.
- [60:05]
Eric Hersman
Okay, I gotta get.
- [60:06]
Preston Pysh
I haven't set the location too, so the question could be someplace really fun.
- [60:10]
Eric Hersman
Oh, I can't wait. All right, just tell me the dates. I'll get it on the calendar and I will be there, sir.
- [60:15]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Oh, okay. Got it.
- [60:17]
Eric Hersman
All right. Okay.
- [60:18]
Preston Pysh
That's a commitment.
- [60:19]
Eric Hersman
It is.
- [60:19]
Preston Pysh
Yeah.
- [60:19]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Thanks, Preston. We're gonna hold you to it now.
- [60:22]
Eric Hersman
We are. Guys, I really enjoyed this, and I'm just so excited about all of this. For the listener, we'll have all those links and things that they talked about in the show notes. Guys, thanks for making time.
- [60:34]
Charlene Fati Rupo
Thanks for having us, Kristen, thanks for having us.
- [60:36]
Preston Pysh
Take care. Thank you for listening to tip. Make sure to follow bitcoin fundamentals on your favorite podcast app and never miss out on episodes. To access our show notes, transcripts, or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com this show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decision, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.