BTC242: Bitcoin Core Vs. Knots w/ NVK (BItcoin Podcast)

Summary

Podcast Summary: BTC242: Bitcoin Core Vs. Knots with NVK

Podcast Information

• Title: We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network
• Episode: BTC242: Bitcoin Core Vs. Knots with NVK (Bitcoin Podcast)
• Release Date: July 9, 2025
• Hosts: Preston Pysh, Stig Brodersen, William Green, Clay Finck, Kyle Grieve
• Guest: NVK, Founder of Coin Kite and Creator of Coldcard

---

Introduction

In this episode of Bitcoin Fundamentals by The Investor’s Podcast Network, host Preston Pysh engages in an in-depth conversation with NVK, a renowned figure in the Bitcoin hardware space. The discussion delves into the technical and community-driven aspects of Bitcoin, focusing particularly on the ongoing debate between Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin Knots. The episode also touches upon mempool dynamics, miner incentives, and the broader implications for Bitcoin’s scalability and governance.

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Mempool, Fees, and Miner Revenue

Timestamp: 00:20 - 05:36

The conversation begins with an exploration of the mempool—the collection of unconfirmed Bitcoin transactions—and its relationship with transaction fees and miner revenue. Preston raises concerns about the long-term sustainability of fees as the primary revenue source for miners, especially with the advent of layer-two solutions and financial instruments like ETFs providing alternative exposure to Bitcoin.

NVK responds by highlighting the cyclical nature of Bitcoin’s block rewards, which halve approximately every four years. He emphasizes that as Bitcoin’s price potentially doubles with each halving, miners’ revenue from block rewards could remain stable or even increase despite the reduced number of bitcoins they receive. NVK asserts, “if the prices double in three years, miners essentially making the same thing, right?” ([05:12]).

Regarding transaction fees, NVK acknowledges their volatility but remains optimistic about their future role. He explains that while fee spikes are unpredictable, they will continue to support miner revenue. Additionally, with technological advancements like the Lightning Network and other layer-two solutions, the reliance on on-chain transactions—and thus fees—may decrease. However, these solutions aim to settle transactions off-chain, preserving Bitcoin’s role as a store of value.

---

Bitcoin Core vs. Bitcoin Knots Debate

Timestamp: 12:29 - 32:50

The episode transitions into the core debate between Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin Knots, shedding light on the technical and philosophical differences that fuel the contention within the Bitcoin community. Preston seeks to clarify the fundamental distinctions for listeners unfamiliar with the intricacies of Bitcoin’s protocol development.

NVK explains that Bitcoin was never formally defined through a comprehensive specification document. Instead, the original implementation by Satoshi Nakamoto, known as the Satoshi client (later renamed Bitcoin Core), serves as the de facto standard. Over the years, numerous contributors have refactored and improved the Core codebase, but the absence of an official spec has led to varying interpretations and implementations.

The debate intensified with the emergence of Bitcoin Knots, spearheaded by Luke Dasher, who advocates for stricter mempool policies to prevent transaction spam and block bloat. NVK points out that while Bitcoin Core aims to optimize mempool visibility by lifting certain limits (e.g., the OP_RETURN size), Bitcoin Knots maintains these restrictions to allow node operators greater control over the transactions they relay.

A notable moment in the discussion occurs at [28:00], where Preston accurately summarizes the OP_RETURN debate:

"You have this op return and today it's at 83 bytes. This is a policy rule. Bitcoin Core has been enforcing this limit of 83 and anything larger than that is considered spam or something that is being obtuse in a block."

NVK concurs, adding that altering such policy rules is contentious and can lead to fragmentation within the network:

"This just makes bitcoin stronger... because it can't be changed." ([38:46])

---

Consensus Risks and Software Implementation

Timestamp: 13:08 - 27:54

Delving deeper, Preston raises concerns about the potential risks of having two competing Bitcoin software implementations. He questions whether this division could lead to a split in consensus, jeopardizing the network’s integrity.

NVK reassures that as long as both Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin Knots adhere to the hard consensus rules, transactions remain valid across the network. He elaborates that discrepancies primarily lie in the mempool policies, which do not affect the actual consensus. However, the fragmentation in mempool handling can lead to differing views on transaction prioritization and relay policies.

He emphasizes the complexity of Bitcoin’s codebase and the challenges in separating consensus code from wallet functionalities:

"Bitcoin is extremely complicated and there is a lot of nuance to tiny little things and things affect each other." ([18:03])

NVK also discusses ongoing initiatives like Lib Consensus, aimed at modularizing Bitcoin’s consensus rules to facilitate easier upgrades and reduce the risk of hard forks. Despite these efforts, he remains skeptical about the feasibility of completely disentangling consensus from implementation:

"Anything is possible, but it's completely unrealistic." ([27:36])

---

Stakeholder Perspectives and Community Dynamics

Timestamp: 26:35 - 34:14

The discussion shifts to the social and managerial aspects of Bitcoin development. NVK critiques the use of platforms like GitHub for managing Bitcoin Core’s software evolution, citing inadequate moderation tools and the propensity for contentious interactions among contributors.

He underscores the importance of maintaining a unified approach to software updates to preserve network integrity:

"Bitcoin Core satoshi client does not have automatic update on purpose... Agency in the software you choose in Bitcoin... is very important." ([21:25])

NVK also highlights the volunteer-driven nature of Bitcoin Core’s development, which can lead to slow decision-making and resistance to change. This dynamic intensifies as Bitcoin’s value and adoption grow, increasing the stakes and divergent opinions within the community.

---

Discussion on Nostr and Decentralized Identity

Timestamp: 40:00 - 56:20

Transitioning from Bitcoin protocol debates, Preston and NVK explore Nostr, a decentralized social networking protocol. Preston expresses bullish sentiments about Nostr’s potential as an identity layer, going beyond being a mere Twitter replacement.

NVK elaborates on Nostr’s capabilities as a decentralized identity and communication protocol. He emphasizes its role in enabling secure, censorship-resistant interactions without relying on centralized authorities:

"Think about Nostr as like a decentralized non authority way of having identities and address books." ([41:46])

However, NVK acknowledges the challenges in user adoption, particularly the technical barriers faced by everyday users. He compares the early adoption hurdles of Bitcoin to those of Nostr, suggesting that as the technology matures, user experience improvements will facilitate broader acceptance.

Addressing the issue of key management, NVK discusses potential solutions like social recovery mechanisms to enhance usability without compromising security:

"There is a lot more tech that can be built up because the primitives that it's sure for Nostr you can create more clever signing schemas that will give you much better recoverability and resilience." ([50:03])

---

Coldcard and Coin Kite Overview

Timestamp: 51:02 - 57:02

The conversation concludes with a spotlight on Coldcard, NVK’s flagship product, a hardware wallet designed for secure Bitcoin storage. NVK emphasizes Coldcard’s commitment to Bitcoin-only functionality, distinguishing it from other hardware wallets that support multiple cryptocurrencies.

He highlights the device’s features tailored for extreme self-custody, catering to users who prioritize security and long-term storage:

"We are an independent bitcoin only hardware company that's been doing this for literally every and... people who choose personal responsibility, who chose to bury with a lot of agency." ([55:12])

NVK also touches upon Coldcard’s compatibility with other hardware wallets, ensuring that users are not locked into a single vendor’s ecosystem:

"Vendors can any vendor like if you take the seed out of a Coldcard, you can stick it in any other hardware wallet and it's going to work." ([57:02])

---

Conclusions and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: 58:08 - 59:32

In closing, Preston commends NVK for his balanced and insightful perspectives on complex technical debates within the Bitcoin ecosystem. NVK reiterates the importance of robust self-custody solutions and the ongoing evolution of decentralized protocols like Nostr.

He underscores the need for continued innovation and community cohesion to navigate the challenges and opportunities ahead:

"We use technologies that are cross vendor independent... if we disappear tomorrow, you're still safe." ([57:02])

Preston expresses gratitude for NVK’s contributions and looks forward to future discussions, while NVK encourages listeners to explore Coin Kite’s offerings for secure Bitcoin storage.

---

Notable Quotes

• NVK on Miner Revenue Stability: “If the prices double in three years, miners essentially making the same thing, right?” [05:12]
• Preston on OP_RETURN Debate: “You have this op return and today it's at 83 bytes. This is a policy rule...” [28:00]
• NVK on Bitcoin Strength: “This just makes bitcoin stronger... because it can't be changed.” [38:46]
• NVK on Nostr’s Potential: “Think about Nostr as like a decentralized non authority way of having identities and address books.” [41:46]

---

Conclusion

This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of the technical and community-driven dynamics shaping Bitcoin’s future. From the intricacies of miner incentives and mempool policies to the broader implications of decentralized identity protocols like Nostr, NVK offers valuable insights grounded in his extensive experience. Listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the challenges and opportunities within the Bitcoin ecosystem, highlighting the importance of secure self-custody solutions and the need for continued innovation and collaboration.

Transcript

[Preston Pysh]

You're listening to tip.

[Unknown Host]

Hey everyone, welcome to this Wednesday's release of the Bitcoin Fundamentals podcast.

[Unknown Guest]

On today's show, I sit down with.

[Unknown Host]

Nvk, the founder of Coin Kite and the creator of Coldcard for a high signal discussion on the evolving state of Bitcoin. We explore the long term dynamics of the mempool incentives, the growing divide between bitcoin core and bitcoin knots, and what's really at stake with mempool filtering. We also dig into CTV and what it unlocks for bitcoin scalability and the promise and limitations of nostr and why institutional custody is more about legal architecture than technical constraints. All right, so with all of that said, let's jump right into this interview with the one and only Mr. NVK.

[Preston Pysh]

Celebrating 10 years, you are listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by the Investors Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pysch.

[Unknown Host]

Hey everyone, welcome to the show. I'm here with the one and only NVK repeat guest, super technical and smart individual with anything to do with bitcoin. Welcome to the show nvk.

[NVK]

Hey Preston, thanks for having me back.

[Unknown Host]

So here's where I want to start and I think it's in an area that many probably aren't expecting. And it's just really kind of talking about the mempool, it's talking about fees and it's talking about the long term viability of fees taking over and really kind of providing the revenue for miners long term in the face of so much happening on, call it layer twos or ETFs and basically everybody choosing these surrogate holding entities for how they get exposure to bitcoin. What are your thoughts on this? Is it something we should be concerned with? What are your thoughts here?

[NVK]

I mean, you know, like most things in life number go up fixes, almost everything.

[Unknown Host]

That's true. Okay, keep going.

[NVK]

Because think about it this way. If you look at the block rewards, not the fees, just the block reward today, it's going to half again in what, three and a half or three years from now. Yeah, kind of lost track. So if the prices double in three years, miners essentially making the same thing, right? Just block reward. I think it's safe to say that they could probably be double in three, four years from now. So they'd be making about the same. So there is that on the block reward. I mean like there is enough there, at least for a while where we're going to have enough in block reward. Now the fee space is super tricky, right? Because I Think it's always going to be completely sort of like random in terms of fee spikes because you're always going to have new sort of technology out there that leverages bitcoin in ways that we may not want or want or whatever. You go on the monetary, non monetary use of bitcoin, right. It's still a database out there in the network that is like its great majority use is for monetary purposes, which should be really. But anyways, so let's say that we do have some fee spikes here and there. I mean that does help feed miners as well, but I don't think they can plan for that. I do believe though that the trend is very clear. We're not going to see base layer being packed again. You know, it's still going to be probably more than what we have right now. Right now it can practically do one set V by. Yeah, again.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

And I still think we're going to have moments like this throughout, like ever in bitcoin. But the reality is, you know, like a UTXO is just going to continually be more and it's going to be less necessary to move the ownership of that UTXO on chain as people realize that bitcoin is a great store of value and they can use other layers to settle or quasi settle.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

And save on fees. So for example, lightning, right? Like you can do a lot of back and forth on lightning before you decide to settle. The same is true for ARK what's coming and the same is true for coinbacked equities.

[Unknown Participant]

Right?

[NVK]

I mean like you can almost think that's another layer in bitcoin.

[Unknown Host]

I want to get to the ARK comment, but before we do that, I'm just, I'm trying to think 20 years from now, are we still going to see mempools that are 1sat per VB and if so, is that an issue? I guess is really the question.

[NVK]

I don't think it's an issue because if the price goes up, the reward that is a lot less in terms of bitcoin units is still going to be a lot more in dollar yen.

[Unknown Host]

So you're saying the block reward alone because you're getting this doubling, you know, and if, let's just say you take Saylor's model as far as like the price action and the appreciation over the next 10 to 20 years, you're saying that even though that block reward is still minuscule, it is enough because of the really quick math that you explained is all it has to do is go up by double Every four years. As far as the price.

[NVK]

Oh, I mean, yes. And there is more to this.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

Because you know, the fees, bitcoin fees are also bitcoin unit based. They are not dollar based.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

So even if people are transacting a lot less on chain.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

Because they don't want to spend Those very expensive UTXOs in fees, those fees might still economically suffice because mining is USD denominated.

[Unknown Host]

Mm.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

Because mining users has to pay electricity in dollars, it has to pay rent in dollars, it has to pay for hardware gear in dollars. Employee salaries are still denominated in dollars. So I think there is a case for that. I mean I can't predict the future. You know, I know for a fact that like, I mean, not for a fact, but I, I have a very strong belief that we're not going to be changing the bitcoin cap to inflate so that we can pay miners. Yeah, very likely to happen. And if that didn't happen, I dumped my bitcoin, which I have not. But I would dump it if I had any.

[Unknown Host]

And you got a smile out of me on that one. Go ahead.

[NVK]

Yeah, I know. I think people worry too much about these issues that are resolvable by number. Go up.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

You know, and it's the like, seriously, if bitcoin is not double in 20 years today's price. I mean the experiment likely failed.

[Unknown Host]

I mean Sailor talks about this from time to time where he's like the bigger concern that I have is people really campaigning for this idea of adjusting anything and not just letting the fundamental. He describes it almost like physics. You know, if we changed how much gravity there was that we were experiencing here on Earth, like you're gonna wreck havoc in.

[NVK]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

I mean these are very.

[NVK]

How call it. It's a very sensitive formula.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

Like we have a literal formula for how bitcoin works. And if you change one variable, everything the system changes.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

Yeah, it's a problem. Segwit changed a little bit of that formula with the discount for the data. That's prunable. And that did change bitcoin economics a bit when or not it did.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

If we had not increased the block size, you know, miners would be making more now in fees. Maybe. Yeah, maybe not. It's hard to know. You can't apply central planning. This is the cars that we were dealt. Now let's just use the cards that we were dealt in the best way we can. I do like his analogy where it is not moral or ethical to change the rules when the game already started. I think that's a very good way of framing this. Some of these issues. That's not to say that we can't upgrade bitcoin with other technical necessities, for example covenants, right? Aside from making maybe people lose more bitcoin in case they do it wrong because then they'll have proof of work, which is great for everybody. Really. There is no economical change to the bitcoin model.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

It just means that now bitcoin is. If we do it right, we can now create vaults that are protected by the bitcoin the same way that the bitcoin units are protected by bitcoin.

[Unknown Host]

I want to come back to this one as well, but we need to frame it up a little bit more for the listener. Before we do that, let's take a.

[NVK]

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[NVK]

All right, back to the show.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so on this idea of not changing the fundamental units or incentives inside of Bitcoin, there is a massive debate for people that are really dialed into this stuff. I think for people on the fringe, they have no idea that this debate's even happening. But for people that are really dialed in, this debate between bitcoin core and bitcoin knots is just somewhat crazy right now as far as the conversations online. And I think for casual observers or people that own bitcoin as an ETF or whatever, they don't even realize that this discussion is taking place. Can you.

[NVK]

Good thing.

[Unknown Host]

Which is probably a good thing. Well, help explain this, like, in a really, really basic level. First of all, explain what bitcoin core is and what they do. And then let's talk about just kind of like what has materialized as far as the debate. And then third, I really want to try to talk about, is there risks here from a consensus standpoint? Is there a risk that we have two competing software versions cropping up? Let's first just frame it for the audience. You're very good at framing things and making it simple for the casual listener. So frame this up for them.

[NVK]

Okay, so what is bitcoin, right, like, in terms of technically rule set? Bitcoin was never defined in a spec document. Like most standard, they have a spec document.

[Unknown Host]

You're saying in the white paper?

[NVK]

Yeah, the white paper doesn't define bitcoin minutia.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

When you build technology, especially protocol technology, you go out there and you write a huge spec book. Like, it's like literal book that if you go from spec to software, you can rebuild the protocol.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

Like, you don't need software to begin with. You just need the back book.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[NVK]

In bitcoin, we didn't have that. What we had was the satoshi client, which is the original bitcoin client. It got renamed to bitcoin core, but it really is the satoshi client. The original bitcoin client.

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[NVK]

There was a software that Satoshi put up and it was a bit macaroni code. It's like a single guy just getting at it. There was no real spec for it.

[Unknown Guest]

And I've heard.

[Unknown Host]

I heard Jeff Garzick say this many years ago. People have their opinion on Jeff, but he said. He said many years ago that when he first saw the code, he was like, wow, this is a disaster. It seems like you kind of have a similar. And I see.

[NVK]

We saw the code the first time. We're like, no. Like, this is brutal.

[Unknown Host]

Really? So that was your same opinion?

[NVK]

Yeah. You know, the beauty of bitcoin is that the concept of it, right? Like the economical formula and the game theory, adjustment, the game and all this little sort of the game theory. Everything that defines a bitcoin is just conceptually.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

It is absolutely beautiful and brilliant.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

That there was satoshis through brilliancy.

[Unknown Participant]

Right?

Yeah.

[NVK]

His actual cold implementation. I mean, it's pretty brutal.

[Unknown Host]

I've heard this.

[NVK]

The original Satoshi Clay poker in it. Like the beginning stubs for a poker client, for example.

[Unknown Host]

Is this why we have 21?

[NVK]

Who knows?

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

But maybe.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

So like we have this brilliant concept.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

You know, I'm sure if you got Einstein right, like after he figured out the concept of emc square.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

Like if he tried to write a program that then goes and make like atomic model stimulations, it would be code.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

Like, it's okay, we already done enough. It's amazing.

[Unknown Host]

Do you think you nvk. Do you think that this points more to this being an individual as opposed to a group because of the code looking like this?

[NVK]

No, I mean, like, you can also make the case that the group decided to call this extremely poorly with Windows just to make a point by design discovered. Yeah. I mean, like, it's one of those rabbit holes, if you ask me. I believe satoshi was probably a person who lived outside of the law, maybe had its bumps with the deep state. So like it was somebody who deeply understood what they were doing, how the world really works.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Right. It's a great way to put it.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

And remember, like, when you get into like the very lower levels and layers of society and state actors and things, like, lawlessness is a lot more prevalent. You know what I mean? How things are done than people think that they are.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

Like it's from a global point of view, you're saying.

[NVK]

Yeah, no, but even government, I mean, I remember like the Navy worked on Thor and they funded Thor. But that's where the dark markets are. Right. Like when you get to peak engineering, there's a lot of like people who do illegal because they understand the world. There's a lot of people who are just geniuses. It's like a big mess. That's just a tangent there. But the point is the software was not ideal and it was like extremely redone through the years. Refactored.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

From a lot of different engineers that.

[NVK]

Were like thousands, thousands of people have worked on Bitcoin core. There were different sort of like quote unquote leaders. There were a lot of leaders. There were played heroes. Like the drama is plentiful and it's an amazing story of 16 years of turnover.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

But at one point, I can't remember, it was just before Gavin maybe, which was the guy that Satoshi essentially like he did a bit of like a role of leadership too.

[Unknown Host]

This is Gavin that you're referring to for people listening.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

He might have been Mike Hearn, which was a spook, allegedly.

[Unknown Host]

Well, Mike was out of Google, right?

[NVK]

Yes. I think the story goes that he was the guy who allegedly put the back door on Google, but that's a different story. I don't want to let people go dive into that one. But anyways, the point is, around that time it was suggested that we split bitcoin core Bitcoin into two parts. The wallet part.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

And the consensus code part. And the consensus code part was going to be called Bitcoin core. It is very common to have the core part of software being the part that's transportable between different clients and things. It didn't transpire much that way just because it's the monumental task. We're still working on it. There is a few different initiatives on working on that. And it became one of those things is like the software is the spec and the spec is the software.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

It's very hard to move away from that. Bitcoin, although simple, is extremely complicated and there is a lot of nuance to tiny little things and things affect each other. So anyways, so we got to this name called Bitcoin Core. And instead of just Bitcoin and Bitcoin core just meant to be the main sort of implementation of Bitcoin, which is really the direct, the standard derivative of the Satoshi coin. And I mean not even derivative, really direct. It's just. It was the same code base just being worked on now.

[Unknown Host]

At what point did Luke come into the timeline? Because this is important.

[NVK]

It was around earlier. Extremely early. Extremely early.

[Unknown Host]

I can't remember like 2010 early I.

[NVK]

Allegiance was the name of his mining.

[Unknown Host]

Pool, which was the first. Was it the first mining pool?

[Unknown Guest]

Was that right?

[Unknown Host]

For people listening, we're talking about Luke Dasher. And the reason that I bring up Luke and why it's important is because he's the one that's really spearheading the whole bitcoin knots which is the.

[NVK]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

So competition.

[NVK]

Yeah. Remember this? Funny. He has a history of wanting to do filters look when look essentially fork bitcoin core but remain. He kept it in consensus with bitcoin.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

So if you ran not you don't fall off consensus. At least for now. You never know. And I remember he had.

[Unknown Host]

And that's you never know.

[NVK]

Blacklisting for Satoshi dies. There was a bunch of stuff but.

[Unknown Host]

Nvk I really want to foot Stomp that comment right there. Because that's where we're really kind of going with the third part of the question, which is, is there a risk in there being two competing.

[NVK]

Oh, there is always a risk. Yeah. Because remember the SPAC of Bitcoin is the software. As long as if you don't change anything that is consensus, you don't fork. Even if you decided to make your software pink blue, it doesn't matter.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

As long as the transactions are valid and you're validating transactions that get mined, you should be good. So I doubt that they would choose to make changes that could make them fork out because like reality is the majority of the economic actors in Bitcoin, economic nodes really, so large nodes that are validating transactions and have lots of coins and you know, they are all running a version of or a lot of miners do run patched core versions because they have different needs, especially around Mempool policy array.

[Unknown Host]

So that's not something I was aware of. Okay, explain that a little bit more.

[NVK]

Well, you can go even from basics. Right. Like, I mean Bitcoin core has a limit on the size of the mempool that shows.

[Unknown Host]

Right.

[NVK]

Like, and if you're a minor you might want to expand. Mm. Even more stuff in it just have more computational power.

[Unknown Host]

So they're running like basically their own version of Core, but just allows them to kind of see the mempool.

[NVK]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Larger level.

[NVK]

Okay. You know, from time to time people will create a transaction that it's not really valid on the core min pool, but it is valid in a block. Things happen. I don't have the examples in front of me, but the point is like there is some. As long as the transactions are valid on a block, you're pretty much good. Even if you deviate on how you do little thing.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

And that's sort of like where it goes. I mean, and then you have all the soft policies, right. Like all the standard ness as they call it. And that's where there's a lot of disagreement. And you know, it's funny that like the disagreement can happen because these are not consensus hard consensus rules.

[Unknown Host]

Which goes back to your original comment that there was never a spec sheet that went out with the protocol.

[NVK]

Yes.

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[NVK]

But like there's been a lot of people who are very smart who made the software a lot better. Where from your Mempool we have a better view of the. That's by the way, the argument that Core has for some of the removal of the operator limit, things like that is that like their argument is that you get a better view of all the transactions in the mempool so you can calculate feeds better for example and you need disincentivize centralization, right? But then the other side of the argument is that you would incentivize people to make non monetary transactions of Bitcoin and incentivize them to bloat the network with large up returns. But up returns are prunable on the other side. Like it's a bit of a waste of time to fight too much over the minutiae on this. I think the biggest problem right now is this is more like a meta comment is that like see like the people who work on Bitcoin Core are volunteers, right? And you know, they're humans people, humans love to create groups and people group themselves based on their preferences and then they tend to go in a certain orthodoxy together, right? Like I mean that's the most human behavior. And Bitcoin core is mostly managed from a software management perspective on GitHub and GitHub bought by Microsoft. It is a terrible place for you to manage software. That is contentious, right? And mind you like, the more valuable Bitcoin becomes, the more contention there's going to be even the smallest changes, right? Because it affects everybody's bank. So everybody might have an opinion. But the thing is Bitcoin core satoshi client does not have automatic update on purpose. And if there ever is, that is when you stop updating is before you have auto updates. That's when you break out the pitchfork. The auto updates is a form of like user management in a way, right? Like now if we had software updates, Core could make changes that the network would take up without being fully agent around it, right? Agency in the software you choose in Bitcoin or the update you choose in Bitcoin is very important because then people cannot take you without your sort of explicit approval or knowledge into forks that may not be good like say for example inflation or something, right? The point there I guess is that core this group, the current version of the group, because the group changes all the time too. And it's a lot of people and you know, there's like the maintainer sub maintainers, that relationship also changes all the time. It does have a monopoly on the distribution of the bitcoin code, right? Like the majority of the Bitcoin code is core, especially when it comes to economic actors and you know, when they choose to deploy a change, even if it's standard, so non hard consensus rules, even if they don't Push updates as automatic updates. Like it still causes the network to probably adopt their version.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

So they do have power and with power comes a lot from intensive. So personally I think we're starting to get to a point where maybe expediting the division of the wallet software from the consensus part of Core may be extra important. And then incentivizing people to maybe have their own versions, like make more versions of Core that try to not touch the consensus code important.

[Unknown Host]

This is really. So basically you're getting back to the spec sheet is like let's break this out, let's all agree on what those specs are and then on the areas that aren't risked to consensus long term, then let people build their own versions of.

[NVK]

Exactly. And then if you over filter it just means you're going to have a very poor view of the menpool.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

But then you know, maybe you're just have a lot of social pool and you can sort of incentivize people to run some filters that may be better for the Bitcoin, you know, block bloat or whatever. Like these things become very loosey goosey because again they're not hard. Consensus.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

And if you overdo something then you just fall off in a way you can think about.

[Unknown Host]

Do you think that we could get agreement on what those technical specs are to put in a nice neat order and then allow. Because it seems like right now that wouldn't be the case.

[NVK]

It just is just too big. Like the consensus part is just too big. So yes, anything is possible, but it's completely unrealistic. So there is a project called Lib Consensus and who is working on the. I think it's a charlatan is working on that.

[Unknown Host]

Like, like Lib, like you would put a lid on it.

[NVK]

No, Lib like library.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, okay.

[NVK]

Lib, yeah. So Lib consensus. And the goal of that project is to separate the consensus code from which is the original core concept.

[Unknown Host]

Interesting. Hey, I want to try to frame this rules because we talked a little about a lot of different things here, a lot. And I want you to correct me if I'm saying any of this wrong, but the debate, you know, if I was going to really break it down simply, you have this op return and today it's at 83 bytes. This is a policy rule. Bitcoin Core has been enforcing this limit of 83 and anything larger than that is considered spam or something that is being obtuse in a block. And Core has come out and says we're just going to lift this. And if you want to create mammoth transaction and there's probably a bunch of JPEGs or whatever in that block, but you're willing to pay the high fee, then we're just going to let the fee market figure out what should go into the next block and what shouldn't, and we're just going to lift this 83 limit. Did I say something wrong there?

[NVK]

No, no, no, that's correct. It's just. I think there's just two little things that are important on that. One is that operators are printable. So that means you can remove them from your node. So you don't have to store them, you do have to process them, but you don't have to store them.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. Which is important. And the reason why this is important is because if you don't want to store four megabytes of somebody's JPEG on your node, you can basically extract that out and you don't have to store it and it's not going to take up all the memory and. Correct.

[NVK]

Okay, correct.

[Unknown Host]

Keep going. What was the second point?

[NVK]

Sorry, I forgot.

[Unknown Host]

Oh man, I messed you up. I'm sorry. When I start talking, I guess it'll. It'll pop in your head. Let me.

[NVK]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

So the thing that Luke is really getting behind with bitcoin knots is he saying, no, this 83 byte limit still needs to be in place. And this is here for a reason. And you know, if people are running a node like myself and many others, that we have 20,000 plus people running their nodes, if they don't want to relay a transaction of a bunch of JPEGs, they don't have to relay it. In this like gossip network of these are the transactions that are trying to get into the mempool. So if somebody's trying to put JPEGs in there, and I'm running my own hardware, my own node that I paid for and I'm spending electricity to run, if I don't want to relay these transactions that are over that, well, then now I have the ability to do that. And Core is kind of removing. My understanding is that CORE is removing that ability for me to filter transactions that are over this 83 bit limit, which is a somewhat arbitrary limit. But it's the.

[NVK]

Well, the limit came in way back then because there were issues with very unsavory things that could be put into bitcoin blocks when bitcoin was very small. And that could have been an excuse to shut it down.

[Unknown Host]

And I think we know where you're going with that.

[NVK]

Yeah, yeah. So nowadays it doesn't really matter. I'm sure people put stuff that shouldn't be there anyways, but you can't turn it off anymore. It's like, no, it's the blockchain of the Bitcoin. Microstrategy owns up. Yeah, you know, like it's a different environment. I'm not a huge fan of removing that limit. I'm not sure it's a great use of time.

[Unknown Host]

Well, this is my point on it. MVK is why take that optionality away from me as a person who's running a node, if I want to limit it, I should be able to. If I want to open it up and allow whatever to be put in there, then you should have that option as a person who's choosing to run the hardware and the software that you paid for.

[NVK]

I mean, the argument as I understand is that because they're the reference implementation, they're trying to optimize for maximum visibility of the mempool and that includes transactions you may not like. So it's just that like, okay, this is the reference. So let's make sure that if you're running the reference implementation, you can see all the transactions, including the ones that you don't want to see happen. Because like reality is for literally ever, miners have taken out of, bound or out of bam full direct transactions from people to mine. It's like trying to change the master branch to like main branch on GitHub because it's like it's not woke up to say master branch or something. It really just riled up all sides for no reason where, you know, we should be arguing about like more interesting things.

[Unknown Host]

Well, I definitely agree with that point that there's other things that are more important to be discussing. I think the issue and why this turned into such a big deal is because of it was the method that Core used to roll it out. Would you agree with that? It was the method at which core it was terrible.

[NVK]

It was very poorly managed. That GitHub issue it all listed. It's like I don't. I kind of feel for them too, because managing that, like managing GitHub and seeing a bunch of people like posting AI like aid answers to fight on that thread was very, very. I do pull stuff too. On codecard we close the issues because we just don't have patience to deal with like a lot of trolling. But again, it's like the reason why Bitcoin core was so sort of like respected and so above. It's because they always managed to be above it all. Orion, which was one of the main maintainers prior to now, always managed to remain fully impartial, try to just keep things open and sort of just left people like fired out on threads and things. Moderation again, I was saying GitHub has very poor moderation tools, tools for open source software. But at the same time like the way the, like you almost feel like a troll opening the PR to the way that the PR was open. It was very poorly done. Like everything around this issue was poor management, poor behavior by all sides, just all overall garbage. So you know you end up at the place you're at with people screaming at each other on Twitter. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

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[Unknown Host]

Let's address this right now. From your point of view, is this a long term concern? So you have people, they hear that last half hour of us talking about this and all they really want to know is is this an issue?

[NVK]

It's not. No, it's not. None of this is do or die from bitcoin.

[Unknown Host]

It's just how can we move as a community? I think for me I'm looking at, I'm saying how can we move forward as a community in a more constructive way, in a more thoughtful way and make sure that we don't destroy the consensus that already exists on this protocol.

[NVK]

No, see, like this is the thing, I'm on the other side of this. People should be even more against each other. I just don't want to see the discussion. But bitcoin game theory is amazing for that. The more people don't like each other, the more bitcoin doesn't change. You're going to get Flare ups on the non consensus code, like the upper turn size filter, something like that. But realistically speaking, this just makes bitcoin stronger.

[Unknown Host]

Because it can't be changed, is your point.

[NVK]

Yeah, because it's going to be even harder to make any changes.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

Because now you have even more people who disagree, more people who don't trust each other. So there is more scrutiny. It was amazing. Like, you want bitcoin to be as adversarial as possible, which is interesting.

[Unknown Host]

Right? That's like, what other thing exists in the world that that would be? The scenario of more disagreement leads to stronger entrenchment of the protocol.

[NVK]

Right. You know, it's unpleasant and I hope that people can keep the discourse to a more polite and gentleman like discussion. You don't have to go tell people to do something to a goat. But in all scrutiny, adversarialness, these are all like parts of the bitcoin game theory. So it's okay. I think when people see people disagreeing around bitcoin, it means that's a good thing. There is like, what could kill bitcoin is apathy. Let's put it this way. If there is full apathy, bitcoin dies. Because then people just take bitcoin in whatever direction is useful to them, like democracy kind of thing, and then it gets gamed out and then it dies. Right now if people continue just having very fervor orthodoxies around bitcoin and their nodes, it's great.

[Unknown Host]

All right, let's move on. Let's talk about Noster. You and I are hardcore primal client users and promoters and we love it. And I am just very bullish on Noster. I'm curious to hear, because I haven't had this conversation with you for a while. I'm kind of curious your thoughts on the status of Noster, where it's at right now, where you kind of see it going, and maybe most importantly, your description of what is it? Because I think people looking at it today would say, oh, it's a replacement for Twitter. It's decentralized social media. But my opinion, and I suspect you agree with me on this, is that it's something way bigger than that. It's identity layer, a decentralized identity layer. And so what in the world does that mean? Give us your thoughts.

[NVK]

I personally don't like Dossier for identity in terms of like logging in to sites and things, because it links your identity to login sites and things. But I love it as a way to find identities.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

So you can find coordination like an address book that nobody controls. Because email is kind of an address book. But you know, email depends on domains. Domains are centralized. You can lose your domain, Right. But nobody can take away your private keys, your Noster private keys, unless you lose them. So it's super cool that way. Great way to find people. There is like a lot of work being done so that you can find privacy in the interaction between your identity and maybe services. Then the login with NOSTR will become great. Just think about NOSTR as like a decentralized non authority way of having identities and address books.

[Unknown Participant]

Right?

[NVK]

So you can send payments to each other, you can send messages to each other. AIs can have their own private key pair. So you can have AI agents that can talk to each other, they can find each other and that sort of opens this huge design space for everything that is on the Internet. It sounds a little sort of out there, but that's almost everything that's on the Internet could leverage NOSTR in that sense. So it really is just an open protocol for communication.

[Unknown Host]

Are you suggesting that AIs wouldn't be able to get around that in some other way? Like they'd have to use a NOSTR decentralized protocol to have that identity?

[NVK]

They could use a centralized system too, as they do now. But then again they're depending. First of all, they're using a design space that was not designed for them to use it in that way.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

So like the Internet, the way is designed today, the protocols that we have, like email, HTTP and those things, they're not natural for proper payments, for AI to talk to each other and all that stuff.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

It's very inefficient. Nostr on the other hand is like, you know, you have this essentially signed events, signed messages with public key cryptography that are extremely efficient for this kind of behavior.

[Unknown Host]

And they're going to be smart enough to understand the value prop of.

[NVK]

Exactly, yeah, exactly.

[Unknown Participant]

Right, yeah.

[NVK]

And then from the user perspective too, I mean like you gained the fact that nobody can fake with an AI or Photoshop your Noster tweet, Right? Like which is the rage now.

[Unknown Host]

I mean like it's clearly big deal. Yeah, to the point that I just said, I think that's one of the biggest hang ups that we have today on NOSTR is people just don't understand the value prop. I mean we're having a hard enough time getting people to understand decentralized money, let alone decentralized speech and identity.

[NVK]

I mean this takes time. Like it took 16 years for Bitcoin to be 100,000 times more than $1. It took 12 years for public traded companies to publicly talk about their bitcoin pile. It takes time. And when you look at these things in the timescale that human altering technologies normally have, it still has been nothing, right. I feel like gold had 5,000 years.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah, yeah.

[NVK]

And the printing press had what like 200 now? 300 now, no more. When Gutenberg is it 1200 anyways, long time. The point is things take time, right? And we're all like the people who understand these things deeply are anxious to have everybody else understand. And the people who don't understand it is like what do I care? Like my life works, right? So it takes time for these two things to covert and converge. But we are moving, right? Like Nostra comes in waves the same way that bitcoin price for example does. Because it's the adoption wave, right. And stays true for bitcoin. It's an adoption wave, not the value it's moving. I mean we have then like layer 3 Bitcoin payment systems that leverage Noster natively, like Kashu tokens and you know, so named fatty. All these other technologies for payments that do, they wouldn't work as well on Twitter, right. Unless Twitter integrates them. But like on Noster, you don't need permission for that, right. You can leverage Noster now, you have payments, you can tip people.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

You can do all these things. So as the build out happen or very user friendly, obvious value propositions.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

People will start migrating over. Right. Like for example, Noster long term forms. Sorry, long term content. You know, it's like it's already better than substack, you know, and you can get tipped and you're not blocked by Twitter.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Which is kind of a big deal.

[NVK]

I.

[Unknown Host]

It's just, it's just hard getting people to understand the value prop. It really is. I was in South Korea recently and there was a friend that we introduced to Nostr via Primal and they got onboarded. They actually got a lot of followers and like most things they just kind of didn't pay attention to it for a little bit because they had some people help them get all set up. And of course they lost their private key to their Noster and they were asking me, they're like okay, so like who's the admin that I need to talk to get my access back? And I looked at the person, I was like, well it doesn't work like that. It's gone forever. And then they were like, Well, I have 5,000 followers or whatever. On Nostra, I was like, yeah, well, you'll never make another post again because it's, like, gone.

[NVK]

It's very common for early adopters to get burned, right? Like, the amount of people who lost bitcoin in the very early days, People who bought, like, literally 100,000 bitcoins for, like, nothing.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

For 100 bucks. They lost coins because the tools in the early days of bitcoin were very poor. They gave poor experiences, and a lot of people don't come back. So there is this turnover that happens in early stages of technology. People just get burned by this technology. They don't want to come back. So we don't depend on them. I mean, like, bitcoin has moved on. Even if those people don't like bitcoin because they lost bitcoin is in a pile of garbage or something.

[Unknown Host]

But so mvk, to this point, I'm looking at it and, like, you're an engineer, You're a person who understands things technically at a level that, you know, you're the.01 percentile in the world. I come with an engineering background. Some of this stuff is somewhat innate to us. We just kind of wrap our head around it quicker because of how we're wired.

[Unknown Guest]

Most of the public isn't, you know.

[Unknown Host]

Maybe they're in marketing, maybe they're in whatever, and they just don't have that technical foundation. And so when they come across something like this and the app says, oh, remember these keys? They're like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it. Because they're used to just how they've interacted with everything else on the planet, which is I can always be bailed out by some administrator to save me. And I think that this. I don't know, I think that this is a way bigger deal and a bigger hurdle for us when it comes to Noster, specifically over bitcoin. I think with bitcoin, people know it's money and that they probably need to pay a higher level of attention to it. But, like, when it comes to nostr, I'm just more concerned as to that variable. And that roadblock is just the competent, the technical competence of the everyday person. And I'm saying this on the back of just coming from the dmv, Right. I literally was at the DMV for two hours this morning.

[NVK]

Okay, you're a little jaded then. I think, listen, it's not a matter of, like, being smart, not being smart, just having, like, if you want to be an early adopter, you Just have to have higher pain tolerance. We don't have to onboard the normies yet the same way we didn't have to in the bitcoin. The early days. People will come as the value proposition is high enough for the level of pain that they will have to endure. It's just the nature of new technology. But the thing is like the change is massive. Like I lost my first master private key that I used for the whole first year. That's gone. And then, you know, and then I semi lost my, my current key, but then it was reversible. But the point is that the tools were very rudimentary then. They're much better now. And if you do go to like, I mean Primo is the only tool that I would recommend to an army. It's like if you go to Primal and you create an account there, the chances of you losing your keys are pretty low. They're not zero, but they're pretty low. And it's going to get better.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

Like once we have better signing schemas or social recovery, whatever is the solution.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

It gets better to that point. May never be as good as Twitter in terms of recovery because you own your keys. The same with bitcoin.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Like there's social recovery.

[Unknown Guest]

Some of the ideas that you've seen.

[Unknown Host]

Kind of born in bitcoin that I think you would strongly argue are terrible ways to secure your keys. Might act, and I'm being very serious, might actually be really good methods for securing keys on something like Nostr where the level of. Would you agree with that?

[NVK]

The value prop is a little different because the problem is a little different. Right.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

You're trying to maintain access to your identity.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

Like if you leak your bitcoin, you can't just create the new one.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

So it is different in that sense.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

So the solutions will vary a little bit more. And I think maybe social recovery might be a great solution for it. But there is more to this. Like, I mean there's a lot more tech that can be built up because the primitives that it's sure for Noster you can create more clever signing schemas that will give you much better recoverability and resilience. But it takes time.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

For people that are hearing this conversation, I think it is time for you to try it out because it is really different than what it was call it a year ago or definitely two years ago on Nostr. And obviously we're very biased, we are advisors with Primal. But I think if you would download the app and Try it out. I think you're going to be really impressed with how simple how you basically have a bitcoin wallet right there embedded into the social network and ability to just start up conversations and zap people with bitcoin is like no other.

[NVK]

I think the point is ability wise or like I cannot tell if I'm on Twitter or primal anymore on my phone. I get confused.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Same.

[NVK]

And then we're still in this phase of development. We're sort of trying to emulate the things we had before where like I think things are going forward are going to become more interesting where you're doing things that were just not done before. I'm often looking for the zap button on Twitter.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[NVK]

It pisses me off that I cannot like send some stats to somebody on Twitter that said something funny or something useful to me.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

So I think monetization is like noster with bitcoin is just so far ahead of like what centralized systems can do that. Like they just can't compete.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

I mean I know when people share an interview that I did, I almost always zap them a dollar or whatever just because I appreciate them sharing the content. Right. Like it's a value add for me to have people out there sharing the content and spreading the things that I'm talking about. And I don't know, long term I'm very bullish on this. I just don't understand the timeline of adoption and I just think that it's. I don't know, it's hard to really kind of wrap my head around but really enjoyed hearing your comments on that. So people who don't know who you are, you are one of the best hardware developers when it comes to bitcoin hardware wallets on the planet. Tell people a little bit about cold card. Tell them if you have anything like roadmap wise like what you see moving forward and kind of where how you see the space developing or anything else that you really want to talk about with respect to.

[NVK]

Thanks for that. I think like a big difference between us and all the other how do. There's a lot of very good stuff out there. Like the space is developed quite a lot is that we are an independent bitcoin only hardware company that's been doing this for literally ever and. And we use bitcoin. You know, I know it sounds crazy but like so many companies out there they just have fiat people running the company and doing those things. I think the reason why the products that we make are the way they are is because it's well used for so long by some people who actually use bitcoin. And we have this sort of like very clear, at least to us, path on how this thing plays out, right. We really think that the sort of the proverbial grandma that's going to use bitcoin on chain is like idiotic to say the least. Because there's not enough sats for everybody, right? Like there's only 2.1 quadrillion stocks and there is 8 billion people in the world. And wealth distribution is a basis point now and maybe a hundred times better and that's still 1%. And then when you break that down, there's just not enough tax. So what happens then is that the majority of the people holding on chain bitcoin are going to be people who chose personal responsibility, who chose to bury with a lot of agency to do this, right? To have their metal plate stamp that seed down and want to pass that on to their kids and function in that sort of extreme self custody environment. Things are a lot easier now. You know, you tap here, you scan that and transaction goes away. But the thinking is from this extreme perspective, it's not different than like even people who have a lot of money and don't believe in gold as a medium, exchange still has like a decent amount of gold in a vault somewhere in like physical, right? And that is the perspective that like humans have had with all their money than stores of value throughout like millennia, right? There's the stuff that is trendy today, there is the stuff that is like I needed in case of emergency and then there is sort of like the balance and in between of that, right? So we built the products for the people who need to transact in a few different ways, right. But mostly focused on this sort of extremely self sovereign self custody of that bitcoin. They own that bitcoin. They don't leak privacy if they do it right. And it's a much better place to be in. And if they can just sit this out, they will see a lot of returns on that bitcoin hopefully.

[Unknown Participant]

Right?

[NVK]

That's the plan. Now what happens is like can my grandma use this? Yes. Like I've tested totally usable, but it's not designed for grandma. And I think there's a lot of distraction in the market because when you choose to make something very secure, there will be trade off, right? And I think those trade offs are necessary because again, if you have just a thousand bucks worth of bitcoin, just keep it on an app. There is a million apps that are Amazing. Many of them are fully self sovereign, whatever. But you don't need to buy stuff to store that and you can progress. And the point that don't have this sort of paralysis where you don't go and buy the bitcoin and then slowly get it out of the exchange, learn how to do it and move it that way. But realistically, like we were talking about the base layer not having transactions.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

Is that, you know, the majority of the people are going to be on lightning, are going to be on layer three, layer four, layer fives, whatever.

[Unknown Participant]

Right.

[NVK]

They're not going to be storing Bitcoin in their hardware. That's going to be a niche market.

[Unknown Participant]

Yeah.

[NVK]

That we hope to address it very well. But that is the main sort of difference there.

[Unknown Host]

Do you try to cater to the institutions and how they're going about the self custody as far as the signing devices or is it much more retail based? I'm just kind of curious on that.

[NVK]

So there are exchanges, they use our devices as part of their.

[Unknown Host]

What a compliment, by the way. Sig.

[NVK]

Yeah, our devices are well used by institutions using collaborative multisig. There is institutions will make it with just cold card forums. There is a lot of large holders out there that use passphrase with single sig. There is a place for everything. We don't focus on people who need normally qualified custodians because their needs are of a legal nature, not of a technical nature.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that's a great way to frame it. Yeah, yeah.

[NVK]

So even though there are some qualified custodians that do use some of our technology, the point is when say MicroStrategy has the requirements, the legal requirements on how that Bitcoin is held, they end up going to disqualified custodians or big name brands because they don't want to get sued if there's a problem. But you know, those are a hundred actors, you know, maybe a thousand in a few years from now. But like it's a very small unique market. The vast majority of the money is in say family offices. So you know, they're stuffing vaults in places with Swiss francs. There's stuff in vaults of gold, there's stuff in vaults of con card. There is a lot of stuff out there that is just not as visible, but that's where a lot of the money is. And what's cool is that you know, like you as an average person with some tens of thousands of dollars in savings in bitcoin can store on that same cold card that people who store hundreds of millions of dollars do. That's the beauty of the bitcoin stack in general. We use technologies that are cross vendor independent. So like vendors can any vendor like if you take the seed out of a cold card, you can stick it in any other hardware wallet and it's going to work. There's a beauty to that. You're not vendor dependent. You don't if we disappear tomorrow, you're still safe. And there's a lot of those principles that applied and how we develop our stuff.

[Unknown Host]

Nvk, I could talk to you all day long because you're such a wealth of knowledge when it comes to this stuff. What I appreciate the most is you're able to frame it in a way that doesn't have this bias one way or the other. You're very middle of the road as far as just being able to lay out the strengths and the weaknesses of any side of these arguments and I greatly appreciate that and I know the listener does as well. So thank you so much for making time to come on the show. Give people a handoff or anything else that you want to highlight or promote. I'll let the audience know.

[NVK]

Thanks for that Preston. I know I'm just another bitcoin idiot, but I appreciate it.

[Unknown Host]

You're our idiot. Mvk.

[NVK]

That's right. No, I mean seriously, if people are interested in self custodying and having a solution that hopefully is handed over to their children, their grandchildren and grand grandchildren, take a look at our stuff. It'[e-mail] we make the code card, we make the tap signer, we make a bunch of stuff. I have a million other projects like the bitcoin treasuries and things like that. We have way too much fun in the space.

[Unknown Host]

We do. Thank you sir. Such a pleasure and honor to have you and I look forward to the next chat.

[Preston Pysh]

Thank you for listening to tip. Make sure to follow Bitcoin fundamentals on your favorite podcast app and never miss out on episodes. To access our show notes, transcripts or courses go to theinvestorspodcast.com this show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decision, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.