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The Investor's Podcast (We Study Billionaires) - The Investor’s Podcast Network
TIP790: Wealth Beyond Money w/ Thomas Mueller-Borja
01:19:57
Stig Brodersen speaks with Thomas Mueller-Borja, the Global Co-Head of Real Estate and Global CIO for Value-Add Real Estate at BlackRock.
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- [00:01]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
You're listening to tip.
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Stig Brodersen
I'm very happy to welcome my friend Thomas Borgia Moeller as today's guest. The investing world knows him as the global co head of real estate and global CIO for value add real estate at BlackRock, where he manages $25 billion. To our mastermind community, he's simply Thomas, a fellow member of our tribe and someone we deeply enjoy spending time with, especially when the conversation moves to the intersection of investing life and business. And I think I speak for all of us when I say that conversations with Thomas tend to make all of us a little wiser. For the first time, I was lucky enough to turn on the recorder and invite you to listen in as we explore these ideas together. Since 2014 and through more than 190 million downloads, we break down the principles of value investing and sit down with.
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
Some of the world's best asset managers.
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Stig Brodersen
We uncover potential opportunities in the market and explore the intersection between money, happiness.
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
And the art of living a good life. This show is not investment advice. It's intended for informational and entertainment purposes only.
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Stig Brodersen
All opinions expressed by hosts and guests are solely their own and they may have investments in the securities discussed.
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
Now for your host, Stig Brodersen.
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Stig Brodersen
Welcome to the Investors Podcast. I'm your host, Stig Brodersen, and today I'm here with my friend Thomas. Thomas, how are you today?
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
I'm good. What a privilege to be here. How are you, Stig? How are things?
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Stig Brodersen
I'm fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us. But I wanted to ask you, as we go into the episode here, are you here as Thomas or here as global co head of real estate and global chief investment officer for Value Add Real Estate at blackrock? It just rolls right off your tongue. So in which capacity are you here?
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yeah. What a convoluted title. Apologies for that. Well, I think hopefully, as both, you know, I think I'd love to be able to share some thoughts that would be valuable from sort of more professional perspective, from an investment perspective, from managing a business perspective, but hopefully also some things that are a bit more personal, which. Which, you know, might not be as obvious to hear from somebody like myself.
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Stig Brodersen
That's wonderful. Thomas, let me ask you one of those dinner party questions that's absolutely terrible. That is the what do you do? Type question. And, you know, you and I have this ongoing joke because we've known each other for some time now. Almost every time we meet up, I'm asking you what you do for a living. And I still don't know what you do. So I'm going to put you on the spot here and could you tell us, share with me, but also the audience, what do you do whenever you are. I'm going to say this again, global co head of real estate and global chief investment officer for value add real estate at blackrock. What do you do in a normal day?
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yeah, so maybe I'll break it down into sort of two answers. One is sort of what one would put on paper but then maybe I can describe sort of a typical day in my life to bring it to life. But I think as the title suggests, there's two parts of it. On the one hand, I lead together with my global co ed, Paul Tebbett, without whom I wouldn't be able to do this. The BlackRock real estate business, which is a small part of a very large organization, as you can imagine, I think we manage today 13 and a half trillion dollars and real estate of that is about 100 billion of which Paul and I manage a quarter. And so that's really, it's a role of leading and building a business and managing. But then the other part of it is really, and I think this is what I'm at heart at a CIO responsible for the global value add business, looking at investment performance and how we invest. But yeah, I think a typical day, and this would have been a Tuesday two weeks ago would look like this. I wake up at 2am and I find myself in a random, I think it was a Marriott courtyard in Tallahassee, Florida and I flew in the night before and I'm desperately trying to stay on European time zone. Effectively what that means is I go to bed on US time zone and then I wake up on European time zone and I think at 2am I was chairing an investment committee for an Asia do. It's like an Australian self storage deal. And then a couple of hours later I got together with what we call the European Investor group here at BlackRock, which is this fantastic sort of coming together of the most senior investors across Europe. And this could have been anything from fixed income to active equities to everybody in private markets, infra credit, PE, real estate and then actually to another IC by the time it's sort of 9am I'm getting ready for my 10am meeting in Tallahassee. So clearly I was doing all these calls in my pajamas and yeah, so I was meeting with the real estate team there to give them an update on their investment. So we manage a few investments in the European value add funds for them met with the CIO. And then by 2pm I'm back on a flight to New York where the next day I'm meeting with my US team, but also with BlackRock senior leadership. And there's some real legends there who support us in building our business and growing our business. And I think again, that's sort of reflective of the two strands. Meeting with the investment team, but also meeting with the senior leadership. And to give you sort of the final sort of point on that flight to New York, I would have typically been reading an investment paper, coming to the committee that I chair. Or finally, after sort of 12 hours of back to back meetings, I will be catching up on emails. And there's always something to be done because it is value add real estate. So something happens as a leasing decision or somebody's asking for more equity or a deviation from a business plan. And so I get back to my team.
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Stig Brodersen
That's wonderful. I think I understand a little better now what you do, Thomas, but I can't help but ask, I know it's a bit of a pop question, but like, how much do you travel for work, but also how important is it that you are there meeting in person? And I mean, right now we're having this interview over the Internet and I would imagine whenever you're doing something Tallahassee and said you were doing something with people in Australia that's also online. So what's the component of being there in person, but at the same time it's a big world and you don't want to be sitting in the airplane all the time. So what's the dynamic?
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
I travel a lot, so I think every other week I'll be either in the US or in the Middle east or in Asia. And I think the weeks where I'm here, very often I'll be traveling within Europe. And there's I think, two components to it. On the one hand, when I'm traveling here in Europe, I'm actually going to see the assets. You know, after all, like real estate is about acquiring physical assets. And so you actually have to go and convince yourself that they exist. And you know, you want to, you want to kick some tires or some bricks here. And so that requires some traveling. I think the capital base is, is actually global. And so like the example with Florida, Tallahassee, you want to go and see your investors in person to give them updates. And that's where I think I have quite an old fashioned sort of understanding of what partnership actually means. You know, it means building relationships and working together. To a common goal. And that I think requires physical presence so that the energy actually flows.
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Stig Brodersen
And so it's a remarkable amount of money. And you mentioned before you're co managing 25 billion and well, I would imagine if you are inside of BlackRock manages 13 trillion, perhaps you don't consider it to be a lot of money. For the rest of us, whenever it ends with a B, that's a lot of money. So whenever you talk about that, you meet up with your investors in person. How many investors would you have in a fund? And I'll imagine a lot of that money is institutional. So you would still have multiple investors probably to deal with from that fund that's investing in another fund. How does all of that work?
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
So we have a really broadly diversified investor base and I think that's part of the fun. In real estate you have very institutional capital, but then you have a lot of sort of family office, high net worth, even more and more sort of wealth capital. So typically we probably have somewhere between 40 and 60 investors in the fund. And you know, our funds are anywhere sort of between one and a half to two and a half, $3 billion. And you have some fairly large investors that could be a sovereign wealth fund or an institutional lesser like an insurance company, pension plan, corporate or public, but then also some fairly small tickets in there from family offices, endowments.
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Stig Brodersen
Incredible. And how does that work in practice? Like you know, I, I have these images of how it works in the movies. I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. But like do show up to a meeting and like do you want to invest a billion? And they're like, where do I sign? I'll imagine that there's probably a different process around that.
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yeah, look, it's very rare that on your first meeting you whip out your subscription agreement out of your briefcase and have somebody sign it. Unfortunately, in full disclosure, I don't really travel with a briefcase either. I think it goes back to the point of old fashioned understanding of partnership and building relationships. I think particularly in private markets it takes time. And from a first meeting with an investor to an actual investment in a fund, it can take months, it could take years to be honest. Where the investor will want to do their due diligence, they want to meet the investment team, they want to see your track record, but also assets that you've acquired in the past. They want to do an operational due diligence on you, like your systems, your processes. So this can be quite lengthy and often it takes two, three, four meetings which is why, you know, I sort of joke you need high levels of serotonin in this business. And I'm lucky that I have that. I'm a. I'm a fairly content and optimistic human being and I don't take things personally when I get showed the door. But it, you know, you have to speak to a lot of interested parties in order to find the ones where there's a good fit between their strategy, what they want to achieve, and what you're trying to achieve.
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Stig Brodersen
Thomas, I wanted to put you a bit on the spot here. And whenever we talk about the whole, hey, who are you? Very often we talk about what we do for a living, but I wanted to ask you the same question, but I also wanted to give you the opportunity to take in whatever kind of direction you want to take. So if I were to ask you, could you tell us a story, who you are, microcosm, whatever. I'm putting a lot of pressure on you now, but what story would you tell about yourself for us to get to know you?
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
I think I want to tell the story that my parents would tell you in answering that question. And this goes back a long, long time. I think I must have been sort of 10, 11. And as you know, I grew up in Switzerland, sort of in a quaint little village outside of Basel. And I had a wonderful childhood. And we lived on like this, this little road. But one day they closed down the motorway and they redirected all the traffic past our house, which was unusual. So there was this massive traffic jam and it was a hot summer day and all these people in these cars were just sweating away. And so the 10 year old sort of saw an opportunity, went down to the basement and emptied and brought out all the bottles of water and soft drinks and some snacks and put them in a basket. And I went sort of car by car and sold these grossly overpriced soft drinks to this very captive audience. And when my parents came back at the end of the day, they're like, what's happened? There's nothing left in our basement. And so I showed them sort of a bundle of cash. And I think that sort of, you know, that entrepreneurial spirit, that sort of spotting an opportunity and executing, I think that's always been sort of part of who I am. I think when I, when I joined BlackRock as the PM for the European Value Add Fund, there was no capital to invest, so I had to actually go and raise that capital first. So I had to create that opportunity for myself, which was one of the Hardest things I've ever done. Sort of getting to a first close as a first time pm, as I mentioned, requires fairly high levels of serotonin. But I think it's really this hunger for on the one hand, deal making, but also being entrepreneurial and building, building a business, which I think sort of probably characterizes me the best. But yeah, that sort of, you know, 25 years later after that episode as a 10 year old, when I was raising that first fund here at BlackRock in 2015, that was probably the toughest year of my life. But it was also the best because raising that first fund was only the. The second most important thing that I did. The most important thing was meeting my wife Justine and embarking on the most important project that also happened in 2015.
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Stig Brodersen
Well said. Well said. Thomas. Thomas, I want to take the option here to ask you a bunch of corporate questions and perhaps people out there, they're thinking like, well, whenever Steg and Thomas are hanging out, you know, away from the microphone, don't they talk about a lot of corporate stuff? And is it really what they talk about? And the answer is actually no, we don't really talk about this stuff. Even though I do usually ask you what you do for a living. That is my one go to question. But I think selflessly we don't talk about it. Not because I'm not interested, because please don't get me wrong, I think it's really interesting what you do, Thomas. I think it's a question of I sometimes feel that I need sort of to escape more like a public Persona where I'm like, if I speak to Thomas and ask him BlackRock questions, I'm going to be staked from tip asking Thomas from BlackRock about XYZ and I'm like, that's not really why we became friends. I really wanted to be friends with you because I stick want to be friends with Thomas. And I think, you know, I think it has many different layers. One of them is as simple as, you know, English is my second language and it's the language I speak whenever I'm doing business. So there's a component of whenever I speak Danish, I never talk about business just in that. And so already I kind of feel like I have a disadvantage to speaking in English because that is, you know, so how does that work for you, Thomas, with German being your first language? You speak a gazillion different languages. So I'm also curious to hear about how does that work for you? And I wouldn't say different Personas because I think it comes across as inauthentic, but that's not my intention at all.
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
Firstly, just to set the record straight, I speak a tiny bit of French. I'm Justine. My wife would laugh about it because she's fluent and she knows how poor my French is. But so, yeah, look, it's weird because Swiss German is my first language and it's not a particularly useful language. There's a few million people who speak it, but in technical terms, that is my mother tongue. But to your point, when I am with my family, even we speak English because Justine's from California and we speak English. So I end up speaking English also with the kids. But then I do try to integrate German in reading nighttime stories and the like. But I think I'm sort of this weird person who actually flipped. So my mother, being English, I grew up bilingually. I grew up speaking Swiss German as my first language, but then I moved to London 20 years ago and now I'm married to an English speaking. And so at some point I flip. And now I actually, I almost find it harder to speak German and certainly to conduct business in German, which in High German, which I do. And I do take meetings in German, but it's exhausting. It's very painful. And I think my success rate is markedly lower in German because people just think I'm not that smart. Maybe they think that in English too. Kudos.
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Stig Brodersen
No, I don't think that's the case at all. Oh, so Swiss German is different than Hochdeutsch, is that or.
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
That's right, yeah. Some people would say it's a heavy dialect, but actually, you know, when you go up to the mountains, to the valleys, it's truly a different language. As in the words are different. And sometimes I'll even struggle to actually understand what they're saying.
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Stig Brodersen
Wow, okay. Yeah. Well, for someone who's been taught hochdart since, you know, from seventh grade, I. I can't even begin. I think you must be the smartest guy in the world if you can have a meeting in that language and also do other languages at the same time. That's absolutely incredible.
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
That's something you kept a secret. So next time we'll speak in High German, right?
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Stig Brodersen
It's going to be a very brief meeting we're going to have. Thomas, I wanted to ask you, and this is going to sound like a very blunt question, so please forgive me, but I think for someone like you who are managing $25 billion, you know, it's incredible amount of money and you Just mentioned before you did, you started in 2015 with the first round with nothing really. How do you raise billions of dollars? Like I can see if you already have a fund and you call the people who invested last time, I can sort of see how you can get started. But like how do you raise billions from scratch, even with a BlackRock business card? How does that work?
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yeah, it's something that I also didn't know when I, when I joined is something that I really had to learn. And it requires both resource but also a clear strategy, a very structured approach. And again, being part of BlackRock, it's obviously massively helpful because we have our distribution teams. But in many respects when raising capital at BlackRock, you're selling twice because you have a distribution team that I think at the Moment could sell 2,500 products and about 100 in private markets. So I need to convince my own team that, hey, this is a valid strategy that's going to throw good risk adjusted returns where we can raise capital from the client base and then together we go and meet prospects and try to bring capital into the funds. But I guess in terms of what I mean by structured approach, going to give you a numeric example. If we're raising say $2 billion for the next European value add fund and we kind of know that our average ticket size is say 50 million euros, so we know we need to bring in 40 investors and we probably know what our typical conversion rate is. Let's say it's 20%. Actually, I'm actually not quite sure what it would be. So, you know, you need like a funnel of 200 prospects. And so, you know, you go out and you meet and somebody falls away because it's not a good fit for what they're looking for and you keep on rebuilding the funnel. But that's how we think about it. And we think about it really truly in global terms, so we generally don't leave a stone unturned. And trying to, trying to see whether we can be a solution for an investment need of a client as far away as Australia or South America or close by or Switzerland. So we truly have a global client base.
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Stig Brodersen
I know this is going to come across perhaps as a bit of a odd question here, but so have so many of the other questions I asked you, Thomas, like how does some of the inner plumbing look like if we're going out for, I don't know, lunch, I can venmo you whatever kind of. How does it work whenever you're transferring 50 million euros or a Billion euros. Is it like a digital contract? Then people just sign and then banks are notified or how does the inner plumbing look like for those massive transfers?
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yeah, so I guess in these private market strategies we run what we call closed ended funds and so the contracting effectively is still pretty analog. So somebody will actually physically sign a subscription document and adhere to a partnership and by doing so make a commitment to the strategy. But then only as and when we acquire assets would we effectively make a capital call to said investors to set limits partner. And again they will get a notification and then they would make a traditional bank transfer and then that capital then will sit within, I guess, our own Treasury. It then sort of typically flows through a corporate structure which is set up for the acquisition of the underlying asset. And then very traditionally the capital will flow through this structure and then at the very end of this daisy chain, it gets transferred to the vendors and then the title of the asset gets transferred to the special purpose vehicle that again sits in this structure, which is ultimately owned by the investor that's invested into that fund.
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Stig Brodersen
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- [22:29]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
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- [22:33]
Stig Brodersen
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
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- [22:41]
Stig Brodersen
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- [22:44]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
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- [22:56]
Stig Brodersen
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- [23:02]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
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Stig Brodersen
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- [23:14]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
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- [23:18]
Stig Brodersen
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- [23:26]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
It walks through the five mistakes investors.
- [23:29]
Stig Brodersen
Make when allocating to mining and and how to avoid them before deploying capital. If it sounds interesting, you can get.
- [23:35]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
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Stig Brodersen
That's SimpleMining IO Preston.
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- [26:01]
Stig Brodersen
All right, back to the show. And how does that work? Whenever you say investing committee, how many people are that and how does that work? And in practice, I sort of imagine this big boardroom and then there are a lot of people in suits sitting there and then someone is making a presentation and they're saying yes or no or they're pushing a button or like how does that look in real life?
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
It's not too similar to your description, I'm embarrassed to say. There's a lot of people in suits actually we don't have a dress code at blackrock, which is great. So people are also sitting around in trainers and T shirts, at least in the summer. But it is a little bit like that. So the investment team drafts a presentation. Our committee papers are in PowerPoint, and we try to keep them short, and typically they're very detailed. And then we meet for 90 minutes, sometimes for longer, to discuss the deal. The presentation is led by the portfolio manager and the investment team, but then we have an investment committee of seven to nine people, typically. So at the moment there's seven of us who then opines on the deal. Now this is fun. So BlackRock is this bottomless pit of incredibly talented people. And one of my favorite people in the firm, this incredible lady called Emily Hazley, who's a behavioral scientist, so she's a psychology PhD, and we together, really, led by her, redesigned our investment committee process a couple of years back when I started chairing the Global Investment Committee. And we made some changes. And one of the big ones is that now the committee votes autonomously. So rather than at the end of the session, everybody saying yay or nay, we then actually vote through a link, and the results go to our risk and quantitative analytics team, which is sort of a. A risk oversight function that is independent from the portfolio managers and the investment teams. And they then tell us whether the deal got approved or not. And what that should do is really protect people and allowing people to dissent. Because sometimes this is typical peer pressure to approve a deal. You don't want to scupper a team's months and months of hard work. But this really allows people to speak their mind. And I think it improves the process and it's better governance. The other thing that we introduced, again led by Emily, is this role of a challenger who's not an IC member. This is the role of the devil's advocate, which really, I guess, sort of champions the pre mortems, sort of conceptually, the. If this were to go horribly wrong, what's the most likely path of that happening? And this challenger has the mandate and is protected as such to be the most pessimistic person in the room. And again, I think that's a really helpful perspective to have at the committee. And yeah, so I think we keep on reviewing our process and asking ourselves, like, is this the best process to avoid the typical biases? And the group think that often you can see at these committees.
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Stig Brodersen
You know, Thomas, whenever I look at some of the macro trends you see right now, especially with the public debt situation, and it's there for everyone to see, of course. And I'm kind of curious to hear how you think about it. And I'm going to give you all kinds of biases I probably shouldn't. You know, to your point before, when you're talking about that real estate to some extent, historically at least, have been very much a fixed income play, you also see, you know, monetary debasement right now, real estate is typically better suited for leverage just in general, where you can be helped by that debasement in the first place. And so how do you position yourself whenever you look at the public debt situation across the developed world?
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
We talk a lot about cap rates, which really is just another way of saying yield. But effectively these cap rates are correlated to, I guess, risk free rates are sovereign rates, but not to the nominal rates, but to the real rates. And so in an ideal world, when the front end of the curve comes down, the whole curve comes down. And with that, your cap rates come down, which means cap rates effectively being the inverse of a multiple, your capital value of your asset increases. Now that's great in theory, but now we live in this world where sovereign indebtedness is at a level where, guess what, people aren't that convinced that the debt levels are sustainable. And so when central banks start to cut rates, rather than the curve coming down, it actually steepens the term premium increases, as we like to think. And what that does is because the correlation is with the four year or the five year or the ten year yields, it means that part of the curve doesn't come down. And so your cap rates don't come down. So what does that mean for us? Well, it means for us, from a relative value perspective, if we want to participate in that potential upside, and this, you know, we underwrite in a market neutral way. So all these market risks that we can't control, we don't necessarily want to bake into our base case underwrites, but when they do happen, then there should be upsides. But if we want to participate in that upside, we probably need to look to countries that have lower levels of indebtedness so that you can benefit from cap rate compression. And so we quite like Sweden, for example, where debt to GDP is 35%. We quite like Germany, where even with a trillion euros of fiscal spend, debt to GDP will be probably somewhere in the 85% range. But it's not like what we're seeing in France or in the uk, where all things equal, a little bit more nervous around the fiscal picture. So That's a very long winded way of saying it does really matter because real estate is correlated to rates in the fixed income space. I probably lost everybody.
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Stig Brodersen
It's such a complex question though. Thank you for daring to answer. Seems like everyone is asking themselves that question these days. Or perhaps it's just my own echo chamber.
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Thomas Borgia Moeller
There's a buffet quote there somewhere.
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Stig Brodersen
I know I'm sort of asking you a question that's sort of difficult. I don't know if it's really difficult to respond to or very, very easy to respond to, but it's about the meritocracy in a big corporation. I know we all had different paths to where we are. I'm thinking about a massive organization such as BlackRock. How much is a meritocracy? I'm not asking you to be like 88% or that's not so much my intention, but it's more like how do you define if someone is XYZ good? What do I mean by that? In something like sports? In most sports you can measure things quite objectively if someone is good at something. But then I'll and I don't know, in school you could be like, who got the best grade in math or whatever. I don't necessarily think you, you know, on your team. I'm sure everyone is doing well on the math test. But like how do you measure and how do you quantify who rise through the ranks in the organization such as BlackRock? How is that related to the culture? How is that being rewarded and how are incentives aligned? And I kind of feel like I'm putting on the spot. I'm sort of like going to get you into trouble. That that's not my intention at all. It' more like I see how difficult it is in a small organization and I'm like thinking, okay, x that with a thousand and then all the complexities that you then see.
- [34:18]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
I love getting in trouble, by the way, so that's totally fine. So how do I sort of measure success within the organization? I think, you know, like ultimately we're talking about investors here. Right. And so it does have to do with investment performance. And I think you can measure mistakes and I think we acknowledge that we all make mistakes. But the important part is that we get better at what we do, at least directionally. And so I think success is becoming better at what you're doing consistently and doing that with purpose and with drive. And so what impresses me is members of the team who are intrinsically motivated, who are self starters, who bring a Lot of energy to the team who have what I would consider hustle and do that consistently in a non selfish kind of way. I do think that those people can move through the ranks very, very rapidly. So we have some very talented young members of the team who are incredibly creative, great lateral thinkers who combine IQ with EQ and just have that special sauce that they bring to the equation. And I think it's particularly that combination of IQ and EQ as an investor that is so important because again, there's definitely a buffer in the, you know, you've got to be smart enough, but then is all down to temperament, right? It's about your emotional intelligence. And that's not just empathy, that's self awareness, ability to self regulate. And I think that's incredibly important as a message. I have one moment when I was reading Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow and he was talking about system one and two and this is sort of referring to my point about self regulating. In his book he says that he's not optimistic that one can get better at regulating system one, as in like intentionally sort of controlling your flight and fight response. And that never sat well with me. I always felt like that can't be true. And so then I sort of discovered this whole other world of how one can do that through meditation and sort of probably slightly more spiritual Buddhist principles. But I do think the ability to actually do what Kalaman thinks is really, really hard to do or impossible to do, I think that sort of is something that can be a real success factor. And I see it over and over again.
- [37:06]
Stig Brodersen
Well, thank you, Thomas, for providing this wonderful bridge here. Now that you do talk about spirituality, I have to invoke William, of course, our mutual friend. So I think the first question I want to ask you is very open ended. What have you learned from William?
- [37:23]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yes, so much. And maybe in order to really do everything that I've learned from injustice, I share a little bit like the journey that I've been on that got me there. And I'll again, this is a long winded answer to your question, so bear with me. But you know, I remember exactly when I listened to the first William podcast and it was actually the fourth episode with Jason Zweig and I was in Baku in Azerbaijan and I was walking through the old city. I was like, wow, this is amazing. I then read William's book and I read consequently Guy Spears book the Education of a Value Investor. And I remember reading that sort of thinking of the Parisian salons in the 20s and 30s, how all the Academics and artists and philosophers would come together and say, like, wouldn't it be amazing if, you know, if I could speak to William? And Guy and I then had the idea, why don't I invite William as a keynote to present at our BlackRock Real Estate Forum? And William kindly accepted and he came and did this incredible keynote. It was in fact so good that we invited him the following year where he did a one hour presentation or speech on Charlie Munger. This was the year when Charlie passed, which was absolutely incredible. It was absolutely incredible. But William then sort of very kindly introduced me to Guy, who invited me to Value X, which is where you and I met for the first time, and, you know, other great investors. And that then led to me going to Omaha for the first time. And William kindly invited me to the Tip dinner where I sat next to our friend Fred Duckford and, you know, met Chris Begg for the first time. And that led to me becoming part of the Mastermind community and then effectively taking the masterclass. And it's been such an incredible journey for me where I not only effectively became part of a new community, but as an investor, learned a different way of looking at the same problem. So even though I've been doing this for 20, 25 years, this has been a really important step in becoming a better investor. And so coming back to your question, what have I learned from William? Well, first of all, I've learned to think about the same problem in a different way from looking at investments from a more public equity perspective, having been in private markets all my life. And so I think that in itself has been enriching and you've contributed to that, and the entire community have contributed to that. And then of course, you know, from William himself, like when you meet him in person, I think the one thing that everybody immediately is struck by is his presence, how he is yours undividedly, and you have his full attention and presence and you can just feel this incredibly compassionate energy. And I think what I've learned from him is there's a whole world where finance meets ethical seriousness, where finance meets values. And I've learned from him how to do that, I think, and how to effectively engage with community, how to create these relationships. And a lot of it centers around this concept of quality and honesty and kindness. And I think finally coming back to one of the earlier things that we discussed, what I've realized is that what a lot of these investors have in common is temperament and values, that they come to investing from a deeply purpose and value based foundation. And that wasn't that obvious to me. And I think that then is linked to this piece of spirituality where not only do a lot of these investors have very elaborate and very serious meditation practices, for example, but they have a belief system that maybe is somewhat unexpected before you really, truly start to study these, these incredibly talented investors.
- [42:19]
Stig Brodersen
You know, Thomas, you, you more than once said to me that whenever you go to, to Omaha and then you go to the Milken conference afterwards, just that how different the two cultures are. And I was kind of curious. I know I'm putting you a bit on the spot here, but like, could you tell the difference and then also relate it to the belief system you talked about before?
- [42:39]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yeah. So the universe plays this perpetual joke on me that the Berkshire AGM is literally the weekend before the Milken conference. And so what happens is I fly to Omaha. So this year I'll do it for the third time. And then at 2pm on Sunday, there's a flight from Omaha to Nax. And on that flight, typically is Dorothy, Charlie's executive page. And so her and I have a chat on the flight from Omaha to la. But yeah, I think because these two events are back to back, it really sort of highlights the two ecosystems. So on the one hand in Omaha, I think you have, you know, 40,000 people thinking about investing, but also not just about making money, but making money the right way. And you know, some of the, the key components there are more long term thinking, interest, alignment, you know, having the right incentives. And then, you know, I think when I arrive in la, then, you know, the focus is much more on the making money rather than how to make money. And I'm not saying in any shape or form that, you know, the people attending Milken are not ethically serious. I think they are. But I think there's just, you know, a shift in focus. And for me that's interesting because I know sort of where my spiritual home is and in many respects I think I can sort of bring a bit of Omaha to la. And I think that, you know, to link it back to culture is also why I'm at blackrock, because I do think at blackrock we think about values and ethics.
- [44:31]
Stig Brodersen
So, Thomas, the first time I met you in person, I wanted to say that it was very clear to me right out of the gates that you were a high quality person. I was actually not thinking too much about it. It was mainly sheer fear. The first time I met you, not because of you though, it was in Switzerland. And then I got called out. Actually, I can't remember. I was probably just. Doesn't sound nice, but I'm pretty sure I was zooming out or something. And then guy was like, okay, could you moderate whatever Thomas is doing now? And I was like, who's Thomas? And what, okay, let me moderate a stock pitch about real estate because I know nothing about it. So that was whenever I met you the first time. But my point was it was very clear to me right out of the gates that you're a very high quality person. And I wanted to ask you, and you meet with so many different people in all walks of life. Do you have any tells of the quality of other people? How do you define it? How do you. Is it an energy transfer? Like, how do you think about it?
- [45:35]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Well, firstly, you're too kind. And right back at you. I think what really stands out with you and William and I'm sure Preston and everybody on the network, you're incredible people, both from a talent and from a values perspective. I think for me to answer your question around that quality aspect, it is really that it's that combination of talent and ethical seriousness. I think when we recruit for the team, I think the four things we look for, talent drive, which I think is different from ambition. So drive much more inward looking, sort of, to use Warren's word in a school card. And not earned ambition. I think it's more out of scorecard. And then it's really that teamwork and humility. And I mean, not in a naff way, I think that term is sort of overused, but I think good humility is. Jason Spike said that in his episode with William trying to be humble, striving to be humble, but also accepting that you're never really going to be humble. I think that's the right level of humility.
- [46:47]
Stig Brodersen
How do you determine which people to hang out with? And I know that sort of like sounds a very simplistic type question, but you know, it was sort of like, I don't know how it was with you whenever you're in college, but like back then it was just more. A bit more natural. At least, you know, there you're in a class and there is some you had, I don't know, you're watching the same sports or whatever. And then you started to have a few beers and talk about nothing. Whatever you do in college, like, how do you. You're so busy, you travel all over the world, you meet so many people, you build relationship with some, then not so much with, with others. How do you think about who to build relationship with. And how do you do it? And. And why?
- [47:27]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yeah, I think I'm pretty open and generally curious, so I think I let a lot of people in. I think where. Where I'm sort of quite drastic is where, you know, if there's no good value alignment, then, you know, life is too short, then I have no interest in really spending time. I do think where you find people, where you can really go deep. Like you and I, when we talk, whatever the topic is, you know, we tend to go deep and we build on each other and arrive somewhere that maybe we wouldn't have landed if we just thought about it ourselves. And I think that is. That's what really motivates me. I think that's one of the other things that I've really learned from William and you. I've never asked myself before, you know, what am I optimizing for?
- [48:28]
Stig Brodersen
That's absolutely amazing. You know, I wish I had something. I wish I could quantify. I like to quantify things. And of course, not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts should be counted in the first place. I can't tell you exactly how this works, but sometimes whenever you meet people, you just. You just click better with them than others. And I don't know, I was just curious to hear, like, with you, whenever I talk about an energy transfer, it's probably not the right way to articulate it. Do you feel like there is this, like, either you click, or is it as simple as saying you click with another person? Or does it really. Is it more value alignment? How do you read between the lines? I kind of feel like I'm probably asking this question twice here, but I'm kind of curious to hear a bit more about this science instead of, you know, in my case, like, oh, yeah, either it is or it isn't, and you're like, that's completely useless. Or perhaps that is the answer. I don't know.
- [49:26]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
No, I. I like. I like the fact that you asked the question again, and I think you're guiding me a little bit more in. In a direction with. With this second question. I think it is a lot about values, but I think you bringing up the word energy there is really important. This might sound a little bit hooked, you know, but. And it's probably sort of the. The relational equivalent to being in flow. Like when you're having a conversation where it's flowing and you're going deep and you're building on each other, there's absolutely energy that flows. And I think actually, weirdly, like you can even do that on video, right? I mean, ideally you would do them in person and you can physically feel the energy flowing. But I think when, you know, when we're having this conversation right now, I still, I still feel elevated and excited and curious and something's happening inside of me that is really hard to explain. You know, you mentioned what's a scientific explanation. I don't know whether there is one. Maybe this is where we're sort of transcending into the, into the spiritual. But I do think energy flows between, between people and when it clicks or two minds meet, whatever you, however you want to describe it, I think that's what's happening energetically. Something that's shifting.
- [50:48]
Stig Brodersen
Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.
- [50:51]
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- [54:11]
Stig Brodersen
All right, back to the show. I typically refer this to as flow state. And I wonder if I'm using the wrong word here, but I'm kind of curious to hear how do you go into flow state, if at all? What is your technique? How is it different than meditation for you? And what do you hope to get out of it?
- [54:29]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
So, so this is where the audience will think I'm a bit wacko. So I subscribe to. And William talks about this in, in richer ways, are happier. And I can't remember which. Which investor he talks about. But you know, it's sleep, food, exercise and meditation. And I would add a fit which is relational. It's family, friends. But in order to get to a state where I can go into flow, certain boxes need to be ticked. I need to have slept and I perpetually don't sleep enough. But I have this superpower where I can sleep anywhere if I get the opportunity. So put me into a plane to the annoyance of everybody around me. I'll put on my sleep mask and I'll sleep until somebody wakes me up. One can help oneself, right? So at home, and this is where we have this thing called sleep Eight, which is. Regulates effectively the temperature in your bed. And Justine likes to be freezing cold when she sleeps. I like to be warm. So this actually helps get to the right temperature. And over the last two years, I've been able to increase my deep and REM sleep by 25% from three to four hours, which is. That's like a real game changer. So I try to sleep in an ideal world, seven hours, but I probably sleep six. And when I travel more like five, I try to exercise because it's hard when you haven't slept enough. When I'm in London, I actually have a personal trainer that I see twice because I know that he's going to be very grumpy if I don't show up. So even though I could do the exercises by myself, knowing that he's waiting will get me out of bed. But then I think the big part is meditation. And I think that's where, you know, William and Chris beg talk about this concept of spaciousness. And I really made this my word of the year 2025. Another thing that I've learned from William, I can create this through being more intentional, having a morning practice, meditating, where I can create some space between what's happening and myself. So I have an increased level of awareness. I'm aware that I'm aware. And when I have this sense of spaciousness, I think I can do great things. And I think that is my version of flow state. And I know it when it's there. And I love feeling that feeling. And I find it frustrating when I don't have it, when I don't get into that state. And so, you know, I. I kind of plan a little bit my life around it. I've really stopped almost entirely drinking alcohol. You know, obviously every now and then, you know, a good glass of wine is fantastic, but I just think it. It doesn't really help me. And so. So, yeah, there you go. I did tell. I say that it was a bit wacko.
- [57:37]
Stig Brodersen
No, I. I don't think it's wacko at all. Thomas, I'm kind of curious to hear, with you traveling so much, do you find it easier or harder to go into flow state whenever you're traveling compared to whenever you're at home?
- [57:52]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Well, I think it's harder because it does interfere with your sleep, which is why, you know, at the very beginning, I said when I. When I travel to the East Coast, I try to stay on European time as much as I can. So I'll be up at 2, 3am in the morning. And so, so I've become a bit of a professional traveler and I have my, my, my, my coping strategies, but it clearly does interfere a little bit.
- [58:17]
Stig Brodersen
You know, I almost go into flow state the exact same time every day. And so whenever I travel, that's whenever those routines go out of whack. And I can, I can feel it because you don't have this positive spiral where, you know, you, you feel energized and then you get good interactions with other people that makes you feel even more energized and that, you know, so sort of like you're going the other direction. Again, I'm not as a professional of a traveler as you are, so I'm sure you have some coping mechanisms. But I was just curious to hear if you could more or less go in flow state 1, 2, 3. I'm amazed that you can just sleep whenever. I also know you have two small cats, so perhaps that's also helpful.
- [58:54]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
That definitely contributes. What time of the day do you go into flow?
- [58:59]
Stig Brodersen
Typically around 11:15am and then again around 4, 4:30. It's just like. And there are certain ways for me where, you know, it's easier if it's, if it's bright, which sometimes is a bit trickier because it's in Denmark. So it's, you know, dark sometimes a year in 4:30. But it's like I typically need to be in motion. Like I have a hard time sitting in a couch and then going to flow state. It can happen. It's just a bit more, I'm inclined to say hard work. And I know you're not supposed to say it's hard work, but going back to what you said there before, you sort of like need to be in the right state of mind. And I sometimes feel like if you don't get enough sleep or you're too hungry or too stressed, like, that's probably whenever you need it the most. But that's actually the hardest time to go into those flow states in the first place. Which is why I was so curious to hear how we do whenever you travel, because that, I think that is the one thing that I need whenever I travel. And I do think that there's also an element of control. And I don't know if it's healthy for me at all, but I do think I like that element of control. And one of the things that you're susceptible to whenever you do travel is that you have significantly less control. And so I don't really go into that flow state that often. And I feel like I'm not a good version of myself. And so, you know, I don't necessarily know if this is the best example, but you know, we met up in London not too long ago and so I was very fortunate that you know, we had a chance to meet out outside and then there was like a group dinner which is like not really my scene. It was really, really nice. But like, don't get me wrong, but I actually one of the members who were there and I didn't have a chance to meet up with him on one on one, but I actually sent him a text and asked if we can jump on a zoom call where we can have a conversation one on one. Just because I knew that whenever we were to meet up in person I wouldn't be a good version of myself. And so sorry that this probably all come across as very self serving but I think a lot about this of course being a good version of myself and not being a good version of myself. And one of the ironies that I struggle a bit with, which I'm sure you have perfected, Thomas, is that I generally don't feel I'm a good version of myself whenever I travel. But it's whenever I travel and meet new people, it's sort of like the worst combination you can think of. So how does that work for you?
- [61:21]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yeah, I hear you. And maybe just one side comment before I get there because you mentioned timing. I think my flow state is very early in the morning before the kids wake up. My beautiful little darlings, they wake up at 7. But you know, from sort of before 6 to 7 that that's when I usually sit at my desk. It's in my environment, amongst my books and I'm uninterrupted and good things happen. Then I think the, you know, the traveling and not being the best version of myself and meeting people, I think I'm, I'm getting better at it over time. I think there's, you know, traveling to the US is easier than traveling to Asia. What I will say though, you know, in New York it's actually pretty easy because nobody minds having a dinner at 5pm or 5:30 if you try to do that in London, you know, people think you're a little bit weird, but in New York that's totally acceptable. And so I can have a dinner and a normal conversation and be, you know, be in bed by 9pm and so I think it's a little bit easier. But I certainly feel that way when I go to Asia and you know, meet a Lot of incredibly interesting people there. And I always feel like, ah, I wish my mind wasn't quite as clouded and I had a bit better, more interesting and fun chat to offer.
- [62:47]
Stig Brodersen
Yeah, I certainly feel your pain, Thomas. And the reason why I also wanted to bring it up with you is actually because you've been very kind and visited me a few times here in Aarhus. And sometimes we're discussing different places to live and how it is to be in this city versus another city. And one of the things that I love about London, where you're based is just I have this feeling that everything is possible. I love London. I feel everything is possible in London. And it's not as fast paced as let's say New York City, for example. But you know, there are some other things that I'm not always like as much. So for example, I went to this local cafe right next to the hotel I was staying at and a cup of coffee was like 32 quid. And it was good coffee though I'm not going to say that it was. Wasn't.
- [63:34]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
But maybe not worth 32 quid.
- [63:36]
Stig Brodersen
Yeah, it was, it was a price of coffee.
- [63:39]
Sponsor/Advertiser
And.
- [63:40]
Stig Brodersen
But. And so sometimes whenever I walk around London or it depends on where obviously, you know, whenever you move around the city, there are some nicer parts and not some nice parts of the city, but there's certainly parts where I don't feel that rich. And whenever I walk around here in here in Aarhus, it's not because, you know, it's a very poor city by any means, but like you get the feeling that you can walk into any store and get what you want and get what you need. And so like, I don't know, at least mentally for me it's. It makes a difference. I would like to say that I'm not prone to all of that from the like, I guess I am, you know. And so I'm thinking a lot about this idea of defining games and then winning those games. And I think sometimes, or I can't speak for everyone else, I can probably speak for myself. Like if I feel like I can't win a certain game, I just don't want to play it. I would want to play a game where I can win. And then if I just make my story here very long. I also think that there is something to be said about the more you express gratitude, the more it leads to contentment, which is sort of like a wonderful thing. But at the same time I'm fearlessly competitive and I like to set goals and I like to achieve goals. And I also become stressed if I achieve all my goals because then I'm stressed about not setting ambitious enough goals. And I kind of feel like as I'm saying this, I can see how, you know, I can't have it all by definition. And so I'm kind of curious to hear. How do you think about that, Thomas?
- [65:12]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
It's going to sound slightly delusional here, but I. So I like a challenge. I think that's clear. And you know, when I was talking about that first close for a first time fund, how hard that was, I actually loved that it was so hard because it was a little bit defying the odds. But I always believed, and I think this is the delusional bit, like I kind of really believe I can do anything. And because I have that, I am an optimist by nature. And I think as an investor, you have to be an optimist in order to want to take risk and sort of coping with the uncertainty. But then you need to be reined in by people around you who then sort of tap you on the shoulder. Like, that's a great idea, Thomas, but we can't do that. Or this is how we're going to do it. Because what you're saying is a great vision, but in order to execute it, this is what needs to be done.
- [66:16]
Stig Brodersen
Well said, Thomas. I also think a big part of it, at least for me, is where that. Where that energy is coming from. And so this is going to sound like a terrible example, but I'm going to say it anyway. I remember obviously I wasn't that old, but I remember I had to learn how to tie my own shoelaces, which I guess something we all have to figure out at some point in time. And I remember I couldn't figure it out. I hope I was very young at the time, but I remember and I remember it frustrated my parents. And then one of their friends taught me how to do it. And I obviously have learned it since how to do that. And the reason why I bring it up, and I know it's a bit of an odd story, is that sometimes you need to learn the exact same things from the right source. And especially if you're very strong headed like I am. But certainly whenever I was a kid, there are certain things that your parents want to teach you. And you can't really learn that from your parents because they're your parents. It's sort of like if you're coaching your kids, whatever kind of softball team, whatever, it's like there are probably Some things you can teach your kids and then there are certain things you just cannot because they're your kids and they just don't want to hear from you. And I see that in many walks of life. Whenever it comes to playing different games, I think I have, especially whenever I was younger, I tied very much money to happiness. And I think I've needed to hear from people with a lot of money that money didn't buy happiness. Whereas I sometimes would feel if I would meet people who really, really tried hard to make money and couldn't do it, and then told me, but by the way, you can't, it has nothing to do with happiness. Which I also kind of like want to challenge that premise in the first place. But anyways, there's something about learning the same thing from different sources and have a different impact on you. So I'm kind of curious to hear if that sparks any reflections to what we just talked about here or in general. Thomas?
- [68:22]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yeah, I think it does. I think some of the most important lessons I have learned, obviously from my parents. My dad is a very principled man, which as a kid sucked. But you know, now as a grown up that I've adopted his, his principles. It's been incredible. You know, he's, I remember as a kid asking him like, you know, can you bring me home some pens and some post its from work? And he said, son, that's stealing. And I'm like, oh, okay. And that just stuck with me forever. And you know, from my mom, I sort of learned kindness. She really is an incredibly kind human being and treats everybody the same. But you know, like, I think one has to be open to, to your point about, you know, learning from maybe also unexpected sources. I think, I think you just have to be open and curious and be prepared to learn when it's unexpected and that, that can be in, in any situation that could be sort of, you know, on the sidewalk. I've learned an incredible amount from the mastermind community, from the masterclass that I just, I never expected. I thought it was going to be interesting and fun and it's going to be, you know, enriching, but that it's actually going to have an impact on me and my career. As in make me a better investor. I, I did not expect that. I feel like I'm not really answering your question, but nevertheless it felt, it felt important to say.
- [69:48]
Stig Brodersen
Thomas I wanted to ask about a different topic and I wanted to sort of like, I want to tell you where this, where the question is coming from and then I'm going to turn into something completely different just to confuse everyone. So I was reading Invent and Wander, the book about Bezos and his letters. And then there was some other copy around it and there was this story and I'm going to butcher it completely, but it was about Bezos's grandparents, had a big impact on him. And at some point in time he's like 10 years old, something like that. He was sitting at the backseat of his grandparents car and he had calculated how much expected lifetime his grandmother would lose while she was smoking cigarette on that trip. And she started to cry. And you know, there was this conflict between Bezos and his grandfather. And he said after that that it made a big impact on him. And he was told it's easier to be honest than to be kind. And I find that the dilemma to be perhaps it's not even dilemma, but I find that relationship between kindness and honesty to be incredibly interesting. And I think often about that example, but I wanted to use it in so many going so many other directions as I'm saying this. So please bear with me Thomas, if I can invoke another book, Ridalus Principles. And you talk about radical transparency and you also talked about one of the challenges with that is that a lot of people use it as an excuse to be cruel because they say, oh, but I'm just radical transparent or I'm just being honest. And you're like, no, you're actually being cruel right now. And I think the world would be a simpler place if it was like honesty equals good. I don't think the world isn't always that kind. There are a lot of nuance to being kind and to being honest. Whenever we are very young, we're very honest because we don't really know what's right and wrong and what's socially acceptable. And sometimes we can be very honest and we can hurt people, but then we're just kids, we don't know any better, so it's okay. And then we might enter a phase, we might be the wrong of the ladder and their workplace and we realize we can't really be that honest. It doesn't really work in our favor. And perhaps then we become more successful, we become the Thomases of the world and we run our own team. And all of a sudden we can be a lot more honest if we want to because the consequences of being honest is different. And then there are other settings, other kind of relationships where you also have to balance this honesty and kindness. And so I'm kind of Curious to. As people can tell, I think a lot about it. But as people can also tell, I don't really have a good way of dealing with it. I'm kind of curious to hear how you deal with this intersection between honesty and kindness.
- [72:32]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Thomas I think it's super complex. It sounds like a black and white sort of topic, but it really isn't. I'll start with honesty. I think honesty for me is easier just because I think being dishonest is still hard for me. I find it energetically. It really consumes a lot and so I just naturally don't do it. It has a lot to do with my upbringing and I mentioned my principal dad, who I love dearly. And I strongly also believe that honesty is really something that you do for yourself. It's actually selfishly the right thing to do. I imagine sort of this fork in the time continuum where you create two parallel truths that then inevitably in the future meet again and that's when it's going to come and bite you in the butt. And so honestly, it's just, it's just a easier way of living. I think kindness is much more complex. It's harder to come by. I really try and I think when I, you know, speak to my girls, if I had to elevate like one, one value that our family stands for, it would be kindness. And that's sort of something that, you know, we, we try to practice every day to be kind and to treat everybody the same. But the two are often intentioned with each other. To your point, sometimes actually the kind thing to do is to be not quite honest to somebody. And so it's. I think that's almost like a hierarchy, that kindness trumps honesty if it serves kindness. And that's kind of how I think about it. And one thing that my wife reminds me of is also that there's not only one version of the truth. I think everybody holds their own truth based on where they're coming from. And so truth is often a perception thing.
- [74:34]
Stig Brodersen
I was very fortunate to meet your wife earlier this year. Now that you invoked her, I have to continue because she teases you about this white knight complex that you have and so many more things and so many more. But I think it's an interesting complex and she would know. I'm kind of curious to hear because I think quite a few other listeners might resonate with that or parts of it. Could you talk about what it is and also how you frame the. And it's not like a medical diagnosed thing. I just want to say, for the record, but can you talk about how you phrase it in a. Or how you frame it for yourself in a positive light?
- [75:16]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yeah. So Justine would be better at describing it as she is a psychologist, but I think it's this almost compulsive need to do the right thing, to take the high road, to do the ethical thing. When given two options, it's not just do the thing that's ethically the right thing out of the two options, but to adhere to your North Star, and if neither of those options meet your standard, to then go and search for a third option. But I think the. The main word there is the compulsive nature of it. And so as much as she loves me, and I think this is something that she really appreciates, and it makes, you know, it makes our lives probably more predictable. And I think. I think it's a trait that she respects. It's also super annoying. Right. If you're in an argument with somebody who then argues his case by positioning it as the right way of doing it, then, you know, that's infuriating. And so I think that's when it's sort of conditioned more as a white knight complex in a negative way. But I think at the end of the day, look, it's. I think it is about doing the quality thing. You know, I think you and William are, you know, incredible examples of, you know, people who do exactly that and who would do it the right way. But I feel like, Stig, you might be victim of a similar complex.
- [77:01]
Stig Brodersen
I probably am. That's why I wanted to hear from you. You implemented. So I'm coming out completely on that. But it is sort of like, you know, it is tricky whenever you're positioned as, let's go my route. And that is the moral high ground. Talk about infuriating someone else. You know, that's like a terrible thing to say, even though it might. It might come from a good place. But, you know, I do think a lot about, like, I, like so many others, you know, I have chapters I would rather leave unpublished, and one mental framework, mental model, if you want, that I've tried to apply, sometimes more successful than others, is which decision I would be happy with a decade from now. And of course, we can't really predict where we're going to be in a decade. Like, I think if you asked me a decade ago where I would be today, it would be a completely different person. And we tend to believe that who we are in a decade is just like who we are now. We Just extrapolated. And we probably have, I don't know, more gray hair, whatever, but that's generally not how the world works. But I found that to be helpful in terms of choosing the bigger life. So that was my way of not answering your question, Thomas.
- [78:14]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
It's a good answer, though.
- [78:16]
Stig Brodersen
Thomas. I want to see if I can sneak one question in here about books. It's always wonderful to have the opportunity to talk about books. Do you have any recommendations to what you're reading right now and how that ties into this call? The intersection between business, investing and life?
- [78:33]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Full disclaimer. I purchase a lot of books and it feels like sometimes our home is like a Amazon sort of distribution center. And I try to read and then life happens. And so I end up reading a lot when I have time, and I read in batches. And then like for a period of time, just life gets too busy. But I think a reflection of all the things that we talked about. I'll give you a few books. The first one is a book that I very recently read is actually Rory Stewart's Politics on the Edge. And I read it because I was moderating a panel between Rory Stewart and my friend Philip Hildebrand, who's a vice chair here. And it was an incredible conversation. But as a consequence, I read that book and then I just started reading Middleland, his new book. And I think Rory's a really great writer and tells a good story. Another book that. And I think I'm a little bit like William. I read like 12 books in parallel and sort of never get to the end of them, which is very different to how you read books. Another book that I sort of stumbled upon, and it's been lying around for a while, and I just picked it up and started reading it, and I really love it, is Charles Handy's 21 Letters of Life and Its Challenges. And there's just real depth and wisdom there from somebody who's. Who's thought about life in just a profound way. And I feel like there's something really gentle and wise about his writings. And then, because ultimately this is still an investment show, I always have a few investment books open, but I just gifted myself. This is my Christmas gift to self. I think I may have bought the last copy on Amazon of Seth Klarman's Margin of Safety. So that's what I'm going to take on the holiday.
- [80:28]
Stig Brodersen
Oh, wow, that's wonderful. You know, I can't help but ask you a super, super nerdy question about books. How do you think about Opportunity cost whenever you're reading a book.
- [80:39]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Yeah. So I think of it in terms of enjoyment relative to learning. So I love having time to read and when I have time, then I read very slowly because what happens is my mind drifts and I'll start thinking about stuff and I'll have ideas where I'm connecting dots and it's, it's a kind of flow, but not, it's not very, there's, there's no self awareness in the process. I'll then catch myself like, oh, oh, wait a second. This is what I was doing. But that I think is a very enjoyable and actually quite a creative process. But in terms of opportunity costs, you know, when I, when I really want to consume books in order to then hold the knowledge and to be learning, I actually, I listen to them and I've just moved from 1.5 to 1.8 speed and I think I'm probably like a few months away from two speed, which is probably, probably a bit silly. But I think that's where opportunity cost plays into it because I can listen to twice as many books.
- [81:49]
Stig Brodersen
I know exactly what you mean. Even whenever it comes to reading speed, that competitive nature, it's like, can I do it a little bit better? It's always there somewhere.
- [81:58]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
It's terrible.
- [81:59]
Stig Brodersen
It is. Thomas, it's amazing to have this discussion with you and be able to record it. Do you have any concluding remarks? Anything where you feel like we should have, you know, explore that a bit more? Just wanted to send you a very opening question here at the end.
- [82:17]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
No, like, I think this has been amazing and I'm glad that we really just had a conversation and maybe there's a few tidbits there that are useful for listeners, but I just want you to know this has been a real privilege and you know, I'm really grateful to you and William and Preston and the whole team because you're just a constant companion in my ear and I truly learn every week and it's actually an important part of doing my job. So I really wanted to just extend my gratitude.
- [82:53]
Stig Brodersen
Thank you for saying so, Thomas, and thank you for bringing me along your journey. It's incredible the power of the value investing community and how you feel like you meet new people, you've never met them before. But for the lack of better words, something clicks and then all of a sudden it's like you've been friends for so and so many years, you know. Thank you for making time.
- [83:15]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Pleasure is all mine. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Tip.
- [83:20]
Stig Brodersen
Follow. We study billionaires on your favorite podcast.
- [83:23]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
App and visit theinvestorspodcast.com for show notes and educational resources. This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and does not provide financial, investment, tax or legal advice.
- [83:34]
Stig Brodersen
The content is impersonal and does not consider your objectives, financial situation, or needs. Investing involves risk, including possible loss of.
- [83:41]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Principal and past performance is not a guarantee of future results. Listeners should do their own research and consult a qualified professional before making any financial decisions. Nothing on this show is a recommendation.
- [83:51]
Stig Brodersen
Or solicitation to buy or sell any.
- [83:52]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
Security or other financial product. Hosts, guests and the Investors Podcast Network may hold positions in securities discussed and may change those positions at any time without notice. References to any third party products, services or advertisers do not constitute endorsements and.
- [84:06]
Stig Brodersen
The Investors Podcast Network is not responsible.
- [84:08]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
For any claims made by them.
- [84:10]
Stig Brodersen
Copyright by the Investors Podcast Network.
- [84:12]
Thomas Borgia Moeller
All rights reserved.