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- [00:00]
Abby Wambach
The youngest player in the team walked into the training room. I'd been in there for an hour getting my old ass body ready for training that day. And she just looked at the trainers and said, I'm not feeling well. I'm gonna go back to bed. And she walked back and just walked out of the training room. And I looked around and I was like, we can do that. I had no idea. I know I had no access to be able to take care of myself.
- [00:23]
Billie Jean King
In some ways, drinking's the same as eating. Overeating, we get numb. It helps us not feel. Feel. Yeah. Okay.
- [00:30]
Julie Foudy
Two iconic athletes like yourself are talking this way. Tells people that, like, yes, we all, regardless of our. Our journey, are going to go through some things.
- [00:42]
Abby Wambach
Attention. The party is about to commence.
- [00:53]
Julie Foudy
Welcome to the party. What's up, party people? I'm Julie Foudy.
- [01:01]
Abby Wambach
And I'm Abby Wambach.
- [01:04]
Billie Jean King
And I'm Billie Jean King.
- [01:06]
Abby Wambach
Hi, Billy.
- [01:07]
Billie Jean King
Hi, guys. What's happening?
- [01:09]
Abby Wambach
How's everybody?
- [01:11]
Julie Foudy
Good. Good.
- [01:13]
Abby Wambach
That's good. Okay, well, I'm just gonna go ahead and kick it off then, because this is personal for me and Billy, I know you also have experience around this, but it's May, and that means Mental Health Awareness Month. And on our show, we like to celebrate women's sports, obviously, but then we also have to be kind of honest about the full picture. Because for me, the truth is a lot of athletes, and especially female athletes, we're just carrying so much more than people see. And I know that it feels maybe like. And it looks like we have it all together on the outside, but there's also a whole world and a whole struggle that could be going on on the inside. We're kind of good at masking some of our internal struggles. And I've lived with that personally. The pressure, the expectations, the identity wrapped up in kind of being an athlete and what we think think we're supposed to be. And it just can be really heavy. And I think for a long time I didn't talk about it. I thought I was supposed to be strong and be invincible and immortal in this weird way. And so today we are going to kind of crack it open in a way. What do you think, Billy? Do you think that that rings true to you as well?
- [02:43]
Billie Jean King
Oh, for sure. I've had many, many struggles. And also, I know other athletes, to your point, that were suffering and particularly, I mean, I know this sounds like I walk five miles in snow and you don't know, but it's like in the 60s and 70s, you did not Talk about this. Yeah. And also with sexuality.
- [03:05]
Julie Foudy
Neither in the 80s or 90s, honestly.
- [03:07]
Billie Jean King
Well, I agree with that to a point, but it's very different in the acceptance that we have now. It's really changed, which is so much healthier and we're still having challenges. So I think it's really important that every human being listen up in this particular episode and really think about themselves and what they can do. I mean, I'm big on therapy, so I'm huge on therapy. I think everybody should. I think every person, even if you're in a good place, should have therapy. That's how bad I am.
- [03:39]
Abby Wambach
Same.
- [03:39]
Billie Jean King
So I'm very biased.
- [03:41]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [03:41]
Julie Foudy
And we are going to get into all of that, if you're willing, Billy, but.
- [03:45]
Billie Jean King
Oh, yeah, sure.
- [03:46]
Julie Foudy
I will point out, too, that to your point about it being different now that. That athletes are talking about. Talking about it, you've had female athletes like Naomi Osaka and Simone Biles, for example, Ali Raisman, I mean, just to name a few, that have really, I think, helped make it more acceptable for athletes to speak openly about what they're going through. And. And big names in men's sports as well, like Michael Phelps, of course, and Kevin Love, who also played a huge role in pushing that conversation forward. And I think when you have athletes talking about this and being honest about it publicly, it makes a big difference for that next generation. We Kinger recently, as you know, had one of those athletes on the pod, national champion, and now, so strange to say, Mystics star in wnba, Lauren Betts. So we asked Lauren about her own mental health journey.
- [04:53]
Lauren Betts
I feel like the biggest piece for me was vulnerability and not feeling shame behind, like, getting help and talking to people about it. And I feel like that was the biggest thing that held me back was that I didn't feel comfortable talking to people because I felt so embarrassed. And I feel like over time, getting a therapist, you know, talking to my teammates, my coaches, just being completely honest with them, kind of took that weight off my shoulder. And I felt like the way I showed up as a friend, as a sister, as a daughter, as a teammate has just been so much better because I feel like I'm able to, like, truly live out, like, just live, like, freely and not feel like I need to hold myself back and just have so much, like, joy and lightness about me. So, yeah, I highly consider everyone getting a therapist. Man, it's changed my life. It's changed my life. Yeah. Yeah, me too.
- [05:49]
Abby Wambach
Me too. Me too. Me too. So great.
- [05:53]
Julie Foudy
She agrees with you all too she agrees. And Abs and Billy, as you know, you're not alone. But there is, as we know, still much, so much work to be done. So many female athletes are suffering. And listen to this. According to a study by Nebraska Medicine, female athletes face a higher risk of anxiety and depression than male athletes. Athletes, roughly 44%. This is crazy to me. 40. So almost half of female student athletes report feeling overwhelmed constantly or most every day. Think about that. Almost half of female athletes are overwhelmed almost every single day. So key issues include depression, anxiety, eating disorders, and burnout. I'm so grateful that you both are willing to share your stories today, because I, I do think, as we just said, it's so important for people to hear so that they know that they're not alone as well. So, Abs, you want, you want to start first?
- [06:57]
Abby Wambach
Well, I think what's really interesting is something that, like, really hit me. When you were talking about Naomi Osaka and Simone Biles. Do you remember when Simone had the twisties, I think that's what they call it. And she decided no longer to compete in the Olympics. There was something that happened in my body when that time was going and I was talking with Glennon about it, and I was like, there was a part of me that didn't know you could advocate for yourself in that way. And so it was like there was a part of me that was like, come on, like, just, just do it. Like, this is the Olympics. Like, you just do whatever you need to do in order to get the Olympic medal that you're searching for. And so it was really an interesting thing that was happening. Like watching somebody do something in a big way, right? Like, this was a huge deal for her and a huge deal for her team. And, and what she was doing is she was like really prioritizing her mental health and her body and her safety. And I had never learned to do that. So watching somebody walk steps of a healthy person was very triggering to me. I was. There was also. There was kind of a part of me that was like, had this jealous envy that was like, I didn't know you could do that. You know, it's essentially like calling in sick when you actually are sick. I didn't know, like, this happened at the very end of my career as well. I went into the training room and the youngest player in the team walked into the training room. I'd been in there for an hour getting my old ass body ready for training that day. And this, the youngest kid walks into the training room and. And she just looked at the trainers and said, I'm not feeling well. I'm going to go back to bed. And she walked back and just walked out of the training room and went back to her room, went back to bed.
- [08:49]
Julie Foudy
Is that allowed?
- [08:50]
Abby Wambach
And I looked around and I was like, we can do that. I had no idea. I know I had no access to be able to take care of myself in some ways. And some of it was because we weren't brought up in that. In the era of even talking about mental health, and we didn't have the services really at our fingertips that I think the team might have nowadays. But my story kind of begins a little bit when I was a kid. I think being raised in a huge family like I was set me up for success in so many ways. It really set me up to be an incredible athlete. You know, they never let me win. They were always competing. They were athletes themselves. But it also set me up to be striving to get the attention of my mom, because her attention was split between seven human beings. She could only. She could only be looking at one of us at a time, you know? And so I do think that there's a big part of me that believes that I became an Olympian and a world champion in order to get my mother's attention. Like, there is a real part of me that. That truly believes that. And of course, there's lots of other parts of me that were, like, you know, ambitious and courageous, all of that. But it kind of comes down to that for me. And I think over the course of my career, the greater the mountains that I climbed, the greater achievements that I was able to get. Get. I always thought that. That. That would be the thing that made me feel complete. Like, once I get that gold medal, once I get that World cup championship, once I win Player of the Year, I will finally feel like the worthy person that I might be impersonating in a way. And it was. It was truly, I. I mean, right after I got Player of the Year, my statistics started to drop because I realized. I looked at myself in the mirror that night in Switzerland. They've just given me the Best Player of the World award. And there was just no there. There. There was no. Whatever I was searching for was not there. And it felt like a. I kind of. I felt like my world came crashing down in a way, because, like, my whole striving, like, what was I doing this for? Gets a little compromised and confused. And so, honestly, I really struggled with drinking. I was always a binge drinker. I could go many weeks without drinking because we'd be on the road or traveling or playing games. And for a long time, I never mixed playing and drinking. I would drink when I was home and hang out with my friends. And the way that I told myself that it would make sense is, oh, I play hard, and then I work hard, and I play hard. And so when I would go and train with the national team, I'd work as hard as I could, and when I'd go home, I would party and hang out with my friends and do all the things that they were able to do, because I never wanted to feel like I was missing out, even though I knew I was missing out being on the road. And. And this is the thing that I've now learned many years later. I've. I'm ten years sober. I. I learned that. I know it is. Actually, it happened in April.
- [12:26]
Billie Jean King
I realized midway.
- [12:27]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, midway through April, I was like, oh, my God, I'm. I've been 10 years sober.
- [12:32]
Julie Foudy
What is your. What is your sobriety anniversary? I need to put that in my account.
- [12:35]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, it's the 2nd of April. It's is the day that I was arrested for a DUI in downtown Portland, where I was living at the time. And I will never forget being in that jail, being completely mortified, completely heartbroken. I didn't have. I was wearing Birkenstocks. Cause you know, when you go to jail, they take the shoelaces out of your shoes. Yeah, it is funny. I was a lesbian wearing Birkenstocks, you know, And I remember for the first half of that jail stint, I thought, I don't belong here. And then at the. The second half of it, as I started to sober up, I thought, oh, this is exactly where I belong. And it was like the most humbling next few days because the camera crews, all the news channels were just camped out outside of my house. My. My mug shot was on the ticker of the ESPN channel for, like, weeks straight. I was just. I was so embarrassed. I felt like I let all of my teammates down. And there was something that happened that night in the jail that, like, the light turned off of the. The addict drinking part of myself. And I promised myself and the honor that I. That I truly have around the representation of being a national team player, that. And I know disease is disease and mental health is mental health, but this is the thing that I was like, I can't. This is something I just can't do anymore. That's just like. It is. No, I am no longer a person who drinks. And that's gonna have to be okay. In fact, Glennon was the first sober person I ever met, like, truly sober person, which was kind of cool, really.
- [14:22]
Julie Foudy
And that's right about when you met Glennon, right?
- [14:24]
Abby Wambach
We met a few. Yeah, we met a few weeks later. And so we for sure would have missed each other had I not gotten the dui. I mean, at the time, it was the worst thing that ever happened to me. And since then, I now see it as the very best thing that has ever happened to me. Because the greatest things, even though I did wonderful things in my life, the greatest things in my life have happened, have happened since getting sober in these last 10 years. I mean, there's no way I'm sitting here talking to you all if I'm still drinking. There's no way I have ambition and drive at 45 years old. And the truth is, right away, I was forced into therapy. Like, it wasn't a go if you want kind of situation. The court ordered me to go to therapy, and that was the greatest thing ever. They were like, it was a court ordered therapist. So, of course, since then I've gotten my own therapist. And just getting into a space where you can talk to somebody, it's just been. It's been the most incredible experience to get to know all the different parts of myself. And I do what's called IFS therapy, internal family systems, which I think a lot of people who are listening to this show would really benefit from, because it's a team therapy approach. Meaning we have, you know, the inside out animated movies. Inside out one, Inside out two. They're so cute. Yeah. Yeah. That is based on the IFS approach. So you have the different parts of your. You have joy, you have envy, you have anger, and. And. And so it takes this like a team approach system and allows you to not get, you know, you know, sometimes we get. We get angry, sometimes we get. And these parts are all inside of us. So I have, like a team of parts. So I look at my. At my approach to psychology now as a very much an athlete and a team person, but I'm like, oh, the jealousy part has really gotten online right now. Anyways, so I have, you know, I've gone through times where I. I've gotten less happy and more depressed, and I've gone through times where I'm more happy and more joyful and learning how to navigate the parts and the emotions that come in life has just been such a. It feels like a miracle, you know, from being an athlete that you are told exactly what to do what numbers you have to hit, and it doesn't matter how you feel about it. You have to do this stuff. Therapy is this really different approach. Right. It's like you actually think about and talk about your feelings.
- [17:25]
Julie Foudy
Your evolution abs is equally impressive to me as what you did as an athlete.
- [17:33]
Abby Wambach
Thank you.
- [17:34]
Julie Foudy
Not more so. Like, thank you. To watch you excel as an athlete and be a teammate alongside you and then watch you also go through the struggles of what you just talked about and see you come out of that. I was with you that summer of 2016 when we were covering the men's European Championship in Paris and we were running a lot, and we were talking about Glennon and being sober and all these things. And I mean, you were fighting it. You were fighting it to change your lifestyle and what you wanted to become, and to see you evolve in this beautiful way and really be doing so well. And it just, like, it gives me tears because I know it's been such a journey, and I just am so, so proud of you on so many levels.
- [18:26]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. I was so afraid to retire. I was going through a divorce from my first marriage. At the time, I didn't know what soccer, I didn't know what to do after soccer. And I didn't understand why I was still playing soccer in a lot of ways, because it was providing me with healthcare and it was providing me with a paycheck. And I didn't love the fact that I was doing it for that reason alone. And so. And I know a lot of athletes out there, it can become a job. And so the fact that, like, we've spoken to Lauren Betts about this, to try to not make it so intense and try to find the joy. I mean, all the athletes we talk to, one of the things, the themes of their lives is like, how do I keep this fun? How do I remember why I started doing this in the first place? And the alcohol side and the prescription drugs. Because, know, towards the end of my career, I was also getting prescribed a ton of prescription drugs by doctors so that I could actually perform. And for any kind of person who deals with any addiction stuff or the ability to. To say no, you know, that became a problem as well. And it's just, you know, I've been tenured sober. I'm more proud of my sobriety than maybe anything in my life, because I, I, my. My children will never have seen me inebriated a single day of my life, which is one of the greatest accomplishments, knowing that if the hit the fan in their life, they can call me and Glennon, and they know for a fact that we will be able to show up for them no matter what. Like, we don't need to get an Uber. We don't need to, like, figure something out in order to get to the hot, you know, whatever it might be. That just gives me a lot of pride. So, yeah, mental health.
- [20:25]
Julie Foudy
I love it.
- [20:26]
Abby Wambach
It's a good time.
- [20:28]
Billie Jean King
Wow.
- [20:28]
Julie Foudy
Kinger, you're gonna be coming up next. We're gonna take a little break, but you've been. You've been open about your experience with an eating disorder. I still don't think many people know about your struggles, and I know you are willing to do this, and we thank you for that. We'll dig into that next.
- [20:52]
Abby Wambach
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- [21:24]
Julie Foudy
And let me tell you, I have to fight the family to get on the pel. The Peloton Cross Training Tread plus, lately, yeah, everyone is on it. They're all doing the swivel, they're doing the cross training. I'm like, listen, yo, this is mine.
- [21:37]
Abby Wambach
Get off.
- [21:38]
Julie Foudy
It's built around you too. Your pace, your energy, what you need that day. It's like having a roadmap, which we all want, but without the pressure. So Peloton IQ gives you the level of support you deserve. And let's be clear. Us women deserve tools, support, and experiences built for us and around us and, of course, our potential.
- [22:02]
Abby Wambach
Exactly. So whether you're running or lifting or just trying something new or. Jules, even feeling a little along the way, you're still moving forward. Let yourself run, lift, fail, try and go again. Explore the new peloton cross training tread plus@1peloton.com whenever I really try to go all out planning a dinner party or even, like, a slightly more involved meal
- [22:30]
Julie Foudy
than usual, because you are the cooker in the house, right?
- [22:33]
Abby Wambach
Yes. I always make it all the way until the end before realizing I'm missing, like, one key ingredient. Right. So, like, you're in the finishing stages of the prepping. You're. You're lime basil chicken. And then you realize you forgot the limes.
- [22:50]
Julie Foudy
Yeah. Kind of important.
- [22:52]
Abby Wambach
Yes. And that is where Shipt has genuinely, like saved me more than once. Not only do I trust the shoppers with Shipt with those really quick runs, I really trust them to pick the best limes because, you know, sometimes you just don't know what you're going to get with some of these other places. But with Shipt, they actually do it well. They'll text me when, when they're shopping, check in if something's out, make sure I get exactly what I need. They truly just go above and beyond. So use code podcast to get a year of shipt for only $49 half off of the regular $99 price@shipt.com offer. That's S-H IPT.com offer terms apply.
- [23:35]
Julie Foudy
This of welcome to the party is brought to you by Alloy Health. Almost half of women wait over three years to seek relief from menopause symptoms.
- [23:45]
Abby Wambach
Do you know why I'm doing it now?
- [23:48]
Julie Foudy
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- [25:05]
Abby Wambach
Yo.
- [25:06]
Julie Foudy
I have a feeling that you and I do vacations very similar. We are active, we are hiking, we are moving, we are pickleballing. We're surfing. We're doing it. All right.
- [25:16]
Abby Wambach
Yes. My family and Jules, my family, we like to find one of the most like unpopular hikes. So I guess uncrowded is the way. Like we don't want to be on the most popular trail.
- [25:30]
Julie Foudy
Right.
- [25:30]
Abby Wambach
So we go down these rabbit holes of like finding off the beaten path.
- [25:35]
Julie Foudy
Right?
- [25:35]
Abby Wambach
Trails. Do you guys do that or you guys popular trail?
- [25:39]
Julie Foudy
No, I like, I like the path less traveled.
- [25:41]
Abby Wambach
For sure. For sure.
- [25:43]
Billie Jean King
Yeah.
- [25:43]
Abby Wambach
And, and, and that because of that, you have to prepare for all circumstances. And by the way, let's just say it now, family vacation is not vacation. It's trips. There's no such thing as family vacation
- [25:57]
Julie Foudy
when you have kids.
- [25:58]
Abby Wambach
Exactly.
- [25:59]
Billie Jean King
Okay.
- [25:59]
Abby Wambach
When you have children, they're trips.
- [26:02]
Julie Foudy
We actually did a hike that's really popular because it's, it's so good. When we were in Kauai last year, that waterfall hike, that's hard. It's really hard.
- [26:12]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [26:13]
Julie Foudy
Way up high, you pass Hanalei Bay, you keep going. You have to take a shuttle in and because it's so long. We know. And I've done this hike before where I didn't bring enough water and electrolytes when I was younger. And so I told the kids. So the kids and I and Ian, we just like started shoving liquid IV packets in everything we could in the backpacks and pockets so that when we were on this hike and I. And I'm like, you have to bring enough water. Because the thing about those adventures and, and long, long travels and hikes like that, they wipe you out. So that's where liquid IV has become. Are non negotiable. I literally throw those packets in and you can tear one open while you're hiking and just dump it in your water.
- [27:04]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. And, and you can really feel the difference because, Jules, I don't know if you know this. It's powered by their live hydro science formula, like an optimized ratio of electrolytes, vitamins, and clinically tested nutrients that hydrate faster than water alone. And Jules, it's going to keep you hydrated for up to four hours. So that's not, that's not nothing. When you're running and, and, and hiking some of the, and, and going on these long hikes like, like you did in Kauai.
- [27:34]
Julie Foudy
Okay, you know what my go to flavor is?
- [27:37]
Abby Wambach
What?
- [27:37]
Julie Foudy
Have you tried this one?
- [27:38]
Abby Wambach
No.
- [27:39]
Julie Foudy
Pina colada.
- [27:40]
Abby Wambach
Pina colada. I've not tried that. Oh, I.
- [27:45]
Julie Foudy
It is. Is as if you were drinking a pina colada. It's clean, it's refreshing, it's not too sweet. What's your fave?
- [27:52]
Abby Wambach
Oh, good. White, white, peach.
- [27:54]
Julie Foudy
Okay. I love peaches.
- [27:56]
Abby Wambach
I'm such a peach person.
- [27:57]
Julie Foudy
Okay. And if you want sugar free, that's Your white peach one. You got that? You got rainbow sherbet. Fun. So wherever your curiosity takes you, bring Liquid IV. Go to Liquid I.com and get 20% off your first order with code. Welcome to the party at checkout. That's 20% off with code. Welcome to the party at liquid@liquidiv.com. tear poor. Live more. Hike more, party more. Before we dive into your story, Kinger, here are some statistics I wanted to give you from the Kevin Love Fund about why early awareness is so important and why having an entire month dedicated to talk about these things is so critical. So, parents, please listen up. Depression is one of the leading causes of illness and disability among adolescents worldwide. 50% of mental health conditions begin by age 14, but most go, as we know, undetected and untreated. The average gap between symptom onset and getting help, y'. All. Do you know what?
- [29:12]
Billie Jean King
That is a lot?
- [29:14]
Julie Foudy
11 years.
- [29:15]
Billie Jean King
Yeah, I would have guessed at least 11.
- [29:16]
Abby Wambach
That rings true to me.
- [29:18]
Julie Foudy
Wow.
- [29:19]
Billie Jean King
Oh, for sure.
- [29:20]
Julie Foudy
Okay. So, Kinger, when did you start to see signs that you might have an issue? Was it when you were younger or in your adulthood?
- [29:30]
Billie Jean King
Well, after I went to therapy, I started to figure it out. At the time, I didn't. But, you know, I'm at the era when you didn't talk about your sexuality. You just did not. And even if gay kids were hanging out and we didn't even know if they're gay half the time, you know, you don't know. We didn't talk about was really horrible. And then, of course, being married to Larry, who I adored and loved, I mean, I fell in love with him from across the room. But then as we were going through our marriage, I started to realize that I like women, too. And I'm like, oh, God, this isn't. I didn't. I tried to broach the subject with him, but he had trouble. I don't think he realized he was having trouble. But we've talked since, and now he goes, I wish I had known more what you were going through. And when I did try to talk to you, he had trouble. So I'd asked for a divorce in 1969, and he said, no way, we're forever. And I got that. I got that when we got married, it was going to be forever. And then when we started the tour in 71, some people kind of knew things were going on. And then Marilyn Barnett, who I had an affair with, came on the tour for a while. I mean, so everybody kind of knew things were. But the sponsor came up to me and said, if you say one word about what you're feeling, feeling, we will not have a women's tour.
- [30:54]
Abby Wambach
Oh, my God.
- [30:54]
Billie Jean King
Well, that made that really simple, didn't it?
- [30:56]
Abby Wambach
Yep.
- [30:57]
Billie Jean King
Well, I mean, we're not going to have a tour. If I say something that's not happening, I'm not going to say anything. And then I was struggling, and my parents are homophobic, so I'm going through all this turmoil. And of course, you know, my doc's coming out later this year. It's been in festivals, and I talk all about it. I mean, I just let it rip. I didn't hold back because I think it's important. Also, it's important to feel your feelings. Feel my feelings, which I kept trying to push down through the food. I mean, drinking's the same as eating. Overeating, we get numb. It helps us not feel okay. And when you're numb, it's a great feeling. It's a feeling, but it's not a feeling. So to feel your feelings, to try to and know it's okay, that's another thing. It was such shame based when I was growing up. I mean, now it's so wonderful when I hear someone say, oh, we're going to get married, whether it's a straight couple or whether it's a gay couple, I don't care. And nobody seems to care. It's great. Now everybody goes, oh, congratulations. Are you kidding? I love that fact because that's what we were fighting for and continue to fight for the LGBT community. So it's. It was horrible. It was just absolutely. And I'm trying to play tennis. Oh, yeah. I'm trying to play. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And we're trying to change the system, you know, I wanted.
- [32:20]
Julie Foudy
And shove all of that down to your point.
- [32:22]
Billie Jean King
I'm shoving everything down. One thing I'm very good at, and I'm very lucky that I have this quality or not quality. I don't know. Whatever. How you want to look at it at the time is I can compartmentalize really quickly on the court, off the court. I love playing because that was my sanctuary. That was the one time nobody can talk to me. Nobody. I loved it. Like, I go to center court at Wimbledon. I go out on that court and I go, oh, this is like a sanctuary. It's like being in a church for me, because nobody can bother me. Nobody can hassle me. I didn't have a sponsor hassle me. I didn't have a player needing something. I didn't have anything and also we're trying to create all these things. And the WTA, the Women's Attendance association, our tour, when we started this was very important to have a staff to take care of us. Okay? We have done mental health since the late 80s. In women's tennis, the notices on the back of the doors of the bathroom, so when you shut the door and start, just look at the door and you can't miss it. It says, if you have any problems and everything will be private. Nobody will ever know about this. And we've been doing this forever. Let's say you're a player that needs to get away from your coach or your parent or parents. They get lawyers, they get the different organizations, they get everybody in it. If you haven't heard one thing, have you never. We have done so much for so many players to get out of their situation. Maybe they have an abusive coach or an abusive parent or somebody. It's amazing what goes on. But we keep it private. We get help for the players, which costs a lot of money, you guys. I mean, it's just not like, oh, boom, boom. So I do get upset. I know people won't know about it, which is good because the player has their privacy. And like, Abby did not have her privacy. Like, she had to go to jail. I mean, she's in jail having to deal with this. I mean, are you kidding? Although I can see it was a gift now. But it's like, no, it would have been good if she could have gone through this privately as well. You know, as you were going through
- [34:32]
Julie Foudy
your struggles when Kinger, did you start to realize that you had an eating disorder?
- [34:38]
Abby Wambach
Good question.
- [34:39]
Billie Jean King
Actually, I had known for a long time. I mean, when I play a tournament and win, oh my God, it was the greatest the next day, because I wasn't playing that week. The next week, it's great. I binge ice cream, candy. I love sugar, which is alcohol, by the way. So it's the same shit. Sorry to say the bad word, but it is. Yeah, it's true. So it's just learning to be in touch with what I was feeling and what people. I just want everyone who's listening to understand that, you know, I think one big question is, am I in touch with my feelings? Am I shame based in anything? Shame is huge when you're shame based.
- [35:21]
Abby Wambach
You're.
- [35:22]
Billie Jean King
It's trouble. So when I was okay, I finally said, I have to go get help. So I talked to a couple of my friends who were clinical psychologists. I need to go and, and just give it Up. And they all, they said, why don't you go to Renfrew in Philadelphia? So I went there, lived there for six weeks with all us other eating disorder beats. And most of them were 16, 17, 18, 19. And I was 50, so I was one. There's like three of us that were older, but the kids. And they all had an. They're all anorexic, every one of them, the young ones. And of course there are very few binge eaters like me. But it's all the same thing. It's about food. And the one thing is you cannot give up food to live.
- [36:09]
Abby Wambach
Yep.
- [36:10]
Billie Jean King
So that creates a dilemma.
- [36:12]
Abby Wambach
Yep.
- [36:13]
Billie Jean King
Drinking stop. Right. You cannot do that with food. So you have to really learn to manage to stay in touch with my feelings. Your feelings? Oh, it is. Oh, you have to eat, don't you? I mean, you're gonna die.
- [36:25]
Julie Foudy
Comparison to being sober. You can't just stop, right?
- [36:29]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, you can't stop.
- [36:30]
Billie Jean King
Elton John and I talk about this a lot. Elton went to a place for three drugs, drinking and food. And they always start with the food because you cannot give that up. And that's the. And he said that was his hardest one was the food issue. Everyone.
- [36:49]
Abby Wambach
And so what, what year was this that you went to Renfrew?
- [36:52]
Billie Jean King
So this is 1995. I went to Rentru. I was 50. 50 or 51. Really old. Can you imagine? So can you imagine being individual three
- [37:04]
Abby Wambach
times a week, just like Billie Jean? Can you imagine being the 28 year old in there being like, hi, Billie Jean King.
- [37:13]
Billie Jean King
It was very interesting. And then we had a class every hour. Man, they don't let up. I had a great family therapist. I've had a great therapist every. In fact, I still have therapy every Wednesday. And I still have the same therapist I had at Renfrew. Thank God she was younger than I was because I still have the same therapist.
- [37:32]
Abby Wambach
Wow.
- [37:32]
Julie Foudy
So 30 years.
- [37:34]
Billie Jean King
Yep. 95 to now, whatever. And I'm. And I really, really. Anybody out there listening and you're struggling, please, please take care of yourself and please get some help. It will change your life. And make sure that therapist is somebody you like. Please go get help. Ask for help. And you know, girls are taught not to ask for what we want and need. We really are our messaging from the time we're born. And I don't know about younger women, but my generation and everybody I've noticed is that we still frowned upon to ask for what we want and need. We're frowned upon. Well, look at. If you look at all the commercials. What the world is telling women is we're not quite good enough. We're not quite good enough. So we gotta figure out how to be good enough and strong, you know, and it's like, you're great the way you are. You are great the way you are. So stop judging and make sure you do feel your feelings. Don't try to numb your feelings and then get some help and ask for what you want and need. It's good. It's strong to ask for what you want and need. Not weak. It's strong. And it's hard for us because our, the socialization that goes on for men and women and others is just, it's difficult. I mean, boys are socialized the opposite. They always have to be strong. They always have to. No, you do not ask for help. It's okay.
- [39:03]
Julie Foudy
And I cannot tell you how important it is that two iconic athletes like yourself who have had these uber successful careers are talking this way because it normalizes it and it tells people that like, yes, we all, regardless of our journey, are going to go through some things. So I just, most important, I want to thank you for sharing and taking the time to share those stories because it does, it does make a difference. And I also love that you talked about how important therapy has been as part of your recovery. Lauren Betts talked about it. We, we talked a little bit about the Kevin Love Fund. But there's a lot of other great free resources and communities out there. We're going to put them in our, our show notes. You were, you were talking about Renfrew, which is specifically with eating disorders. There's also hidden opponent. There's the Jed Foundation, Active Minds Born this Way Foundation, Voice in Sport in communities like Hope for Athletes, Athletes for Hope, which I sit on the board for, and Allston for Athletes. So a lot of great resources. And we'll link all of these in the show notes so you can easily find them. And just a reminder that like, the goal isn't to remove hard things from sports or life because as we know, competition is hard, growth is hard, life is hard. But I just think it's important to re emphasize that no championship, scholarship, contract or medal should come at the cost of your mental health. And some of, as we've just seen, some of the strongest people in sports are the ones who have seen stepped forward and said, I'm not okay. I need help, and started to move that conversation forward because at the end of the day, literally, sports are here to build character and connection and confidence and community and Joy and all these things that help us grow stronger mentally.
- [41:13]
Billie Jean King
It bothers me that when I see particularly young people trying to make it in whatever their sport is, is that they keep judging themselves with the results. And you have to divide that. You cannot say, I'm a bad person, I just lost that match, or we lost that game or whatever. Stop that. Forget that you're human. It's okay. We're human. Did you try your best? That's all that matters. That's why when my parents didn't ask my brother and me, did we win? My parents never ask us if we won. And I want all the parents out there, don't ask your child if he or she or they won. Okay? Let them tell you. They'll tell you. Believe me. Most of the time, at least my thing. Oh, we're terrible.
- [41:57]
Abby Wambach
Yep. I totally agree, Billy. And I think one, one of the things, if you're listening to this and you have an athlete or you are an athlete, we are much more complicated than any of us know. Right. And the physical and the statistics and the data is just one part. It's like one function of what being a full 360 athlete is. And, and the human part is, is like, it's almost the thing that matters even more than the physical or the talent. And that's something that I've really leaned into, especially with, with, with having, you know, young athletes in our family. It's why Glennon asks Emma essentially on a weekly basis, like, do you still want to keep playing soccer? You know, like, how are, how is your mental health? Are you overwhelmed? And sometimes she is and sometimes she's not. And so it's just like having the conversation and communicating with our kids about where they're at, like, how you feeling? And not like, how was school blanket. It's like, how are you feeling right now? What's going on in the insides? Like, are you feeling happy, you're feeling sad? Are you feeling stressed? Especially for high school seniors, like right now they're stressing. So it's just been. Yeah, yeah. Mental health is important.
- [43:19]
Julie Foudy
Yeah. Because then that connects it for them too, right?
- [43:21]
Abby Wambach
Totally. Totally.
- [43:23]
Julie Foudy
Yeah. This is all really good. And this is why I, I just don't think this is a 31 day conversation in May, right?
- [43:29]
Billie Jean King
No, no. We should talk about this all very often.
- [43:32]
Abby Wambach
Often.
- [43:33]
Julie Foudy
365 days.
- [43:34]
Billie Jean King
Absolutely. We should bring this up whenever it's appropriate. I don't like to, I don't like. It's called mental health, quite frankly. I always want, I call it mental and emotional health. And if I had to choose, I probably would say emotional because that's what we're really talking about.
- [43:51]
Julie Foudy
It's not.
- [43:51]
Billie Jean King
It's not what you think. It's what you feel that we're talking about. And that's what's important. What do you feel? You know, not what do you think. What do you feel? And you got. And getting in touch with your feelings or my feelings. I'll say here I'll take ownership is. Is difficult sometimes, but boy, does it help. It really trips so good.
- [44:14]
Julie Foudy
Thank you both.
- [44:15]
Billie Jean King
I've got some other chapters I don't know about.
- [44:18]
Julie Foudy
Billy's like, I'm just getting started.
- [44:20]
Billie Jean King
Well, I know I've lived a lot longer than you guys. That that's another reason you have more his the more. The longer you live, the more history you have. I mean, more chapters. Yep.
- [44:28]
Julie Foudy
But yeah, party people, don't forget to subscribe to the welcome to the party YouTube channel. Click that little bell icon so you can get updates when new episodes go live.
- [44:39]
Abby Wambach
And if you can just take one minute, we would appreciate it if you could rate. Leave a comment and subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure as always, check right now. Are you following us on Instagram or YouTube and. And do that comment.
- [44:55]
Julie Foudy
We love our comments so much and
- [44:58]
Billie Jean King
comments help us the most.
- [45:00]
Abby Wambach
Yep. And then do that at the welcome to the Party show, wherever you get your socials. And that is where Julie, Billy and I, we're gonna bring bring this party straight to your feed. So don't forget, follow us there. You can also email us at party people questions gmail.com Kate Diaz. We love our music still, y'.
- [45:18]
Billie Jean King
All.
- [45:18]
Abby Wambach
Bring it in for an oosa. Let's go. Ooh, King or countess in. Okay.
- [45:23]
Billie Jean King
Why do I always have to go? At least I can. Okay, here we go. One, two, three.
- [45:33]
Abby Wambach
Welcome to the Party is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. Initial Digital is our production partner and you can also watch our full conversations on the welcome to the party YouTube channel and follow us at welcome to the Party show on Instagram and TikTok. Thanks for listening.