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- [00:01]
A
Attention.
- [00:04]
B
The party is about to commence.
- [00:11]
C
Welcome to the party. What's up, party people? I'm Julie Foudy.
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B
And I'm Abby Wambach.
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D
And I'm Billie Jean King Kinger.
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B
Yeah, baby.
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C
We have been wanting to do a bigger multi part series that, as you all know, the three of us have been talking about slows down one of the most emotionally charged conversations in women's sports, and that's around trans women and intersex athletes. And literally our goal is to not tell people what to think. Our goal is to create a space, space for thoughtful, compassionate, curious, informed conversation around transgender athletes, fairness, inclusion, and literally what the future of women's sports could look like. So we're going to kick it off today and I'm excited about that.
- [01:13]
B
Yeah. And I think that for me, this topic has become kind of so over politicized and we've, we've forgotten about what sports are actually about. Right. And I want to be honest about my initial confusion when I first became kind of aware of, you know, trans athletes and trans women in sports. I had a lot of fear, I think, and I, I was really scared to talk about it, not only publicly, but even to my people, because I was afraid of making a mistake or, or misgendering somebody or saying the wrong pronoun. And, and it's taken me a long time to not just learn, but to in. Because we've all been raised in such a binary world, right? Like you're, you're either male or female. And so if you are listening to this and you can see yourself in some of that, of what I just said, I think that this conversation and the many that we will continue to have beyond this one is for you. Because this is not going to be perfect, right? Like I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to maybe say the wrong thing or, or, or misgender somebody or I'm going to try not to. But I want there to be space for people to be humans in the learning of the ideas that we are going to be discussing today. And as my friend Andrea Gibson said so beautifully, it's, it's really about the trying that matters.
- [02:50]
C
I love that. Yeah, it is about the trying. Kinger, what about you?
- [02:55]
D
I've just want to learn. I want to keep. I just want to keep learning because I've known about this since the 70s. I've talked to people. I always ask questions, I always apologize before I talk to a trans kid or a person, say, I'm gonna mess up, but I'm really interested. I want to learn, you know, and they're always great. I must tell you. Everyone's been great. So we just need to be open as human beings first. That's it. Just listen and learn and stop wanting everyone to be like you. I mean, that's. When you look at politics, you look at everything. It's like you guys, you gotta make room for everybody. Everybody matters. So come on. It's been so politicized though. That's what I don't like. I don't like it. The way it's been used, the way that trans have been used. I don't like it. I think it's really, I think it's abusive.
- [03:47]
B
Yeah. And Jules, what about you?
- [03:49]
C
Yeah, same. I've been afraid of saying the wrong thing. Very similar to you abs of like I don't know enough about it. I should know more. Even doing this three part episode, honestly, it was like we were pushing it off because I felt like I, I gotta, I gotta have time to research, I gotta have time to learn more. I have to read the books, I have to, I have to do all the things and instead of just to Andrea Gibson's point, just try and just have the conversation and learn while you're doing it. Whatever your take is on this issue, all we ask is that you promise us you will hear us out. We're too learning as, as we go. We want to ask, as I said, a lot of questions and we ask that you take this ride with us. Most importantly, when you feel that angst rising in your throat, please just take a moment to listen longer and see if it makes sense. That's all we ask. So before we bring on the authors of fair game, Dr. Anna Bathe and Ellie Rosher, we would like to set the table for, for y' all to give you some context of what the current landscape looks like here in the United States for trans athletes and trans women in sports. And, and really some of the numbers involved. So first off this number, trans athletes make up less than 1% of all sports participants at all levels. I'm going to say that again. Trans athletes make up less than 1% of all sports participants at. And that's all levels, y'. All. So we're talking elite, college, high school, youth, recreational levels. Okay. So starting in 2019, a handful of trans athletes started attracting attention in the News. So between 2019 and 2024, you saw a large number of local and state and national bills and policies were set in place to ban trans athletes from sports. So by the end of 2023, over 500 anti trans bills were introduced in 47 states.
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B
That's crazy.
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C
By the summer of 2024, 26 states had introduced anti trans sports bills. By 2025, there were 13 times more state anti trans sports bills proposed than there were out trans trans athletes. Okay. So clearly I hope what you see in those numbers is there is a fear of trans athletes taking over the women's sports space. And honestly, like I can understand that fear as an athlete who has worked so hard to ensure Title 9 is alive and well, but we're hoping when you see these numbers, and we're going to take a deeper dive into the numbers. Right. That that may change some of your perspective and of course influence that fear that maybe you are feeling. Because here's a deeper dive in the number of trans athletes at the top levels and then we're going to go down. Right. So at the Olympic and Paralympic levels, the top of the pyramid. Right. They had a policy, actually, the IOC from 2003 to 2021. Right. So before the Tokyo Olympic Games, more than 540,000 athletes competed in the Olympic Games and not a single one was trans. The the 21 Tokyo Summer Games had two openly trans women competing. One an alternate on the BMX USA team, the other a New Zealand weightlifter, Laurel Hubbard, who failed to log a single successful lift in the first round and won no medals. So two out of 540,000 athletes in those 20 plus years of Olympic competition have been trans women. And FYI, that is.00221%, mind you. Again,.00221%. So also on the collegiate level, to give you a sense of those numbers, NCAA President Charlie Baker testified to Congress in December 2024.
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A
How many athletes are there in the United States in NCAA schools?
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C
510,000.
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A
How many transgender athletes are you aware of?
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B
Less than 10.
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A
Less than 10 out of 510,000.
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E
Yep.
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C
This specific count includes both trans men and trans women, making the number of trans women less than 10 athletes nationwide. And let's just say half are trans women of those 10. Right. And that's.0098%. Who would be if you gave half of those 10 athletes as trans women would be trans women, which is not even 1/1,000th of a percentage. Even if you said all 10 were trans women of those 10, which we know they are not. 0.00196. So not even 2/1,000th of a percent are trans women that are competing at the collegiate level. Yet on February 5, 2025. President Trump signed Executive Order 142 01, titled Keeping Men out of Women's Sports, effectively barring transgender women and girls from competing in female sports categories. Schools and bodies failing to comply risk losing federal funding. So the domino effect was. NCAA policy right away swiftly instituted a pro prohibition on athletes assigned male at birth from competing in women's sports categories in all divisions and all sports within the ncaa. USOPC also shifted to compliance. That's the United States Olympic and Paralympic Olympic Committee. They officially updated their athlete safety policy to comply with the federal requirements, aligning itself with bans on transgender women competing in the women's category. The pressure campaign also worked on the ioc, the International Olympic Committee. They recently announced their sweeping policy change that permanently restricts participation in the female category at the Olympics to biological females. That will be taking effect for the LA 28 Summer Games. And we will take a deep, deeper dive on this later. But they will be now using mandatory screening to determine if you are a female by using an SR Y gene test, as they call it. It will also be used to test female athletes who may have been born female but have elevated levels of testosterone. And again, it's worth noting here, according to the number that has been reported, right? 0.0003%. So three zeros of Olympic athletes, athletes between 2003 and the Tokyo Olympics, after the Tokyo Olympics, so in about 20 years, have been trans women, and none were anywhere near that podium. Okay? And the domino effect has been many national governing bodies who oversee all of youth sports and FYI, their mission, as we know, is to get more kids playing, giving kids more access and opportunity, have also adopted uniform exclusion standards banning kids, trans kids from playing, worried in part that they will no longer be sanctioned or receive federal funding. And the byproduct of all of this, all of this, is these bills, these orders, these new bands, which started as a way to try and ensure that women's sports at the highest level did not get compromised, have now been pushed down to ban young trans kids in sports. And often, as many trans athletes talk about, the only place a young trans athlete feels joy and acceptance is on the field. It's on the court. It's with their teammates while they're playing sports. And now these young kids are also banned from even doing that. Which is all to say, there is clearly a lot of uncertainty among the public, a lot of bills, a lot of testing targeted at women, and yet there are not a lot of trans women playing women's sports. So let's get into all of this and try and decipher the facts from the fear, which is our goal in all of this. And to help us do this, Dr. Anna Bathe and Ellie Rocher, the authors of Fair Game, Trans Athletes and the Future of Sports. And together they spent years researching this issue, but just as importantly, listening to the people living it. Anna is a former two sport athlete. She has her PhD in Kinesiology and studies gender inclusion in sports. Ellie is a former gymnast and softball player and author. And their work together combines science and history and policy and the stories of trans athletes whose voices, honestly, are often missing from this conversation. Anna and Ellie, welcome to the party.
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A
Thank you.
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E
Thanks for having us.
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A
Thank you.
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B
Welcome to the party. I lost my horn.
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A
We're here.
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D
We're usually much more rowdy than this. I can't believe Julie and Abby are being today. Usually.
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A
There it is.
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E
There it is.
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D
Usually they go a little crazier and I go right with them.
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A
I know.
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B
Yeah.
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C
First, maybe start with, why did. Why did you both want to write this book?
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A
I will say I didn't want to write a book, but Ellie convinced me that that's true.
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E
She did not want to write the book. That's right.
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A
Yeah. Yeah.
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D
Why do you write it? Why do you want to write it, Ellie?
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E
I love stories. I love. I really, deeply believe in narrative repair. And we weren't letting trans athletes tell their own stories. We are talking about them without talking to them. The. The horrible numbers on this one is that in the media pieces that we pull on trans athletes, less than 8% will name a trans athlete and less than 2 quote them. And so I love. I love sitting at people's feet and asking them to tell me the long version of the story. The longest version, they'll tell me. And I learned so much from sitting at the feet of trans athletes and be like, tell me, what does it feel like to be in your body? What does it feel like when you play sports? Like, we got to meet at that athlete to athlete, athlete level. And I learned so much about their embodied experience. And we're not hearing the. Their stories and their voices aren't getting to these policy tables, which is a mistake. So that's the short version of why I wanted to write Fair Game.
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C
Anna, why did you not want to write Fair Game?
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B
Yeah, great question.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Well,
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A
my story is a little complicated. I think there's a lot of fear for me. I. So I came into this work because I was hired by an LGBTQ nonprofit focused on Sport in 2019. So I was hired to lead research for them. And before that, I was a field hockey coach. I was a PhD student. And when I came into the work, I really came into it almost blind. I. I think if you would have asked me in 2019 what I thought about trans athletes, honestly, my first thought would have been, I don't know. But that feels like a really, really slippery slope. And the bottom line is, at that point, I had never knowingly met a trans woman athlete. But all of a sudden, I was getting all of these calls from people saying, hey, you're the researcher. You should know about trans athletes. What am I supposed to think about this? What are we supposed to do about it? And I had to get really clear really quickly on what we knew and what we didn't know. And so for about two years, I really started doing my research. But I'll say that for me, you know, my story is a pretty long one, because even in those two years, I was really nervous about what this meant for women's sport. Really nervous. So I hit the books even harder. And what I did is I literally called 42 endocrinologists to try and get somebody to explain testosterone to me. I called lawyers, I called former Olympic athletes 42.
- [16:36]
E
She's a nerd. She is the best nerd.
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D
Yeah, Anna, nerds rule. So you're on the right team here.
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A
Go sway. Especially sports nerds.
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E
That's right.
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A
But what I realized is
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E
there just
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A
wasn't a lot out there once I heard their stories. Frankly, I understood my own story in sports so much more. And I started to understand that my fear was real. Right. Like my own experiences as a woman in sport, there was a lot of fear tied up with that. But that fear wasn't the same as me being afraid of trans athletes. And I had to get clear on that. For me, a big part of writing this book was working through that fear. But I also think it was really just like getting curious and taking the time to stop relying on other people's fears and figuring out what I thought and what I wanted.
- [17:43]
B
It's this idea of fairness and humanity at the same time. Because there's so much of my process through this, you know, whether it was. I really do think it was fear. But how do you define fear? Fairness, as. As a thing, as. As like the North Star in sport? Right. How is fairness defined? How is it defined by national. National governing bodies? How's it defined by leagues? How's it defined by teams? How. How is it defined by teachers? Right. What is that word? And. And I like to think of myself as a very inclusive human being and, and a person who wants the best for the most amount of people. Like, I'm a humanitarian, I like, it's important to me. But those two things, sometimes because of the way that we're taught how to define the word fairness as athletes, and then as you go up the chain in professionalized sports, that term becomes much more rigid to the rule of the law of the game. Right. That you're playing. And so I really do want to hold space for people who struggle in that space where you are trying to redefine or understand what the word fairness means to you. And then also being a good person and not wanting to leave anybody out or exclude anybody. So I just want to hold space for that. And also I just want to say, the more I learn about this, the less my fear drives my thoughts and my body, and the more I learn about this, the more my rigidity around the definition of fairness has changed. Because sports are inherently unfair. And I, in my body,
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D
I'm a
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B
5 foot 11, 180 pound muscle. Well, at least when I played, nice problem when I played, I was, I'm a little bit less muscle now. And so it was inherently unfair for me to be going against somebody. Julie Foudy Size truly different positions, thank God, 135 pounds. So I just want to say this.
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C
Pure muscle mass.
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B
I say this and you know, you named the book Fair Game. Right. And so I would love for you to just both kind of comment on my comments. It's not even a question really. It's like, what do you have to say about what I just said? Am I doing the right thing? Because I know a lot of us are like, am I thinking the right thing? Am I saying the right thing? So you are the experts go, yeah.
- [20:41]
A
Well, I would start by saying there's no right or wrong. Right. But I think, Abby, you just named the crux of this for me. It's like, okay, we can all be inclusive until it comes to sports.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And that's so ironic because sport is what taught me one of the spaces that taught me to be truly inclusive. Right. Like, sport was one of the spaces where I really interacted with people who were not like me. That was, I mean, my parents were very clear, like, you are going to participate in sports because you've got to learn how to interact with people who are different than you. But aside from that, I mean, I think, you know, you name something that I don't think we talk about a lot because it's complicated, which is that sport is inherently unfair. And when I take a step back and I think about it, it's not just the genetic gifts, it's not just the physiological gifts. It's also a matter of who you are, where you were born, which family you were born into. You know, when we look at people who win at the highest levels of sport collectively, it's pretty clear they tend to be highly educated, they tend to be white, at least in the United States. They tend to come from two parent households with an income in the 90th percentile, and they tend to grow up in a place or have the ability to relocate to a place where they can be trained, where they can have access to the best coaches and facilities. And so when I think about, you know, is it fair and who gets to access sport in the first place, I mean, the people who never get to access sport are never going to win. And so I think a lot of what we need to talk about and a lot of what we can think about is how we make sport as a system fair. Right? For me, the bottom line is this fixation on fairness around trans athletes is a distraction from the documented unfairness of sports, like inequitable scholarships, pay gaps. I mean, you all know better than anyone, limited opportunities for lack of training, right? I'm, I don't know why we're talking about 1/2 of 1% of athletes when we should be talking about over half of athletes who are women athletes and what they think.
- [23:18]
E
Come on.
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B
Like, this is what gets me so crazy about. Let's go about. The whole conversation is like you're, you're, you're focusing on the smallest percentile versus over half of the human beings that are actually playing the sports. Like you don't give a shit about women's sports because if you did, then you would be actually thinking about all the other ways there's inequality. Sorry, go. I interrupted you. I just am so. It's just, it's. Keep going.
- [23:48]
A
I, I just think when, when I think about fairness and I think about that fear for me, of course I'm afraid because women's sports are scarce, right? Like, women are always fighting for access to sport. Always. We always have been. We still are. Right? So the fear that somebody is going to take away even more of that access, of course it invokes fear. But that doesn't mean I need to talk about trans athletes. It means I need to work with people to figure out how we make it better for all women and all girls. Ellie. Sorry, I've been going, no, why would you apologize?
- [24:30]
E
This is so, this is right. So we see this with, we see this with race as well. If we can divide black women and white women, we're not going to come together to fight like hell. Like if you can divide CIS women and trans women, you're distilling our power to actually work on equity in sport. Right. So the speed and the completeness that Julie talked about at the top with the numbers, Faith and I argue that this is an official moral panic. And for moral panic to take hold, there has to be fear. And fear can thrive in a scarcity mindset. And we have so much equity work to do in sports still. There's so much work to do. Those numbers make my body hurt so badly that if we can just laser focus on this problem, that's not a problem. The system just gets to stay inequitable because we're fighting each other. Right?
- [25:31]
B
That's right.
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C
So really, yeah, again, this is the thing that, that like blowed blows my mind when, when I have done the research now and I kick myself a million times over to, to your point, Anna, of the fear of not knowing stopping me from actually learning. And that's why we wanted to do this three part series is like, well, shit, I can fix that. I can actually dive in and know more about this. And when I started seeing again the numbers two trans women in the Olympics in the last between 2003 and through the Tokyo Games, two neither of them medaled. One was an alternate on the BMX team, one was a weightlifter from New Zealand. Right. According to the president of the NCAA and NCAA leadership, about two trans women among 510,000 NCAA athletes. Right. One quarter of 1% of youth athletes are trans. And so expending so much worry and fear around what?
- [26:45]
E
Yes. Like speaks to like.
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D
Okay, like speaks to like. You've got a very tiny percentage here. People you've been talking about fear, they don't understand it, they're fearful of it. And the only way you can change is by listening to their stories, as you said, and what you've been doing with your book Fair Game on the WTA, the women's tennis tour. We're the first ones to have Dr. Renee Richards play on the tour. And she came to us and wanted to play. And the women went nuts a little. And I was the president at the time as their leader. I said, let's everybody calm down and listen to each other. And they said, well, we don't want her. I said, well, wait a minute, we don't know anything about her. We don't know anything about trans. We don't know anything. So what I did is I went and talked to doctors. I went and met with Renee and listened for four hours straight with her and asked her a lot of questions. I eventually read her book, which was helpful. So she did play. It was a struggle because there was a lawsuit. I mean, there was a lot involved. But within two days, three days, all the women players went, oh, my God, she's so nice, and she's so great because they're so worried about the locker room and the shower, you know, everything. So much fear. And then they all loved her. So she became one of our best friends. And for Ilana, Klaus and me, my wife and I, Dr. Renee Richards has been our ophthalmologist until a couple years ago because she's now in her late 80s and she had to retire.
- [28:25]
B
Yeah. And I also think, you know, that it's really interesting. The way that I think about this is from a former pro athlete's perspective, the fear of, like, somebody, a trans woman, coming to take my spot. That was an interesting conversation that I needed to have with myself because I was like, wait, I'm not afraid of that. Like, I'm a competitor. Like, bring it on. And Billy, it makes me think of you and Bobby Riggs. Right? Like, you were like, I'm not even afraid to go to go play again tennis against a CIS man. Like, it actually does come down to confidence in your own body. And, you know, if I were playing right now and I had a trans woman on my team or a trans woman competing against me, that's going to make me a better athlete. If they are of the level, they're going to make me better. So that's when I got, like, the competitor side in me got less scared because I was like, bring it on. Like, it's going to make me better. And I know that I'm up for the challenge, you know. Okay, Jules. So I try to be pretty intentional about the products that I buy for my family. So when it comes to laundry, I really. I choose all free, clear detergent.
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C
I love this.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Because we're always talking about being mindful with what we eat or what we put into our bodies, but I actually never really thought about laundry detergent in the same way.
- [30:05]
B
Yeah, I know. Same. And. And when you really think about it, you're wearing these clothes all day, you're working out in them, you're traveling in them, sleeping in them, and then drying off after the Shower with them on. So I do think it matters. That's why I like that All Free clear uses only essential ingredients that Jules tackle tough stains and tough odors. We've got teenagers, I was gonna say.
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C
And you need that.
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B
It's exactly. It's gentle on the skin, so it's. It's also soft.
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C
Yeah. And it's 100 free from dyes and perfumes and parabens. And I feel that once you know that, you can't unknow it, which is a good thing.
- [30:49]
B
Totally. I know. And for me, between our kids and sports gear and just life, there's just always stains. Always stains. Like there's always something happening.
- [31:02]
C
Yeah, always. And honestly, I do feel like workout clothes and watch washing them and especially Declan's, like, layers of workout clothes and how many he puts on a day is a full time job.
- [31:17]
B
Exactly. But. But that's what's great, right? Because it actually works on all of that. But I still feel good about using it for everyone in the house and myself too.
- [31:28]
C
Yeah. I love that you can look at the back of the bottle and actually see what's in it and what each ingredient actually does. That level of transparency, by the way, is not just something you usually get with laundry detergent. Plus, my son Declan has really sensitive skin. He has some allergies, so I love that. As I was saying, there's no dyes or perfumes, since those can be irritating to his skin. And as we know, skin is an organ, we worry about what we put on the inside of our bodies. So we should also care about what touches our skin, too, with clothes and what we wash them in.
- [32:07]
B
I know. And that is why it makes it such an easy choice. Jules.
- [32:11]
C
It works. And it's a clean you can feel good about.
- [32:15]
B
Pick up a bottle of all free clear detergent for your next laundry.
- [32:18]
C
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- [36:00]
E
Well, yeah, I'm going to go back to Abby's point about sports being unfair. You know, like we can't create regulations about height and weight. So why do we want to create regulations about this one thing to promote fairness. And I also think it's just important to name that. Banning all trans athletes is, I'm gonna argue, is hurting everybody.
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A
Yes.
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E
It's distracting us from the real work that needs to be done in sports. I have to speak as a gymnast. Let's get real clear on who's doing harm and who's not. It's Larry Nassar, not trans women. And if we're putting time and energy and money into thinking it's trans women, we are not putting time and energy and money into keeping girls safe, actually. Safe.
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B
That's right.
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E
Okay. I think that banning trans all trans athletes hurts CIS boys, like the two that I'm raising, because we're telling them that it's not okay to be feminine, to let their feminine side take up space. And I think it's also harming CIS girls. Not only the ones who are going to be tested to prove that they're girls.
- [37:30]
B
That's right.
- [37:31]
E
And which girls get pulled and which don't, and how invasive that is and how unsafe that makes sport feel for CIS girls. But it also is telling them that boys and men are superior all the time in every sport because we're wrongly thinking that trans girls and women are men and then saying it's not fair. And so we're. These, these blanket bands are saying that all boys and men are superior to all girls and women in all sports at all ages, at all levels. And that needs to be regulated. I don't believe that that's true. So I think we do need to do some harder thinking. You know, like Baith did. We need to get real experts who know a little bit more about puberty and hormones. We need to look at sports. Every sport is different. Every sport highlights a different type of strength.
- [38:30]
A
Right.
- [38:31]
E
Look at a Simone Biles versus an Abby Wambach.
- [38:34]
B
Right.
- [38:35]
E
Like, and so it's really complicated and it's really particular. So we're gonna have to think really, really hard. But we have to do.
- [38:42]
D
Yeah. Each sports different. Like in tennis. In tennis, the guys are better than we are. There's no question. We've done all kinds of research on that. So I, I, I never would have played against somebody my age. Abby. Bobby was old and I and older. He was my dad's age is the reason I knew I could beat him. But if he'd been my age, probably would not have.
- [39:06]
B
But what I'll tell you about that,
- [39:08]
D
but gymnastics is different.
- [39:11]
B
We're talking about what the right is trying to sell us Is the fear that there is this slippery slope, that eventually all CIS men are going to transition to become women, so now they can take over women's sports. That is just not happening.
- [39:29]
D
It's not going to happen. People have no clue.
- [39:32]
B
Then that's not happening. Right. And so if we have.
- [39:35]
D
You're absolutely right, it's not happening.
- [39:37]
B
So we have to believe these trans women in, that they need this for their life, to survive, to be a person on the planet, because nobody in their right mind would do this.
- [39:51]
D
If that's what I keep telling people, if you ever sit down and listen to their story. It is so difficult, this decision.
- [39:59]
B
Yeah.
- [39:59]
D
Oh, my.
- [40:01]
B
It's a lot. And, and I think I want to just go back to what Julie was talking about, because I had a personal experience with our daughter in, in middle school, and she had a trans kid, a trans girl, on her middle school cross country team, and this trans girl was just faster than everybody. And I remember when I'm watching my kid, you know, do these, these cross country meets, I remember something in my body feeling like, oh, this, is this fair? Is this okay? Right. And Glennon and I are like, all of us parents, I understand, who are sitting on the sidelines, who are, who, who, who can maybe, if they have an experience with a trans kid that they're worrying for, for the quote, unquote, fairness of the actual sport that the, that their child is playing. Because when kids get involved. And that's why the right has taken this to the kids, right? Because parents, they are very black and white, and our children need to have fairness. And, and, and, and there has to be a very black and. But it's just not that way. Right. And so I just wanted to say
- [41:15]
A
that the question that comes up for me often is what culture are we willing to permit in sport? Yeah, right. I mean, the question of fairness. Okay, fine, I think we can keep having that conversation, but the idea that we should be surveying and surveilling and having scrutiny on women's bodies is deeply problematic in my mind.
- [41:53]
B
Just the normalization of it.
- [41:54]
A
All, right? It's the normalization of we only do testing on women athletes bodies, but I think when we're talking about kids too, we have to name that. What this leads to is pretty clear. We've seen it before. There have been state policies proposed to do genital inspections on little girls in sport. Right. I mean, this is what this leads to. The culture that this permits is way, way more scary and harmful in my mind than trans athletes ever will be. Right. So I think we need to talk about that. And I also think we need to name the reality that, you know, there are still fewer girls participating in sport in this country than there were boys in 1972 when Title IX was passed. Right. So we have some clear structural issues for girls in sport. Why we would complicate that even more is beyond me. Right. I think the. The Women's Sports foundation, their most recent study, found that girls are leaving sport at twice the rate of boys. It used to be at the age of 14, it's now at the age of 13. And the reason that they cited what little girls, what girls say about why they leave sport is because they don't want people analyzing their bodies. They don't want to be watched in those ways. They want to be able to play without feeling like people are watching and judging them. Right. So for me, the idea then that we are gonna put all of this surveillance on little girls to say, actually, you're not feminine enough. I find that very worrisome.
- [43:50]
C
I mean, and on that note, I mean, we haven't even started talking about intersex athletes. That's right now called DSD athletes, differences in sex development. And can you, can you just explain Ellie and Anna what the difference is? And I want to be clear on this. Between trans women who are playing in intersex athletes.
- [44:19]
E
Yes, you start.
- [44:21]
A
Okay, so intersex athletes are people with dsd. Well, actually, let me take a step back. Okay. So most people think, when you think about sex, there are men and women. And that's because we typically, when a baby is born, we look at the parts they're born with. And then a doctor says, okay, this is a boy or it's a girl. But the science is actually way more complicated than that. Scientists have found that there are six ways, or they've tried six different ways of determining sex. None prove sex. So they look at, you can look at gonads, you can look at genetic sex, you can look at, you know, gender presentation or rather like physical presentation of one sex, but none is definitive. And what we know is that there is a portion of the population, intersex folks, who really defy those kind of standards of men, women, sex. So the hard part with that is because sex is so complicated, intersex people have no idea, most often that they're intersex. Right? So when they're doing all these testing, this testing through sport governing bodies, most often it's the first time that somebody learns they have any intersex variation. So those are intersex folks. And then there are trans folks. Trans folks are people who are assigned a sex at birth. And as they age and learn about themselves, they realize, actually, that doesn't align with my gender. That doesn't align with who I am. And so they may be assigned male at birth and then figure out, actually, I'm a woman. And they would be a trans woman or some variation of that. Ellie, I don't know if you want
- [46:23]
E
to add to that. Yeah. And then at that point, there's a ton of variance about decisions that trans folks make in terms of gender affirming, health care. And those are the particulars that we would get into with regulations of transition periods between categories that just is, like, taken off the table now because trans athletes are being banned completely. And so I think one thing to acknowledge is that variance is cool. Diversity is exciting. Sex, our bodies are amazing. Sex is complicated. Like, that to me, is good news. And that scientists are saying that, like, a bimodal model for sex, like two camel humps are just like. Is way more accurate than, like, two static boxes, like male, female. And that also is exciting for me. We thrive on diversity. If you're in a team sport, you get that. And really the problem then is our static binary system. So there's a bunch of bodies that don't fit in this black and white binary in terms of identity, but also in terms of their bodies, right. Their chromosomal makeup. Right. And they're being made to feel like their bodies are the problem when really, like, there's a lack of creativity in our system that could be shifted, to acknowledge that our bodies are more complicated than we used to think that they were. And that's cool. It's exciting.
- [47:56]
C
Yeah. And the human element again, like, let's not forget some of these stories that I've heard over the years. I mean, going back to the 80s when they had that stage. Spanish hurdler, Maria Martinez Patino, right? When she finds out through a chromosomal test that she's actually an intersex athlete. She had this rare genetic condition, right, where she had androgen insensitivity. So she has external female genitalia and internal chromosomal genes that actually have a male chromosome. She has no idea. She's been raised as a woman her whole life, and all of a sudden she was publicly outed as. No, actually, you know, the news is telling me I am no longer a woman. Castor Semenya, as we know who, the runner from South Africa at 18 years old, same thing. Had no idea because she had external female genitalia and internal male organs as an intersex athlete and, and to watch these women, I did a caster Semenya story for ESPN back in the day. To watch these women go through that angst is just heart wrenching. Right. When they have no idea. And my question to you is, with these natural variations in sex characteristic, whether it's chromosomal or hormonal, how do natural biological variations, how is that an unfair athletic advantage in a female category?
- [49:37]
A
It's a really complicated question, right, because there's so much variation and as we know, sport is very complicated. As we've already talked about, different sports require and necessitate different types of bodily performances. I think what's hard for me is then to say, okay, so we care so much about fairness. That's great, that's fine. Why are we then not doing the same level of testing on male athletes? Right. We know there are all sorts of genetic variations in pretty much every elite athlete, in my opinion. That is why I love high level sport. I find it fascinating. I find it fascinating that Michael Phelps has a huge wingspan and he doesn't process lactic acid in the same way that most other athletes do. That is super interesting to me. I think it's really cool. And I think it's really cool then that that leads to him being one of the best swimmers in the world in history. I don't understand then why that same framing isn't applied to women athletes.
- [50:52]
D
The same framing should be applied, yeah.
- [50:54]
C
There is no, there is no restrictions though, on the men's side for natural, biological.
- [50:58]
D
No, we don't know anything about them. First of all, they never take any tests. We don't know. We have no idea. So maybe we should at least start testing them.
- [51:10]
C
Hey, World cup fans, if you want proper analysis, honest opinions, and plenty of laughs along the way, give the rest. Is football a listen? Gary Lineker is joined by Alan Shearer and Micah Richards throughout the tournament as they break down all the big games, the biggest moments and everything happening on and off the pitch. They'll also be chatting with some brilliant guests along the way. Whether you've watched soccer your whole life or maybe you're just getting into it, they'll help make sense of the drama, the tactics, the joy and the heartbreak of the World Cup. Listen to the rest. Is football wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp ABS. I think we've gotten a lot better at talking about mental health. We check in with our friends, we remind people they're not alone. But when it comes to ourselves, somehow it's really easy to think, I'm just gonna deal with that later. Better Help's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000Americans, and it revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise. But listen to this. 74% say society discourages people from doing so. Yeah, and that disconnect says a ton. Because we believe in getting support, we just don't always feel comfortable being the person who asked for it. And I think one of the best things we can do is normalize those conversations and encourage people we love to take that first step. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with better help.
- [52:57]
B
Sign up and get 10 off@betterhelp.com welcome to the party. That's better. HP.com welcome to the party.
- [53:07]
C
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B
Yeah.
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C
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A
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C
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- [54:20]
B
I think one of the big things for me, even when I, like, really try to understand the other side's perspective, because I think that that's also important to, to learn. What are they afraid of? What are we afraid of? Right? And I think why they don't test the men and they test the women is because we are seen as inferior and men are seen as superior. That is the, the, the, the deep, like, understanding of the way the world runs. Right. Men are stronger and faster and women are not.
- [54:58]
D
Are they smart?
- [54:59]
B
So women going over into a person born as a woman or a young girl and transitioning into a man are less feared than the opposite than a trans woman coming into women's sports. And that is a systemic thing. Right. Like there may be biological factors involved But I think we have to get really honest with ourselves around the superior, the supremeness in which we seat men as opposed to women. And then, you know, when we talk about the medical world and how little emphasis is put on women's bodies, like, I'm, I'm. I'm in perimenopause, menopause, and there is such little medical research that has been done on women's bodies. Everything's been on the men for me to understand. But if a man. There has been. I mean, the amount of more money that has been researched on erectile dysfunction versus women's bodies is just unbelievable, right? And, and so I say all of this because I really want us to not get lost in the. But this point and this point and this point and that point and this thing, because at the end of the day, and Julie and I talk about this a lot and Billy, we're talking about human beings and we are trying to create these systems and structure, structures that in many ways are inherently exclusive. The higher you go up the ladder. And that ex, that exclusivity, the higher you go up the ladder makes you feel kind of cool as a person who's been in. It makes you feel powerful and supreme, right? And so I think we have to really think about this, like, especially with women's sports. Women's sports is all about inclusivity. And I'm not afraid. And if I were playing today and I had a trans woman on my team, I would not be afraid for her to be there. Because I. I believe that, that a reason why women's sports is so profoundly moving is because we have been the marginalized group of people who have been fighting against power for all of these years. Billy, you started it. Julie then took it on, and then I was able to have a go at it for a while. And I think that this just makes sports better. I really do. I really feel like there's. This is such a small problem that has become so big and politicized and,
- [57:42]
C
and it's why it absolutely breaks my heart that this issue, which started at the elite level and the collegiate level, is now getting pushed down. And we said it at the top there 13 times. More state anti trans sports bills for youth than there are out trans athletes.
- [58:04]
D
That's amazing, right? Did you want children to always play together? Yes, play like, just play like the Women's Sports Foundation. One thing we worry about is we just want them to be able to play, you know, to feel like just what we're talking about here today. Be the Best you can be, it's about all of yourself. And then let them choose what direction they want to go. I mean, geez, give the kids a break.
- [58:29]
C
Exactly.
- [58:29]
D
Have you ever watched kids, they don't care.
- [58:31]
C
Like, we played with boys growing up all the time. It was co ed like you did that. Like, right, that. Now we're saying, oh no, no, you cannot not have a trans girl, you know, at the youth level to me is like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? The inhumanity of that just, it just makes me so sad because that is the very thing to your point, Anna, that kids need is that expression, that joy, that moment, and that's where a lot of kids get it, is out on the field playing with their friends and they can't even do that. The very thing that perhaps gives them hope in life and they, and they can't do that.
- [59:13]
B
That's right.
- [59:14]
D
Well, it helps girls particularly to believe in themselves and to have courage and to change and to go for it and ask her what they want and need and all the things we're taught not to do. I'm telling you, sports is great for that. To ask for what you want and need. I love it changed. Oh, that was great.
- [59:33]
C
What are you, what are you all seeing at the youth level in that? You're, you're looking at this, you're studying this a lot. We are going to hopefully have A.B. hernandez, who is a young trans woman who competes at the high school level on our track and field team in California here, and her mom on as one of our three part series. But what are you seeing in, in terms of, and just giving the human element of, of some of the stories on how these trans kids are being
- [60:08]
E
affected in the states that have more inclusive policies, there's more CIS girls playing, participating and saying that they're having a better experience. So there's a connection there. We don't want trans kids to stop playing and we're making them and that, that needs to get turned around real fast. I think about Finley in the book Finley Talks is a trans woman who said the first time she picked up a tennis racket, she knew deep down that it was gonna save her life. And she, that came, that came true. She just would hit the tennis ball against a brick wall as hard as she could. And the, you know, she said that when she was finally able to transition, the white noise fell away and she could finally just play for the joy of the game.
- [60:53]
D
Right.
- [60:54]
E
We, we interviewed youth, I will say Chris Mosher, amazing trans athlete, interviewed our our youth, and they had vastly different experiences depending on which state they lived in. Right. So we interviewed a really cool youth athlete who is a trans boy, and he wanted to be competing in the male category, but because of what his birth certificate said, he was winning the female category and didn't want to be like that. Didn't feel authentic to him. So we're having problems right away. Right. But I also think about Em, who had a much different experience. She is a trans girl who plays softball and volleyball, and her parents are extremely supportive. Her teammates were supportive, her coach was supportive. And she had an amazing experience really early on. One teammate said something disparaging and two other teammates and the coach shut it down right away. And then when they would go to opposing teams games, if there was any heckling at all, the parents and the athletes would email the principal and the athletic director of that other school and kind of invite everybody just to step up. And by the end of the season, she was having an amazing experience at home games and away games. And that's one of those things where it's like everybody was winning, right? Her teammates and the opposing players. And it was more than just about who got more points in the game. Right. And so we are. We're just. I want to keep having the conversation about the fact that there are trans kids who don't feel safe in our society. And sports could be a place where they could feel that sense of belonging. They could drop out of the vigilance of survival mode and belong to their bodies, belong in their teams. And we're seeing, like, sports is good for all kids, but especially vulnerable kids, a place to belong, right? So let's make sports more inclusive for trans kids also. Also, let's make youth sports free so all kids can play. You know, like, let's keep talking about money, right? Like, if we want to talk about fairness, who wasn't at my gymnastics gym growing up, who didn't have access to that facility because it was expensive, right? Like, we got to talk about money if we're going to be talking about fairness. And we have to believe that there is no other, that we all do better when everybody's there playing in their bodies, more joy. And so, like, that's where sports can make us proximate, where we all win. And instead of just including trans athletes, we're seeing that their joy, their exuberance, their courage could be leading us into a future of sport that's just much more creative and much more embodied and safer for everybody.
- [63:38]
B
Well, we've kept you Guys. So much longer than we were supposed to. But I just like, could talk to you for hours. And I just am so grateful that you both have put in the sweat equity into understanding more about trans athletes, trans bodies, trans humanity. I'm just so grateful that for both
- [63:59]
D
of you, everybody needs to read Fair Game and just see what they, you know, just listen and learn and read. I am, I haven't read it yet, so I'm getting very, I'm like, I got to get the book.
- [64:11]
C
So good. Yeah. Fair Game, Trans Athletes and the Future of so sports. I have, yes, it's really good.
- [64:17]
B
So good.
- [64:18]
C
It's really good. And I, and I think it explains a lot of. Of myths out there, of course, and, and how with knowledge we understand and can debunk them. And I think that is important because fear becomes a driver that takes us to a place that I don't think is healthy or sustainable for all of us. And so I thank you guys for all the work you've put in on this. As, as Abby and Billy just said, it means so much. And, and again, just that when I look at all the issues in women's sports right now, I'm like, why, why do we have to expend so much energy here when it really, really shouldn't be something that is. Is taking up all the oxygen in the room and for all the wrong reasons? And so hopefully your book can help shine a light on that as well. Okay, party people, before we wrap, we do want to acknowledge that a lot has happened since we first recorded this conversation last month. The U. S. Supreme Court has now upheld state laws that restrict transgender girls from participating in girls and women's school sports. We will talk more about this, of course, in our upcoming episodes. And we're also beginning to see what these new policies look like in practice. The ioc, for example, has started implementing its new sry genetic testing requirements for women competing in Olympic sports, which has brought renewed attention to questions about medical privacy and athletes rights and how these policies will be carried out. And one response that really caught our attention came from the US Women's National Volleyball Team. After complying with the IOC's testing requirements, they released a public statement saying they weren't given enough information about where their genetic testing would be stored, who would have access to it, how it would be protected, or how long it would be retained. And they, they also questioned the lack of an independent appeals process for dis for disputed or false positive findings. They were asking for greater transparency, stronger medical privacy protections, due process, and a seat at the table as these new systems are all put in place. And they have every right to ask for all of those things.
- [66:47]
B
That's right. Yeah. Jules, we. We opened this episode by talking about the numbers and that even though this is affecting a very small percentage of athletes, the issue has generated what we know is a ton of legislation, litigation, and public debate. And if the developments since we recorded have shown us anything, it's that this conversation isn't slowing down. Okay. It's evolving. We want to keep talking about it. So whatever your perspective, we hope that this helped slow the conversation down in some way. We hope that it added some context and reminded all of us that behind every policy, every lawsuit, and every headline are real people.
- [67:39]
C
Yeah. And. And as we said, this won't be the last conversation. We'll continue following the science, the legal decisions, the policy changes, and just as importantly, how those policies are implemented, because that's where many of the biggest questions are right now. And most importantly, the people whose lives are directly affected by them. Don't forget party people. To subscribe to the welcome to the party YouTube channel, click that little bell icon so you can get updates when new episodes go live. And if you can take just one minute, we would so appreciate it. If you can rate, leave a comment and subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcast, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure to follow us on Tick Tock and Instagram at. Welcome to the Party, where Abby Kinger and I will bring the party straight to your feed. Shout out to Kate Diaz for our awesome, amazing theme music. Abs. Pause in, sister. I'm counting us in. And do not go. Do not grunt on this. You got to go soft for your voice. Okay, I'm just going to mouth it. Yeah, mouth it. I got you. Mouth it. USA on three. One, two, three.
- [68:51]
B
Usa.
- [68:52]
C
Usa. Usa.
- [68:55]
B
Welcome to the Party is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. Initial Digital is our production partner, and you can also watch our full conversations on the welcome to the party YouTube channel and follow us at welcome to the Party show on Instagram and TikTok. Thanks for listening.