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- [00:00]
Julie Foudy
What's up, party people? I'm Julie Foudy.
- [00:02]
Abby Wambach
And I'm Abby Wambach. It's hard to get my microphone around my toilet seat.
- [00:08]
Julie Foudy
I don't know if you notice what mine is, abs, but I am a whoopee cushion.
- [00:14]
Abby Wambach
Whoop. Whoop. I think that we should be calling this welcome to the Farty Farty.
- [00:21]
Julie Foudy
Welcome to the Farty. Let's go. And you're the toilet with the pooper on your head. So it's perfect. Welcome to the goobly gobbly Halloween spooky edition of welcome to the Party. Yes, we will have costumes, Maybe even some candy if I can go steal some off a kid. Vampires, Ghosts. Just enough chaos to keep these things interesting. Abby is a. Literally, I just sprayed myself a toilet. God. Please go to YouTube just so you can see. Abby is a toilet. Shoot.
- [01:02]
Abby Wambach
I came with the costumes this year, but. And also my wife is having sincere secondary embarrassment, I think, for me. But we have to get to the sports. The end of his whole playoff picture is mostly set. A few teams still fighting to crash the party. But the real suspense isn't just who gets in. It's it. It's what happens next. Julie.
- [01:25]
Julie Foudy
Oh, gosh. Cuz, you know it's even scarier than that final playoff push. The salary cap. Oh. The monster haunting every roster. And maybe the reason some of our brightest stars could vanish like ghosts.
- [01:42]
Abby Wambach
We're opening the crypt of contracts and clauses. Math, money. And the fight to keep the top talent in the nwa. And helping us survive the salary cap apocalypse. Orlando Prize. Haley Carter.
- [02:02]
Julie Foudy
Settle in, party people. Take a listen as we get a haunting from the ghost of a party pass. Welcome to the Farty. Attention.
- [02:15]
Abby Wambach
The party is about to commence.
- [02:23]
Julie Foudy
Welcome to the party. What's up, party people? I'm Julie Foudy.
- [02:30]
Abby Wambach
And I'm Billie Jean King. No. No, I'm not.
- [02:34]
Julie Foudy
You wish.
- [02:35]
Abby Wambach
I am.
- [02:36]
Julie Foudy
Not just cause you're in New York City on the road.
- [02:38]
Abby Wambach
I've had some wild tech check problems this morning, so I'm glad to be here with you, Julie. And we have an exciting episode today.
- [02:49]
Julie Foudy
We do. And you look really good.
- [02:51]
Abby Wambach
And yeah, I'm Abby Wambach, if you didn't know.
- [02:55]
Julie Foudy
You look really good in your orange beanie as well. I'm sorry. Your shower was broken as well. All right, abs. We have more clarity surrounding the W&Vs NWSL while we're on international break. So I think we should give the party people a little update on that. Because there's only one game remaining after this international Break in. The picture is much more clear. So remember, everyone was vying to get into that top eight so that you qualify for the playoffs. And as we know, Kansas City has been in since like the first week of the season. And now we are up to seven teams who have clinched a spot with one game remaining. Of course, Kansas City's in Washington spirit, Orlando Pride, we're already in. Gotham FC and the Portland Thorns also punch their tickets. And with the win, the Thorns racked up a A league record 9th consecutive playoff appearance. San Diego Wave also secured a playoff spot for the third time in four seasons. And the Seattle Rain locked in a postseason birth with that 21 win over Utah. Okay, so it's that last coveted spot that's up for grabs. Sadly, Angel City, our Angel City is no longer in the hunt. We done. We're out. That last coveted spot is a race between racing Louisville. Oh, get that. Did you, did you catch that? A race between racing Louisville and North Carolina in that last game. And I will not go through all the scenarios. Houston is officially also out with Angel City. And crazy enough for that last game, they're calling it decision day on November 2nd. Um, all games will. Will kick at the same time. They don't even know when that is yet. And there are only three points between third and seventh place right now. Yeah. And they're all fighting for, you know, the home playoff seed. So that's a huge game on November 2nd. Okay, so that's that with NWSL scenarios. And today, Abigail, in your cute orange beanie, we are getting into a big topic that you and I, as fellow Angel City co owners, have been discussing quite often. And, and that topic is how, as a league, do we ensure that we don't lose our NWSL stars to Europe or other leagues? And also at the same time, how do we ensure that we. We are a league that is attractive to enough. Enough for the world's best players to want to come and play here in the United States in the nwsl.
- [05:53]
Abby Wambach
So it's a growing trend, right, with the Alyssa Thompson move, the Naomi Girma move over to Chelsea, both of them, Emily Fox and Jenna Niswonger to Arsenal, Crystal Dunn to psg. And these are just, you know, some of the US Stars that we know about. I think that we really do need to think about this as a league and figure out a different way forward because, you know, I kind of go back and forth on this, like, is this. Is it the most important thing to have the best players in our league? And I've Always been of the mind that yes. That answer is always going to be a yes. But I also think that there's something really interesting around the growth of the women's game globally and how good that is for the game. So I, you know, there, selfishly speaking, because I live in the US and I want to go to these games and I want to see the best soccer I can see. I want. I want the best players here, but also there's a part of me that also wants the leagues all around the world to get better, but then that leads to other. Other countries beating the US in world championships, and I for sure don't want that.
- [07:10]
Julie Foudy
And do we want that? No. Hell no, we don't want that. Stop being so globally fair. We want it all here. Yeah, My. Honestly, my salary cap anxiety meter vacillates between like, oh, we are. We are fine, y'. All. We're fine here. And then I. And then. And then the next day I'm like, we are not fine, y'. All. We need to something about this salary cap. So we figured it was due time that we actually brought in someone that knows what the hell she's talking about and does this on a daily basis and can explain some levers and options that, you know, possibly make the salar cap less restrictive so that we can keep players here in the end of nwsl. So we are bringing in someone who knows exactly what those levers are and can look like. It's our friend Orlando Pride, VP of Soccer operations and sporting director Haley Carter who has helped turn Orlando into one of NWSL's top clubs. But before we bring in Haley, it's worth reminding our party people, abs, that when you and I were playing in the first ever women's pro soccer league, the WSA, like in the 1800s, and you went on to play in WPS, the second league before NWSL. The global game, as you pointed out, was in a much different spot. Like, I was playing in Sweden. That was one of the only options. They didn't pay me a salary. They basically said, hey, we'll fly you over and put you up. Is that cool? And I was like, hell yeah.
- [08:46]
Haley Carter
Great.
- [08:47]
Julie Foudy
That's a great option, right? No money. I was just. I was breaking even. I was ecstatic with that. There was really no English league to go play in. There was. France was just starting to play pay players. Lyon and PSG were getting into the game. Japan was the actual league where you could. You could break even. People were going to Japan, but nothing like you say that you see Today in terms of a market for you globally.
- [09:13]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, it was. It was even during my time, too, towards the end of my career, is when players started to see. You started to see some players going overseas and playing, but for the most part, in the better part of my career, you went overseas to have an overseas experience, not to get paid. Of course they have bad teams over there, but there was such little money that it was nearly impossible for US national team players to go over there. And then, not to mention that when US Soccer was literally supplementing our WPS salaries and then NWSL salaries for many years to help give the owners, you know, a little bit of a reprieve and needing to pay the salary, the salaries of the national team players so that they could keep the best talent here. Yeah, maybe we should turn back to that system because that worked. And you know, this is not to.
- [10:06]
Julie Foudy
Say I don't think we're turning back.
- [10:07]
Abby Wambach
This is not to say that the players that choose to go overseas, you know, the frustrating part is they're put in a position where they're seen in some ways as like, not not wanting to develop and grow the league here. But as a women athlete and a person who understands the stress that that goes into needing to earn money and to save for your retirement, and who knows when that retirement will come. As a professional athlete, there's all these psychological things that, you know, if somebody's going to offer you a bunch of money, you might say yes, and you also might go play. And nowadays, too, the other side of this coin, I think, that we haven't really talked about is that the games and the leagues worldwide are getting better. Like before, the American leagues were just actually the best leagues in the world. And now with all the other money that's getting fluxed into all of these.
- [11:02]
Julie Foudy
Programs, look at all the leagues we got. You got England's wsl, right? You have. Where you have global brands like Chelsea and Menu and Man City, Arsenal. You have Germany's from Bundesliga, right? You have La Liga F, which is the women's version of La Liga. In Spain, you have the French league, of course, with Lyon and PSG and others. You have Sweden still, you have Iceland. If you wanted to, you could go play in Switzerland, you could go play in Denmark, Japan, Mexico, Brazil. I mean, keep going down the list of places you could play. I mean, the supply and demand is real party people, right? And. And look, we understand we have the trauma of like two collapsing leagues. We're on the third iteration of, of a professional league here in the United States within WSL like the cautious approach of a salary cap. Right. And the need for that cautious approach as it was growing was appropriate. But now that there's this global investment in women's soccer and that has changed the landscape and so to remain again, I go back to that question. To remain and become the premier destination for top players, the league must figure out how to be flexible and we hope, no pressure. Haley. That Haley Carter is going to solve all our worries. All right, party people, let's get to the partiest part of our party. Haley Carter is the VP of soccer operations and sporting director for the Orlando Pride where she's helped guide the team to record breaking success last season and NWSL championship and the league's longest unbeaten streak in 2024. They actually went unbeaten their first 23 games last year. Haley also played collegiately at the U. S. Naval academy and then served as a marine making multiple combat deployments in Iraq. She also earned an MBA with distinction from the University of Liverpool and law degree from the University of Houston law center. She's also the list is very long coached around the world. One of those teams was with the Afghanistan women's national team and she later helped form an emergency coalition. Get this abs. To evacuate those Afghan women's players, officials and their family members from Afghanistan to Australia when the Taliban took over. This woman, at 41 years old, has lived a life. Haley Carter, welcome to the party.
- [13:45]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [13:46]
Julie Foudy
Holy cow.
- [13:48]
Abby Wambach
That's a hell of a bio.
- [13:50]
Haley Carter
I am. I'm not nearly as cool in real life as your hype might lead people to believe, so thanks for that.
- [13:59]
Julie Foudy
Before we even get to any of the soccer.
- [14:02]
Haley Carter
Can.
- [14:03]
Julie Foudy
Can we just go back to that day or that week or that moment when you were helping evacuate those Afghan soccer players and their families and officials out of the country. Crazy.
- [14:16]
Haley Carter
It was about two weeks, it was like seven days straight of not sleeping really. Our dear friend Kelly Lindsay and.
- [14:24]
Julie Foudy
Yeah.
- [14:25]
Haley Carter
Yeah.
- [14:25]
Julie Foudy
Who was the head coach of the. Yeah, Kelly was the head coach. You were an assistant with the Afghani national team.
- [14:31]
Haley Carter
Yeah, it was a bit of a tactical operation actually. We had these young, you know, 18 to 24 year old Afghan women, you know, running very tactically to get into the airport.
- [14:42]
Julie Foudy
It was like you had to hide them to get them there.
- [14:47]
Haley Carter
Well, we did, but it was things like, you know, I had to educate them on, you know, how my cell phone number written on your arm. So if somebody takes your phone, you still have my number. You can grab somebody else's phone and reach back out to Me and, you know, pack three days worth of food and water in your backpack, have chargers and batteries. Rotate who's using your phone so your phones don't die. Share your locations with me so I know where you're at. You know, things like when you get within a certain proximity of the gates to enter into the airport, your phones are going to stop working because, you know, obviously we were jamming cell phone signals to prevent explosions. And so you had to. We had to walk through everything with them, so. Because once they got within that bubble, they weren't going to be able to communicate with us again until they got through. So, you know. Yeah, it was. It was tactical. It was like, listen, if your granny's traveling with you, you put all of your important documents up her inner thigh, because ain't no Taliban going up her inner thigh looking for your stuff. You know, like, things like that. Like it. I mean, I think one day I'll probably write a book about it. It'll be a really cathartic experience. It was a hard two weeks.
- [15:58]
Abby Wambach
But so what. What. What then was the reason the pull to get you to want to come and work for an NWSL team?
- [16:08]
Haley Carter
Well, you know, we had just gone through that, like, reckoning, right? And I was in the NWSL in the early days with Houston and 14, 15, and 16. And, you know, I think I'll just be totally frank. Like, I was really fucking tired of seeing. Sorry if I can't say that.
- [16:25]
Abby Wambach
No, you can say it. We don't say it all up.
- [16:31]
Haley Carter
Of, like, seeing men in positions that had no experience in the women's game. And I'm like, what are your qualifications, sir, for this? And by the time I was in the nwsl, I already had. You know, I'd been in the Marine Corps for close to eight years. I had an NBA. I came back to playing pro soccer.
- [16:50]
Julie Foudy
You've seen it from every side, as you just pointed out, right? Like, as a coach, as a professional player. You have law degree. Like, you've done it from every angle. And our overarching question for you, Haley, is really like, where are you regarding the current NWSL salary cap structure? On a scale of y', all. We're fine. We're so fine to y'.
- [17:16]
Abby Wambach
All.
- [17:16]
Julie Foudy
We're not fine. Right? And then what can be done? Um, where are you on that scale?
- [17:23]
Haley Carter
I'm. I think I'm. I'm a lot like you. I oscillate. I have moments of, like, pure panic, and then moments from, like, okay, you know, it's nuanced. We're facing quite a bit of change, actually. I think all at once we're in a really good place as a league, but we're also navigating. We're at a bit of a pivotal moment. So, you know, the pragmatist in me is understanding the. You know, there are finite dollars. Right. That our owners have to go around. So how we invest them really matters. And you can invest them in player payroll, player salary, or you can invest them in qualified staff and best in class facilities. And so I think there's like. Right. And additional revenue generating streams. And so I think it's. I do I oscillate between, like, we've got to raise the cap right now versus are there other. The other levers that we can pull that will help navigate and retain talent and continue to attract talent.
- [18:33]
Julie Foudy
Abigail. Thank goodness. Because I was a little bit over the heat of the summer. And we're getting finally into sweater weather. And let me tell you, Quince does it right. I don't know if you've seen this, but their 50 Mongolian cashmere sweater is I iconic for a reason.
- [18:55]
Abby Wambach
I gotta check that they have.
- [18:56]
Julie Foudy
I know they have these premium denim that fits like a dream. And they also offer this, like, luxurious. Which makes me feel luxurious and I look luxurious. Outerwear. Outerwear that you'll wear year after year. And I'm getting to the stage where we get into our fall games with U.S. women's National Team.
- [19:17]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [19:18]
Julie Foudy
And we're on the field pre game, sometimes for an hour, pregame show. Right.
- [19:23]
Abby Wambach
Hard to stay warm and look style stylish.
- [19:25]
Julie Foudy
Yeah. You're not in a studio. You're not in a warm, cozy studio. You gotta look good and stay warm. So I have been eyeing their wool coats.
- [19:34]
Abby Wambach
Cool.
- [19:35]
Julie Foudy
Because they give me. Which is really hard to do, a totally designer look, but cost a fraction of the price. And the quality is just as good, if not better. And this is how they do it. Quince partners directly with top tier ethical factories. And what they do is. What we're trying to do is cut out the middlemen. That means that they deliver these luxury quality pieces at half the price, literally, of similar brands. And it's the kind of wardrobe that it's the upgrade that will make you feel smart and stylish. And it's effortless. And for me, my Quince cashmere crew neck. And then I go with their Italian crossbody bag.
- [20:19]
Abby Wambach
Cool. I love the cross bodies.
- [20:22]
Julie Foudy
Yeah. That has become a staple for me this season.
- [20:24]
Abby Wambach
And.
- [20:25]
Julie Foudy
And you literally can wear it with Jeans, joggers. Sometimes I wear it with pajamas and, and somehow I, it actually makes me look like I planned my outfit.
- [20:37]
Abby Wambach
I mean Julie, are you coming into a stylish era? Is Julie becoming styled okay?
- [20:43]
Julie Foudy
Maybe Quince is gonna get me there.
- [20:45]
Abby Wambach
That's right.
- [20:45]
Julie Foudy
Find your fall staples at quince. Go to quince.com welcome to the party. For free shipping on your order and which I love. 365 day returns in case it actually doesn't fit. Right. So they're now available in Canada too.
- [21:01]
Haley Carter
Yay.
- [21:02]
Julie Foudy
Yay Canadians. That's Quince. Q U I n c e.com welcome to the party to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com welcome to the party.
- [21:23]
Abby Wambach
Can you give us like a very basic description of what salary cap means? Because you know, some of our listeners are just getting into to sports, we call it the sports. And it might be really helpful to those listeners to understand what the hell are we talking about.
- [21:43]
Haley Carter
Yeah, so the base salary cap right now for 2025 is 3.3 million. But within that, and I think something we can talk about later in this conversation, but it's really important is there's also a revenue sharing piece and it's roughly about 200k. So in total. Yeah.
- [22:02]
Julie Foudy
So 3.3 million salary cap, meaning that's how much you could spend on players per team and 200k per team in revenue sharing as well.
- [22:12]
Haley Carter
Right. Which basically brings your total salary cap to right around 3.5 million.
- [22:17]
Julie Foudy
Okay.
- [22:18]
Haley Carter
Now if you have allocation money, which we had quite a bit of.
- [22:25]
Abby Wambach
We.
- [22:26]
Haley Carter
Can use that for salary buy down. So we're actually over the cap. I'll tell you, Orlando has the highest player payroll in the league. Our average salary for players. And I'm not talking about your high investment players, just your average sort of role playing NWSL, typical NWSL players, about $120,000 a year. Now salary cap includes a couple of things. It includes your base salary. It includes any individual performance bonuses that are negotiated. It includes any signing bonuses that are negotiated. It includes any sort of excess benefits. So like you guys are familiar with like childcare. If you go over what is allowed in the by the irs, you have an excess benefit. The excess benefit hits your salary cap and then agent fees. You know, it's forecasted to go up. So that by, you know, as we start to get through this, by, you know, 2030, it's set to be around 5.1 million. And I think that that total number is important, but I think what is Also important is looking at the minimum salary. So right now the minimum salary in the NWSL is 48,500. And again, that's base salary. That does not include housing stipends or team provided housing or auto stipends or wa.
- [23:45]
Julie Foudy
Does team provided housing fall into the salary cap too, right?
- [23:47]
Haley Carter
It does not. Oh, it does not fall into the salary cap. It doesn't now. It will beyond 2026.
- [23:55]
Julie Foudy
Oh, interesting.
- [23:56]
Haley Carter
It will, but the cap jumps pretty significantly. It jumps from 3 points to 5 to 4.7. Yet it jumps pretty quickly to account for that. But by 2030, our league minimum salary is 82,500. So, you know, things, things are going.
- [24:11]
Julie Foudy
Up better than $10 a day.
- [24:12]
Haley Carter
Yeah. Like in, in 2013 and 2015. I mean, I think the salary cap when, when I was in was like $735,000 and the league max was like 45,000. You know, so everybody else was on like $6,500 a year. It was like enough money, you know, you were like food stamps in Texas.
- [24:34]
Julie Foudy
Here. Here's the question though. Is. Is even though the salary cap is, is. Is getting higher, right? Minimums are getting higher, which are all good things when you look at the global market. Again, in the context of that, right, you're competing. And let's just take Alyssa Thompson, for example, who was with Angel City, had just signed a three year extension to her contract. The face of Angel City, 20 years old, young. Her sister played there as well. She's from Los Angeles. So all the things you would think would appeal to keeping that player in Los Angeles with Angel City. And yet Chelsea, because they don't have similar salary cap restrictions, they're working off a percentage of their revenue. And when you have these big global brands like Chelsea and Man United and Barcelona, and they don't have the same restrictions, they obviously can offer her a number of that. Angel City just can't, even if they wanted to, which they did, just can't match, right, because of the salary cap restrictions.
- [25:38]
Haley Carter
Because you can't compete. You can't. Because when you're, when you're doing your roster construction, right, like technically they could pay her a million a year, but then you would have to be paying everybody else peanuts, right? And in order to really have a competitive roster, you've got to be able to surround your best pieces with other strong pieces. And so it just.
- [25:59]
Julie Foudy
What are the alternatives to that problem? Because that's a problem that is going to be happening and repeated. Trinity Rodman is a free agent as of this Next season, Right. Sophia Wilson is a free agent as. And those are players that globally the market is locked in on. They are game changers. And right now they're with nwsl. And how do you keep them here?
- [26:23]
Haley Carter
You know, I, I think there are a lot of ideas, right, that have been tossed around. I don't know if you guys have talked about like the designated player piece, right? Yeah, I'm not a, I'm not a fan personally. Really, I'm not. And because it gets really messy. It does. Okay. And I think. So we'll use Trinity Rodman as an example since you brought her up. But like, so where they get complicated is like, who decides that Trinity Rodman is a dp, but not Croy Bethune? Right? Like, and, and how do you determine who's a dp? Is it based on national team status?
- [27:00]
Julie Foudy
But couldn't you just add the number of DPs allowed?
- [27:04]
Haley Carter
You could. So let's just imagine the one they.
- [27:06]
Julie Foudy
Have designated in mls.
- [27:07]
Haley Carter
They've got, they've got three, right?
- [27:09]
Julie Foudy
What if, what if we, what if we had five? I mean, I'm just throwing it out.
- [27:13]
Haley Carter
There, but you're still. So, so I'm still going to challenge you on it. Because where it gets messy is again, like, what about like your international stars like Temoa or Barbara? Let's just say you get to choose. And they don't play for top tier national teams, but they're like MVP caliber. And in our league, like, right, if you leave it just to pure ownership choice. Okay? Just pure ownership choice, you 100% are going to have a locker room nightmare that you've got to manage. Because even if you go to justify it, right, like, if I was put in this position right now, I would be looking for things to justify those decisions and I would be looking at the national team status. Well, if I, if I say, well, in order to be a dp, you have to have been with your national team in the last 12 months, well then I'm telling every American player that hasn't appeared with US Women's National Team in the last 12 months that they're second class citizens. Like, that's not going to go over well. It's domestically. Or if I base it on statistics, well, if I do that, like, you guys would be set, right? Like strikers and attacking players are going to be golden because goal scoring really matters. But what about defenders and goalkeepers and how do we manage that? And even like the roster dynamics in terms of like, do you choose between a 23 year old rising star who's your future or a 29 year old veteran who's like historically produced and probably is at that point in their career where they've earned the salary they want to have it.
- [28:47]
Julie Foudy
Yeah, I'm a push back a little bit because if you have three or say four designated player spots, and of course this is something the league would have to change is that they allow these designated players. Say you have four designated player spots. Right. I think that the players would understand that what you're doing is you're trying to keep or attract the best players in the world. Right. So the stats are one thing, but like it's pretty clear that. Right. Shwinga is a player you would want because she's going to have a global market. Right?
- [29:34]
Haley Carter
It's pretty clear.
- [29:36]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [29:36]
Haley Carter
I think with those players it is. I think you're right. And I, it's kind of like I do see that there's pros and cons to this and I also think to your point about having five DPs like the NWSL. No, I don't, I don't, I don't think so. I'll get to that. But I think that there are more DP caliber players in the NWSL per team than there are in the MLS per team. So to have more DP slots in the nwsl, if we were playing a comparison game, I think would make sense.
- [30:12]
Julie Foudy
And, and just again for, for the party people who, if we're too in the weeds.
- [30:16]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. What's a dp?
- [30:17]
Julie Foudy
I'm broad this out a little bit.
- [30:19]
Abby Wambach
What's a dp Because. Designated player.
- [30:21]
Haley Carter
Yeah.
- [30:22]
Julie Foudy
And a designated player, as it stands with MLS is a player you could pay whatever you want to play that player. And there's only a few slots, there's three for per team in mls you can pay that player whatever you want to pay that player and it comes off the salary cap at a fixed rate. I think it's like 750k. Right. Even though maybe you're paying them 3 million, whatever it is. So you're not penalized by the cap. You still have a cap, but the, the designated player comes off the cap at a fixed rate that is much less than you're paying them. And that's so that for example, in the past David Beckham would come here and play in the United States. So can you create a scenario where you're offering three to four to five designated player spots per team in, in, in NWSL to alleviate some of that salary cap pressure and keep you competitive in the global market when we're seeing as we just did and Alyssa Thompson go to Chelsea. So.
- [31:24]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [31:24]
Julie Foudy
Okay, so you, you're, you're lukewarm on designated players.
- [31:28]
Haley Carter
Yeah, I just, I think there's pros and cons and I, I, it wouldn't be my first go to, I would say to increase the cap. It wouldn't be my first go to because I do think.
- [31:37]
Julie Foudy
What would your first go to be?
- [31:39]
Haley Carter
Get, get the agent, get the agent fees out of the cap. Okay. And the reason, the reason.
- [31:46]
Julie Foudy
How much is that saving you?
- [31:48]
Haley Carter
It's, it's usually 10%. So agent fees by FIFA regulation are capped at 10%. So that's, that's $350,000 right there.
- [31:57]
Julie Foudy
Yeah.
- [31:57]
Haley Carter
That increases your cap.
- [31:58]
Julie Foudy
I don't think it gives you enough though.
- [32:00]
Haley Carter
Okay. I don't think it gives you enough. But the original thought behind having it in there was that it helps incentivize teams to negotiate. Well, they're capped at 10%. So it FIFA, they sort of self regulate and so you remove those from the cat.
- [32:18]
Julie Foudy
I understand why they're in there in the first place. That's weird to me.
- [32:22]
Abby Wambach
Just so the players representation, because some of the players don't have an agent. It's, it's to, to make sure that they're going to be negotiating on, you know, in good faith with the league.
- [32:34]
Haley Carter
I also think that, and this is, you know, something we've a couple CSOs, we've, Chief Soccer officers, we've been tossing around a bit is, is like coming up with like a performance based sort of premium pool that incentivizes athletes to compete. So like, let's just say we set aside as a league somewhere between 5 and $10 million annually from like central revenue. And at the end of every season you have an independent committee made up of, I don't know, GMs, some analytics experts, Penns reps.
- [33:10]
Julie Foudy
Like association reps. Yep.
- [33:12]
Haley Carter
Yeah. You award premium bonuses to the top 15 to 20 players in the league. So like MVP voting or best 11 advanced statistics, even like jersey sales and social media growth, community impact, like things that are also revenue driven as well. But whatever the criteria is, make it really, make it really transparent. But it changes year to year. Athletes are incentivized. It would like recognize excellence, talent without really the permanence of a dp, sort of a designated player sort of designation. And I think, you know that you give an opportunity for a player to earn an extra, you know, 200, $500,000 on top of their salary. They're going to do everything that they can.
- [33:56]
Julie Foudy
Yeah. It'll incentivize them in season if they're already here. But does that incentivize them to come here if they don't know that they're going to be one of those players?
- [34:05]
Haley Carter
Well, so I think that's actually a good question because I think the answer to that question is the answer to I think a bigger question, and that is how do we educate players on the mechanisms that do exist that increase the salary cap? And the biggest one, and I mentioned this earlier for me, is revenue sharing.
- [34:24]
Julie Foudy
Yeah.
- [34:25]
Haley Carter
Because this is the first CBA that includes revenue sharing. And it's interesting. Kind of like watching the evolution of the athletes. As you know, you guys, we talked about it in your intro, right? Like you were happy just to have your cost covered, like in Sweden to be able to go and play. And so even in the early days of the nwsl, like we were in the community doing appearances unpaid all the time. And it was like this sort of sense of responsibility that if we're not out there to grow the game, like nobody will. And now we've moved in a positive direction. Right. Where athletes are being paid for that time. But we also like can't let paid appearances kind of like hamstring the presence of athletes in the community and sort of driving some of those initiatives. I'll give you a really good example. Last year we participated in that Amazon docu series. And one of the things, one of the pieces of having athletes participated in it is the athletes who participated, like Kylie Nadanner for instance, she was featured in it with her husband Evan. They didn't get paid for that. The league they like. The league wouldn't have been able to afford it is the reality. They didn't get paid for it. But Kylie understands the importance of being in the docu series because as we tell more stories and we help these athletes grow their personal brands, that gets more eyeballs on the docu series. More eyeballs on the docu series turns into better data when we go like mid media cycle to start broadcast renegotiations as we start to get into 2027. Right. And so it's like going to the bank and asking investors to loan you money. You've got to be able to show the backing and the growth. Right. And we can see like viewers of broadcast and how much that's grown over the last two seasons, attendance and how much that's grown over the last two seasons, those things matter. But educating players on. You may not get paid to participate in this docu series, but we're like, we're playing the long game here because.
- [36:40]
Julie Foudy
The more stories we can tell, again.
- [36:42]
Haley Carter
I get increasing the revenue share.
- [36:44]
Julie Foudy
I get all of that. And I agree with all of that.
- [36:46]
Haley Carter
You just want me to pay athletes more money.
- [36:48]
Julie Foudy
Yeah, that's not going to keep. In the modern day. It's not going to keep an athlete.
- [36:52]
Haley Carter
Listen, I don't think. I don't.
- [36:54]
Julie Foudy
Because they're gonna be like, show me the money. Show me the money.
- [36:58]
Haley Carter
I. And I think that's okay. But I also. I also think that, like, you're talking about a. A infinitesimally small number of athletes that, like. And again, you're not gonna make me feel guilty telling me to pay the players. I told you, we have the highest payroll in the league by a couple hundred thousand dollars.
- [37:20]
Abby Wambach
So.
- [37:20]
Haley Carter
But I also have to. I also have to understand, like, the. Pragmatically, when you talk to athletes about why you're gonna go overseas, like, if an athlete walks into my office, and I had this happen with Adriana, who went to Saudi, she was gonna make significantly more money in Saudi, and she had already negotiated personal terms, and I'm not gonna stop her from doing that. I'm not getting in the way of an athlete who has the opportunity to make that kind of money when we're not. We're not gonna be able to afford that. But what I will also say, though, is that, like, we can't. We can't only focus on the player payroll piece, because even if you talk to Alyssa on why she made the decision to go to Chelsea, yeah, she has taken in a pretty serious bankroll. But she also made the decision based on her, like, personal, you know, career and professional development. She wants the opportunity to play in Champions League. She wants the opportunity to train with Chelsea staff and in Chelsea's environment. And. And so I think we have to think bigger picture, right? Like, I can't just focus on throwing more money at these top talent players because the reality is they want best in class facilities. They want their.
- [38:25]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [38:26]
Haley Carter
They want stadiums that are full. They want really highly qualified staff and support staff around them. So, you know, we have these really ambitious owners who want to invest in players, they want to invest in the staff, but we still have to balance how we grow that out because they are still finite resources. Right.
- [38:47]
Julie Foudy
Like, our owners aren't printing. Right. And I think that's one of the things when you see, for example, like, a Kansas City this year at what are they 66 points? I mean, everyone else outside of Washington Spirit who's in the 40s is in the 30s. I mean, almost like double everyone else. So when you look at their success, I think a large piece of that is because of the facilities that Chris and Angie Long have built as owners who they came in and said, look, we are going to invest in our own stadium, our own training facility. We are going to have a first class. We are going to set the standard for what this should look like for women's teams. And that, I think, makes a difference, right?
- [39:30]
Haley Carter
It does.
- [39:31]
Julie Foudy
In terms of retaining players or getting.
- [39:33]
Haley Carter
Players, they're spending less on their salary cap because they can offer those other things. We can't offer all of those things. Right. Like, we can't offer a brand new training facility that, you know, we're working on it, but so. So we pay our athletes more money. Right. So it's. I, I think that's why I say, I think it's a really nuanced discussion. And, and I also think too, that we should be comfortable, and I think for you guys being like us women's national team alum, that we should be comfortable with some of our athletes feeling like from a developmental standpoint, they need the overseas experience. So there's something about that environment, this calendar schedule, the Champions League, there's something about that that they feel like is going to allow them to develop in a manner that's going to make them more competitive on a world stage. And I think it's just. To your point earlier, Abby, like, it's the globalization of the game that, you know, as other clubs are investing in all of these other things, they become really enticing environments to be in.
- [40:45]
Abby Wambach
Do you.
- [40:46]
Haley Carter
And I think that's what we've got to solve.
- [40:48]
Abby Wambach
I agree. And I just wonder, do you think that there's anything to be done right now about it? Because we're. We're not anywhere. They just signed the CBA that's going through. I don't know what year is the CBA going through?
- [41:02]
Julie Foudy
2030, I think.
- [41:04]
Haley Carter
Yeah. And I will tell you, though, that if certain, if certain requirements are met from a revenue standpoint, the CBA can actually be reopened. There's a performance based reopener clause. So, you know, I think. I don't know that there's necessarily anything we can do in the immediate term, but I think a 2027 reopener might be the right moment to sort of make those changes. But making those changes now, I think requires an evaluation of what's working, what's not, and what needs alignment and adjustment. And I think as we get through 2027, by then we'll have two years of revenue sharing data that we can analyze. Right. We've got the World cup in Brazil that's going to be driving global attention. Denver and Boston expansion markets will be, you know, fully operational. So we'll have an idea of what's happening then. And so I think that's really when we're going to have the data to make informed decisions about what adjustments the league really needs. And, and I, I know that's why I say I kind of oscillate between this. Like, I want to throw up in my mouth sometimes when I see some of these things. I'm like, oh, my God, the cap has to go up. Like, I'll call Mark and be like, mark, you've got to tell the board the cap has to come up. But I will, yeah, I'll, like, take a breath and.
- [42:25]
Abby Wambach
Yeah. But two years, try to figure it out. Two years is a long time, especially with some of these big players coming up in free agency. It's, it's. It feels like a gamble. It is waiting.
- [42:36]
Haley Carter
But I think, I think what we have to remember, though, is that the NWSL is at this, like, really fascinating sort of inflection point where the business fundamentals, so like valuations and attendance and viewership and investment, all these things we talked about are at these historic highs. So I think the foundation is really, really strong. But at the same time, we're navigating these really significant transitions. So we have a new cba, we've got full free agency. Right. This is the first year where there was no draft and all of the college rookies came in as free agents. The European competition is increasing. We've got new ambitious owners that are coming in with really different perspectives. And so we're essentially evolving like, multiple systems simultaneously. And so, you know, from my standpoint, I will always be like, pay the players, best product on the field, whatever it's going to take. Like, let's be ambitious. But I also recognize that our ownership group, like, collectively still has to navigate these, these, the evolution of these systems, like, as responsibly as they can, you know, so we're like, facing meaningful expansion. But I think in the next 18 months is when we're really going to start to see the impact of free agency cycle, maintaining competitive balance, what that really looks like and how we manage the talent movement. Where we get into trouble is where this movement to Europe just becomes one way. And I will tell you that this past window was the first window where the net movement out and in was out. And so it is. It is a. It is a topic, I think, for the entire board of Governors. But so they're trying to look at it as nuanced as I can present it.
- [44:25]
Julie Foudy
I think, too, to your point, there's so many other factors at play. Right. I think Emma Hayes comes into the equation when you have a U.S. women's national team coach who understands the importance of diversity of training and play and playing in the Champions League. Right. In the past, U.S. women's national team coaches have probably, whether it's been overtly or not, have wanted the players to stay in the United States to be closer. And now you have a U.S. women's national team coach who has gone on record before she became the coach saying, I think this national team needs to diversify and play in other leagues. Right. She said that before she became coach. So I'm certain that, you know, she's wanting what's best for the player and not being a barrier to preventing them from going overseas. But also, as we get to World cup years and Olympic years, which are much more travel heavy, there is probably less of an appetite to start playing in Europe if you're not there already and go and be part of that out equation, leaving the United States than you are in gap years like this where it's probably much more attractive.
- [45:38]
Abby Wambach
I was going to say that, jules, like the 28 Olympics and the 31 Women's World cup that will be here, that might be a real benefit to players staying. And maybe that's why some of them are going over now to get a couple years of European experience and then come back prior to the 28 and 31 World Championships.
- [46:00]
Julie Foudy
Yeah.
- [46:01]
Haley Carter
And.
- [46:03]
Julie Foudy
And back to Abby's question of, like, what we could do now. Is there no way you could go in? I'm bringing the designated player back up. Is there no way you could go in and be like, hey, let's just add a few designated player spots so that we give ourselves. Could you amend that? I mean, how quickly could something like that happen?
- [46:23]
Haley Carter
So it's, you know, the board of governors is obviously reviewing all of these different. There's been a lot of data that's been presented to them around the salary cap space and as one aspect of talent attraction and retention. So there's a board meeting in November. I have no doubt that they're going to be exploring those things in further detail. But one thing that is just A reality. So don't come back to the messenger here is that any time the board wants to do something like that, they bargain with the Players Association. So it's a process. Could they unilaterally do it? Yeah, they can unilaterally increase the salary cap, but they're not going to because from a business standpoint, like it's got it, it's. It's a two way street. Right. So there's a collection.
- [47:12]
Julie Foudy
Maybe they don't bargaining, but they give themselves flexibility with a designated player potentially.
- [47:17]
Haley Carter
But I, that would have to go to the Players association. So again, I'm just giving you the facts here, like I'm just telling you how the governance works. But I agree with this sort of like sense of urgency and that's something that I've, you know, I can speak to my experience that I've communicated to our ownership on is that we can't be reactive in this. We've got to start taking some proactive approaches. And I think, Abby, you thinking about the 28 Olympics and the 31 World cup, that being a good time for athletes to come back is that's kind of the timeline that we've got to be thinking on is where do we want to be as a league in the next five years and how do we take the steps to get there and sort of plan our way backwards?
- [48:05]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, I just think that it's really important knowing.
- [48:09]
Haley Carter
Right. Like. Yeah, well, just knowing who we're competing with. Right. Are we competing with other leagues? Are we competing with a handful of clubs in Europe? Like what does that, what does that look like?
- [48:22]
Abby Wambach
We just have to.
- [48:23]
Haley Carter
I think right now we're competing with a handful of clubs.
- [48:25]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, I agree with you. There's only a handful of clubs that have money that's shelling it out. But I do think we have to remember that the reason why our women's national team has had so much interesting success not just on the field, but popularity in public mindset, is because there were a handful of players who were really well known. Yes, we won, that mattered. But these really well known players, the Mia Hams, the Alex Morgans of the world, the Megan Rapinoe, the Abby Wambachs of the world.
- [49:01]
Julie Foudy
Yes, Abby Lombach of the world.
- [49:03]
Abby Wambach
But like we have to establish this new generation of players as the premier and the popular, the thing that people want to come and watch. Yes, everybody matters and I totally know that and I. Every player on my team mattered and everybody on this call, I think knows that. But we have to promote the league. And we have to have the best players in the world in this league playing on this soil in order for the NWSL to thrive. And I, and I just, I know that this is very nuanced and I get the pragmatism because I also am an owner. And you know, at the end of the day, there's only a finite resource amount of money to go around. But are there more conversations? Are there more, Are there things that we haven't even thought of? Like we go to designated player because that's what the MLS did. Is there a different way? We are, we are a women's league. We don't have to do it the exact same way other male leaks have done.
- [50:01]
Julie Foudy
No, we innovate.
- [50:03]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [50:04]
Haley Carter
That's why I was saying like the player performance pool. I don't think anybody, like, of all of the different recommendations that I've seen, nobody's thought about incentivizing top performing players to go and earn. Yeah, I like that, you know, half a million dollars a year on top of their salary. That, that doesn't necessarily hit the cap. I love it because it drives performance. Yeah.
- [50:26]
Julie Foudy
But it incentivizes.
- [50:27]
Haley Carter
I think you're right. I think we, I think we do need to innovate. And to be very clear, I also. We're just in a different position than the mls. Right. When you look at where the NWSL is in comparison to other women's leagues in the world, we're a league leading league. Like a world leading league. I don't not going to say we're the best league in the world. Every time somebody says that, I'm like, why? Like you're not gonna like. It's just like American last year.
- [50:54]
Julie Foudy
You're not world champions from last year's win. I hate when us teams do that, do that. So annoying.
- [51:01]
Haley Carter
We are a very strong league and we are different than other leagues. Right. We do have this crazy parody. You talk about three points separating third from seventh place and the chaos that's coming our way on November 2nd. Right. Like, fans love that shit. I hate it. Fans love it. They live for that. Right?
- [51:19]
Abby Wambach
So.
- [51:19]
Haley Carter
And you don't see that anywhere else in the world.
- [51:21]
Julie Foudy
So yeah, great point.
- [51:23]
Haley Carter
The concept of the cap to create this sort of chaotic world of parody that we live in that everybody enjoys so much. Makes sense. But, but to your point, Abby, I think we've got a. I do think we've got to innovate and get really creative around. How can we continue to afford the world's best players? Because clubs and other member associations that want to develop the women's game are creating these leagues. They're going to come for me when we start making comparisons or we start taking suggestions from what MLS does. Like, I shudder a little bit because I don't think we should be making decisions. We're like, in a pole position, right? And we want to stay in a pole position. And so how we make strategic decisions is inevitably going to be different to how the MLS has made strategic decisions. And that's not a bust on the MLS by any means. It's just the reality, like, where we sit and how we make those decisions is going to be different. And I worry, too, about women's Super League in particular, because I think if there's any league that we would be competing with, it's what's happening in England because of the amount of. Of owners and different investment structures and levels that are coming, but also because they have the Premier League playbook, right? Like, these are clubs that in the 90s, like, broke off and became this, like, behemoth commercial enterprise. And that makes me nervous. So not just the player salary, but the whole kit and caboodle around, like, if they get really serious about how they want to grow, like, that's what we're gonna. We're gonna be competing with a women's version of Premier League. And that's a lot, right? I mean, think about where, you know, every. Every Saturday and Sunday morning, I'm watching Peacock.
- [53:14]
Julie Foudy
Yeah.
- [53:15]
Haley Carter
Like, that's what I'm doing.
- [53:16]
Julie Foudy
And you're competing against, as we said at the top, these global iconic brands.
- [53:22]
Haley Carter
Yes. Huge brands.
- [53:24]
Julie Foudy
Huge brands that have reach. Big, big reach. Okay? So not to end on a depressing note like that. God, Haley, if you're. If you're a casual listener right now and. Or a huge NWSL fan listening to this right now, right? And we call our listeners the party people. What can the party people do? Right? Obviously, they're not sitting on the cap table. They're not owners of teams. But what can a fan do to help ensure that this is one of the best leagues in the world and attracting the best players?
- [54:05]
Haley Carter
I think it's all. It's all about the revenue share. So watch games, go to games, buy the merch. Like, do everything that you can to increase revenue share.
- [54:14]
Julie Foudy
Well, Haley, thank you, friend, for taking the time for. For educating us and talking about all this. And I don't know if it actually reduced my anxiety vacillation, but I think. I think that will only be reduced when we're retaining and attracting the best in the world. And best of luck to you this season as you close it out and into the playoffs. And Abs and I are going to be in San Jose for the NWSL championship weekend, so we hope to see you there playing. Not there as a family.
- [54:49]
Haley Carter
I won't be there. Yeah, I will be there. But I hope that I don't get to see you because. Right. Because you're preoccupied with our club. But thank you, guys for the time. I appreciate it. And I think the thing that makes me feel better when I think about all of this, because it does give me anxiety. It's like one of the things that keeps me up at night is that the conversations are being had.
- [55:12]
Abby Wambach
Yes.
- [55:12]
Haley Carter
Right. Like, who ever could have thought, like, progress is happening?
- [55:19]
Abby Wambach
Yeah.
- [55:21]
Haley Carter
You know, it's just. It's. It's a governance structure with 16 owners. And so, yeah, you know, navigating it takes a little bit of time. But the chief soccer officers. There have been a lot of things this year that all 14 current CSOs that are playing in the league now have been unanimous on, and that never happens. And adjustments to the salary cap have been one of those things. So. Yeah, so have a little bit.
- [55:50]
Julie Foudy
So you saying there's a chance?
- [55:51]
Haley Carter
There's a chance.
- [55:53]
Julie Foudy
All right. Let's do a little party pose before. Before you get off. It's the last thing we do with our guests. Do you have a party pose? I have to think about mine.
- [56:00]
Haley Carter
What is a party pose?
- [56:02]
Abby Wambach
Just whatever you want. Like, something fun, whenever.
- [56:05]
Julie Foudy
Yeah. What is your party pose?
- [56:07]
Abby Wambach
This is gonna be mine today.
- [56:14]
Julie Foudy
Okay. On three. One, two, three. We did not do this whole interview in our costumes, but it sounds like the league is finally starting to face those old ghosts. Head on, I hope.
- [56:34]
Abby Wambach
Yes. Agreed. And you can feel it, right? So something feels like it's shifting. The future's still a little creepy, a little foggy, but there is a real life in it now. Progress isn't perfect, but it's happening. It's happening, folks.
- [56:50]
Julie Foudy
You know that you said Glennon is a little embarrassed by your costume. My kids every year are like, honestly, mom, the whoopee cushion again? Yes. Because you. You can't really move around in that thing. This thing, I can do whatever I want. It's felt. It needs a little dry cleaning. But what do you got for your costumes, party people? What do you got? Because let's hope it's better than the salary cap.
- [57:16]
Abby Wambach
Okay, show us what you got, people. I'm sitting in a toilet. Can't Be better than can't be better than mine.
- [57:24]
Julie Foudy
Don't forget to subscribe to welcome to the party YouTube channel. Click that little bell icon so you can sit and watch Abby sitting in a toilet. Literally. And you'll also know when episode episodes actually go live. So there you have it.
- [57:39]
Abby Wambach
Yeah, you guys, thank you so much. And also, we really. I've been reading all of the comments on the Apple podcast page. We love you so much for commenting. If you haven't commented, we would really love it if you rated, reviewed, and also subscribe to to the podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And just also be sure to follow us on TikTok and Instagram @ welcome to the Party show. That's where we're going to be sending you all the things that you need to know about what we're up to. So that's it.
- [58:08]
Julie Foudy
Welcome to the Farty Show. Or if you're a toilet, welcome to the Shardy Show.
- [58:16]
Abby Wambach
Happy Halloween, everybody. Stay spooky and keep showing up and supporting what women's sports. We love you.
- [58:22]
Julie Foudy
All right, put a. Put a paw in. I don't know, put a bone in. Put a skeleton in. Whatever you have. Hoof fang. Put it in, whatever you've got. Reach into the middle of that huddle from your soul. Party people. Two aerosol cans in. Put them in. Three, two, one. Usa Ooza. Usa.
- [58:41]
Abby Wambach
Usa. Usa.
- [58:42]
Haley Carter
Oh.
- [58:45]
Abby Wambach
Welcome to the Party is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. Silvertribe is our production partner and you can also watch our full conversations on the welcome to the party YouTube channel and follow us at welcome to the Party show on Instagram and TikTok.