Why the Best Teams High Five More - And Science Proves It

Summary

Welcome to the Party – Episode Summary

Podcast: Welcome to the Party
Episode: Why the Best Teams High Five More – And Science Proves It
Date: April 2, 2026
Hosts: Abby Wambach & Julie Foudy
Guests: Adam Grant (organizational psychologist), Jordan Robinson (resident hoops expert)
Theme: The science and culture behind team chemistry, celebratory touches, and building winning teams in women’s sports

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the role of team chemistry in women’s sports, especially the importance of physical connection (like high-fives and hugs) in fostering success. Abby and Julie break down the Women's NCAA Final Four matchups, discuss the evolving culture of championship teams, and sit down with organizational psychologist Adam Grant for a deep-dive on the science behind culture, leadership, and the powerful impact of positive team interactions. They also explore why some teams thrive year after year—and how seemingly small acts like high-fives are actually major predictors of team success.

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Women’s Final Four Recap & Bracket Update

[02:00 – 07:22]

Key Points

• Final Four Consistency: For the first time in 30 years, the same four teams are back—UConn, South Carolina, Texas, and UCLA—all number one seeds this year ([02:00]).
• Game Recaps:
  • UConn controlled Notre Dame, 70–52 ([02:36]).
  • UCLA had a tougher game but pulled away from Duke, 70–58 ([02:58]).
  • Texas dominated Michigan, outscoring opponents by 142 points in the tournament ([03:31]).
• Bracket Leaderboards and Listener Shoutouts:
  • Sarah Spain leads the internal pod challenge.
  • Listener “lucasf daddy 12” correctly predicted every Sweet 16 and Elite 8 game ([06:49]).

Tone & Highlights

Playful banter about bracket losses—“Isa sad eyes are sad.” ([05:52], Julie). Warm camaraderie as the hosts accept defeat, poke fun at their own time zone confusions ([04:11]), and cheer on listeners and staff.

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Expert Hoops Analysis with Jordan Robinson

[07:28 – 23:30]

Key Points

• Texas vs. UCLA Preview:
  • Texas comes in with high confidence, having beaten UCLA earlier in the season, but Abby sees this rematch as an opportunity for UCLA to play pressure-free and motivated ([10:37] Abby; [09:03] Jordan).
  • “Texas has looked incredible... They made Michigan look like they shouldn’t even have been on the same level.” ([09:12] Jordan)
• UConn vs. South Carolina Preview:
  • UConn showed signs of vulnerability but still dominated overall.
  • “If you dig yourself too much of a hole... there’s no coming back from it.” ([12:57] Jordan)
• Psychology & Team Belief:
  • Defeating “the aura of UConn” is as mental as physical: “It’s not losing before you step on the court.” ([14:22] Abby)

Notable Quote

• “They already scored points on you without even scoring a basket.” ([14:46] Jordan, on UConn’s psychological edge)

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The Science of Touch & Team Chemistry

[16:46 – 23:30]

Key Insights

• Celebratory Touches Matter:
  • Abby references a study showing NBA teams with the most physical touches (high-fives, huddles, chest bumps) enjoy more success (“teams that touched each other the most on the court end up getting into the championship” – [17:25] Abby).
  • Julie and intern Hansel conducted an unofficial study counting in-game touches across Final Four teams. Example: UCLA had 47 touches, UConn 69, Texas 14, South Carolina 11, just in first quarter ([18:45]).
• Touch as Culture:
  • Encouragement and connection go beyond “Xs and Os.” Teams with stronger visible support rally better during adversity ([21:34] Jordan).

Notable Moments

• “There's just a vibe, there's a feel. All the national team teams that I won championships with those games, I knew in my body we were winning.” ([18:13] Abby)
• Jordan notes that more team support gestures came when UConn was struggling, illustrating the importance of lifting up teammates during tough moments.

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Interview: Adam Grant on Team Culture, Leadership & “High-Five Science”

[25:05 – 67:20]

Adam’s Magic (and Real) Credentials

• Reveals his background as a paid magician, comparing the wonder of tricks to the magic of team dynamics ([26:04]).

Building Culture from Scratch

[28:49 – 30:53]

• Prioritize either purpose, people, or routines depending on your context, but “all the pieces need to be there.”
• Start by sharing stories of best and worst cultures you’ve experienced—reverse engineer what works ([30:53]).

Maintaining & Onboarding Team Culture

[33:21 – 36:27]

• Turnover can be healthy, bringing fresh perspective and preventing group stagnation.
• Newcomers should act as culture “detectives,” offering notes on what’s working and what isn’t.

“They…bring the advantage of not having drank the Kool-Aid yet, so they can hold up a mirror and help you see your own culture more clearly.” ([33:31] Adam Grant)

Servant Leadership & “Modeling the Standard”

[36:27 – 39:41]

• Abby and Julie share rituals—like senior players eating with newcomers, picking up cones, moving equipment—to humanize and set standards.
• Billie Jean King sets an example by thanking support staff, showing that respect is a core team value.

High-Fives, Takers, Matchers, and Givers

[42:26 – 45:03]

• Adam summarizes research:
  • A single “taker” (selfish teammate) can do 2–3x more damage to team culture than a generous “giver” can help.
  • “It is critical to keep the wrong people off your bus.” ([43:11] Adam)
  • The right mix: Givers + “Matchers” (who value fairness and reciprocity).
  • Some tolerance for difficult personalities exists in sports—if their excellence is essential—but beware: “bad is stronger than good” ([43:14], Adam).

Celebratory Touch Confirmed by Science

[49:00 – 49:52]

• Adam details the NBA study: teams with more celebratory physical touches in early season games went on to have better seasons.
• Julie: “It reveals where the team is at with their relationships.” ([50:10])

Gender, Leadership, and Empathy

[50:10 – 54:57]

• Evidence shows teams with women leaders in government and business fared better during crises (e.g., COVID), often stemming from higher empathy and concern.
• Adam warns against pigeon-holing female leaders only as collaborative; value all their strengths.

Instinct vs. Analysis for Athletes

[57:59 – 61:39]

• Both Abby and Julie share how overthinking can trip up performance. Adam recommends focusing on one change at a time and only occasionally stepping back for a big-picture rethink.
• “You can only improve one thing at a time, because you can only focus on one thing at a time.” ([61:39] Adam Grant)

Multisport Kids & Early Specialization

[62:46 – 67:02]

• Adam argues for “well-rounded” kids—multi-sport backgrounds predict higher eventual achievement.
• Seasonality and cross-training are good strategies, even if systems pressure kids to specialize early.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Abby: “There's just a vibe, there's a feel. All the national team teams that I won championships with, those games, I knew in my body we were winning.” ([18:13])
• Adam Grant: “It is nice to have the right people on your bus, but it is critical to keep the wrong people off your bus.” ([43:11])
• Julie: “It reveals where the team is at with their relationships.” ([50:10])
• Adam Grant: “Bad is stronger than good.” ([43:14])
• Jordan: “They already scored points on you without even scoring a basket.” ([14:46])
• Adam Grant: “Make it feel wrong. The only way to get it right is to make it feel wrong.” ([61:46])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Women’s March Madness Recap & Bracket Fun: [02:00 – 07:22]
• Final Four Matchup Previews (with Jordan Robinson): [07:28 – 23:30]
• Touch & Team Chemistry, Unofficial Study Results: [18:45 – 23:30]
• Adam Grant Interview (Team Building, Takers/Givers, Culture): [25:05 – 67:20]
  • Building Culture from Scratch: [28:49 – 30:53]
  • Onboarding, Turnover, and Fresh Eyes: [33:21 – 36:27]
  • High-Fives, NBA Science: [49:00 – 49:52]
  • Impact of Takers in Team Culture: [42:26 – 45:03]
  • Instinct vs. Overthinking (for Athletes): [57:59 – 61:39]
  • Multisport Specialization Debate: [62:46 – 67:02]

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• Celebratory touch isn’t fluff—it’s a scientific predictor of team performance.
• Team chemistry can be built, rebuilt, and is constantly evolving, but it needs shared purpose, servant leadership, and modeling from the top down.
• Cutting “takers” and elevating “givers/matchers” can transform a team’s trajectory, and leaders (especially established stars) set the invisible rules.
• Instinct and joy matter in performance—don’t overthink, but occasionally rethink with intention.
• Multi-sport backgrounds create champions—early specialization isn’t the only path.

The ultimate message: It’s not just what happens on the court, but the small moments between teammates—high fives, encouragement, showing up and serving each other—that build legendary teams.

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For listeners: Even if you missed the episode, you'll come away understanding why the best teams high-five more, how elite teams continuously craft a positive, winning culture, and why every leader (in sports, business, or life) should care about the science of touch, the power of givers, and the stories we share.

Transcript

[Adam Grant]

Protein is now at Starbucks and it's never tasted so good. You can add protein cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes or matcha. Try it today at Starbucks.

[Abby Wambach]

K Pop Demon Hunters, Haja Boy's Breakfast Meal and Hunt Tricks Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi?

[Julie Foudy]

It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take

[Jordan Robinson]

breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[Adam Grant]

It is an honor to share.

[Abby Wambach]

No, it's our honor.

[Adam Grant]

It is our larger honor.

[Abby Wambach]

No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side

[Adam Grant]

and participate in McDonald's while supplies last.

[Julie Foudy]

Is this your first party? No.

[Adam Grant]

It might be. As an introvert, I've never been excited to come to a party until now. The teams that had the best trajectories were the ones where players physically touched each other. More celebratory touch.

[Abby Wambach]

As soon as we went out to training, I would kick their ass. Oh, like off the field, where people on the field, we're ruthless and we go after each other.

[Adam Grant]

It's nice to have the right people on your bus, but it is critical to keep the wrong people off your bus.

[Julie Foudy]

Attention.

[Abby Wambach]

The party is about to commence.

[Julie Foudy]

Welcome to the party. What's up, party people? I'm Julie Foudy.

[Abby Wambach]

And I'm Abby Wambach. How's it going, Jules?

[Julie Foudy]

Hi, Abs. Coming up, party people, if you want to understand why some teams are still dancing in March, this is the conversation you need to hear. We have one of the most sought after minds in the world of organizational psychology on the pod, the Adam Grant.

[Abby Wambach]

Yo. Don't want to miss this whole conversation. This episode is gonna blow your mind. This is one of my favorite episodes we've ever done, y'.

[Julie Foudy]

All.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, for real?

[Julie Foudy]

Yeah, for reals. But first, Abs. The Final Four is set. Oh, my gosh. Okay, all of them are number one seeds, but for the first time in 30 years, it's the same four teams that are all back in the Women's Final Four from last year. They are. UConn, South Carolina, Texas is your third, UCLA is your fourth. And as we know, UConn easily handled Notre Dame 70 to 52. And that Elite Eight game punched their ticket first. And that game was pretty controlled start to finish, which we've seen. Although I would say it was probably the hardest game that UConn we've seen play in this tournament. UCLA had a bit Tighter game. Um, I had kind of a squeaky bum at halftime. I'm not gonna lie.

[Abby Wambach]

First half was tough. First half was tough against Duke, and they picked it up. They picked it up.

[Julie Foudy]

They picked it up. They. They separated in the second half. Got it done. 70 to 58 against Duke to punch their ticket. Texas. This one is. This one hurts.

[Abby Wambach]

This one hurts us. We had Michigan. We had Michigan. And this hurts.

[Julie Foudy]

Texas just handled Michigan. 77 to Michigan. It was like an ouch. Ouch for Michigan. Ouch for us with our bracket challenge, which we'll get into.

[Abby Wambach]

Texas is good, though.

[Julie Foudy]

Texas is really good.

[Abby Wambach]

They're really good.

[Julie Foudy]

And listen to this. In the tournament ABS, Texas has now outscored teams by 142 points heading into the Final Four. Okay, do you want me to say that again? Texas in this tournament. That's the March Madness, has now outscored teams by 142 points total heading into the Final Four. They. They look really good that Final four game. Texas versus UCLA tips on Friday at 4pm Pacific on ESPN 7pm Eastern.

[Abby Wambach]

If you guys can't do the math, like, I can never do the math.

[Julie Foudy]

We both are a little bit time zone challenged. Okay, so let's get to our welcome to the bracket party update.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, man.

[Julie Foudy]

Okay.

[Abby Wambach]

Hurts my heart.

[Julie Foudy]

This hurts my heart. But I'm gonna put my basketball cap back on for the last time maybe. Okay, maybe not the last time. This is never the last time.

[Abby Wambach]

It's never the last time.

[Julie Foudy]

Okay, so here is the update. Heading into the final four. On top. This is the pod leaderboard. On top of the good game with Sarah Spain at 1140 points.

[Abby Wambach]

I. She just has done it. She's just done it. She's done it. And I don't.

[Julie Foudy]

Sarah. Okay, Making a late run a touch more. And the women's game now in second place.

[Abby Wambach]

How did this happen?

[Julie Foudy]

1060 points. They did not choose Michigan is how this happened.

[Abby Wambach]

God dang it.

[Julie Foudy]

Welcome to the party. Drop down. And it is in now third place with 1020 points. Glennon in the recap show in fourth place with 10. 10 points. And time wasting, 990 points. And coach Jackie bringing up the rear. 920 points.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, Jules, I. I think it's sweet that you're saying when we're in third, we're technically in fourth. And then Glennon. Yeah. So it's just the way that it goes. Unfortunately. I am sad. I have a. Sad eyes. Are sad. One of our kids, when they were young, they. They'd say, isa sad

[Julie Foudy]

eyes are Sad eyes are sad. Okay. And happier news, our staff leaderboard. Taylor Tater Tots is winning the staff challenge at 11, 140 points. And Jack, our editor Jack B. Nimble's pick was his group in second place with 1080. Good, good. Group names, Emma, our intern. Listen to her. Her group name. Frat boy in the past life. Okay, Emma.

[Abby Wambach]

I want to know what that means. Also Taylor. Just because we have Taylor, who's tied with Sarah Spain, we are. We are tangentially also in the lead.

[Julie Foudy]

Yeah, by the transitive property. That means we too are in the lead because we know Taylor. Listener leaderboard for all the listeners out there, Lucas F. Daddy, 12 crushing it with 1220 points.

[Abby Wambach]

Wow.

[Julie Foudy]

He predicted every Sweet 16 and Elite 8 game correctly. And when you do that, what, you just rise to the top. He's only had five. Or I shouldn't say, he could be. Who's your daddy? He. He or she has only had five total incorrect picks throughout the tournament.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Lucasf Daddy, well done. Well done. That is. Maybe we'll give. We'll give them a call next. Next year.

[Julie Foudy]

I think I can finally rip this ridiculous.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, rip it out.

[Julie Foudy]

Yes.

[Abby Wambach]

Rip it off. Get your other hat on. And up next, Jordan's coming back, right? I can't wait to see her.

[Julie Foudy]

Jordan. Now we want to welcome back our resident hoop expert. She's not only the host of the women's hoop show, but she co wrote a fantastic book, Court Queens, which follows women's basketball from the 1890s all the way to today. Jordan Robinson, welcome back to the party.

[Abby Wambach]

Jordan.

[Jordan Robinson]

I am so excited to be back and I am so proud because you guys are basketball experts, March Madness pros. And I couldn't be more proud of what I've been seeing.

[Julie Foudy]

Stop it. I think it's my thinking cap, my basketball cap. It helps. I want to say I forgot it in the last show and that's what caused us to move down the leaderboard, sadly, is I forgot to put my thinking cap back on. Okay, Jordan, let's. Let's talk about this. This Final Four, because first we have that Texas UCLA game, which, I mean, Texas has looked good all season, but goodness gracious, on Monday night versus Michigan, oh, they looked. They looked smoking good. I mean, they made 11 of their first 12 shots. Madison Booker had 19 of their 77 points. Rory Harmon went off, as always, a handful, and they're the only team that has beaten UCLA this year. Is that a good thing or a bad thing, you think for ucla?

[Jordan Robinson]

I think it's A very bad thing for ucla, I'll be honest. I'm so sorry.

[Julie Foudy]

Oh, no, don't say that. I want to rephrase that question then.

[Jordan Robinson]

Texas has look, looked incredible you mentioned with that Michigan game. I mean, Michigan is a two seed. They made them look like they weren't even on the court. They weren't even, they shouldn't even have been on the same level as Texas. And so when you talk about that start that they had 11 for 12, that was the best start ever under Vic Schaefer, like their best start ever to a game. They're peaking at the right time in the tournament. And, and we've seen it all with these 1 seeds. They dominated the elite eight by an average of 23 points for these wins. These were not close games. So I'm excited that we get all 1 seeds in the Final Four because it's the best of the best to really prove themselves. But for ucla, you have this Texas team that's coming in playing their best basketball ever. They are so confident and now they're like, oh, we have to play a team we already beat before. Oh, we're even more confident to go through them to get to the championship game. So that's where the pressure is on UCLA to say, okay, you aren't going to beat us again. We have to learn from our only loss of the season. What changed? How have we grown since then? That was in November, around Thanksgiving. So these are two different teams, but I think they're both going really well. But Texas is like really, really good right now.

[Abby Wambach]

This is why I think, though, for me, if I'm, if I'm ucla, I feel less pressure in a way. Okay. Because I'm like, I'm thinking, look, we've got nothing to lose here. I'm thinking, I'm still pissed about that loss earlier in the season. That's the thing that kind of motivates me. And if I'm Texas, psychologically, our kids even do it. They're like, oh, the last time we beat, we played them, we beat that team 2 to 0. So it's going to be. And there's something psychologically that allows your, your defenses to kind of lower. So that's what I'm hoping for.

[Julie Foudy]

I like that. I like that theory. You do know, Jordan, that we picked ucla?

[Jordan Robinson]

Yes, I am picking up on that very quickly.

[Julie Foudy]

Talking. Talking herself into it.

[Abby Wambach]

No, but sincerely, I do believe, I do believe. I do believe that there's a way through this. And for ucla, they're going to have to play Extremely well. And that's true.

[Julie Foudy]

Okay. And the other match, it's a rematch of the 2025 final. UConn versus South Carolina. And I guess my question is, can anyone beat UConn? They're so good on so many levels.

[Jordan Robinson]

They are so good, but I, I feel like they show themselves as human. These last couple games, we, we got to see some, some cracks in the offense and the defense, where I feel like all season long they have been blemish free, you know, dismantling teams by 30, 40 points. But Notre Dame and Hannah Hidalgo, I mean, what an incredible defensive, annoying gnat she has been throughout this tournament. And she was rattling them a little bit. That started that Notre Dame Yukon game. You saw Gino on the sideline just looking. Not worried, but he was looking a little angrier than normal because it wasn't UConn playing how they know how to play. I think that was probably Az Fudd's worst game, Sarah Strong's worst first half. They turned it around in the second half and were able to win by 18 points. You guys know if you dig yourself too much of a hole with some teams that you play against, there's no coming back from. We saw that with South Carolina in the championship game last year. They've had slow starts all year. We know it tried to turn it on and UConn was already up by 30. It's too late. So that's something that I'm going to be looking out for this matchup.

[Julie Foudy]

Okay, I like that.

[Abby Wambach]

Go.

[Julie Foudy]

Sorry. Go ahead.

[Abby Wambach]

You just got to press UConn. And I think why Gino is so upset is because that high pressure was forcing, you know, Az and Sarah Strong into some unforced errors. Because sometimes when somebody's like all over you, you're like, ah. And you're not used to it because so many teams give them so much respect that they don't play them with such high intense pressure defensively. To me, that that is the way that I would, I would go out there. I'm not a coach, but that's what I would do. I'm not a basketball coach, but that's

[Jordan Robinson]

what I would do.

[Julie Foudy]

And I agree with you. I was having that same thought, like with Notre Dame staying with them fairly close. I mean, the closest anyone has gotten to UConn is Michigan got within three in November. That's the closest. But it made you think in that Elite Eight game, okay, okay. Like if I'm watching and I'm another team, like maybe they are mere mortals, actually, when you put UConn on such a different pedestal all the time because of what they've done so, so consistently, year after year.

[Abby Wambach]

So maybe I think the psychology, the battle of the brain and the mind is part of. Is maybe the biggest part of going against a UConn. It's not losing before you step on the court. It's believing that you can actually do it. It's playing with them every single time you come down the court. Like, it's. It's not losing before you step on the court. That. That is such an important quality. I think that these players have to

[Jordan Robinson]

have this idea of just playing against the UConn. For a lot of teams, they're just already like, oh, my gosh, how can we. Could we win? Or how are we going to be down by 50? And they already scored points on you without even scoring a basket? And I don't think South Carolina has that same type of fear because they have played them so many times and they know. They know what they have to do. They just have to go out and execute it. But for so many teams in this tournament, the UConn across the chest is, oh, we're. We're already down.

[Abby Wambach]

We, we.

[Jordan Robinson]

And for UConn, that helps for you because you're like, great. We didn't even have to do anything, and now we're already up 10 points. So it is a lot of that psychological aspect.

[Julie Foudy]

Did you. Did you see the. The little exchange between Gino and Hannah Hidalgo after. After the game when he was like, are you old enough to go pro? And she's. And she's like, I'm gonna stay in for one more year because I want another shot at you. I was like, I love is what she told. Is what she told Gino. Okay, Jordan, as we know, for teams to make it to the Final Four, yes, you need X's nos. Yes, you need, of course, great players to get you to the highest level. But Abby and I have been talking a lot about what we think at the highest level is the most underrated piece of the puzzle, and that is team chemistry. So we have been watching that, and obviously, we're about to interview Adam Grant, who is the master of all these things. But we've been obsessed with that because that was such a piece of our puzzle with the national team in terms of, you know, post game pressers, post game interviews, the dances, the high fives, the hugs. I mean, all of it. There are so many things if you're looking for it. And when you start as a viewer looking for It. It is fascinating, Abs, what has stood out most to you?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, and I think this kind of goes along the mental mindset that these players need to have when they're coming into the game, especially when you're going against an opponent Like a UConn. Right. Like, you have to draw on more than just the X's and O's and the skills that you have. You have to draw on each other and lean on each other and utilize the connection and that chemistry in your favor. Like, you have to figure out how to tip it, tip the scales in your favor in that way. And there's just like, some basic things that we did on the national team. One thing. I know this sounds so silly, and this touching thing that we talk about with Adam, and I think you've mentioned it to us before, Jordan, that, like, the teams that touched each other the most end up winning or. And they followed the long study in the NBA, the teams that touch them, that touch each other the most on the court end up getting into the championship. Like, there's, like, quantifiable data that you can actually figure out. When I look at. At the. The rosters and I see the players and I see them, like, really loving on each other, especially after they're winning, you know that the standup with Lauren Betts and the entire UCLA team is behind her. And so when she's giving her presser one on one, all she's talking about is the team behind her. And, like, that is such a beautiful thing about sport that the chemistry of the whole can really rise. The energy and, like, the vibration of what the team and the output of the team. I don't know. I just think it's a fascinating thing, and there's no way to. I know that we try to quantify it, but there's just a vibe, there's a feel. All the national team teams that I won championships with those games, I knew. I knew in my body we were winning.

[Julie Foudy]

We quantified it because we went to our intern Hansel and said, hansel, can you. And this is very official. This is our study unofficial. Can you look at the four teams are in. In the final four? Then how many touches going back to that study, Abby, that you talked about, that Adam Grant is going to talk about in our interview, how many touches did each team have in the first quarter? And so he broke down the film. Okay, so listen to this, Jordan, you're going to. You're going to be like, what? So this is the elite eight matchup they had. So UCLA had 47 touches, 34 high fives, two pats, three back touches, three huddle ups, one back push. I don't know if a tush push counts, but we're counting it.

[Jordan Robinson]

One back push.

[Julie Foudy]

Count it. Two waist touches, two hands lifting from the ground. I don't know what that is, but. Okay, thank you.

[Abby Wambach]

Picking somebody up from the ground. Two hand lift.

[Julie Foudy]

There you go. Oh, lifting. I'm sorry. Okay. Lifting someone up from the ground. So UCLA had 47 touches. Okay. Texas, who they're playing, had 14 touches in their first quarter of the Elite Eight game. Seven high fives, four back touches, three chest bumps. Three chest bumps should count as, like, double.

[Jordan Robinson]

I know, that's pretty good.

[Abby Wambach]

You're actually touching two things.

[Julie Foudy]

You're like, we have this great picture of Abby and I chest bumping at an Angel City game, but we wanted it to be our podcast cover. They're like, no. Okay, Yukon. So UCLA had 47. Texas had 14. UConn had 69 touches. Jordan, 44 high fives, 16 pats, five huddle ups, two back pushes, two hands, hand lifts from the ground. That's just in the first quarter. And South Carolina, surprisingly enough, had only 11 touches. Four high fives, four hand pickups from the ground, and three back touches.

[Abby Wambach]

And just to note, this is obviously very raw data, and it's dependent on the television and what the TV is looking at. So I'm thinking it's the camera probably had. Yeah, they probably had more focus on UConn players because they were scoring more points in the first quarter.

[Julie Foudy]

So anyway, it's our unofficial study. Also, like, Texas was pressing a bit more. So when you're, like, pressing right away, getting into the press, obviously you're not like, hey, I need a high five before you go into your press.

[Jordan Robinson]

Well, you know what's interesting that sticks out to me is that if I'm Remembering correctly, that UConn first quarter, they were not doing well. They were.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Jordan Robinson]

They had a slow, slow start. So I think that actually speaks more to it, that they were doing it touching each other more to lift each other up because they were not doing well. Like, I was paying attention to AZ Fudd's body language when she was missing shots and her teammates were still high fiving her, encouraging her to shoot more because she's one of the best shooters on the planet. They were speaking life into her and still encouraging her on those shots. Yeah, so that's actually such a good point. Very interesting to me that they weren't doing so well.

[Julie Foudy]

Right, Numbers.

[Jordan Robinson]

That's fun. That's a good.

[Julie Foudy]

I know.

[Abby Wambach]

I'm just going to say something so wild and. And woo woo. So bear with me, folks.

[Julie Foudy]

I love when she goes woo woo on it.

[Abby Wambach]

I really believe in this shit. I really believe in the power of connection. Because sport is so weird and random and that every person who has the ball makes a decision and you have to be in connection with your teammates. And it's not just repetition. In practice, yes, that's a part of it. But you have to believe that your teammate is going to be where they're supposed to be and that there's space between us. So how are we connecting in this moment? And part of it is making sure that you're keeping that connection going when the play stops. So this touching thing, I really think it matters. I really think it matters.

[Jordan Robinson]

Yeah. And there's so many levels to it, right? Because when I think of UConn, I think of them doing tiktoks off the court like every single day. They all live together.

[Abby Wambach]

They.

[Jordan Robinson]

You know, when I talked to Az for the Self magazine cover, she just said how we are, like obsessed with each other. We, my teammates, are just waiting for me when I get home in my apartment. Like we do movie nights, doing random apple picking trips.

[Julie Foudy]

I love all that. And so party people, like, while you're watching these games, these final four games, which are going to be amazing, like, pay attention to that kind of stuff too, because it just, it is, it is so very telling, especially when things go bad. And that is a great point, Jordan, about how it wasn't going great for UConn and maybe that's why they had 69 touches. Okay, Jordan, you rule. Thank you, my friend. And party people, this is all going to be continued as we are also, of course, chatting team culture, team chemistry, leadership, and all the things with Adam Grant. So stay with us. All right now to the partiest part of our party. So this conversation actually started pretty simply. We were talking about how to be build team culture in anything you do. And I do feel like people throw that word around all the time. Culture, culture. You need a good culture. You need to work on culture. Well, there's a good reason why culture drives pretty much everything. And now that Abby and I are both in different phases of that conversation and life, you start to think about all the things that actually make a team work. We all have teams. We are shaping work, teams, life, teams, who you bring in, what the standards are, what will define the culture from day one. So we thought, I wonder if one of the most influential thinkers in the world on how teams succeed, the amazing Adam Grant would sit down and talk with us about this. And here's the great news, party people. He said yes.

[Adam Grant]

He said yes.

[Julie Foudy]

We did a jig as Adam Grant, who is a renowned organizational psychologist and professor at Wharton, a five time New York Times bestselling author, including his most recent book, Hidden Potential. He actually has a new book coming out as well, called Vibe. His TED talks have been watched by tens of millions of people, and his podcast Work Life is one of the best out there on leadership and culture. We are loving that we get to pick his fabulous mind. We asked him to stay for days, but he kindly gave us the next hour. Adam Grant, welcome to the party.

[Abby Wambach]

Welcome to the party, Adam Grant.

[Adam Grant]

Dr. Grant, I. I've never been excited to come to a party until now.

[Julie Foudy]

Is this your first party? No.

[Adam Grant]

It might be as an introvert, but that was a lot of superlatives and I intend to earn none of them.

[Abby Wambach]

Good, good, good, good.

[Julie Foudy]

The thing I am dying to ask before we get to anything is can we talk about you being not just a magician, but a professional magician? I was like, do tell. I need this story.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, I think professional might be an overstatement. I just. I got paid to do shows, so technically it's was not just a hobby.

[Abby Wambach]

Do you still practice magic?

[Adam Grant]

I don't practice, but I get talked into performing a few times a year, usually for. For students or sometimes on stage. When I'm doing a keynote, somebody will say, hey, can you show us a magic trick?

[Julie Foudy]

And you have like a deck of cards in your pocket.

[Adam Grant]

I mean, I've tried not to be that guy. People think it's really dorky.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I do think that the way that you talk is magic. The way that you think is magic. So this makes it kind of tracks. You know, you're doing so much magic in your brain and in what you're researching and how you're teaching the kids what you find. So I think you're magic. I've always thought you're magic.

[Adam Grant]

Wow, that's very kind of you, Abby, but flattery will get you nowhere.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, listen, you also helped me and my wife Glennon, in an argument. We actually talk about this. We refer to this, like, once a month about me over. Yeah, the pizza. Ordering too much pizza. I always over order. And Glennon is always like, very. More like, let's count the amount of slices and count the people. And I'm like, when we have a party, especially. And Adam just Said that's a really cheap way to solve this problem. You know, he said it better, obviously, because he's more magic than me. But I refer back to this, this, this debate quite often.

[Adam Grant]

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed accidentally mediating that conflict five years ago. And I love that you still remember it.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, for sure, for sure.

[Julie Foudy]

Too much math. Just buy the pizza. Adam. We talk about culture, as you can imagine, all the time on this pod. And I am interested too in. Because everyone in different phases of their life, and I'm not just talking sports teams, of course, but they're building culture in every phase of their life. If you were someone that is perhaps building culture from scratch, right, where there's no inherited culture yet, there's no shared history, there's no pass down standards. All of that stuff when you are starting from zero. And there are a lot of people that are doing that as they transition into different phases of their life or new companies. Right. What matters most first, would you say? Is it the people, is it building the standards or is it the shared purpose or all above?

[Adam Grant]

Julie, that's like choosing a favorite child. You can't make me pick. They all matter. You know, I think, I think it actually depends on the kind of culture you're trying to build. So if you're trying to solve a problem or achieve a goal, I think purpose is, is absolutely the first priority. I think if the goal is to bond people and build community or create shared norms, I would, you know, I would focus much more on who I'm bringing in and also what are the, you know, what are the routines and practices that we're going to follow, but, but all the pieces need to be there. I think that it just really depends on, you know, what, what is this group for?

[Abby Wambach]

I think that that's interesting because I think about not just the teams on soccer fields that Julie and I played on and captained, but now in our families. Like, I think that that's an important question to ask ourselves not only around like business and whatnot, but like, what is this for? Because I think philosophically we could be, we could be. Our end goal is winning. Like for an example, on the national team, our end goal of course was always winning. That was like full stop, the most important thing. But the more I, I look back on that time, I actually have amended that thought process because I actually think that it was the relentless pursuit of excellence that was the main goal, given the fact that we of course didn't win every game and we didn't win every tournament. And so when I like in retrospect, but when I was in it, I was like, winning was everything but being a little bit more, I think, wise and mature. Looking back, I'm like, actually, I don't know if that was it. It was like pursuing excellence and pursuing, getting better, pursuing that 1% gain every single day. When you want to build culture, how, where do you begin? How do you begin?

[Adam Grant]

Abby? I think that culture is revealed through the stories we tell. It's also created through the stories we tell. There's, there's a lot of research on, on culture and workplaces, and I think this applies to sports teams and families really well, too. But at work, when you ask people to describe their culture, they talk about how unique and special it is. And then you listen to the stories and people tell the same kinds of stories. In every kind of company, there are stories about, is the big boss human? Can the little person get to the top? Am I going to get fired? And I think that, you know, oftentimes if you just ask people what their culture is, they, you know, they talk in kind of empty platitudes. If you ask them, can you tell me a story about something that happens here but would never happen elsewhere? Or can you tell me a story about a time when your team was at its best or when your family was at its worst? All of a sudden they start to bring to life what actually is distinctive in their culture. You start to hear their core values, you start to hear what practices matter to them. So I actually like to begin there. If I were pulling together a team, if I were starting a family, now, if I were launching a company, what I would say is, we've all been part of cultures in the past. Let's each tell a story about the best culture we've ever been part of and the worst culture we've ever been part of. And then our goal is to try to reverse engineer how do we emulate the good and avoid the bad.

[Julie Foudy]

That obviously takes me to our US Women's National Team and all the stories we've shared over the years and the importance of that and not even really understanding the oral history behind what we're doing right. But like, you tell the stories and you share the stories, not knowing that that then is going to, to your point, hopefully translate to something even larger. I think, too, it's. It's gotta be one of the most difficult things when you've had a really good culture. But things change. Like with the U.S. women's National Team, I think about this all the time. Like there's constantly an influx of different players coming in, so it's not the same people. And you have to rebuild and retell and reset almost all the time. And what would you say is the best practice in moments like that where you, you. You take two steps forward, and then it's like, oh, we got a different team. Two steps forward, we got a different team. How do you handle those kind of situations?

[Adam Grant]

Well, first thing is some of that trend transition and turnover can actually be healthy for a team. Right? There's. There's such a thing as. As too little turnover. I think the best data I've seen on this is in the NBA, where after teams have been together for three to four years, they actually start to stagnate because their routines get stale and they become a little more predictable. And opposing teams can study the game tape and then figure out how to beat them. And you could think about rotating players in and out as a solution to that. You could also think about rotating coaches as a way to inject some fresh perspective. But I think it's really important just at the outset to say turnover rate should not be zero. And then I think, you know, the. The process of onboarding new people can be a little bit clunky and messy. I think one of the. The first things that gets overlooked when I especially have worked with elite sports teams is they forget that when somebody new comes in. They actually bring the advantage of having not drank the Kool Aid yet, so they can hold up a mirror and help you see your own culture more clearly. So I actually like to treat new players or new employees as culture detectives and ask them, hey, can you just spend your first couple of weeks just observing and giving, giving notes on what do you think is working really well, what could be improved?

[Julie Foudy]

Interesting.

[Adam Grant]

And that gives them a voice from day one, but it also helps remind them that they don't fully know the place yet, and so they've got to pay more attention to start learning. And I like the duality there of saying, you know, we want to learn from them, but we also want them to learn who we are and what we do.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, it was actually my method of operation that any newcomer into the national team camp, any new one, we would often start every camp with like, a meal, then a meeting, and then either training that afternoon or we would start training the next morning. And every single new kid who would come in, I would stand up, I'd walk over, I'd introduce myself and be like, come, come and sit over here. And I would sit and eat with all the new kids, every single new. Every single first meal, you know, there was a part of me that knew that they were like, I was going to be one of the people that they were most nervous to meet. So if I could kind of diffuse that nerve, that they would feel a lot more comfortable throughout the rest of, like, the camp. And I found that to be, like, really interesting. And I would. I would just go into, like, question mode. So I would ask them lots of questions, like, where are you from? And talk more about, like, life stuff than soccer stuff, like, you know, how many brothers and sisters you have, your parents, your family. So it would just humanize. It would make them feel a little bit more, like, welcomed and human into the. Into the team. And then, you know, as soon as we went out to training, I would kick their ass. And I would be, like, very, like, you know, stern and tough. And so they would get that instant understanding, like, oh, like off the field, where people on the field were ruthless and we go after each other.

[Adam Grant]

Abby, I love that example. You did leave out one little detail, though, which is it matters so much more when a star player or a person with power status does that. Right. Because one, you're. You're making those new players feel really special that you took time to do that. Right. It wasn't, it wasn't a bench warmer. It's, you know, it's the, it's the star. And secondly, that then sets the tone for everybody else on the team. Okay. If Abby's doing this, that's, you know, she's a role model. We need to follow that lead.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right. I think that having the role models and some of the best players on the team not just be the vocal, outward facing faces and voices of the team itself, but, like, what's happening behind the scenes. You know, Julie and I talk a lot about the. The servant leadership that she and I tried to not just promote, but actually embody, you know, picking up cones. I don't want to pick up cones after a practice. It's the last thing I want to do. Grabbing the equipment bag and throwing it underneath the bus or throwing it in the back of a van, like, that's not something I want to do. But I'm like, look, if this is going to be seen by everybody, that this player is doing this thing, like, this is what we do here. That kind of showing rather than telling is almost. That modeling is almost more important. What do you think, Jules?

[Julie Foudy]

Well, sadly, they. They don't have to do that anymore. On the national team. When I see them, I'm like, wait, why do we have more staff than players right now? I actually miss that because I do think there's a sense of honor when your captain, Carla Overbeck, is the first one to be moving goals and picking up cones and doing all those things now, like, the players don't have to do any of that stuff. And I actually think that's a miss. I would say, no, let them do some of this stuff. Obviously, you don't want them carrying 7,000 equipment bags like we used to back in the day, but, like, taking ownership of the labor and the work. I remember young kids would come on the team and we'd be like, what are you doing? Like, you see we're doing shit like, let's go get dirty. Like, let's carry the. Carry the water. Go grab the soccer balls. This is what we do. And I think that's an important in any company. Like, putting the work in. Like, you're not. You're not above. That is. Is a really cool thing. You know who's amazing Adam with this is Billie Jean King. I wish she was on this conversation because she was so badly wanted to chat with you because she loves the mental side of stuff. But she is the first one when she goes, and this is, I think, so important to culture. And I'm interested to hear your take on this. When you go to a dinner with Billy or you're in an event with Billy, Billie goes out of her way. The Kinger goes out of her way to thank the people that are behind the scenes. So the waiter, the busboy, the cook in the kitchen. She'll go back into the kitchen during the Women's Sports foundation gala and thank all the team for what they've served us that night. I mean that to me, when I see that, I, like, almost get teary. Servant leadership. To me, that's a beautiful thing.

[Adam Grant]

That actually reminds me of a study that Sean Martin published not too long ago where he showed that if you look at the stories people tell to newcomers, there are two stories that really matter. One is about senior people violating values. So the opposite of what Billy does.

[Julie Foudy]

Right.

[Adam Grant]

And the other is about junior people upholding values, which says, hey, even when the boss or the leader isn't here, this. This is something we actually care about and hold dear. And so I guess it makes me wonder, is there. You know, is there an example or is there an opportunity for not just Billy, but also the lowest person on the totem pole to go and take the same time to thank staff. I think that in some ways might be just as powerful or more powerful for introducing people to the culture because it sends this message, hey, this is something that we expect everybody to do. And Julie, when you were talking, I started thinking about there's a bit of a fine line between nothing is beneath us and we're going to hazer our brand new people.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And I think the difference lies in making sure that the senior people are doing it too, which clearly you did. So I'm good with your version.

[Julie Foudy]

Okay, good.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, it makes me think of the reality, you know, when we're talking about culture, what we're really saying, at least the way that Julie and I are thinking about it, is like the vibe. Not to bring in the name of your new book, but like what. What we are going to feel and be and express. And like all parties that enter into a room that's going to make up this team or this business or this family, we all are contributors. Or we are also the opposite. We can. We can inhibit culture from forming. We can be blockers of culture. And I'm sure you have some scientific name for it. Do you have an idea of, is it possible to build really big successful teams, cultures, families? If there are. Is there like a statistic around, like, positive versus negative people? Like, do you have any numbers around that? Because I do understand that there's. It's not going to always be perfect, but it's still possible because I've been on teams where there have been tough teammates, there have been hard people that I've had to work with through my time, but we were still able to win championships. Like, how is that. How is that possible?

[Adam Grant]

Oh, this is so fun. Yeah. There is research on this. So I stumbled across some evidence when I was. When I was studying the differences between givers and takers, which, you know, I always thought of that as. Okay, I want to. I want to get as many givers on my team as I can. People who are constantly asking, what can I do for you? Because those are the people who make a team more than the sum of its parts. And yet the data proved me wrong. It turned out, it's nice to have the right people on your bus, but it is critical to keep the wrong people off your bus. And, Abby, you asked me to quantify this. My best estimate from the studies I've read suggests that the negative impact of a taker on a culture is somewhere between two and three times greater than the positive impact of a giver on a culture.

[Abby Wambach]

Whoa.

[Adam Grant]

So bad is Stronger than good.

[Abby Wambach]

Okay. Bad is stronger than good.

[Julie Foudy]

I almost thought you were gonna say that. You do need a couple takers to balance it. But no, you're saying takers suck the very oxygen out of it. So the fact that Abby was successful when she did have some takers, I mean, every team has some takers. Not just your team, but is. Is pretty remarkable.

[Adam Grant]

It. Yeah, it is. You know, I think. Well, this, this actually makes me think about a couple of things. The first thing that's, that's really striking here is a lot of people do assume that you need a mix of givers and takers because the givers are going to be doing a lot of the collaboration and team oriented behavior. And we think, well, we need some takers to be, you know, kind of laser focused on the goal. The problem is takers are laser focused on their own goals. Right. Not our goals.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Adam Grant]

And so if there's a conflict between scoring a goal, which will make them look good and trying to think about, or let's frame this a little differently. If there's a conflict between taking a shot, which kind of might lead to individual glory, and passing the ball, which might elevate the team, takers are going to hog the ball.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And so what I've come to realize is we don't actually need any takers on the team. We want to keep them off. What we want is a third group of people that kind of hover in the middle between givers and takers, which I've, I've called matchers, who are basically people who are saying, I'll do something for you if you do something for me. And they really care about fairness and justice and reciprocity. And so if you, if you're worried that your team of, of all givers is going to be too selfless or to kumbaya, a couple of matchers will be generous with the giver, but they will be tough on takers and hold them accountable for, for contributing to the team.

[Abby Wambach]

That is really interesting. I had a couple takers on the team, but they were the best in the world at what they were doing. So I was like, it's fine. You just keep doing your taking because it's actually benefiting the team that you're. That, that we're hoping to, to keep scoring goals and winning games and championship.

[Adam Grant]

This is, I think this is a unique challenge in sports though, right? Because the difference between the very best players and there are only a handful of them and everybody else is so much greater than we See in workplaces typically, or you know, hopefully in families for that matter. And so you, you do end up having a higher tolerance for the very, very best players being a little bit selfish. But even there it can be problematic. And you know, unfortunately again, the best data I've seen on this are from men's sports, the NBA. But there's a, there's an amazing study of takers in basketball. So the study is in the actual study looks at narcissism and narcissism is coded by scoring. Players tweets over the course of a season and they just, they just smack you in the face. Like one of the, one of the highest. One of the most narcissistic tweets was a player posting a shirtless selfie. And the caption said something like, when I look in the mirror, what I see staring back at me is greatness.

[Abby Wambach]

In professional sports, though I do think that there is. And when you're playing with like high functioning people, there is got to be a relationship with our ego. And, and a little bit of like, I think that, that and Julie, I know you might disagree with me here in the, in the modern day world, there is kind of a culture in professional sports where me, myself and I kind of is seen in the world as the way to approach things. Right. And so I can understand why some people can fall a little victim to it. I mean, I was a team first person, but I also was kind of, I also had a self absorption about me because that is in some ways what professional sport. Because it's like I'm eating this morsel so that I can play really well and I'm running this sprint so that I can do well for my team. Like there is a, there is a part of it all that is a little narcissistic and self absorbed. So I understand.

[Adam Grant]

I get it too. I think though that you used a key phrase which is I'm doing this for the team.

[Abby Wambach]

Right.

[Adam Grant]

And we can all think of athletes who, you know, are just arrogant and self absorbed only for their, their own benefit. And in the, in this particular study, this is Emily Grijalva and colleagues. What they, what they do is, you know, they, they're able to compare like who are the, you know, the most narcissistic, self absorbed, huge ego players. And then, you know, lots of players are in the middle or toward the bottom of that spectrum and then they track for a whole season. What that does in terms of predicting team performance. And what you see is that the more narcissistic players you have on the team, the less likely the team is to improve over the course of the season. So teams with, you know, with sort of. With oversized egos, um, they kind of get stuck. They don't. They don't figure out how to coordinate. They don't collaborate well. They have fewer. Fewer assists, for example. And that is especially true if the point guard is a narcissist.

[Abby Wambach]

Oh, sheesh.

[Adam Grant]

Which, you know, puts them in the position to. To be the dominant ball hog. I. I imagine you've seen similar dynamics in soccer.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah. Adam, have you seen the study around in the NBA around touching and.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Abby Wambach]

And the amount.

[Adam Grant]

Michael Krass.

[Abby Wambach]

Yes. Can you tell us a little about that study?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, this is. I mean, this is another study that. This one blew my mind, because the goal of the study is to predict team success in the NBA from just watching one game at the beginning of the season. So we want to know how you're going to do October through April. We're going to watch every team play just once. October, November, and then we're going to forecast what's going to happen for, you know, 80 games. And it turned out that the. The teams that had the best trajectories were the ones where players physically touched each other more. But we have to be clear. It's a particular kind of touch. It's celebratory touch.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

It's a high five. It's a back slap. It's a bear hug. And I think, you know, I think it would be insane to argue that those touches actually cause teams to perform better. I think they're a signal of the culture that's been built.

[Julie Foudy]

Exactly.

[Adam Grant]

I think in teams where. Where the ethos is about giving, we are rooting for each other's success, and we show it in those small moments and in teams where. Where everybody is kind of in taker mode and it's all about me. You're not that excited when your. Your teammate makes a free throw or, you know, ends up slamming a dunk.

[Julie Foudy]

It reveals where the team is at with their relationships. To me, and it takes me to a topic I really want to touch on with you, because I'm so rabid about it is just. I feel so strongly that women were built to lead because of the things we were just talking about. I don't. There are women who are takers, of course. Right. But I think. And maybe I'm generalizing, and I am definitely stereotyping, but in general, I feel like women are more collaborative. They're more willing to unify teams they're more willing to empathize with people and actually have a plan. I mean, imagine that, like think through things and not in a narcissistic way. And so what do you see? You have two kids, you work with a lot of women led. Two daughters, I should say three kids, two daughters, you work with a lot of women led organizations. How different is a team when it's shaped by a female leader?

[Adam Grant]

There's a lot of evidence to back up what you just said. I think some of the most striking evidence is there were. Let's see, there were two papers in the early days of COVID showing that if countries had a female head of state or if states had a female governor, fatality rates were lower in the first couple months of the pandemic. And the key mechanism. Excuse me, the key mechanism there seems to be that women in leadership tended to show more concern for people. And so when they explained some, what some people thought were extreme measures like a lockdown or masking or social distancing, they did it in ways that said, hey, we're trying to protect your safety and we want to make sure that you're not vulnerable to a deadly disease. Whereas men were more likely to say, this is my order, follow it. Which generally led to less compliance. There are many, many, many studies that I think speak to this pattern around women tending to be more empathetic, more collaborative. There's a big nature nurture debate about how much of that is, you know, biological versus social roles. I'm a little hesitant to make this argument, though, Julie. Having said all that, what bothers me about it a little bit is that it starts to. It starts to play into gender stereotypes that will. We. We only want women in leadership because women are collaborative. No, I want women in leadership also because they're really smart, because they're goal oriented, because they're dependable, because they're reliable. And I think after a lot of years of saying, yeah, leadership requires more empathy and women happen to be better at that on average than men, I've realized, you know what, that. That seems like a limiting argument. I don't want to constrain women to have to play out their gender roles. What I want to do is say leadership requires a lot of strengths, and there is no gender that has a monopoly on those strengths. And we ought to be looking at people for the values and skills they bring to the table, not for the demographic group that they happen to belong to.

[Abby Wambach]

I love that. Yeah, I. I hear that so much, and I feel like that's really generous, Adam. And I will just say. I will just say that it is pretty evident right now around what is happening in our world that we probably could use a little bit of collaborative feminine energy. Let's take gender out of it. We need a little bit of feminine energy in some of these rooms that are thinking about more than just money, more than just power. Right. And I think that. That you're right. Like, we don't want to stereotype in the way that we set up our leadership ethos and. And. And characteristics, but I do think that. I do think that women could make things a little bit better than they are now. That's what I think.

[Adam Grant]

Hard to argue with that one. And it will not surprise you at all there. There's some good evidence that when women are at the table, peace agreements are more likely, and they are also significantly more likely to last over a decade.

[Julie Foudy]

Yeah, I. I hear what you're saying, though, because there is clearly already that double standard that women live with on a daily basis. Right. You're often told, like, be a good teammate, because that's. That's what we are. We're good teammates. We're collaborative. You know, do not be too much. Right. Too noisy, too loud. Win. But be nice about it. Right. Don't celebrate over. Celebrate, like, all those things that, you know, no one wants an asshole, of course. But damn, there's got to be a balance there, to your point. And, like, let's not limit us by just throwing us into those categories. I do like that.

[Adam Grant]

That's really well put. That's what I should have said. Yes. Much more concise, Julie.

[Julie Foudy]

No, I'm gonna quit doing everything Adam just said. It was really well put. I'm done. Drop the mic, Adam. We have a couple questions from the party people, our listeners. Lily from Dallas, who got her degree in psychology and is a huge fan of the Adam Grant, of course, said she had two questions. I said, I'll give you both, Lily, because I like. Lily, before you became an organizational psychologist, you were a junior Olympic diver and a magician if you had to pick which of your former selves gave you the most insight into how the human mind actually worked.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, wow. Thanks, Lily. Honored.

[Julie Foudy]

Good one. Right?

[Adam Grant]

Not even a. This is not even a question. Diving. Yeah, diving. Diving taught me more about psychology than possibly everything I did otherwise for my first two decades combined. And I think it was. I mean, it was powerful in a couple ways. One was I had to face a lot of fears. I was afraid of heights. I was afraid of getting lost. I Was afraid of belly smacking and landing flat on my back. And the fear of heights, the fear of uncertainty, the fear of pain, having to confront that and conquer it every day. It taught me a lot about motivation. And then as I moved from diving to coaching, having to then figure out how to motivate divers to do the same things that I was afraid of. That was huge for relationships. I also, my coach told me recently, he said, you know, Adam, it didn't seem to bother you, but when you arrived as a freshman on my team in high school, you only had one friend. I don't know. I don't know what stranger that I only had one friend or that I was unfazed by it, but I think I had two, maybe three. But I was a really nerdy, shy, socially awkward kid. And diving helped me to. It really helped me overcome some of that. Because you spend 95% of practice just standing in line waiting for your turn, and that forced a lot of socializing. And I made a bunch of new friends. And I also, I guess I spent a lot of time observing people and trying to figure out what was it about some divers who were waiting in line that made people want to interact with them. And mostly what I saw was people gravitated toward givers. They loved being around teammates who were helpful to them. And I wanted to be more like that.

[Julie Foudy]

Mm, that's good. That's really okay. This is another. This is another really good one from Lily. And this is one that I feel inherently. Athletes are often taught to trust their instincts and not overthink. But your work emphasizes rethinking and questioning assumptions. How do you balance gut instinct with the willingness to rethink?

[Adam Grant]

Oh, that's such a good question. This is a hard question, I think, in sports especially, but this is. This is true in other parts of life too. I think the key is to be selective about what you take off of autopilot. So I'm sure both of you can relate to this. There's a. There's a classic study of tennis players where if you. And you can see this with golfers too, actually, if you ask them to describe their technique, they get worse because they've taken a skill that they did automatically and now they're analyzing it and they're disrupting the fluid, well learned process and starting to notice things that distract them. And so I obviously don't want to apply that to every single thing that you do. But every once in a while, you have to take a step backward in order to take two steps forward. But I'd love to hear what both of you think about that.

[Julie Foudy]

Well, I was. I was definitely a gut gal. I was not like, I'm going to go break down film and analyze. And I think everyone's wired differently. Like, if I got too analytical, people would literally be like, what's wrong with you today? I was like, I don't know. So I had a hard time. Although I think all the time, like, if I had gone back to your point and just done more work around my game, I would have been a much better player. I do think that. But I also realized it sucked the joy out of it for me. I didn't want to do that. And I wanted to be joyful when I played, and I felt like that was helpful. So I resisted. And I wonder. I do wonder, like, had I spent a little more time diving into the nuances of the game, I would have been better.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, I think I learned from a coach. It was my very first year as a professional playing for the Washington Spirit, Clyde Watson, he gave me this psychological trick. And what ended up happening is I ended up using it every single day of my soccer career, which is so weird. And I'm like, just thinking of this right now. But what he did in the first couple of weeks of training, he would notice I would go into a game, and there would be too much in my mind because I've just now stepped into a different level. I'm getting inundated with more information. New plays, new set plays, new words, new phrases. I was overloaded. And so he just said, abby, what I want you to do for this practice, I want you to think about only working on two things. I want you to work on your first touch. So, like, that's it. Just be thinking about your first touch. And I want you to work on something weird, right? Like, so something practical and then something impractical. And so then that's gave me something to very much be boundaried in my approach to every training session or every game. And it's something that I actually did throughout my whole career. Especially, like, as. As more veteran I got, the more confident I got. And so I didn't necessarily have to always go to this. So when I would have a bat, when I was performing poorly, I'd say, okay, focus on your first touch. And then let's see if I can bend a ball around a defender and score a goal in a weird, cool way. So there were these things that I would put into my. So analyzing was an important thing for me. But, Jules, like, you If I got too heady, I would actually get, I would get jumbled and then nothing would end up happening. So then I'd have to break it down and focus on very specific things.

[Adam Grant]

That makes so much sense to me. You can, you can only improve one thing at a time because you can only focus on one thing at a time.

[Abby Wambach]

That's right.

[Adam Grant]

And so I think having the one note that you know, okay, I've got to, I've got to change this and I've got to now do it so often that I can do it without thinking about it. And once I've automated it now, I can move on to work on the next thing. And that I think that that process of going from, okay, I've got to learn how to do this differently or rethink the habits that I have ingrained to okay, now I've got it. It can be really uncomfortable. My coach, Eric Best used to always say to me in diving, Adam, make it feel wrong. The only way to get it right is to make it feel wrong. Because otherwise when I give you a suggestion, you overreact and then you under correct. Which is something we all do to feedback like, no, no, I can't do it that way because it's like I'm going to, I'm going to feel off and then I make a tiny little change and nothing gets better. Make it feel wrong. Over. Correct the behavior and then you've covered the whole range. You can find the sweet spot in

[Julie Foudy]

the middle and party people if you have. If you don't follow Adam on Instagram, you should. The last thing I want to say to you, because we talk about this all the time on your Instagram feed. You posted earlier in January a post that said early specialization is overrated. Generalists excel over time, Data on over 34,000 stars in sports, music, science and chess. Focusing on a single field predicts a faster rise. But cross training foreshadows a higher peak. The most successful adults start off as well rounded kids. We talk about that all the time in sports in terms of how early these kids are starting to specialize in their sports and they're getting injured or burnout and they're quitting and the joy is sucked out of it because of that. We got a ton of responses recently on Instagram when we did episode on this about how difficult it is to not specialize because the system funnels you that way. Like you can't play more than one sport because it's not actually physically possible. This happened to my kid when she Got to high school too. So I'm just wondering, for someone who is in a system that doesn't allow you to do the very thing we know we should be doing, but it's really hard, what advice do you give to parents in that moment?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, this, this is also hard. Well, first of all, I want to qualify that and say you can, you can be a multi sport kid if you're not in America or China.

[Julie Foudy]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

If you go to Norway, you're going to be playing a lot of sports until you're at least 13.

[Julie Foudy]

Yep.

[Adam Grant]

So, yeah, I think, I think there, there are definitely places that make this more doable. But I think that, you know, it's hard to get more hours in the day. I think that most parents already feel overextended. You know, Allison and I have felt it a lot just trying to get all three of our kids to all their activities, and that's if they only have one activity. Um, I think that one, maybe one good. Let me say this differently. One piece of good news on this is that you don't have to be doing multiple sports at the same time. So I think seasonality is probably your best friend here.

[Julie Foudy]

Right.

[Adam Grant]

I would say, okay, like if you're playing soccer in the fall, pick another sport for the winter, pick a different one for the spring, and then pick back up soccer in the summer. And I think if you do that for a few cycles, you get some of the cross training benefits and then at some point it becomes tempting to specialize. What I would resist is the pressure to say, you know what? I'm not going to do the other sports that school is offering because I've been told I need to go all in at age 10 in order to be professional. That's just ridiculous.

[Julie Foudy]

Yeah, okay, great advice.

[Abby Wambach]

We didn't. Julie and I didn't.

[Julie Foudy]

No, none of us did.

[Abby Wambach]

We were multi sport athletes.

[Julie Foudy]

There's study upon study that shows that data too, of all the successful Olympians who were all multi sport athletes. It just breaks my heart when I see it now.

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah, but just think about it from the kids perspective. A kid doesn't want to do the same thing every, every day. They want to do many things. They want to learn. They want and like that teaches their brain to be neuroplastic to learning new things and to be excited about learning new things. It's frustrating, but you're stuck in a system because when you, when your kid really is decent soccer player, the ECNL system is like, you got to play this 11 months a year and it's, like, really hard to break free from it and to find the coaches that are like, yeah, you can also play another sport. It's difficult.

[Adam Grant]

It is hard. I think, you know, one of. One of the things I was always afraid of as a diver was taking time off because I. I felt like, you know, maybe I would start to regress a little bit or I would stagnate or plateau while other people were getting better. And Eric practically beat that out of me. He said, look, you know, all those bad habits that are preventing you from reaching your goals, you take a month off, and it's actually easier then to correct some of those issues because you haven't been practicing them wrong every day for months and months at a time. And I do think. I think we should pay more attention to the value of that kind of reset, that when you get a little bit of distance from your sport or your activity, you do come in with, you know, with less baggage.

[Julie Foudy]

Adam, you're a rock star.

[Adam Grant]

I can't sing or dance, but thank you for that label that I don't deserve.

[Julie Foudy]

All right, Adam, we appreciate you.

[Abby Wambach]

Sounds good. That sounds exciting. Good job.

[Adam Grant]

Thank you. I. I will. I think I will have copies come September, so stay tuned.

[Julie Foudy]

I don't know how you keep churning them out. That's impressive. It's a lot of work.

[Adam Grant]

I don't have a real job.

[Julie Foudy]

Yes, you do.

[Abby Wambach]

I really think he's great, and I think that his approach to social interactions and organizing is so interesting. Like, I don't know about you, Jules, but, like, I think a lot about how the hell our national team has been so successful for so many generations. Decades.

[Julie Foudy]

Emma Hayes with the team. When she came over, she was like. When she first was with the team, she said, oh, my gosh, you guys bleed red, white, and blue. Like the crest, the U.S. soccer crest. She goes, I am going to honor that thing, you know, every single day I'm with this team because it matters so much to you all, like, from generation to generation. And I thought how cool that she can see that in her first week with the team. And she is a wise soul, no question. But, like, it's that apparent, like, how much we cared about playing for our country and that crest. So I am proud. I'm proud of our culture that has continued totally.

[Abby Wambach]

And it's cool to see it change a little, but also stay the same. I don't know if I'm even saying that right. If, like, you would agree, like, there's so many pieces to the puzzle that none of us had experience with. Right. Like having more staff than players. Like, that wasn't a thing when I was playing. But you know, like, there's some, there's some privileges that they get that we didn't get that could change that, that, that die hard bleeding, the red, white and blue kind of vibe, but it doesn't. So I don't know, it's like, it's really interesting and I can understand why so many of us older players are like, back in the day I had to walk uphill both ways to go to school in the snow and really,

[Julie Foudy]

I actually had to clean my boots. Do you know what that's like?

[Abby Wambach]

Yeah.

[Julie Foudy]

I didn't have a protein shake waiting for me on the sideline as I finished practice.

[Abby Wambach]

It's the desire to have suffered and to want to the current generation to equally suffer. And that's just not progress. Right. Progress is like letting them achieve and be the best that they can possibly be with less suffering than we had. So, yeah, thanks to Adam for.

[Julie Foudy]

I do want him to suffer just a little. I mean, a little suffering is not bad.

[Abby Wambach]

Well, I do think that there's a lot of what they do, regardless of whether we see it or not, that that requires suffering.

[Julie Foudy]

Oh, of course. Okay, party people, don't forget to subscribe to the welcome to the party YouTube channel. Click that little bell icon so you get new updates when they come live.

[Abby Wambach]

That would be fun. Just take one second. We would appreciate it to rate, leave a comment and subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And also be sure to follow us on Instagram or YouTube and wherever you get your socials. Honestly at welcome to the Party show where Julie, Billy and I will bring the party straight to your feed and you can also email us at party people questionsmail.com Shout out to Kate Diaz for our theme music. Jules, you want to USA USA

[Julie Foudy]

3 on 3 1, 2, 3. USA USA

[Abby Wambach]

welcome to the Party is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. Initial Digital is our production process partner and you can also watch our full conversations on the welcome to the party YouTube channel and follow us at welcome to the Party show on Instagram and TikTok. Thanks for listening.