A (5:41)

I have a quick question for you.

B (5:42)

Yes.

A (5:43)

When you stopped the drinking and the smoking, did you have to eliminate some of the friends that were in your life as well?

B (5:49)

Yeah, that's a great question. I did, and that was really hard. I feel like a lot of friendship breakups came from that. So specifically, there was a group of girls that I had met from Bumble BFF that I'd gotten really close to, and we had gone through, like, a lot of hard things together, too. Like, one of the girl's husbands passed away, and it was like, a really, like, deep, traumatic thing. But I realized at the time that, you know, we were still really bonding over, like, drugs, alcohol, and it just was such a tug on my heart. And I tried to navigate that as delicately as possible, especially with something, like, so traumatic happening very recently in the group. And everyone was really kind about it, and they understood and they understood that the alcohol and the drugs, they were, like, really wearing on me. So cut those friendships off. I also ended up stepping away from the friendship. The girl that I knew in Austin that I had basically moved there with ended up stepping away from that friendship as well, which, no hard feelings. Everything was still good there, but it was just very much, yeah, not anymore. Not anymore. And that's okay, too. And I tell people it's okay to have friendship breakups because like, we grow up and we change and that's just a part of life. So when I got sober, this was also a part of the like, big sober movement, which I feel has become very popular and like social media just in life, like people are realizing the negative impacts of alcohol and more alcohol alternatives were coming onto the market. So like non alcoholic beers, non alcoholic wines, like, different type of mood booster, energy drinks type things. And I was really into this. Like, I was so into making different mocktails. Like every time I had people over I was like, I want to make us like a specialty mocktail. And I wasn't. I look back and I don't think I was as like comfortable in my sobriety as I thought I was because there was still something in me that was like looking for that thing to fill the void that alcohol was, which I now know is my relationship with the Lord. But like, I was still trying to fill it with other things too. So during this like, sober movement, I was a really big fan of the Skinny Confidentials podcast. I don't know if you've heard of them before, but basically it's like an extremely like, health and wellness focused podcast with like more of like a high end, like wellness audience base. And the two hosts of the podcast were taking a hiatus from alcohol and they started doing ads for a specific product called I'm gonna Rewind. The two hosts of the podcast were taking a hiatus from alcohol and they started marketing and doing ads for like different alcohol alternatives. And one product in particular was targeted towards sober people or just people that wanted to like take a break from alcohol, were sober curious. That was like a really popular term that I think too was, was sober curiosity. And this product was a small 2 ounce blue bottle called Feel Free by the company Botanic Tonics. And it looked really similar to a five hour energy, so looked like a like a little wellness shot. The branding was like really high end. So think like high end wellness shot, like social tonic type of thing. Things that I' lots of times in the past, like I. I'm really big on like Matcha and Adaptogens and like all the health focused things. This shot was supposed to be like a mood booster, mood enhancer, energy booster that helped you be more social and feel relaxed. And I was so excited about this because the hosts were like really raving about it and I had bought multiple products from them that were wonderful. I still have like the Skinny Confidential ice roller. And for the record, like, I don't blame the podcast host or anybody that like promoted this product. Because back then I don't think anybody knew what was going to come of this. So like, for the record, I don't, you know, blame them for that. But if you look on the products website, it's really he heavily marketed as a kava product. And I know a lot of people, sober people have taken kava. It's something that just makes you feel sleepy, relaxed, your mouth will feel kind of numb if you take it. And there's like, you know, typically no age requirement or anything to buy kava. It's just like a non mind altering type of thing. I've taken it before, never had any sort of addictive tendencies towards it. But for this product specifically, feel free, there was no age requirement at the time. There wasn't a serving size on the bottle. Now there's a half a bottle is a serving size and they make that pretty clear on the bottle now. But back then that was not the case. The two primary ingredients in this product are kava and kratom. And I had taken, like I said, kava by itself before. Never experienced anything mind altering and I just felt a little sleepy. I had never taken kratom before, but I had heard about it from a few people in the past, maybe like a year before that. It was something that was compared to matcha or coffee like in the coffee family. And no alarm bells going off at this time. I'm like, okay, it's natural. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, you always hear all natural, this is totally fine. And I was like, this, this sounds like something I would honestly love. And again, I think I was really looking for something to fill that void that alcohol was filling. So I went to a CBD store and I'd use the feel free store locator. And I was like, where do I need to go to buy this shot? Went to a CBD store in Austin. And I remember the day really specifically because I had a work retreat the next day and all my co workers drank and I was like, I don't want to be the only one without anything. So I'm going to buy a little substitute, put it in like some coconut water and it'll probably be great. So I went to the CBD store and I remember asking the clerk about the shot and he was like, well, it tastes really bad and kava's known for being really bitter and like I said, making your mouth feel numb. And he, yeah, mentioned it was a kava drink. And I personally don't really care about the taste of things if it makes me feel good. Or if it's like a wellness shot, like a turmeric ginger shot. People hate those sometimes. I'm like, no, I'll take it. I want all the health benefits of it. And I took this shot when I got home, or half the shot. And I remember just feeling so sick and dizzy. I felt awful. I was, like, seeing double. And I was so confused because I was like, this could not be the product that the host of, like, my favorite podcast were raving about. Like, this cannot be the same thing. And I just laid down and went to sleep and I was so confused. And.

A (11:54)

And that was only from half.

B (11:55)

Yeah, that was only from half. And I was like, what would happen if you even took the whole thing?

A (11:58)

Right?

B (11:58)

This is crazy. And I. I don't remember if I ever took the second half. I think I might have thrown it away. But I. After that, I just did not think about the drink for months. I was like, this is probably not my thing, but still, I was hearing people, like, rave about this drink. And I remember even Joe Rogan took it on his podcast and he was talking about the euphoric effects, and I was like, what is wrong with me? Did I get one from, like, a bad batch of products and maybe I need to try this again? So that's what I did. And around fall of 2022, I ended up purchasing another Feel Free because I had convinced myself that my first one was just maybe a fluke. It, you know, was maybe not, you know, as, like, produced as well as the others or something like that. And this time I did drink half a shot. I don't remember the, like, specific day, but I do remember that I loved the way it made me feel. I had energy, I had the euphoria. I was super happy and wanted to be productive. I felt like it was a godsend, especially for somebody who was newly sober and could drink this thing at the bar with friends if I was out. And, like, I was still going to the bars at that point because some of my friends did drink. And, like, we like to go dancing. And I thought this was something that was an amazing product for sober people. But now that I look back and I think. I think even deep down, I did know that a product like that was too good to be true and had to have a dark side. Like, something that made you feel that good could not have been legal. So around this time frame, which would be fall of 2022 to summer of 2023, a full year, I was drinking the Feel Free shots really responsibly at First I was only drinking maybe one on the weekend. On special occasions, I had one for like my birthday, I think that year, like every other weekend. It was never more than one bottle per sitting, which is the serving size now is one bottle per day. And I actually ended up running a half marathon in February of 2023. And I would use Feel Free as my recovery drink for my long runs. It was, it still is really marketed towards the fitness community. People will put it in their drinks as like a pre workout or post workout recovery.

A (14:08)

So how long do the effects last?

B (14:11)

About when you're first taking it, your tolerance is really low. Probably about two hours.

A (14:16)

Okay.

B (14:16)

Yeah. But the more you take, the effects start to wear off more and more and the tolerance builds up. Yeah.

A (14:23)

Mm.

B (14:24)

Yeah. So in summer of 2023, when I was working a fully remote job, I just gotten this job cause I was laid off from my last job that I really love. But just like tech industry was going through a lot of layoffs, I was working a fully remote job for a marketing agency that became very toxic very quickly. And what I mean by that is that there was no work life balance. I felt anxious all the time. I was depressed. I started at this point taking at least one feel free tonic a day after work to cope with the feelings. And again, it was the feelings of like relaxation, euphoria. I felt like I could actually deal with my stress and like cope with the depression I was falling into better. And I was like, again, this feels like a godsend. It feels like something that is really helping me. It's helping me cope with my job. In reality, I probably just should have left that job. But you know, the, the job market's hard and it's scary and it's not as easy to just leave your job, you know, because you're having a hard time with it. But I don't remember the first time I ever took a Feel Free during the workday. But that quickly became a thing. Um, I want to say it was around September, October 2023 timeframe, and I noticed that I enjoyed my work a lot more when I took one. And it was way easier to have conversations with my boss that were normally really tough to have. Like, I remember I would take them before client calls and I'd be like, all right, this is gonna get me on my game. I'm gonna feel good, be in a good mood. And I honestly like, like, excelled at my job taking them. I ended up getting a promotion. And I was like, these are all good things, right? And yeah, what What I did notice, though, at that time is that the. The high from them, the euphoric feeling, go, that would last like, maybe a couple of hours, started lasting only 30 minutes or so. Which if I, like, sometimes I would start my day off with a shot, and that would only last 30 minutes. I would be like, okay, I probably need to take another, because now I'm getting really crabby and irritable. And yeah, the euphoria was good, but the comedown was really tough. It's like, typically what happens with opiates is that exact feeling. And at that time, no one knew that my usage of them was kind of ramping up. So people always ask me, like, do people know that you were starting to use them? And people kind of knew, but they just thought it was another wellness shot. Like, I remember I went out with my friends one night and I brought one with me, and I told them, like, this is. Is a little wellness tonic. We all brought a bunch of mocktails. And one of my friends took a sip and no one else took it. Cause they were like, it seems kind of nasty. And I'm so glad they didn't, because they could have ended up like I did. But. But yeah, so it. People just kind of thought it was a little wellness shot. No alarms raised. I. If I was more anxious or crabby, then my family or friends just assumed it was because of my job. And I was blaming my job a lot on the, like, the addiction symptoms. And which that was true too. Like, I still was really grumpy and tired and depressed because of my job. And my family of friends would see, like, maybe one or two in my refrigerator, but, like, genuinely thought it was a harmless wellness supplement. So nothing crazy. And I did start to wonder if I had a problem with them because I was taking them every day and I wouldn't go into physical withdrawal yet. But like I said, if I didn't have one, I was just really, really grumpy. And I remember Googling them. And this was probably around, like, the fall 2023 time frame. And there were a lot of Reddit posts that came up for people that have been severely addicted to them. And they drained their entire savings. They were hospitalized. They basically lost everything. There was a guy who was suing them because he was a former alcoholic, and he ended up relapsing on alcohol because he was taking, like, 12 to 15 bottles of feel Free a day. And he just didn't know to do but, like, relapse on alcohol because the withdrawals from Feel Free were so Bad. So he was suing them. And I had really lied to myself and said I was not an addict and that I was not going to be that person. I was really in denial, though, because that's what, like, addicts, we tell ourselves. Like, this is. It's, I'm not going to be that person. Like, I'm not going to, you know, end up draining my whole savings. Like, that's crazy. I'd never been physically dependent on something in my life. Like, I'd struggled with alcohol and marijuana use, but it was nothing like that. And my spending on them was not out of control at this point. I was, I was making a pretty decent salary at my job and I wasn't concerned financially yet. So they cost about seven to twelve dollars a bottle, which is a lot. Like, especially with how many bottles people like myself ended up using per day. But you kind of start, you stop thinking about the price of them and you're like, I just need to get my fix. And that's when you know things are not getting good. So my usage continues to ramp up around fall of 2023. And on October 19th of 2023 is the day that ended up meeting my husband for the very first time. My best friend actually ended up setting us up. And it was a very instant connection. We were officially in a relationship by mid November, so dated for like a month, boyfriend and girlfriend in November. And we, we very much knew we wanted to marry each other. It was a very instant connection. Very sweet. And we had planned drive with me to Alabama to meet my family for Christmas that year, which we were super excited about. And I was just really happy for him to come with me. But Kratom and feel free shots are not legal in Alabama, so they don't sell them there. And this is a big problem because I, I take feel free every day at this point. So I'm gonna be in Alabama for two weeks. So I was mentally trying to do the math of how many bottles do I take with me. And I packed about 10 bottles of feel free to take with me, thinking that it would last for the full two weeks. And I thought this was a great chance too, to not fully depend on them. Like, I mean, 10 bottles is still a lot, but you're thinking like 14 days. I'm gonna have to stretch these 10 bottles. Let's like, kind of take a little bit of a tolerance break. Like maybe only drink them, you know, on like, special occasions, like Christmas day or like something. And I ended up drinking all of those bottles within two to Three days. And I was like, shoop, I'm kind of screwed. I guess I'm just gonna be like quitting cold turkey for this time period. And I also, I continue to think that it was a good opportunity for me to be able to take like a little bit of a tolerance break. And yeah, I was, was taking them in secret when I was taking them during Christmas break before I ran out. So like, my, my husband and I were driving to Alabama. I had them in our trunk and they were like open. Like there was a case of them just open where he could see them. But I just, he probably just thought they were wellness shots. I remember taking some in the bathroom when we made like pit stops because I was like embarrassed about. But at the same time I was fine with him like seeing the bottles. But I didn't want it to. I didn't want anyone to even kind of think I had a problem or they were like problematic in any way. So I was still sneaking around, taking them a lot. And I remember when I got to Alabama, my husband and I stayed in my grandma's house and I ended up losing my, my grandma's key to her front door that I had. And my mom's kind of freaking out. We're all freaking out and trying to find this key. And my mom just like, we have a close relationship. So she just like goes in my bag and starts like emptying stuff out. And I'm like panicking because I have like, I think I had like three empty feel free bottles in there and she just takes them out. And I don't think she thought anything of it because she had seen those bottles before. She had even taken some with me as like an alcohol alternative because we stopped drinking together at the same time. And she like, it was not problematic with her, so she was like, okay, whatever. And I was just so scared that someone was going to call me out on my problem. So ended up going through those, all of those bottles within two to three days. And my husband had to fly, or he's my boyfriend, to fly back to California to be with his families after being with us for a few days. And that is like when I ran out of bottles, he like didn't see me taking them. We were very much in like the honeymoon phase of our relationship. Always wanting to be around each other and just super excited to spend time together. But the combination of him having to go back to be with his family and me running out of bottles was like catastrophic in my mind. I, like, emotionally was not okay because I'm also cutting out my usage. My brain chemistry is so out of whack and my dopamine just like is depleted and goes down. So I'm an emotional wreck. Brain is out of whack. My husband's leaving. I literally cried for an entire day after he left. And I was like, I am so upset about him leaving. And like, didn't put two, two together about the fact that I was going into mental withdrawals at that time. So the rest of the trip in Alabama without taking feel Free, I did not have any physical withdrawals, but the emotional withdrawals, really rough. Like they did get better after a few days, but were still pretty tough. And I was just looking forward to getting back to Texas and being able to take feel free again. And my mom, she drove back to Austin with me right before New Year's. And the very first stop we made when we got to Texas was to go to a gas station and get a couple of feel free tonics. I would take them with clean energy drinks and like mix the two. And that just gave me like a really boosted euphoric feeling. Yeah. And I, I think that was the beginning of the addiction starting to get really, really bad because I had quit for that period of time and it was almost like a relapse. It's like when you relapse, it's like 10 times worse than the usage ever was and it just ramps up entirely. Yeah. At that point the addiction was getting worse. And fast forward to January of 2024. I was at the same job, the same toxic job, and the work culture just continued to get worse. I was also in a lot of isolation working remotely, which I've learned that working remotely is just, just not for me. Like, I'm in a hybrid environment now and in a new job now that is so much healthier. And I just like being around my co workers. I like to, it's almost like an accountability thing too. It's like you have to show up for your coworkers and present yourself as a certain way at work. But working remotely, it was so easy for me to run to the gas station, go pick up a couple of feel frees every couple of hours at this point. And I'd already started doing a lot more research about kratom because I, I, I knew it was getting worse. And basically what kratom is, is a plant native to Southeast Asia. And what feel free is, is a kratom extract, which is a highly concentrated version of whole leaf kratom. And it's very similar to an Opiate. So it activates your opiate receptors in the exact same way. A lot of people argue it's not an opiate, but it, it is, it makes you feel the same. I've taken opiates before. I know the feeling. It is exactly the same thing. And Kratom is typically sold in pill and tea form. And a lot advocates, which there are a lot of people that advocate for Kratom say that you can't get addicted to whole leaf powder because it's not as concentrated as extracts, but you definitely can. I know a lot of people who've gotten addicted to whole leaf powder. Extracts are just like a little bit stronger and a lot of people get addicted to it and they really suffer in silence because especially something like a, like a quote unquote wellness tonic, you feel really embarrassed, you're confused, you're like, how do I tell someone that I'm addicted to a wellness tonic? It'd almost be easier if I was addicted to heroin and I could say I got addicted to heroin or I'm an alcoholic because like people know what that is. And a lot of people don't get taken seriously when they say they're addicted to Kratom.

A (25:49)

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B (29:02)

Yeah, it's. So Kratom is also used as like a harm reduction tool for people that are getting off of harder substances. So if someone's coming off of heroin, they might use Kratom. But I mean I think it's just trading one addiction for another. It's, it's, it's a lesser of two evils for sure. And there, there have been kratom related deaths but a significantly fewer than heroin. Like it's all, it's very minuscule compared to harder substances. But, but you can still die from kratom. That has happened before.

A (29:30)

And to become addicted and reliant on something, it. It will stop your life.

B (29:35)

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. It takes away your quality of life. And to have to constantly think about dosing and to. It takes up so much real estate in your brain and it really is so sad. And yeah, the advocates will say they use it as like a harm reduction tool to get off of a harder substance or a harder substance and also for pain management. So a lot of people don't have access to pain medication or they can't get it from Dr. So they'll go to Kratom and get it from like a CBD store or gas station, which is wild that you can just go buy a legal opiate at the gas station or a CBD store completely unregulated, which, that's a whole other story. But yeah, a lot of people will advocate for it. I know in like, Louisiana, for instance, it's. I think it might become illegal. And there were, there was like a rally a few weeks ago of people who were advocating for Kratom. And I don't want to take away from their experience, like, if it helped them get off of something, like it's better for them to be on something like that's, you know, likely not going to kill them than to be on the streets and be on heroin. But it's still something that is so dangerous. And I'm like way more for treating the root cause of addiction and not slapping a band aid over it and just saying, okay, well, let's just give you another drug. Also there are medicines and like other drugs that doctors can dispense, like Suboxone as a drug that are not drug, but like a medicine that people will get on if they're coming off of opiates or Kratom. And that has helped them a lot. And it's not, it's something that's regulated and a doctor can give you and can properly dose, but Kratom, you can't do this with. And it's kind of like a shortcut for a lot of people. So, yeah, I have a lot of people that will kind of come at me for that. But I'm like, I'm just telling my experience. You are completely entitled to your own experience. I cannot speak on the things that you've, you've gone through. But, but yeah, this, this really freaked me out, like researching Kratom more and my, my spending had become really excessive on it. So I consider myself like a pretty responsible person financially. Like, I try to save money I try to not overspend on things. Like, I still like nice things, and I try to be frugal when I can, but I started drinking more and more a day, and the euphoria got less and less, and my body was just trying to, like, chase that first high. And at this point, I was drinking six to eight bottles a day, so it was immediately like waking up buying a bottle, because I would wake up in physical withdrawal, as at this point. So I would feel like I was getting the flu, and I just blamed that on allergies. And I would call out of work and be like, I'm. I'm sick. I have a really bad headache. And it was all physical withdrawals. And I was very much lying to myself.

A (32:05)

Six to eight a day.

B (32:06)

Yeah. Yeah. And that's not even the worst of it. So, yeah, it's crazy. And people ask me how. How I was drinking that many a day. I was, like, puking a lot.

A (32:16)

That's what I was gonna ask you, like, if you started getting sick from having that many.

B (32:20)

Yeah, they. They taste horrible. They mess up your gut terribly. So I was. Was throwing up a lot. I couldn't really keep food down. I was eating basically just, like, crackers all the time and, like, chips and just whatever I. I could eat because everything just upset my stomach. And that was like, a really brutal way to live, because I love food, and I'm like. I love, like, just eating and. And tasting good food. So that took away, like, my love for food. And I was just drinking them to feel some sort of, like, normalcy at that point. And I did also start showing outward signs of physical, signs of addiction. So I was tired all the time. I started to isolate myself. Like, I said no to plans all the time, was getting sick, throwing up. I had super dry and flaky skin. Like, I call it alligator skin. So I would take my clothes off, and flakes of skin would just fly off. So that's primarily due to the kava kava will. Like, one kava is so bad for your liver if you're taking it in excess. And I also had this, like, weird pain in my side, which I think was my liver that went away as soon as I got clean. But it was, yeah, this, like, dull pain, and I just kind of, like, brushed it off. But super flaky skin, was nauseous. It was just like a shell of myself at this point. I look at my eyes and pictures, and I just look like. Just like nobody's home. I lost interest in things that I used to really love, like, running. And before my addiction got really bad, I actually was training for a full marathon right before and had to drop out because the tonics were just making me so sick all the time. And, and I just kind of blamed it on like, oh, I, I can't run the full mileage. Like it's, you know, I just am going to drop out. Like, I half is all I really can do. When in reality I was just really sick and couldn't really exercise anymore. Um, I made the excuse that this was just stress manifesting in my body from my job. And like, everyone believed that it was very, it was really believable because my job was. I mean, from the beginning I would call my mom just in tears, so anxious and it just continued to get worse and worse. And, and I was, I was so scared. Cause I was like, I had always abused alcohol that was easy for me to quit. You know, weed I used for a long time, but it was never this difficult. And like, I'd never had a physical dependency. I've never been physically addicted to something. And this is really scary. And I'm continuing to look at like Reddit groups and more people are posting about their experiences. I'm like terrified at this point. Cause I'm like, I can't tell anyone. Am I gonna have to live the rest of my life like this? I've got a lot of debt now. Like, what, what, what do I even do?

A (34:45)

And your debt was fully coming from your addiction to these things?

B (34:49)

Yep. Yeah. And at first it was like I could pay for it comfortably. I could spend probably like 30, $40 a day and be fine financially. But then it was like, you're starting to spend like upwards to a hundred dollars a day and this is like, which 30 to 40 days. Still a lot of money. Like, I don't justify that either. But it just kept going up. Yeah, it just kept going up. And also at this point, my husband and I had already talked about getting engaged and married, and he did not know about the. And people ask me like, how did he not know? Like, you guys were, you know, you're so close. And we, we weren't living together at the time. Just like because of our faith, like, we weren't living together. We wanted to wait until marriage. We didn't stay the night with each other so I could keep it very secret. I lived alone, didn't have roommates.

A (35:31)

Well, I think too, you know, like, when you're talking about these, like, I'm just imagining like when I buy my ginger Shots. Like, if you had a pack of those in the fridge, I mean, I even had. Had. I've had company send me their little, like, wellness Matcha drinks. And it's like, if those are in the fridge, like, even if somebody sees them and says, oh, what are these? When you. When you read the package or you look at it, it's just a wellness shot.

B (35:54)

Yeah.

A (35:55)

Like, no one's gonna think twice about it, in my opinion. And even if they see you, I mean, granted, if somebody sees you downing them every day, they'd probably be like, what the fuck? But I feel like it's a pretty easy thing to hide when you are living by yourself and you have all this time. Time. And if somebody does stumble upon them or see them, they would just think, like. Like it's a supplement in a way.

B (36:13)

No. Yeah. No one's gonna ask you, are you addicted to this?

A (36:15)

No, that would just. That would be, like, weirder than, you know, like, anything else. It would like to think that, you know, it's just like you said, there's not enough around it almost that people would even go to that or think that.

B (36:28)

Yeah, exactly. Like, it's just. It's such a tricky, weird thing to be addicted to. But it's like, yeah, it's like, we gotta start speaking out about this more. And, like, that's what I want to do, is just make people feel comfortable to tell people, because it's just. It's. It's a really. It's a tricky thing.

A (36:46)

And like, you mentioned as well, which I don't think there's anything wrong with, and I agree with you 100%. If you're trying to get off of a harder drug, you know, I think that in order to do that and to piggyback off of something else, that should be done with a doctor. Like, it shouldn't be done with something that you just have this free access to, to become addicted to something else.

B (37:05)

You know, you can't dose.

A (37:06)

Yeah. Properly, there's that. And also, like, if that's what people want to use that for, then maybe it should only be marketed for that, you know, like, you can't have. In my opinion, it makes no sense to have something that can help you come off heroin and then something that you could. You're supposed to take that'll just make you feel euphoric and as a social tonic.

B (37:24)

Like, what?

A (37:25)

It makes no sense. It's, like, such a huge difference.

B (37:28)

Yeah. And it's just the. The deceptiveness and sneakiness of the company, honestly. And yeah, it's. It's pretty wild that, I mean, something like that is even able to be sold. And I will say too, when I first started taking them, they were sold in like, really high end wellness shops. So I think, like, May, I think Erewhon maybe had them at one point SunLife Organics, which is a huge wellness spot in Austin. And so I was like, oh, this is, yeah, great.

A (37:55)

Good quality. Yeah, good stuff.

B (37:57)

And, and so at this time too, my husband and I's timeline to get engaged was get engaged in March and have a courthouse wedding in May. And we were just like super excited to get married, to live together, to like, start our lives together. It was, yeah, just so, so sweet. And at this time too, I was still actively practicing my faith. My addiction was, like, still at its worst. But I was going to church and praying that God would break me free of this addiction. Because at this point I'm fully aware that I have a problem. And I remember being. Being angry at God because I was like, you called me to give up alcohol. But, like, now I'm in. I feel like I'm like a junkie. Like, I feel like I wake up and I'm like the first person at the gas station ready to get my fix. And it's just interesting because now I realize that he was allowing me to go through that, to be able to share my story and have like, a deeper empathy for, for people who have gone through addiction and gone through a physical dependency like this, which is like, really sweet to look at. And like, like, his plan is just so much greater than we can ever comprehend. Um, so at this point, I'm up to nine to 12 bottles a day, and this is the worst it ever got. Um, I would. And this is like, give or take 9 to 12. Like, sometimes it would be less than that, sometimes it might be more than that. So it was a lot of bottles per day. I would wake up and either immediately run to the gas station and get two bottles, two to three bottles, and.

A (39:15)

Then take the two to three at one time.

B (39:17)

No. So I would probably, like every hour or so I would take one or like every one to two hours. I know it's. I can't even feeling good at this point.

A (39:25)

Or it was simply the addiction of it.

B (39:27)

Simply the addiction. So there was like, maybe the first one I took at the very beginning of the day, like, there was maybe some like, small bit of euphoria that I had when I first took it. Like, I would go to the gas station, literally, like, take it in the car like on the way home. Before my work day started and I would wake up for work, I started work at 8:30. I would wake up at like 8, 8:15 because I was just like so sick every day and just like have to run to the gas station, come back, clock in and start my work day. And my work was like really slipping at this time too. Like I'm pretty sure I was about to get fired. But I, yeah, would start taking them first thing in the morning and I would after like the first couple of hours, take another one, take another one after like a couple of hours. And literally just to get through my work day, I had to keep taking them. So it would be two to three in the morning at lunch, two more bottles, you know, two to three more bottles late afternoon and then like maybe two to three more bottles in the evening. And I was easily spending like over $120 a day at this point. And that's like, that's like three grand, 3, 500amonth. Which is, I could have like had a house, like rented another house.

A (40:36)

Yeah, literally.

B (40:38)

Yeah, it is like, oh, it hurts my soul. But I was also having the bottles delivered via Uber Eats and doordash to my apartment, which is so dangerous because I'm like, like, yeah, I already don't need. There was a point where I was hoping like some like one of the delivery people would like notice I was ordering so many and like, like, like put like a note. It'd be like if you need help or like okay, yeah. Because I'm like, they like, the shop owners have to be like, this girl cannot be well, but, but yeah, I was going to the same gas stations every day and I was, yeah, doing Uber Eats and I ended up draining my savings. I maxed out both my credit cards. So I had a credit card for $10,000, a credit card for $2,000. I took out a 3,500$ like quick cash loan, which is like, I think it was called like Credit Fresh. And you get your money the same day, but the interest rate is like stop.

A (41:32)

And you took it out for these drinks?

B (41:34)

Yes. And, and just to be able to like buy groceries. Like I have a, I mean I wasn't eating much but like I have a cat and a dog or had a cat and a dog at the time. And I was like, I gotta, you know, make sure they're taken care of and fed and whatever. And I was taking out like, I took out that super sketchy loan, was in about $15,000 worth of debt over These and it was like as soon as my paycheck would hit, I would run to the gas station and buy more. Feel free. There were days I would wake up and withdraw and had literally $0 in my bank account, like was in the negatives. And yeah, I would just like wait for my paycheck to come through and I'd be withdrawing until I could go get, get my fix. And I remember one day there was even, I think I was like 500 negative in my like debit account and I had to ask my mom for money because I had ordered through Uber Eats and I could pay. I don't know why I was paying through like Venmo on Ubereats. I think that you can like it like doesn't it takes out the money later or something. And I was like trying having ways around it in case my account was at zero. And I remember I had to like ask my mom for money and I forgot what excuse I made, but I was like, oh, I was just like ordering Ubereats and so. And she knew I was like anxious and like depressed at this time. And I think everyone was just trying to like make sure I was okay and that I was like healthy and doing well, which like, obviously I wasn't really at the time. But yeah, I was. I was going to every gas station within like a 5 to 10 mile radius of my apartment. And throughout the day it would get to a point where I was so embarrassed to see like the clerks, the gas station because I was like, they're gonna like, what are they gonna think of me? I'm buying. You know, I can't come back more than once in a day. So I, I would hop around from gas station to gas station and, and that's when I started using delivery too. Cause I was like, I just don't want them to see me anymore. And I, it's funny because now that I'm clean, I'm like, I wonder if they think I just like mysteriously like passed away or something. I just stopped coming all of a sudden.

A (43:27)

But so at this point no one knew about addiction, right?

B (43:31)

No one knew.

A (43:31)

And did you ever have a thought in your head like maybe I should go to a rehab or something for this? I mean, at the same time, like, I feel like, like, why would you think that for something like that? Cuz I think that we do, when we do think of things like rehab and stuff, we're thinking of it for harder drugs and stuff.

B (43:50)

Yeah, yeah, I, I didn't actually think about rehab seriously until I told People about my addiction. And that was like, when I started to take a little bit more seriously, I was like, oh, maybe rehab's an option. I don't know. And I, I did think about rehab though. I didn't end up choosing that route. But at that time though, before I told anyone I wasn't thinking about it yet, Ye. I honestly had convinced myself that I was gonna have to live like this for the rest of my life. And I was like, I don't know what my. Because you're mentally so messed up and you're like, I don't remember what my life was like before these. Like, right. How am I gonna.

A (44:23)

We didn't even know what it felt to feel good off of anything.

B (44:27)

I'm like, how am I gonna enjoy anything? Because I would take these when I felt sad, when I felt happy. Like, it was. A lot of people will take things and like, cope when they're like, like feeling really, like, sad about something or like going through something hard. Like, I feel like I took them more for the like, happy things in my life. I'm like, oh, it's a friend's birthday, let's go celebrate. I just got this promotion, I gotta celebrate, like. And that was what was hardest for me when I got clean too, is that I was like, I don't have anything to like, yeah, take when I celebrate, you know, And I like, that's gotten better. But yeah, kind of to. To like, get back to that timeline I had mentioned. Like, I thought I was probably gonna get fired from my job because my work was slipping so much and it was hard for me to function because I just thought about dosing all day, every day. And this is why Kratom extracts are called gas station heroin. Because I would literally show up to the gas station first thing in the morning. Like, hadn't brushed my hair, hadn't literally slippers, pajama pants, T shirt, just like whatever I could put on and be there like a junkie just to buy my drug. And you know, people would lose weight when they were taking these. They were throwing up all the time. Like, I just was not healthy. I feel like my, like, yeah, my, my whole body was just in turmoil at that time. And some nights when I couldn't sleep too. I don't think anyone knows this, but I would drive to like a 24 hour gas station in like the middle of the night and go buy like a few bottles because I just couldn't sleep. I would wake up in the middle of the night with like, heart palpitations because Kratom's also a stimulant. So it would make you feel really, like, anxious too, if you took too much. And I remember, like, walking upstairs and my heart would be, like, pounding out of my chest. And I'm really grateful it did not give me, like, lasting heart problems, but it very much could have. So I actually ended up making the decision to quit my job on March 11th of 2024, which, again, like, I quit before I was able to get fired. There was just, like, stuff going on with my boss. I was treated really poorly, and people talk about quiet, quitting their job, and they'll kind of just like, trickle off and, like, you know, stop doing the work. I think I was getting quite fired, so I think it was like they were just slowly taking me out of meetings. They were. I was supposed to go on, like, a. A trip to meet one of my clients. They just did not tell me I was not going and took someone else. It was like a very toxic environment. And I also, like, fully take responsibility for my actions and not doing my job like I should have at the time. Like, I don't want to. Want to put that all on the company. But my husband was super gracious at the time. He was my boyfriend, but he. I knew he was gonna be my husband. He was super gracious and offered to help me out financially at that time. And again, he did not know about the addiction. So it's like, you know, helping me out with, like, just normal bills and making sure I'm good. And he didn't know about my spending habits or anything. And I think at this point, too, I was still getting paid, so I was able to, like, quickly pay off some credit card debt and then just reuse it it again to buy the bottles. So on March 15th of 2024, my husband and I ended up getting engaged. And he planned the most beautiful proposal. He got my mom flown in. He involved my best friend Katie, and it was just like, super special. My. My best friend Katie is a prop stylist, and they. I. So I had modeled for shoots for her before, and she had worked with, like, really cool brands and stuff too. And she had told me that she wanted me to model for a shoot. And she was gonna, like, we were gonna meet at her house. She was gonna, like, and go to the location, and we, like, get to the location. It's just like, beautiful, like, secret garden type of situation. And we get there and I start, like, shooting with the photographer, and my husband just, like, comes out of nowhere. And I'M like, I didn't register what was happening. My mom's behind him, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is so sweet. And, yeah, it was just such a sweet proposal. It was perfect. And I. I think I'd taken about six shots that day. And it makes me really sad because I look back at, like, the pictures and, like, to know I was in active addiction during that specific time, time that, like, took away from, like, that portion of the engagement, like, makes me really sad because I'm like, wow, that would have been, like, a great thing to experience fully sober. But I also know that, like, God's timing is so perfect and, like, it. I'm gonna explain, like, why it needed to happen that weekend and, like, why that, you know, that weekend really changed a lot for me. But we get engaged, and again, like, we're not living together at this point. And my mom, she. Her plan was to stay with me. And I did not know this. I had not prepared for someone to stay in my apartment with me. So I was really nervous because I did not know how I was supposed to use around her because I hadn't seen her since Christmas when my addiction was not as bad. And I was like, I don't know how I'm supposed to be able to take, like, bottles around her. And I just remember my part. My apartment, too, was such a mess because I was just not taking care of myself anymore. My laundry had piled up. Up my. I was like. When I would detox in the morning, my sweat smelled like ammonia. So, like, my sheets smelled horrible. I had, like, really bad BO and the. So the day after me and Tolu got engaged, I only had four shots with my mom there. And that was, like, trying to maneuver a lot, getting those shots and, like, making excuses for those because we had. My mom and I had taken them together before. That was, like, part of the excuse. And I remember waking up that morning, the day after we got engaged. I didn't really get out of bed until, like, 1pm Because I was like, I don't want her to see me. Me, like, use a shot right away. I don't really know how to take one. Or, like. Cause I didn't have any in my apartment, and I didn't have any, like, unopened ones. And I was like, I don't know how to go buy one or get one delivered. So I kind of, like, sneakily had a couple delivered, and I was able to take some. And then we took some before dinner, which we went to, like, a little engagement Dinner with my husband. And my best friend Katie was there, too. And I was just, like, taking those bottles in secret. I remember taking one right before bed two. And come Sunday morning, so two days after we get engaged, we're getting ready to go to church with Tolu, my husband and I. Something in me was just like, you're not going to take any bottles today. And I'm like, that was probably the Holy Spirit telling me, like, you. You know, today's the day. And I just made the decision I wasn't going to take any bottles that day. I was like. And some people say, you know, maybe you just, like, subconsciously felt safe because your mom was there and you, like, you had your husband, your best friend, like, people around you that really love you and care for you, and, like, your body just kind of knew, like, this is the time to detox and, like, open up about it. And I'm making an attempt to get ready for church, and I'm pretty much going into severe withdrawal immediately. I'm like, I. How did I know this is gonna happen? But I'm dizzy. I can't stand up straight. And I felt like I was gonna pass out. I was like, there's. There's no way we're going to church this morning. And I tell my mom. I'm like, I need to go to the hospital. And keep in mind, too, everyone thinks that I'm still having these health issues because of my job. Like, I just quit my job. So it was only a week, week after quitting. And they're like, okay, you've just been super stressed. Like, your body is just kind of going out of whack because of that stress. And I texted my husband and, like, told him what was going on, that I was going to the hospital. And he was like, do I need to come with you? And I was like, no, it's fine. Like, just go to church. I honestly didn't want him to see me going through withdrawal because I was like, he doesn't know about this, and, like, I don't want him to see this. And we get to the hospital, I get fluids. I still haven't told anyone what's going on, and I had secretly hoped they would, like, run some sort of test on me that would find Kratom in my system and so I could just, like, finally open up. I was just so sick of being addicted at this point, and I just thought that would be, like, an easier way for me to come clean. And after I got the fluids, we came home to my apartment, and I immediately got to bed, and this was when the physical withdrawals, like, really started to kick in. And this was the most uncomfortable I've ever felt in my life. Like, it's kind of hard to explain. Anybody who's gone through opiate withdrawals knows what I'm talking about. And there have been people who have gotten off of heroin that said that Kratom was than worse. Worse than getting off of heroin. And I felt like there was just this electricity running through my body constantly. I could not get comfortable for, like, the life of me. I had horrible restless legs. I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep. My mom was there, like, making sure I at least took a few bites of food and, like, drank water and just wasn't, like, withering away completely. And I was. I was literally going into opiate detox from a wellness tonic, which is so crazy. And. And I was crying a lot because the emotional and mental withdrawals were so tough. And I just remember being like, I don't want to be left alone. I'm so sad. Like, why is this happening on my engagement weekend? Like, this is. I've destroyed my life. Like, how am I going to open up about this? And my mom was. Was crying, and she was calling Tolu and, like, calling my dad, and. And she was just like, I don't know what's going on with Jazz. I don't know if she's dying. Like, there's this, like, weird, undiagnosed illness. The hospital couldn't tell us anything. And that first day of detox was absolutely the worst. On the second day, I did start to, like, slightly feel better, and I kind of rewind to the first night that I detox. I took NyQuil. And, like, fun fact, you're not supposed to take NyQuil when you're detoxing, because it makes restless legs worse. So that made my withdrawals even worse. Taking the nyquil. And so I wake up. It's a Monday, the day after my first day of detox, and I felt good enough to actually. Actually, like, just get out of bed and go grab, like, a bite to eat with my mom. And so later that day, that Monday, my mom is running some errands for me. We had come back from lunch. She, like, did some things around my house, did laundry for me, like, took care of the animals, and it was just so sweet to me and, like, really took great care of me. And I remember I got up to go to the bathroom, and I still couldn't stand for long periods of time. So I Just, like, sat on the toilet, like, wasn't even going to the bathroom. Just, like, sat on the toilet and was just kind of, like, contemplating life and everything I was going through. And all of a sudden I felt what I know to be the Holy Spirit, which, like, if you're not a believer, is the spirit that enters into you and you become a Christian and gives you, like, the direction and the discernment as a believer and also represents, like, God's presence within us. And I felt the Holy Spirit convict me to come clean about my addiction to my loved ones and spare, like, no details. It was. It was just this immediate, like, wash of. You gotta, like, confess right now. And, like, now is the time. And this was, like, God telling me that it was finally time for me to be free. Which is, like, so ironic because the product is called Feel Free. And it just. It. You know, people joke and they say it should be called Feel Trapped and.

A (54:54)

Right.

B (54:56)

But I first immediately came out of the bathroom and sat my mom down, and she had actually, like, like I said, taken Feel Free with me a few times. So she knew that it, like, made her feel good, but it wasn't to the point of being hooked. Like, thank goodness. And I told her about my debt, how many I was drinking a day that I might, like, seriously need to consider rehab. And that was when I was like, mom, do I need to go to rehab? Like, I don't know how that works. Like, what do I do? And she. She was like, I don't think you need to go to rehab. But, like, I'm so relieved that you told me. And that was not a reaction that I was expecting. Like, I. I needed to give my loved ones more credit because they're amazing. But I was, like, expecting some sort of, like, oh, you've been, like, lying to me. You've been asking me for money for. To pay for these things. And. No, she was, like, truly an angel and was like, I'm relieved that you told me. Because she, like, truly thought I was dying from something just undiagnosed. She was like, this is, like, a good thing. We can, like, help you. And, like, we can help you get clean. And, like, thank you so much for telling me. And, like, this is what I tell people who will reach out to me and ask, like, how do I. I, like, how should I respond to someone that tells me that they're addicted to these? And I'm like, tell them that you were so proud of them for opening up to you. Do not make them feel judged. Don't make them feel condemned because, like, they already are judging themselves. Yeah. Like, they already feel all the shame and embarrassment. So right after I told her, I called Tolu and I, like, told him everything and he had the same exact reaction. Like there was no judgment, no condemnation. He did not shame me at all and made me feel, like, really empowered and supported. And he's always told me, like, it is never me and you against each other. It's always me and you against the problem. And like, he really treated my addiction that way. And he's like, okay, like, let's, you know, work on getting you clean. And like, how can I support you in this? Which was just so gracious. And like, that's truly the love of Christ. And like, that's the best way I can explain it is like I, I feel like Christ was just like working through them so heavily and through my addiction. And that was just so sweet. And then, then a few days later, my best friend Katie came over and I told her in person and like, sat her down and she was so empathetic, like she has a soft spot for addiction too. And we sat down and watched like a bunch of 12 step videos together. And she's like, all right, we're gonna get you clean. Like, I'm so proud of you for opening up. And she actually went with me to my first Narcotics Anonymous meeting, which was. Was so sweet and supportive. And after that, it took took about two weeks to like, fully feel like myself again after the physical detox. And it. The physical detox was like three to four days really severely. And then like progressively started to get better. Better. My skin, like I said, was really dry from the kava. And I mean, I was putting on like castor oil, all these different types of lotions. And like, it just sucked up all the moisture. And then finally at about two weeks, I started feeling like, like my physical self again. And people will kind of talk about the pink cloud that you experience in sobriety when you first get sober. You're like, oh my gosh, this is what it feels like to feel physically good again. That's what I felt. I was like, oh my gosh. Wow. I'm so happy that, like, I decided to get sober from these things. And like, God convicted me of that. And at this point, I was not tempted to relapse cuz I was like, those withdrawals were horrible. I never want to go do that again. I'm like, that scared me. And, and, and I want to say too, like, I, I don't want to condone Anyone just like quitting cold turkey and not consulting a medical professional because that can be very dangerous. Like, you could have a seizure. You could. You don't know how your body's going to react. Like, I was just fortunate that I could detox at home. And like, I didn't consult a medical professional, which I, you know, probably should have. But yeah, just like, please consult your doctor if you're going to go through something like that. And yeah, like the physical withdrawals were for not super long by any means, but the worst by far was the mental withdrawals. I would say that about at this, at like six months sober is when I started to feel normal mentally again. That was really tough because I kind of just felt this sense of like dullness and sadness after the initial high of the pink cloud, which lasted for about a month. So up until then, like, it was very tempting to relapse because I was like, like my life was. You kind of, your trauma starts to kind of like your brain forgets it and you stop thinking about it as much and you start romanticizing your drug of choice and you're like, oh, well, this is why I used it. It made me feel really good when I, like went out to dinner with friends and you kind of start to forget what it put you through. But during that time too, I also experienced a lot of anhedonia, which is basically a lack of joy and pleasure and everyday things that you used to love. So, like, my brain chemistry was like getting back to normal again. And at about like two months sober from kratom in June of 2024 is when I decided to share my story publicly on TikTok. And I knew like from the moment I got sober that I wanted to talk about it because I was like, someone's gotta bring more awareness to this. Like, I wish I would have had someone actively talking about their addiction on social media and I could have like watched their videos, right?

A (59:50)

Because I think in, you know when that happens, especially with something that you, you really have no idea about, it gives you that insight and knowledge and there's nothing like experience of somebody else, like real experience of someone else. Because it's one thing to Google something, but I feel like Google has so much mixed reviews. There's no. Just a real link or a story usually that you can click and read someone's firsthand experience with something. And that's why I always say there's a huge reason why I do this show so that you can look something up and just very clearly and straight to the point. Hear someone's story. Yeah, And I think too that would have helped you, you know, not feel that shame and to even have an understanding of like, wow, like you can be addicted to something that isn't marketed as a, like, as a drug.

B (60:34)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, that's so true. And like, yeah, it's just, it's a lot, it's a hard place to feel seen and related to and I, I do think a lot more people are speaking out now. It's. Which is really cool to see. I mean, I hate that so many people have struggled with this, but.

A (60:49)

Yeah, I was just gonna ask you, have you found other people that have had gone through what you have from that drink?

B (60:54)

Yeah, I mean, I would say even just like on Reddit alone, there's like tens of thousands of people and I, I still get messages on TikTok, probably weekly from people who are like specifically addicted to feel free. And it's like, that's the thing too is addiction does not, it doesn't have like a specific look. You can still be very high functioning, you can still hold a really good job, you can be a mom, you can be a dad, you can be, be, you know, really active in your like workout community, whatever it is. And you can still be so physically addicted to something. And I get messages from like moms who are postpartum and who get addicted to feel free because it's like helping them with their depression and they don't know how to like tell their husband or a lot of people who don't know how to tell their spouses because it's, that's, that's a hard thing to do to be like, I've been hiding this from you for a while, especially when like, you do share finances maybe. And like, that's really tricky. And I just always tell people, I'm like, you gotta me tell, tell them. I'm like, you have to tell your spouse. Like that is the most important relationship that you have. You have to tell them and you have to open up to someone like, close to you. If it's not your spouse, like, you gotta tell someone first. And that is the first step to getting clean. Like, for me it was just putting it out there and being like, okay, like, this is not a burden carrying it alone anymore. Yes, exactly, exactly. And I too, in those moments, you.

A (62:07)

Don'T even know how to help yourself because mentally you're so not there there. You know, you're not present, you're not your highest self. So I think in moments like those, you need other brains to like, help you and be like, this is okay. And it's a lot easier than you think it is. Like, in the sense of, like, getting the help. Like, obviously, yeah. Going through the withdrawals and everything else, like that. That part's, you know, indescribable. But I think that, you know, in those moments you feel like the shame and the guilt and the withdrawal almost overpower hours. Getting clean part, you know.

B (62:40)

Yeah, exactly. And it's like you can't. Sometimes you can't get help unless you ask for it.

A (62:44)

Yeah.

B (62:44)

And that's really hard too, you know, and scary. It is. It's very scary. And just I sympathize too, because you don't know how people are going to respond and you're like, oh my gosh, is this person gonna. Because I do get, you know, the messages I get from people and they end up telling me, like I told my spouse, like, they did not respond well. And I'm like, we'll give them time because, like, they do have a right to feel hurt. Like, they do have a right to, to, you know, feel. You may be sad that you were hiding this from them, but, like, let them feel their emotions and like, it, you know, they will likely come around and, like, things will be okay. So. But every situation is different and I can only just, like, hope the best for people. But when I shared on TikTok about my kratom addiction, I had. So previously I'd already been using the platform to talk about my sobriety from alcohol. And so I was really scared to share my story about Kratom too, because I felt like I was. Was living this lie on TikTok of like, oh, I'm talking about sobriety, but I'm like, actively becoming addicted to Kratom. And that's part of the reason I was in denial too, because I had built like a, like a small following. But I was talking about getting sober from alcohol but, like, still taking Kratom shots. And that was like, way before the addiction got really bad. It was like during that year of I was taking them kind of more sporadically, but I wasn't fully sober. And like, I have to own up to that. And yeah, I ended up posting a 10 minute video telling my story from start to finish on TikTok. And I, I thought like a small, small group of people would resonate. I'm like, who knows if people even know what I'm talking about here? And I ended up getting over a million views and I, like, now use my platform to Talk about Kratom addiction and just, like, normalize conversations about addiction as a whole. Because there are so many types of addictions, and it's not. It's not just Kratom. It's not just, you know, alcohol, weed, heroin, whatever it is. Like, it could be so many different things. And, yeah, just, like, getting messages from people on, like, a weekly basis either with a Kratom addiction. Sometimes it's alcohol, too, or, like, a different substance. They don't know how to tell their spouse or their, you know, partner or whatever. And I try to give them the best advice that I can, and a lot of times I'm the only person that they've told, which is, like, such a huge honor. And, like, I feel so grateful to, like, be able to hold that space for them because I. Yeah, I wish there would have been, like, someone I could have messaged and been like, hey, like, I haven't told anyone this yet, but, you know, I just want to put it out there and kind of just, like, you know, make this feel a little bit better. But in a weird way, I am, like, really grateful that this happened to me because, like I said, it gave me so much more empathy and understanding for addiction. And just I'm so passionate about, like, treating that root cause and, like, not just slapping band aids over it and not just, you know, medication is necessary in certain circumstances. Like, I'm not against medication in any way, shape, or form, but to, you know, replace one drug with another, and then, like, someone is stuck on something, their entire life is just not healthy. And there's just. Just. There's so much trauma that is, like, rooted at the core of addiction. And it's like, how can we. And I know, like, we don't necessarily have all the resources for it, but, like, how can we help treat people's, like, trauma and the things they've gone through and, like, normalize conversations around it and not make them feel like they have to, like, bottle up all these things forever. Because I think, like, a lot of my addiction had to do with, like, my self worth. Like, I had very low self worth for many, many years and change just, you know, the way I viewed men and, like, my relationships and just I was super codependent on a lot of people. And I used substances to really soothe my emotions to make me more confident because, like, I was just not confident in myself. And it wasn't until, like, walking in true sobriety that I'm able to, like, actually learn who I truly am and, like, get to, like, really love Myself. And it's like treating addiction doesn't just look like, I mean, rehab is a great thing. I think rehab is wonderful. I think that is a great resource. But it's, it like looks like treating the deep emotional healing that's needed in like recovery programs. And I'm really passionate about like trying to get those types of things, like, implemented into different recovery programs. And now I'm over a year clean and sober and caffeine is the only thing that I will, that I will drink. And I don't partake in anything that could be potentially mind altering. I'm like, I learned my lesson. And some people ask like, do you still take kava since you never had like a problem with it? And I'm like, no, absolutely not. I'm just like, frankly traumatized, so I.

A (66:56)

Don'T see what it can do. And you know, excessive doses with the dry skin and, and everything like that. I do have a question. Did you ever reach out to the company?

B (67:07)

Yeah, so I did not reach out to the company. People ask me, they're like, have they reached out to you? Did you reach out? And I have, I've heard from people who have like, worked for Feel Free and have worked for the company that have like reached out to me on TikTok. They've gone on podcast and of talked about like, what it, what it's like to actually work for the company and kind of like the deceptiveness around it and that it's not, it's not spoken about as something that could ever be addictive. Like at the company, they're still talking about the product like they do to like the general public. They're like, this is similar to like, they'll, they'll make you feel shamed, basically. If you come to, you know, some like someone higher up and say, I'm addicted to these, they will like gaslight you and be like, no, you're not. Like, this is not an addictive product. So I, I, I truly believe that, like, God is the one that will serve justice. Like, I don't feel like I necessarily need to like, you know, yeah, boycott or reach out to the company. Like, I think justice will be served. But there was a class action lawsuit against the company or there still is, I think. And I submitted my information. Haven't heard a lot back yet, but I'm like very much encouraging people to submit all their information. You can submit your receipts and different things like that. So it's the website. Website is Feel Free Class action Dot com, I think. And you can Go there and like submit your information. And that's what I, that's like the action I want to take. And like, yeah, as far as the company, like, I, I, I'm a true believer of like forgiveness and that like, even if someone is wrong to you, like you're supposed to treat them with kindness and love. And I just know that like hurt people, hurt people. And like, that's kind of how I view the founder of the company. It's like you can be so angry and so just like distraught that someone would create a product like this. But like, I just, I want to practice the same forgiveness that God has shown me. And like, that's, it's a really hard thing to do, especially when you feel like someone has wronged you so deeply. But that's just kind of how I view the company. And like I, I truly believe my job is to educate and not to be like angry and condemn and just be like, oh screw you. Like, that's just, I want to be able to help people out of this more than anything.

A (69:09)

The website and the bottle, do they mention anything like a warning that this product could become addictive or.

B (69:16)

No. So it says, it did not used to say this, but it says it's habit forming. It does not say addictive anywhere on the bottle. You do have to be 21 years old now to buy it. At the time that I first got hooked, you could be any age to buy it, which is really crazy and dangerous to think about. But there was no serving size in the bottle back at that time too. There actually used to be a stronger version of the bottle, like more potent. And then they like, like, like kind of diluted the potency a little bit. And they have like different types of bottles now. But yeah, there's just like very, very little regulation about it. And, and yeah, you can still get them at like gas stations and CBD stores. They are no longer sold at these like high end wellness shops. I, I think they very quickly caught on, especially after the, the lawsuit with that guy that I was talking about earlier. That's when they were, they actually were taken out of like all stores for a period of time. And this was like when I started to become addicted to them and I was like kind of freaking out. I drove to like multiple gas stations. I was like, where are the feel freeze? They're like, they haven't brought them back and like, I don't know when they'll be back. And at that time too, I kind of took that as a sign. I'm like okay, maybe I'm supposed to quit. And then they started coming back into stores and I just started taking them again. And it's really sad. Cause there's. There are a lot of similar products now too that are marketed in the same way. And it's. The more I've learned about this industry is that when one product. Product gets banned or regulated, a new product will come on the market that's similar. It's like. It's kind of like a problem that I don't know will ever be solved. But there are. Yeah, like, different things. There's another. There's like different shots that will kind of be like off brand of feel free. They're like mood booster euphoria. There's this brand called New Brew, which is a like, like beverage drink. It's like in a soda can. And there was actually a famous influencer. I forgot what her name was, but she. She started. I think. I think it was Emmy is her name. And she would. She drank these like. I don't know if it was New Brew, but it was a similar brand. But she was drinking them every day. And she had no idea that they were like a drug essentially. And she's like. She made a tick tock video and she was like, guys, I was telling my friends about these drinks. I was like, you gotta get on this. This is making me feel good. And she was like, this is like heroin in a can. In a can, yeah.

A (71:28)

Oh, my God.

B (71:29)

So it's just. It's crazy.

A (71:31)

And it's definitely very, very important to spread awareness because I think that it's very easy to innocently, you know, lean on other things or try things. And especially when we do live in a society to this day, that people really do rely on something to be social. And I think that if it's not alcohol, it's something else. Because so many people are drinking and it. It feels. It almost is like this need to have something in your hand.

B (71:58)

Yeah.

A (71:58)

Because everybody else does.

B (72:00)

Yeah.

A (72:01)

And it's unfortunate that it is such a. Alcohol in general is such a social thing. It's like, even to this day, if some. If I hear from somebody, it's like, oh, we should grab drinks. Why does it have to be that? You know, like, why can't it be coffee? Or like, why can't it just be like, let's take a walk. You know, it's just such a. A common thing. It's such a icebreaker for people. It's liquid courage. Like, you know, even like you mentioned in the beginning of Your addiction with these drinks, it was like you were kind of thriving in a way. So I think that that can easily make something, you know, you become so dependent on it in so many different settings and environments because it's. It becomes easier. It makes certain. Certain things easier in life.

B (72:41)

Yeah, that's so. It's so true because it's. People talk about Kratom extracts is. There's this honeymoon phase where everything is going great, and you're like, this is amazing. And this is how it's going to be forever. And then. And then one day you're drinking 10 bottles a day, and you're like, I don't know how I got here. And I. I think that's a really good point that you made about just everyone having some sort of, like, vice. Like, whatever it is, it could be alcohol, smoking, whatever. But it is. It is such a hard thing to live fully sober and not depend on a substance. And I'm. I'm not against, like, having a drink, especially people can moderate their drinking. I'm like, go for it. But. But if it's something that is, you know, blocking you from living to be, like, the truest version of yourself, and you can't. You're not tapping into, like, something deep within. And, like, for me, that was my relationship with the Lord. It's like, it's like, I luckily wanted to have that badly enough and, like, he convicted me enough to be able to stop. But, like, it's not easy to do that. Like, it is. I never thought I would be fully sober in a million years. I was like, I used to make fun of sober people and be like, how does someone just, like, not do anything? Like, it's, what a boring life to live. And. And it's. I saw a TikTok where this girl was like, the hardest drug you will ever do is full sobriety. I was like, that is so true. Because you're just faced with all of your emotions. You're faced with all your trauma.

A (74:00)

You can't ask anything.

B (74:01)

No, you can't. But it's like, I encourage it so much because it is the most freeing thing I've ever done for myself. And it's like just this wonderful thing. I get to just live life truly to the fullest, be so present. I feel like I have more time in the day. Day. I mean, of course, not having hangovers or, like, getting sick is a wonderful thing too. But, yeah, it's just. It's been really cool. And. And now I help lead a recovery program at my church. And it's, it's more of like an all encompassing recovering program. So it's not just for like drug or alcohol addiction. It's for like childhood trauma, like porn addiction, eating disorders, codependency. You can literally bring whatever you have to the table. And it's more about that, like, in depth healing. And there's like a 15 week step study program where you go through like self inventory and you're able to, to really like, look into the root causes of addictions or like just things that you're dealing with. And the way I look at it is like, we're never fully recovered. Like, we're, we're constant. Everyone has like their things that they're going through. And like, no one is ever gonna get to a point where they're like, all right, I'm perfect. I've recovered from everything. Like, new things are gonna continue to come up. So it's like, it is so important to continue to do that self work for that reason. And yeah, like, it, it, you know, with as far as Kratom, it's completely illegal in some states like Alabama. Completely illegal. And it's, you know, completely unregulated in other states. So I know, like, states like Florida, they have a lot of like, kratom kava bars and different things and a lot of people getting hooked on it. And I would just like to see more regulation and education. Like, I don't necessarily think Kratom should be completely illegal. Like, if it's something that is dosed properly by a medical professional, like education, I think that's fine. But I, I just don't think that it should be able to be easily purchased at a CBD store or gas station, even with an age limit. Cause it's like, you know, addictive products are addictive products. And yeah, I just will never stop sharing my story. And it's like sometimes I feel like I talk about it so much on, on social media, but I'm like, it just is so important to keep bringing awareness to this and like, this problem is not going away. And like, I just, I get comments from people saying, you know, I was gonna try this product, then I saw your video and now I'm not gonna buy. And I like, that's amazing because I don't want you to go down the same path. And then some people will say, oh, well, like, you make it sound good. Like, I want to try it. And I'm like, it was good for a time period, but please be careful. Like, please do your research. If you fully Research this product, and you decide you still want to take it. You're an adult. You can do whatever you want to do, you know, but, yeah, I'm just, yeah. Happy that I got to, you know, be here and share my story and, you know, thank you for allowing me to do that. So you said.

A (76:36)

Really? You did? Incredible. Incredible.

B (76:37)

Thank you. I hope that was long enough to. Flew through.

A (76:41)

You did. It was an hour 20. Okay, great.

B (76:43)

Perfect.

A (76:44)

No, and it was so. So we were so organized and amazing.

B (76:46)

Thank you. Of course.

A (76:47)

No, and I. Like I said before, the awareness is so important, but also the fact that I'm sure it feels really good and fulfilling within yourself, like, very full circle, to know that, you know, some people are going to stumble across your story, and it would. Could prevent them from a whole, you know, year or two years of ruining their lives or completely going back to backwards, you know, and what starts as something innocent can easily turn very dark very fast. And your story is a prime example of that. And, you know, it sucks because you made this decision to do something so good for yourself by going sober, and you're innocently looking for, like, a mocktail in a way, like something that's gonna, like, you know, just, I guess you could say, fill the void, but at the same time, that's not what your mindset is like. You're just like, what else can I do? That's like a healthier version. And, you know, there are things like that out there, and it's. It's dangerous, and it's important to spread awareness and talk about it, and I think you did an amazing job with that, and I don't think you should stop sharing your story because there's a lot of important aspects in there. And I think, you know, besides just this product, the point that you spoke on about the shame and the guilt, and a lot of people feel that in all different types and forms of addiction. And it's something. And I think it's a stigma that needs to be broken. Like, there's. Yeah, we don't have to feel shameful. Like, at the end of the day, we're all just human. Like, you know, no one person is better than another person. You know, everybody's dealing with something different. Some things might be more serious than others, but no one is perfect. Like, everybody's dealing with something and going through something. Everybody has their shit, so.

B (78:19)

Exactly.

A (78:20)

No, you did an amazing job, and I'm so happy that you wanted to come on this platform and share it. So thank you so much. Seriously. You did incredible.