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- [00:01]
Kristen
This episode is brought to you by Dutch Bros. Big smiles, rocking tunes and epic drinks. Dutch Bros. Is all about you choose from a variety of customizable handcrafted beverages like our Rebel Energy drinks, coffees, teas and more. Download the Dutch Bros app for a free medium drink. Plus find your nearest shop, order ahead and start earning rewards offer valid for new app users only. Free medium drink reward upon registration 14 day expiration terms apply. See Dutchbros.com I am Kristen and first of all, I'm just grateful to be here today because I feel like you do such a good job at allowing people to have a voice and to share their story and it allows them the space to be able to process what they lived. And that's something that is so hard for people to do when they live through trauma, is processing what they lived and understanding that what they live was actually traumatic for them. Like, I didn't understand that I had trauma until I was 38 and I have lived through trauma all my life and I didn't realize it. So the fact that you have this platform is just amazing to me. Thank you. So I guess my story kind of goes back whenever I was young. Obviously I was born in Utah. We lived there until I was about 4 years old. And then my parents decided to move across country to North Carolina. So I came from a like Mormon family type thing. And we moved to North Carolina whenever I was 4. And I don't have a lot of memories of my childhood, to be perfectly honest. But I do remember when we got there, we found a house. And next door to our house was, there's a little apartment that was there and they had kids in the house. So one of the kids that lived there became my older brother's best friend. He was 7. I was 4 years old at the time, almost 5. And I don't remember meeting him, but he always remembered exactly what I was wearing the day that he met me. I guess I was the first one. My parents have five kids, so I have four siblings. And he always said that he remembered exactly what I was wearing. I was the first one that he met and he was. But he said that I was bouncing on my knees on trampoline with like cutoff jeans and a pink shirt with an elephant on it with piggy tails or something. I don't know, know. But. So that was the first time that I met my second husband. He grew up next door, so he was always at our house. It was kind of his safe place because he was living through his own stuff. But that's his story. So he became best friends with my brother and was over a lot, and we got kind of close and he was kind of like a brother to me for a very long time, which is kind of weird, but. But it was a very small town where we moved to, like, very. So it's like everybody knew everybody. Yeah.
- [02:59]
Kit
But also he was hanging with your brother, so it almost gives you that, like, perception, I feel like, to some degree.
- [03:05]
Kristen
Yeah, exactly. So we became friends throughout the years, and at some point, I guess he said, whenever I turned 12, he was like, I started developing. And actually I started developing when I was 10, but so I started developing and he started getting a crush on me. And we tried to date whenever I was 13, but it didn't. My brother wouldn't talk to me anymore. He just was like, that was his best friend, you know, and had been for years. So he was mad at me. So I was like, okay, this can't. We can't date. And first of all, why the frick am I dating at the age of 13 anyways? Like, that's just not okay. And honestly, I'm kind of skipping. So I guess I could go back a little tiny bit. But he's a big part of my story.
- [03:46]
Kit
Yeah.
- [03:48]
Kristen
So I had quite a few neighbors. Well, I had a friend, her name was Jackie, and she had a brother who lived next door, too. So it's like growing up in North Carolina. First of all, let's talk about that area. It's a very toxic area to grow up in. It's like southern Bible Belt area. So me being Mormon was very much judged because of that. I was always told, you're not going to go to the Pearly Gates or whatever. I'm not religious anymore.
- [04:19]
Kit
Also. Kit, is there any way that you can kind of explain. Explain to us, like, what it is growing up to, like, what it is to be Mormon and how it was growing up for you? I know you said you don't remember much, but just like, for people that don't kind of have an understanding. Exactly.
- [04:32]
Kristen
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I actually come from. I'm actually related to the founder of the church. So he's like my. His uncle was my great, great, whatever, grandfather. He's like my eighth cousin or something. And that was something that I took so much pride in. I was like, I am related to the founder of the Mormon Church. So I am going to make sure that I live, like, completely dedicated to the church. That was like, my. My goal. But my parents were inactive whenever we moved to North Carolina, they stopped going, but my grandma kept taking me every single Sunday. But she passed away when I was 8. My grandma was like, my safe place. And like, I would go over to my grandma's house all the time. And I don't have a lot of memories, even at my own home, to be honest. Like, I. But I remember some things over at my grandma's house. I remember a lot of outdoor things, like whenever I would go outdoors. But anyway, so she would take me to church. And then when she passed away, when I was 8, she passed away from breast cancer. And I was actually there the last few weeks that she died. I was helping my grandpa take care of her, feeding her tapioca pudding. That smell still, like, reminds me of her so much, but. And she did have a lot of memories, but I remember she always called me Christy. So there was one time she was like, not vocal whatsoever, but she woke up one day and was like, hey, Christy. And it just like, made me so emotional. She was my person. She was like my emotional connection, because I didn't feel like I had any emotional connection. But then she passed away when I was 8. So I stopped going to church for a little bit. But basically, the Mormon religion is. It's very Christian. Like, it's based off of Christianity. They're a lot like Catholics, to be honest. In a sense, very organized. We. The difference is that we believe. They believe that there is a prophet today on earth that is a spokesperson for God. So it's like we have a prophet. I can't think of his name right now, but. But there is someone that always gives us insights on how we're supposed to live. It's very strict, like, huge rules. No drinking coffee, no alcohol, anything like that. Like cussing. Like, every. Every single little tiny thing that a normal person might do is very much judged.
- [06:53]
Kit
And then. Can it be multiple wives as well? Or is that kind of like an old thing?
- [06:58]
Kristen
That was in the beginning of the church. So when Joseph Smith, the. The thing with him is he. So he was 14 years old. The story. I got to think it back to the actual story that I used to believe in and not the one that I know now, but they kept a of secrets from us as members for a very long time. So we didn't know a lot about a lot of the wives that he had. But they. So he basically found gold plates buried. He was like a. He would go hunting for treasure, and he found these gold plates in the ground, and they. They had writing on it, and he transcribed it and it became the Book of Mormon. And one thing that he did was during that time, he was trying to find faith. And all these different churches, like, he would go to, like, I don't know, all the different types of Christian churches. I can't think of them all right now, but. And he just didn't feel like any of them are right. So he prayed to God and was like, okay, so which one is the correct church? And then when he was, he went out to the woods to go do this, like, in this grove. And then all of a sudden, there was a light that beamed over top of him, and there was two, like, two beings there. And one of them was like, this is my son. Hear him. So then. And it was supposed to be Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, because we believe that they're all separate, like the Holy Ghost and Jesus and God were all separate beings and not like the Holy Trinity, like a lot of Christians believe.
- [08:30]
Kit
Yeah.
- [08:31]
Kristen
But so Christ, his Persona or whatever, told him that none of these churches, that they all. They all speak, they all have some truths, but not the full truth, not the full gospel. So these two persons basically told him, none of them are true. You need to create your own religion. So he grabbed the tablets and he had other people help him and transcribed it, and it became the Book of Mormon. He created his own. His own gospel. And it started like, Kirkland, Ohio or something like that. And then they had to. They were getting a lot of backlash as he started getting older and started getting all these people to join the church and stuff. And plural marriage wasn't a thing yet.
- [09:15]
Kit
Okay.
- [09:15]
Kristen
So he got married to Emma Smith and found his following. And then he. Then they started because of all the hate and everything from all the other religions, from him creating a new one. He left there and start. That's why they started trekking to Utah. So it's like they started. I don't know, they went through, like, so much bad weather and just all this stuff and just tried to trek and lots of lives were lost, and. But then eventually he got a calling that he was supposed to take on more wives. And now I know that basically he told his wife Emma that God told me that I have to have more wives to live the gospel. So you have to accept it. You have to be okay with it. So what ended up happening? And this stuff is not taught to the members, really. Like, we're told not to watch anything outside of the church. Be careful. Who you communicate with is very much, like, boxed in. So he ended up taking on more wives and they did not tell us that he started taking on child wives. So it's like he took on. I think his youngest was 14. I think he had six. I could be totally wrong, but six children, wives. He started taking wives from other men and just, you know, living all happy.
- [10:38]
Kit
Yeah.
- [10:38]
Kristen
With this polygamy. And it was a big thing for a while because what they told us was they had to do plural wives because a lot of the men were being murdered or killed off because of their beliefs. And women with these kids needed help. So all these men just, you know, they just took on these wives because they. All these women just needed their help and they needed. It's very much controlled by man. It's very misogynistic.
- [11:06]
Kit
Okay.
- [11:07]
Kristen
So eventually. So that's. So it's not a thing. Now there's like a falling out of the Mormon Church. It's called the flds. That still does plural marriage. That's. I'm pretty sure is. I don't know if they're still. I think they're.
- [11:24]
Kit
I was watching a documentary on that.
- [11:26]
Kristen
Yeah. I think they're like coming in there and putting a stop to it or something like that, or trying to. But everything is very much controlled for them too. But it's not nearly as big. The Mormon Church, like grew there. There's like over 10 million, I think it was, last time I heard, 17 million or so people worldwide. So, like, the church grew big and they're like a billion dollar organization, basically. So. So, yeah, plural marriage became a thing. But then eventually they started getting backlash about the plural marriage. So they had to. Because of the US and everything, they had to cut it back. So it's not a thing anymore. However, people still, you know, think that sometimes, but.
- [12:05]
Kit
Okay.
- [12:06]
Kristen
But it's not allowed now. But it was back then. So it's. It's very like. It's. It's beautiful from the, like whenever you're living it. And the teachings are amazing. It's all about family. It's all about if you live a worthy life, then you get to spend eternity with your family. Because what happens is you go to a temple and you can become sealed to your family and you are placed in the celestial kingdom and you get to become your own God and you get to create your own planets and have your own children, spirit children that you can put on Earth. So it's like very. It's. Now that I'm on the outside, it's. It's interesting. Yeah. But I. I truly believed it because I was so big on family. Family was huge to me since my parents didn't go to church. And I love the church. And it was my grandma's faith. She was actually Catholic, but she joined the church because my grandpa is related to the Smiths and stuff. So she joined the church and I was. So I didn't. The age of baptism is eight years old normally. But because my parents were inactive, I didn't get baptized till 11 because I told them. I was like, look, I want. I want to get baptized. I want to join the church. You know, you guys know, I go, so. So I had a really cute missionary baptized me, you know, at 11. But. And I loved the church. Like, I was. It was a huge part of who I was. It was huge part of, like, my daily thoughts. I would. And it started out with. After my grandma died. I was praying, but I was talking to my grandma.
- [13:39]
Kit
Yeah.
- [13:40]
Kristen
So it's like, I never prayed before then, really. But I was talking to my grandma. So I was like, this is how I'm going to see my grandma again. Because she was my person. So I had to be completely active so I could see her again. And is what my little girl brain was telling me. And purity culture is very big in the church, obviously, so. And one thing that they like to do is marry young, get married super young, have kids super young, because that's like, what God wants us to do. Have as many kids as you can. So I got baptized and that was. Yeah, at 11 and. But I had, like, boys that were always interested in me. Like, my neighbor that I had mentioned, her older brother. That was the first time that I was kind of. He was like, my first kiss. And there was a time that I told my sister and my friend, like, oh, yeah, I had my first kiss. And they're like, oh, yeah, Prove it. So we. There was one night that I went over to her house and we were in his room and they were like, well, we dare you. We were playing like theirs. And they were. So. They wanted to see us kiss. So we did. And then that night after they fell asleep, that was the first time that, like, I was touched in that kind of way that I remember. And there was a time that he had. Or that night he had tried to put his hands down my pants. And I didn't know what to do. Like, I completely froze. My entire body froze. And I didn't know what to say, what to do, how to act. And. And then he was like, is this okay? And I'm so grateful that he asked me that because I was like, And I didn't even hear what he said. I just automatically said no. And he stopped. So I was grateful for that. And let's rewind one year because actually his uncle, a year before I had went up to their house and he was there and, and this, a lot of this comes into play because of my inability to say no to people whenever I am being sexually abused. So there was a time that I, that I went to go visit and his uncle was there. And I think it was the first time that I met his uncle, but he was like really friendly and everything. And then he came back to my friend Jackie's room and his daughter was there and he like put me on his lap and put his hand up my shirt and looked at his daughter and was like, this is my girl now. And that was like what? Like that was weird to me. And I, I didn't know what to think or what to expect or anything. I was just like, I was just frozen. So every single time something like that would happen to me, I would just completely freeze and just allow whatever to happen to me because I didn't know how to stop it. I was a child and this, this was a grown ass man. So he was probably in his 30s or something. But. And there was another time that I went over to their house and that night I don't remember anything, I don't think he did anything. But honestly I don't have any memories of that time. So this whole like I feel like predatory pedophile, pedophilia type behavior is huge. Where I grew up, it's everywhere. Being sexual, sexualized at a very young age is still a thing to that to this day there. Like my little niece lives there and I just, from the things that she tells me, everybody grows up so early there and it's so sad because nobody can just remain children. And girls are just automatically as soon as, I mean honestly, even as soon, even before the age of eight, they're like sexualized there. And it's, it's everywhere. There's so many people that are on the, that are on the list of being pedophiles. So it's just not a great place to raise kids. And even in elementary school I remember all the boys like wanting to pull my dress up when I was in second grade and like everything is so sexualized for children there. It's so sad. So you just kind of get used to it. It becomes your normal. Like the way that the older people will flirt with the little girls, it's so normal. It's normalized. And none of us realized or recognize that we just are living our lives and growing up too soon, especially the girls, while the. The men are all, you know, just. And I'm not like, trying to say the all men, you know, I know that's a huge thing, but it's.
- [18:23]
Kit
That's just what you experience.
- [18:25]
Kristen
Yeah, but. So my dad always lived somewhere. He. He was with us for a while until I was about 8, and then he moved away to go work. And I didn't really see my dad that often after that. And I don't remember much during before that time period. So it was just my mom and five kids, basically. So she was doing the best that she could, to be perfectly honest. Like, she would take us on vacations, but she kind of let us do our own thing. And she would work, and we would. We would go to the pool by ourselves at a very young age. We would go walking all over town at a young age. And there was even, like, this preacher that ran this pool that was close to us where she allowed me and my friend, who was only 11 at the time, to go camping with this person. And he would just tell us ghost stories or whatever, but he would also let us spend the night at our house, and we would go swimming in his little pool that he had. And, you know, he didn't do anything. But now that I'm an adult, I'm like, why in the world is anybody allowing children to just be at some man's house who they don't know? Because now I recognize he was just, like, probably sitting up there watching us or something. You know, it's just just. It's just really. It just. It just creeps me out now that I think about, because it was fun. Me and my friend Jackie had so much fun going to these places, going camping. And he took us to Sliding Rock. It's a really cool place.
- [19:59]
Kit
You never know. Yeah, I feel like you can't be too careful and cautious.
- [20:03]
Kristen
Exactly. So my mom was okay with me going wherever I wanted. She was okay with me dating at whatever age. And so whenever I was 12, I started. I started becoming, like. At 11, I. I got baptized, but I wasn't completely active in the church still. But then there was a neighbor that would come over to pick me up on Sundays because the thing was, I didn't have a ride to church. So she started coming to pick me up and taking me all the time. And a lot of the teachers that taught me in church were older men. And I loved them all. They Were all just so sweet and so nice to me. So I just felt comfortable around older men a lot of the time. And I remember there was one time at 12 years old, you joined the youth group, basically. So you get to do all these fun things. They'll throw dances. And I remember one of the older men telling me that they had a. They had a mutual. With all of the boys, and they were like. The older men asked them, like, well, which one of the young women do you like? And this older man came to me and said, yeah. I asked them this question, and all the boys said, you. And this made me feel so good about myself, you know, I'm like, oh, wow, that's so cool. Okay, I'm so cool. And I was just weird that he even came to me to tell me that at such a young age, you know?
- [21:40]
Kit
Right.
- [21:41]
Kristen
So there's just so much of that stuff there. And.
- [21:44]
Kit
And I think it goes back to what you said of almost being sexualized at such a young age. And it becomes like, you're normal. It gives you. From such a young age. It gives you, like, that sense of validation that a child shouldn't need in that way. You know what I mean? Like being so young.
- [22:01]
Kristen
Exactly.
- [22:02]
Kit
Yeah.
- [22:03]
Kristen
Yeah. So. And even, like, I'm not saying anything about my dad necessarily, but even he was, like, overly friendly and would like, every single friend that I would ever. My older sister, because he wasn't really around whenever I had friends older. But he would always, like, come up with little nicknames for them or something. And I just thought it was a good dad. And maybe it was, I don't know.
- [22:25]
Kit
But looking back on it, you start to, like, question.
- [22:29]
Kristen
Yeah. Like, seeing what he did and how he treated people, and knowing what I know now, I'm just kind of like. I'm just kind of. I don't trust very many people anymore.
- [22:38]
Kit
And I think the thing is, too. And I tell people this all the time, you know, when you have a gut feeling, whether it was then, whether it's now, you trust it. And that's not to say. It's not to, like, point fingers or to blame, but it's more so like. Like how you said when you reflect and you look back in these things that you look at now, kind of it makes you realize how creepy and how not normal they were. Like, I agree with you. You know what I mean? Like, you don't have to explain that. And this is me just saying in general, like, you don't have to explain or validate that to anybody. Like, if that is how you feel and the feeling you get, it's better to trust that and be like, yeah, that wasn't normal. And I wouldn't want that for my younger self or for my children.
- [23:19]
Kristen
Exactly. And that's, that's like the thing, like now that I understand and see what I see now, it's like if there is an adult that is giving too much attention to your child, then you need to be looking at them. Like you need to see that as a red flag. And there's so many parents that just allow like their friends to come in and be around their children and because they trust them or whatever. But if they, they're paying too much attention to your child, like there is no reason why a grown ass man should be paying so much attention to a little girl, in my opinion. I don't care who you are at this point. I'm, I'm at that point in my life. Right. So. And I didn't know that or recognize that until just a few years ago because I was, you know, in situations where I was allowing people that were like that to do that too. And it, I, because it was my normal, it was normal. So. But my awareness is much bigger now.
- [24:22]
Kit
Yeah.
- [24:23]
Kristen
So my childhood is very scattered and all over the place because like I said, I don't have that many memories of a lot of it. I barely even remember my home. My mom still lives in the same house, but it looks different now. So it's weird. But when I was, let's say so, I started dating quite like different boys here and there. And every single time I would date one, they would put their hand up my shirt. I would say nothing. I would freeze. I would constantly freeze. And it would make me so mad because in my head I was screaming like, don't touch me, don't touch me. But I would just sit there and be like, okay. And they just assumed that I was okay with it, but I wasn't. And I didn't know how to express myself. And that's been like my entire life. And it took me a long time to figure that out. So at the age of 13, I was dating a boy in eighth grade for six months. And I was in love with him. He was going to be the love of my life. I was so going to marry this, this, this guy. Yeah. So. But there was a time that he, he had taken advantage of that and he had put his hands down my pants and I had to go tell my bishop. Because that's one thing. Like if you do something before marriage, you have to go to your bishop. If you are in the youth group, you have to go to your bishop and you have to tell them what happened. So this happened to me and we were getting ready for a temple trip. You can go to the temple. I think they allow 12 to 17 year olds go to the temple to do baptism for the dead. And basically what that is is you go in and you bring names from your genealogy, from your ancestry. Like, Mormon church is huge on answer. They probably own most of the like, like family tree and all those things because they're so big in genealogy. But you take in people that you're related to and if they were not baptized into the church, you get to stand in their place in proxy and be baptized in the water in their name. And that was so big for me going to the temple. I don't know if you've ever seen a Mormon temple, but they are beautiful. They are like, they spend millions and millions, I don't even know how much on them. They're like big castles, basically. So I was. That was like my dream to go to a temple. And then this happened. So I had to go to my bishop and I had to tell him like we were doing the interview to be able to go do the baptisms for the dead. And he told me he wanted me to give every single little detail of what happened. And I was in a room with this older man, he was probably 50 or so, in his 50s. I was in a room by myself and I have to explain what happened to me to this older man. And he tells me, well, you don't get to go to the temple because this happened to you. And I'm like, but I didn't even want it to happen to me. Like, why don't. Why am I being punished? It's like, you should have stopped. You should stop it before it happened. And it caused so much toxic shame inside of me that. To the point where I just like hated who I was for a while because it was my dream to go. And it was like it was just stolen from me just like that. And, and it was devastating to me. And, and looking back now, I'm like, why in the world was this old man able to hear details about what was going on with me sexually? Because that's just weird. But it really affected me in a very negative way. And purity culture was so big that, you know, don't do this. Don't even be in the same room with another boy. But my mom was allowing anything, basically another boyfriend that I Had wanted me to go camping with him. And I told my mom, like, I don't want to go. I don't want to go camping with him. Because I was afraid something would happen. I wouldn't be able to stop it. And so I was like, his mom's gonna call you, so tell him that I can't go. And it was during a Fourth of July. She told me. She was like, okay, yeah, I'll tell them. No, a mom calls. My mom's on the phone with him or with her with his mom. And she was like, oh, yeah, she could go. She's available. And I'm just like. I started crying when she got off the phone. I was like, mom, I told you I don't want to go. Tell them, no, I don't want to go. And I just started crying. And so she had to call them back and be like, actually, I need her help with. So I ended up not going on that. But the fact that she just was okay after I told her I didn't want to. And it just really got to me. Yeah. After I had broken up with my. With one of those boyfriends, my second husband came into the. Well, he was. He was always around because he was always at my house, but. And he was 16 at the time. I was 13. So that's when we started dating for that week. And I told him that we couldn't because of my brother. And after that, like, he was one of my best friends. And he wouldn't talk to me for several months after that. So it's kind of like a silent treatment, I guess.
- [29:45]
Kit
Was his family religious as well?
- [29:47]
Kristen
They were very Baptist. He was very Baptist. He was very much into purity culture, like in the Southern Baptist way. So he was one who was like, I can't have sex before marriage. And. And that's something that he still kind of regrets to this day. I don't know. But. So it was really devastating to me whenever he suddenly became not my friend anymore because he was one of my closest friends. And we grew up side by side, basically. And it broke my heart because he was my good friend. But then I think it was like, six months where he wouldn't talk to me. And. But on my 14th birthday, he came back around, and we went to one of my other brother's friends to the pool, and he started finally talking to me. He was kind of rude at first, but then he was like, okay, whatever, you know, let's be friends again. And he came in strong with. I like. With telling me about all the different girls that he liked and I guess trying to make me jealous in some kind of way. So I'm 14 at this time, and still I dated a few boys here and there, but nothing serious. Well, we became really close friends. Like, again, we actually. I think this is when we really became best friends. But it was always like, when you date someone, tell me, you know, all of the details about what you guys do or whatever. And he just wanted all the information. And he was giving me all the information that he was doing with his girlfriends. And he just, like, I swear, every single girl. But we went to different high schools he was in. We went to, like, rivalry type high schools, but we were neighbors. I guess his mom put him in the school where. Where she was a cop at. She was a cop in a certain town. So she. He went to school there. So about six months into us building this friendship and everything, there was even a time where he transferred over to my high school for me so that he can be closer to me. And there was this one guy, like, senior that I liked, and he went and told the senior that I liked him. And. And so we were just like, always talking about the boys that we liked or whatever. But at some point I started being like, well, you know, why don't you like me anymore? What the heck, man? I thought you liked me. I thought we were gonna get married someday. So it was kind of weird that I started feeling that way because I had broken it off. But I was a freaking child. I shouldn't have even been dating. All these people shouldn't been interested in boys. So I think it was. I was probably about 14 and 7 months or something. He invited a friend over from his high school over, who was also a senior. And he was 18 and my friend was 17 at this time. He brought him over to my house and we had a pool table. So we always had. We. We had all the kids come over to our house. He brought him over, and I guess before he came, he had bought him like a Burger King Burger for $10 or something. So he was like, I know this really cool girl, and if I set you up with her, then can we just drop the $10 and I don't have to pay you back? And he's. And his friend's like, yeah, sure, cool, or whatever. So that he came over to my house and then. And I didn't know that he was trying to set me up with his friend at this time. But, you know, he was cute. He had long. My first husband. This ended up being my first husband, he had very long bleached blonde hair that, and he was, he was cute and he was older, so that was so exciting, you know, an 18 year old and I'm 14 and we hit it off. So I started dating this guy and he is, I mean, he's nice in the beginning, you know, super, super cool. And I, that was one thing that I told him, like, look, I'm waiting until I'm married to have sex. I'm, I'm still too young, like I'm way too young to be having sex. And he was like, oh yeah, I respect that. That's cool. You know, he had, he had been with somebody once before and was totally okay with it, he said. But within a month of us, even like, I swear it was like every week he would be like, so you're to have sex yet? And I'm like, no. And it was constant, like the pressure. Yeah, it was constant. And then it become, started becoming like every day. Like, so you're to have sex, you're ready to have sex? And I'm like, no, I'm not ready. I'm not ready. I don't want to do this. But then there was a time that like, we were making out and we had been dating for I think two months at this time, and we were making out and I was wearing a dress and I just lost my words. I had no voice, I couldn't stop it. And he was just like, I'm just going to, you know, put the tip in and that's it. And, and I was just like, couldn't stop it. And that's when I lost my virginity to this man. And that's when I decided, well, I have to marry him because I am supposed to be with one man my entire life. I have to marry this man because my body's for one person, the love of my life. And this is apparently the love of my life now. Yeah, that's what my, my child brain was telling me. And shortly after that, my mom. I didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell anybody. I was really ashamed because of what my, my bishop had told me. And I had even told my boyfriend at this time, like after it happened twice, I was like, I don't, I don't want to be doing this. Like, I don't, I don't want to be, I don't want to be doing this. And he was like, well, it's too late, we already have, so we have to continue. Like, if you just stop now, then, then we're gonna have to break up.
- [35:28]
Kit
And did you end up telling the bishop that you did that?
- [35:31]
Kristen
No, I didn't. No. I was. I was too scared. Yeah, I just, like, I'm not gonna go get interviewed to go to the temple. I'm not worthy enough to go to the temple. I am a worthless piece of trash now. I am a worthless piece of gum. Because one thing that in young women's. They teach you, like, this is one of the lessons that they will give you in church. Like, do you see this cupcake? And we're like, yeah, it looks delicious. And they're like, well, I'd like, would you eat it? Like, yeah, absolutely. And then they lick the frosting off. And then they're like, would you eat it now? And we're like, no, that's gross. I'm like, well, that's what happens when you have sex. You become, like, tainted. You become dirty. You become. So that's. I took that very deeply. Like, internally. I am just this terrible bad person. I'm so dirty. I'm. I'm disgusting. I'm not worthy. I. You know, I. I started getting to the point to where I just hated who I was. And he was still forcing me. And I didn't see it as rape at that time, because I felt like I had a choice, even though I didn't. But it's like I couldn't stop it. So I just, like, dissociated, because that was my thing. Whenever things get hard, I just dissociate from my emotions. So I just, like, pretend, like, to my family that I'm perfect, I'm great, I'm living, I'm happy. You know, I got this boyfriend. He's cool or whatever, and I'm totally happy. So it's like my family doesn't even see my struggle necessarily. But honestly, thinking back, I don't know how they didn't see that I was struggling because I had isolated. I was in my room constantly when I used to be active and went everywhere, and suddenly I'm just, like, become a shell. I become a shell. So whenever I'm 15, my mom lets him move into our house. And he's upstairs. Like, he has a room. My mom set it up to where there was a bed in there, and she put a curtain up. It was in the dining room area. So he slept up there, and he would play video games. He had graduated from high school at this point, and he would sit there and play games all day long. Wouldn't work or anything, but he just lived there. And I slept Downstairs in my room. But every single night he would come down to my room and I would just wait for those cold hands. Every single night, like he was freezing every single time because we didn't have, we just had like a fireplace or something. So he was always cold. But he would always come down to the room and just do whatever he wanted to me in the middle of the night. Just every night basically. So it's like for a long time that was every night of my life. The entire time I was 15, that was every night of my life.
- [38:19]
Kit
And, and why did he move in?
- [38:22]
Kristen
Because of my mom, because he was my boyfriend. So my mom let him. Okay.
- [38:25]
Kit
And did. So did he end up asking and that's why or like how did that, how did it get to that point?
- [38:31]
Kristen
Do you remember? You know, I don't even know. I think he just started coming over and staying there. My mom just let anybody come and say she was just okay with all of our friends coming over and being there all the time. So I think he just didn't one day moved in. And that was one thing. Like when we first started dating and he introduced me to his mom the first time, he was like, don't tell her how old you are. And I'm like, well why, why does it matter that I'm 14, you know, and that was kind of. That should have been a red flag for me. But you know, I didn't know what red flags were back then. They weren't well known. So I was just not okay. And I started self harming and I was mentally gone. I was still doing my schoolwork, but like even my French teacher would let me sleep at my desk because I wasn't sleeping. Because he would come in the middle of the night and I would be awake half the night. So it's like I was just in, I was on autopilot and I don't know how. And I have four siblings. My sister didn't live there at the time. She had already grown out or gotten married and everything. But I had had three siblings that lived there and my mom and my parents. I guess during this time I think one reason why my mom was just like whatever is when I was 15, she decided she was going to divorce my husband. My husband, oh my God, my dad. And they had been married for 24 years. And it was very unexpected, even though it shouldn't have been because they really weren't even living together. They weren't together much at all, to be honest. And she just didn't seem like she was in love with him anymore. She was raising five kids by herself. He was never there. She, if he did come, he would complain about the mess because she was supposed to make it perfect. That was one thing that my dad loved to tell me, like, you're gonna be a great wife. You're gonna, you know, keep the house clean, you're gonna do this, you're gonna like, tell me exactly how I needed to be the per wife. And that stuff was ingrained in me. Like, I have to be the perfect wife. I have to do and follow whatever my husband says, because that's what the priesthood says in the church. You have to, you have to be exactly what your husband needs or wants you to be, basically. So she was going through her own divorce and her own traumas, but she was very silent about it. And she didn't like, communicate like what she was feeling, what she was going through. I think she was very dissociated too. I think something. She had lost her mom and she was going through her own issues and leaving my dad after 24 years. She was just kind of in her own headspace. And that's when chat rooms and the Internet became available. I was, I was born 1982. So that's when Internet became popular. And she started getting on chat rooms and she was talking to like, she would meet all kinds of people on there. And there was even a time that she posted my older sister's senior picture and was pretending to be my older sister for a while because she's like, well, I'm just trying to find. Or I'm just trying to find your sister a boyfriend. And, and I just thought that was weird. I'm like, but why are you pretending to be her? This is weird. But she was, she was just meeting. She was just not meeting, but she was talking to all these people and what she would tell me, like, she would talk about them all the time to me. And she would be like, oh, this person's telling me this and this. And they're just like my kids, where I can be there for them because they're going through so much. Meanwhile, I'm being raped downstairs every single night while she's helping these other kids that don't even live in her home. And it ended up being that she, like, she decided that she wanted to go on a one month trip. And this was right before I turned 16. She wanted to take all of us, all of us five kids to travel the United States for one month. So we all got in this big van and my, my Older brother brought his girlfriend and we. And my. My boyfriend didn't come with us. And that was really hard for me because I'm like, I have to. I, you know, he's gonna cheat on me. And that was another thing. Like, he did actually cheat on me once. And I didn't know and I didn't believe it. Like, this, this. This. This older girl came to my high school and tried to tell me that he had cheated on her with me, which she actually gave him chlamydia. And I ended up getting it, but I didn't know that, like, you know, and he. Yeah, that was. I. I didn't know until after we even got divorced that he had cheated on me during that time. So it's like he cheated on me before we even got married. But. So, yeah, my mom wanted to do this one month trip, and all five of us kids came with one of my boys, my brother's girlfriends. And it was hard for me because I. Because, like, he. My. My boyfriend had a very strict thing, like, you have to call me at this time. So I'm like, mom, we gotta go to payphone or something at this time. No cell phones at this time. So I was like, we have to stop at payphone so that I can call him because, you know, he's. He needs me to call him, so I have to do it. Like, she should have seen how toxic this relationship was, and she should have been there to support me and help me and get in my head and tell me this isn't healthy, this isn't okay. But I didn't have that safe space, and I didn't feel like I could go to her and tell her what was going on because she was going through her own traumas, her own life, her own situation. So I just felt very alone. And I was also ashamed of what was going on. I was embarrassed. I felt like it was my fault because my boyfriend told me it was my fault. Like, well, you. You have to do it. You have to do it now. So. And if I didn't, then I was just a terrible girlfriend and not worthy to be his girlfriend anymore. And. And on this one month trip, like, it was good the first few weeks, but I had a journal that I was keeping, and my sister decided, which. She's my oldest sister, and she's the one who would have stopped this if she could have. But she lived further away. But she. She found my journal because she could see that I wasn't doing okay. And she had read in there that it was obvious that I was writing that I was being forced to have sex with this person. And she went to my mom and told my mom what was going on. And I got really mad when I found out she had read my, my Private Journal. We were in Las Vegas at this time. I got really upset, so I ran out of the hotel room and I like ran down to the street in Las Vegas. And I was standing there as this 15 year old girl crying. And this old, older, homeless looking guy comes up to me and is like, hey, are you okay? And I'm like, I'm fine. He's like, do you know where your parents are? I'm like, oh, they're that way. And he's like, well, let me take you to them. And I just like my body automatically started moving because I felt scared. And that's one thing that I realize now is that when I'm scared, I just follow. Like it's, it's a, it's, it's a freeze and fawn thing. So it's like I freeze for a second and then I start fawning because I'm like, I don't know what to do, but to do whatever this person is telling me to do. And that's like, I feel like that was ingrained in me very young, but I don't have those memories. Like when before the age of four. And my boyfriend at that time was keeping that mindset going where I had to follow, I had to do whatever somebody was telling me to do or, you know, I was doing it wrong. So I followed this guy and we walked through the hotel room. We walked through like a, we walked through a casino. And I was just following along, like terrified, like, what am I supposed to do? And then we walked through the casino where my parents were at. And I'm like, well, where are we going? My parents are that way. And I'm just following along like a lost little dog, like, okay, let's go, let's. We got this. And then all of a sudden I hear a honk and I'm like, okay, what's that? It scared me. And my sister, one of my sisters jumps out of the van, runs over to me and she's got like this beautiful southern accent. My sister does. Oh my God, it's amazing. But she goes over to, she runs over to me, she's like, kristin, where are you going? And I'm like, I'm going to find you guys. And she's like, get in the car now. And that guy's like, oh, you have such a beautiful Accent and so anyway, my sister grabbed my arm and like pulled me back into the car. So it's a good thing that they were driving down the strip looking for me. And they pulled me back into the car and I just didn't leave the car again. Like we went to Yellowstone Park. I didn't even get to see Old Faithful because I was so stubborn. And I just didn't want to leave my car because I was scared at that point. I'm just like, I don't. I just, I'm just gonna sit here. There was a TV in the car, so I just sat there and watched it. And my sister, my oldest sister had a romance book, so I read a romance books and I just kind of stayed to myself the rest of the trip. But my sister had told my mom about my journal and what I had put in there. So when we get back from the trip a week later, after the trip, my mom pulls me aside and she's like, you know, Kristen, you've been dating your boyfriend for about a year and a half. I think you guys can go ahead and get married. And I'm like, oh, oh. And actually I left that out. He had already proposed to me by the time I was 14. Like. And I'm like, well, we're at least engaged, so you know, I guess.
- [48:20]
Kit
And this was the same. Okay, hold on, backtrack for me. So you met him, right? Because you met him when you were 14?
- [48:28]
Kristen
Yeah.
- [48:28]
Kit
And your brother's best friend is who set you guys up?
- [48:32]
Kristen
Yeah.
- [48:32]
Kit
Okay, so he proposed to you back when you were 14?
- [48:36]
Kristen
Yeah.
- [48:36]
Kit
So that whole time you'd been engaged?
- [48:38]
Kristen
Yeah.
- [48:38]
Kit
Okay. And then your mom said now fast, you're. What were you?
- [48:42]
Kristen
I was 15. I was almost 16. Okay. I was like.
- [48:45]
Kit
She said, it's like it's time you guys get married.
- [48:47]
Kristen
Yeah.
- [48:48]
Kit
Did she know that you guys were engaged?
- [48:50]
Kristen
Yeah. Okay. She was, she was okay with it. He actually did it right in front of her, like proposed to me right in front of her as 18 year old proposing to a 14 year old girl. And he was almost 19 at the time too, so.
- [49:02]
Kit
So she says that to you?
- [49:03]
Kristen
Yeah.
- [49:04]
Kit
Okay.
- [49:04]
Kristen
She's like, yeah, you know, it's. It's normal in our religion or whatever. So I think it's okay, it's safe for you guys to go ahead and get married. And, and at this point, like, I'm so upset with my family because my parents are getting divorced. I'm very much alone. I am like literally suffering. I'm self harming. I'm Trying to say a lie because I wanted to commit. I wanted to unlike myself so many times and tried to a few times, but I never told my family about it. You know, they still don't even know to this day what I even lived because I was never open about it. So at this point, I'm just like, wow, okay, I guess you're done raising me. Like, I guess you're done being my mom. Like, you haven't really been there the past two years anyways, so. And I'm like, and I can continue having sex without feeling guilty about it.
- [49:55]
Kit
Yeah.
- [49:55]
Kristen
You know, because by then I was just like, well, whatever. I have to do it anyway, so just perform. That's, like, what I was trained to do, perform however he wanted me to. And it, you know, it got. It was rough a lot of the time. It was. It was scary, but it was my normal. It became my normal and it became my nightly thing. So it's like I was so dissociated from the feelings of what I was going through that I just was existing barely in a very. Just dissociated way. And I was like, okay, yeah, sure, let's get married. And so that's what we start planning. And like, within three weeks, it was almost my 16th birthday. I remember I got married two days after my birthday, like a week before my wedding day. My. My friend who set us up, the one I grew up with, my brother's best friend. Yeah. He decided to kind of step in and be like, whoa, what are you doing? You know, why are you getting married? Or whatever. I thought that this wasn't like. He even admitted later that the reason why he set me up with this. This fool, this my first husband, was because he thought that it was going to be toxic. He knew he was a jerk. He knew that he was, like a lying, manipulative. But he set me up with him because he thought I would have a broken heart and he would be able to pull the pieces together, basically, after I had left him. And one of them, whether it was the. The neighbor that had touched me when I was 11 or my second husband, my brother's best friend had keyed my boyfriend's truck. I don't know which one it was to this day. I think it was the neighbor. But. So, yeah, it was like. It was like this triangle thing just all around me, and I'm just, like, consumed with. I don't even know, just survival. I'm just surviving at this point, and I don't even know how I'm surviving, but so, yeah, she brings it up, and I'm just like, yeah, sure, I'll go ahead and get married. You know, then I can, I can feel like I'm not sinning anymore. I can feel like I'm not a terrible person anymore because I'm a terrible person. I don't deserve to be alive. That's where my brain was at a lot of the time. There was always that voice, those voices in my head telling me, like, don't do it. Don't do it. You know, this is, this is going to be bad. This is going to be ugly. Do not marry him. And so, like, I think it was three days before I got married. The day before my birthday, me and my. My friend, my brother's best friend went walking and he grabbed my hand, and, like, he saw me and he looked at me. He was like, don't do it. Don't go through with him. Don't get married. And I'm like, it's too late. Like, we've already planned it. I've already bought the dress. I would disappoint everybody at this point. Like, I have to do it. Like, I, I, I lost my virginity to this person. I have to marry him. And, you know, he's like, he was, he, he seemed heartbroken. Like, he was just like, but I thought me and you were gonna, you know, be it. I thought we were gonna be together. I thought, you know, we were soulmates. And he had even put in his Bible, like, there's a quote in the Bible that says something like, your wife being pure or whatever. And he had wrote my name on it, but then he crossed it out and wrote his girlfriend's name. But so, yeah, he was begging me not to get married. And I told him I didn't have a choice at this point. I had to get married. I had to follow through with it. So I did. And two days after my 16th birthday, I got married. And we had moved in with his mom, and he had a brother and a sister, and I had gotten my license. A little bit after I had gotten married, I hadn't even had my license yet, and I had gotten a marriage certificate. And my dad is actually the one who drove me to the courthouse to sign my papers. Because he's just like, well, if this is really what you want to do. Like, he didn't step in and be like, what's going on? Why are you doing this? He was just like, okay. Well, you know, he was also going through his own stuff. And he was always saying my mom was crazy. And my mom was this. And just making me really resent my mom at that point where I'm just like put. I think feel like I put all the blame on her and didn't put any on my dad whatsoever. So. And she was just constantly saying your mom's crazy or whatever. You don't want to be like her whenever you grow up. And. And that was like something that was a paranoia. I mean, like, oh God, I don't want to be crazy like my mom. But yet my boyfriend was constantly telling me I was crazy when I tried to share my feelings and. And that started, you know, young. So. So yeah, I get married and I continue with school. I'm not pregnant or anything. You know, we were very careful about that. I remember at church one time after we were married, I got kicked out of this. This broke my heart because I was in young women's and you're supposed to stay in young women's and it's like the youth group there is so fun because we do so many fun things. We have dances and, and we get to participate with all these things. I got kicked out whenever I got married, so I wasn't allowed to be in young women's anymore. That broke my heart. But I got to hang out with college age kids so that was kind of cool because I grew up so fast.
- [55:28]
Kit
Yeah.
- [55:29]
Kristen
So basically I went from my sophomore year of high school to the summertime when I got married and then I go to school as a junior married. And that was just wild. A lot of my friends and I lost a lot of friends during this time because I was like, he was isolating me at this point. So a lot of my friends just kind of disappeared. I didn't talk to my even siblings that much. So I didn't really have anybody except for my husband at that time. So within like I think it was six months of being married, there was a time that I lost my keys and he was yelling at me a lot like, you're so stupid. I can't believe you lost your keys. You're an idiot. And that was the first time that he had punched me. So that's when it started getting physical. It hadn't been like physical abuse yet. It was just like manipulation, gaslighting, the sexual abuse and all that. But then it became physical all of a sudden. And that's like when things I guess kind of started becoming real. But like it kind of woke me up a little bit. Like, what the heck? That wasn't cool. The other stuff was harder for me to See, I just dissociated from it. But this was like, what the heck, man? That wasn't cool. So I finished school. He ended up moving in with his dad whenever my senior year of high school. A lot of it's kind of a blur to be honest, being married to him. But he ended up moving in with his dad three hours away. And I stayed back and moved in with my dad for a few months and we lived apart. And then I graduated from high school and then I moved to Charlotte where he had moved to. And that's whenever like the day, pretty much the day that I moved over there is when I got pregnant. I was 17. So I got pregnant with my first child at 17. And at this point I'm still not doing okay, but I can go back to church again. So I at least had my faith again because I wasn't going to church anymore because I was like, I'm not living a worthy life. I don't deserve to go to church. I'm not worthy enough. And but when I got pregnant with my son, like my outlook on life completely changed. Like I had a reason to live at that point and I had a, I had a reason to fight. I had, I had like, I had a purpose. And that's when I stopped self harming and thinking about, you know, unliving and everything because he gave me purpose like my son gave me purpose. So I was barely 18 whenever I had him, but it was still very toxic. And because at this point we were living alone, the physical abuse got really bad. Where he would like start even while I was pregnant with my son, he would like, like knock my head into a window or knock me to the ground and kick me in the side. And he was very addicted to porn. So usually he would watch porn and rape me afterwards. And it was usually like pretty bad. And then, or he would beat me and then rape me. It was like, like he just got off on that kind of stuff. And that was like a few years of my life. And then I think after I had my son, six months later I'm pregnant again. So that's when I got pregnant with my daughter. And I was 19 when I had her. And I started like seeing even the way that he was treating like my son. My son had a broken car and he went over to his dad like, hey, can you fix her? Or I couldn't fix it. So I asked him to go ask his dad. And his dad was always just playing video games and just kind of ignoring, ignoring us. He didn't give A crap about us, basically. So I sent him over there to fix the car, and he had caused his dad to die in his game. And he started yelling at my son, and that just, like, send me over the edge. I'm like, you aren't gonna treat my child that way. That's not okay. And then with my daughter, I'm like, I can't keep my daughter in this because I don't want her to think that this is okay. And at that point, I'm on message boards on baby center. I'm. And talking to other people that belong to the church, but they live far away. And I'm like, putting like, hey, I'm terrified for my life. My husband's starting to kill me a lot. And, you know, just like. But what happened was somebody had found where I live or, like, the ward that I was in, the church that I was in. And they had contacted them and told them that, like, hey, this person is afraid. So they had contacted my dad, and my dad had called and was like, kristen, are you okay over there? And I'm like, I'm fine. I'm fine. And my car was broken down. I was like, well, my car's broken, so I can't go anywhere, and I'm kind of stuck. And he's like, oh, well, let me fix your car. And that's like, when I packed up my car one day and left. And I was even at. Like, I even left because he had an affair. He had. I had found out, or he admitted to me that he had an affair, and I was. And that's, like. Sent me over the edge. I'm like, well, what the heck? So, like, you do everything else to me. That was the one thing that I didn't think you would do. I didn't think you'd cheat on me, because I didn't even know about the first time. And he did. So I'm like, I'm out. And he was nice about it because he was trying to play nice. So I would come back, you know, and he just let me go. And I moved back in with my parents, and I was 20 at this time. A lot of that is very much a blur. Like, I don't. I don't have the memories. I just remember being. Being quite a bit. And so I got my car fixed and I decided to leave. And whenever I left, I had moved. My. My first friend came back around. My brother's best friend came back around, and, like, he was there to pick up the pieces where I wasn't. Okay. I Was, I was like, he saw that I was struggling and he was there for me during that time. Like he was my protector and even my ex husband, my first ex, would like stalk me and follow me and, and he was still raping me. There was even a time whenever I was started dating my second husband where he was like, you can't, I can't pass you over to him unless you have sex with me first. And so I did like, I was like, okay, well so it's like he would still stalk me and do this. But then my husband came in and protected me and was there for me during that time. And it was like. And even during that marriage, I went through that time being like I married the wrong person. Like he even begged me not to marry him and I still did it. I married the wrong person. Like he was my soulmate, was right in front of me and I picked the wrong person. And I hated myself so much for it. And he came in like this knight in shining armor and I have these two kids and he would. Was always telling my brother that he wanted to date someone with kids. And I'm like, oh, sweet. Because you know, like we were. He, he always like just loved me whenever I was younger and everything. So he, he was really there for me and he was really good with them. Like he was really good with my kids. He played with them and talked to them and just like was the father that they didn't have. He was everything. Like, he was so kind and he was just like my savior at this point. And then so we start dating and it's all the red flags were there. But like I said, I didn't know red flags. And he was my best friend growing up. So you know, we dated for about a year and during that time like he would break up with me and disappear, disappear for a few weeks and go see his ex girlfriend or something and then come back and I was just like in this very low, low point in my life and he was just the only person that seemed like he cared because my parents didn't help me out of that first marriage or anything. Like my. Nobody was there for me during that time. My mom didn't even live there. Whenever I moved back into her house, I was still very much alone. So he was my person and he just kind of took me in and took my kids in and was like everything that I needed in that time. And so we dated for a few years and it was off and on and it was now looking back, very toxic now that I now that I'm more aware of what healthy is. But we ended up getting married. We were both. He's still kind of young. I was 23 when we got married. I think he was 26, so I guess not too young, but still young. Getting married in the Mormon church is like, huge whenever you're young. So we get married and like, and it's great. We. We don't really fight much because I don't really have a voice. I have no boundaries. I, like, I lost all my boundaries long ago, if I even ever had any. So he's just like, has free reign of whatever, and I am just kind of. He's my person. I love him. So we. After two years of being married, he unexpectedly came to me, was like, I just don't feel emotionally connected to you, so we need to get divorced. And this was like two years. And like, we had just gone back from a vacation, a family vacation where it was so much fun. And we, like, went to the beach. We were at Myrtle beach and had a great time there. And then after two years of marriage, and then he suddenly was like, oh, I don't want to be with you anymore. So I'm like, oh, okay. That was devastating. And he had actually joined the church at this point because he wasn't a member of the church. But I was finally active again and he knew that how badly being sealed or being married in the temple for time and all eternity was huge for me. So he ended up joining the church. But yeah, so, like, after two years, he's just like, I'm done. I'm. I want out. So I'm like, oh, okay. And that was devastating. So two months we were separated. Like, we were separated during our second anniversary. And he came back and was like, you know, I made a mistake. I went, I. I slept with my ex girlfriend and same one that I had issues with before. And he never respected the fact that, like, you know, it makes me uncomfortable, it makes me jealous or whatever. Like, he didn't care about my feelings at all. And I just kind of had to. If. If I had an issue with something, it was always my problem and I just need to deal with it type of attitude. And I was just so used to that. And it was my normal. So, you know, I. It was my problem that I. And he would always blame every single time something bad. Like every time I. A negative opinion or. Or trigger or whenever I would have because I had bad PTSD at this point. So if he would trigger that PTSD or that dissociation or something like, that he would blame it on my ex. Like, everything was my. My first husband's fault for 20 years. So he comes back after two months of the separation, and I wasn't going to take him back, but I was. I was going to church, and he had came back and was like, hey, I want to go to church with you. And, you know, he was doing all the right things, saying all the right things. And then he was like, let's. Let's save money so that we can move across country, because we were in North Carolina at this time. So he was like, I want to. I want to go start somewhere new. And this was the way. I was already isolated anyways, even around my family. But this was another way to just isolate me. So we ended up moving to Oregon. We saved up for a year and moved to Oregon. And he was great stepdad to my kids, I felt like. But, you know, I didn't know healthy, and I didn't understand it. And I was very blind and dissociated from so many things that I'm still trying to come to terms with and forgive myself for. It's like 20 years of my life is a blur now that I'm awake and realize how dissociated I was even during this marriage. Because it wasn't physical. His abuse was very psychological. It was very emotional. And I didn't see it. I didn't know it. I didn't understand it. So, you know, even our 10th wedding anniversary, he invited this couple who I didn't even get along with, really, because the wife was constantly messaging my husband and making me feel uncomfortable. I even saw, like, there was one time I decided to read their messages, and he got so mad at me because he watches his computer like a hog. Like, he can. He'll sit at work and he'll have it open, and if anybody touches his computer, he'll see it. Like, he'll see. I. I think he sees the mouse moving something. I don't know. He's really. He's like a computer genius. But, like, he saw that I was trying to read those messages, and one of them was like, she had wrote something like. Like, I had a dream that Kristen. That. That Kristen's trying to beat me up because she thinks that we're having an affair or whatever. And she was like, bitch, I. I don't want your man or something. Just like, the way that they talked about me behind my back was just not okay. So, yeah, it was just a lot of psychological abuse and me just numbing my feelings for A very, very, very long time. I ended up having three more kids within five years of our marriage. I had, I had my son and then two years later I had my twins. So I have five kids now and we're living in Oregon. I'm very isolated. I was going to church still for a long time and then suddenly he decided that he was leaving the church. And that was devastating to me because the church was huge for me. I loved the religion. And it's like when he left the church, he completely changed, but he didn't. He finally was just letting me see who he really was as a person. And he wasn't faking it anymore at this point because he had told me like he never believed in the church. He just was going for me or whatever. But to be honest, I feel like the Mormon church holds a lot of people that are predators and like them young and I think they're just like, I, I feel like now that I'm. Now that I've left the church and I've come out of it and everything, like seeing that they will dip 12 to 17 year old kids in a bath on a pedestal inside the temple by old men, like, I'm just like, this church is. And they're okay with people getting married so young. I just feel like it's so sex trafficking and all of it is just. I just have a completely different view of that religion. But when he left, it devastated me. And he was, it got to the point where he was very, very psychologically abusing me at that point and just like, just making me feel stupid for still believing in it. And eventually I stopped going at some point and I was, I started when my twins and my, when they were young, I started posting on YouTube. I started filming like cleaning videos. That's all I had time to do. I was like, you know, cleaning guru is like a Mormon thing to do. You know, start trying to make money. And I was feeling like I wasn't living in a healthy place at that point. I had. This was like 10 years ago or so I started. I found Dr. Ramany on like narcissist, narcissistic abuse. I started and I had read every single basically parenting book there was out there. I was huge on like healing and everything, but I never wanted to admit even that I had anxiety myself. So at some point, I GUESS it was 20, 20, 2020, you know, the year everybody wakes up. I guess during this time I was, I was building my channel. I was starting to work with companies and make money and earn myself and I'm like, you know, maybe at some point leave this marriage because I didn't feel like it was healthy for me. And I started recognizing the red signs and the psychological and emotional abuse that I was enduring.
- [72:05]
Kit
How long were you guys together at this point?
- [72:07]
Kristen
It was 15 years.
- [72:09]
Kit
Long time.
- [72:10]
Kristen
Yeah. Yeah, we had been together for 15 years and, and it's not like all the time was bad. We had so many good times. But whenever it was bad, it's like it was like he was a different person. So it's like, like I didn't know this person at all. He completely showed me what I wanted to see at all times, would tell me exactly what I wanted to hear at all times. But he wasn't even that person. Like, he just knew me so well that he knew exactly what to say. He had known me since I was four years old. He knew the right things to say to me at all times to get me to just let him do whatever he wanted so he can go and to these concerts with these, these people. He. He made fun of me whenever I made my YouTube channel. He made so much fun of me and just thought it was stupid. I didn't even tell him the first few months. Eventually I started growing and I started like getting money and. And that's when he decided he wanted to jump in and kind of take over my business. So he started trying to tell me how to change my thumbnails and how to, how to film my videos and started telling like buying things for me to promote. And then he started making furniture because I wanted to start repainting furniture and kind of decor house and everything. But he's like, no, you can't do that. Like you'll just mess up the garage. So he didn't, he wouldn't even let me like paint. Like he kept me in a childlike mindset for years. Like I felt like a child around him for a long time. And it's taken. It's like I'm 42 years old, but I still feel like I'm like a 16 year old girl sometimes, you know, it's like it emotionally stunted me big time because of the way he treated me, the way he talked to me. It was just like, like it's just like I was a kid. That's just the way he treated me. Like everything I said was stupid. If I had anything intellectual to say to him, he would say, that doesn't make sense. That's stupid. Like if I'm trying to explain my feelings or what I learned from Dr. Ramany or you know, what I learned about psychology. Because I, like, for 10 years, I've been obsessed with learning about trauma and healing and psychology and just all the things. And he just would just make me feel so stupid if I would communicate myself. That's why I have such a hard time communicating. And I wasn't sure how I do on the show, but just because communicating is so hard for me still. But he kept me in that mindset, like, where anything I ever had to say was just stupid. Like, I was just stupid. That's how he made me feel. So I'm working on these videos, and he jumps in and he starts making all this furniture for me. And on my channel, everybody's like, like, oh, my God, he's such an amazing husband. He's making all this stuff for you. It's great. And what he was doing was he had his co worker friend who was a woman, helping him make this furniture for me for my YouTube YouTube channel. And it ended up being that, like, he ended up making me this big couch. I made a big production of it on my YouTube channel, and I shared it. And two weeks later, he's like, like, by the way, I haven't loved you for three years, so I'm gonna go be with my co worker. And he told me. He literally told me the day my oldest son moved out of the house to go to college. Like, I'm like. He was like, how are you doing today? I'm like, not. Not great. Go easy on me today. And he gets home from work and is like, by the way, I'm in love with my co worker, and I'm done. And so it. I'm trying to. I feel like I'm cutting stuff out because I'm. I. I know I still have so much to share, but I want to get to the other stuff, so. So, yeah, it was like, same thing. Like, after two years of marriage, it's just like, all of a sudden, I don't emotionally connect with you. I don't love you or whatever, and just, like, gone like that. But yet the entire time he, like, I saw no, right. I. He pretended like he loved me the entire time. So it was very confusing to me. So it was like 15 years of marriage, and then all of a sudden, no, I'm done. I'm gonna go be with my co worker. So after a month of that, at that point, I was at a very low point because my children weren't doing okay. Like, my three young. One of my boys who I've been trying to like get an autism diagnosed. I don't even know if it's that. He just has a lot of trauma because he was the child that would say no, the child that wouldn't listen to his dad because he is, he's. He's a truth teller. He helped me see the red signs. Like, he woke me up. This child did. He's like, the way that he's talking right now isn't okay. And he was telling me this at like 4 years old. Like this. This child of mine opened my eyes and helped me like learn more about abusive behaviors and manipulation and all that stuff. And he helped me to learn to set boundaries more. So during this time, I ended up going to therapy. That's when I started therapy. And it took me until the age of 38 to even tell my doctor, I think I have anxiety, but it's so much more than that. I have like, like severe complex ptsd. During this time, I get a letter or I get a message from one of his family members and I'm not going to share because that's like her story. I get a message from her and I've known her forever and she tells me something huge. And it was very unexpected because it was like it sent me into this down world where downwards spiral to where I was completely, like, I was completely dissociated again. I was just like, I. What it, what it was though, it's not just association, it's a identity crisis where I'm just like, I'm not that person. I don't want to be that person. I don't want to exist anymore. And it wasn't like that I wanted to die because I have to be there for my kids. And that's like what has held me together all my life is that, that I have kids, so I have to be here. And that's like as soon as I got pregnant with my son, like if, if I ever had any suicidal ideation things, I'm like, no, my kids need me. I gotta be. I'm here for my kids. Like, they are my one top priority. So like, my kids say me so many times, not even funny, but during this time. So he went, moved out within a month. I get this letter from this, from his family member about something huge that he had done from his past. I didn't even know like his, his stories from his past. I didn't even know like the life that he had lived or the traumas that he had because he was very secretive about it, even though he was my neighbor. And I had known him all my life. Like, I didn't even know any of this stuff. It was so confusing to me to suddenly realize that, like, he had done something to someone underage. And I had no idea because I thought they were close, and it was very unexpected. And then he comes back, and suddenly, like, as soon as he realizes that. That she had reached out, he comes back and gets in my head, and I'm not in a good place. Like, I'm like, completely. Identity is, like, stripped. I'm. I'm just, like, surviving for my kids at this point. And he's like, well, let's try marriage counseling and try to fix it and everything. So I'm like, I don't. I'm. I don't know what to do. But I also hated the fact that I had my boyfriend 50. 50, because that was like, when they would go to their house, I was. I was not okay. And I just wanted my kids. I wanted my kids all the time. I love my kids. They're like everything to me. So what ended up, he somehow manipulated. And he would totally deny this, but he manipulated his way back into the house. Like, I. I got to at least stay in the house and everything whenever he had left, but he had manipulated his way back in. And during this time, I was not myself, and he had gotten into my head, and I felt. I literally felt like I had, like, had an age. Aggression where I was, like, really young again because of my did. He was. He said that he was having a hard time performing or something, and that's why he went on and had this fair. He was like, oh, you know, midlife crisis type thing, and it was a mistake. You're the love of my life. You're this. And we started going to counseling. He started going therapy. I started going to therapy. We went to marriage counseling, and the marriage counselor was like. Loved him. He's very charismatic. He's like. Like, everybody loves him. So she was, like, on. She often made me feel like I was a problem, that I wasn't forgiving him for the affair enough, or that I was like, why am I. Why is my PTSD so bad? Or whatever. Why am I constantly not okay? I was just, like, basically in survival. And during this time, he got into my head, and he was like, well, I want you to know that it wasn't you. It wasn't you that made me do this. Like, you're beautiful. You're everything. I want you to feel empowered. So he started putting it in my head that it would be a great idea to start trying to meet up with other men. And he was like, I just want you to have this opportunity to. To start feeling like you're wanted. It's. It's gonna. It's gonna make you. It's gonna make you feel empowered and just amazing. So he started, like, putting all this stuff into my head about. About how my worth would be found by all these men wanting me. And he wanted me to start going to, like, the gym and try to meet people or go to the bar by myself and meet people and go home with them. And. And. And, like, the first time he had told me, he was like. He was like, oh, I just want to talk about fantasies. And I'm like. I'm like, okay. Because, like, I mean, honestly, our sex life was pretty boring for the most part because, like, we hardly even ever had to sex through our whole marriage. And we had been together, I think, at this point, like, 16, 17 years.
- [82:02]
Kit
So this is still around. This is 20, 20. Ish time.
- [82:05]
Kristen
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it's like. I think it was 2021 where, like, he. He started having me listen to podcasts about hot wifing. Like that fantasy hot wife where you're. You're. You send your wife out and she takes videos of being with other men and. Never heard of that. Really? Yeah, it's like a total. I did. I had never heard of it either until he suddenly, like, brought it up one day. So he had wrote a story about me being with. He was like, it's just. It's just a story. It's just a fancy. We're just playing along with this fantasy, and I'm like, okay. And at this point, I'm just, like, following along because I'm just not okay. And somehow he came back into the house and I'm scared at this point. I'm. I'm terrified of him because I don't know who this person is anymore. Because I just realized, like, my person is a total lie. Like, he's con man. He's not the person he said he was all these years. I don't know him. But I was following along because this is what I do when I'm scared. Like, I freeze and I fawn, and I will pretend and act however you need me to. If I'm scared of you, like, I don't know how to stop it. That's why I isolate, because I'm just, like, anybody could get in my head and make me do whatever. If I'm scared at this point, and it's terrifying to Me. So he had, like, for six months, he was, like, sending me books, writing stories. And during sex, like, he bought all these toys and he would name them all, and he would, like, pretend to be these different men and everything for, like, six months. It was nothing but. And I'm a sexual person. Like, I love sex. I, you know, I, I'm. I, I orgasm very easily, for one. For you, right?
- [83:46]
Kit
Not everybody can say that.
- [83:47]
Kristen
Yeah, I guess I was trained that way, but now I'm terrified to be touched. But, you know, but so it's like he really, like, like. And that's one thing that my therapist told me. Like, the fact that you can't think clearly whenever you're in that mindset, when, when you're, when you're feeling sexual or whatever and someone's putting things in your head, you can't think clearly. And she actually helped me realize a lot. Like, for one, that it wasn't my fault that I get married when I was 16, because my husband always blamed me that I got married when I was 16. And, you know, I blame myself. And, and I lived with that shame for so long, like, that I didn't pick him. So he started wanting me to meet other men. And it started with just a fantasy. And he promised, like, it's just fantasy. I don't actually want this to happen. But, like, as the fantasy continued and everything, like, he would throw out new things. Like, he would start posting things on Reddit. He would write these stories about me being with, like, two men or four men or something at once. And he started writing down all these little fantasies that he. Little big fantasies that he wanted me to do, like, go be unicorn for a couple and go, I don't know. There's a long list of these different things that he wanted me to, that he wanted to check off of his fantasy bucket list of me. And I'm just like, the perfect wife to just groom because I am, like, not even. I don't even know where I'm at mentally. I'm just not okay. And I'm just like, all the. Anytime that I am present, it is me taking care of my kids, because that's like, that's my thing. But he is in my head whenever he's. Whenever, like, at night and stuff. And at night, it's like, every single time at night, something's going on. Just like my. When I'm 16, I'm reverting back to my 16 self at this point. So I feel like I'm 16 or I feel like I'm 4. Because I. I feel I have trauma from back then, but I don't remember it. And he's just putting all these things in my head, and I'm listening to all these podcasts, and I start assuming that it's what I want to be doing, that this is the only way that I can feel empowered, because my own husband doesn't want me. He doesn't, you know, so he wants me to go be with other men, so I might as well just go be with other men. And that, like, that mindset, like, it was real. I don't. It was. It was, like, ingrained into me. It was grooming is what it was.
- [86:18]
Kit
Yeah.
- [86:22]
Kristen
So he starts posting pictures of me on Reddit, and, you know, starts, like, he starts making me watch because of my past. I had never really watched porn before because of the PTSD for my first husband, so I had never, like, watched. I didn't even like to watch, like, movies. I had nudity. And now I don't care. Whatever. I'm just like. I almost became a porn star, so whatever. I just. I don't. I don't care anymore. I don't judge. I'm just like, whatever, you know? Make your money, man. Yeah, I'm different. I am completely different person now. But were you so religious at this point? I had. I had. I finally had left the church, but I still believed in it.
- [87:06]
Kit
Got it. Okay.
- [87:07]
Kristen
So there was still that setback, but. But I was having a fai. Faith crisis, and that's like, when he got in my head, I was having a faith crisis from the religion that I had loved. So I was just going through this, and then losing my family after 15 years, my marriage, and having my boys 50% of the time. So it's like, you know, then all of a sudden, this exciting stuff starts happening, and I'm like, oh, my God. He's giving me all this attention. Like, he's acting like my best friend again.
- [87:30]
Kit
So the pictures he was posting of you, were you nude? Were you clothed?
- [87:34]
Kristen
Yeah.
- [87:34]
Kit
Yeah, it was nude pictures. Okay.
- [87:36]
Kristen
Yeah. So he was posting, like, nude pictures of me, and he was. He put up cameras in all the rooms, including our bedroom. He said that he was, like, he would want me to perform for him while he was at work or whatever with our toys that he bought with all their names and. Yeah. And, you know, there was a part of me that was just like. Because I was so. Because of my DID Where I. I will become whatever you need me to become to survive. And that's what did. Is is for, like, when you cannot survive through something. If you cannot survive through your lived experience, you completely dissociate from what you're living, and you become whatever your perpetrator needs or wants you to become. And that's what I did. So I thought that I was going in this, like, yeah, let's do this. You know, whatever. It doesn't matter. My body is nothing. Like, my. My body's destroyed anyways. What does it matter? So. So, like, there was one instance where we had talked to someone on Reddit and he wanted me to give him a blow job while this guy watched us. And I did. And it was exciting. It was thrilling. It was fun. I'm like, yeah, I'm so cool. You know, I was very much, like, not myself. But then, like, after, like, he was an asshole, like, whenever I was done and everything, and we got off the phone with this guy, like, I thought that he was gonna come and take care of me or something afterwards, and then he was just like, whatever, you know, that was. That was cool, whatever. And then he, like, just ignore me. And one of his biggest punishments is silent treatment. I have lived in silent treatment for basically 20 years. Well, I mean, even before then, but through this entire marriage, if I would. If he did not like my opinion, he would silent. He would just, like, not talk to me for sometimes even a month. Like, I would go. A month just. And I would. I would go in my closet. I, like, literally would live in my closet and just hide from him whenever he was home because I didn't want to see him because he just, like, was so mean. Or he would just walk by me and pretend like I didn't exist. Like, not even communicate with me whatsoever. So it's like I lived in this weird world, and I didn't have friends. I didn't have family. I had no one. I've been isolated. I'm still isolated, but, you know, I just had no one to talk to. And so when he was being, like, my best friend again, and he was so excited about this new stuff that I was doing for him, it was like I was alive. I was like, okay, I'm okay. You know, I'm living or whatever. And, you know, and don't worry, my kids are all fine doing this. I'm like, I am. I'm 100, always present for my kids. Like, that's. I dissociate so I can be there. Like, I have a. I have a person that steps in whenever I can't be. Be present as my present self. That is a mom figure. And that's one cool thing about DID is, like, when you dissociate, you can still. It's like a function. It's a functioning freeze, basically. So. So, yeah, like, that was just it. It felt dirty, it felt wrong. It felt like I was used during that whole thing. But then, like, so he didn't. And so he started, like, talk, like, communicating with other people more than me and just, like, shutting me out again. And I was getting the silent treatment, and I was mentally struggling. My PTSD was bad. I was trying my best to not be hiding in the closet. And so eventually, like, he would start communicating with me again, and we would. He would take it slow. Like, every single time I would have a setback and my PTSD would get bad. He would take it slow and then slowly start throwing the seeds back out there. And he even admitted he even have. Like, even on Reddit, he had put, like, oh, yeah, my. My wife wasn't okay with it at first, but I just kept planting the seeds or whatever. Like, he even admitted that he was grooming it into me and whether he knew how severe it was and that I wasn't actually okay with it, I don't know, because he just wouldn't listen to me. But during this time also, like, whenever I would come to him and be like, I'm not doing okay. I don't know if I want to be doing this. Does this even sound like me as a person? Like, is this something that I would normally. And he lied. It doesn't. But during this time, he was also. He had never been, like, physical or anything. It's not that he got physical with me, but he started breaking down doors and like, 15 years of marriage, 17 years of marriage, he had never done that before. Never broken doors or yelled at me or whatever. And I mean, he's yelled, but not, like, to this extent. It started getting scary during this time. Whenever I would try to regress back to not doing this hot wifing thing. Like, it started getting. I started getting terrified. And I have no escape. I have no money. I'm like a. I've been a housewife. I've been a housewife. And I stopped filming on my YouTube because he completely, like, traumatized me on there with that. That girlfriend that he had. So I just, like, I was embarrassed on there. There's. I had so much toxic shame, like, inside of me that. That I just stopped filming. I stopped working. I stopped doing a lot of things. I was just, like, living for him basically at this point. Just like I was whenever I was 16. So he started wanting to reenact my 16 year old self. He wanted to pretend to be my first husband during some of it, which was very traumatizing. I even like brought it up to my, my therapist. I was like, oh, yeah, we're trying to heal, we're trying to heal trauma. So he's like, he's wanting to act like this so that we can heal it because he says he's a safe place. And she was like, wait, what? And that's when she's like, kristen, like, you got to leave. And she. So she kept like. So I just stopped, I stopped telling her what was going on because I'm like, I don't, I, I don't know what's going on. I was just so confused. I was so dissociated and just surviving. So we get on. Oh, I don't remember what it's called. There's like some kind of dating site that is for kink type things. And I'm like, totally. Four kings. I don't really care. But when, when it's consensual, you know, we got on there and we started talking to this one guy and he was, I mean, he was sexy as hell, to be honest. He. He was hot. But we started. I was like, hey, you think I'm cute? Okay, no, but so, so we started talking to this guy and, and we meet him at a bar and my husband leaves for a little bit of time and we start making out and it got kind of hot and heavy. And then like, and then like we separated. He went to his place and we went home and he like, my husband's like, how was. I was like, oh, that's fine. But then like the next day or a few days later, my PTSD started coming up and I'm like, wait, okay. I don't know if that was okay, actually. Like, yes, it was fun during that time, but I don't know if this is really what I want to be doing. Like, I need time to process and, and, but he didn't give me time to process. So. On my 40th birthday, unexpectedly, I had no idea I had been drinking a little bit because I was new to drinking because I was Mormon. I couldn't drink all my life. So I was drinking a little bit. He. And then all of a sudden, like he's, he's acting anxious and it's like late at night and we're in the side yard and he's like looking over the gate and I'm like, what's going on? So he went and he opened the gate and in walks this hot guy. And I'm like, what the. That's unexpected. I'm just trying to sell my. Celebrate my 40th birthday, man. And he's like, I brought you a birthday present. And I'm like, at this point I'm like, well, I don't like to hurt people's feelings. I don't like people to go out of their way and do something. So I just, I'm just like, okay, I guess this is happening. And I didn't have time to think or process or anything. Whether I have done, I don't even know. I didn't even have time to, you know, but. And this guy was really nice. Like, it was not on him. This was all my husband. Like, this guy was super nice, but basically like my husband just sits down on a chair and swatching me and this dude like, like, you know, making out and everything. And then at some point I was like, okay, I think I'm ready. Let's do this, you know. So, you know, I did agree to it and. But I wasn't mentally. I wasn't mentally myself. I wasn't mentally. Okay. So we end up having sex and my husband ends up joining. And I mean, honestly, it was a lot of fun. But then, you know, a few days later, my PTSD comes back up. And when my PTSD comes back back, that's when he gets like loud and that's when he starts breaking things and that's when he starts telling me he can't communicate with me anymore, that I'm not worth even like a glance. Like, you pretend like I didn't exist anymore, basically. So it's like I just did something huge. Like I've been with the same person for 17 years. I've only been with two people other than time that I was raped when I was 20. But you know, it's like it was huge. And he wasn't there for me during that time. And I just needed like someone to be there for me because I'm like, I'm not. My, my PTSD is so bad and I'm like reverting back to like 16 year old me. And I'm suddenly terrified all the time. And instead of just like comforting me and be like, you know, oh, well, you know, maybe we pushed it too soon or whatever, he was just like, well, whatever, I'm, I'm. I don't care. I'm done. So he would just give me silent treatment, wouldn't even communicate with me, but he would make me sit there and watch TV with him, but would not talk to me, not touch me, not look at me. So it's like I. I constantly felt like every time I've tried to revert back and be like, I don't want to be doing this. Like, I don't feel like this is safe for even our kids for me. I don't feel like this is safe for me. I feel like this is dangerous. I would get that silent treatment or that, like, I'm the problem. So it always made me go back to being like, okay, well, let's go ahead and do it. Like, it was, it was. It was very psychological to it, to the point where I felt like I had to do it if I wanted to feel loved. But I mean, I. I even know, like, looking back, I should have not even been with him anymore. I should have never let him move back into the house. But he just kind of came back and I didn't know how to get him back out at this point. He was just trying to send me places to meet people. And it didn't. I didn't let it get it to that extent. And that's when I talked to my therapist. I finally. I went in, really triggered one day because he was just not talking to me or communicating with me. And. And I opened up to her the most that I had. And she was like. She was like, kristen, are you sure he's not trying to sex traffic you? And I'm like, no, no, no. You know, because he was starting to try to make money off of me. And he had his cameras up all over the house where I was constantly, like, on edge. Like, he can see everything I'm doing all day long if he's at work. Even in our room, there was a camera. And it was just. It made me feel trapped and alone and just scared. And I had no one, so except for my therapist. So I finally was able to talk to her and. And she said that word. And I got online and I was like, sex trafficking wife or whatever. And I found your video, your most viewed video. And I'm like. And I watched that and I'm like, holy shit. Oh, my God. I don't want to get that bad because I was getting to that point where I was just allowing him to do whatever he wanted to to me and just being silent about it because what's the point? And when I bring it up, it's just like silent treatment. I have no money. I have nothing. Like, I'm stuck here. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to escape.
- [99:15]
Kit
Well, the thing is too, I think he was making it pretty obvious that he didn't really care about you and the relationship at that point. It was more so like, like to get off. It was like for his fantasies only. And then as soon as it was over, it was like, yeah, you're not a big deal anymore.
- [99:30]
Kristen
Yeah.
- [99:30]
Kit
And honestly, like, it only makes sense that, like, because it had progressed from where it began. So, like, if somebody started offering money, I highly doubt he would say, oh, no, keep your money. You know what I mean? Because then it's like, it's a win win. He gets off and he gets paid for it.
- [99:45]
Kristen
Yeah, exactly. Well, that's the thing. He was like constantly wanting me to start, like, create my own page and, and post all the videos with all the men. Like, he was having me watch other women that were doing this for their husbands and how, how amazing it was for them and how amazing their marriage is because we grew up in purity culture. So he wanted me to, to take care of that for him, basically be his little, his little porn star and just, you know, make my own little videos to send to him because he's having a harder time because of his own addictions and stuff like that. But he was trying to make me become that person for him.
- [100:21]
Kit
Yeah.
- [100:22]
Kristen
And I was just always like this. I. I don't even like, I don't even like people. I don't even like to go to the bar. I don't like to communicate with people. And he's trying to suddenly make me go out and do all these things. And I'm like, you realize I hide from people. This is not me. This is scary. And I have five kids, you know, I. This is not who I am as a person. But he would always tell me that that was who I am, that that is who I am, because I was real raised Mormon. That it's just, you know, I'm just still trying to, to come. Come to my true self. And that's me going and throwing myself to every. Any man that wanted me. Basically. He was like, I want you to even be with someone who's 18 so that you can be there. They. You can be their first experience and train them or whatever. And I'm just like, that's weird. That's weird. I have kids older than that. Like, that's weird, man. No, I'm not gonna do that shit. So it got to that point and then when my, when I Watched your video. Like, something just kind of clicked in me, and I went to my therapist again, and she was like. She helped me get a hold of a women's shelter. I contacted them, and they helped me move. Like, I didn't. He didn't know I was moving or anything. He wasn't even communicating. He wasn't even talking to me at this point. I was getting complete silent treatment after that incident because I wasn't 100 okay with it. So I took half of our money from the bank, and I grabbed our clothes, and I found the place. And it was really hard for me because I had to have a cosigner in most places, but I found, like, just some place an hour away in the woods, and I packed up my kids, and I was like, we're moving. And he didn't know that I was leaving, and he was still like, I'm still very much trauma bonded to this man, because this. This trauma bond goes, like, into childhood, basically. But even before then, like, he was trying to get me to enact these traumas, even his own traumas and stuff. Like, he had admitted to me that he was attracted to underage kids and stuff at this point. And I had, like. At that point, I had erased all memories of the present day. I'm just like, I am. And I just felt like I was young because of my DID because I didn't want to see my present, because I just realized, what the fuck have I been married to? Like, am I just. Have I been a body this entire time? Like, I have kids. We have kids. And, like. And I've. I've. I had. I sent my kids in therapy and everything, and they're like, he didn't do anything to them, but, like, he admitted this to me, and I had no idea. Yeah, I had no idea because I grew up. That stuff was normalized. Like, you know, being attracted to, like, it was just normal. And it was just like. It was so unexpected. But that's when I just realized, like, I was. I was only a prop from the beginning. Like, you wanted someone with kids, and what if my kids don't have memories? You know? Like, that fear is there, and it's just like, that shame of me being a mom and being so protective of my kids is just like, what have I had in their life all this time? Like, I. It's just like, that mindset of, like. And he wanted me to start performing like, I was 8 years old. And during some of these fantasies, after a while, after, like, after the incident, like, it started Getting really bad. So I had moved out. He wasn't doing okay mentally at this point. He was struggling with his own, like, suicidal ideations and stuff, or at least that's what he was telling me, you know, kind of control tactics. I don't know. But he seemed like he was really struggling too, because, like, I. I don't even know because there's still that part of me that's like, he's not all bad. But then what the. What do you do to me? He is bad because what do he did to me? And, like, this person was my best friend for a lifetime. And I just, like, was so clueless and so, like, blind. I was so blind to everything. I just didn't see it. And I don't know if it's because my brain protected me from seeing it because of my DID or if it's like, I don't know what it was, but. But, yeah, I was able to move out, but during that time, he was still in my head, and he would still come over, and it's like he would use any holiday to get back in my head. And like I said, I cannot control when someone wants me to do something. I will. I freeze and I fall when I'm scared of someone. So it's like I become whoever they want me to. So it's like. Like I had to go completely no contact, or this man would continue being in my head constantly. Therapy was helping me a lot to kind of try to figure out who I was as a general, as. As an actual person. Because I realized that, like, my entire life I've been following a church that. That supported misogyny and. And the patriarchy. Like, it was just huge. And I was just like the woman who was second class because of that church. And so it's like, just like the teachings from that church from early childhood was so ingrained in me that I was just like, I have to. I have to be whatever my husband needs me to be. So it's like I just followed along and I just. It just. I made no sense to me because whenever I was my present self, I'm like, I. I could barely even remember what was going on. My memory was so bad. I did, like, during. There's. There's so much more to it that I'm leaving out because I just can't remember some of it, and I haven't quite processed it all yet.
- [105:58]
Kit
Yeah, it's still super fresh. Like, it's a long. It was a long span of time, but all this still happened within the Last, like, couple years.
- [106:05]
Kristen
Yeah, it's like. Yeah, exactly. And there was even, I think before I had moved out at this point, there was a. My. My therapist was like, you need to take two days, because I never leave my kids or anything. So it's like she was like, you need to take two days to yourself and go get in a hotel room and, you know, just be in your own head. And I did. So I went and I stayed in a hotel room. And I didn't quite feel like myself. I felt like I was. Most of my life feels like I've watched from a movie, like, from third person. I feel like I didn't live it. I feel like I was just like. Like, you know, it just feels like an old black and a white movie that I've watched pretty much the majority of my life. And that's what I'm trying to wake myself up from now. And that's like, why coming here is so big for me, because making my reality real, because all of this lived experience to me was like, I didn't live it. It was someone else that loved it. It wasn't me. It was my. It was my parts as my broken parts. It wasn't me.
- [107:10]
Kit
Well, I think like you said too, you know, not only did you live so many different lives and go through so many different phases, like, you went from, you know, being raised and taught to be a certain type of way and being taught that all of these things are wrong. Like, sex is wrong and being touched is wrong. But then it's okay to, like, get married young and, like, it's okay for these older men to look at me and touch me. It's like it was so much like, back and forth and contradictions. I feel like that it left you so confused. And like you said, like, I mean, mean, generally speaking, not everyone is going to be, like, an outspoken, strong person from the jump. Like, some people are more quiet and shut off and they freeze in, you know, uncomfortable or scary situations. Like, there's nothing wrong with that.
- [107:53]
Kristen
Every.
- [107:53]
Kit
Every human is different. Every human reacts differently.
- [107:56]
Kristen
Yeah.
- [107:57]
Kit
So, you know, you had all of those things happen, and then you go from that phase of life and being super religious and in that religion and following their rules per se, and next thing you know, you know, you're an adult and you have five kids, but then you're also trying to just, like, please your husband and be the good wife. And then now you're almost like his sex dummy in a way, and you're doing all these things that he's asking you to. And that's like, it. I feel like it doesn't allow you to really figure out who you are or who you want to be, because this whole. Your whole life, you've been following the rules of other people, so how would you know who you are? You know, And I feel like you're still. Like you said, you still very much are on this healing journey for yourself, and it probably. It probably will take a while for you to figure out, like, who am I? Who do I want to be? Because you spent more than half of your life, like, I feel like, behind the curtains of other people that were abusive and weren't the best people at all by any means, you know? And something else I want to say, I know I kind of mentioned this before, is like, I feel like obviously it's super normal to look back on things and have guilt and kind of feel like, well, what if. Or I should have known or I should have seen it. But, like, that's not always the case. Like, you don't have. Like I said, you don't have to validate or explain that to anyone. Like, if you didn't see it, you didn't see it. And most victims that are in, you know, abusive relationships, whether it's physical, whether it's emotional, mental, whatever, like. Like they don't see these things or they block out these things because they love someone too much or because they are naive to it. They weren't raised to see red flags. They weren't raised to know, like, this is a problem, this is abuse. Like, you had so much freedom in a way, growing up. Like, you're, like you said your mom kind of just like, let whatever happen that I feel like you didn't ever really have a adult figure saying this is wrong, or be careful of this or be aware of this, or, you know, these older men were just let into your life and placed into your life to basically do whatever they wanted. That from such a young age, you were taught that it's okay to be touched and to be taken advantage of. And I don't really have a voice. So you grow. You grow up without a voice. And that makes sense because that's what you went through. But, like, looking back now, just because you are finally on your healing journey now and finally finding yourself now, that doesn't mean that you look back and you say, like, oh, damn, like, I should have seen those signs. Like, you shouldn't have because you didn't know any better.
- [110:24]
Kristen
Right?
- [110:25]
Kit
So I just want to let you know that.
- [110:26]
Kristen
Thank you yeah, of course. That's exactly what my therapist would tell me because it's true.
- [110:30]
Kit
It's like you can't. And the thing is, is no one can really relate to that unless they, they can relate to you and who you were at those times of your life. Like, someone that is like, might have like a different upbringing or a stronger backbone or might be more outspoken, they could easily look at you and be like, I mean, yeah, you should have recognized that or realized it, but like they can't relate to you or what you went through or what you didn't go through. So it's like it's, it's two completely different story.
- [110:55]
Kristen
That's one thing that my therapist even mentions is like it was your normal. Like that's the normal for where you grew up and it's what you actually live. Because, like, you know, I just genuinely thought that this person was really good with kids and everything. I didn't realize that he was like possibly having some kind of fantasy or whatever in his head during that time. Like, he never acted or whatever, but. But I was just the body. And that was one thing that he always bragged about, like my, how young I looked and stuff. Even, even whenever he would post pictures of me is like, my wife is 40, but she looks 20 or something stupid. But like that kind of stuff was, you know, there really becomes a point in your life where you have that awareness and you start seeing life for what it truly was. And a lot of people, I feel like that come from trauma and I feel like so many, just about everybody comes from some sort of trauma or whatever, has some kind of mental health issues and they don't recognize because you are groomed from the beginning to believe certain things and certain aspects of life. And then as you're living it, you just don't see it because it's never been pointed out to you to be something different or a red flag or anything. And you know, I just, I felt so stupid during that time and I took like, I blamed myself. I had so much toxic shame because of that. But my therapist has been working with me on that like, you know, a lot, which has been great, but. But there's still that like self hatred that I just like and, and this distrust in all people. I just like, I don't trust people. Yeah, I just would rather be at home with my cats and my kids. I feel that because, like, I just just. Nah, people are just scary.
- [112:40]
Kit
Right? No, and that's, I completely agree with that for sure. And I think that there you should always have boundaries set for yourself and for your children. It's, it's a safety measure. You know, I, I don't think you can ever be too cautious. And as far as the religion thing goes, you know, I think that religion is a great thing for people when it can provide a sense of community. And I think that it can really help people out of a dark place at times and it can help people live a very organized, rule based life in a way. But there's very scary sides to religion and I think that, you know, like even the documentary I was saying I was watching about, it's the flds, right? Yeah, like that. And you know, even what you were saying, it's like going back to what you said, there's no reason why, in my opinion, no matter what religion or what you believe that a young girl, whether you're a young girl or you're a 25 year old girl or a 30 year old woman, there's no reason why you should be explaining to another man like the sexual things that are happening in your life, that's personal, that shouldn't, you should never feel like, oh, I did something wrong. So now I have to confess these sins to, you know, this praised prophet Bishop man, you know what I mean? Like, it's just those things to me are just twisted and weird and no boundaries and an invasion of privacy and everything in between. And that's not, like I said, that's not to say that all religion is bad and it's not to say that there aren't some good people that just genuinely follow these rules because they want to be the best version of themselves and they want to, you know, people believe what they're going to believe. But there's, I feel like as much as there's good, there's just as much bad, if not worse. And even on the show especially, I feel like I've had so many people come on where the religion was more like a cult or, you know, there were so many just sexual things involved that are so not okay and disgusting. But when you're raised that way, you don't know any different. And there's so many times that you know that sets your standards when you're taught that at such a young age and you believe something so much and you become so attached to these religions, it sets the standard of like who you're supposed to be per se, you know, And I just think that it's a very scary thing for so many different reasons. It, it prevents you from having boundaries, it prevents you from having a voice. It prevents you from any sort of privacy. And fortunately, I feel like you're now seeing the clarity. But there's a lot of people that don't ever see that clarity. And then it's like this repetitive generational cycle and then it's passed down to their kids and their kids and so on. And then even unfortunately, it could be neighbors or friends and it's just, it bleeds into other people's lives and it can become very, very scary and toxic. And I just think that I'm glad that you spoke about the religion aspect of it because obviously like you said, it was a huge part of your life. But it just goes to show how that can just also be so twisted and toxic as well, because it really can be.
- [115:46]
Kristen
Yeah, it's scary. And that's like one thing that the church teaches. Like, don't talk about what happens in the bedroom. Don't like, like, you know, don't talk unless it's with your bishop. You know, you can go to your bishop and share all the dirty little secrets or whatever. And that's the one thing that's really cool because that new doc, that new reality show came out of the Mormon Wives or whatever. And watching that, I'm just like, oh my God. Like it's so eye opening to, first of all, how young all these 20 to 30 year old women are acting, you know, they're all like super judgmental and, and jealous of each other or whatever. And they're. A lot of them are in toxic marriages and it's just like that is our church. That like the church is like, that's not a right representation of our church. But I'm just like, that's what I lived. And I was 100% a Mormon wife. Like I was 100% silent and didn't tell. Like I would go to the bishop whenever I was struggling with my husband or whatever, when I felt like it was kind of abusive or something and he would just tell me, you know, oh, well, pray about it. Pray more and do better. Do better for your kids. You know, have. It was always put on the women. It was like, even, like we are taught not to wear anything revealing. We have to wear like garments that go to our knees and that cover our shoulders and stuff because we are too tempting. So like even they blame anything that happens to a woman on the woman, not the man, because the man is just the man, you know, or the boy is just a boy. They're just gonna do whatever. But that's just like first of all, they're damaging the men by teaching them in that. Because they're not like teaching them like women, women are, women are people, they have feelings. They, they actually matter or whatever. They're just, just spreading this. Like they're making it okay to blame the women. Like everything is the woman's fault. If you get touched, it's your fault. If you do this, it's your fault. Like, it just, it just kills me. And that's one thing that I saw on that show too. It's just so. I don't know you watched it or not, but I haven't yet. No. Yeah. And so. But yeah, it's. It's very eye opening for me at. Cause a lot of PTSD flashbacks, that's for sure. But the men, and they're like very misogynistic because of the patriarchy. It's like huge. And I don't disreligion either or anybody else's belief. Like I have 100% believe that absolutely every person is at their own state in life and the like that church was always very judgmental and that was just never the type of person I was. So I was just always kind of the outcast of the church. Church. So it's like, it's like I was very. I loved it and everything, but I could never make friends. I could never hold friends or whatever. I was just always alone. And then I just got silent because why communicate with anybody? Why even communicate with my bishop? Because he's just going to tell me to do better, pray more or. It didn't help me. It just made me feel like, okay, well, I guess I just got to go home and continue what I'm living then. Because that's what I'm taught to do. That's what I'm told to do.
- [119:01]
Kit
So now you're no longer part of the church, obviously right now. And then as far as your second husband goes, are you still just doing the 50.
- [119:09]
Kristen
50 we are right now? Yeah. Yeah. Like there was. So the time that I went with my. When my therapist asked me to go to take those two days to myself, like, I didn't feel like myself. I felt like I was definitely like just another part of me was taking over that just wanted control. So I stayed in a hotel and I went to a bar and I wasn't going to do anything, but this one guy walked in and like, so basically I did something that I had never ever in my life before done before. And because I had had no control of my life whatsoever, I Felt like for forever and even the last. Like I had been with my husband for how long and then he just invited another man to, to, to be with me. And it felt like, oh God, this just feels like any other time I've ever had sex. I guess I've never had sex and it be loved ever because it just felt like whatever. It just felt like another one of those instances. So I went to that bar and I started. This one guy came over to me and he was also hot. I'm such a dork. But. But still it wasn't me. And it just fe weird but in that moment it felt like me. I felt like I was trying to take control of my life or just like take something that was mine, take my body back, I guess. And it was not the best way to do it. I isolated for a year because of this, because I was so scared of what I did. But anyways, I started talking. This guy, we start dancing and he asks me, you know, if I want to hook up. And I'm like, yeah, just come back to my hotel room. So I had my first one night stand at like 40 years old. And it was really wild to me because yeah, I was. And you know, my husband loved it. He was just like so excited about it because we were, we were separated at this point. But anyways, he just wanted all the details or whatever. But yeah, so there was that. And that's when I started realizing that. That's when I started realizing that I had did that. I become whoever I need to be whenever I'm scared. And that's when I started being able to really tap into my healing and, and recognizing that if I'm not in a safe environment, then my, my brain is going to shut out or like if I'm living through trauma, my brain's gonna shut it out. Like that's a protective mechanism that you learn to do in child. Like if you usually get this from before the age of seven. And that's when I started recognizing like, okay, I need to figure out who I am as a person with no influences whatsoever. So I isolated for like a year other than him coming and getting in my head every often. But I was still like really just starting to set my boundaries. And he hated that he did not like my boundaries. So eventually he found his replacement and I was okay with that because I'm just like, yeah, because I can't, I can't be with you and I feel like I can't stay away from you because I don't have control of It. I feel like I can't control whatever.
- [122:16]
Kit
Well, part of you, I think, identifies with him because he was in your life for so long.
- [122:20]
Kristen
Yeah, like, he's. He was. I still, like, sometimes feel like he was my best friend, and I'm just like. It's so confusing to me that. That he did this to me, knowing that I wasn't okay, that I was really, like, it kills me. And he just like. And instead of comforting me or being like, you know, yeah, we should. We'll step back or hold back or whatever, you know, maybe. Maybe I could have become his perfect, hot wife. I don't know. But he didn't even give me that time and space to even process what had happened to me because I was reliving so much trauma, I was causing so much ptsd, and I just wasn't myself still. And so, yeah, now we are, you know, co parenting or whatever. We were no contact for a long time because I just didn't feel safe enough to be able to communicate with him or whatever. But ultimately, I mean, it seems like he's doing good with the. With the co parenting and he seems happy with his new relationship, and I am just like, you're on your isolating and healing and. And avoiding all people.
- [123:20]
Kit
Yeah. And don't be hard on yourself because, you know, like, you're. It's never too late to start healing, you know, but you have, like, years and years to sort through. So. I wouldn't be hard on yourself at all if you have days or weeks that you feel like you're set back a little bit, like, but you're not. Like, as long as you're taking the time to work on yourself and constantly find yourself and pick yourself back up and be there for your kids, which you said you've been doing, you know, and, like, you can tell how much you love your kids, you know, and that's the most important thing to you, you know, so that's what you need to focus on. That's your priority, and that should be all that matters to you right now.
- [123:55]
Kristen
Yeah, I even. I'm kind of living in a toxic situation right now that I'm trying to get out of, but I had someone yell at me the other day because they were trying to control me that I am the worst mother in the world or whatever. And not. I'm not in a relationship. It's actually. It's my daughter's boyfriend. So I set a great example for my daughter, and now I'm. You're okay. But even my. My ex Was like, you were the best mother I've ever. I've ever seen, so don't let anybody get to your head. Even though he used to tell me all the time, because I would be like, you're doing parenting wrong. I would correct him if he was being, like, controlling or whatever, because he was very abused as a child. So I would, like, point it out, and he's. He's. He's listened a lot, but usually he would get, like, you know, he would. He would get upset with me whenever I would point out something toxic that he was doing. I was like, we just have to unlearn it. We learn this stuff in childhood. We just got to unlearn it, you know, because we're. We're growing.
- [124:54]
Kit
Yeah.
- [124:55]
Kristen
But. Yeah, even. Even just the other day, he was like, you're an amazing mom. Don't even. Don't even do that. So I just feel like a lot of times I failed my kids because of the fact I didn't see what abuse was. I didn't know what it was. I didn't understand it. My dissociation and everything.
- [125:15]
Kit
You can't go back in time, and you're working on yourself now. And if you, you know, you. If you continue to look in the past and feel guilty and blame yourself, it's going to prevent you from being able to move forward, you know, and you don't need that. That's like. That's old news. You don't need that.
- [125:33]
Kristen
You're right.
- [125:33]
Kit
You know, but of course, you're gonna have days where you feel, like, upset with yourself and feel like you're. You're backtracking. But that's normal. Everybody feels that way. But you can only stay, like, only let your. Let yourself stay there for so long. Like, you can't stay there and get stuck. You can have those thoughts, but you gotta remember. Okay, but, like, let me snap back into reality. This is where I am now. This is the path I'm on, and I'm past all that. Like, I need to start moving forward for myself and everything in between.
- [126:03]
Kristen
Yeah.
- [126:04]
Kit
You know, so don't do that to yourself.
- [126:07]
Kristen
Okay?
- [126:08]
Kit
It's fine. You know, we can only do so much. But if you keep beating yourself up, it's just like we are our own worst enemies. And you, like, you can't afford to be that to yourself.
- [126:20]
Kristen
Yeah. I think, like, my biggest part was the fact that I had so much trauma and didn't realize it. I was just like, I don't want my kids to have trauma ever.
- [126:28]
Kit
Right.
- [126:29]
Kristen
So I was, like, so protective, in a sense.
- [126:32]
Kit
And that makes sense. That makes a lot. And it makes sense because of what you went through and what you felt, that you are going to be harder on yourself and you're going to beat yourself up for it, but you just. You just can't.
- [126:44]
Kristen
Yeah.
- [126:44]
Kit
And it's like, it sounds so, like, simple, and I know it's not, but, like, you have to keep reminding yourself, like. Like, I am on my healing journey now, and I need to keep pushing forward. And anything that happens, like, all you can do is face it today and handle it as you would as the woman you are today. That's it. You know?
- [127:04]
Kristen
I love that. Thank you. I'm like. I feel like I'm finally finding out who I am since I was, like, there for everybody else for so long, even my kids. Like, my life was dedicated to them. So it's like I never had an identity of my own because my identity was my kids.
- [127:19]
Kit
Yeah.
- [127:19]
Kristen
So now I'm like, well, my kids are getting older, so I can finally find the authentic version of myself and have time to work on talents and, you know, stuff. I didn't have time for that because I was always the only person that was taking care of the kids, so.
- [127:32]
Kit
Right.
- [127:33]
Kristen
But now, you know, things are changing time for you. Now I'm doing something. Something selfish. And I came here, so I was gonna say.
- [127:40]
Kit
And that takes. Like I told you, it takes. Takes so much strength and vulnerability and a lot of courage to open up and tell the parts of yourself and the parts of your life and experiences that you aren't the most proud of. And that do scare you still, you know what I mean? That's not an easy thing to do. So you should be proud of yourself. And it is a huge part, I think, in, you know, owning your truth and owning your past and knowing that it's there, but also knowing that you can conquer it and now find who you are today and set those boundaries for yourself and for your future. And that's all you can do. So. But you did incredible.
- [128:19]
Kristen
Thank you.
- [128:19]
Kit
You should be so proud of yourself.
- [128:21]
Kristen
Thank you.
- [128:21]
Kit
Of course. Was there anything else that you wanted to include, or you think you got it all?
- [128:25]
Kristen
I think. I think I'm good.
- [128:27]
Kit
Okay. You did amazing.