B (5:23)

And I was going to ask you with that many animals, were they? I mean, I guess you basically just answered it. But was there any type of training or any routine for them or not really.

A (5:32)

Like, it is interesting because earliest, earliest memories, like before the animal hoarding got extreme, like I remember like my father having a dog that was like extremely trained. Well, like, yeah, he like taught a Tina, like do all of like the typical tricks you teach a dog and like, that was, like, super early in my life. But then once everything else progressed, like, there was never anything like training, and even just, like, aside from that, like, never much put in. Like, they'll say, like, we love our animals. And, like, I say it's kind of a metaphor for, like, how they are with, like, me and my siblings as kids. Like, we love our children, but they don't offer anything to, like, back that up. Like, they don't offer, like, emotional support. And even though that was, like, a thing going on, like, obviously it was shameful for them, but, like, they never tried to, like, discuss with their children how it affected them. They never really, like, from my perspective, Like, I never really saw them try to, like, get better. And oftentimes, like, the blame was, like, put onto myself and my siblings and, like, various different ways, which feeds back into, like, what I believe is, like, my father's narcissism. He really cannot, like, take accountability for it. And that comes with hoarding in general. But even as far as, like, anytime you try to confront him, you know, it's not a safe space to do so because it always will get flipped back onto you. Even, like, as a child, like, I knew, like, from as young as I could remember, I could not, like, ask or, like, confront my father about something because it would just end poorly. Like, it was always known, at least in my family, like, with me and my siblings, that, like, my mother was at least the safer person to try to discuss things with. But then, even in that situation, my mother wasn't an emotionally safe person because she very much parentified me, like, used me as an emotional dumping ground. Like, if we did talk about our situation, it was more so her venting to me about how it affected her and, like, her feeling guilty about it, but, like, not really doing anything to, like, change it.

B (7:57)

Your mom and your dad, would you say that they were both, like, the stage four, five hoarders, or was one worse than the other?

A (8:04)

I mean, that's something I definitely think about a lot. And I have, like, discussed a little bit, like, with my siblings as I've gotten older. But I believe it was mostly my father because he definitely, like, when I think back, like, he was the one who would experience anger, like, when we would throw things out, which kind of, like, feeds back into, like, the alcoholic metaphor. Like, if you were to dump out an alcoholic's, like, liquor, they would get pissed off. And that was, like, the same with us. And I would say more. So it was my father that had, like, the anger part of it so, like, I feel like he was the one, like, controlling the hoarding. And then my mom really kind of was like, in a domestic violence relationship with my father as well. So there was definitely a lot of, like, other dynamics in that situation, but she very much enabled him. Okay. But then when I think back to like, the state of the home, like, my mother definitely tried to keep things clean, like, as she could manage them. And like, she would have little areas of the home that were like, super organized. So it's. I feel like I like, say, like, I don't know, like, if she wasn't with my father, I don't know if, like, the hoarding would be part of her story from, like, my perspective. But honestly, who knows? And it is really kind of like a disorder that, like, I don't like, want to say it's like, what's the word when like, other people contagious. Like, it's not really like that, but it is like, common that, like, if you are around a hoarder, especially for long periods of time, like, that can really, like, rub off on you, alter you and like, rub off on you. And definitely, especially with kids in these scenarios, they struggle to break. Yeah.

B (9:56)

And you're not taught, you know, that's like with anything as a child, if you're not taught something you don't know, that is your normal. And I think even though you experienced, you know, bullying and people maybe making fun of you guys because of the smell or the hygiene or whatever, you can know that that aspect of things might feel embarrassing in that moment, but you're still going home to it and your parents aren't really changing anything. So it's like, I feel like it's very confusing for a child to understand in a way.

A (10:24)

Like, I was different from my siblings in that I was very academically driven. I've learned is maybe odd for someone in my scenario, but that was definitely like, what I did to cope, like, hyper fixate. Like, I definitely always knew, even if I didn't know the extreme. As young as I was, like, to what I was dealing with, I always had this idea that, like, I need to go to school. That is my way out of here. Like, I very much put like, a high stake on, like, getting good grades because I knew that, like, that is how your escape survive. And it sucked because school became like, not a safe space for me because no matter what, because we did grow up in a very, like, small town and we were in the same town for like, all of my schooling life. Pretty much like you couldn't escape it like once that was like your reputation. That was the reputation that followed us from elementary school to the end. And in a lot of ways like really rid of like me and especially like I would say my siblings of any access to knowing what normalcy was. And in a way the bullying pushed us more into like the toxic family system. It's like these people are unsafe even though like yes, they are kind of highlighting and pointing out like these things that maybe like our parents need to pay attention to it. Actually in a lot of ways what I've realized is the children bear like majority of the shame and guilt in these scenarios because they're the ones usually facing a lot of like the public ridicule. Like I even had like DYFUs and CPS workers ask like why I didn't help to clean more. And that's apparently like a common thing in situations like this. So it's, it's interesting that like no matter like where you go, there really wasn't many ways for us to safely disclose what we were going through or to like learn. And like it is such a shameful, embarrassing thing that I feel like even the people that tried maybe in a kinder way it was, it didn't land well because we were being bullied and it was like, why are we going to listen to people? Like it really made us feel like our parents were right and like they so at that type of all the time behind closed doors at that time period my parents were telling like they were coaching us to lie. And I very much always struggled. Like I was very much a goody two shoes, teacher's pet, like type of person. And I really struggled with it growing up. And I think my parents also knew that. I think that's why I'm here today doing this. Yeah. But I just knew that it was like wrong to lie. But, but my parents would make sure that we knew. Being honest about our situation at school with guidance counselors, whoever would potentially for me the main guilt point they knew was we did have a bunch of animals and you do get emotionally attached as a child in that scenario. It's like, well if you speak up, animal control will come. We'll take all the animals. And it's like you lose out on like all of that. And as a kid I'm like, oh no, like they won't be safe. And even as a kid, like my parents very much had this like anti shelter mentality which is like wild because they were contributing to the shelter problem the whole entire time. But they'd be like, oh, it's so rude for, like, dogs to go to shelters. Like, blah, blah, blah. Like, so that was like, their main point to be like, if you speak up, like, you're going to lose the animals. And like, I grew up riding horses and it's like you lose access to, like, this one positive thing from my childhood. So they use that against me. I don't know too much. Like, I guess what they use against my siblings. But they very much, like, primed us that, like, telling would end up poorly for us. And then especially once, like, CPS and dus, like, got more, like, commonly involved in our lives, they would, like, make sure we know. Like, if you don't tell them you're happy here, like, besides the hoarding, you'll probably, like, get put into foster care or adoption. And, like, you'll end up in an even worse family where things will be worse off. I mean, that's common in, like, toxic families. It's like black and white. It's like, even though we're treating you, like, horribly, we're going to, like, make it this black and white thing where it's like, well, could be worse. So, like, don't say anything about it.

B (15:02)

Right.

A (15:02)

Which is very. Because, like, I look back and I'm like, how much of it is, like, intent and, you know, disorder? Like, I feel like anyone that has, like, parents that struggle with any mental health thing, like, you try to discern, like, the difference a little bit. But it's hard for me to be like, they didn't intend to do this. When I look back and I see so many, like, intentional, like, ways to, like, cover it up. Because you don't try to cover up something, you know, as you're not aware of.

B (15:33)

Yeah.

A (15:34)

Like, you're not aware of or you don't know as wrong.

B (15:37)

And you feel like there was a notice, noticeable difference between how they would act in public with other people and then how they would be at home.

A (15:44)

With you a lot of the time. For the most part, like, I would say people in, like, from where I'm from, my hometown especially think my parents are good people. And I mean, yeah, like, definition of good. It's different to everyone, but, like, oh, they're great in the community. My father ran for, like, political, like, committee member and, like, was backed by all these people after I, like, left, like, the home. And it's like, weren't you all, like, parents of the kids that were, like, bullying me for, like, 15 plus years? Like, aren't you aware, like, because it is such a small town. It's like, if your kids were bullying me, like, I feel like you're aware of like, what was happening. And also it's just like when you see a hoarded home, you drive by and it's kind of obvious in ways. So it's like, how did like, no one know or like, if they know, like, they just didn't ignore, like, care and like, that's like, to the point of like. Like, I have like a lot of like, looking back and it's like, yes, my parents failed us, but there was like so many, like, layers of adults who could have done something, something differently to like, intervene. And like, there's so many people that like, make excuses for them because they see that, like, that one side, it's like, oh, well, they're so kind to me. Like, and my dad is an addictions counselor. It's like he's helped me get clean. Like, okay, congratulations. And like, I, I believe that's amazing. But like, multiple like people, like, can really exist, especially when we're dealing with a narcissist. And also like, that is in ways I viewed like a cover up for him. Like, he knows that he looks like a good person doing that. I believe that's why he does that from my perspective. So it's like these people that would try to like, downplay my story ever since I spoke up. It's always just based off their minimal interaction with him. But of course, he was my 247 for my whole entire childhood. And I would say, like, anyone who's dealt with him for a long time has like, seen the mask slip per se. Like, he's a click to anger person. He's quick to throw insults if he feels like he's, you know, being like, attacked, talked to, like in any type of negative way. Like, he will throw back and like, that's even as young as I can remember as a kid. Like, he didn't spare his children from that. And like, so he was willing to do that with any and everyone. And people over time definitely would learn. But that was also something I experienced was like losing friends and relationships, which I already had very minimal of because my father would do like, bad business with people with like the puppies because he was like doing fraudulent sales. He was always like lying, saying they were registered. But like, my father would go to like Amish County, Pennsylvania, where there's a lot of puppy mills, would buy like whole litters of puppies for like 200 something dollars, whatever it was back then. And Then would flip them for more money.

B (19:01)

Registered they were breeding or were they breeding or just selling the puppies they were breeding.

A (19:06)

But then at times where, like, I guess he wasn't producing as much as he wanted to and people were coming to him for puppies, he would then go and, like, buy a whole litter.

B (19:14)

Okay.

A (19:15)

And then they usually weren't registered. Akc. So then my dad would fraudulently register them under dogs he did have, but that didn't have litters.

B (19:25)

Okay.

A (19:26)

And then, like, AKC has, like, a one litter a year rule. So, like, he would always do stuff to, like, skate around that and, like, just, like, wild things like that. But, like, people over the years definitely have, like, called him out and, like, said things, but, like, no one's ever really, like, gone as far as to, like, I don't know, report him. Yeah. And I mean, maybe he had, like, Animal control was also, like, a common thing throughout my life. Like, we would know. Like, I don't know. Sometimes it felt like my father would know because he'd be like, hey, animal control is coming. Like, make sure all the animals are hidden. Like, we would be instructed to, like, make sure all the dogs were in the house so they didn't get in trouble. And xyz. So it's just, like, interesting because it's. I feel like who he is is so obvious. But ever since I came forward, like, a lot of people in my hometown have defended him, and I truthfully thought that was where I'd get, like, the most support. Because people have seen him. Right.

B (20:28)

Or, like, they would feel. You would think they would feel for the children.

A (20:31)

Yeah. They don't.

B (20:32)

And how many of the. Of how many children are there in the family?

A (20:35)

I'm the youngest, And I have two older siblings. One five years, and then one by, like, only 14 months. And, like, growing up in that home, like, we were close in a lot of ways. But, yeah, like, everyone saw, like, I would say, honestly, like, I got the least bullied, but only because I feel like, like, as a girl, I had way more access to, like, seeing other, like, girls, like, doing stuff, like, personal hygiene stuff that I didn't know about at home. Like, it was easier for me to, like, be taught that stuff and probably less shame than, like, my siblings, like, having to, like, learn that, like, they never. I don't think ever got anyone to sit them down and be like, this is how you deal with proper, like, hygiene. Like, even, like, growing up, we never, like, I don't ever remember, like, getting taught to brush our teeth, anything really? That you do? Like, when I got, like, my time of the month, my period, I had no help in that department. Luckily, I'd had, like, health class that did teach me, like, some stuff, but, like, I had to deal with that all on my own.

B (21:52)

Did you go to your mom about it when you got your period?

A (21:55)

No, I don't think I did. Like, they. That was also, like, it was interesting with my parents. It's like, I felt so enmeshed with them growing up. I like. And obviously, like, you do love your parents. And, like, I will say, yes, my parents are really messed up. But, like, you always have love for your parents. Like, it's complex, but, like, I look back and I'm like, I don't really, like, understand how I felt that way growing up. I mean, it's part of, like, I think surviving in the moment, being, like, I love them, like, I feel okay. But now looking back, like, I was, like, an emotional dumping ground. Like, I wouldn't ever really go to them with things. Especially, I feel like with my mother, she would come to me, and I knew even if I told her stuff, it would immediately turn into, like, stuff about her, which obviously, like, as a child, I was like, okay, this. This is going nowhere. Like, it was just never a safe space to, like, speak up either. And, like, I would say, like, I. Like, my mom would be like, oh, like, don't tell your dad. Like, we always kind of knew. My father was, like, quick to trigger. So, like, all the time she would tell me, like, don't tell your dad this, don't tell your dad that. But then vice versa. If I did something she knew my dad wouldn't approve of, she wouldn't tell him until she felt like she was upset with me. And. And then she'd be like, hey, Summer, did da da da da da da. Because then she would know. Like, it would, like, she pretty much, like, weaponized my narcissist father in a way to be like, hey, like, when my children are upset at me, I'm going to, like, use these things to then make them, like, feel punished by it. So, like, I kind of just never felt like, even, like, the simplest of things were safe in that way. So I hid it in a lot of ways. And then even aside from that, there was just so much shame in, like, wanting anything from our parents because of the state of the home. And, like, yeah, I guess, like, people are always like, well, that's poverty. And I'm like, no, hoarding isn't exactly poverty. Like, I grew up And I've been friends with a lot of people in the same, like, money class as my parents and the state of the home. There's nothing like that. Like, it has everything to, like, do with, like, their choices to, like, live like that. And people don't seem to understand that it's nothing to do with, like, obviously money plays a part, but in my, like, parents, like, situation, it's only like, like, this much. Like, they chose so many times to, like, put many other things over, you know, dealing with the hoarding, not bringing, like, more stuff into the home, I guess.

B (24:52)

And would you say that over time it got progressively worse?

A (24:56)

Yeah. So honestly, like, like, brief timeline is like, from how I remember it is elementary school age. It was kind of bad, but I don't ever remember my home. Like, my home, my room, like, being affected by their hoarding. Like, my room was still, like, organized and even back then. Like, I remember, like, it being like, our parents were like, my mom more so, like, was like, strict, like, make sure you clean your room as, like, chores and, like, you know, normalcy in that way. But by the end of that, so I lived there from, I'd say, say, like, kindergarten, first grade until, like, fourth or fifth grade. So by the end of, like, my fourth or fifth grade, it was like, completely destroyed by the hoarding inside and out. And then that's where we, like, first got horses, but they weren't like, it's kind of hard to hoard horses, I'd.

B (25:59)

Say, and see the outside. Would they just compile, like, a bunch of stuff and out front.

A (26:04)

Yeah, like, trash. Like, my dad's thing growing up was like, anytime he drove past something on the side of the road, someone's trash, yard sale, someone selling something, he would pull over. Like, he had, like. I guess it is, like, part of the hoarding now that I realize that's what it is. But, like, he would always do that. And, like, sometimes I'd like, be in the car with him and be like, can we not, like. And it was a fight. So it's like, you knew not to, like, be like, yeah, he'd, like, add more things. Like, there was no rationalizing with it being like, we don't need this, right? Or like, you know, we already have whatever of this. Like, he always found a way. And, like, that's also, like, looking back, why I think he's majority of, like, the hoarding issues. I would say, like, my mom maybe has like, a shopping addiction in ways, like, in her way of, like, coping with stuff is like, going out going shopping, pretending normalcy, but then obviously brings more stuff back into like. Yeah.

B (27:01)

And I think too the, the hard part is I think people are very quick to judge, but you never know what somebody else is feeling or thinking. You know, like even with it being a relationship but dynamic between your mom and your dad, there could be a chance too that she just, you know, loved him and was just kind of adjusting to how he was. And I'm sure like you said over time it does rub off, but I feel like at the same time you kind of just accept your circumstances in a way.

A (27:29)

And yeah, that's like I do feel like she definitely found her ways to cope with it. And like in ways like I'm like that's fair. But then when you involve the kids, then I'm like, all right, like now. And even just it's not even exactly the experience all the time that affects me. It's like the lack of accountability. Like there's no like any chance even like the most graceful bid for accountability is like not met well. So it's like they don't really like understand but it's like they're, I mean.

B (28:11)

If that's their lifestyle too and they don't really, they're not aware of, I guess what it is doing to those around them, you know, and that being their children.

A (28:21)

Yeah.

B (28:21)

Then they can't really take accountability for it.

A (28:23)

Yeah. And like in ways it's like hard because it's early, early on. Like and my father's favorite line is like this is just farm life. This is just a farmhouse. And it's like I grew up with many other horse riding friends. My second mom growing up had her own farm. I spent a lot of time there and like never once was her house in like the state of my parents home. So it's interesting that like he just always like found ways to justify it to us if it was ever brought up in any capacity. So it's like the early on stuff like honestly like I don't know, like if it emotionally, like I don't remember it. So like who knows. But like I know CPS and Dyfus was involved at that point like in elementary school time period. But then we. I remember moving really specifically because like my siblings and I had so much hope when we were moving that the conditions would, you know, like we're moving into a new home, like fresh start, like everything will be great and like I don't even honestly remember but it quickly went from like a very new like 5 bedroom home to like what it is today, what I've posted online, like, it looks like people tell me, like, all the time, like, that looks like an abandoned house. And for all intents and purposes, like, that's pretty much what it's got into. But, like, when we moved in, everything was kind of like normal for a bit. And that's kind of the progression of it is it was normalcy, appliances were working, like, everything in the house normal as it would be like in every other house. And then slowly the dirt starts piling up. Slowly they start gathering things they don't have room for. And then it usually, if it keeps progressing, gets to a point where your plumbing is affected, the electricity is affected. And because of the animal hoarding also in my situation, there was rooms in my home that had carpet that now are literally of black mold from 20 plus years of uncleaned, like, animal urine and feces. And like, truthfully, like, growing up, like, that was just like my normal. I subscribed to it, like, until I left. And now it's like one of those things looking back that is like, the biggest thing that affects me is like, realizing, like, how much I dealt, like, within like, terms of the environment by the end of it all. And like, and also it's like, it's still how my parents live and they still, like, can't see it. Like, it's right in front of them. But, like, it gets to that point and like, it's just like hard to even like, see how it got there. Because, like, when we moved in, it was a fresh, clean start. And by like the end, I think of like, middle school age. Dyfus and CPS was a common occurrence in my life. They were in and out.

B (31:40)

Do you think the school was calling and reporting?

A (31:42)

Yeah, yeah. I think in like, small town, our teachers, like, in my fourth grade, I know a teacher called because it was like the one and only time a teacher pulled me and my siblings aside. And this is like, I don't remember, like, too much. So that's also kind of why my story is a little crazy everywhere. But I don't remember, like, losing electricity as far back as elementary school, but I remember my, like, the experience of my 4th grade teacher pulling me and my sibling out of class and asking us, like, like, and he, he. I remember he dealt with it really well. I don't remember the exact, like, things he said. It was so long ago, but he pretty much, like, prefaced it really well. And also I was very prone to not wanting to lie. So he kind of like, put it in a way where it was like, I just had to say yes or no. And he's like, I drove by because, like, small town. Like, he's like, I have to your house every day, like, driving to school for work. And I've just happened to notice, like, there's never any lights on. And like, you know, early morning, I guess it's like, dark out when teachers go to school. So he's like, I just wanted to ask, like, do you happen to not, like, have electricity at home? And like, I remember my brother, like, not wanting to, like, say anything, but, like, I was like, yeah. And I know that that obviously, like, ended up in a report. And, like, Dyfus definitely was involved. But, like, that's also like, the crazy part about my childhood is like, so much good and bad is, like, taken out by, like, those, like, traumatic periods. Like, I know that Dyfus and CPS got involved, but, like, I don't remember, like, any of the stuff after. And then from then on. Like, I know in middle school, like, they had to have been calling a lot because at that point, like, it was very normal for us to go into school with unclean clothes. And like, this is disgusting. But, like, we. I know I would not shower or be able to shower for, like, weeks on end. And like, as a girl with really thick hair, that was very hard for me as a child. But also, I know my siblings, it might have even been worse in their case. Like, so there was obviously, like, thinking back, I'm like, I can understand why kids bullied us in, like, in a way, because I understand the natural instinct that it's like, this is really weird. I really can't understand why a kid would come to school like this. Like, no child has the knowledge to be like, the kid isn't choosing to do this. Like, it's stuff at home, et cetera. Like, they just thought we were gross and, like, choosing to live like that. And, like, that wasn't the truth.

B (34:33)

Yeah, they don't know the depth of it at that age.

A (34:35)

And I remember, like, not too much specific stuff, but, like, the bullying was really bad at that time period. Me and my siblings, like, were. No, like, people would just, like, call us, like, dirty. Like, talk about, like, how we stank, like, cat pee, like, all of the time. Like, it was kind of commonplace. And honestly, like, I'll be honest, out of, like, my siblings. And I. I think I was affected the least by it. Like, I definitely had a way of, like, because I was so focused on getting out of there with school, I'm like, this isn't going to be my life all of the time. Like, I know that I'll choose differently. Like, when I'm out of this. Like, they won't know me then. Like, you know, like, I really did try to, like, focus forward, but I like, looking back. Like, what actually affects me more. Like, oh, wow, I always get upset about this stuff, but siblings, take your time, huh? I just get, like, so upset. Like, how, like, hard my parents failed them because of, like, witnessing, like, how much the bullying affected them at the time and like, all the stuff they had to, like, go through. Like, I. I feel like it was worse for them, like, in general, like, being a child of hoarders. Like, the main thing, like, everyone I've ever, like, met says is, like, it's very isolating. Like, you have no friends, xyz. But like, I definitely was able to, like, find something outside of it that, like, gave me, like, a reference to normal and like, my brothers didn't. And like, I don't know. That hurts me a lot because just like, now as an adult looking back, it's like, I would never treat my children that way. Like, like, they, like, now looking back, because I also was parentified to them, even though I was the youngest. Like, I feel bad. I wish I did more in this situation. Even though it's like, how much can you. What could I have done? And like, especially, like, in the middle school time period, like, I. I just always was very mature for my age. Like, everyone always told me that, like, oh, you have an old soul. Like, okay, cool. But, like, it's just because I very much was an observant, like, hyper, vigilant, like, type of person. Like, I noticed everything. And, like, growing up with a narcissist father, like, that's very quick to, like, change his behaviors. Like, I very much was always like, like, focused on, like, conversations and people and things like that in, like, a way that I feel like other people didn't. Like, I've always been able to, like, spot a controlling man from a mile away. Like, I'll say thanks to my dad for that at least. But, like, other than that, like, I felt like school, like, it was hard for me to, like, confront people, but I did the best I could. Like, I was so, like, mature because of everything I went through. And it felt like that was also, like, a big part of my childhood. Like, it felt like my responsibility all the time. And there was like, definitely, like, ways my parents made me, like, fill that role, like, kind of like, prep me to be that way. So it's like, when my siblings were getting bullied, I was the one going to, like, the principal's office and being like, please do something. Like, it was this, this, that, and the third person. Like, it wasn't my parents doing that. Like, it was me. Like, I didn't want that. And, like, honestly, like, even looking back, like, I hated it. But, like, I don't think, like, I ever went to, like, go and be like, this is for me. Like, I don't want to be bullied anymore. Like, it was always out of, like, concern for my siblings. And, like, it's funny. Cause, like, my parents rewrite history. It's like, oh, we did everything. Like, we went to the school and it's like, no, Like, I was the one. Like, and that's also like, something. Like, I believe my parents probably were worried about it as, like, when I was a kid, but I was so emotional, I would go to school and cry all of the time. And, like, I didn't have words for the situation I was going through. I didn't know what to call it at the time. But, like, I was always going to school and being really emotional and even, like, aside from the hoarding, like, my parents would fight all of the time. And like, that really, like, emotionally affected me. So, like, I'd go to school and I'd cry about that. And it's like, my teachers, especially at that point, like, really loved me and, like, tried to, like, take care of me. And I definitely. I don't remember, but I know that I probably was, like, going to school and, like, divulging a lot. And that was, like, a period where, like, CPS and stuff was, like, in and out of our life. And it definitely had to do with, like, me having a little bit too open of a mouth, which, sorry. Not sorry, but. And then along with, like, the, like, the bullying and that's also, like, funny. It's like, my parents will say, like. Like, they've said, like, oh, evil kids. And, like, the school didn't deal with it well, but it's like, that's totally, like, glossing over. Why were people bullying your kids so hard? Like, yes, bullies can be bad for, like, no reason. For sure. Like, happens all the time. But any, like, rational adult, like, or parent would, like, do the critical thinking to be, like, if I changed our living situation, our kids would probably not be getting bullied anymore for it. So it's just, like, funny that they blame everything else, like, for the situation. But it's like, everything else before that led to it. Like, yes, I have some bullies that I can, you know, probably hold animosity for. For forever. But, like, I actually look back now as an adult and I'm like, I have more grace. Because it's like, how were children at that age, especially, like, elementary school, middle school, supposed to know what we were going through? They didn't.

B (40:33)

So, like, it's not really something that's.

A (40:35)

Talked about, you know, even, like, I was in a. Like, pretty. Like, my school honestly had a very good education program. Like, we had really good, like, health phys Ed. Like, we talked about all the different types of abuse, but at that time I was like, I'm not going through any of that. And really it was like, neglect, hoarding. Like, I didn't know the words for it. But even now, looking back, like, hoarders in general lack so many boundaries that you do, like, face abuse in pretty much every realm because they just don't have any boundaries. But their children, they don't really, I guess, know to set them. I don't know. Like, it's just interesting because. And also, I don't even know how, like, I have gotten to be such, like, a rational person and like, maybe education, I guess, but, like, it's just interesting that, like, I'm the polar opposite of, like, how they understand everything. And I feel like from their perspective, I flipped a switch, like, and one and I feel like a lot of, like, estranged parents or parents who lose contact. Like, it's one day my child flipped a switch. But that, like, actually, like, leads into, like, after middle school, high school period was like, the worst time of my life. I don't remember it much, but the bullying was bad. And like, pretty much like, I couldn't go through a day of school without, like, praying, like, for it to be over. Like, it was horrible, but it was actually like the home life at the time that was even worse. And then anytime, obviously our home life was worse, the bullying was worse because, like, the conditions we would show up to school in would be worse. And at that point I would say, like, high school age. That's, like, when the hoarding progressed to, like, the extreme, which is like, starts off with clutter, then it gets to, like, you know, the room started to not, like, all be usable, filled with things. But, like, before high school, like, I would say, like, our rooms at least my siblings and I were, like, still ours, maybe cluttered. Cause, like, we didn't have. We didn't know how. Like, we were never Taught cleanliness routine. So, like, we did try, even as children in our own rooms, but we didn't have access to much. Like, we didn't even have a trash can in our home at most times. Like, trash bags. Like, not even our, like, main form of trash bags. A lot of times were, like, the dog food bags. Like, after they would, like, take out all the dog food, they would use that empty bag. And this is actually something super gross. But by that point, I believe this is like. Like, I now look back and I'm like, wow. Like, I just, like. I mean, this is. It was gross to me in general, but I now look back and I'm like, wow, that's like an extreme level of hoarding by that point with the animals. Even when we, like, would have dog food, like, easily available, we had this, like, Rubbermaid, like, trash can in our house. That's the only trash can we would have not for trash. And. And my father would, like, make us, like, whenever we would clean out, like, the fridge freezer and, like, get rid of, like, old food, he'd make us dump it in there, and that is what we would feed to the dogs.

B (43:57)

Wow.

A (43:58)

Yeah. And like, even, like, there.

B (44:00)

And I'm sure that made them sick.

A (44:02)

Honestly, looking back, because, like, I ended up working as a vet tech way later in life. And, like, obviously, like, you learn, and I'm like, all of these things dogs are. And, like, I am so anal with my own dogs, and nowadays that I'm like, how did it hurt? Like, and honestly, like, yeah, I also, like, dealt with, like, a lot of animal death. Like, in animal hoarding, it's just commonplace. Like, there's so many animals and. But it's actually just insane to me that, like, animals weren't like. I guess. But I guess it also is, like, an adjustment thing because I know my dog would herself. Yeah. You know, like, so if I was.

B (44:40)

Giving her stuff like that, I mean, because, like, it's. I mean, you know how it is with, you know, even changing their food and introducing new things.

A (44:46)

So it's like my dog ate, like, three Twizzlers one day, and I had to, like, pay to, like, take her to the vet. And it was, like, thousands.

B (44:54)

Yeah.

A (44:54)

Like, you know, so it's like, meanwhile, like, I do look back and, like, I'm like, how? Like, I don't know. But I do believe, like, the. Like, I call it, like, the sludge bin. So that's probably what I refer to it. But, like, that, like, started. I do believe, out of necessity, because in A way not.

B (45:12)

I was gonna say it kind of makes me of, like, a way to prevent wasting.

A (45:16)

Yeah. And I do believe at that point, like, we did have, like, periods of, like, starvation. Like, my. And, like, that is like, my parents were bad with money, but even looking back, like, my father made good money at times. It's like, I also think that was, like, part of the hoarding is, like, constantly, like, being impulsive and spending money where it didn't need to be spent.

B (45:36)

And so was the starvation happening because they didn't have money to get.

A (45:41)

They wouldn't like, my. There would be times where, like, we wouldn't have food. My mom would be like, eat leftovers. The leftovers in the fridge would be, like, you know, old, moldy leftovers. And I should say is by this point with the hoarding, and this is, like, commonplace. Once you get to, like, there's, like, five stages. I think commonly referred to stage, like, one and two is, like, clutter. You're starting to, like, kind of, like, hoard items, and it's obviously, like, affecting your Life. Then, like, 3 and 4 is where it starts, like, taking over rooms, like, really, like, affecting the household. And then, like, especially when animal hoarding is involved, that's, like, where it starts, like, really getting dirty. And then, like, 4 and 5 is, like, you lose, like, utilities, etc. And then the worst thing of all is bugs and rodents. And that is, like, the biggest trauma from my childhood is cockroaches. And they were everywhere by that point. So it's also, like, the food we did have access to, even when we were starving, was not exactly like, yum, I want to eat that. Yeah. So it was also, like, a thing of, like, hey, like, you're starving, but your only options are that. And honestly, that's definitely one of, like, the biggest things that has affected me, like, long term, mentally. Like, I didn't realize it at the time, but, like, still to this day, I, like, struggle with eating. Like, I have ocd. And one of, like, my intrusive thoughts is, like, having bugs in my food even when I'm like, clearly I don't live in that house anymore. It's very not likely, but it sticks with you. Yeah. Like, it's very, like. And I wouldn't have realized it at the time, obviously, because it is your life. But, like, all of those, like, instances, like, gradually turned into little mini trauma triggers. And that was definitely the biggest one is, like, we were starving, but all we had was, you know, food was dale. Stale, rotten food, whatever it was Like, I know probably, I don't remember too vividly, but there was probably a point where I tried to eat dog food. I was like, this is the only thing. Let me crunch on this. But like, it was mostly like, once we got to that point, like, I like, our parents wouldn't have money to, like, they'd be like, oh, we have to wait till next paycheck. But then I also, like, remember at that point, it's like they'd have no money, but then they'd have money for other things. It's like, that's one of the priorities were never, like, looking back. Like, especially now as an adult, it's like, that's where like, a lot of the things change, like, and the perspectives change. Because I'm like, as an adult, I don't get it.

B (48:23)

Like, like, when you guys weren't eating, were they not eating as well? Or they were still.

A (48:28)

This is definitely like a weird trauma with, like, me and my siblings. My parents wouldn't have food at home. And still to this, like, they eat out all of the time. Like, they constantly go to diners. They constantly, like, get takeout food. And like, also, that definitely comes with, like, when you get to late stage, hoarding appliances sometimes stop working. Like, the ovens, microwaves are filled with cockroaches. Like, it's a very not fun state. So, like, that's also probably why. But a lot of like, my childhood, my parents would like, wake us up for breakfast and if you didn't like, get up to like, go with them, you didn't eat. And like, I would always, honestly, like, I was very much like an early bird as a kid. And I would say, like, growing up, I was definitely the more enmeshed one with my parents. Like, and in ways, like, looking back, I think I knew, like, how to stay safe with my father was to really just, like, play into what he wanted. And, like, because he was a narcissist, like, he really loved, like, oh, you get good grades and like the horse riding stuff. Like, all of that really, like, stemmed from, like, his need to have, like, a perfect child to, like, put on a pedestal. But, like, he never really, like. Like, they just didn't understand, but, like, they like, it's hard to be, like, you didn't understand, but at the same time you were like, placing like, building blocks, like, to like, alienate like, us as siblings against each other. Like, I don't know if it was purposeful, but, like, it stemmed from, like, things like that where it's like, I did get Good grades and thrived in that capacity. Like, even though, like, we were living, like, literal hell at home. But like, my siblings rightfully struggled, but my parents pretty much also bullied them at home for that. Like, called them names, things like that. And that was like, another thing. Like, they would wake us up in the morning and they'd be like, oh, your brothers are, like, lazy. They don't want to, like, get up and go. Like, you're the only one. And like, I would even, like, be at breakfast and be like, shouldn't we bring them back food? Because, like, even back then, I was like, well, they're not gonna have food to eat. Like, they'll be upset, but, like, they did it. And like, little things like that. I think back and I'm just like. Even if, like, like, I don't know, like, it's just like, as a parent, even aside from like, the hoarding, like, how could you not be, like, at the very least, let me bring my children back, like a clean meal. Like, especially if I'm doing that. And then it's like, funny. Cause it's like, you're doing that, I guess. Cause there's no groceries at home, but also you're spending a lot of money eating out all of the time. And like, as kids, like, we definitely picked up on that kind of stuff. But we also then knew it was not to be discussed. Like, it was not to be brought up. And if it was, it would be a fight that you wouldn't really like. Like, there was not really winning fights back then. Especially, like, with my father. He would just purposefully try to, like, make you feel guilty, make you feel bad. And like, it was always funny that, like, he would, like, say, like, we put a roof over your head and we paid bills. Because I definitely got to a point in my later sassy teenage years where I was like, what do you mean?

B (51:52)

Like, how long did you guys go without electricity and plumbing?

A (51:56)

Honestly, it's hard for me to remember the exact time periods. And it's like, I know it happened when I was younger, but I don't super remember that clearer clearly. But then in high school, actually, the longest periods were my junior and senior year. And I honestly don't remember that time much. I have, like, photos from that time, like, living in the home. And it's probably like one of the worst states it's been in, except for, like, current day, my parents living there. But at that time, like, it was off for a while. And like, it had been on and off before that. But the Reason it got shut off for a long time is actually something crazy which like some people are like, wow, he loves his kids and he did that. But like looking back, I'm like, no, that's, that's crazy. My father around that time period, like because he couldn't pay his bills or who knows, maybe he just didn't want to pay them, I don't know. He would go to abandoned houses and steal the electric meter off of it. And then when, because we lived off like a lane, whenever people would come to read the electric meter, which is I guess like I've learned like how, you know, they come up with your bill, he would switch the abandoned meter on and then like our electric bill was like lower. And he had like done that I guess for a long time. And also I guess like he was smart enough to do that. So like around my 10th, 11th grade year, he was stealing the electric meters off of houses, putting them on the house. And I guess like that would make the bill cheaper. But eventually I assume the electric company caught on and from what I remember like he got arrested I think and like was put in jail for that and pretty sure that's a felony. I don't know, don't quote me on that. But he did get arrested for that. And then after that because of that they stopped servicing electric to our house completely. And honestly looking back, I don't think that was technically ethical of them. Like still my parents did really messed up things obviously. But it was like the dead of winter from what I remember. Like I think like if I can remember well, like it was probably like around like January, December ish timeframe, maybe a bit before. So like it was cold, like freezing cold at night. And we obviously now lived in a house, like a five bedroom house with no heat, no ac, like anything like throughout the time with no electricity. And that was honestly the worst period of my life. At some point, like I know like Dyfus or CPS got involved in. And that was when I was finally removed from the home. I don't know like technically what it would be considered, but I was like ordered to live outside of the home while my parents like cleaned up the.

B (55:03)

House and how old were you?

A (55:06)

I was 16 or 17. Like I know it sucked because I'm the youngest and I was just under like 18, so like 16 or 17. So I had to be removed. But my siblings were allowed to stay in the home as long as, because they were consenting adults at that point.

B (55:24)

And they decided to stay.

A (55:25)

Yeah, it was definitely part of the enmesh. And I mean also at that point, like, it's also kind of like part of like narcissism, control. Like we weren't allowed to have jobs. It's not like we were able to like get ways to get out. And like that's also why it's like I definitely had the best feeling because I got out for education. But yeah, like, I at the time, like I was the youngest, so I was the only one ordered to live outside of the home. And that is also like kind of one of the periods of like bad mental health for me. Because it definitely like, even though there was like levels of awareness of what was going on with my life that really like made it obvious that I was very isolated from the life that I lived. Like, I really rarely had friends growing up. Like never had sleepovers, like never really did anything quite normal. Cause we couldn't have guests over to our house. And at that point I realized like, that was like my life because I needed somewhere to stay or else I would get placed into a local foster home. And. And obviously like I didn't want that. So I was like, who can I call? Like, I really had little to no one at the time. And I was dating someone at the time and he was cheating on me and I was aware of that, but I was about to break up with him. But then that happened in my life and I went and stayed with him. And honestly, like don't remember that too much, but I ended up staying with him for. I think it was like the rest of my junior year. I think if I can remember very clearly. And at some point I ended up back in the home. But I honestly couldn't tell you if that's because CPS allowed it or if it's because I started going back on my own for whatever reason. But I started going back to the home. And then by my senior year it was still going on and I still didn't have like a place to go. Me and the boyfriend weren't dating anymore. And my one sibling had found like a place to go that he had been staying at. My older sibling, like my eldest sibling, I believe he. I don't think he was at the home. Cause I remember this period being very isolating. Like it was just me and my parents and like, yeah, it's a five bedroom house, but it had. It was very creepy, like literally abandoned. Like because it was like no electricity, no running water, all of that. And I was going through it alone. Even though like, yeah, like it's like, me and my siblings really did like rely on each other in a lot of ways. So at that point I was very isolated and because of like not having electricity, and I don't honestly remember at the point because it happened during cold and warm months. But in order to have access to like either an AC or heat, my parents would use like a generator and would just like plug it into like something in their window so that that like singular room would be taken care of. Mind you looking back, kind of funny, they always chose their room and never chose their kids room for that. In that situation, like roles reversed, I would not be making that choice. So at that point I. And it wasn't even like they ordered me to sleep in their room, they just did that in their room. And it's like, hey, if you want to come sleep in here on the floor or sofa, like at different points it was different. Like things like, feel free. So at that point also with the animal hoarding being as bad as it was, along with like cockroaches being a normal bug thing, with the animal hoarding, fleas were everywhere all of the time. And like, it's, it's pretty bad when like they're to the point of biting humans because they don't usually like mess with like humans. Like, even if you've had like a dog with fleas, like minimally, like, yeah, it's like a struggle to deal with, but you don't usually notice it yourself much, I'd say, like, unless it gets bad. And because my parents had so many animals and also they just never really honestly cared for them medically in any way in my opinion. Like, besides basics, like, they had to like give them a rabies like vaccination so they want to get in trouble with like the township and that's literally all they would do. So it's. The fleas at that time were horrible. So I remember and it's one of my OCD things now. Like, I still struggle to sleep at night because I can just like sensory imagine it. Like it was just a trauma that always happened at nighttime. And the fleas would be like biting your legs and like jump. Like you could just feel them because there were so many of them and I couldn't sleep. And especially like when I guess it was like super cold and I had to sleep in my room, they were even worse. And pretty much at that period, it was like a constant daily, like go to school, come home. That was my like torture pretty much. And mind you, like junior year is when you're taking your LSATs when you're applying. And I did all of that stuff, but I literally do not remember. Like, I do not, Like, I cannot recollect any of that because it was like, during this, like, and it's funny, it's like, I remember a lot of the trauma, but any of like the normal stuff that happened at school at that time, it's not in the brain. And so it's like I was going through all of that. And mind you, I got good grades all throughout high school. Like, I rarely got below a C. And now even looking back, I used to hate on myself for Cs and I'm like, I got Cs living in like, the conditions I lived in. Like, no thank you. No more hate for little Summer. The sea is fine. And because of all of that, I literally would. I had a lot of pressure. I had a lot of pressure on myself because of wanting to get out of there. But then also my parents definitely put a lot of pressure on me to fulfill that perfect role. And I do think looking back, that had a lot to do with, we look like good parents and maybe look like this isn't happening if, like you're looking good to the public. But we didn't have electricity. So like, I would sit by candlelight and do my homework. Like, and we would have like, computer related things. I would stay after and I would like work at the computer lab at school to do that. And then a canon thing my father would always forget to do is come pick us up if we were staying after school. So like, I would stay after school to do that all the time. And then I would have to walk home because he would forget to come and get me. And that was also like, something I forgot to mention is, like, along with the electricity and like all the other utilities, like our phones would constantly be shut off. And that was like a big anxiety point for myself, my siblings, even things I remember, like with my mom, like, we'd be out and about and they wouldn't have paid the bill and then your phone would be shut off. And it's like I'm literally stranded somewhere and I can't call anyone or use my phone. And throughout school especially, like, I'd be like, oh, I need to call someone to pick me up, or I'm sick at like, whatever it was. I would like go to call my parents even in emergency situations and I'm like, oh, can't. I'm like, stranded. And like, that definitely causes like, a lot of like, turmoil long term. But like, at that point, like, that was so common. And so like, I would always stay after school, have to walk home, and then be doing my homework by candlelight. I don't know. Crazy. Would never be me. Like, it's funny. It's like it would never be me now I don't have that motivation anymore because I don't have, you know, the trauma and stuff behind it.

B (63:50)

And I think like you said you knew too. It was like you kept looking ahead.

A (63:53)

Of like, all right, that was like pretty much my way of coping. And I do think, like, it was like extremely forward thinking. But it is like, like, it's probably why I'm so hyper vigilant and anxious now. And all these things I deal with and that are issues for me. But also it's like I talk about this in therapy all the time, but it's like, you know, there's like, each side of it. It's like I'm also grateful because, like, I have to look back and be like, that's what like, little Summer needed to like, get through everything, like, survive at all. Like, it was not easy for sure. And like, I really can't look back and remember it. So it's like, good on her. Like, I did what I had to do back then to get through it all. And it is crazy, but at that like time, like the electric being off, like, I was even like going to like school dances and stuff. And that's like what I have the picture from. I'll show you. These are like what I've posted online that like, have gotten a lot of traction. But this is from 2010, so this was probably like a little bit before what I'm talking about now. But it was my like sophomore year homecoming I think. And that's like the living room in my parents house. And yeah, you can just like see all of like the trash. Like the marks in the carpet are like, you know, animal like things they never cleaned up. And like that bird in the back, like I now look back, like she was so, like, along with everything else, like, neglected, she actually like passed away when I was in college. Because part of like the animal hoarding, like, my parents didn't manage the animals and one of the dogs killed the bird. And that was like a common thing like throughout my childhood with so many animals, like they would accidentally kill each other and it was, it was just very traumatic. Yeah, yeah. And like looking back, it's just interesting because at that time you're like, this is normal. This is my normal. I accept it. It like, it is what it is.

B (65:49)

But it's not like you can control your parents.

A (65:51)

Yeah.

B (65:52)

Yeah.

A (65:52)

And then this is from my junior year homecoming the next year. So, like, from what I'm talking about, I'm pretty. If I'm right on the timeline, I do believe that's like a no electricity in the house.

B (66:04)

You know, it's so crazy though. Like, it almost looks fake because, like.

A (66:07)

Yeah, everyone says that to me. They're like, you Photoshop this?

B (66:11)

No, like, in the sense of like. Like, you're just this like, glow in the center and it's just like. It's crazy though.

A (66:19)

Yeah, I think it's. Honestly, it's probably like, people always say I'm like, it's probably just because of the weird lighting because I'm sure all we have is a generator.

B (66:27)

Like, I say it in like, a way though, that it's like, it's almost interesting of like, how you're just like this light out of like, everything that was going on.

A (66:35)

I've always said, like, my parents did a lot of things wrong, but, like, my name is not one of them. Like, Summer Joy. Like, I remember also, even, like growing up, like, I always say I was so very forward thinking and it's because I kind of like, made my name like, he does look. I was like, I need to be like, you know, joyful and whatever.

B (66:54)

All of this little cat in the back.

A (66:56)

Yeah, it is so the ears. I'm glad you. Honestly, not many people have noticed that. I think. Even though I posted it a lot.

B (67:03)

I know I do.

A (67:04)

And also a lot of people, like, noticed in the background of the photo, like, the peeling wallpaper. There was a fire in my house at one point that my parents never repaired. The soot is all over. Like, literally looks like an abandoned house. Yeah. And like, that fireplace, like, during the period of no electricity, like, that was the main form of heat for the rest of the house. Like, the animals would all literally be like, piled by, like, the fireplace and. Yeah, it's just like crazy to like, even think that. Like, and honestly, like, thinking back, like, these pictures I have, it's like, wild to think, like, I only really have proof of this because my parents didn't respect my wishes back then. Like, I definitely knew enough and because we were bullied so much to be embarrassed of the photos and be like, please don't post these online. Like, it's the background. Like, and even the first photo I showed you, that was after we cleaned, like, the floor. Like, we pushed aside as much trash as we could like me and like I only had like my one close friend like all throughout school that like, and she was fine coming over to my house. Like to anyone listening, if you've ever been a friend to a child like me, like, like you're a blessing because like that's a lot of what.

B (68:14)

Yeah, I'm sure you didn't feel as judged.

A (68:16)

Saved my life. Like she came over, always treated me like I was normal and like the stuff I showed you. Like she's the one who did my hair and makeup for homecoming. Like my mom didn't do that. Like she did all of that for me. And it's just like interesting because people are like, that's like crazy. And I'm like, it's not like even those pictures are not the worst of it because it's even my parents did try to make it a little better. But then that's even what I think shows the dissonance for them. They really don't get it. It's such a thick layer of delusion, I guess. I don't really know how else to put it, but I do think it's common with hoarding disorder. The shame and guilt of it just in general by nature makes it hard to face. And then when you get so deep in it, it gets harder. But they never were like willing to see it for what it was. And it's like crazy to me because they've been posting these. Those photos are from Facebook. They're on Facebook. And I didn't want them posted. But then my mom would post them and tag me and them and I'd be like, well now I'm gonna get bullied for this. Please don't. And it's just insane. Cause honestly, without the stuff my parents post, like I didn't have much like to be like, wow, like this is my. Like I don't even have. And that's like another thing that like children of hoarders deal with is like loss of memories just in general. Like you don't get many normal like childhood moments, like sleepovers, normal friendship type of things, but then you also just don't have many memories in general. Like I know there's probably a box of photos somewhere at my parents house, but it's like there's not really much to look back on to be like, this was my childhood and, and probably part of that comes with the nature of not really wanting to take photos of like the conditions we lived in. But at that point it's like interesting. Like my parents even still to this day freely. Like post it online. Like they don't seem to see behind it. Like they think it's like they really can't see it. And it's like interesting cause like people like what I've been validated through a lot with like sharing my story and like those pictures is like I thought sharing them one or two people might get it. Like I was just trauma dumping on the Internet as people do and was just like using as an outlet. Like I've always been that like outwardly emotional. I like writing like whatever. So I was like sharing it and I didn't think it would resonate with people. And then people were like immediately noticing the background and like noticing how bad it was. And even though sometimes people would probably be like, that is like completely horrible. Which is like, you know, not something you want to say. But it's like that is validating to me in this situation because I like didn't remember it being that bad in ways. Like even when I started to kind of learn, like it was hard to conceptualize it. And you black out so much that it's like, wow, I feel like really validated that like other people see it like for as bad as it really was. And like even sometimes people like, they're like you were like smelling ammonia and like all of these crazy fumes and like mold like for like however many plus years of your life. Like it's kind of insane. Like all of like the stuff that like even just health wise like you have to put up with in those situations, but like they pretend it's normal. So like.

B (71:51)

And speaking of health, I'm assuming you guys never did really like any doctor's appointments.

A (71:56)

That's definitely like something I wanted to make sure I did was like there was a few times, but not many. And then like something like I'll discuss like more in like the after effect is like when I finally went to like the eye doctor and the dentist and stuff that was like a re triggering point for like my trauma. Like it all like came like piling back up because it like made it so blatantly obvious like, like physically like how much my parents neglected me. Like it was right in front of me because of that stuff. So yeah, like they never really took us like there times where like I definitely was taken to the er. And this is also something. It's like me and I know my other sibling did like we had migraines all of the time and I still get them but as a child I would get them weekly and I get like the migraines with, like, vision aura. So, like, I would lose my vision, like, weekly. Like, at school. I'd be, like, throwing up, like, all of this stuff. And looking back, I'm like, I was probably triggered a lot by the overwhelming smell of our house. Like, the mold, the ammonia, like, the stress of it, all that, like, you're always just internalizing, like, whatever it was, because, yeah, now I get them, but nowhere near as bad. And it probably had a lot to do with, like, the conditions. And, like, that's even just something. It's like, another layer of, like, something they won't take responsibility for. Or, like, it's just hard to see how they don't because it's, like, very obvious. I feel like, how you're harming your kids. And, like, I have OCD now. And, like, one of my things is, like, I can't imagine having a kid and not being constantly anxious that my own kid would be sick all of the time, you know, like, with the conditions that we lived in. So, yeah, they never really took us. Like, yeah, there's probably a few times. And my father loves to debate me about things, so he'll be like, we took her to the doctor once. Like, okay, congrats, Congratulations. But, yeah, like, rarely. It's not like, we were taken on, like, yearly, well, visits. And, like, part of me does wonder if that's, like, trying to avoid scrutiny. Like, trying to avoid it being obvious what we went through. And, like, there was points where, like, my dad is literally a therapist. You would think, like, would be like, we should probably do some therapy because of even, like, just stuff outside of the hoarding stuff. You would think your kid's getting so bullied. Even if they don't accept it's because of them, maybe they need more help. But I. Like, part of me is like, well, probably sending us to therapy would uncover other stuff.

B (74:35)

Exactly.

A (74:35)

Because it is what it did for me 20 plus, whatever, years later. Which is interesting, but that's kind of how it usually works. I feel like I. I've seen, like, since, like, talking about it, like, it feels like the later 20s to 30s. A lot of people who have, like, traumatic childhoods kind of have this, like, turnover where they start, like, kind of experiencing stuff. But so at the. With the picture, like, that time period of my life to, like, go back to that, it's something I know I'm gonna have trouble talking about, but it is fine because we had no electricity. And, like, I would need to, like, choose, like, at night where to sleep. It was either like in my room, freezing cold with like the fleas and like all of that stuff, or I could sleep in my parents room and a common thing at that time. And I, for the longest time, like I've only like kind of recently realized like how unnormal this was. And like that just shows like how long it really takes for you to like deconstruct stuff. Because my parents would engage in like sexual intercourse and like all different kinds of things while I was sleeping in their room. And as a child, like I would wake up to it or like whatever it was and, and like I truly thought that that was normal like for them to do until I finally realized that that is obviously very abnormal. And I used to like excuse as a kid be like, oh, they probably just forgot I'm sleeping in here. Like X, Y, Z. Like I'm an adult and I can't even do anything if I know my dog is in the room. Like there's no way like that. And like it happened a lot for me at that time. Like there's no way you forget that you're child is sleeping in the room. And that just like goes to show even just like the lack of boundaries. Like overall with hoarders, it's like they truly like, I don't know if they think it was okay, like I don't know like from their perspective what it was, but like from me, like I've learned and like, like that's no contact, like sexual assault. Like I did not consent to like being there for that, experiencing that like. And also that was like my first like, like exposure to like sex. I did have a boyfriend before, but I was little Miss Virgin Mary. Like I wasn't that type. So it's like that was my exposure to that part of life. And that definitely is something that like still affects me to this day. And like it's just crazy to like think that like back then and like it just kind of like shows like in general kind of how we deal with situations like that as kids. Like even aside from that I just laid there and felt like that was what I had to do. Like I had no choice. Like if I got up, it would make my parents uncomfortable if I got up to leave. And it's like why at that point was my parents like comfortability like the most important thing? And like I can assure you, like it was also the most important thing to that, you know, like we're sleeping in their room, they're having the like, you know, the only like exposure to electricity in the Home with a generator. Like, they only really, like, were concerned with themselves, obviously. And, like, looking back, that's definitely, like, something that's like, solidified with me, like, kind of intent and like, other things. And, like, there's just, like, so many choices there that, like, lead you to that, like, point. Like, there's no way that that's a mistake. Like, I've come to realize that, like, you don't choose to do that, like, time and time again and, like, think it's a mistake as a parent. And, like, that was like, the worst time of my life, which honestly, like, I blocked out for so long. Like, I didn't really, like, process that. And like, it's interesting because then it's also. It's like, it probably was then, like, not really fully, like, dealt with because right after that was when I was like, you know, then, like, having to be out of the home with CPS and everything. So it's like I had trauma after trauma, so there was like, no processing that when then I'm now having to, like, deal with, like, CPS and Dyfus and all of that involvement. And I definitely didn't even know to call it anything at that time. So I didn't think it was abuse, but definitely was. And then, like, going from that, like, I like, felt so, like, isolated because, like, I don't believe my brothers were living in the home. I don't honestly remember. But, like, that was obviously just in itself a very isolating experience with, like. That was like a isolating experience with, like, myself and, like, just my parents and like, my siblings and I did kind of talk about things as a kid that I guess maybe we wouldn't discuss with our parents. Like, you know, we knew, like, safe conversations to have with them, safe conversations to have with, like, siblings and vice versa. So it's interesting. But, like, that's obviously something I knew would not be the thing to, like, talk about with them. And then going on from that, like, my brothers were mostly, like, they honestly did, like, have, like, places to stay and stuff. And I kind of felt like it was my role and job to, like, take care of our parents. Like, that was always kind of like something I felt was like, I need to take care of my parents, like, I need to be here. And so, yeah, like, at that time, like, it pretty much was that over and over again for my whole entire junior year, I think, like, whenever I was living with them. But yeah, like, I mean, and like, honestly, it's like, I just don't know what else to Add about that point because, like, that's really all I remember is like, but no electricity. That was like a big trauma point. I was removed. And then my senior year, I honestly don't remember if it was a removal again, but I know that we were without electricity again. I don't know if Dyfus was involved, but then I was intermittently staying with the friend that my sibling was staying with just so I could get a shower. I have messages I found way back on Facebook where I was literally. And it like, broke my heart finding these. Cause it's like, it showed like, clearly, like, how much I was just like, hehe. Like, this is mine to deal with. I don't even have anyone to talk to. My parents, whatever. But like, I was messaging my sibling at the time. Like, please, like, can. Like. But also it's like you feel like a burden as a child in this situation always. Like, even when people are like, nice and graceful enough to be like, hey, you can come shower, or here's toiletry, like, whatever it was. Cause like, that is another thing. We didn't really have toiletries growing up. Not much really. Even when we did get to bathe or take care of ourselves, we didn't really have access. So it was just like, we didn't have access to much. So when I would ask for things, it was always preface. My siblings alike. I don't want to feel like a burden and you really don't have to. I feel a lot of kids from similar situations, whether it's hoarding or just neglect, it's when you do finally maybe get people willing to offer help, you're like, like, you really don't have to. Like, it's okay. Like, please don't. And at that time I was like, messaging my brother, begging, like, but like, please don't feel bad, but like, I haven't been able to shower or like, I haven't been able to sleep. And I think back and I'm like, I probably wasn't able to sleep because of the stuff going on with my parents. And I was like, begging him, like, please can you ask, like, who you're staying with? If I can just come stay for one night. Like, yeah. And like, it's just like so wild to like, think that, like, I probably was like 6. I was born in July, so it's like I was always like, kind of like delayed in like the years of school compared to other people. So I think I was 16 or 17 at the time. And it's like, I'm literally just like, Begging for a safe place to sleep. And I just thought that that was like, normal. Like, that I was being a burden and like, yeah. So like, my sibling, like, obviously, like, he helped, like, they helped me. Like, we were always were like that back then. But like, it's just like, interesting to think that, like, I remember kind of staying there for a few days, but, like, I felt like, it's interesting to think that, like, I felt more uncomfortable there than I did at my home, which obviously was like living hell. But it's like, aside from like, it's just honestly being odd because when you go from dirty to clean, it's like, this is all abnormal. This feels weird. And when you're a child like me, you're like, I don't want to touch anything. Like when you go to friends houses. So it's weird. But then also aside from that, it was just odd to be like, why do I feel more safe at home? But it's more of that trauma thing. It's like, I feel safe there. Cause it's your trauma bond to your home. Obviously it was not like, good condition, a safe space. And like, that is like, interesting to think back. Like, I've always. I always think in metaphors and stuff. But a lot of like, since I've spoken up, like, people really do, like, villainize. Like, children who speak up against their parents. It's like, they did everything for you. They tried their best. They're mentally ill. Like, they're horrible. Like, you know, like, I've gotten everything. And like, well, even if your parents.

B (84:11)

Are mentally ill, that does not fall on you.

A (84:14)

Yeah.

B (84:14)

Ever, in any case.

A (84:15)

And it's like, okay, but like, you making these excuses for them and saying this to me, the child isn't.

B (84:21)

And neglecting.

A (84:23)

Yeah. You know, like, and it's like, even if it's not purposeful, because it's like, I can see in ways like, yes, hoarding is a mental disorder, like X, Y, Z. But it's like also, I think so many layers of there of choosing to not get better.

B (84:37)

And I think you speaking up about it is more so to spread awareness, not to bash your parents. You know what I mean?

A (84:44)

And in ways, it's like, I don't think people realize that sometimes you've tried everything. Like, I have tried every way I could. And even as a kid, like, we would try, like, to get our parents to, like, keep clean. Like, I remember I had nights where, like, I would stay up all night and like, clean as much of the house. But even like, then, like, that's a risk because then they get angry at you. It's like, I'm throwing out your things or I'm moving your things around. They get pissed. But, like, I would try to clean up and be like, okay, please nobody make it dirty again. And it's very common, since I've spoken of kids like us have that common rhetoric of cleaning up. And then you just get to a point where it's like, what's the point? A lot of even children of hoarders, even if once they move out of the home, they live in completely pristine conditions when they're living there, like, their own room eventually kind of turns to, like, its, like, own mini version of, like, hoarding. And a bit of that obviously comes from, like, some parts of, like, necessity. It's like, I would hoard my own clothes in my room because if not, like, they would get dirty, like, our laundry room, like, constantly flooded with water. So then, like, the clothes would literally, like, mold to the floor. Cause they were, like, wet and would, like, never get. So it's like, if you wanted your clothes to, like, stay with you, like, you had to be in, like, control of them and not let other people, like, watch them, like, do anything. So it's like you really had to, like, have control over your environment. And then it's interesting because I have ocd and hoarding is considered, like, a compulsive disorder. And I know that, like, hoarding can come from, like, grief. Someone dies, and then you feel the need to, like, keep everything they've ever touched. Or, like, people sometimes, like, get like, like a relation, like, with their thoughts to be like, well, if I get rid of this cup, then my friend might die. Like, you know, like, wild things like that that, like, are intrusive. Like, not normal thoughts, but, like, I can see how that, like, happens. But, like, even with my parents, I'm like, I truly don't understand the root cause of, like, it, except for just a need to control. And then what's interesting is a lot of children of hoarders develop ocd. And that's, like, what I have. And it's interesting because our parents might have, but it's like, it's just a continuation of the cycle and, like, opposite ends of the extreme, like, there's people who come from hoarders, like, with animal hoarding, who now can't own animals at all because they think they're dirty or even if they don't, they're like. They're so triggering to me. Like, I can't even just Deal with cleaning up a normal dog mess. Like it's just not like working for them but it's. Then there's like the OCD where it's like. And honestly like OCD is usually unfortunately stereotyped, is like just a super clean disorder but that's not a lot of what it is. It's both ends. But like a lot of people who come from like children of hoarders I would say are maybe what can go into that like subtype of OCD of needing to be really clean or else you feel like you don't have control over your life. Because that is kind of what I did as a child is like I didn't necessarily have a super clean room but there was things that I obsessed about that I needed to have control over. And that was kind of how I made myself feel safe as a child. And it was also just an internal thing. I was constantly, that was also my thinking forward thing. I was constantly escaping in my own head with made up scenarios and like that was all ocd. But like it helped me at the time. But it's just like interesting. It's like they may have OCD or some type of intrusive thought disorder but then they typically then cause that for their own kids like in a continuation of the cycle and like just in a different, the opposite end of the extreme. And also like it is also common for children reporters to also struggle too. So it's like I know I did like with like certain types of like hoarding things because even just in general, even if it's not hoarding, hoarding, hoarding. Once you leave, like it's hard to learn a cleaning routine etc like you're basically teaching yourself. Yeah. And I don't like it's pretty much like re. Adulting.

B (89:13)

Yeah.

A (89:13)

So like honestly like senior year, like the part I don't remember obviously like I got into college at once point I don't remember. I only applied to one university, same state or different. Same state. And I, I definitely had dreams of wanting to go far away. I feel like a lot of people in similar situations are like get me up here like far away as possible. But at that time I, I was still like riding horses. I don't know if you mentioned it but I rode horses all like growing up and like that was like something I like did. So like when I left for college like horses were still at my parents. Like I still felt very restored responsible for it. So it's like I felt like I couldn't go too far in a Way.

B (89:56)

So were you living at home or on campus?

A (89:59)

I lived on campus my freshman year. And that was, like, the wildest, obviously, experience for someone like me. And actually, what's, like, crazy interesting is, like, I also think, like, a lot of, like, what's weird is, like, the fact we didn't talk about things with, like, me being removed is, like, that really all moved fast. Like, junior year, I was removed. Senior year, there was, like, chaos. I definitely was living out of the home. I don't remember if I was technically removed or not, but, like, CPS was definitely involved. And then, like, I got into college, and then I got into, like, a pre college program. So then right after I graduated high school, like, the day or two after, I, like, went to college for, like, the summer pre college program. And it's like, I got into something that, like, gave me. Like, if I did that, I got extra money, like, for college. And it's, like, coming from where I came from, like, I was very broke. Like, and that's also, like, why I didn't go far. I knew I wouldn't have, like, all the money to, like, cover, like, all of that. Like, so I was like, all right, like, I'm gonna go here. Like, it was the best option for me. And, like, I only applied to one place because I knew, like, I wouldn't afford other stuff or I would just, like, go to community college. But I still had, like, my parents probably didn't realize, but, like, I knew at the time, like, I was leaving no matter what. Like, even if I didn't get into.

B (91:18)

School, I was going somewhere.

A (91:19)

Yeah, like, I was staying somewhere else. But then, like, the one thing I do remember about getting into college is, like, it was upsetting because even though I was the youngest, I felt so much responsibility for the home, for my, like, siblings, like, the animals, everything that was involved, that I was so upset that, like, I was having to leave them behind to deal with everything. And, like, it definitely in ways, probably hit, like, slowly. Then, like, the realizations probably started of, like, I'm leaving all of this behind, which means I have to, like, face what it is, you know? And then honestly, like, that was, like, a great part of my life. Like, getting parts of college, like, the college program was, like, amazing. And then when I started college, I had, like, great roommates and, like, everything like that. But that was also kind of, you know, where I started to kind of get those realizations, where it's like, of course I knew before that, like, my life was not normal. How we lived was not normal. And it's like I knew, like, you know, viscerally, like, I need to get out of here, I'm unsafe. But that kind of led to a lot of unavoidable realizations of just specific little niche things about cleanliness and whatever. Sorry to all of my old roommates, but I probably wasn't the best roommate at first because I was literally learning. And it shouldn't have been a college roommate's job to teach me how to do chores, but I truly didn't know how to do anything, do anything back then. And like, back then, like YouTube videos were my bread and butter and I would like binge watch like cleaning, like routine. And like, that was like how I learned. And even honestly growing up, like YouTube, like just anything, like thankful for the Internet, like right in the childhood I had and even having the access when I did because we didn't always have electricity. But like, when I did, like, I was always like trying to learn things about like, the world that I like, knew I didn't know. And like, then when I left, it was like, you know, takes away the shame of it of like having to go up to someone and be like, hey, I don't know how to use a tampon or like, whatever it is, you know, like, it's really like things you should know when you're 20 something in college. And it's shameful to ask. And that's like also why I speak up. It's like people should know. Like if you do, like even in like the high school times, like if you see like people that struggle with this stuff, it's definitely like, I would never assume it's purposeful, you know.

B (93:59)

No. And you should have some grace, you know, it's like you never know what someone's dealing with or going through in their own life or at home, you know, no matter what age it is. And I feel like, you know, we live in a very judgmental society unfortunately at times. And you know, if you're getting a question like that, I think the best that like, obviously immediately as a human, if that's not your normal, you're going to have like immediate concern or some like red flags.

A (94:25)

It's discomfort. Like that's where it's like the parents in a way benefit because like, as a child, like you naturally do want to cover for your parents. And then also, like you're feeling the shame and embarrassment, even though of course in like the grander scheme of things, it's not yours. Like the child is bearing the brunt of it in the moment when whoever is asking them, like, hey, like, did you shower before school? Like, today? Like, whatever it is, like, the little moments like that, it really highlights to the kid that they're not normal. I always wonder. It's like, me and my siblings had to go through that a lot and felt so much anxiety. That's definitely a lot of where my mental health issues come from is that instability of cps, all the ins and outs and having to deal with it is. Did they ever feel that, like, the anxiety, like, that I'm going to lose my kids? Like, because for me, it's, like, hard to conceptualize if they did because I never really saw much.

B (95:24)

You never felt it?

A (95:25)

Yeah, like, I never felt, like, the effort to change. And, like, that's something I've always said is, like, even when, like, I've talked to my parents, it's like, I understand you love me. You love me the best way you know how, but I'm not sure how to make you see or accept that. Like, your love has always been very conditional, and that makes your child feel very, like, yeah, loved. Like, no matter if you love them or not, like, you made your love have conditions like, that comes, you know, with a cost to, like, your child. Yeah, but, yeah, like, I don't think they, like, it is hard. Like, I don't think they, like, will ever get it. But, like, at that point of my life, like, leaving for college and everything, like, it was interesting because I knew I was pulling away, but I didn't, like, obviously, like, I knew why. Like, because of, like, the home life, I knew I was unsafe there. And then once I got to college, I'm like, y' all are complaining about these college beds. Like, I love this little rinky dinky college mattress. Like, and, like, even then, like, that was, like, the first instances of, like, I really wanted to prove to myself I wouldn't be like them that it's so easy to not live like that. And, like, yeah, like, I'll be the first to say, like, I'm not the cleanest person. And as a child of quarters, like, I can have some, like, obsessive things that I need to deal with. But, like, once I got to college, like, my room clean, like, did I have, like, certain issues and whatever? Yes. But, like, that was something I immediately was like, I need to have a really clean room. And then this is also something like a big anxiety with the cockroaches growing up. And a lot of children of hoarders relate to is when I went to College. I was so nervous about bringing them with me. You can't bring much stuff with you. And then also the dissonance of this happened all the time with your parents would say things, and it's like, well, I know I'm not allowed to confront you with the reality, but I'm trying to say no because my mom would be like, oh, bring this with you to college. And it's like, electronics, straight. No, no. Like, when it comes to cockroaches, like, you're just bringing them, like, so it's like, anything like that. Like, she's like, oh, you have a laptop. Why do you need to buy a new one for college? And it's like, well, like, it's. I need a new one, you know, Like. And just like, random things like that where it's like, how do you not. Like, like, you know. Yeah. And that was, like, a big stress, like, then. And even just, like, all throughout our lives, like, we'd bring them to school. Like, we get made fun of. Like, you would see, like, I had anxiety all the time growing up of, like, seeing a cockroach, like, crawl out of my backpack and, like, trying to squish it so, like, people didn't see it and, like, make fun of me for it. And it's like, me and cockroaches have, like, beef sorry to them, you know.

B (98:17)

I can only imagine. It's like, it's such a. Like you said, that kind of goes back to the shame and the embarrassment.

A (98:22)

Of it, you know, it's like, we felt like. And I, like, my father had a job, but it's like, I'm sure, especially with his narcissist self, like, he was probably stopping at a rush rest stop on the way to work, showering himself real quick. Like, he, I like, assure you, was not dealing with similar things. And even, like, some of blowback when they've spoken up against him is like, I worked with him. He's so great. And it's like, well, then that's kind of crazy because anyone who's, like, been in contact with myself or my siblings throughout, like, our school time would be able to tell you unfortunately. Unfortunately, like, so much about our life because it was so obvious. Like, like, and it's like, yeah, I tell my story. But it's like, so much of this is probably known by everyone in my hometown because it was so, like, out there blaring in, like, small towns. Like, it's, like, wild to think that, like, they really, like, I don't know, like, it's so Wild that like, my parents never like, I don't know, I'm like, is nobody, like, talking to them about this? Like. Cause I am like, as my. Apparently, I guess maybe his coworkers thought he was normal and he was probably like, showing up his best self there. Like, was nobody ever. Because like I always say, like, I can imagine a bajillion times like myself and my siblings were getting bullied and like, handling like the shame and guilt of things. Like with the backyard reading, like my father would do, he would sometimes like, self fraudulent stuff. Like, of course. And then people would be mad at him, would be messaging him on Facebook. He'd block them. So then they'd start messaging like me or my siblings about in order to like, get to him through us. And like, that's also even something we got bullied for at school. Cause you know, he'd like, sell to someone in our school. And then like, that was also even something where it's like as a boundary, like, it just never made sense. Like we were getting bullied so horribly. But then like, people would like, come and buy puppies from my father that were bullying us, like their family would. And then also sometimes like, they would come buy a puppy, see the condition of our home. Even though, like, at like my father would like, make that room, like the most presentable room in the house for people. And even then it's still. It's the room I showed you, like, with the picture with the dress, like the. The more like flowy one. Yeah, like, that is the room he like, would have the puppies in and like, show them to people. They'd buy it. And then people would use that as like, ammunition to like bully us over at school, like, over whatever they saw in like the home. Which is like, it's terrible, insane, but like, it's just interesting. It's like, how do you not see, like, is no one talking to them? And then like I mentioned a little bit earlier, like, my father ran for like some political thing, like at some point after I leave for college. And it's like, did no one say, like, we shouldn't like, like no one said, hey, let's not support this guy when it's very obvious he's like, neglected his children and animals for like 15 to 20 years. Like, like, kind of insane. And. Yeah. So like, from then on, like, I feel like, like when I left for college, like, that was like the stuff that would like slowly pile into me. Cause it's like the cockroaches was always a thing, but then When I really left, it was, like, really a thing, like, packing for college. Like, I really realized I can't take anything, like, really any much with me. I couldn't even, like, do laundry when I left for college. Like, I had, like, like, hampers to then go and do them at school because, like, we didn't have a working washer and dryer at the time. And, like, all of that. And it was, like, insane. Like, I honestly am, like, I do look back and, like, I've asked some friends. I'm like, was it obvious? And, like, I do think in ways. Like, I don't know if it's, like, I want to say I covered for it well or if it's like, I finally just got to be, like, who I wanted to be aside from it, that, like, people, like, like, unless I talked about it, people weren't like, this is where you come from. But, like, I really, like, I will say, like, I am lucky in how I adjusted. Even though I know it was, like, extremely difficult for me. Like, I know it's not common, like, for people from my situation, but honestly, like, I'll say, like, the beginning part was actually, like, a lot of realizations, but then, like, easier. It's like once they started kind of, like, hitting and then I had to keep, like, experiencing my parents. That's. I think what made it, like, extremely difficult was like, okay, freshman year, I'm realizing, like, there would just be really little things. Like, obviously just like, I can't really think of anything because it's just so many little things about cleanliness and whatever that I learned, like, the whole first year of college. And even just, like, I'll say, like, I'm lucky that I found good friends because, like, I grew up with, like, none. And like, honestly probably didn't have the best social skills at the time. Like, whatever. Like, I'm lucky that, like, I found friends that, like, saw, like, through that. I guess, like, saw me through that because it was, like, a tough period of my life without me realizing. But them making me feel normal is definitely something, you know, that made it easier to, like, get to where I am. And so, yeah, like, my friends taught me a lot. Like, my roommates my then, like, sophomore and junior year were, like, showing me, like, all about the world of, like, normal girls. Like, it was, like, just, like, the cutesy girly stuff. Like, they realized, like, all the TV shows I never got to watch, like, growing up. Cause, like, we didn't always have, like, access to our TV and, like, things like that. So they like, literally wrote a list of, like, shows, and, like, we binge to watch all of, like, the classics and, like, things like that. And then they honestly are some of the last and few friends to ever be at my house because, like, they had, like, gone to my parents once or twice. And, like, I'm pretty. Like, I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure we had conversations about it after. And that probably helped me. And, like, that was, like, a big, like, turning period for me. And, like, I didn't know it at the time, but, like, pretty much, like, around that point, I like, kind of starting descending into, like, a really bad, like, mental health period. I was very, very anxious all of the time. I was struggling with, like, suicidal ideation. I didn't know that's what it was at the time. But, like, I like, constantly, like, getting intrusive thoughts about, like, things like that. And I then was, like, kind of doing, like, showing kind of what my parents had done my whole life is just, like, immediately invalid myself over something, like, negative. Like, I probably had every right to be feeling that at that point, but immediately, like, when I was feeling that way, I was like, you have no right to feel this way. Like, you've got everything you've wanted. Like, you finally got to college. Like, this, that and the third. And I was very much like, toxic positivity, like, focus on the good, which was what got me to that point. But then at that point, I was, like, invalidating myself being, like, everything, everything's fine, everything's fine. And that really, like, made it a lot worse. And at that point, I remember it being like, before I had to move home for the summer my sophomore year. And looking back, that probably had a lot to do with it. Like, my brain and body probably was like, knowing, like, brace yourself. You have to go live home for the summer. You know, after getting, like, control of your life and normalcy for the year and, like, feeling safe, like, you feel safe for once. Like, no. And, like, when I went home, like, that was, like, one of the worst mental health, like, periods because also, like, the state of the home when I was gone at college got completely worse because.

B (106:13)

So it got worse when you guys moved out?

A (106:16)

Yeah, I would say, like, I was actually. So I'm the youngest, but I was the first to leave.

B (106:21)

Okay, so your siblings were still there at the time?

A (106:24)

Yeah. And I would say, like, before I left, like, I was probably the main person who would clean if the house were to get cleaned. And then in terms of the animals, I cared for them. Probably a lot more than. I mean, I don't know if that's fair, but, I mean, I think it's fair to say I definitely cared more about the animals than my siblings did. That wasn't their thing. My siblings, rightfully so, were very isolated. They didn't want anything to do with that. That's why I say it's like, children reporters are very different. I became very much like. Like, I love the animals. This is what makes me survive this, like, relying on them. Like, we're in this together. Like. But my brothers were definitely the opposite. And I've definitely seen that a lot more. It's like, you know, like, they are part of the problem to you in your head as a kid. So it's like, I don't want to take care of them. Like, why would I want to take care of them? So, like, I was the one who kind of did a lot of that stuff. And then, like, when I left, it went pretty downhill. Like, typical. Kind of what parents do normally when you go to college, like, turn your room into things. But then, as you can imagine, hoarders just kind of completely took over my room while I was gone, like, et cetera. Like, it wasn't the best place to return to. And I don't remember super specifically, like, what happened. But also, like, something I will say is this is a big reason of why I turned out. Like, normal ish is like, riding horses was, like, a big, safe space for me. And through that, I, like, met a lot of people who, like, supported me. And also, I will say, out of anyone, they're the people who saw my dad quite easily because they were exposed to him the longest. And my horse trainer growing up, she was pretty. I always felt bad thinking it as a kid because of, like, you know, you would. But, like, she pretty much was my mom growing up for a lot of intents and purposes, especially once I got to, like, high school age. Like, she taught me about, like, all feminine stuff. Like, she was the one who, like, kindly would be like, summer, we need to get you into perfume. Like, we need to find you a perfume to wear that you, like. Like, things like that that, like, kind of introduce. And I had always wanted to be, like, girly and love makeup and stuff. But, like, that wasn't something I got to do as a kid or whatever for all of the reasons. So, like, she. Anytime I would be there, I'd be like, let's go get your nails done. Like, stuff like that that really, like, obviously, like, changed my life in, like, little Ways I'm like, oh, like, this is normal girlhood. Like, this is it. And, like, she was my safe place to land. Pretty much, like, the end of, like, my high school career. Like, she knew about when I was being removed and stuff. She wanted me to stay with her, but she lived too far for me to stay there and also, like, finish, like, my school and, like, that kind of like, like, official stuff. Like, I just wasn't allowed to stay there and do school. But she's always been someone who's, like, in my corner, has always, like, shown me, like, kind of what normalcy is in a lot of ways. And, like, yeah, no family's perfect. But, like, she was the one who taught me, like, like, how to, like, care. Like, and she, like, made it, like, though I'm like, you need to care for yourself. Like, and that's something really, like, children reporters don't know. Like, you need to take care of yourself. Like, take care of your hygiene. Like, it's important to, like, care for your body. Like, and even just feeding myself, like, when you do come from, like, a hoarding situation or just, like, neglect, like, nutrition definitely isn't the easiest. Like, the things you do want to eat aren't the healthiest. So, like, like, she's always pushed me to, like, be a better person. So I would say, like, around that time is like, when I started kind of full on pulling away from my parents without, like, kind of knowing that I was doing it. But I would only ever go around for, like. And I mean, they used to say this to me as, like, an offensive thing. My father would be like, you only ever come around when you need something. But it's like, my response to that now is like, when did you ever make me feel like I could come to you for anything else? You know, like, when were you ever a safe space that made me, like, want to be around you for anything other than necessity, unfortunately. Yeah. So, yeah, like, anytime I would, like, go around, it was for a holiday. And even then, like, I, like, I spent a lot of college holidays alone. Like, I would stay at my dorm if I was allowed to, but I would just go home for the actual day. Like, so I can get. Like, I very much. Like, that was my way of controlling it. And, like, at the time, like, this is, like, a thing, like, I do want to, like, say that is really important for, like, kids like me is, like, the shame and guilt we experience, like, obviously from the conditions is so hard. But then, like, when you leave, you feel so much shame and guilt. Like, Trying to, like, do anything to hold your parents responsible. Like, my. Like, even as simple as. Just, like, my mom would text me all the time I'd be in class. Like, she relied on me so much when I lived at home. I get to college and it'd be like, summer xyz. Like, things I couldn't even, like, do anything about. Like, she's just, like, giving me things to worry about. And it's like, I felt so guilty being like, hey, mom, like, could you at least not text me during class? Like, it stresses, like, I'm a hyperly anxious person, you know, like, like, that doesn't work for me. And, like, honestly, I probably am a hyperly anxious person because, like, that's how my mom is. Like, she's always, like, quick to, like. Like, make you anxious over even, like, the smallest thing somehow. But, like, yeah, like, at that point I was like, you're not very, like, comfortable to be around with, like, all of the anxiety you're inducing. So, like, I am only coming around with what works for me. And, like, I didn't vocalize it at the time, but, like, they definitely slowly, like, over the years started realizing. So, like, that was in, like, like, 2015, 16ish on. And then I graduated around, like, 2017, 18, like, time frame. And like, from then on, like, it was, like, slowly, like, I'm really only coming around, like, over necessary things, like, not trying to mess around with them much. And slowly, over time, I realized, like, obviously that was because, like, pretty much they themselves are a trauma trigger for me. Like, being around them, being at. And, like, when you leave a home like that, like, growing up, you truly wouldn't know you smelled sometimes until you got to school, even if you. Like. Like, I would remember, like, some mornings I would, like, sniff my clothes and be like, I'm really checking to make sure this doesn't have, like, a smell to it.

B (113:19)

But it was, like, in an environment that smelled like, right?

A (113:22)

So it's like. Like, I would get to school and then be like, dang it, I'm getting made fun of that I smell like, do I smell like, what the heck? And, like, honestly, like, the state of our home, unfortunately, like, made us, like, it is, like, similar to abandoned home. Because, like, I work in the city and I like, unfortunately, like, there's so many, like, unhoused people, like, on the streets, and when I walk by them, I even get, like, trigger flashbacks to my, like, home because it smells so similar. And even that's something that's, like, weirdly validating. To be like, yeah, my home life was really bad. If, like, even with four walls, you know, I was like smelling like an unhoused person. Like that's how my parents had me living. Like, that's kind of crazy of them to like think that that's normal.

B (114:05)

Yeah. So when did your siblings end up moving out?

A (114:09)

So one more, Reese. I guess, like, honestly, like my timeline, because I like pushed away from the family, like, I do know things and I'm super close with one and like the other one I would say is still very involved, like enmeshed in the family system. So like, he's still there.

B (114:27)

Makes it hard.

A (114:29)

Yeah. And like even speaking up, it was hard because it's like he's still living there. But I feel like I need to speak up for, you know.

B (114:37)

So when did you start speaking up?

A (114:39)

A little, like a few years ago. I like, I think 2022, three or 2024. Oh, no, 2023 was like I. Another mental health crisis period for me. And it was like because of. Oh yeah. So the dentist and like medical stuff. I mentioned before when I went to the dentist and like the eye doctor. I went to the eye doctor and I have like, never had classes because I never really went. I think maybe one time my parents did take me. They prescribed glasses and like, my parents either never picked them up or we got them and who knows, you know, like, it wasn't like a long term thing. So I had always just lived my life how I was. And when I went to the eye doctor, he was like, do you drive? And I was like, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. And he was like, like, how long? And like, mind you, it's like kind of like post covet times. And I thought he was just being like, oh, do you drive all time the time? Like, what do you do? Like, do you drive a lot? And I'm like, oh. Like, no. Like I don't really drive much. Like I worked from home at the time. Like, I just run out for errands. And he said like, no, like you drive. And I said, yeah, like I drive a car. Like I have a license. And he was like, yeah, you're not allowed behind like a wheel without glasses. Like you're double the legal limit. Like, I was like, I don't know what that means. And he's like, you're legally blind without. Without glasses. Like you cannot legally drive a car without, like corrective lenses. So I was just out there driving, you know.

B (116:10)

Right. You don't know any different people.

A (116:12)

Like, so Sorry to the people on the streets, like, but I was that. And, like, what's also interesting is it's like, kind of a metaphor for, like, how life is. Is, like, before I had glasses, and a lot of people with glasses, like, say the same thing. It's like, well, it. Like, I knew I saw bad, but, like, it didn't feel that bad. But then when you get glasses, I literally take them off, and it's like, my boyfriend made fun of me, like, before then, like, I couldn't read, like, the big signs and, like, stores, and he was, like, always making fun of me, and I'm like, no. Guess I was blind to my bad. Like, and then with my teeth, like, my parents rarely, if ever took us, and, like, I know my siblings probably, like, struggled with it even more so. But, like, my teeth not in the best condition. Like. And, yeah, like, I'll say I didn't have the best, like, teeth hygiene when I left, but it's also like, we were never taught that. And I also have raging adhd, so it was really hard to, like, as an adult, build all of those routines. And then, like, I finally did, and then I go to the dentist and I'm all happy about my life, and I'm like, yeah, my teeth are great. I've been taking care of them. And, yeah, no, I needed two root canals, and it cost, like, $10,000. And, like, you want insurance and stuff, and it's like, it's crazy. Yeah. And it's just, like, little things like that where it's like, that would happen. And I'm like. I'm angry at my parents again, because it's like, it just goes. It's another, like, cost of, like. And it's, like, symbolic. Like, a lot of children say it's like, it really sucks, like, breaking the cycle in general, because it's like. Like, I am having to do all of the work for, like, the stuff you did. Like, I'm literally having to actually, like, pay for it financially in ways too. Like, what you did to me, like, all the therapy, too. But it's like, even that was, like, such a, like, flagrant.

B (118:04)

Like, I think the most heartbreaking part about things like that is that it's so preventable.

A (118:09)

Yeah. And it's like. And what's crazy is, like, looking back, it's like, my father did have jobs where he probably had, like, medical insurance and stuff. Yeah. And that's like, they would struggle with, like, the CO pays and stuff, but it's like, that was just, like, they really were so bad with money. And like, this is something. The reason why my father was an addictions counselor is, like, from what he always told me in his story is like, he was an addict growing up. And, like, that's. And I think that is, like, a typical thing. Like, addicts become addictions counselors. It's common. But I always say, like, me and my one sibling that, like, talk a lot. Like, it's like, like, was he using? Like, is that where the money went? But, like, then in ways it's like, no, My father was crazy enough without, like. And I don't know, I was really perceptive as a kid. Like, I feel like I would have picked up if he was using. But also, you know, who knows? But, like, it's just crazy that even if he wasn't an addict, still he was. Like, he had, like, the spending habits of one, you know, like, and that also, like, fed into, like, the hoarding, where it's like, he really had no control over, like, I guess what he chose to spend money on. Like, and even, like, after I would, like, go to college, like, sometimes I'd get. Like, I could never do anything for myself. Especially, like, when I got to college without, like, getting a guilted text after. Like, if it was like, and I don't even. Sometimes I'm like, like, how do they know that I'm doing something? Like, I would, like, go on a vacation. Like, I think the first vacation I ever went on was like, my sophomore year of college. Went on a Florida trip with my friends. And like, I of course got texts from my mom, like, asking me for money while I'm on the trip. And it like, I now, like, kind of see it. Like, I don't know if she, like, means to, but it's something she's always done. Like, whether it's like a purposeful guilt trip or not, she's always kind of like, setting up this, like, guilt fest. Like, like, I felt like she would purposefully ask me anytime I was on vacation. Because it's like, oh, you're spending money on yourself. Like, that means you should be able to give us money. Or if you don't, like, now you're gonna feel bad about it because you went and spent money on yourself rather than, like, yeah, giving us money for kind of no reason. And that's like, also another thing, like, with hoarders is people like, well, what if they had resources? Etc, like, same thing. Like, enough if they aren't willing to use the resources. Like, it's the same thing. Like, you could Pay like because it's like thousands of dollars. Like people like professionally like clean up hoarder. Oh yeah. And like they deserve that money understandably. You, you charge 10, $12,000, you deserve it. But it's like even if you were to like pay that like even on like my tick tock, like I've had people be like start a gofundme. I'm like, you know, like if you don't want to do that over there, like sure. But like there's no point. Like they have to accept, they have.

B (121:01)

To want it for themselves.

A (121:02)

And like, like the main thing that like I have trouble with is like they're lack to take accountability because like even I am like of course, like I like even like aside from all they've done for me, I want differently for them. Like I don't want my parents living like this into their old age. Like I don't want this for them. But even if I spent all the money in the world, went there myself and took all the time in the world to clean it, who's to say.

B (121:27)

It stays that way?

A (121:28)

And like even in their old age I feel like they would still find ways to acquire like endless amounts of like items. So it's like I don't know like what more to do in that situation. And like just especially it's like I'm paying all the other costs for like the effects of me and now I'm supposed to like do that for you. And that's like, that is like a general thing that like gets put onto kids whether it's hoarding or in general. Like when you speak up it's like well help your parents, like why are you speaking up? Like instead of helping them. And it's like, don't you think that before speaking up a child has like exhausted all other options? Like in my case like I felt the need to speak up because it truly felt like the only thing that could work. Because I've witnessed my father like animal control in and out, in and out. Like so many times were they at my parents property. And it's like ever since I've left my parents farm, like you know, you see the news stories of like hundred hoarder cats saved from home, like person arrested. And it's like like. And I would always like think like why is my like why did nobody ever like react to like my father's conditions in the way that they like.

B (122:43)

Well I think too, you know. Another thing is you spent your whole life feeling very isolated and I think that you know In a way, by speaking out and sharing your story, it allows you to connect with other people that can relate to you.

A (122:55)

Yeah. And understand. I never thought other people, like, and it's like, it's selfish, but it's also just kind of inherently like. Kind of like that when you're isolated like this. Like, I truly am. Like, this is just me and my family. Like, this is a very individualized experience. Like, even when I kind of realized hoarding was a thing, which, honestly, like, only towards the later, like, times in my life did I know there was a word for it. Did my friends watch Hoarders? And I was like, I need you to turn that off. Like, that's a little too real for me. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's what it is. Like, then, you know, and it's like.

B (123:30)

Was it shocking to you to see how many people could relate?

A (123:34)

Yeah, Honestly, I really thought, like, yeah, just me. And then so many people. And even just aside from that, it was like, the things they were saying were like. Like, you always do on the Internet. People are like, oh, I always thought I had original experiences. And it's like, I've never really had that. You know, I've never been like, oh, I realize it's not just me. But with this, like, I did because, like, the flea thing I mentioned, people, like, commented about. And that's, like, one of my biggest traumas. So, like, when someone commented that, that simple, one comment out of. However, that felt so validating to me to be like, oh, my God, other kids have actually been through this. And I get the same rhetoric in my comments a lot. It's bittersweet because I'm so happy I have people to relate to, because you really wouldn't think to in this situation. But then it. It's, like, bitter because I don't want people, you know, like, I don't want this to happen. Like, I did not want this amount of people to relate to this subject. Like, yeah, you don't want that amount of. Kids are, like, going through it. And unfortunately, it does seem quite common and, like, and for just various mixes of reasons that, like, people live in this, like, way. And this was, like, awesome. Like, something, like, through my journey to speak up. It was because, honestly, I feel like every time my mental health would get bad, I would feel the need to confront things more. And I realized I had ocd. And with that came realizing a lot of my obsessive thoughts stem around my home conditions and just in general, my need to feel in control of my Environment obviously comes from the fact I had no control of the one I had growing up. So it's like I'm obsessed with control now. Like, my poor boyfriend, like, living with me, like, sometimes is not the greatest, I'll admit. But it's like, that comes from, like, needing, like, control over everything. And when I finally, like, realized, like, speaking up, that it, like, wasn't just me, like, it's also even common for us to have OCD and to be this. This way. And people, like, a lot of the parents are the same, unfortunately. Like, copy and paste the same rhetoric of, like, the kids are bearing, like, the shame. They're getting bullied at school. It's like, they're isolated. They can't talk to their parents about it. But then, like, when I started, like, speaking up, I really, like, wanted people to, like, have a space to talk about it. And that's like, a lot of, like, sometimes people are like, you post so much of the same stuff and, like, it's like, okay. But it's because I have. As many times as I have posted this, I've gotten, you know, like, five more, like, DMs from people being like, thank you so much. Like, I never knew I had someone to relate to. Like, and truthfully, like, it is such shameful, like, stuff to talk about. That even, like, aside from therapy, like, it's easiest to talk about it to people that experience, like, the same type of shame, per se. Like, similar experience. Yeah. And because I even said, like, the reason, like, I also kind of got to a point, like, with my mental health in 2023, is like, I do have, like, I made good friends in college. Like, I made a life for myself. I got a good degree, I did good academically in college. I thrived. X, Y, Z. From the outside looking in, you're like, wow, that's a really happy girl. And yes, I had moments where I thrived, but I crashed and burned after college because once college was over, all my friends moved back to their hometowns or where their jobs are. And it was kind of back to that isolation again, where I do have close friends, but it's like, you text. And that type of thing was just very reminiscent of me being very isolated as a kid. And even though I have great friends, there is just a different level of validation and community when it's. I'm not. Cause I vented to my friends a million times this stuff. I'm very open about it. But when I then vent into, like, a room with people who have been through the Same thing. It's way different. Like, I was so alone and like spoke up in 2023, like a lot of the time because I was like.

B (128:21)

So when you started speaking up, I'm assuming you had already moved out.

A (128:25)

Yeah, so I had moved out like for college. And then there might. There was like periods I lived at home like since so like 2013, 2014, I left for college. And then from then to like 2018ish, I'd say, like there was like little stints of me like living home where it's like I had nowhere else to stay. But even then, like my parents would be like, why don't you want to live at home? Because like, I started paying for off campus housing, working three jobs. Like I knew like, if I were to go home, even though for other people it's like summer. Why aren't you staying home? It's 20 minutes away. Why are you living on campus at school? Like, yeah. Cause I kind of need to. Like, I knew I would fail if I lived at home. So like I stayed there very like, I barely remember the points where I stayed there. There was like one stint of like my parents, like domestic violence was like so big in like my early years, honestly. But like I don't remember it. Like the most that I know about that is like through my older siblings and just like the little vague details. And like obviously like my parents still fought pretty crazy like growing into older age. But I think my father stopped being as like physically violent because my one sibling got big enough to like defend, interject and stuff like that. So it became more casual. But there was a stint in like 2017 where I was like living at home, like between like off campus houses or whatever where my mom was and like dad had got into like a huge, huge screaming fight and like for days on end. And I remember it being around the time where I needed to study for things and I was having to mediate their fights. And that was definitely one of the points where I was like, okay, that was probably one of the times where my parents guilt worked where it's like, don't spend money living outside the home. You can save money living here. But I kid you not, whenever I lived at home, they drained me. So it's like I didn't even get to save up money if I ever lived at home to try and do that. So it's like that was definitely one of those like last moments where it's like, I can't. Like I had known throughout college, but that was definitely like one of the last times, I think I stayed there for a bit of time, and then I graduated. And, yeah, I feel like once I graduated in, like, 2017, 18, like, 2017, 2018, that's where I really just started. Only visiting there if I needed to pick up mail. Cause for a while, because I moved so much in school, I just kept that as my permanent address for taxes, whatever important stuff in life. And so I would go there to pick up things. And the animals, I'll get into it later, but the one dog I saved was there, and it's like, I still had a few animals there I was attached to. So I would go and visit and, like, see the animals. And, like, my parents probably didn't know it at the time, but I was checking in to be like, you know, like, see what's going on. What's going on. And, like, my parents don't know it, but, like, me and my siblings, I'm pretty sure. Like, actually, I don't know if I can, like, speak for them and, like, remembering it, but, like, I remember I called, like, CPS on my parents myself at times, and animal Control, like, they'd hate that, but it's like, that's. That's the reality of, like, I even, like, witnessed stuff. Like, after I left for college, where I was like, all right, I got a call. Like, I can't, like, do nothing. Even though that was, like, my trauma growing up is, like, them coming all the time. I was like, yeah. And that's, like, kind of where I realized, like. Like, I grew up loving animals, but pretty much everything I witnessed was, like, opposite of, like, my morals, my values, like, everything I standed for. Like, I then, like, look back and I'm like, how much did, like. Like, that's, like, one of the biggest guilt things. It's like, how much did I contribute to, like, you know, like, animals being harmed without, like, knowing as, like, an unwilling child. And, like, that's, like, something, you know, it's like, even, like, aside from normal stuff, I'm like, that's something parents can undo. Like, you had me, like, witness and be a part of, like, so much that I now, like, burdened to, like, carry blame for. And. Yeah, so, like, from then on, I just really, like, checked in, like, if, like, for bare minimum. And. Oh, yeah. So I will say, like, this is probably also why things notably changed. I started dating my, like, current partner in 2017, I believe. Yeah, 2017. And, like, from then on, like, his family really took me in for holidays. Like, I had a place to Go. So, like, honestly, it's like, once I had a place to go, I always chose that over, like, my parents home and, like, sometimes the awkward conversation where they'd be like, hey, are you going to see your parents today, too? I'm like, no. Yeah. No, thank you. But, yeah, like, they took me in. And then also, like, my horse trainer that I mentioned is, like, my mom. Like, she's always invited me for, like, every holiday, like, ever since, like, college time. So truthfully, like, thinking back, like, I know that, like, I was in contact with them, they'd message me and stuff, but I really did, like, pull away as soon as I graduated college, like, completely. Some people, you know, like, your parents are at your college graduation. You can't have hated them that much. Like, you think if I told my narcissist father, he wasn't allowed to come to my. But all of that graduation and, like, even then, it's like, it's complex.

B (134:05)

Yes. It's, like, so complex and it's so small in the grand scheme of things. Things I was gonna ask you, too. So when you started speaking out about your childhood, did you try speaking to your family about it prior?

A (134:18)

Yeah. So that's like, a big thing is, like, also, like, why, like, sometimes when people on the Internet, I'm like, yeah, everything you said, it's. It's been tried. So. Yeah. So, like, keep going back, like, 2023, like, my mental health got bad. And when I realized, like, I think that's when I realized I had ocd. And through that was, like, a lot of, like, trauma triggers and everything that I. And honestly, like, my therapist at the time, who I'm still with, bless her heart, like, she kind of started, like, exploring with me, like, the things that, like, made me uncomfortable. And then that then led to me being like, I'm also uncomfortable. Like, I'm uncomfortable around my parents. And that's a shameful thing to say. But, like, I, around that time had actually tried to take my mom on a trip because growing up, my father, whatever, trying to be the nice daughter I am, aside from everything else. And that whole entire trip made me realize I feel like my skin is on fire when I'm around my parents, because it's so much trauma, memories. And then just on top of that, I was always in charge of everything. So it's like, when I'm with them, it's just. Just buzzing with anxiety. Like, I have to deal with everything. And. And just also, I think I just realized at that time, like, the not speaking about it was, like, literally harming me. Like, I was struggling. Like, all of, like, the OCD stuff that was, like, coming through was, like, my mouth stuff. I would, like, obsess over. Like, my mouth. And, like, my mouth isn't straight. And it's probably because my parents neglected me all my life. I can't do anything about it. Like, and even I have health anxiety and ocd. And that comes from the fact that I obsess over. What health conditions could I have from growing up in a situation like that? And all of that pretty much tumbled into me, pretty much deciding and telling my therapist, I don't think I can have a relationship with them unless accountability is had. And I was getting to the point where it's like, I'm, like, now 30, like, at that point, few years younger, but it's like, my parents are getting older. They're having health issues. Like, I was starting to feel that, like, pressure. Like, I feel, like, a lot of people feel where it's like, my parents are gonna probably die in the next XYZ years. Like, I want to make sure, you know, I resolve what I need to or, like, have the relationship with them that I want to, if it's possible. Because, like, honestly, at that time, I knew it was not likely. You know, I grew up with my parents how they were. I knew them well enough to kind of know how it would go, but I had, like, some hope to be, like, maybe. And, like, I was the golden child growing up. Like, they pretty much, like, if anyone, like, I believe of out of me and my siblings would get them to, like, see what they were doing, it would be me. Because it's like, you gave me the best, and I still have stuff to say, you know? So it's like, you would think they'd be like, oh, like, make them realize. Yeah, like, I truly thought maybe, like, a smidge of them will be like, all right. And also it's like, like, from the whole, like, hoarding perspective, it's like, all right, there's someone here offering help that gets it. You know, Like, I understand. Like, there's less shame. I'd assume and, like, that situation to, like, accept the help. And so I, like, I don't know if I should read it. Like, I do have the message I sent to my mom. I feel like it, like, sums things up pretty well. I pretty much, like, said, like, I've been doing a lot of work healing, and amidst that, my relationship with you has become really difficult. And I recognize that, like, you and dad love me, like, Trying to give them grace. But for a long time now, I've let that, like, supersede my need to seek your accountability for a lot of things. As a child, you failed to give me a safe and stable home. The inconsistencies have been something that greatly affect me day to day and have added to, like, my daily struggles. And I messaged this to my mom because she was probably the better of the two to receive it. So I was like, as my mother, I know this is not easy for you to hear, but be assured that as your daughter, it wasn't easy for me to say. Knowing it, it could hurt your feelings over the years, whether you've realized it or not. You have used me as a form of emotional stability. And then, like, I pretty much laid out, like, my boundaries pretty clear. Like, the lack of accountability is what's keeping me away. And having to even vocalize it to you, to even, like. Like, you know, you should have been the one to bring up the conversation if you really wanted to. Like, that's adding to my frustration with you and got a little dramatic. And I was like, I cannot pretend like, my childhood didn't happen. My brain is not going to allow it. My rotting teeth in my mouth, like, I have blurry vision. Like, all of that will not allow me to, like, forget, like, the stuff that you have put me through. Like, and honestly, at that point, like, of course, like, I deserved to have a lot of anger and, you know, about everything I had been through, but I even at that time was more so, like, coming from the perspective of if there's accountability taken, like, I'm happy to work through that anger and, like, and see what, like, that would be. But after that, like, my dad took the phone, of course. And honestly, I literally assumed this would happen. That's also the part of my OCD that struggles. It's like, I unfortunately usually assume, right? Especially when it comes to my parents. And he was. He immediately flipped it on me and did kind of what he did throughout my childhood and was like, this is shaming. That's your perspective. Then, like, blamed me for things, trying to make me feel bad. Facts are, we neglected your siblings for you. We neglected financial obligations to make your, like, dreams of riding horses come true. And, like, all of these things that have nothing to do with, like, the living environment, right? The living conditions, etc. And then he was like, like, he always says this. Like, replay the tape. He's like, replay the tape. We've made so many sacrifices for you. And honestly, like, it's funny because it's like, I'll even say that. Like, I recognize that even aside from that, my parents did make a lot of sacrifices for me, but it's also a lot of things I didn't ask for them to do. And then that put a lot of burden on me. And then they used that as a chip to be like, guilt and, like, hate your sister because we've done more for her. And then now, years later, I confront you, even also for my siblings, like, I'm not just speaking up for me, it may seem that way, but, like, I'm also speaking up for them and how you treated them just to be like, well, it's all because of you. Like, we did all of that because of you. And it's like, oh, like, that's not true. And so after that, honestly, like, I was anger central. And, like, I could not contain my anger. And that was kind of like a turning point for me. Cause before then, you even saw that message. I don't think my parents probably deserved that amount of grace with everything I've said before. But I gave it, and I was so angry after. And I'd never been angry like that before. And pretty much that's what led to me going public and, oh, she's angry. Like, emotional. Cool. Yeah, fine. But I had gotten to a point where, like, my anger over, like, what they were doing, like, superseded my need to protect them. And, like, I think that happens for a lot of children and, like, with me also. So, like, that's, like, the last thing I want to make sure I do discuss is, like, the animals. Like, I spoke up. Not really even about my situation at first. I started locally in my hometown's Facebook, being like, these are the things I know about my dad. He's a backyard breeder. If you have bought a puppy from him, during these dates, if you wanna message me, I can give you information. But also just to warn people going forward, if you get a dog from him, it's probably gonna cost you money, health issues, XYZ thing. It's probably fraudulent. Probably not actually registered the way it's supposed to be. Whatever. And truthfully, was just, I was done. I had always cared so much about their opinion of me being the perfect daughter, whatever. Even aside from everything else, that that broke the dam. I was like, I don't care about their perspective of me. So I'm gonna post this because I don't care. I don't care if they get blowback for it. And also, it's like, I had carried the Shame for so long. And I like, here you can have some of it. You know, like you mentioned it goes.

B (143:08)

From almost the survival mode to then you trying to navigate if you can have this relationship with them and kind of help them also. And then the fact that how you were treated was just turned back on you. Obviously you know that's going to result in anger.

A (143:27)

I had realized. So at that point I like failed to say, like I visited home right before that, like last message. And like I saw the conditions and like they were horrible and like, do.

B (143:42)

You think they were worse than when you were in the building?

A (143:44)

You can like skim through this, show it to you. But like that's like the living conditions at the time I decided to speak up and going into the house like on the right, that had always been the living room. It's the living room from like my earlier homecoming photo. And it's literally full of dog, like all the stuff on the ground. That's like years, months, who even knows? Like, of like dry dog and then like the rest of the house, like I've seen it in disarray of course like throughout my life, but like it's definitely the worst it had been. And the dog that like I had always like kind of like, well, it was a kind of like I would say like the last animal I had attachment to, like when I left for college, like emotionally, he like spent his days in that room or chained to a tree outside. And mind you, like, they're using him for breeding. So it's like they're making money off of him and then like putting nothing back like into carrot. And like that's just very like synonymous for like what like they did to us, you know, like barely put anything into us, but then expect everything back from us. And like I also think that's kind of why it's like for the animals. Like I take it so hard and so personally because it feels like I'm doing what I wanted people to do for me. Like X amount of years ago. Like they don't like even more than like I didn't have a voice as a kid. Like the animals have like nobody to like speak on their living conditions, how they live. And after I took that video, like I literally took it because I was, I was scared of my father, like, because I had spoken up. So I was like, it's a big house. Yeah, it's a five bedroom rancher. It cost my parents half a million dollars and like they destroyed it. They got it in like 2005, I think. It was. And then, yeah, like, that's now like 20, 24. So, like, 20 years. Yeah.

B (145:38)

And like, the doors and the windows, like, everything.

A (145:40)

Yeah. And it's, like, dirty, like, and that's, like, from the animals. Like, and that's just even something like, like, I now know was, like, normal.

B (145:46)

This room with the red door, that's.

A (145:50)

Like, where the dog was kept and, like, where, like, all the dog shows and like, that earlier, the, like, straight pink dress, like, photo, that's from that room. Like, and, like, back then, I think it had carpet. Now, like, a lot of the rooms, like, as it progressed now to like, this point, my parents, like, have turned both my, like, siblings rooms and my room into, like, animal hoarding rooms. Like, and there used to be carpet, then it was brought up to the subfloor, then the subfloor was then, like, like, just exposed. And now it's just ruined. Ruined with mobile.

B (146:25)

So how many animals have you saved from their house on your own?

A (146:30)

3 out of my 5 owned animals are from saving them. And since then, honestly, it's hard to know because, like, once I spoke up, there were so many people. Like, the frustrating thing is, honestly, so many people really still to this day do not care in my hometown. Like, they protect my father. And like, that video I posted, like, on their Facebook page, I literally had someone be like, how do I know this isn't just a random shed you took a video in? I don't know. Use your brain, you know?

B (146:57)

And the thing is too, you know, I think it's one thing, obviously, besides the mental health aspect. Yeah, it's one thing. It's if two adults are choosing to live in that environment.

A (147:06)

Yeah. And like, that's what I even say is like, no, it's like the order. But, like, right.

B (147:10)

It's like, there's animals living there. And, like, and I think too.

A (147:13)

And it is like a hort. Like, I've like, kind of realized, like, it is, like a hoarding thing. Like, and it is, like, I think common, like, in the later stages of hoarding. And like, my parents think they're doing good. They're like, we're rescuing animals so they don't have to go to a shelter. But then it's like, counterintuitive because also, none of your animals have ever been fit in my lifetime. So you're contributing so many kittens and puppies. And that is something that inspired me to speak up, is like, I would see dogs in my hometown being lost, given up, and they were the breeds that my father would breed. And I'm like, I wonder how much he contributes to. And it's like, my father went from breeding golden retrievers, then to huskies, now to corgis. Like, he breeds whatever he thinks is making the most money at the time. He's really not a reputable breeder, yet people are still out here defending him and, like, like, being like, I got a good dog from him. Like, happy you had a singular good experience. But, like, there's so much, like, proof to the contrary.

B (148:11)

I'm surprised people don't go there and think, I don't want an animal from here.

A (148:14)

Like, that's, like, what I don't get is, like, that room, especially, like, once you go into the left, the dining area, that's, like, where it, like, usually be cleaned up at that point. Like, they'd clean up the best they could, but, like, that's it. And, like, I literally have, like, pictures of, like, they have, like, puppy. Like, this is how they would, like, present the puppies to people in that room. Like, in a little, like, swimming pool. Like, sawdust. Like, if you look at the ground, like, what do you think? Like, I grew up and thought it was normal, but now, like, I'm like, how do you visit and not look at the floor and not, like, get concerned? See? And, like, there were some people, like, once I spoke up who were like, I went there. People literally went there to buy stuff from, like, Facebook marketplace from them and my parents. Like, one of the. And like, this is, like, thing is, like, adult dogs are disposable to breeders once they can breed anymore. And literally, like, a lady got a dog from my parents just because she went to pick something up. The dog ran up to her. She said, this is a cute dog. They said, do you want a dog? Gave it to her. Yeah, like, it's wild that, like, people, like, I don't even know, like, and that is, like, just a sad thing. Is, like, truly, the people that will buy from him probably will keep doing it because they just want a cheap puppy. They don't care, like, what animals are harmed in the making of it. Like, they. They don't care that the mom is, like, being neglected and abused. Like, barely ever taken to the vet. Like, they don't even care that, like, they've been lied to. Cause, like, I literally am like, hey, guys, you've been lied to. Like, and a lot of people really, like, defended it. And then, like, from then on, luckily, like, I got in contact with, like, a lot of people. And, like, I'll say, like, like, the one good thing about me, I'll say my father gave me, is I'm just as stubborn as he is, but I'm the opposite. Like, I've always been, like, strong armed, about, like, justice, doing the right thing. And, like, maybe that is what he thinks he's doing. It's just not the right idea. But, like, when was the last time.

B (150:06)

You spoke to them?

A (150:10)

I think, like, May of last year. Because February is when I went public and I started posting on Facebook. And, like, honestly, I won't even say I'd. Like, I just had contact with them from, like, February of 2024 to, like, May 2024. Fighting with them on Facebook, like, with people and, like, kind of, like, debating with them. Because, like, when I went public, my dad then tried to, like, like, she's defaming me. She's slandering me. I work in the legal field.

B (150:36)

Right.

A (150:37)

I know.

B (150:38)

So, like, why would you do that? I, like, why would you waste time.

A (150:40)

Out of your life? And why would I want to pretend this life out of anything? Like, I'm embarrassing myself, you know, like, two inches in this process. Like, and I literally even said that to him. I was like, it's a shame to even admit that I lived here. Why do you think I want this? And then he called me, like, a disgruntled teen. Like, a troubled teen, mind you. I just told you I had, like, good grades and was, like, studying by candlelight. Like, anyone who knew me from school, aside from, like, the other stuff, they would literally tell you I was a nerd, a bookworm. Like, I didn't even if I wanted to, I didn't have access to go out to, like, high school parties and whatever. And then he, like, says, I, like, drank and drove and crashed his cars. Never did that. Like, all of these things. Like, he just threw out, like, what narcissists do. Like, outlandish things. Outlandish things. Like, to distract. But it's like, guys, I think the things I'm posting with quite hard proof. Like, my father can't show you any proof of me being a troubled teen. And then, like, even, like, what's so crazy and so unethical of him is, like, online, he's like, she has. Has borderline personality disorder and that's why she's, like, doing this. I don't. And, like, if anyone's listening that does, like, no harm. But, like, that those.

B (151:52)

There's images and videos of, like, in no world is that okay for, like, a child.

A (151:57)

It is, like, a dissonant thing. Of people don't want to, like, accept the reality that, like, children can actually live like this, that parents can actually be this horrible. And even, also, especially without even really meaning to maybe, like, giving, like, some great. Like, it's like, with hoarding and stuff, it's like, they may not really mean to be this horrible in that sense, but you can unfortunately end up being a horrible parent even when you think you're trying your best. And that doesn't sit right with people. And like. And so, yeah, like, people were saying that, and it's like, mind you, it's like, this town I've grown up in, it's like those same people that are, like, defending them. It's like, you've probably known of me just as longer. Like, it's insane to, like, think that, like, people are like, this is family drama. And my town, I think, just very much has that rhetoric. Unfortunately, a lot of people can have. That helps abusers get away with. Stays with what happens in the family. Stays in the family. And it's like, okay, cool. But the only reason I'm speaking up as his daughter is because you guys are funding his business in this community. You're the ones. And also, I just really wanted to speak up. Cause I'm like, I do not understand why he's not in trouble. Yeah.

B (153:05)

And I was gonna say, too, it's something where it's like, you know, I think you speaking up not only brings awareness to other children that could be involved in this situation, but also about this mental illness.

A (153:17)

Like, the fact that, like, it's. It's. It is like. And like, that's the thing. And I even actually have gotten messages from people who hoard as, like, a mom. And they're like, the comments from people. Because I get so many comments from other people, like, saying their stuff in my comments, and they're like, I saw the comment. And especially, like, the main thing is, like, social isolation. They're like, I saw your comments, and it's really like, you know, nipped me in the bud to, like, go do something. Because I realized, like, my daughter can't have sleepovers. And that's because of me. Like, things like that. It's like, I also hope for that too. Like, it's not to break that sleepover, like, just for, like, the kids. Like, I hope that, like, me speaking out can. Cause, like, I even see that for my parents, there is, like, a point of no return. In a lot of ways. I think that, like, like, hoarders get to where it's like, well, you can't ask for help now. Like, it's kind of like, you know, beyond that. So they may have gotten to that point. But, like, I want maybe to try and see if there is, like, a way to, like, support like, people like my parents before it gets to that point. Because there is usually, like, children involved. Animal hoarding is very common with hoarders because, like, my parents think they're helping. Like, they think that, like, they are loving and super caring for the animals. Like, that's the reality. And then, like, like, I just don't get how they don't see it. And then I did end up getting them in trouble finally. But it, like, took, like, literally pulling teeth, like, for months. I was, like, conversing with every, like, powerful person. Like, I could try to. But then also, like, my father, weirdly, because he did, like, the political stuff, running for, like, town committee, whatever. It was like when I was in college, like, people were protecting him because of that. And I'm like, what this have to do? Like, this is nothing to do with, like, small town politics. This is literally just straight up criminal neglect of, like, animals and children. Like, I don't know what else you want me to, like, say, like, he's never, like, been charged with anything, of course, except for, like, the violations, like, he'll get from, like, the co and like, even that I'm like, that's not far enough. Like, what happened last year ended up in, like, me posting online. I posted anywhere and everywhere. Animal organizations all over were, like, messaging my local town, advocating, like, with me to be like, hey, we want a response. You need to do something. And the response was very little. I had to go to a municipal meeting. That actually probably is the last time I talked to my parents, really, I went to a municipal meeting. It was on Zoom. Thank God I didn't have to see my parents in person that time. But, like, I had to pretty much go up against my dad in a meeting, like, again, like, in the town, and be like, yeah, like, these are the reasons why you need to not give him a kennel license. Or, like, if you do, like, you need to do it. So you're actually going to regulate him. You're going to, like, show, like, you're going to inspect. Like, you have to put in the footwork. Like, I know him. Like, he. Even though I've reported and made this public, it doesn't matter. He's going to keep doing what he's doing unless you make it obvious, like, like, yeah, that he can't. And that it's, like, hard for him to do it. And that is a sad thing is, like, I just had to make it difficult for him to do it, to not, like, do it really. You know, like. And so then he got a violation. But it's like, I literally, like, it's just so sad that, like, I had to do it, you know, after X amount of years. X amount of, like, people that he's harmed. X amount of animal. Like, who even knows how many animals he's like, like, put out into the, like, the world and the community and like, or that haven't survived.

B (156:48)

And I think that's.

A (156:48)

Yeah. And that's even, like, that is like, something that was so commonplace. Like, animals starved and died also at my home and are buried, like, at my property.

B (156:57)

Realize is it's at this. At this point, I feel like, like, yes, you're speaking out for yourself and your siblings and other people, but now it's like, you're not trying to get them in trouble to, like, like, start a war.

A (157:10)

Yeah. It's between. My daughter's just disgruntled. Like, I don't want. You don't want to see that way. I wanted to, like, get back at you. I'd be, like, messaging you how horrible yeah, you were or something. You know, it's like trying to. I want animals. And, like, literally I did. So, like, that's like, the other, like, main thing I posted about is, like, after I went public, took that video, like, my dog that I, like, saved from there. Like, I was like, I can't do it. Like, I need to get him. I don't live in a place that's probably meant to have him because he's a bigger dog and whatever. But I was like, I need to do something, even if it's, like, short term, and I find him a better place. Like, I literally took him out of the yard and left and, like, told them, like, you're not getting him back. And, like, even, like, how I said, like, they just give. Like, they didn't care, like, because they were done using him. And, like, from then on, like, he had so many diseases, mind you. I had to cover, you know, hundreds of dollars, flea treatment, thousands of dollars on his dental. Like, because he. That room he was in, there's also, like, crates in there. So I guess at one point they would close him in the crates. His, like, teeth are all broken from, like, pulling on it. And, like, that's also something that, like, kept my anger, like, getting him, like, kept my anger going in a good way because I got him. And, like, I kept on, like, my parents on the town, like, on people. Because I'm like, all the stuff I'm seeing that he's gone through is not, like. Like, it reminded me of, like, myself, like, getting him and watching him adjust to, like, normalcy. And, like, I was like, I'm not letting this go. Like, I can't. Like, it's like, a thing where it's like, it sucks that it's been burdened on to me because that unfortunately was kind of, like, my legacy in the family growing up to, like, take care of everything. But speaking up has become, like, my burden. Like, it's my purpose. And, like, I am, like, finding, like, like, good in it now. But, like, at the time, it sucked that it's like, I'm the one having to do this. I got them in trouble. Like, and now it's, you know, like, I always say, it's like, people, like, hate on. Like, there's a big, like, you know, adult children who go no contact are, like, ungrateful, like, on the Internet. Like, that's like, a common thing. But it's like, I was so great. Like, I did everything I could to, like, help them beforehand. I offered, like, even before I think I went public, I, like, like, told them because, like, I did work. I was like, I can get you in with a rescue organization to, like, help unload animals, like, without, like, shame involved, you know? Like, I can help. Like, let me do something. But, like, they're like, no, we're happy with our animals. We're not gonna let them go to a shelter, like, XYZ thing. But then also, mind you, I don't even think, like, my town went to remove animals. Like, even after everything, all they did was allow them to license all the animals they have. So then, okay, they license everything. Now they're in code, and it's like, okay. But they still have over. Like, I think, like, my local code is, like, 10 or more dogs at, like, my hometown. Like, and then if you have more than that, it's considered, like, commercial. I know. Like, you need a kennel license. And my father, like, I'm still sure to this day, like, I'm not positive because I haven't, like, been around as much, obviously, but, like, I'm still pretty sure he has, like, like, 10 plus dogs. Literally, on my birthday this year, I looked at his Facebook, and he turned my childhood bedroom into, like, a duck and chicken pen. Like, and even that's, like, after he got in trouble, you know, like, he really, there's no. And, like, even then, I'm like, I care about all the animals. Like, it's not just, like, the dogs and the cats and, like, the easiest, like, like, the easier things to, like, get people to care about, I guess. Like, it's like, everything that he does that, like, you know, in ways, like, is like a secondary harm and trauma probably for the rest of my life, like, having to, like, just know, like.

B (160:54)

Know that it's happening.

A (160:55)

And even people say, like, I feel so much secondary, like, grief for my parents that this is their life, you know, Like, I don't want this for them. Like, I want for them to change, you know, like, and to want better for the remainder of their years. Like, who wants to live? Like, they're seen. Like, I even have had, like, obsessive thinking. Like, how would anyone want to live like that in their senior years? And, like, it's not right.

B (161:17)

It's not healthy.

A (161:18)

And it is, like, I think common when people get into senior age for, like, hoarding to become a thing just, like, naturally, because you don't physically have, like, you know, the capacity spring clean or whatever. But, like, it's just like, it's been.

B (161:31)

Going on for so long.

A (161:31)

Yeah. And like, to already be that point before you. And that's also. It's like the burden of responsibility. When my parents get sick, like, who's taking care of them? Like, when they pass away, who's dealing with the hoarder home? Like, you know, that's all, like, stuff that, like, children reporters have to, like, think about. Have, like, anticipatory grief for. And, like, so, yeah, like, I spoke up and, like, it didn't go, like, the best, I'd say, like, in my hometown. But, like, I did get stuff accomplished. And then that's what led me to be, like, I'm gonna talk about stuff on TikTok. Honestly, people seem to, like, care way more about. About stuff, like, there. And I, like, started getting, like, support. And honestly, like, I think I posted there more, trying to be like, here's my story, and hopefully it'll draw attention to, like, the animal stuff and, like, get them the, like. Because that's what I was concerned about at the time. But, like, I simply just, like, posted it. Like, the picture of, like, me and those dresses. Like, that's what has, like, gained traction online. Because it is, like, kind of people have said it's, like, poetic in a sense. Like, like, I'm happy, I'm smiling, pretending like everything's okay. Like, but the background literally just like, shows you, like, how atrocious, like, everything was behind closed doors. And, like, people have really, like, seen that. And then, like, seeing how many people have related to it is, like, what's kept me going. Cause, like, of course, at first I'm sharing for, like, my situation and trying to help it, but now that, like, I've realized that there's so many kids like me, there's kids still living it that have messaged me that, like, like, I'm like, I'm happy to help, like, any kid that, like, is living, like, me currently or getting out. Because even sometimes I say, like, leaving is the hardest, like, adjustment, like, for us. Like, yeah.

B (163:09)

Because even though you know it's wrong, that's your normal.

A (163:12)

That's what you're used to. Even without, like, mental health and stuff. Like, once you leave, like, learning all of that stuff, like, you're literally like a baby. Yes.

B (163:21)

By yourself.

A (163:22)

I was my friend. Friends used to be like, summer, you have no street smarts. But it's like, I have no street or house. Like, I didn't know, like, common sense things, like, when it came especially to, like, home life living. Like, my roommates, like, would have to tell me how to, like, like, when to clean, how to clean. They'd be like, summer, did you think you cleaned dishes? And I'm like, yeah, they're like, you know, like, just like, even little things like that, that it's like, I hope to, like, break the shame around it and, like, also, like, hoping that, like, other people can be inspired to, like, be nicer to kids like me, like, or even, like, adults like, you truly like it. And it's like, such a common, like, thing. Like, you don't know what people are going through. Like, you really need to, like, off, like, and even I say, like, with my parents, of course, like, I want them to be held responsible. But I also do believe a part of, like, the issue that leads to hoarders not getting help is, like, not being like, like, approached without, like, shame or etc. Like, yeah, of course I'm shaming them on the Internet, I guess, like, in posting my story, but it's more. So I've gotten into a point where it's not about shaming them. It's about, like, advocating for the kids like me that literally have no choice.

B (164:33)

That's what I was gonna say, too. And I think that you, you know, you serve as this, like, you said, like, this advocate, this light in the darkness. And I feel like a lot of kids, like we were talking about before, probably do have a lot of shame and embarrassment and guilt. And by seeing you talk about it, that could make them feel less of that, which I think is so important.

A (164:56)

Yeah, like, that's, like, really, truly is, like, the biggest thing and, like, the biggest takeaway and, like, thing that I feel like needs to get across to kids like me is like, the shame is not yours. Like, right. It's okay, like, to start placing it, like, where it belongs on your parents. It feels so hard to find. Like. Yeah. And, like, everything you did, like, truthfully, like, in a lot of ways, it helped me. Like, when I left for college, like, I left it all behind, of course, like, caught up to me. I need to heal. But I went to school and I was like, that's not my life anymore. Like, that doesn't need to be, like, how I live and exist in the world. You know, I can be different. But, yeah, it's like, I will say, like, there's positives and, like, I know so much about animals because of how much I had to deal with. Like. Like, I do feel like I'm different from other people and, like, how much I love them and care for them because of, like, how much, like, I've had to witness and stuff. And, like, that is, like, where it's like, you start finding, like, pride, purpose, and, like, stuff. And, like. And it's, like, sucking. Cause, like, I know, like, I don't like it being like, well, everything you go through has a reason. It's like. Like, I hate to think that there's a reason for it. But then now it's like, I'm getting to the perspective of there's a purpose. Like, now in, like, what I've been through, I get to use it to, like, make other kids feel seen and to help, like, because that is a thing. It's like, there's so many animals and other, like, defenseless. Defenseless things besides, like, children, like, in situations like this. And, like, I just hope to be able to make, like, them have a voice because it is something that. It's, like, took me 30 years, I think, like, 20, 30 years, like, to be able to, like, like, talk about it publicly. Because for so long, you're kind of taught that that is, like, against what? Like, against your family. Like, you're not allowed to. So, like, even though it was the scariest thing I've probably ever done, like, I'm so happy I did it. And, like, yeah, like, that effectively cut my contact with my family in a lot of ways. But, like, I'll never. I'LL never regret it because, you know, because you're helping so many, like, saved a lot. Like, when I went public, a lot of people, like, went and, like, saved animals from, like, my parents and, like, rescue organizations were able to, like, do stuff. So it's like, there's like, a win. And of course, like, you find the.

B (167:21)

Positive in the negative, you know, And I think, like, it doesn't have to be that it happened for a reason then to now. It's just like you're taking this situation that you grew up in and something that you dealt with, you know, and you're. You're finding the positives that you can turn from it.

A (167:36)

Yeah. And the. The main, like, thing I've even just learned in, like, therapy and stuff that helped me is, like, perspective shifts of, like, just taking everything not as black and white. Like, it's not, oh, well, I. I'm so, like, mean and, like, going against my parents. But it's like multiple things can exist. Like, that's like, the main thing I have learned and that's helped me is, like, two or more truths can coexist. Like, especially in complicated situations like this, I can love and care and want the best for my parents.

B (168:09)

And it's clear that you do.

A (168:10)

Yeah. Like, while also, like, mutually, like, saying.

B (168:14)

This is not okay.

A (168:14)

Like, this is not okay. You caused me harm and, like, I need accountability for it.

B (168:19)

And you're continually causing animals harm.

A (168:21)

Yeah. And it's like. And it angers me. Like, and it's like, people always say, like, oh, you get it. Like, it's like, oh, you got educated. And now it's like. And actually has nothing to do with my degree. I'd say, like, it's all about, like, even, like, I'd say, like, how people say, like, when they have children and that breaks the cycle. Like, I don't know if that'll ever be my journey or not. But, like, my animals have done that for me, like, taking care of them and, like, realizing how simple. Like, yes, of course. Like, I get annoyed having to walk my dog, whatever, like, in the rain, Annoying things, like. But I, like, could never imagine treating like, them the way that my. My parents have. And, like, justifying it. Like, it just. That's the thing that will never make sense to me. No matter how much I love my parents, no matter how much I feel as though they love me. That's, like, the thing I'll never be able, you know, to make sense and connect the dots for. And it's because it's not my Responsibility to do that. It's theirs to, like, take accountability, to say, like. And even then it's like, like, this is why, like. And I'd understand. Like, that's the sad part is like, I understand even, like, what led my parents to this. But, like, does an excuse for the. I was going to say too, you.

B (169:38)

Know, that the thing is, is, you know, maybe in. In some way they did their best with their children, but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable.

A (169:49)

Yeah. And, like, that's where it's like, that truly is, like, something my therapist has definitely said, where it's like, yeah, like. And that's where, like, the two or more truths thing, like, helps so much. It's like, they can do their best while I can also be. Like, that best was not good enough for me. Like, that's allowed to exist because growing up, it was like black and white. I was like, okay, could be worse. So my parents are good people. Like, you know, it was so easy to justify, and now it's not, you know.

B (170:15)

Well, I'm so grateful that you speak out about your story. You know, I think that it's so important. I still think, obviously it's a topic that you hear about, but it's not really often I feel, like, talked about in such depth and detail. And maybe when it is, it's people that are older and have had more time to process it. So I almost feel like that's kind of what I was saying before, of, like, the fact that you are younger. I feel like you become this advocate for other young kids and people that are going through it. And I think it gives people a different perspective of, like, what I just said of. Of, you know, having this balance of knowing in your mind, like, okay, maybe my parents have an issue and a mental illness and this is their best, but that doesn't make it right. And that doesn't mean that I need to stay silent about it, you know, because in the grand scheme of things, by you speaking out about your experience and situation, it helps more people than by staying silent and carrying, you know, guilt and shame and whatever else comes with it.

A (171:12)

Yeah. And it's like, it truly is. It's like, I want the best. Best for everyone. It's like the people like me, the parents of children like me, like, I want them to want the best for themselves, like, and to, like, live a better life. Like, this isn't healthy for anyone involved in this situation. Yeah.

B (171:32)

Well, you did amazing. Seriously.

A (171:34)

Thank you so much.