B (2:17)

Because it could be like a form of coping. Right.

A (2:20)

Absolutely, absolutely. And, and you know, we cope any way we can.

B (2:24)

Yeah.

A (2:24)

You know, and those coping skills oftentimes kind of help us get through that trauma and keep us alive and keep us, you know, feeling safe. And then. Yeah. And then we realize, oh, that doesn't really work for me anymore. And Then a lot of the time, there are people that don't have the resources to change those things. The resources and the support to change those things. And so that's something else that I. That I feel strongly about making visible and talking about. So anyway, in terms of me. So I was kind of collectively raised by not just like my mom, but also my grandparents, my aunt. I was kind of grew up in, like, a multi generational kind of household, but there was a lot of instability. There was a lot of violence, there was a lot of ptsd, there was a lot of drugs, kind of all of the classic symptoms of, you know, dysfunction and generational trauma specifically. And so my parents divorced when I was like a year old, and my dad was extremely violent. My mom was hospitalized multiple times even before she was pregnant with me. I'm the youngest of three on my mom's side, and then I'm my dad's middle child. So I have a younger brother and younger half brother and half sister. So with all of that violence that my, you know, intimate partner violence that my mom experienced with my dad, she developed ptsd. And I also think that she may have had some form of neurodivergence that went unnoticed. You know, like, growing up, she, you know, young, little black girls were not assessed in that way. Obviously, any. Any girls really were really assessed for that. But I think that she did struggle in some way with some sort of something. I don't know what. But that led to a lot of instability throughout my childhood and inconsistency in terms of the support that I received from my parents and my dad. Like, I didn't really have, like, a connection to him growing up. He was, like, in prison for parts of my childhood. I knew the only. I didn't really know him. I saw him every once in a while, but I kind of mostly, as a kid, knew him from my mom's perspective. And from my mom's perspective, he was like the bad guy. Right. And obviously there's, you know, you know, he was. He harmed her. So, yeah, he. He did things that were really awful, obviously, but I didn't really have, like, you know, my mom was very. She didn't try to, like, sugarcoat that. She. She didn't try to, like, protect me from, like, the. Her version of him. Right. So some of the. And then my grandparents, you know, my grandparents were. They were like a constant growing up. They were. I was extremely close with both of them. My grandfather, my mom's parents, and both of them are gone now, and they kind of tried to fill in the blanks and as best they could, you know, financially. And just like my grandfather would like drive all the way from one end of Sacramento, where I grew up in California, to the other to pick me up and take me to school because my mom was just like not present, not, you know, or her car was broken or she, you know, I don't know, had something else going on. So my mom, you know, when she did pick me up from school growing up, she was like often late. She would like, you know, that was one of the things that was like the common thing. She was like bringing me to school. She was like picking me up like all throughout my childhood. And I was like once left at school until nightfall. I don't even know like how like CPS wasn't called. Maybe it was. And I just didn't know what had happened. But that was like the kind of the, the level of neglect that was experienced. I would go to school with dirty clothes, I would wash out my own clothes, the sink, when I was like in like third grade, you know, that kind of thing. So I, I think me and my brother and my sister with our mom, when we were with our mom, we were like heavily parentified. And I think that that played into me feeling as I grew, that played into me feeling like I got a, you know, hyper independence. I got, I got to take care of this. Like I, I only, I'm the only one I can rely on basically. And yeah, I remember once in sixth grade, another memory or like anecdote about this, this part of my history is I remember my 6th grade teacher would sometimes pick me up in the morning from my house and take me to school. And that is another, like another side to my experience growing up was there were, there were helpers. All throughout my childhood and all throughout my adolescence there were people that showed up for me and my siblings. One of the things it was like my aunt was everyone in my family were involved in the arts in some sort of way. So my aunt was really into theater and my mom was really into writing. So they got us involved in this local theater that was like owned by, created and owned by black people. It was like a black owned theater in Sacramento. So it was a space where we could take lessons, acting lessons, singing lessons for like at a really low cost. It was like a, it was like almost like a community center, even though it was like a children's theater. And then when I got to my adolescence, I was able to direct plays. I was able to like full on productions that they Flipped the bill for and supported me and doing. Yeah. So I think that, like, having this, there was another side to, like, my experience as a kid, which was, like, people. You can't trust anyone, necessarily. I think I felt that way. But also, there are helpers. There are people that care about you that will show up for you.

B (8:33)

You saw, like, both sides of things.

A (8:34)

Yeah. And that was like. Yeah, there was, like, two sides to my experience growing up, and I think I really clung to those helpers.

B (8:43)

Like, it gives you hope.

A (8:44)

Absolutely. And. And that's another thing, too. It's like, you know, I myself want to try to be that, you know, like, for other people in any way I can, which is kind of one of the reasons why I think I ended up here in the first place. But. And talking about my story, because it's. I'm actually a pretty private person. But I think that if. If one person, even one person out there sees me talking about this and relates to it or it resonates with them in any sort of way, then, like, sweet, you know, And I can.

B (9:19)

Promise you it will. It'll be more than one, for sure.

A (9:23)

Hopefully. Yeah. So. And in terms of, like, what I experienced, in terms of, like, hearing about food and body size, that was like a really, like. It's kind of like, when I think back to those instances of people in my family talking about that kind of stuff, I'm like, well, no wonder. You know what I mean? There was a lot of discussion about body size and weight loss. There was a lot of, like, finish everything on your plate. But, oh, you're looking a little, you know, and you could say just like a seemingly innoxious comment about somebody's body, and you never know how they're going to internalize that. And I remember the day, the exact moment where that switch flipped in my brain and I decided to start purging. I was in sixth grade, and I had just had my appendix removed. And that's a whole nother story in and of itself. But it never burst, but it was big. They removed it. And I remember my grandparents picking me up from the hospital, and I came home, and I was slowly, like, you know, you can't really walk. After that surgery, I was, like, slowly walking into the house, and I sat down, and my grandmother looked at me, and she was like, well, at least you lost some of that weight. I think some of that weight was because of that. That appendix. My grandparents are Southern. That's why I'm talking. That's why I'm doing that voice But I just remember, like, I would. Like, I was like, oh, I'm big. I'm bigger, you know.

B (11:02)

Yeah. I think it makes you view it almost like it's from a different lens, you know, like, you see things a little bit differently.

A (11:10)

And that is developmentally that, you know, that time in your life when you're.

B (11:14)

Like, you're not really thinking about it at that age.

A (11:17)

Like, that's when that switches exactly around, you know, the preteen age, you start that. You start, like, seeing yourself through other people's eyes. Right. You become. And Right. A lot of that is inaccurate because most people.

B (11:30)

And you're judging about you.

A (11:32)

Yeah. And you're judging your. Yeah, exactly. And you feel insecure. And so. Yeah, that's when it switched. And I. And somewhere around that time, I can't remember if it was that day or somewhere around that time. I don't even know where I got. Maybe I got the idea from like, watching one of those, like, made for TV movies on, like, TLC or something that was like, Sarah has an eating disorder and she's eating from trash cans. You know what I mean? But I got the idea to start purging, and I, I. There were other things happening at that time that I'll kind of back up and talk about too, in my life. So my mom, growing up, we would get evicted from housing situations, and we were, like, functionally houseless from time to time, especially in my early childhood. And around that time, right before I went into seventh grade, we had gotten evicted from a house. And I went to. Me and my sister went to stay with our grandparents, and my brother went to stay with my mom and my aunt. And I remember my aunt being like, I don't want to have teenage girls in this house. And so I got. So there was the element of separation and feeling like, kind of rejected, you know, and then there was the element of, like, losing a home. Right. And how traumatic that was and, like, having to live with my grandparents. And around that time, my grandmother's health started fading, failing her. She had diabetes. She had congestive heart failure. So she ended up having open heart surgery. And more and more, my grandfather had to become her caregiver. And I'm the youngest. So when I was younger, he. He and my grandmother were able to care for me. But then as I got went into my adolescence, they were less available. So I kind of. That was like a turning point for me, you know, that I was kind of on my own. I was kind of feral as a, as a, as an Adolescent as a teen. And, yeah, there was this. Also. There was this theme of. That. My. That I saw with my mother. This theme of looking outside of one's self to find a solution to one's problems. So my mom, when. When I was a kid growing up, she was, like, really into. I don't know if you've heard of this, but there's this. There's this organization called the Berkeley Psychic Institute. I don't even know if it's okay for me to, like, say this.

B (14:04)

Well, go ahead and I'll say, yeah.

A (14:06)

Yeah. Okay. So my mom, basically, it's like a benign cult. You pay a bunch of money, they teach you how to be a psychic. They have, like, psychic fairs.

B (14:15)

Okay.

A (14:15)

You go to their classes. And by becoming.

B (14:18)

But this is, like, on the Internet, right?

A (14:20)

No, it's like they had their own buildings.

B (14:22)

But, I mean, like, can you look it up?

A (14:24)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (14:25)

So then I'm sure it's fine for you to say, oh, okay. So I was just like, yeah, I don't know. No, I'm sure it's fine.

A (14:30)

Okay, Cool, cool. So, yeah, so my mom was a part of the Berkeley Psychic Institute.

B (14:34)

Okay.

A (14:34)

And she thought that becoming a clairvoyant would cure her issues or whatever. So she would have us, like, meditate and ground. There was one time where she, like, left us literally overnight because she was. This was like, further back, but she, like, left us overnight because she was meditating with her psychic friends all night.

B (14:57)

Interesting.

A (14:58)

And, yeah, it was wild, but. And now, like, it's something that I look back on and I'm like, huh?

B (15:04)

So she joined. It was like a cult type of thing. And she joined this when you were young.

A (15:09)

Yeah, yeah.

B (15:10)

Okay.

A (15:10)

Yeah, yeah. And she would say things like, oh, you know, you spiritually chose me as your mother, so you can't be upset about any of the things that are happening to you because you chose me. You chose this life. It's a trip, man. But, like.

B (15:29)

Well, it's interesting, too, because, like, you know, just from things that I've read about spirituality to a degree, they do say that, you know, we make those choices, but that it doesn't. On the flip side, it doesn't make sense of, like, why you wouldn't be upset about it. Just, like, it doesn't. Yeah, the two don't make. It's almost like they. I think that's where the cultiness comes in of it, Right?

A (15:52)

Absolutely.

B (15:53)

It's like, almost like excuses, because even with religion, they'll do the same thing. Of like, right. Everything's okay, because.

A (15:58)

Yeah. And if you just do these things.

B (16:01)

Exactly. Then every. Right.

A (16:02)

Everything will be fine. And that was. That was something that I think I kind of internalized this idea that, okay, if I do everything right. Right. I'll be okay. Right. So that there's, like, that element of perfectionism that kind of seeped into my psyche growing up, and that is. We now know, one of the traits that make a person more vulnerable to developing an eating disorder. Perfectionism. So. So, yeah. So moving back to, like, when I first started to present disordered eating, I. I started practicing bulimia, you know, and nobody knew about it. It was a very private thing. And then. And then I would, like, vacillate between that and, like, under eating restriction. Oh, I'm just gonna eat one kind of food on this day, or various things like that. And I started to. My body start. Body started to change. I started to become smaller. And I got positive feedback from other people and my family around that, you know, that was seen as, you know, a smaller body size was seen as, you know, a signal that you're healthy. You know, your body size is indicative of your health, which is another common thing, a common theme.

B (17:33)

Right. Which goes back to what we said, too. It's not all about what you're seeing on the outside because you have no idea what's actually happening.

A (17:39)

Yeah, yeah. Another thing that I experienced, not just in terms of, like, body size, but, like, what do you do with food? What is food and how, you know, and one of the things that. That was, like, hammered into me from very young was like, you finish your plate. You don't listen to your, like, body signals. You just finish your plate no matter what. And that was especially intense with my grandmother when I was little because she grew up in the segregate. Both my grandparents grew up in the segregated south out in the country where there was, again, all of this violence and scarcity that they were experiencing and just overturned trauma and, you know, segregation and all of these things were happening when they were coming up and in growing up. And so their way of feeling like they were successful was not only to move their entire family out of the south during the great migration, which is something a lot of people may not know about. But, like, a lot of black folks in the south moved away, and that was like, they were like, refugees basically, like, fleeing that. Those circumstances. And so you best believe, like, how that translated to, like, once we were like, we. They bought their own house and they're able to feed their kids. And they were piling your plate high.

B (19:05)

You better finish everything.

A (19:06)

Better finish everything on that plate. Exactly. And so that's, like, one of the ways that, like, generational trauma can translate into. You know, we're no longer in that situation. Right. We're no longer in the segregated South.

B (19:18)

It's like. It's kind of, like, built into them.

A (19:20)

But it's built into them to think that way. So, like, you know, I don't feel, like, upset or, like.

B (19:26)

Right. It's not like a blaming thing. Like.

A (19:28)

Yeah.

B (19:28)

Stand it. But it does go to show where it comes from, though.

A (19:32)

Exactly. I'm not like, you know, I love my grandmother. Like, I. Like, she was the most amazing person, but that was. That was what she taught me, you know, finish everything on your plate. And. And so. So, yeah. So as an adolescent, I started having a lot of difficulty in school. You know, like, seventh grade, I think, like, my first quarter or semester or whatever. I had, like, all A's and B's. And then, like, as soon as that move happened, the very next quarter semester, I can't remember what system it was at that time. All of my grades were, like, Fs and Ds. Like, it was just a very drastic, sharp change in my behavior and how I showed up and I didn't want to go to school. And I had this mom who was like, okay, you don't want to go to school? Yeah, I don't want to do anything either. Like, literally, she was super depressed. She had ptsd. She would lay in bed all day. She wouldn't take us to school. She was super checked out. So if I didn't want to go to school, I didn't have to really, like, you know, if I was with my mom, you know. And I remember at that time, I don't. I remember knowing that there was something seriously wrong with me, and I needed to find a way to, like, get out of these patterns that I was developing. And that's another theme is, like, I. I did have, like, kind of good instincts in a way, because I was, like, self.

B (20:59)

Aware.

A (21:00)

Yeah. I was, like, kind of self, aware, but I didn't have any resources to really hone that skill. Right.

B (21:06)

Or understand what was happening.

A (21:07)

Yeah. Have context for what was happening to me. So. So psychologically. Right. So I decided that I wanted to go on an independent study because it was too hard for me to show up to school and consistently get, you know, a care provider to take me to school even. So I did that. In my eighth grade year, I was on independent Study. And I would do this thing where I would stay up all night and I would take caffeine pills and I would like, you're supposed to do your work every day and then you have, you get like a homework packet. You do it every day and then you turn it in at the end of the week. I would not do my work all week and I would just stay up really late on the very last day and finish the whole homework packet on caffeine pills. Right. And then I would vacillate between like watching like MTV or like Adult Swim or whatever and binging on food and purging. And I was doing that when I was like, I don't know, like 13, you know, I was as a kid, basically nobody, you know, nobody knew what I was doing. I was, you know, at my grandparents house and they were just like kind of like off into the. Everybody was in their own rooms, you know, in that house doing their own thing. And my sister, also my older sister, who's four years older than me, moved out of the house when she was like 16 because she was just like, this is. I mean, she had her own stuff going on. And then my brother was at my aunt's house. So I was. There was, there was that theme of like isolation and just being alone a lot, which is, you know, another thing that happens, I think for people that are engaging in disordered eating. It's, it's very much a solo activity. Right. And you become very isolated. So I finally decided, okay, I think I need to like be around people. And so all of my decisions were just mine. You know, I, I was, I was just doing my own thing at this point. So I decided to go back to public school my freshman year and then part of my sophomore year. And then I tested out of high school when I was 15. And in California, they have this like California high school proficiency exam you can take. I don't know if they still do this, but they're like, yeah, you know, enough. You don't have to go to high school.

B (23:29)

I have heard about it, but I don't know like if it's dependent on where you're located or what or how.

A (23:34)

Yeah, it's super.

B (23:35)

But I have heard of it.

A (23:36)

Yeah. So it's basically equivalent to a ged.

B (23:39)

Okay.

A (23:39)

So I did that and, and I like studied for this test. Like it was the ged and I took this test and it was like super. It's not, it's super easy.

B (23:50)

Yeah.

A (23:50)

I don't mean to give anybody any ideas, but that was just what I experienced.

B (23:54)

Your experience?

A (23:55)

Yeah, at that time. And. And so I ended up, like, I got a little job during the holiday season as a gift wrapper, and I got to do a bunch of theater, and I just, like, wasn't in school. And then finally, When I was 17, I went to community college. But of course, I was not taking anything seriously at that time. I, you know, wasn't going to class on time. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't studying. I wasn't. But I was doing a lot of theater, and I, like, taught myself to play guitar and was able to engage in the arts. And I think that that element kind of kept me afloat for a while. Yeah. And kept me connected to people. So I think that if I didn't have. If I hadn't had that outlet, I probably would have deteriorated quite a bit faster.

B (24:44)

So at this point, like, all these years, were you still struggling with eating?

A (24:49)

I was. And the other thing that happened is when I was 15, I was assaulted. I was sexually assaulted. And then right after that happened, so I would, like, go. I would cycle in and out of these periods where I would not really eat regularly, not really purge, kind of restrict a little bit here and there, or I would try some weird food thing, like, I'm gonna be a raw foodist now, or.

B (25:14)

Yeah.

A (25:15)

And then I would. But then something would happen, and that was my standby, was to go back to purging. Okay, so right after the assault happens.

B (25:23)

It was, like, a trigger for you?

A (25:24)

Absolutely. I didn't know what was going on, and at that time, I didn't even know that it was rape. I didn't understand that that's what had happened. Even though I had told this person no.

B (25:36)

Yeah.

A (25:38)

So there was a lot of. Because of that isolation, I think there was a lot of things happening for me emotionally and internally that I. That were just going on. Going on unchecked.

B (25:48)

Right.

A (25:49)

You know, so. So finally, when I was, like, in my early 20s, I got a job working at a. Like, a Gymboree, playing music, working with kids. And I was like. I really. I like. This is. This whole Gymboree thing's kind of weird, but I really like the kids. And from there, I decided to start working with kids. And that was, like, my niche. I was like, I don't want to be. You know, I was doing theater, and I was doing music, and I was like, I have to find, like, a. Like a gig, like a job. Like, I have to find a way to stay afloat. Right. So I Did that. And I started working with kids and I started working at a. At a daycare at. Out of this woman's house. And when I started working, like, really working, I think I kind of got a little reprieve from my ED behaviors for a while. But I also became like a heavy smoker. And I think that also helped keep my disordered eating at bay. Right. To a degree.

B (26:49)

And it seems like too, from what I've heard with eating disorders, it kind of. What you mentioned about it kind of coming in waves, like cycles.

A (26:57)

Yeah.

B (26:57)

And I feel like it, you know, and it be. It is very dependent on kind of where things are in your life.

A (27:02)

Yes.

B (27:02)

Which I'm sure you'll get to also. But kind of shows the importance of. And goes back to what you were saying of where it kind of stems from like the trauma or something. Because it's like, it just goes to show that if you don't address the root cause, it's kind of always just like they're waiting for the next trigger to come out again.

A (27:21)

It's so true. And that is like, that is a really important point. Like, I think one of the things that makes it hard to pinpoint and diagnose is that for a lot of people, it's not this linear path. It's not this, like, it's not always just one symptom. It's not always just one thing.

B (27:42)

And if it comes and goes, I'm sure there's points where you're like, oh, I'm fine now, I'm fine. I'm better now.

A (27:46)

Absolutely.

B (27:47)

Right. And then it could be confusing of like, well, why is it coming back again? And honestly, some people might not even know that they have this trauma in their past that could be triggering this or causing it.

A (27:58)

Right. And I think, you know, for me, it's that. It's that. Oh, it's that open wound, that huge hole of disconnection. I think for a lot of people where you feel like you're alone or maybe you really were.

B (28:15)

Yeah.

A (28:15)

In a lot of ways alone. And people weren't supporting you the way you needed. And so what do you do? You know, you turn to something to self soothe. And yeah, we kind of touched on that one thing too.

B (28:27)

Like, being alone doesn't always mean like, yeah, you could be out in social settings and be physically around people, but you could feel alone within yourself because of what you went through or because of the neglect or the lack of parenting almost that you experienced. Because I think, like, even though there were people around you and you did have that support, essentially. Like, technically it was there.

A (28:49)

Yeah.

B (28:50)

But at the same time, you know, I always say this and I've learned this and seen this more during this show. Children hold on to a lot and I don't even think they realize it until they kind of grow up and get older.

A (29:03)

Absolutely.

B (29:04)

But even if you have that support around you, I feel like all kids want is their parents, you know, like, that's just your instinct. So when that's not there, I think it's very easy to, to hold onto that as a form of trauma and to really allow it to kind of seep in and make you realize, wow, like, even though I had people around me, I felt very alone. Like, I didn't feel like I really had a mom or the support that a mom or dad should give.

A (29:27)

Yeah. Attachment is everything. This is why I am. So now I'm just gonna skip ahead for just a second. I'm someone that has now has a bachelor's degree in psychology and I minored in religious studies and I'm currently getting my MSW at UNC Chapel. Hillary.

B (29:43)

Amazing.

A (29:44)

Yeah, so. And I also have an associate's degree in early childhood education. So child development has, was became a gateway for me to kind of understand myself. Right. And attachment. And I'm also a mom, I have a three year old daughter. And attachment is everything. It's, it's, it's. You know, what I had with my parents specifically was an insecure attachment with my mom and with my dad, I just, I just didn't ever get a chance to form any attachment, which is a wound in and of itself.

B (30:27)

Yeah.

A (30:28)

Right. So I feel like that is like, kind of, that is a really traumatic thing. That is like, like kind of the beginning of it all, I think for most, for most people. And the good news around that is that you can change your attachment styles. You can learn, you can unlearn those behaviors, you can, you know, you can find a way out of that.

B (30:52)

I think the sad and scary part is though, is not everyone is willing to do that, you know, like, and that's a scary thing with, with trauma. And in your childhood you could have somebody that has this happen and like, yeah, you can work on yourself and go to therapy and, and really come out of it okay and stronger and better and have a good understanding. But then there is the group of people that they kind of allow. And not by fault, but some people just, everybody's different. They allow that trauma to just take over them and destroy them. And I feel like Unless to some degree you're self aware, it's harder to seek out that help or even to even want it.

A (31:33)

The longer you're in it, the harder it is to get out of it.

B (31:35)

It's scary.

A (31:36)

And the deeper you go, the harder it is to get out. That is a fact. And I see that with my parents.

B (31:42)

Right.

A (31:42)

You know, my dad is a. Is a drug addict and has been for. I don't, you know, I. I don't really know how he is even still alive, to be honest. He's, you know, severely. Severely. There's a severe deficit there in terms of self awareness and in terms of his ability to connect with others. And the thing is, is like, the more you push down your own feelings and the more you distance yourself from your own emotions, the harder it is for you to have empathy for other people.

B (32:14)

Yeah.

A (32:15)

And empathy is such a, you know, I mean, that's another thing that I'm like really into because it is a form of resiliency, I think when we're able to empathize with other people and reach out and say, I need help and just keep reaching out. Because if you're dealing with addiction or an eating disorder or any of these things, that's the name of the game is you have to keep reaching out. And that's what I had to do to get out of. But the other side of that too is it's not just that I was willing to reach out. I think I just hit the mic. But I was also. I also had the resources to reach out to when I got into my adult life. Not, not so much when I was younger, but as I got older, I became better resourced. And that aspect of my life, I honestly just chalk it up to pure luck. I don't know. I don't. I don't know. I don't know why that happened. I wish it would happen to more people, you know, I don't know. Technically, I feel like I shouldn't be where I'm at in a lot of ways, you know, but so I'm going to kind of like fast forward a little bit to the time in my life where my eating disorder became profoundly challenging. And that was in my mid-20s. So I had been working in early childhood and I became certified as a preschool teacher. And that enabled me to get a job in the Bay Area. So I moved to the Bay Area. I was like, I don't know, 24 or 25. I stayed on my sister's couch for a little while to kind of get my Bearings and like, ended up getting a job at this preschool that I worked at for eight years. And that was a huge part of that stability that I was able to provide for myself for that period of time was a huge part of how I was able to stumble and fumble my way out of an eating disorder, basically. So that. That instinct of, like, I need. I need stability. Like, I need this thing that I did not have. That was a gut level feeling. And it's part of the reason why, like I always say, like, I. I live my life from my gut. Now I really do believe that, like, tapping into my inner wisdom has helped me. And it's been the times in my life where I've refused to do that and gone the other way that I've gotten into trouble. Yeah, the most trouble. So when I moved, there was a trigger there. That trigger of like, you know, when I first arrived in the bay, didn't have everything lined up, didn't have all my ducks in a row. What did that feel like? It felt like the stuff that I experienced in my childhood. My eating disorder just became a massive monster. I was binging and purging multiple times a day. I just had a really hard time focusing. And I was really. But the biggest fear that I had at that time, honestly, was gaining more and more weight. That's what I cared about at that time. I thought my weight was everything. I thought my weight was my worth as a human being. And so that's what I focused on. And I was just like, I can't. I can't get out of this situation. And then I remembered that I had. That my mom had gone to like a 12 step meeting. Throughout my childhood, different 12 step meetings centered around food. One was like, O A or like O A how? And I remember going to some of those meetings with her when I was a kid. And I remember going to AA meetings with my dad as a kid. So I was like, okay, 12 steps. Maybe there's a 12 step program that can help me.

B (35:56)

Yeah.

A (35:57)

And I found one that was called Food Addicts in Recovery Anonymous. It's not a very big 12 step program. It's not like everywhere like the other ones are. But it is a very strong. Has a big presence in the Bay Area. So I found. I just remembered that and I googled it and found a meeting. And I went to that meeting and I remember going into that meeting and the first thing that I noticed was like, all these women. There was like 100 people in this room and all these women were like going to the front of the room and talking about how much weight they had lost and how long they had been what was called abstinent, which I didn't even understand what that was at the time. And they were like, just get a sponsor. All of them. It was like. It was like being in a constant infomercial. They would all go up and they'd be like, I lost all this weight. Just get a sponsor today. Don't wait. Just start today with this program. Your life will get better.

B (36:55)

So was this program to help people or was it to help people lose weight?

A (37:03)

Well, Devorah, I'm gonna tell you, it's.

B (37:11)

What they said and what they did might have been a little different.

A (37:14)

Buckle in, girl. Okay, so. So that's what I saw is okay. And heard was just numbers, right? They're talking about their weight and their numbers. They told me to go to this business meeting, okay, the next day and get a sponsor because everybody goes to the. Everybody who's anybody goes to the business meeting where there's like 300 people in this big hallway. And the people that are sponsoring stand up and say they're available to sponsor. Well, this woman was sitting in front of me. She never stand. Stood up. But she turned around and she was like, hi. And she was like, so sparkly and just like there was. There was just a vibe about her. And she's like, I didn't stand up to sponsor, but I will sponsor you. I usually don't stand up because I want to find the right person to sponsor me. She was like, it's fate, you know, she's like, call me tomorrow morning at 6am and we'll get started. And I would, I would get up as early. Over time, I would learn the rules of what you're supposed to do in this program.

B (38:23)

And at this point, you don't really have a full understanding of what this is. You just remembered from when you were younger, going with your mom, looked it up and went, yeah, okay. And at this point, were you feeling insecure about your body still and just. Because I know that you were still very much in the eating disorder, you know, with the binging and purging. But how were you, I guess with your security and how you felt with your, with your body image?

A (38:48)

My self esteem at this time was incredibly low.

B (38:51)

Okay.

A (38:52)

So low that I had stopped doing theater because I thought that because of my weight, because of my body size. And at this time I was, I don't know, I was like fine, you know, I was not like super small, you know, I had some curvage, which is totally fine. But at the time, I thought that I needed to be a lot smaller, okay, Than I was, like, a lot smaller. And I, and I felt that because I was not small, because I was not thin and slim, I felt like that was the, that was my problem.

B (39:28)

Okay.

A (39:28)

You know, it wasn't. I had no idea. At this point, I had not even begun to even recognize the trauma that I had experienced from my childhood. I, I, I had no idea.

B (39:42)

So going into this meeting, do you think that you like looking back? Do you think that you were doing it to look for a sponsor to kind of help you get to where you wanted physically or to help you with, like, your mental health journey around the eating?

A (39:56)

After going to a couple of meetings, I just, I, I aligned myself with the philosophy of this group very quickly. And the philosophy was that the weight, the excess weight on your body is a symptom of a much deeper problem. And the deeper problem is spiritual in nature. That's what they kind of tout. They, they believe that the 12 steps are a spiritual program. And as you spiritually advanced, your insides will begin to mount your match your outsides. So that's, that's kind of the idea is that, oh, you will, you will, you will spiritually progress, and therefore, you.

B (40:38)

Will look better on the outside.

A (40:39)

You'll look better on the outside. And that's a reflection of the work that you're doing internally, of the spiritual work work, because this is a spiritual program. So here are the rules. Every day, you get on your knees and you ask for help from your higher power. And that higher power can be whatever you want it to be. But you, you have to get on your knees every morning and every night you write down your food before you talk to your sponsor, Your sponsor gives you a food plan. There is no food plan in fa. There's no official food plan. If you go into a meeting, they won't give you, like, oh, eat these things, okay? You have to get a sponsor first, and their sponsor is in charge of your food. So this person who is not. They're not a therapist, they're not a dietitian.

B (41:29)

They're not gonna ask you. So they weren't even, like, certified to be a dietitian.

A (41:33)

But they are uniquely. What, what is said is that they are uniquely qualified to guide you, probably because of the spirit, right, to guide you. They're uniquely qualified to guide you through this program because they have been through what you're going through, and their sponsor has been through what your grant, your grand sponsor, their sponsor has been through. I'm just. This is, you know, it's just so.

B (42:00)

Interesting to me how anything can be turned into.

A (42:04)

Yeah.

B (42:05)

Like, so culty and with these rules. Right. And they target. They genuinely target these very naive people that are. I mean, genuinely people that I think want help and are looking for help and are in a weak spot in their life. That's who they target. Because they know that they can get them. Because I think that they're. They're so easily manipulated.

A (42:27)

Yeah.

B (42:28)

Because they're. They're desperate to feel better.

A (42:30)

And you know what they call that desperation? A gift. It's called the gift of desperation. That is. That is a phrase. Yeah.

B (42:39)

A gift to them because they're getting you in there and wrapping.

A (42:41)

And the way you keep your gift is you give it away. So that kind of, you know, helps to sort of maintain this sort of, like, group, sort of group think mentality.

B (42:55)

Okay.

A (42:55)

Because there's an even. There is an evangelical kind of aspect to definitely this program. Like, they want you to come in, and if you're. If you're not ready to come in and if you're not ready to do. This program is for people that want it, it's not for people that need it. Most people, a lot of people out there clearly need it, given the obesity rates in the United States. This is. This is the perspective that I adopted over time. And there. There is very much like a, you know, a boot camp kind of element to getting abstinent. You're not allowed to speak in meetings unless you're an abstinent for at least 90 days. You're not allowed to tell your story. You're not allowed to speak your perspective in any way. You can go up to the front of the room and read the rules of the spiritual principles of.

B (43:50)

So the first one is that going on your knees and talking to your.

A (43:55)

That's not even talked about in the actual meeting.

B (43:58)

Okay.

A (43:58)

That's what your sponsor is going to tell you to do. That's what most sponsors in that program tell their sponsors to do. That. The ones that are, like, fringe and, like, rebellious sponsors are not gonna. Are gonna be like, do whatever you want with your spiritual. With your spiritual. But those people are seen as, like, not having strong recovery.

B (44:18)

Okay.

A (44:20)

Man. I am, like, just airing it out anyway.

B (44:24)

I love it. I mean, it's important, though, because these things need to be talked about. I mean, I didn't even know something like this existed.

A (44:31)

No, a lot of people don't. So here's another thing. You have to weigh and measure your food every meal. There's no snacking. You get three meals. You get a window of time when you can eat those three meals. All of this is told to you by your sponsor. And it's. There's no. So there's no flour, there's no sugar, there's no unspecified quantities. You're recommended to keep your food very simple in terms of how you prepare your food. You know, you're, you know, like, just. Just cook it. Like, don't add a bunch of seasonings. Don't add a bunch of flair. Your food is just fuel. And then there's also no unapproved quantities of food. So, like, I remember one time when I first. First, like, it was like my first week of abstinence. And they were like, if you're gonna eat like a whole piece of fruit, like an apple or whatever, you can just commit and say you're just gonna have one apple with whatever else you're having. I went to that store and I found the biggest apple I could find, man, because I was hungry. You know what I mean? So I was eating this very, very bare bones meal plan that, you know, didn't take into account the fact that I was a preschool teacher, the fact that I was quite young. And I don't want to trigger anybody with the thing that I'm about to say next. So if you're triggered by hearing numbers and weight, you know, just like fast forward a little bit.

B (45:54)

Warning.

A (45:54)

But yeah, but I lost a hundred pounds in eight months with this food plan. And my. I also lost my period and my hair started falling out and I was freezing all the time. I was. It kind of. This is something that when I look back on this time in my life, I'm kind of embarrassed about because I was so clearly starving. And. And it's just. I don't know why I have this feeling of embarrassment, actually, but it's just. I guess it's like, kind of sad that I was just going through these things. But anyway, I was. Me and my co workers, we were on a boat in the bay on a speedboat. It was like, for like a coworker, like, outing or whatever. And it was like, cold, but I was so cold that I literally just shivered the entire time. I couldn't, like, you're miserable.

B (46:49)

It's uncomfortable.

A (46:49)

I was miserable. I couldn't enjoy the experience of being out on this boat in the Bay Area in San Francisco, like, with my co workers, who I love. And like, a lot of Them are still good friends of mine to this day. You know what I mean? Like, I just. I couldn't fully engage in life at that time. And at the same time, all these people, everyone, Every meeting I went to, everywhere I went, anybody who saw me beforehand gave me just mountains of praise about how small I was. And very few people in my life at this time asked me if I was okay or asked me if I felt good or healthy or safe. Asked me if this was something that was, you know, sustainable. Like, I. I remember there was one co worker of mine who looked at me one day and he was like, so are you gonna be, like, done now at this weight? Like, done losing weight? Like. Like, I could tell he was trying to be really, really sensitive. And I, you know, I just look back on those little moments where I was just kind of, like, out there with my illness, but at that time, I really didn't understand what was happening. You know, I really. I had very. I was like, this has to work. Like, this has to be the answer. I. I just had aligned myself mentally with this whole life and this whole philosophy and this whole life, so.

B (48:22)

Well, I think too, like, in a way, you were seeing. I mean, you. You did see results. So I think that it kind of made you think, oh, I'm doing things right. Like, I'm following the rules, I'm seeing results. So why would you really think anything differently at that time?

A (48:36)

Yeah. And if anything goes wrong, that also translated to, if anything goes wrong, that's probably my fault. Because these people are right. These people know what's best.

B (48:46)

Right.

A (48:46)

Because they are successful. There are people who have been doing this for years. Yeah, Right. They can't be wrong. You know, and the other thing, the other unique feature about this program is you don't actually work the steps for a long time. You're not allowed to work the steps until you have been abstinent for at least 90 days.

B (49:09)

And what do you mean when you say that? Like, are you just not binging and purging? You're not. Or what is that?

A (49:13)

What is abstinence?

B (49:14)

Yes. Like, as far as the eating disorder.

A (49:16)

Yeah, Abstinence. Ab. Your abstinence? Well, it's up to the sponsor, basically. But basically, it means you've had. The FA deficient version is no flour, no sugar, no unmeasured quantities.

B (49:27)

Okay. So basically just following their eating habits and diet.

A (49:32)

Yes. And then the specifics of that come from your sponsor and their sponsor.

B (49:36)

Okay.

A (49:37)

And so their catchphrase is, like, if you want what I have you will do what I do.

B (49:45)

Yeah.

A (49:46)

Which is kind of intense. And so I was told that, you know, if you just pray enough and. And have. If you're spiritually fit enough, then things will be okay. And I lost all the weight, and I started doing what's called an awol, which is. Stands for a way of life. It's an acronym, and that is how they work the steps actually work the steps in this program. In other 12 step programs, it's like, you get a sponsor and you work the steps, and that's what you do. You go through the 12 steps with your sponsor, and you do the things that way. In fa, it's like you get a sponsor, and then you do what they do. And then if you're ready, if they think you're ready, your sponsor thinks you're ready, then you can start going through the 12 steps.

B (50:36)

Okay, so at this point, you were how many months in?

A (50:39)

6 or 8, I think I was at this point. I. Because I had restarted my abstinence because I binged on chewing gum at one point.

B (50:50)

So that wasn't allowed. No gum. Okay.

A (50:52)

I became addicted to gum. I had quit smoking, right?

B (50:55)

Yeah.

A (50:55)

And I became addicted to gum. And there was one day where I just kept chewing, chewing, chewing, and my sponsor. But yeah. So I was about a year in at this point.

B (51:04)

Okay, so at this point, you're just kind of following their rules with the eating. You're talking to the sponsor.

A (51:09)

Yeah.

B (51:10)

Okay. So then at a year, they decided, we can start doing the steps.

A (51:15)

Yeah.

B (51:15)

Which entailed.

A (51:17)

You go, there's this room. There's.

B (51:20)

Oh, dear.

A (51:21)

You go. You go to this, like, other meeting. It becomes. Oh, that's one of the other things you're. You're required to do at least three meetings a week. That's a lot. Yeah.

B (51:31)

Okay.

A (51:32)

Yeah. And three phone calls a day with people not including the call to your sponsor at like, 5 in the morning or whatever it is. It's usually very early in the morning, first thing in the morning. So that's considered the bare minimum. Three calls a day, three meetings a week. Three. Three meals a day, weighed and measured, like, on a scale, like, not with, like, cups or, you know, like, you.

B (51:59)

Right.

A (52:00)

You weigh it on a digital scale. So anyway, I go to this awol and I notice that I am just having my. The food. The craziest food thoughts. Like, they just start almost immediately. And what I'm. I start talking about this with people, and they're like, oh, yeah, you lost all the weight, and you start doing an awol. And your disease, because it's called a disease, it's called food addiction is considered a disease in this program. You are, you know, your disease is getting louder because you're fighting back, you're doing what you need to do. So just keep going, you know, just keep, keep staying spiritual. You know, keep, stay spiritually fit. Talk about what's going on. Talk about your, where your head is at. So I'm having these food thoughts and they just get louder and louder and louder every day. All day I'm thinking about food. I can't control it. I'm thinking about just crazy things. Like I want a cupcake with ice cream and frosting and your body's craving it. I wanted the most high calorie, calorically dense thing I could possibly and I was just pining for it and I thought that I was doing something wrong. I was like, I have made a mistake. I've. I have not measured my food properly. I have haven't been as honest as I need to be. I haven't been as transparent as I need I to work harder. I need to do, I need to go back to day one. I need to, you know, it's just all these things. I need a new sponsor. I need. And I got one. I need someone who understands what relapse is like. I need someone who understands what food thoughts are like. Like all these just. I need, I need, I need to do something different. Until finally one night I was like, nothing's working at this point. I'm living in Berkeley. I have my own little in law unit that I rent in a retired bell. It's from this retired belly dancer's backyard. That's a whole nother story in Berkeley. And I'm in this, this is important to my, my story too because I'm in this neighborhood which is like super cool. Like there's all these cool little food spots and all these places where I can literally just walk to. And one night I decided to walk to the corner store and I decide to get some candy. And I, I can remember like how my body felt when I did made this decision. My heart was pounding like so, so hard. And it was like I, I was like shaking with a candy bar in my hand. Like it was the craziest thing. And I was like, no, I'm not going to do it. Yes, I'm going to do. I just know I'm not going to do it. And it was like, I was just like wrestling with myself, right? I open up the candy bar. I Take a bite. I fall to my knees. It's like, literally, it was like heroin. Like, my body just, like, fell apart. And I. I ate all of the candy that was in that bag. And then immediately was like, I have to get rid of it. And so I went to the bathroom, and I did what I know to do, right? And then once that was done, I was like, it was on. I ordered a pizza. I ate the whole thing. I went to the bathroom and got rid of it. I ordered some hamburgers and fried. I don't even remember. I ordered a bunch of sandwiches from Subway. I. On and on and on. I binged that entire night. I binged until the sun came up. And then I think I probably called in work, called in the next day and wasn't able to come to work. But I continued to do this for months where I would just be on a rampage. I started smoking again. I was binging and purging upwards 9, 10 times in a night. And I started stealing food. I mean, I was a mess. I was an absolute mess. I didn't have money for this. I was a preschool teacher living in Berkeley. You know what I mean? But so I would get, like, payday advance loans. I mean, I just did whatever I could. At one point, I stole food from the school that I worked at. And then I had to come clean to my boss, to my bosses, and I told them exactly what was going on. I was like, I'm really struggling with my eating disorder, and I'm going to pay you back this money, and I'm going to try to get help. It took months before I actually left the program. I went through a couple of sponsors, and then I was like, I'm just not. I'm not getting anywhere. I probably should not be living alone anymore.

B (56:44)

So what were they saying? Were you honest with the sponsors about the binging and purging?

A (56:48)

Yeah.

B (56:48)

And what were they saying? Like, what did they suggest?

A (56:52)

Oh, that's such a good question. All sorts of things. I'm gonna try to remember some of it. One of one sponsor was like, I've been where you've been. And she had, like, certain, like, suggestions, like, try to eat as many abstinent meals as you can. Try to end the day with an abstinent meal. Go to a meeting. Oh. Another sponsor was like, go to a meeting every day. Go to AA meetings. Just be around recovery as much as you can. I did. I would take all of their suggestions. I would do everything that they asked me to do, and I just wouldn't be Able to stop. And it really felt like I was trying to end myself with food. And at one point, I remember I had this dream where I was, like, sleeping in my bed and I imagined like a. Like a. Or not I dreamt. Not imagined, but I guess imagined too. What are dreams anyway? I dreamt of this giant black, like. Like, hand with, like, claws and, like, talon like claws coming out of the corner of my room and grabbing me and trying to suffocate me while I was in my bed. And that was just like, I woke up and was, like, drenched in sweat. And that was just like, I don't know, an evidence of, like, how intense. Like, how intense I was struggling and how my mental state was just deteriorating at this time. The other part of this is, like, I was going through all of this and nobody else outside of this program, outside of people in the program and outside of, like, my two bosses and maybe people that, like, kind of noticed that I was a little, you know, a little different, but they didn't know what was actually happening.

B (58:43)

Right.

A (58:43)

My family didn't know, like, my closest friends.

B (58:47)

So in this program, did you end up doing the 12 steps later? Okay.

A (58:54)

Because I. I left the program.

B (58:57)

Okay.

A (58:58)

I went back two more times to the same program.

B (59:01)

Okay.

A (59:02)

So I left. I went into outpatient treatment at. Through Kaiser. I couldn't afford most of the treatment that they offered on my preschool teacher's salary. I could only go to the group meetings. So it was very minimal.

B (59:18)

Yeah.

A (59:19)

The ED treatment that I was getting. But they told me they were like, we have seen patients like you who come out of restrictive eating and can't stop binging and purging. And this is what happens, you know, you, You. When you restrict everybody who restricts and every. And everybody that has, like, insulin. Insulin resistance or, you know, struggling with, like, you know, their weight. All of us have histories of dieting and restrictive eating. All of us. There isn't a person. Show me someone that is, like, has a very high bmi, that has not tried to diet at some point.

B (60:03)

Right?

A (60:05)

So what are we actually dealing with here? You know, I'll get to that. But so. So I tried to get help, right? And I was like. And. And it helped a little bit. Like, it slowed down my binges. It slowed down enough. And I had moved out of my little belly dancer. Belly dancer place, and I moved into a house where I had roommates. And I knew that that was good for. For me because I needed to be around people, because that also cut into the amount of time that I could binge and purge because I. You know, and even that and even then, you know, it was. It. It took a while for all of that to. To really slow down. And I was able to slow it down enough to where I was doing it, like, maybe once every two weeks. And I thought at that time that that was really good, which it was.

B (60:55)

Yeah. Compared to what?

A (60:56)

Compared to where I was before, it was better. Right. I remember just feeling like, I don't know how I'm ever gonna stop fully. Like, I couldn't imagine that. I remember a time in my. Which.

B (61:14)

Oh, making you emotional.

A (61:17)

Yeah. Like. Yeah.

B (61:22)

Take your time. I think that happens, you know, when you look back at something, it's. It's kind of wild to be sitting far ahead and to think back, like, damn, it's crazy to think that there was one point that I thought it would be impossible. But, like, now look at me, you know?

A (61:37)

Yeah.

B (61:38)

So kudos to. You should be proud of yourself.

A (61:40)

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so proud of myself. And I'm so, like, grateful. Like, that was hell.

B (61:49)

Yeah, I'm sure.

A (61:50)

Hell. And I really didn't think that what I have today would be possible. I genuinely did. Had no idea.

B (62:00)

But that's also why it's so important for you to be here and talking about it, because there's probably so many people that feel that way, like, they're in the midst of it and they're like, I can't imagine getting out of this.

A (62:10)

Yeah. I know for a fact that there's a better way.

B (62:13)

Yeah.

A (62:14)

I know that for a fact. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm just really grateful. Yeah. My life was so small. So small during that time. And that's another thing. Like, now it's the exact opposite. I never have, like, time alone, really. You know, and then that's like. I'm like, oh, gosh, I'm just so overwhelmed with, like, being a mom and a wife and a blah, blah, blah, family member, friends. I have a huge group of friends that I love and that support me and, like, that I can call at any time, like, literally and be like, this is what's going down to going down for me. I never had that in fa. I heard other people in that program talking about how their FA friends were their friends or their real friends or whatever. I never experienced that. In fact, I remember, like, when I. The times where I was struggling and trying to find a new sponsor, they were like, find somebody who has what you want and ask. Ask them how they got it right. None of those people had what I wanted. To be perfectly honest, none of those people had a life that I was like, oh yeah, I want my life to be like that. I never, I never felt that way.

B (63:26)

It seemed like that place was very external, like in the sense of it was more so what you see from the outside. Oh, I want that. So let me be like that person to get it. But nothing was actually deep, you know, like, how is somebody actually feeling deep down? Do I want to. Do I aspire to be like that person for who they truly are and how they are living their life behind closed doors? Like, I don't think. It doesn't seem like, yeah, you really knew those people for who they were, what they were feeling.

A (63:57)

People in that program that really do believe that they have that. Yeah, you know, I think that there are, and, and maybe they do. Like, maybe there are people in that program who've been abstinent for like 20 plus years.

B (64:09)

Good for them.

A (64:10)

Good for them. You know what I mean? And I think that that is, that was something that kept me searching for that I was like, maybe I'm just doing this wrong. But I think the reality is that like what I needed was something that was more authentic and internal and my value, what, what I value today and my values today are about the things that maybe aren't so visible.

B (64:36)

Well, I think too, it seems like a program like that could easily be kind of surface level and it doesn't seem like these aren't real therapists that are trying to help you deep down to find what is the root cause of this, where is this coming from? Like, they're not trying to, I think, really unravel your life and your past and figure out what is causing you to feel this way.

A (65:03)

Also, there are people in that program that don't believe in therapy.

B (65:06)

Right.

A (65:06)

Because a lot of therapists and most registered dietitians, which by the way, is different from a nutritionist, the training is different. Registered dietitians usually have to follow evidence based practice and nutritionists don't.

B (65:22)

Okay.

A (65:23)

So I just, I just want to throw that out there because some people, sometimes when people are struggling with food, they will go to a nutritionist and the nutritionist will act actually be very much aligned with diet culture and, and not so much using evidence based practice. And I have a lot of experience with that and I'll get to that in just a second. Which basically, like there were people in that program that told me, I was like, I, I think I need to see a therapist. And there are people in that this was the second time around when I basically went in, went back in a second time because my weight was going up and I was scared and I didn't know what else to do and I didn't have other resources. So I went back to fa, started losing weight, Food noise came back and I knew I was about to binge and purge again. And the person that I was asking to sponsor me at that time said, you know, if you decide to go to therapy, I don't think I am the right sponsor for you. I don't think I can sponsor you. So another phrase that you would hear a lot in those rooms was like, you reach your bottom when you stop, stop digging. And it's funny. Like, that's a funny phrase. Because what they meant by that is like, yeah, if you decide to stop relapsing and stop struggling in this program, you will. And now I'm like, yeah, I think that that phrase is correct and that I had to stop digging in terms of I needed to get actual help. Yeah. By this time I was in a relationship with my now husband. This was like, we've been together for 10 years, it'll be 11 years actually next year. And he, he knew that I had struggled with food, but he didn't know the extent of it because I was not forthright initially, did not feel safe being forthright with all of that. But over time I did sort of kind of come clean with him and was like, oh, you know, the only thing that's ever worked for me at this point is fa. So that's how I. And he was like, okay, I'm going to support you, but you know, remember what happened last time? And so the same thing ended up happening. I left again and after that second time decided to go to therapy. I found a therapist and she was actually like trauma based therapist who also did like somatic work where with horses.

B (67:54)

Okay.

A (67:55)

And I did like horse therapy with her, which was like, hugely helpful.

B (68:00)

Say that was probably amazing.

A (68:02)

It was amazing. And I actually, I ended up later on taking horseback riding lessons and learning how to ride and stuff. I got my cow cowboy boots on today. But yeah, I'm big fan of horses. They're. They're hugely helpful, especially for people that have like complex PTSD or have eating disorders. Like, I, I've, I've found it to be really helpful. But so that was kind of like a shift in terms of how I started to think about. I started to think about like my past. Right. And trauma and how it changes the brain. I started thinking about that even in terms of the work that I was doing with children and. And what I would see when kids were, like, super dysregulated, I started. And then also I started becoming more interested in, like, going back to school and, like, getting a degree and. And started to become more interested in psychology. So things started to slowly shift around that period of time. And then eventually I decided, you know, okay, I'm just gonna try out, like, this whole intuitive eating thing, and if it doesn't work, I'll go back to FA one more time. And I did that. I decided to go back to FA one more time.

B (69:17)

I know, three times a charm, right.

A (69:19)

It's like, you know, it's like a. It's like a battered woman. I don't know, like, battered woman syndrome.

B (69:27)

You know, it's one of those things that I think that, like you said, that was kind of the main resource that you had.

A (69:32)

Yeah.

B (69:32)

So it's like. And to some degree, it was working in the sense of if you don't really know what is causing something or where something's rooted from, but you know that you want to look a certain way, you're going to kind of just keep falling back to the same pattern. Because how do you break it if you don't know any different?

A (69:50)

If you don't even know what you're doing in the first place? Like, I mean, I was constantly, like, body checking. Yeah, Constantly, like, thinking you were in.

B (69:58)

A vicious cycle of it.

A (69:59)

Yeah. Thinking about my weight, thinking about my body and. And like, oh, you know, my man won't stay with me if I keep gaining weight. He'd never said that to me. He'd never said anything about my weight. He actually was like, I didn't notice. I just like, you like, like, seriously? Yeah, get. Ladies, take note. That should be the standard, by the way. Anyway, that's true. So I stayed that last stint in faa. I was in the program for two years and abstinent for pretty much that whole time. I had, like, Rebel sponsors that were, like, unconventional, that light, that were, like, okay with me doing therapy. So I had a therapist at this time, and I decided to. I was going to get as healthy as I could to have a baby. And then, you know, before this, my boyfriend and I got. Had gotten married. We had a big wedding. It was great. And then I went back into FA and my body got smaller again, and I was like, okay, I am super healthy. I'm going to have a baby while I'm weighing and measuring my food. And also a vegan So I was not getting very good, you know, nutrition at this time. But really the food noise thing didn't come back in the same way that it had in the past. I think the catalyst for me leaving this very last time was me reading more about intuitive eating, watching more videos about just eating disorders, and kind of noticing some patterns within myself around that time. And also, I think there were two big things that, like, changed the game for me. One was when I was talking to my sponsor at that time and I asked her, when I have my baby, will we be able to share food? Will she. Will I be able to feed her food from my plate? Or if she wants to feed me food, which she still does, my 3 year old will be like, try this. Which is a huge part of raising a child and teaching them and feeding, teaching them about food and feeding and eating. And she told me, no, you cannot eat from your daughter's plate. You cannot have her let your. Let her feed you, and you cannot feed her food from your plate.

B (72:20)

And why?

A (72:21)

Because that would be a break. You're supposed to eat the amounts that you said you would eat, and anything outside of that is a break. You lose your abstinence. Okay, so that happened. And I was just like, yeah, I did exactly what you just did. I was like, okay. And then the other thing was I started to sponsor because I had been abstinent for a while, and there was this person that I was sponsoring that was like obsessed with wanting to be able to be vegan and also eat a very specific kind of way. And I just, in talking to this person, I could hear myself. I was like, this person is really, like, thinking that they have to do things this one way. And I am like that too, you know, And. And they were like, asking me if they could do certain things with their food that were outside of the norm for what I knew. And so I was telling them no. And we would go back and forth, back and forth. And I was like, I can't sponsor you if you. And I was realizing that, like, oh, I was doing what other people had done to me, because that's what you're told to do.

B (73:36)

Yeah.

A (73:37)

And I also had this other sponsor that was really struggling with bulimia and, like, really struggling. And I just really felt like I wasn't helping them. I felt like I may have even been making it worse and that.

B (73:54)

That's a lot of responsibility and pressure on you.

A (73:58)

I. To this day, I hope those people are okay. You know, like, I don't. I don't feel Good about that. Yeah, I don't feel good about. About what, what was happening there. So those, those were sort of like the ultimate. Like me and my husband went on our little baby moon. I was super pregnant and it was super hard to like get what I needed. I was having food aversions. My food became so complex. Like it became so difficult to follow this rigid schedule and way of eating with the food aversions, with the fact that I was pregnant. I wasn't even having cravings, but it was just like I wasn't allowed to have soups. I wasn't allowed to. Which is like have like warming foods which is like, especially after you give birth, is, is. Can be really soothing and helpful for the postpartum period. I couldn't eat that way. Right, right. I couldn't just eat the things that sounded good to me at this time. And after like seven months of that, I was like, this is dumb, dude. Like, you get sick of it. This is so dumb.

B (75:04)

So quick question with the, the. The 12 steps, were they like far fetched rules or were they kind of just like your normal.

A (75:13)

No, the 12 steps are. I mean, I don't want to like get on a soapbox about this, the 12 steps necessarily, but like, basically like.

B (75:23)

Were there other, I guess like crazy rules other than what you mentioned? Like, were there other strict rules that people had to follow by in order to stay in this program or was that kind of just like.

A (75:35)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was doing what other people were doing.

B (75:39)

Okay.

A (75:39)

Yeah. Every, most people in the program that's. This is what they do. People that are abstinent.

B (75:45)

And the goal is to work your way up. To become a sponsor.

A (75:49)

To become a sponsor. To be, to be able to do service, to be able to pay it forward.

B (75:55)

And then you're not even qualified to be doing these things. Basically.

A (76:00)

Yeah, you're not quality.

B (76:01)

It's basically just like time. The amount of time that you've been in this program and following their rules and then you can become one of the sponsors.

A (76:10)

Yeah.

B (76:10)

Right.

A (76:11)

And. And then you have your sponsor and then you. Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of like a. It's like a way of life.

B (76:18)

Yeah. And kind of like a pyramid scheme in a way kind of thing. Like it just trickles down like, because then you each have a high.

A (76:23)

Oh, yeah.

B (76:24)

Okay.

A (76:24)

And right before I left. Left. I. Yeah. I just had this like, none of this is normal kind of moment, you know, like, what is this? And I think that is like, you know. Yeah. It's like that's That's a. That's a moment that, like, everyone who's experienced indoctrination or coercive control or any kind of, like, cult like situation scenario, you can. Everyone has that moment, that aha moment.

B (76:52)

Like the light bulb goes off. Did your therapist guests at the time, did they ever make any comments or say anything?

A (76:58)

She was so badass, the way she. She handled that whole situation with such grace and care. And I think if she had just outwardly said, you in trouble, girl, Right. Like, she. I don't think I would have listened.

B (77:10)

Okay.

A (77:10)

You know what I mean? Because I was so deep in it. I was so indoctrinated.

B (77:13)

Yeah. I mean, you did it for years.

A (77:15)

So what she did was she. She just asked me questions.

B (77:19)

Okay.

A (77:20)

She would be like, does that feel.

B (77:21)

Like, helped you come to the conclusion on your own?

A (77:23)

She's like, does that feel safe? Or sometimes she would say, I would. You know, when I. When I came back from the baby moon, for example, and told her about all of the things that I had been struggling with, she was like. Or even before then, the things that I was struggling with, with the program itself and how crazy it was. And she was like. She was like, yeah, I would struggle with that too. And then I started, like, advocating within the program for, like, more. For like a structure that's more inclusive because I was noticing that a lot of the people that were, like, struggling were people of color. And a lot of the people or people that were more vulnerable had less resources. Yeah, those were the people that I know that were struggling the hardest in that program, myself included. And the, you know, this was around the whole George Floyd thing that was happening. So the program internally was like, well, what are we doing to make these certain populations of people struggle even more than other people in this program? Well, first of all, this is not actually like, you're dealing with people that have eating disorders, and you're dealing with people that come from profound trauma, and you're dealing with people that don't have support for that. And it's sort of a similar thing that happens sometimes in, like, religious circles. Belief is a. Such a. You know, it's. It's such a fascinating thing to. I think that's why I minored in religious studies, because it's like, belief will make you. It will make you do whatever. If you believe something strongly enough, it becomes this powerful force that will make you. And so once you break out of that, it's so scary and destabilizing because.

B (79:09)

I, like, becomes part of your Personality and what you identify with.

A (79:13)

Yeah. And the thing, the thing about it was, like, it's so fringe, you know, like, it's so outside of the norm of what most people do in terms of, like, food and, and even in the program, even in the rooms, people acknowledge that, but there's this sort of air of like, but I'm still, like, better than other people because I'm living a spiritual life and I'm on a spiritual path. So of course, of course it looks different. Right. There's an answer for everything, literally everything. And that's another sign that maybe you're in a cult like scenario. They have an answer for everything. Nobody should have an answer for everything. This is life.

B (79:52)

Right? And there is no one SIIZ fits all.

A (79:55)

No, no. There's no one way to do this. There really isn't. So, yeah, I, I, you know, I, I tried to advocate and eventually left and my therapist at the time, gracefully. She wasn't like, girl, I told you so, you know, or I told you so.

B (80:16)

She was just planting the seeds.

A (80:17)

She just planted the seeds. And she just, like, gently guided me through that. And it was. That was back in California, and we ended up moving to North Carolina. That's. That's where I live now, where I'm going to school. I uprooted my whole family, and we moved to North Carolina. And then when we, when we landed, I ended up going into an outpatient, more rigorous outpatient treatment program for eating, disordered eating. And then I actually learned how to feed myself and learned how to actually address some of the other health issues that have come about as a result of having years of disordered eating in my past. And I have, like, a amazing team of, like, therapists and doctors, and I've worked with different dietitians and all these supportive, amazing people who have helped me through the journey of kind of unraveling all of the programming and all of the, you know, restriction that I did. So it's taken a lot, like, to get out of that and to get out of that. Like, I remember the fear of, like, like, like going to a grocery store and buying regular food and worrying if somebody from the program would see me. You know, it's like, ptsd. Yeah. Yeah.

B (81:35)

Like, you're scary.

A (81:37)

It was really scary. And it was like, oh, my gosh, I can't post anything about my weight gain. Like, you know, I can't talk. You know, like, you know, you're. When you recover from an ed, this is something that's like, little, not. Not really understood very well, by the general populace is like. One of the things is you have to overcome your fear of food. And the fear of food can be really, really sneaky and tricky to, like, unravel. But in that process of, like, sort of desensitizing yourself, your body's probably going to change. It might not. Or it might change drastically, depending on how much restriction you had, depending on your genetics, depending on a lot of factors. If there's trauma, if there's, like, disassociative aspects of your. Of your experience that makes it harder for you to tap in and listen to your interoceptive cues and body cues, all of that, which is all stuff that I have dealt with, you know, and had to work on. And it's all about, like, you know, kind of going inward and being really honest with yourself about what you're experiencing and where your thoughts are at and where your head is at. And. And it's honestly the most exhausting work I have ever done. It's very hard. It's. I. You know, I quit smoking, like, five, six, seven years ago. I don't know, a while ago. Well, before I had my baby and before I got married, too. So I've been married for six years. So, yeah, at least six years. Anyway. That was hard. You know, it takes about two years when you first quit smoking to kind of, like, purge it out of your system, and you're just, like, feeling more normal. And that was nothing, though, compared to healing from an eating disorder. I got really lucky where I, you know, I ended up with treatment that was very inclusive, and they understood that EDs don't come in one size right. And they look. Look very different. And they say something about people on the. The autism scales, like. And I swear this is going to connect when you. When you've met somebody who has asd, it's just that you've met somebody that has asd. It's the same thing with eating disorders. If you've met somebody that has an eating disorder. It's just that you've met somebody that has an eating disorder. They. They really are very common a lot of different ways. And I think that, like, it's helpful for people to understand that when they're looking at their own issues with food. And I hope that people can just give each other more grace.

B (84:18)

Yeah, and something I. I want to include, too, is you said you have a daughter now. I mean, even if you had a son, it. It could go both ways. Yeah, But I think that. And I've mentioned this before on this podcast, the More time that goes on. You know, I think the more understanding we have on so many different things, eating disorders, mental health issues, and all this stuff, and while they're still. And there will always be people that I think brush it under the rug or don't have enough education around it, they don't care to get help. They don't want to get help. They don't even think it might. They might not even think it's a problem. I think that with the more time that goes on, there's more and more people that do get help and that, you know, educate themselves and get that go into therapy and learn so much. And I think that that is the saving grace to the future generations, because now, you know, you have a child and you're able to recognize these things and to teach your child healthy and positive ways to view themselves and to not be so hard on themselves, because that's a whole nother thing. It's like, it's not even just an eating disorder, but we, you know, children. And I feel like it's happening younger and younger because of social media. They're so hard on themselves and how they look and their body image and what they should and shouldn't be. And it can even go as down to their hair.

A (85:42)

Yeah.

B (85:42)

You know, and things like that. So it's like, it's so important, I think, to have a parent who genuinely understands and can. Can pick up on little things and little signs and can also just teach their child, like, it's okay to be you.

A (85:55)

Yeah.

B (85:56)

And you have that now. And I feel like not only are you able to help so many other people, you know, now within your life, but even your child, you can pass that down. Because I, you know, it's so obvious we. I talk about it so much on here, and so do my guests, that you can either break the cycle or you can continue the cycle. And it's very obvious that you broke the cycle. And I think that there was probably a point where you didn't even know that's what you were doing.

A (86:22)

It ends with me. Yeah, it ends with me.

B (86:25)

And it's. It's important because if not, it's just going to be something that keeps cycling down. And even if somebody doesn't have a child who wants to go through life not knowing what's wrong with them or not understanding why or where something comes from.

A (86:39)

Yeah. I feel so honored to be my daughter's mom. You should. Like, she is super rad.

B (86:49)

Yeah. And she's blessed to have a mom, so.

A (86:52)

And I I, Yeah, I, I.

B (86:54)

Because there's a lot of. There's a lot of kids that have.

A (86:56)

Parents that they have no idea.

B (86:58)

Not even just that, but if their parent has an eating disorder and they, you know, a child, if a child sees their parent restricting themselves, you know, that could go one of two ways also. They could turn out that way, or they could be the complete opposite, which isn't healthy either.

A (87:12)

I'm so, so grateful that I got it when I did, because I can't imagine. I mean, my daughter is such a good eater, by the way. Glad to toot my own horn, but beep, beep. She's a, She's a great eater. And getting to share our culture. First of all, food is not. Food is not just fuel, okay? Food is culture. It's enjoyable. It's enjoyment. It's memory, it's community. It's family. Notice when, you know, with any family, this is true. Where do, where does everybody congregate? In the kitchen. And there's nothing wrong with that, you know, And I get to tell, you know, my daughter is multiracial. I get to tell her about her, you know, my family's side of my family's side. And, like, the foods, the cultural foods that I get to pass down to her. And then same thing with my husband, who's half Indian. We get to share in the stories and, and the culture that. The rich culture and legacy that she comes from. And a lot of that can be transmitted through food and preparing food and, And I don't have any weird feelings about it. I don't have to be super weird about it. Like, I don't have to fear the peanut butter that's in the cupboard. I don't have to worry that I'm gonna binge on all of the plethora of snacky foods that we have in our cupboards or in our fridge.

B (88:31)

So how long did it get you? Did you. Did it take you to get to that point of really recovering from your eating disorder?

A (88:39)

I mean, like I said, like, it's. It's a process. It's been a process. It's not been a linear process. It's like I've gone through, you know, it's like, I think right now, currently, gosh, I've been free from, like, binging and purging for a while. Like, I don't know, like, five, six years. And then I've been free from restrictive eating for, I want to say, like, three years or so.

B (89:11)

Okay.

A (89:12)

So, yeah, it's been a minute.

B (89:14)

Have you found that Dieting in any form, I guess, can be toxic for you.

A (89:22)

So what I do now is I don't diet in any form, but what I do now is I think about things to add to my diet. So I, I will say I have. This past year I got diagnosed with ms, which is an inflammatory condition. And a big part of managing Ms. One of the pieces, there's lots of pieces, is, you know, just trying to have a healthy overall healthy lifestyle, not have a lot of alcohol, not have a lot of inflammatory foods. And you can, it can, it can be very. It can be a slippery slope, especially for somebody with a history of disordered eating if they have a health condition where, you know, there's recommendations about how to eat. It can be. I could totally see myself diving into. Back into that. Like, oh, I can't eat this, I can't eat that. Yeah.

B (90:15)

And that's kind of why I asked because I feel like it can be challenging because, you know, if you want to. How do you kind of like, I guess it could be a fine line between making sure you're healthy but not. Not getting back into it.

A (90:26)

So what's been helpful for me is to think about what my body needs and is to think about what I need to add to my food, what I need to, what kinds of foods I need to. I need to add in.

B (90:43)

Okay.

A (90:44)

And. And then I also think about what feels good, you know, and that has been like a process where it's like, you know, it's easy for me to like, oh, I. I didn't feel like eating a carb. So that can be like a trigger for me is like, oh, I didn't feel like eating a carbohydrate. So, ooh, like, I'll get a little kick out of that. And then, and then what do you know, Like a day later I'm just like craving sugar like crazy.

B (91:15)

Yeah. And I'm sure to someday.

A (91:17)

So you have to, you have to be really like, like honest with yourself.

B (91:20)

Yeah. I was gonna say I feel like to some degree you. Which is great. You are probably definitely more self aware of it. Like, if something started kind of feeling like, okay, this could be going down a slippery slope. Let me stop it before it gets any more out of hand and just.

A (91:35)

Take a step back.

B (91:36)

Right.

A (91:37)

And find a space of being more gentle with myself around what I'm eating. But yeah, that. I don't think that, like, you, I don't think that if you're dealing with like weight issues with, if, if having extra weight on your body so this is something that might be controversial to people, but I must say it. If you have extra weight on your body, right. And it's causing you health issues, health problems, and having a little less weight on your body is beneficial to you, I don't think, think if you have a history of disordered eating, I don't think it's off limits to pursue changing that. Okay. With the assistance of doctors and therapists and people that understand like, you know, there's, there is a thing called insulin resistance, for example, and that is a medical thing. A lot of people in the health at every size, movement or sphere are kind of like hesitant to really talk about that and how, talk about. There's, there's, there's, it's a delicate thing. Right. And, and health can be at every size. Yes, absolutely. And, and some people at certain bodies, at a certain body size, they might have health issues. Right. And if that's the case, you have a right to address that with your medical team. Right. That doesn't mean that you should be dieting.

B (93:08)

Right?

A (93:08)

Right. There's a difference in the mentality, I think, and in how you go about making sure that you get like, I.

B (93:16)

Think it's health versus like genuinely wanting to be healthy and eating, like you said, eating for your well being versus eating to look a certain way.

A (93:26)

Exactly. There's a difference in terms of how that's framed in one's mind and there's, and then any kind of restrict. Because restriction is not just like, like I'm not going to eat these things. It's also in how you think about food. You can have a restrictive mindset in your, in your, in your brain and, and that can also cause that will lead to binging. Like for a lot of people, maybe not everybody, but for a lot.

B (93:48)

I think too something I want to throw in there and mention is besides just eating disorders, you know, even if it's not something that's triggered from childhood, I mean this is even just something I've realized with myself. But getting really into fitness can be a whole nother thing that can just either lead to them or I think lead to that kind of psych, that vicious cycle of restricting and binging and because you're, you're trying so hard to look a certain way, especially these people that compete and, or even just not even with that. But even for myself, for example, you know, being somebody that's gone to the gym for so many years now, but you know, I started out really thin and then I wanted to gain this weight and Then you gain weight and then you're like, well, now I feel too big. Then you want to get smaller again, and it's this constant cycle. No, it's not. And I think that that's another thing that even if you might not technically have an eating disorder.

A (94:38)

She's so cute.

B (94:39)

Even if you might not technically, you can push her if she gets annoying.

A (94:42)

Yeah, it's okay. I'm not gonna do it.

B (94:45)

Like, I like it. But yeah. No, even if you're somebody that might not have an eating disorder from a younger age or from a specific trauma, I think it's really easy because of just this, you know, this pressure that we put on ourselves to look a certain way or to, you know, because I. I've heard that term before of just like, look at food as fuel. Even within the fitness industry. It's like. But you're right, it is more than that.

A (95:07)

So much more than that.

B (95:08)

People deserve to find pleasure and happiness in it. Because when I eat a cinnamon roll, I feel happier.

A (95:15)

And then, you know, you may have moments where, oh, I ate a little bit. Bit too, right.

B (95:19)

And then you're, you know, you're kind of feeling the throbbing in your throat, like you're going to be sick. I had way too much sugar. I overdid it.

A (95:24)

That's valid, too. And that's why I love the intuitive eating and health at every size framework. Because I think that, like, with intuitive eating, for example, there's this whole thing about joyful movement. And it took me so long to figure out what that even means. I was like, joyful movement, as in, like, movement that I can kind of stand and will kind of do. No, they mean, like, you feel joyful when you do it.

B (95:47)

Yeah.

A (95:47)

Does it feel good? And I found that, that I, I love to swim. So I, I love it. And like, it's joyful and it's something I will consistently show up for and it's great for your body. And so, like, I don't think I. Yeah, that. That all came from the whole intuitive eating thing. And, and has been really, really helpful for me. And, like, my body is going to do what it's going to do. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't necessarily focus on numbers and I don't, you know, I, I just focus on, like, how I feel. You. I have to eat. We all have to. I have to fuel my body. I have to enjoy that fuel, and I have to make sure that I get enough of the nutrients that my body needs. I need to make sure I get in a lots of fruits and veggies and proteins. It's pretty simple.

B (96:36)

Yeah.

A (96:36)

But not easy for a lot of us.

B (96:38)

Right.

A (96:39)

I think it's.

B (96:39)

It's simple when you look at it from the grand scheme of things, but it's not simple when you think about, you know, everything that. The nitty gritty that goes in. Into it, in within our own minds.

A (96:52)

Yeah.

B (96:52)

How we're judging ourselves.

A (96:53)

Yeah.

B (96:53)

How we feel around food, how we view it. It's like, you know, and even the aftermath, you could eat something even if it's not that unhealthy. But if your mindset around food is so negative you could just. All day it's like, why did I eat that? That was bad. You know what I mean?

A (97:06)

Yeah. It's torture I guess to like kind of wrap up. We're on the last. I. I'm so proud of myself. I covered everything. The last thing I want to say is like, you know, no one has ever in this kind of like ties into what you were just saying, which is no one has ever been able to like abuse themselves into healing. Bottom line, heal. The. The healing journey is not about suffering as much as possible. There are, you know, there might be aspects of. Of. Of healing that might be difficult, but it doesn't. That. That's a finite aspect of really genuinely gets better. It doesn't have to be painful. It shouldn't be the whole time life is too short. So that's something that like I have to remind myself of every day. I have to really give myself grace. Give myself the grace. It's very easy for me to do that for others was very difficult to do it for yourself, especially if you never were taught to do that when you were. When you were young. So.

B (98:12)

Well, you did amazing. You should be proud of yourself, really. And I think it's, you know, not only is it such an important topic as, As a whole, but like I said, I would have never really known that there was. That there could be an eating disorder cult. You know what I mean? Like something where, where people. You know, but it's crazy, but it. I. But when you Wild stuff, it is. But when you think about it, when you hear it, it makes sense because like I said, I mean it's taking people that are vulnerable and doing what you can to kind of like manipulate and you know, I. It's interesting too because at one point you mentioned how these people that were in the program, like they really believed what they were doing and saying. And I think that's a thing. I don't even think half the time these, these people that are a part of these cults or these programs, they realize how damaging it can be to themselves, to others. And it's like I said too, you know, it's a huge weight and responsibility for even when you became a sponsor to kind of take on somebody else. And the craziest thing is, is you weren't even really healed within yourself yet. So it's so scary that there are programs out there like this that aren't helping people. But in a way, it's making it just so much more damaging because you're. You're taking all of this intern toxicity that you have around food and this negative mindset.

A (99:33)

Magnifying.

B (99:33)

Yes.

A (99:34)

Yeah.

B (99:34)

Because you're just. It's almost just taking all of that focus and still just making it about like much worse.

A (99:39)

Yeah.

B (99:40)

And just it's. At the end of the day, it's like, oh, like if you look good, you should feel good, you know, and. But that's not the case at all.

A (99:46)

Well, yeah. And it doesn't get packaged as that. No, it's like a wolf in sheep's clothing, you know, it doesn't. It's not packaged as like this is just a really superficial thing with people that have very small lives that have decided to lean on each other in order to engage in disordered eating. Like, it's not packaged like that. Right?

B (100:05)

No.

A (100:07)

Yeah. And I. Yeah, it's. It is something that is especially scary for people that are more vulnerable, that are under resourced. And none of us are qualified to instruct other people on how to feed themselves and how to live their lives. Lives in general.

B (100:29)

Right. And then even when it came to your, your daughter with the eating and the, you know, that's just.

A (100:36)

That's crazy.

B (100:36)

Right. Because then that goes into a whole different sector of things.

A (100:41)

So, so glad that I am not doing that. I did not take that suggestion.

B (100:47)

But there's probably so many people that, like you said, like, I feel like you kind of always had that sense of self awareness, but a lot of people don't have that. That. And they're just going to trust and believe the professionals.

A (100:59)

Right.

B (100:59)

In quotes, you know, that they think are people that they.

A (101:02)

And I think, you know, the more kind of like disconnection they experience from themselves, the more vulnerable they are to falling into that. Right.

B (101:10)

And the less support they have. You know, I think if you don't.

A (101:13)

Absolutely.

B (101:13)

If you don't have anybody to tell you. And then also if you're if you're somebody that's never really known about therapy or believed in therapy, and then you have these. These sponsors telling you like, oh, you don't need that, or I don't really. I can't sponsor you if you do that, that could be an easy way to decide. Oh, maybe I shouldn't do that then. You know, it just. It's not. It doesn't seem like that program, besides everything you said, that was negative, but it doesn't seem like it was true. Real support. Because support is going to be wanting whatever is best for someone. And I don't think that was the mindset around it at all. It was just. Just the set of rules.

A (101:49)

Right.

B (101:50)

So.

A (101:50)

Right. I think for a lot of people, and this is applicable to a lot of. A lot of spaces, for a lot of people, having an answer, having a rule book, having a guideline feels safer.

B (102:07)

Right.

A (102:07)

You know, because it almost.

B (102:09)

It.

A (102:09)

It.

B (102:10)

You think that it provides a guarantee.

A (102:12)

Yeah. But I definitely thought that, you know, I thought, oh, if I do these things. Things, you know.

B (102:17)

Right. I'll be fine.

A (102:18)

I'll be okay. And then when I wasn't okay, the veil had to be lifted because I really wasn't okay.

B (102:24)

Right.

A (102:24)

And I was like, wait, okay, so why am I not okay if I'm doing this exactly the way. Because I really was very committed and very, you know.

B (102:33)

Yeah, you did it for a while.

A (102:34)

And I had what they would have called what people in the program said was a strong program.

B (102:41)

Right.

A (102:41)

So here I am.

B (102:43)

Yeah. Well, seriously, you should be so proud of yourself. You did incredible. And thank you for wanting to share your story and your journey on my platform. It means a lot to me. And, you know, I know that you mentioned that you hope that I can reach one person, and I promise you it will reach more than that. You know, as you know, I'm sure eating disorders are very common. You know, I've had a few. Few different people on my show talking about theirs, and some of them are healed. Some of them are still very much in the midst of it, and it's not easy. And I feel like the more we talk about all these different things that we struggle with or that we go through, I think it. The more it breaks that stigma and makes people feel like I'm not alone. And being alone is one of the worst feelings. So to feel like you aren't, and to feel like you can relate and hear somebody's story and feel like, okay, like, I went through that, or I know what that feels like as Well, I think it can be very eye opening and it can encourage people to get the support and reach out for help and not be scared to. Right, because I think that people are scared to do that.

A (103:46)

A whole thing to navigate. You know, obviously our mental health system is not great and it's very difficult to navigate that system and figure out how and where to get help and what good help actually looks like in terms of disordered eating and I don't know, perhaps maybe in the, in the comment section. I was gonna say I could, I could post.

B (104:12)

Yes, I was gonna say please, if you have any resources, text them, email them to me. I'll put it right in the description. I always will link like resources that you have or anything that you want in there. For sure.

A (104:22)

Yeah, I don't have like a big social media presence or at all really. I just.

B (104:26)

Well, anything you have, I'd be happy to link it.

A (104:28)

But there are. Yeah, there. I'll try to. Yeah, I'll email you about that. Cuz I. I think that it's important.

B (104:34)

For sure. No, well, thank you. You did amazing. Was there anything else you wanted to include or you think you got it?

A (104:39)

No, I think I. I think I actually. I can't believe it. I.

B (104:42)

You did great.

A (104:42)

I covered everything.

B (104:43)

You did amazing. And it was an hour and 45 minutes.

A (104:47)

Yes, perfect. That's amazing.

B (104:49)

You did really, really good.