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- [00:00]
A
My name is Michelle, and In June of 2014, my dad murdered my mom and my sister. So that one is. And a lot of people have. I would like to start with, like, three most commonly asked questions since it's been 11 years. The first. And I'll answer these, like, throughout. But, like, the first one was, where was I? Because it was my mom and my sister. I was living at home at the time, but I was working. It's just a simple answer. I was not home. So for, like, any true crime people, I don't have any, like, insights, because I was about 30 miles away. Okay. And then I had another major one, which was, was your father abusive? And the answer is no. This was absolutely shocking to anybody's nervous system, I'm sure. Yeah. So he was not. I mean, I. I look at it, and I'm like, you know, he. He grew up in the 60s, so spankings were very common. So, like, I know people would say, oh, that's abusive. But, I mean, I. I look at it and I'm like, well, that's just how he was raised. And I was raised, and it wasn't uncalled for. Like, I. I misbehaved. And.
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B
And that was the.
- [01:21]
A
That was punishment. That was the punishment. That was the consequence. And then. And then the last question was. And I still don't have an answer to this one, is the. I don't know is, do you think. And I'll go. I'll kind of go more into it, but, like, do you think he called me home to finish the job? Would be the quote. I don't have an answer. I don't know. None of us know.
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B
Right.
- [01:48]
A
We're all leaning towards no. But even to this day, he says he doesn't know. So that's kind of the, like, beginning. Yeah.
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B
The rundown. All right, so then I guess start wherever it begins for you guys.
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A
So kind of give some background.
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B
Yes.
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A
My dad was a Navy veteran. He served the Navy for 20 years. He. And one of the stations he moved to Korea in, like, the mid-80s, and that's where he met my mom. My mom is Korean immigrant. They got married. They met. My mom is very. Not. Was very non. Like, romantic. So I don't have, like. But basically my dad just wanted to meet somebody who could show him around Korea. And what people don't know is Seoul is actually army base. But because of what he did in the Navy, he was able to kind of bring that to the army base. And he met my mom's best friend who was Seeing somebody. Okay. And so she introduced my mom to my dad. And my mom, you know, like, my mom's like a big haggler and stuff like that. So she. She kind of, you know, showed him around and things like that. And I. I guess that's how this is history. The rest is history. So they got married in 1985 at, like, the embassy over there in Korea. Funny enough, it was a Valentine's Day. They were Valentine's Day. But my mom goes, it was just the day they had open. Right.
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B
Yeah. That is funny.
- [03:33]
A
And it's so funny because my parent. My. My mom's family met my dad before. My dad's family never met. Didn't meet my mom until after they were married. Got it.
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B
Okay.
- [03:45]
A
Because it was overseas and everything like that. After they were married, they did come to the States, and that's when my mom finally met my dad's side of the family. And it was like one of my dad's leaves. So it was like a short visit. And two years later, they had me. And so are you the oldest? I am the oldest. Now there's just two of us. My sister and I are about 10 years apart. My mom did have trouble conceiving, like, she had trouble conceiving me, which really was a short. Because she was young. 20s. Like, a year and a half is trouble, but, like, you know, that's not too long. And then 10 years later, when we came back to the States, we did live overseas for the first eight years of my life. Okay. And then we came back to the states in 96. My sister was born in 97. And so that's why there's that big age gap. I do have some memories of Korea, but, like, I was so young.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I moved here. I was eight, going on nine. Third grade. Okay. I know. Grade. I was eight going on nine, I believe. And. Yeah, that sounds right. So 96. Yeah. That's really how we ended up into the States. And that's where my dad chose to retire, I think, in 99.
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B
Okay.
- [05:17]
A
And that's why we're also. He was stationed in the Great Lakes Naval Base, which is over there in Illinois. Got it. And that's kind of why we stay where I stayed. There's not really much to say about growing up. Like I said, my dad was very. I mean, I had strict parents, I guess, in terms of parents, but they also weren't strict.
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B
Yeah. And, like, I guess the main point of that, too, is to tell everybody that there really weren't any. I guess you could Say red flags?
- [05:50]
A
No, there's none. We had a normal life. We moved here. My dad asked around, like, of places to, like, for schools because, you know, his knowledge of Great Lakes was a little bit in the 80s between moving to Japan. So he doesn't know how much it's changed in, like, what is it, 10, 15 years?
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B
Yeah.
- [06:16]
A
So he asked people and we found a place, we bought a house. You know, my parents bought a house, had my sister, and their relationship was good.
- [06:24]
B
Your parents?
- [06:24]
A
Yeah, from what you saw? From what I saw. I did learn after the fact. Now, there was no abuse or anything like that, but there was a little bit of, like, a time where my mom was very unhappy.
- [06:40]
B
Okay.
- [06:42]
A
And that was like, I was in my teens. I think my dad was kind of going through a tough time. One of his best friends was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor. And he was. He had. He was going to try a surgery to see if it would save his life or at least extend his lifespan or anything like that. And, you know, my dad, I will say he was very. He was a hermit. I guess that could be a red flag. But, you know, he. When he makes friends, he. He. He's like me. He makes those relationships and he's very loyal to them. And so they're, you know, finding out one of his really good friends was possibly going to die really affected him. And, I mean, he snapped at me. He was snippy with my mom. He was very closed off. I mean, it was a short time. From my memories, it was probably about six months. And so my mom, I guess my mom's best friend did tell me that my mom was contemplating potentially divorcing my dad or, like, starting the separation process, but that never happened. Okay. But overall, I, you know, normal American family. And even then, like, I know I saw some of the news videos when it came out around us, and people were like, well, from the outside, they looked like a normal American family, but you don't know what goes on inside the house. We really were. What you see, what you saw on the outside was the inside, like, went on inside the house. There was no hidden skeletons, which is why it was so shocking. And then the added stress. My sister was 10. She was diagnosed with Charcot Marie tooth, which is a neuromuscular disorder. Okay. And that also took a little bit of a toll on my parents, just mentally, I think all of us, it took it on mentally because we had a lot going on. But, you know, navigating through that was also stressful. My dad, when he retired, he Did a couple of jobs, but eventually became a contractor through the Great Lakes Naval Base. And that's kind of where he stayed from the early 2000s till everything happened. And then really a lot of the things kind of took for. Took face in 2014, I want to say. So I did move out and lived on my own for a little bit. Didn't work out. So I did have to move back in. And the goal was to move there for like a year, kind of reconfigure. Yeah, things. So it was like March of 2014. I moved back home and, you know, everything was fine. I did what I promised to do. I was like, I'm not just going to sit and do nothing. Like, I'll do my own laundry, I'll help with the cooking. You, I'll help with my sister. You know, like, I'll do what I can. I was 2014, so 25 at the time. And I just remembered, you know, like, I was. That I wanted to do what I could to help out my parents, because that's a huge help in your mid-20s, having to move back in. And then somewhere, I want to say, within the month of me moving back in, my dad got a promotion at work. His boss retired and my dad was kind of like next in line if he wanted the position or they were going to do an outside hire. And my dad being in his mid or earlyish 50s, he's like, yeah, I don't want to work under somebody else that's younger than me that thinks I can do better. So he took the position. But with that position was a lot more responsibility, a lot more on call, a lot more longer hours and things like that. And when you're in your 50s, you're slowing. You should be slowing down, not picking up. And then. Yeah. So, I mean, you could see he was stressed and everything like that. But we were trying to, you know, it was still early. We're like, okay, we're trying to figure it out. My mom worked overnight for Target. You know, I was at home. So I was like, I can pick up whatever slack is needed. But I also worked too, so. And I didn't have control. Control over my hours. I didn't have a steady schedule. I worked for a retailer as well. So I mean, but we, I, you know, we did what we could to help. One positive that did happen during that time is I did get engaged, my husband. To my husband. And wow.
- [11:48]
B
So he was around for all of this.
- [11:49]
A
He was around for all of this. That'll be a very important thing. To kind of remember as I kind of go on.
- [11:55]
B
Okay.
- [11:56]
A
But he was. He knew my. He knew my family. We started dating in 2012. And so May. May of 2014, he proposed. It was exciting. He. And I'll tell you, like, I had such a good relationship with my father. He did go to my dad and ask for my dad's blessing. He even said. He goes, it wouldn't have stopped me if he said no, but I just felt respect. Right. Out of respect? Yeah, out of respect. He was like, I'll. I'. You know, he. He even had the ring. He showed my dad the ring. So the weekend before we were going on our trip, my dad met with him and I was like, oh, so that's why he gave me an extra long hug. He's like, you have the best time. And, like, gave me like, this big hug. So he knew it was coming and it was happening that weekend. Yeah. So, yeah, I came home from my little trip and I was engaged. You know, everything seemed normal. But about three days after I went home, I came home from work. I had an earlier shift that day, and my dad was home. And he usually didn't come home till probably about like, 5:30 with this new position. And he was home. He was sitting on the couch. I was like, hey, everything okay? Because usually if I work the early shift, I beat you home. And he goes, I quit my job. He goes, I couldn't take it anymore. I quit. Gave him a hug. My mom, you know, was like, we'll figure it out. And things like that. My dad took like a day or two to kind of like settle in that he quit because that was a big deal. You know, my dad being of the older generation, like, you worked. You worked until you retired. You either need. You work until you're fired or you retire, you know, or you have to have a backup. He had no backup. And I think that's when, like, the spiraling started was he has. So my sister at that time was 17, and by that point she was fully wheelchair bound. So he's like, I have a child who has medical needs now. She was only physically. She was only physically disabled. She wasn't. You know, there was nothing. She was planning on going to college. She. She kind of. She had her plan and everything. She was a regular teenager. She just got around in a scooter. That's really all my sister. That's. That's the only difference of her. Got it. But, you know, he goes, I don't know if, like, I was a factor at that time. Cause I not planned on asking my parents to pay for anything. My husband and I were gonna figure out how to pay for our wedding. Cause my sister was college bound and I knew that was a big deal. But I think like I'm engaged, there's that expense. My sister who's got a physical disability, there's that. And you know, his wife who does work and she's fine. Like she's overall healthy. Nothing wrong. But you know, she doesn't. She worked at Target. She. It's not like she was making. Yeah. Bank or anything like that. And so he started putting out applications to other jobs, but I think he wasn't getting phone calls right. As soon as he thought he should. And so like things spiraled the morning of. So I still kind of remember that morning. It was June. It was a Sunday. June 8, 2014. Woke up. I had to work that day. But you know, I was gonna go to church with my family or my mom and my sister. My dad didn't go with us. And I do remember the only weird thing is my dad was asking me about money. Like how much do you make? Are you able to pay your own like bills? And I think he was. I don't know if he was trying to see if like I could financially help the house or like what. But like he. I remember that question was weird. But I didn't think much of it because I mean he did just quit his job. So maybe, you know, I have no idea. My mom, sister and I all went to church as usual. And after church I went off to work and they went home. So I briefly talked to my sister, like via text. She had, she had cracked her phone screen and she was like, mom's not gonna replace it. And I was like, let me see if I can find somebody who has. It was Sprint at the time. Who has a Sprint enabled phone that can get you through until we can either get your screen fixed or whatever. And I remember sending her a text. I said, hey, I have a friend. It's not an iPhone, it's not a touchscreen, but it's one of those like little. Yeah, the Sidekick type phones. And she didn't respond, but I was like, oh, maybe she's playing her video games or something like that. So she'll respond when she does. While I was at work, I was at work probably about an hour and a half by that point is when I got a text from my dad. Usually what happens is the first time when he needs something, he'll like send like a jumble of Letters. And I was like, hey, what's up? He goes, can you talk? Can you call? Can you call me? I said, yeah, give me five minutes. So I was like. I was like a shift manager at my job, so I let my cashier know. I was like, hey, I have to go take this phone call. I will be back. And I went and I called and I said, hey, what's up? And he goes, you need to come home now. Bye. What's wrong? What do you need? You need to come home now. Okay, well, I have to get things figured out, but, like, give me. Can. Can you give me, like, 30. 30 minutes, 45 minutes to, like, get things settled here. Because manager on duty. I had keys. Now, luckily, my cashier was also a shift manager, so really I just needed to find. He could just take over for me and I. We just need to find a cashier. It was like the longest 30 minutes of phone calls I had to make. My store manager couldn't come because he had plans that night. I was like, well, okay, if so and so and so and so can come, can you, like, approve overtime? Because I have to go. And he's like, yeah, if. If they go overtime, we'll cover their overtime. That's not a problem. I was like, okay. So trying to figure out who to call. We did eventually find someone, but it took me a while. While I'm panicking, I'm texting my fiance. And I was like, hey, I know you're with your best friend. It's his birthday get together. Is there any way you can get to my house? I'm having trouble getting my shift covered. Is there any way you can get there? He's like, yeah, I'm not close to my car, but I can get to my car and I'll be there in like 40 minutes. Okay, text my dad back. I was like, hey, can. Can my fiance come to the house? And this is me assuming, like, maybe something happened with my mom.
- [19:48]
B
Okay, so you. Your gut feeling was something was wrong, but you didn't know what?
- [19:54]
A
No. Okay. I didn't know what. I didn't know if it was like my dad was having another heart issue and maybe he. My mom was driving, so she. And she was terrible at texting. Okay, so. But something was wrong, and they didn't want to pack up my sister to, like, get this figured out. And she's 17 and she's pretty good. If someone could be there within an hour, that would be fine. So he's like, yeah, yeah, the door will be unlocked.
- [20:19]
B
I don't know about you.
- [20:21]
A
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- [20:50]
B
But oftentimes life just feels like I am constantly hustling. It feels like even when I complete things on my to do list, there's just more waiting for me to get done. And as much as I love to stay busy, it can be very stressful in my body and literally feels like it is draining me. And come to find out my body is actually literally being drained of magnesium, which is a mineral that is crucial for your energy, your focus and even your sleep. So if you feel like you've been lacking in any of those categories, maybe your stress levels are high and your magnesium is low. This is actually called the stress magnesium deficiency cycle. So basically your stress goes up, your magnesium goes down, you feel like you don't really have any productivity, you're not sleeping well, your focus just isn't there, your energy is drained and then ultimately the cycle continues to repeat. So obviously the next question is, how do we break this cycle? And for me it has been Magnesium Breakthrough by Bioptimizers. It is the only supplement that has all seven forms of magnesium that your body needs. And in turn, it helps calm your nervous system, boost your energy. And my favorite of all, it supports better sleep. There is nothing worse than not getting a full night's sleep. And the best part is Bioptimizers is totally risk free. They give you a 365 day money back guarantee. So if it doesn't work for you, no harm done. And if it does, then you've just broken the stress magnesium deficiency cycle. For an exclusive offer, go to bioptimizers.com insane and and use promo code Insane during checkout to save 15%. That is code insane@bioptimizers.com insane. I feel like something that I always mention to you guys is how important balance is to me. And sometimes as I'm sure you guys can relate and know when stress piles up, it just feels like everything is off. Your sleep is off, your focus is off, your energy just isn't there and you don't feel like you are productive overall, like you want to be. So I wanted to share my newest secret with you guys which is the Bestseller Bundle by Cured Nutrition which has been giving me support both day and night. You may be wondering how they are supporting me both day and night. That being said, during the day I am always reaching for their Serenity gummies. My favorite flavor which tastes so good is the Passion Fruit and Clementine. They are packed with amazing ingredients which I'm sure you guys have heard of some of these like Ashwagandha and CBD and these gummies genuinely allow me to show up the way that I want to show up and they keep me feeling calm and balanced and then I don't have to lean on things like like sugar or energy drinks to keep me where I want to be and just feel leveled out and perfect and amazing during my days. And then at night time I am winding down with the CBN nightcaps which combines CBD and cbn which allows your body to calm down, wind down. It allows you to get to sleep faster, easier and actually stay asleep and then wake up refreshed. So if you are somebody that is looking for more peace during the day and a deeper rest at night, then I personally cannot recommend the Bestseller Bundle bundle from Cured Nutrition Enough. It is absolutely amazing and it has been the perfect daytime nighttime combination for me. The Bestseller Bundle is already discounted 10 off plus the code stacks an additional 20 off. So you can stack my 20 off code insane on the 10 off bestseller bundle just go to curednutrition.com insane and use my code Insane to save a total of 30 off the bestseller bundle. Okay, so I just moved into a new house and if any of you have moved before then I am sure you can relate to all the new fumes, the smells, whether it's new paint, new furniture, chemical fumes. If you're moving into an older house, maybe it's some dusty air vents. Overall, we just don't know what we're breathing in. And that's why I decided to get Jasper. And let me just tell you, I am literally obsessed. And this is not just some cute air purifier that I got for my house. This is a medical grade air scrubber. Which means it is not just filtering the air, it is actually scrubbing it clean. So anything like smoke, molds, clean spores, VOCs, chemical fumes, all gone. It is scrubbing it clean and now we can breathe some fresh air. And as you guys have seen and I talk about them literally all the time, I have many animals in my home so it actually makes Me feel a lot more comfortable and safer knowing that the air I'm breathing in is clean and safe for not only me, but also my amazing fur babies. So that being said, if you want to try Jasper, they actually gave me a code for 300 off. All you have to do is use code insane at JAS. That is insane. I n S A N E at Jasper. J A s p r.co for 300 off. And I promise you, you will not regret it. Your air will be scrubbed clean, fresh filtered, and you will feel a lot more safer and comfortable in your environment too. And now back to the episode that.
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A
I mean, I don't know how he was texting it, but that's. He said, yes, that's fine. I said, okay, yeah, the door should be unlocked. Just get there. I should be wrapping up in about 15, 20 minutes and I will head out because I was also 30 miles away. So in Chicagoland area, 30 miles is like. It's like an almost an hour drive, no matter the time of day. So. So I get in my car and I just remember I started driving, said, okay. I told my fiance. I'm like, I'm in the car, I'm driving. And he goes, okay, yeah, me too. I'll probably beat you there, but I'll let you know. I don't know why traffic was so bad on a Sunday, but it was bad for me trying to get there. All of a sudden, I think my dad panicked in the time frame of he thought my dad. And apparently he had called somewhere in that time frame. He decided to call 911. He told them what he did, and he said, and I plan on. I plan on killing myself. So of course a cop got there, and my dad's sitting in our basement and he had slit his wrists. And the bodies were downstairs as well in the basement. And so that's when kind of my phone started chaotically blowing up. My fiance did get there way before I did. I said, traffic is worse than I thought, but I'm. I'm at least 20 minutes out at that point. He's like, yeah, just get here. Don't worry, Just get here. He didn't. He did get to the scene before I did. There was. By the time he got there, there was already like a crowd. The crime scene tape was up and around my house. And he said he must have missed my dad by about 10 minutes being escorted out in cuffs. But he's like, just get here. And I said, okay, what's going on? I was like, is everything good? He's like, no, just get here. That's okay. Just get here. Because I'm behind the wheel of a car.
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B
Yeah, right.
- [28:22]
A
So he's trying not to panic me. Then I have two neighbors that had my number, and they're like, where are you? Said, I'm on my way home. What's going on? And they're like, you just need to get here. I said, I'm still 20 minutes away. I can't get here any. I can't make the road closer. I'm still 20 minutes away. And they're like, okay, well, you need to get here now. I said, I am on my way. So I'm. I'm calling. I'm. I shouldn't be doing this. But, like, I'm so panicked. So I call him back on speakerphone, and I'm like, what's going on? My neighbors are blowing up my phone. He goes, you just get here. Just get here. That's all you need to know. I said, no, you gotta tell me. He's like, no, you. You just get here. So he knew that I knew something was wrong. So it was in the drive home. That's when I. Something wasn't right. I just didn't know what, because no one's telling me anything. They just get home. One big important part of this is I never got home. My fiance did flag down a police officer, any police officer. He got to the front where they kind of have it roped off. He flagged them down. He said, hey, that's my fiance's house. She's on her way here. I am panicked. What can I tell her when she gets here? Officer goes. He goes, hold on, let me. Let me see what to do. So he goes, finds some. Must have been, like, a supervisor or somebody and comes back. He goes, your fiance's on our way. Okay, if you can call her, reroute her to the local police station. Okay? That's it. He goes, yeah, just reroute her to the local police station. Okay. So he called me back, and he goes, how close are you? And I said, well, I'm still in this area. I was probably 10 minutes away. So I was close to the house. It was, like, in between the house and where the police station would be. And he goes, I just talked to somebody. You need to go to the police station. Why? What's going on? I'll meet you there. I'm gonna get in my car right now, and I will meet you there. Just get there. So I rerouted myself. I was like, okay, well, you know, he was There. So he. I'll. So I think that's when the, like, panic was setting in, was like. But I. I didn't know what. I still didn't know what. We. We met there. I got there probably five or 10, five minutes before he did. I said, what did you see? He goes, he didn't want to break the news to me. He's so sweet. He didn't want to break it to me. And he goes, I don't know. We'll just wait. So we go down because it's after hours, it's in the evening, and we go to the window. And I was like, hi. I was instructed. And he actually took over. He goes, hi. We were instructed to come here from somebody who was at the. The house. And they're like, okay. They called over and they put us in separate rooms. I was like, what's going on? Why are separate rooms? And I was like, I don't know what I can do. I mean, I was able to kind of get out because I had to use the bathroom. You know, that's. And everything. But we were in separate rooms and trying to figure it out. My neighbor texted me, and she goes, where are you? I said, well, I was instructed to go to the police station, but I've been sitting here, like, half an hour. I don't know what's going on. I love this neighbor. She's so nice. I have nothing negative to say about her. So she goes, hold on, let me. Let me figure something out. So she. She's this, like, African American, Southern from Alabama, debutante. And she. She goes, she what? She told me. She goes. I go, excuse me, young man. And so she found, like, a police officer with a clipboard. And she goes, the young lady who lives at this house was sent to go to the police station. She has been there 30 minutes. No one has told her what's going on. Someone needs to get there because this is not okay. So they got somebody down. And within five minutes, two guys apparently got in their car and started heading over. And she goes. She goes, I saw some gentlemen get in their car. They should be heading your way. And I was like, oh, thank you. What's going on? She goes, I wasn't. Just. They'll. They'll let you know everything. Like, why is nobody. Right. Why is no one telling me anything? Why is nobody telling me? Like, I'm panicking. I'm in this, like, room at the police station that has, like, a mirror, so all I have to do is look at myself. I did have my phone so, like, I knew I wasn't in trouble.
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B
Yeah.
- [33:45]
A
And I'm like, where am I? What am I supposed to do? And that's when. So I told my fiance. I said, and we're in separate rooms. So I'm like, are we allowed to sit together? They wanted to keep us separate because. And I think he wanted to stay separate because he didn't want to tell me. So, like, no one wanted to tell me anything until, like, an official person came. So the detectives. The two detectives came, and they finally showed up, and probably like, 10 minutes later, and one guy came down, and I said. I stood up, and I was like, hi, sir. You know, can you tell me what's going on? He goes, first, I have a couple of questions. And he started asking questions like, was your father abusive? Can you tell me? Was your father acting differently? And I said, what's going on? Why are you asking these questions? He goes, I'm almost done, and I'll let you know. I think my fiance was getting similar questions. Is, you know, was her father abusive? Was he this? Was he that? Do you know? Did you see him today? I said, well, yeah, I live at that house. I saw him. I said, he asked a weird question. He was. He's been kind. And I gave the backstory about how he quit his job. And I think I forgot to add, he was going to the hospital. He thought were hard, like, either. Like he was having a heart attack, but he was having panic attacks. I said, I know for the past probably week, he's been at the hospital three times with cardiac issues. At least that's what they were telling us. And he goes, okay. So he wrote down some of the notes. And then he finally goes, still, like, it's like a movie in my brain. And he goes, I'm so sorry. Your mom and sister are dead, and we have your father in custody. We have every reason to believe he did this. All I remember was screaming, what do you do? My husband. My fiance at the time, but my husband was in the next room, and he was just about to be told when he heard me scream. And he said that his detective just goes, her mom and sister are dead. Her dad is in custody. He goes, okay, can I go with my fiance now? Because do you hear that? The rest of that night is a blur. I have. I remember having to write a statement of what I can recollect. And then they let me leave my car because my. No one was gonna let me drive after finding that note, I. In my house was a crime scene. So I Can't go home. So my fiance was like, you're coming home with me. Hopefully my mom is asleep. And because we were, you know, we just got engaged, so we were gonna look into moving in together, but so we didn't have a house together. He was at his house, I was at mine. He's like, hopefully my mom is asleep, and we'll just. We'll worry about it a lot in the morning. I was like, I gotta tell people I can't wait a day because this is gonna get released in 24 hours. I can't wait. I mean, things were already getting released. They're like, oh, hey, you know, ABC Chicago was like, hey, there is crime activity at, like, the. This address. Like, my. Not my exact address, but like, this block right here. And I was like, oh, no. So it's already getting released. So I remember the first person I called was my grandmother. So I do have to say my dad is one of seven. My mom, most of her family is overseas. But I was like, okay, I got to start with the first person I can. My grandma. Because I can't make seven phone. I can't make that many phone calls. It's one of seven, plus three cousins, plus an uncle. So I just. I couldn't told my grandma. I still feel so bad to this day that I had to break. But I was like, you know what? Let's tell her first. So I remember calling her and I was like, she's like, why are you calling this late? What's wrong? And I was like, I don't know how to tell you this. She's like, michelle, just tell me. Just tell me. I said, my mom and sister are dead, and dad did it. I remember telling her that. And I was like, I don't know how to tell everybody. It's just been such a long night. And she goes, I got the family. You need to call your mom's sister and let her know, because I don't have her phone number. And you need to call your sister's best friend, because she should find out from you, not from the news. So, you know, get in my. Get in my fiance's car. As we're driving, I'm making these phone calls. And he's like, this is the worst. He told me. He goes, I hated hearing you make those phone calls. I hated it. But he goes, I know you had to do it. And that's kind of like. As I was making those phone calls and saying it to those people, everybody. It's kind of like the moment I knew My life was different.
- [39:30]
B
Yeah. It made it more real.
- [39:31]
A
It was very. Like, saying it to the. Hearing it from the police was real, but, like, saying it myself. Yeah. To them was like, this is actually happening. So I did. I had to call her best friend. Didn't tell her what happened exactly. I just said that my sister is dead. I said, I'm not ready to say what happened yet because it's. I just found out. And she's like, but I will call her tomorrow and give her a little more details. Called my mom's sister. There's a little bit of a language barrier there. She does speak English, but not very well. So she's like. So I had to, like, repeat myself to her, like, five times. I was in, like, my. My fiance's driveway when he went in. He goes, let me make sure my mom's not awake. He goes, she has to work early tomorrow, so hopefully she's not. So he goes in and she is awake, and she wasn't expecting him because he was supposed to be out late with his best friend. She's like, what's going on? He's like, crap, I have to tell her. So he sat down. And so here she is freaking out. She's like, what's going on? Is it Michelle? Like, are you. Did you. Are you not engaged anymore? Like, her brain actually went to, like, we broke off the engagement, and he told her what happened, and she's like, because my family is scattered all over. She was a huge support, you know? So she's like, it wasn't even a question. She goes, you don't have to go back to your house once it's open again. You. You can stay here as long as you need. I'm not even. You don't have to find a apartment right away. Nothing. You can just stay here. And. Yeah, that's how. What led up to that night. Yeah. So that was crazy. But, like, a lot of the things people don't realize when you go through that because, you know, you read. I've watched all those, like, True Crime and, like, you watch, like, you know, the podcast and stuff, and they talk about, like, what led up to that night and maybe a blip. So much happened after the fact, you know, first of all, I had to plan a funeral, double funeral, because it's my dad. It almost felt like my dad's side of the family weren't going to make me choose, but, like, my mom's sister was like. It's almost like it was my. My Korean side, the church, my mom's Sister, my mom's best friend. And then there was my dad's side. And, like, I was trying to split my time with trying to take care of them and everything and plan a funeral, double funeral, and all of this. And in that, I really didn't get a chance. Like, I got grieved that night. And then I had to go into, all right, what do I need to do? Mode. And on top of that, my phone would not stop blowing up.
- [43:05]
B
And I have a quick question. When. How long after this happened did you speak to your dad?
- [43:13]
A
It took me. I want to say it took me to actually, like, now. I never. I didn't see him in person for about a year.
- [43:25]
B
Okay.
- [43:28]
A
But I sent him a letter. I'm trying to think. I want to say it was a couple months.
- [43:33]
B
Okay. And did you ever get an answer as to why?
- [43:37]
A
No. I've had to work in theory with therapy on that one. And I've kind of come to the decision that I don't think I want. I think I know why, but I don't. It's not going to change anything to know why. He says he doesn't really remember that day.
- [43:55]
B
Did they do a psych evaluation on him? And did it come. What did it come back as?
- [44:02]
A
That he had. I can't remember what kind of episode, but some kind of psychotic episode, and that he has anxiety and mass. He was going through, like, part of that anxiety. He was having a depressive episode. At least that's what it came across. That's from what I was able to read. But, yeah, he. He does. He says he doesn't remember what happened or why. What made him do that?
- [44:31]
B
Does he seem. Or did he seem remorseful?
- [44:36]
A
Yes, I would say overall, at first he did. But three years later, he did try to do a post conviction. So with the court stuff, that one, actually, in terms of court and everything, he. So everything happened June 8th. So it was beginning of June. And then sometime in the next few weeks, he officially, like, put in his plea of not guilty, but he was, of course, not going to get out. Yeah, it was a $5 million bail. So no one has 10%. The house isn't even worth that much. Not that anybody would have done that. So he stayed in through the whole process. And then beginning of February of 2015, he officially took the plea of guilty but mentally ill. I did do a victim impact statement. I couldn't read it, though. I just couldn't. So the assistant district attorney that was on that case read it for me. My dad did have A statement. But he was. Had to like he said if he couldn't turn to face me, then he would just get that sent to me. I did have a overall, like working relationship with both the ADA and the defense attorney because I was in like that weird position of it was my mom and my sister, so the prosecution. But I also like to know what's going on. So I talked to the defense attorney as well and he gave me a note from my dad. Basically it apologized for what he did to us and our family. He knows he can never. It's. It's irrep, you know.
- [46:34]
B
Yeah.
- [46:35]
A
He can't take it back. And he says he takes full responsibility for his actions. However, three years later. So in the state of Illinois, as long as you do it three before the. Three years after the act. So you have 30 days to appeal your decision. He got past the 30 days. Then after that it's called a post conviction petition. And three years. So that would have been February, early February 2018. He filed for a post conviction petition. And that was to basically go back and try and get retried. And that was lengthy because of COVID And I mean, that opened up a whole slew of emotions right there because we were also going through. We just at that point, a month before, lost our first child. And so I was already going through it mentally because how do you do that? And then I got all of a sudden one day, one evening, got a phone call from the victim advocate. And that's who I kind of worked through the most during the initial court process. And she called me with the ADA that was taking the case because the original one, he left and went to private practice. So there was a new ada, but the original one, the original lawyer, he was like, I'll. I'll give you all the information I can and help you out. Because he goes, I got to know her very well, so whatever you need, let me know. And so yeah, I got the call that my dad had filed for a post conviction petition. And so. And I would like. I like the. That this particular ADA as well, he was very straightforward with me. He was like, this is going to be lengthy because there are three phases of the post conviction. The first, you kind of meet and you know, of course I'm going to fight. Like this shouldn't be happening, like in a. The second one is the decision to go to like the third part, which is bringing witnesses, not me, but like people that worked with my dad around the time. So the two psychologists, the defense attorneys that were in Charge of his case, the social worker, my father, himself. And with that third process, it was to decide whether they would overturn his plea and go Back to trial August 2023. So that the initial. The initial one. So he filed February 6th, 5th or 6th of 2018. And we didn't get an answer till August of 2023. The judge did decide, oh, no, 20. December of 2022, we got the decision through the county courthouse and she decided not to overturn it. But of course you can appeal and then you can appeal 30 days. So he did go through the appellate court. And then August of 2023, the appellate court made their decision to also agree with the district, the county. So, yeah, it was like 9.9ish years of dealing with that.
- [50:49]
B
And I want to mention too, you know, obviously the hardest part is that you lost your mom and your sister. You know, two innocent people. But you also lost your dad.
- [51:01]
A
I did, yeah. I said that in my victim impact statement. I basically like had a paragraph for each. You know, I was like, I lost my sister. I lost this person who was just starting her. Like you would think our age gap wouldn't have like caused sibling fights, but we fought like regular siblings. About the time she turned like 14 and a half, 15, it was like our relationship turned like she started maturing. And I was also maturing because I went from like my early 20s where I was very much very self. Like, I just was pretty selfish and I thought about my. Myself and my wants. And you got my sister who has the physical disability and she's stubborn and everything. And somewhere like around 15 is like when our relationship really changed from like just sisters to where we kind of started forming a friendship. Did we still fight? Yes, absolutely. But I said that I was like, you know, I didn't just lose a sister, I lost a friend because. And I lost. She was just. She just finished her junior year and said we don't get to see who this amazing person would become. Like, she is forever 17.
- [52:32]
B
Yeah.
- [52:33]
A
I actually saw on Facebook would have been her 10 year high school reunion. I'm like, I, I won't lie. And so to not sound creepy, one of her best friend and I still follow each other and I've kind of like followed up on a couple of the kids because. Cause I watched them grow up.
- [52:50]
B
Yeah.
- [52:50]
A
And I'm just like, it's, it's. I'm so happy to see them grow up and live their lives. But it also breaks my heart because, you know, like, what would she be doing?
- [53:01]
B
Yeah.
- [53:02]
A
And like One of the girls, when my sister was in seventh grade and she had her like friend group and one of the girls was always in like whenever I chaperoned, it was in the group that I chaperoned a field trip with and she's married and expecting her first. And I was like, you got one of the kids in our neighborhood. He's getting, he's either getting, I think he's getting married this fall. He's, he's in my sister, he's my sister's age and, and then his sister who's a couple years younger, she's just doing great things out in California. And it's just, it's so sad to like think about because I'm like, what would she be doing? And I even said I lost my mom. And I didn't realize how like impactful losing my mom would be until I got pregnant. The first time I lost my, my, my oldest, I was 22 weeks. And I remember like turning to my husband and I said like, I wish my mom were here because like, who do you want when you, when you're sick and you don't feel good, who do you want? You want your mom? Even now, my sister, my daughter, my, the. We got pregnant pretty quickly after that. My current daughter, like anytime she's sick, I, my mother in law is fantastic. I can't again say anything terrible about her. But like, like when she's, you know, when she's really sick, I don't have my mom to turn to. Right? And so like was it a couple months ago she had this random allergic reaction. Like her face, she luckily didn't swell shut. I would have immediately taken her to the er, but her face was puffy and I'm like, I would have, you know, called my mother in law. But then I'm like, I really wish I had my mom. So. And you feel guilty about that because I'm like, I have this support but like I want mine. And so you feel that even watching my husband's sister and his stepsister both had their own moms. By the way, if, if you two are watching this, your moms did nothing wrong. Just want to put that out there. But like, so we were living with my mother in law at the time when my sister in law had her what had her son. And I was watching, you know, his mom drop everything for, for her daughter and like see how much and it just was breaking my heart and I didn't realize how jealous I would be. Like I was jealous. Similarly, my husband's stepsister recently just had her son and you know, he came about six weeks early and everything. And so his stepmom, you know, you know, she was telling me, she's like, oh, I was doing this. And you know, because she's got so much anxiety with a lot of, you know, especially with him coming early. And so like, you know, three years later, like that same jealous monster was coming and I was like, God, I wish my mom were here. So I didn't realize like how much I was going to miss out on, you know, knew that not having my mom there on my wedding day and having kids was hard, but it's like you didn't realize until then. And then I also lost my dad. Like I was, I said it in my victim impact statement, but I'm a self proclaimed daddy's little girl. He was, I mean my husband went to my dad for his blessing. When I had my first major heartbreak when my ex, my high school sweetheart ended our relationship, my dad was the one I turned to. It was hard. And so not having him walk me down the aisle. I didn't get a father daughter dance. I didn't get any of that. And it's been really difficult. Like, and you sit there and I'm like, I can mentally go, yes, I'm happy for all of you that, that get that.
- [57:34]
B
Yeah.
- [57:35]
A
But you know, there's that jealousy that's always there no matter what when you watch it. And so it's hard. And I did, I lost all three of them. And, and like a side note, I also lost our house. Like that's the house. Like so again, my dad was in the military. I moved around every two to three years now we were overseas, but I moved around. That was the house that was like the permanent home. Yeah, and I lost that too because I wasn't gonna move back in there and just go about my regular day. I ended up selling it because again, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna live there. I can't. So that was really, really difficult as well. And yeah, just kind of going through all of that and then yeah, I, you know, I don't have a lot to say about that. I did, you know, don't go to therapy right now because I see, you know, but I, it's always there when I feel like I need to go back. But I worked on a lot of stuff in therapy. One was, you know, the first was just kind of going through the grief and she was so great. I loved this. This therapist can't say anything negative about her either. But she helped me to realize, you know, everyone talks about like the five stages of grief to acceptance, but I'm just like, she goes, in a traumatic situation, it's not like that. It's not black and white. Yeah. She goes, you can kind of accept what happened but still get angry. So there were times when like I felt like a lot of stuff was falling on me and my mother in law, she had to do something with my sister in law and like I don't have a ton of people to turn to. At least in my head I feel like I don't because I feel like I always feel like I'm a burden, which I know I'm not. Just, you know, you feel that way.
- [59:47]
B
Yeah.
- [59:48]
A
And so when you don't have that person to turn to your mom. I got mad at my dad again. I'm like, if he didn't do this, I would have my support. I would have this. And like I get really frustrated. So I think for example, my husband, he had a new job with a new schedule and we had to figure something, stuff out. And I think my husband's mom was not able to take time off. I'm like, I don't have my mom. Like I would immediately have my mom help out and I just didn't have that right. And then I get, I got frustrated and angry and upset and similarly like I, I went and I got the job I have now. And we needed to figure something out in the, in between because originally the job I had I was a teacher's aide and it was perfect for my daughter's first year because I got off at like little before 2:30. My husband started his shift at 3. We were pretty local so we were able to just pass off my daughter and no issues. But then I got the job I have now. I got off at 4 and I'm trying, I'm like, we, we don't have. And I'm in an office now. I'm still local, but in my gap, there's a gap. My husband's mom also worked till 4 so it was just, it was a lot like, you know, it's little things to navigate, to navigate. And I'm just like, I don't have my wide support system that I used to have. And so that's, I'm still navigating that because I'm just though now I work from home so it's a little easier if, if something gets changed, I, I can at least adjust and figure something out. And she's old enough to where she can Entertain herself. But like, before, when I was in the office, and even though it was only like six weeks, it was. It's. It's been hard and. And stuff like that. So, yeah, losing. Losing them even 11 years later is still very impactful because that's what you want. You want your family where they're, you know, that's who you want to turn to. And.
- [62:17]
B
And to lose them in such a heartbreaking and traumatic way.
- [62:21]
A
Yeah.
- [62:21]
B
I think just makes it that much more confusing and frustrating.
- [62:25]
A
Yes.
- [62:25]
B
Because it's something that was so preventable and you know that. You know, I think that that's what makes it like, that's where that anger comes from, I think.
- [62:35]
A
Absolutely. So she was very helpful in, like, because when you hear about the five steps to acceptance, you think like, anytime you take a step back, you're backsliding. And she goes, no, it's not black and white. It's not this. You're allowed to, like, accept, but get angry. You're allowed to accept. And then something reminds you of them, you know? So, like, I still remember one of the breakdowns I had. It was just before the one year anniversary. I expected the one year to be hard. I expected first birthdays. I expected all of that. This is the. And I look back and I was like, this was so deep. Dumb. But my. My family, we are White Sox fans. Go White Sox. And my mom's. I don't know if you've seen Friends the List episode. My mom's guy was Paul Ko. He was. Is the list. Like, there was no other name. And so the day my sister was supposed to graduate high school was also the day they retired. Paul Konerco, like, there was a whole, like, yeah. Ceremony for him. Broke down. Like, I was at work and I don't know, it, like, hit me like it was a trigger. I don't know even what triggered it, but, like, I ran to the back room bawling because I just. I couldn't. I couldn't take it anymore. And I. I just. Just bald. So that was. You know, I talked about that in therapy and I was like, I. I broke down. And she goes, yeah, you know, a lot of us. I was like, mother's Day wasn't as hard. She goes, because you expected it to be hard. The things that are actually hard when you go through it. Yeah, the firsts are hard. Yes, these are hard. Like, certain days are hard. But she goes, it's like the little things that really get you. Like, one of the days I finally decided I'm Like, I'm gonna go to the Chicago Botanic Gardens, and I'm just gonna go and enjoy and take it in, and it's really pretty. If you ever go to Chicago, I do recommend it. It's. If it's a nice day. And the whole time I was. I enjoyed it, but I was like, my mom would have really enjoyed this. Yes, currently. So, yes. So there's a lot of that, I think, also because my. My husband was there a lot of the. So a lot of people don't realize. So he was at the police station. He saw the scene of the crime. He saw the chaos. He saw the body bags being taken out of the house. A lot of people. So, like, our first year of marriage was really hard because so many people told him, well, you can't say that. So he. You can't say that to Michelle because remember that she's going through this. And I think he often got forgotten about. Like, he knew my family. He liked my family. You know, he was welcome to my sister's hospital room when she had her spinal fusion. We went to Six Flags all the time, all three of us.
- [66:01]
B
Well, it's also, I think, a traumatic event that would affect anybody. That was close. Yeah, close to. You saw parts of it.
- [66:08]
A
He's. And, yeah, he heard my scream. He goes. It's still. Every once in a while, like, enters his nightmares.
- [66:15]
B
It's heartbreaking.
- [66:16]
A
It is. It's so heartbreaking. And so it caused a lot of, like, he, I believe, officially was diagnosed with generalized anxiety and ptsd. So, like, our first year of marriage, like, our communication was terrible because he was told to not communicate, and he ended up just getting really snippy and really passive aggressive. And it was. You know, this is how I explained it to a lot of people. I have old husband who was so hard to talk to and deal with at times. And I know that sounds terrible because he's not. He was never a bad guy. But, like, he was very deflective. He was very defensive of himself. Like, I remember one time I even told him, I said, hey, I don't like that tone that you took with me. He goes, well, I didn't yell at you. I didn't do this. I didn't call you names. And he was very defensive of, like, the criticism. And then more recently, my husband, he loves taking long walks, and he's a very introverted person, and that's how he recharges his social battery. And then so last year, he. He had a job that was just really bad for his mental Health. The company was terrible. And so he was. He was basically like, anytime he was not working, he was out on one of his, like, hour and a half, two hour walks. And I finally told him when he left that job and I told him, I said, you know, our daughter is noticing you're not home because you're out on a walk. Like, she'll even say it. And, you know, I know you need a charge. I know it's nothing, but I also feel like. Because sometimes what happens is we'll finish dinner, we'll clean up together, and you're like, okay, I'm going for a walk, and out the door. Yeah. I said, it's starting to kind of give me a complex that you don't want to be around me. And he goes, I didn't realize I was making you feel that way. I'm so sorry. Thanks for telling me. And like, my husband, like, we're. We're gonna celebrate. We're gonna be 10 years married, actually.
- [68:41]
B
Congratulations.
- [68:41]
A
This Friday.
- [68:42]
B
Oh, that's awesome.
- [68:43]
A
Thank you. So, like, husband, even nine years ago, could not have told him something like that.
- [68:49]
B
Yeah.
- [68:49]
A
And so I think a lot of people don't realize, like, it. There was a lot that was affected.
- [68:56]
B
Yeah.
- [68:56]
A
By this. Our marriage was affected, you know, losing everybody. I will honestly say I started cutting certain family members off, even. And. Because it was just hard. But recently, you know, we're kind of going through something. Nothing. No one's sick or anything, but we're kind of going through something slightly indirectly in our family. And I can't turn to my. My husband's mom for it. And I. So I actually ended up calling my aunt, and I was like, I forgot what it's like to have a village. And that was really nice. So I've been slowly, like, reconnecting. Took a decade, but I've been reconnecting with, like, old parts of myself. But I've also, like, changed. And that also makes me sad because my. My parents, I feel like a lot of times did underestimate me in some ways, and I feel like I've. I have come out on the other side a lot. I'm very different now than I was even in college. My. My best friend and I, we were talking recently. We did room together in college at one point. We had, like, one of those apartment suites, and one of our roommates we had a conflict with and myself, another roommate. And like, another roommate. We were quiet the whole time. And my best friend said everything we were saying, and she still, every once in a while, Brings it up. And I'm like, I hate that about myself because I'm not that person anymore. Even when my one uncle screamed at me the day of the funeral, I was so silent about it. And I'm like, I hate thinking about that. I hate when that's brought up because I'm not that person anymore. But it was so. And it's sad because even though my dad's behind bars, he doesn't get to see this.
- [70:56]
B
Yeah.
- [70:56]
A
This part of me that I've become, like, I've really grown up.
- [70:59]
B
And you have no relationship with him.
- [71:01]
A
I'm assuming I have a mild relationship with him. Okay. I think what makes it hard, and I know a lot of people would probably like, you know, keyboard warriors or anybody would say, like, I would never. But he's it. When it comes to, like, that part of my life, that's all I have. I mean, I have my aunts and uncles, and I have the. You know, those people. But, like, you know, I see my husband with his dad. I see my husband with his mom and his sister. And, you know, you. When you talk about, like, growing up, they're the ones that saw it all.
- [71:39]
B
Yeah.
- [71:39]
A
He's all I have. And so I call it like a. Our arm's length.
- [71:47]
B
Yeah.
- [71:48]
A
Relationship with him.
- [71:49]
B
So do you see him, or is it just all over phone?
- [71:52]
A
It's. It's currently over. Like, the. They just switched over. But it's like an email system. Okay. That they have. I have talked to him on the phone. I have seen him one on one. Well, not one on one boy or in a room, but, like, with multiple people. But I saw him in person once.
- [72:12]
B
Okay.
- [72:12]
A
And that was that for you? Hard.
- [72:16]
B
Yeah.
- [72:16]
A
Awkward. Hard. I don't know. What do you say?
- [72:20]
B
Right. It's like, who is this person? It's hard. I feel like it's hard to know.
- [72:25]
A
It is. It's.
- [72:26]
B
It's confusing.
- [72:28]
A
It's hard to explain to people. But my father that's been in prison is not the father who raised me, who was part of my life for 26 years.
- [72:41]
B
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [72:42]
A
I have such good memories, you know, I have nothing but positive memories. I don't say, you know, like, I can't pinpoint, like, oh, this was, you know, negative. This was negative. Like, I think as a parent, we all try to figure out what we want to do. That's right. That we liked what our parents did and what we want to change in. And every generation does that. And so that's. I'm not any different but like, I don't say. Well, because he did this. It was such a bad childhood. Right. Because he spake me. I had a terrible father. No, I have no, you know, I, I was a self proclaimed daddy's girl now.
- [73:31]
B
Did you ever ask for details?
- [73:34]
A
No. Okay. I know what he used. I do know my sister's last words. I saw what they looked like in the open casket with makeup. That is all I need to know. Yeah, I don't think I could meant. I. I don't think I could mentally see the, the crime scene footage. I don't think I could. I have my suspicions on how it happened.
- [74:03]
B
Yeah.
- [74:04]
A
And like I, I'm very, I would say like 90 sure it was my mom first and then my sister. I looks like he went from behind. And like I said, I know what he used. It was not a gun. It was, they were. It was death by strangulation and asphyxiation. I know that's hard.
- [74:28]
B
And it, you know, like, it does make you wonder like you said how people ask you why he asked you to come home. Like, you know, like, was it because he wanted to do that to you.
- [74:39]
A
Or was it because he wanted me to find everything?
- [74:42]
B
Right. Like, like, right, like, like you were that 911 call for him originally. Right. You don't know.
- [74:48]
A
So one little piece of evidence that I forgot to add is he had a couple of these like little black cases. It had a letter to me. One of the news articles made it sound like I was a mistress, but I don't know why they did that. Bizarre. Okay. It was like the supposed. Michelle.
- [75:07]
B
Right.
- [75:08]
A
Even though the letter said your father and the note said your father is a failure at everything. And a couple of things that were like, for me, like savings bonds were in there. I don't, I can't even remember everything that was in this. These little black things. So those were literally. So our house, we had the storm door and then we had the main door. Yeah. And he had it in between there. So the police officer that made it to the scene first saw those and. Yeah, so that's why that's been a question. Like, where were you? Well, do you think. We still don't know. My husband, he goes, he's like 80% sure it was to have me find everything, but he's still like.
- [75:57]
B
Right.
- [75:57]
A
We won't know. He has not seen my father in person since the plea. But that, you know, didn't talk to him or anything. Yeah. And yeah. So that, you know, there's a lot.
- [76:11]
B
Of that and do you find that it's been harder for you to get closure without having a reason why, or have you done a good job of kind of letting that aspect go?
- [76:21]
A
I think I've done a good job with letting that aspect go. Every once in a while I do want. I'm, I'm like, just curious.
- [76:30]
B
Yeah.
- [76:30]
A
But then I kind of remind myself would. And those are like, I worked on mantras in therapy, like one of them. Would that change, right, anything right now? Well, no. Would it change anything? No. Because my mom and my sister and my dad are not here.
- [76:48]
B
Yeah. And even if you like ran through every reason why, it still doesn't even answer it. You know what I mean? Like, there is.
- [76:56]
A
We have a bunch of theories. Like I said, my dad, he quit his job and I think he. Another thing I've learned about myself, and I was actually pretty in my side of the family, is our anxiety. I spiral. I go to worst case scenario for everything and I'm like, what do I do? What do I. This? I. I panic. And that's kind of the, I think the anxiety space he started getting into, which is why he was having the panic attacks. Learned it from my aunt. She goes, yeah, I do it too. So I think it's like a. It looks like it's a trait on that side. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. When you visit the doctor, you probably hand over your insurance, your ID and contact details. It's just one of the many places that has your personal info. And if any of them accidentally expose it, you could be at risk for identity theft. LifeLock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year@lifelock.com podcast terms apply. But I've learned that. And so I've learned that when I get into that headspace, I'm like, no, one step at a time, right. I've learned, yeah, I kind of move forward with the closure. I learn that because also part of the spiraling is when I feel like I lose control though if I'm really, really bad, I start cleaning massively. And that's partially because when everything first happened, one of my aunts, her husband and my uncle, so my two, two of my dad's siblings and then one uncle from marriage went to my parents house and they were very nice to clean it up until I felt enough to where I finally felt comfortable to go there and start doing stuff myself. Because people can only be there for so long. I get it. Everyone has lives. And after the cleaning day, he came and he told me my aunt's husband was like, man, you had dishes in the sink. And like, he told him, I'm sitting there and I'm like, why are you. Do you think my mom expected right, this to happen?
- [79:17]
B
Yeah.
- [79:19]
A
So here I am. Like anytime I am super anxious, I. I clean.
- [79:23]
B
Yeah.
- [79:24]
A
Because I'm like, I do not want my husband and my daughter to have a comment like that happening to them. Now, even though our house looks lived in, we. Right. I have, I have a six year old who plays with to and you know, but like, I make sure like every night my dishes are done and put away, my food is in the fridge. Like, I, I don't want like someone to come and judge them if something were ever to happen to me. So like, I still do that. And I, I don't think that's gonna stop. My best friend is so sweet with that. She goes, you just call me because I will come clean your house. So if someone comes over, they won't. Can't say anything that is funny. But that's kind of like the, the cleaning now, it's. Wouldn't say it's obsessive compulsive because my house, I just, I do the certain things to keep it in order and because I can control it. So maybe it is mild. I don't know. I haven't been, I haven't been diagnosed with that yet. But like, I just kind of, I make sure like my. When I close down our place at the end of the night, I'm like, my dishes are done, food is in the sink. Food, you know, like, I'll just kind of do a quick sweep of the floor. If there's stinky garbage, I'm going to take it out because I don't want to smell that either.
- [80:37]
B
Right.
- [80:37]
A
But like, that's kind of what I do. I just make sure. And then the toys are at least somewhere because my husband does work evenings, so when he gets home, he's not going to trip over something. So that's, I mean, I feel like that's a basic cleanup of the house. But, you know, it's a way for me to kind of control my surroundings because otherwise I start to spiral. So.
- [80:59]
B
And whatever works for you.
- [81:01]
A
It does. It's. It is very helpful to like take on a little piece of control.
- [81:06]
B
Yeah. And I have to say too, you know, hearing the way that you speak about your story and what happened, you do it with such grace and ease. And I. I say that because obviously you don't. What's happening on the inside, I'm sure, is so much. But you are just like, the way that you are able to tell your story, it's like you. You do it with so much strength. And that's very. That's incredible that you're able to do that.
- [81:33]
A
Thank you. If you would have talked to me even like eight years ago, that I did have a point where anytime I talked, my hands would shake. Like, I would. Literally. That was kind of my. My first therapy appointment. I remember my hands were, like, shaking. And she goes, it's okay for you to shake. Just do it. It's okay. Just.
- [81:51]
B
It's your body's response.
- [81:52]
A
It's a response to trauma, so we will work on it. And she goes, everything in steps. Nothing is fast. I've also kind of reached a point in my life currently where I don't want to hide that part of me. I feel like that has been keeping me from making relationships because, you know, at some point, I'm so afraid that someone's going to ask me about what happened. Oh, how's your mom? And, you know, like, how's your relationship with your parents? How about your husband with your parents? Oh, does your daughter. So I'm just. And I don't want to have that because it's such an awkward thing to talk about.
- [82:30]
B
Such a. Like, to. It's not something where, like, yeah, of course you could say, oh, like, they passed away. But it's like in. In your mind, it. There is this. It's like, even you can say whatever you want, but I feel like within you kind of still feel like a burden about it, you know, in the sense of like, yeah, crap. Like, it isn't your normal situation at all.
- [82:51]
A
No. Someone recently asked me, even, you know, like, how about your daughter? Does she. I said, well, she. We just recently talked about a little bit that she knows she has another grandfather who is in prison. We haven't told her what happened yet. She's six, right?
- [83:08]
B
Yeah.
- [83:09]
A
She knows that my. Because she's starting to, like, really understand family lineage. So she knows that she has a grandma who is from Korea and she is no longer with us. She knows that I do have a sister who is also no longer with us. Actually know she has a sister who was born before her that's no longer with us. And so. And then she's like. She says it so nonchalantly. I have another grandpa, but he's in prison.
- [83:38]
B
Yeah. Right, Kids.
- [83:40]
A
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But you know, because I'm starting to share that piece of my. Like, I recently. My daughter started. She just. She's going to be going into first grade, so last year was her kindergarten year. And one of the moms I actually got close with, I finally was like, you know what? I'm gonna just say it. And I told her and I said, I don't need. I don't need you to like, be like, ah, or, you know, anything. I just. I figured this is something that's happened in my life and just in case, you know, I just. And it actually kind of. It was weird. It felt really good to just say it.
- [84:20]
B
Yeah.
- [84:20]
A
I don't know why, like, I can't explain, like, oh, why it felt so good. It just felt.
- [84:24]
B
I feel like too. Because it's one of those things that it's so heavy.
- [84:27]
A
It is.
- [84:27]
B
And it's not something that you necessarily have to share.
- [84:31]
A
No.
- [84:31]
B
But it's something that. That you probably do hold and carry with you.
- [84:35]
A
And I. I don't know, it's almost like that act of releasing it has helped. Yeah.
- [84:40]
B
It's like nothing's hidden. You know, when you're close with people, you want to feel like they know the. The main important things about me.
- [84:47]
A
Yeah. And I think the thing that made me really feel like I could finally share this part of the story. So just like a random tidbit, someone from the ID channel reached out to me, ended up saying no, because it just didn't fit the story.
- [85:05]
B
Yeah.
- [85:06]
A
But, you know, court cases are public record. And so they found this. And she reached out and we talked about it. And, you know, she was like. I kept telling her. I was like, I don't think this is going to fit your story. I don't want to say the show. But, like, essentially they want to talk about, like, what led up to somebody doing this. And usually it's like the person harmed animals in the past, like when they were kids. And so that's why it's not surprising or that, you know, this happened. And I'm like, right.
- [85:37]
B
Like little, like hints of.
- [85:38]
A
But.
- [85:39]
B
Right.
- [85:39]
A
There were no hints. She did offer to, like, tweak it a little bit. I was like, that's not. But that's not my story.
- [85:45]
B
Yeah.
- [85:46]
A
And it didn't fit. I feel like for me, I don't fit, like, a true crime mold because I can't tell you what happened in that house.
- [85:54]
B
Well, you know, and I always say that with this show. My point of creating this platform is so that people can tell their Story.
- [86:02]
A
Yeah.
- [86:03]
B
In whatever way that they want and whatever way they see is best fit. And for some, that might not be enough crime. Like, if that's what you want, go watch something else.
- [86:13]
A
Absolutely.
- [86:14]
B
But I don't think that there's enough platforms where it just allows people to tell their story without it being directed in any way. If that makes sense.
- [86:22]
A
Exactly. And, you know, so, like, for me, like, most of my, like, trauma and everything that happened. Yes, it happened. That was kind of like the trigger of it.
- [86:33]
B
Yeah.
- [86:33]
A
But it was, like, the aftermath. Like, the planning of the double funerals was hard. Seeing their bodies. Heck, like I said, my uncle screaming at me. I still have that memory. It's so, like, in my brain. And, like, how I. I know people are gonna say, like, how can you still talk to your dad? But, like, you really haven't forgiven him. And I'm like, it's very different. But, like, someone. I feel like that happened. And, yeah, it was terrible versus, like, I was. Someone came after me in my most vulnerable moment. Like, I was the most vulnerable I have ever been in my entire life.
- [87:13]
B
You know, and there's. I always tell people this. There are so many, many different aspects of everyone's story that someone can relate to. And, you know, even somebody could understand and relate to you from that perspective of knowing someone or being close to someone that did something horribly wrong, but they maintain some form of contact. And it might be similar where, like, the world or majority are like, how could you do it? I don't get it. But then hearing you say it, they're like, damn, like, that's me. I'm the same way. And that's so important.
- [87:44]
A
It is. And so, like, yeah, I. You know, I do have. Like I said, it's a. It's a arm's length. I do have a couple people in my life that are like, I don't know. I. I would never. And I'm like, because you're not in that. You don't trust me. Right. I'm that person before all of this happened. I would never do this. I would never do that. And I, like, if it were me, you know? But, like, I've. I think that's the other part that I've come to realize. Like, you won't know until you go through it. And not that I ever want anyone to go through this, because this is horrible. It's a horrible, like, piece of my life that I. That I can't change.
- [88:29]
B
Well, also, you could feel so strongly for a year, two years, five years, and then at year 10, you're like, you're in a completely different mind space with it.
- [88:39]
A
Well, it's so funny, too. I. I've looked at, like, my past Facebook posts where I, you know, like, the anniversary and like, in the beginning, it was a lot more about my sister and, like, that relationship. My mom and I were definitely in a good place. But, like, you know, you really don't know how much your parents love you until you. It's. It's that cliche. And so more recently, like, I've been really feeling a connection towards my mom, and I'm like, shoot, she really did love me. It was a pain in the butt. So, like, right now I'm currently. And I take things a few steps at a time. Like I said, mentally, I'm doing that currently. I. But the other parts of me like, that I'm making sure I want to be strong for my daughter is that I do differently for my mom, is, yes, I will do everything for you, but I also need to take care of me. So two years ago, I was diagnosed with pcos, and I'm still navigating that. And I'm like, of course I'm. Well, now I know why I've been having all these issues my entire Life. I was 35 when I got diagnosed, so, like, and I'm going to be 38, so that's fun to figure out. So I'm taking care of that aspect and I'm still learning currently. I actually just got. What is it? Sarah on's cookbook. And I'm trying to learn some Korean cooking because, yeah, I didn't take advantage of the fact that my mom was not going to be around forever because I thought even now she'd still be here teaching me some stuff. So I'm learning how it's little ways.
- [90:20]
B
That you can connect.
- [90:21]
A
I'm trying to connect a little more because I already had that connection with my sister. Like, we both kind of understood, like, mom's so strict and stuff. Like, so I had that connection already. So now I'm trying to connect again with my Korean heritage for a while. I also listened to another podcast, Full Coverage with Lauralee and Manny Mua, and something that really hit home with me was in very different scenario, Lara lost her mom when she was or lost her mom pretty young. And then she was 35 and her mom was 50. And she goes, crap, I'm 15 years younger than my mom was when my mom passed away. So she came up with a bucket list. And I was like, and I was 35. When she said that on her podcast. On the podcast. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm 35. My mom was 50.
- [91:15]
B
Yeah.
- [91:16]
A
So we've currently, like. So I came up with my own bucket list, and we're starting to do it. So one of the things we did here was we went to the. The Orioles game yesterday. So I'm trying. My husband and I, one of our first things we bonded over was our love of baseball. And now he's a Cubs fan. I'm a Sox fan. I know anybody from Chicago is gonna say that, but, you know, we also just love going to baseball games. It doesn't matter. Like, I love going to Cubs games. He likes going to Sox games. We go to brewers games because we're not far from the border. Yeah. So our bucket list is going to every MLB stadium. So last year, we were able to finally check off Target Field. We went to Camden Yards. I think we're going to try and do two next year. Awesome. It's going to be a slow trip, but, you know, I. I feel like pieces of me from before are starting to come back. I'm starting to grow my village a little more. I've been making fun of friends again. One of them just had to move, but it's okay. She's only two hours away. It's fine. We can.
- [92:25]
B
Yeah, that's not bad.
- [92:26]
A
We can make it happen.
- [92:27]
B
But, like, you're allowing yourself to open up again.
- [92:30]
A
I am. And it. It really took a long time, and so I think, you know, but I. I'm okay with the fact that it took a long time because I feel like it really gave me a chance to process.
- [92:44]
B
You needed that time.
- [92:45]
A
Peace of myself. And I just want to show my daughter, too, that, like, it's okay to have things that are about you. It's okay to, you know, do things for you. So we, like. So this trip, we've been making sure we did a couple things that were for her, but, like, the baseball game was for me and my husband and. And things like that. So I'm. I'm more working on. I don't know. It's not like I started any kind of big following on social media or anything like that, but I'm just trying to figure out connections to my mom, but also opening myself up to new experiences and, you know, figuring out my health because I want to be around as long as I can be while understanding that nothing is linear. I can every. You know, even 11 years later, still have a moment where I want to bargain Or I'm just grieving something, and that's okay. And then I, you know, I also unders. I stick to my mantras, you know, like, nothing is linear. It's okay. Take one step at a time. I can only control myself. I can't control anybody else. So, like, for example, during the post conviction, my husband's mom was very upset that my aunts were there, and she was very livid. And she goes, how are you not angry at that? I'm like, that's something I worked on in therapy. I can't control what other people decide to do and what they. How they want to do things. I can only control me and myself and everything. And then I eventually did. My uncle helped me with this one, but he. I said, I'm not mad that they were there. That's fine. But I'm tired of people hiding it from me. Things from me, like, I'm gonna break, you know, they didn't. So they didn't reach out to me to tell me they were going to be there because they thought I was gonna shut them down. And I was like. He was very helpful. He goes, but you need that to be Michelle's decision, not. Not yours. You can't make that decision for her. But I've opened up the relationship with them. And the rule of thumb is overall, like, we don't talk about my dad unless, like, it's in the past, of course, because that's hard. 26 years again, you know, but we don't talk about certain things or, like, how I should or should not feel in, you know, So I don't know. Even though I'm almost 40, I feel like I'm learning a lot about myself and always learning, always, always learning and.
- [95:34]
B
That there is no end to your healing journey. And, you know, like you said it, nothing's linear, nothing's black and white. And we're constantly evolving and growing and changing. And at the end of the day, we are just human.
- [95:47]
A
Yes.
- [95:48]
B
And we're going to have good days, we're going to have bad days, we're going to have the in between days. And. But it's all okay.
- [95:52]
A
I'm going to have mundane days, which are great.
- [95:55]
B
Yes.
- [95:55]
A
And.
- [95:55]
B
But the fact, like I mentioned before, the fact that you are willing and able to share your story in such an amazing way is incredible. And that should be. That should make you so proud of yourself, truly.
- [96:08]
A
Thank you.
- [96:08]
B
That's not an easy thing to do.
- [96:11]
A
No, it's fault. No.
- [96:13]
B
It takes a lot of strength and vulnerability and it takes a certain it takes getting to a certain place in your healing journey to be able to do that.
- [96:21]
A
Yes. Like I said, I used to keep it to just the people who were right knowing. But not anymore. No, I want it needs to be out because I feel like closing that part of me is closing off, like, just it's going to keep me from opening up.
- [96:39]
B
Yep.
- [96:40]
A
And, you know, I want to make meaningful friendships. And especially as my daughter's going through school, you know, there's some people that I probably wouldn't talk to regularly, and there's some I do. And I want to be able to open up and keep those friendships and make them. That's all. Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome.
- [97:06]
B
Well, you did incredible, truly. And thank you so much. Thank you for coming here. Of course.