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[00:00]
A
I have a bit of a dysfunctional relationship with my family and my parents and such. And after Friday, I fly to Portland to see my mom. I need wisdom of how to navigate this relationship. I want to show up as the best version of myself. All these things, my head just starts going on in. So having a sponsor that I can be like. Tell me how to be like. I meet with them Thursday.
[00:41]
B
If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call one call placement. That's 888-831-1581. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. One call placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment Wellness and Spa and One Method Treatment Centers.
[00:59]
C
So you own cast treatment centers, but tell me, tell the viewers about yourself.
[01:04]
A
Well, I mean, I grew up in Laguna Hills, California. I'm tall, as you know you are, but I'm the shortest male in the family. So I grew up playing basketball, went to this high school called Modern Day.
[01:18]
C
Wow, you went to Modern Day?
[01:19]
A
I did, yeah.
[01:20]
C
That's a football school.
[01:21]
A
Football, Basketball. Captain of the basketball team. Drove 30 minutes just to get to high school, but was.
[01:29]
C
If you're an athlete, you'll drive any amount to get to that school.
[01:33]
A
Yeah. It's like playing in college, basically.
[01:35]
C
Exactly. They've got the red helmets with the W on it.
[01:39]
A
Yep.
[01:39]
C
Love that.
[01:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Monarchs. Is that an M or M or a W? It's one of those. But I. Yeah, I grew up in Orange county, youngest of three, and then, like, as I was in high school, started using drugs and struggling with my mental health and. And then I ended up going to New York to play basketball. Fordham in the Bronx. But then I ended up just in nightclubs and partying and in treatment at 22, you know, so. Yeah. What brought you into treatment, by the way? What brought you into working in treatment?
[02:16]
C
That's a great question. You know, when I was getting loaded, everybody said I needed treatment. And so I called Promises and I was telling them about my cocaine use and that I had a cocaine problem. And she says, well, it's going to be 20 grand, Patricia, whoever it was. And I said, but I called the poor one. I called the West.
[02:41]
A
Yeah, the west, the West. I wasn't.
[02:43]
C
I wasn't greedy. On a private room on the ocean. Da da da da. And I have $50.
[02:49]
A
Right.
[02:49]
C
Okay. It wasn't one of those.
[02:51]
A
Yeah.
[02:51]
C
I was grateful to go anywhere.
[02:53]
A
Yeah.
[02:53]
C
But I called her and I said, you know, this is my problem. And when she asked me for $20,000. I. I said to her, lady, if I had $20,000, I wouldn't have a cocaine problem. And she said, excuse me? And I said, you don't understand what I just said to you. And she said, no. And I said, then you can't help me. And so, you know, I was getting sober and at the log cabin.
[03:28]
A
Yeah, right.
[03:29]
C
And so every day, there would be guys raising their hands, the newcomer, and I'd always take them to breakfast. And then right next door was a little place to get your nails done. And I go, man, I need my nails done. Come on. Nails done? Yeah, come on. Let's live like elegant people. Come on. And so we get the nails done. Then right next door to that is a haircut. So I'd get my hair cut when I had hair, and they'd get their hair cut. And then I'd say, hey, man, before I take you back to the car, I need to run and grab a couple things here at the Gap. You don't mind, right? No, no, no, no. And then I'd buy him all sorts of shit. Five pairs of jeans, five shirts, you know, whatever, right? All the stuff. And then he thinks I'm taking them home, and I take them right to Genesis House, where I went soberly living, right? And I always had someone. Even when I couldn't stay sober, I always had someone in sober living because I've always. I've always cared more about your sobriety than mine. Okay? I knew. I knew right from wrong. And when I finally got sober, I had no intention of doing a treatment center, because I'd never been to a treatment center, right? I'd been to sober living. So I went ahead and I opened up a men's sober living, and the state came down and they said, you're operating illegally. So what are you talking about? You're giving treatment? No, I'm not. Well, there's a therapist here. Well, I said, of course there's a therapist here. People need. Need therapy. Well, therapies, treatment. And I'm like, shut up. And they're like, oh, it is. Because I didn't know. So then I just had my lawyer get my. Get my license, and that place was born. That's how I did it.
[05:20]
A
Wow.
[05:20]
C
It was a mistake.
[05:21]
A
And then I was. Because you sold Cliffside. And then what made you get back into treatment? Because you could have just.
[05:29]
C
Yeah.
[05:30]
A
Was it out of, like, boredom?
[05:33]
C
No, I wasn't really bored, but I didn't have the purpose that I should have. Right. Well, first of all, I Missed my friends. I missed all of my friends, and I left them all behind. Okay. Because that's what you do when somebody buys your business.
[05:49]
A
Right.
[05:50]
C
They're not buying your business.
[05:51]
A
They're buying the people, all the relationships, everything.
[05:54]
C
That's right. If you're one of the best in the world at giving people back their loved ones and you don't do it, you're a dick. You're just a dick. So I had to do it. People are dying all over the place. That's what this thing's for. I've never seen a podcast. I've never listened to a podcast. I don't even know if I'm any good at it. I have no clue. All I'm doing is creating awareness around the fentanyl issue and letting people know that we're out of time. And at the slightest hint now of an issue, kids got to go to treatment. That's it.
[06:27]
A
Yeah.
[06:28]
C
Otherwise you're burying your kid. So that's why I'm doing this. But that's also why I came back. But I really missed my friends, you know, I really missed my friends.
[06:37]
A
Yeah. I took off a few years and just was, like, traveling and thinking that that was gonna set me up to, like, have this. And at first, it's amazing because you're like, wow. I mean, all these strangers and spiritually like, oh, this is. This is life. And then after a while, you're like, where's my purpose? Like, what am I doing? I'm.
[06:56]
C
That's right.
[06:57]
A
I'm not fulfilled. I'm a little running on empty. And so I'm with you that it's always good to kind of dig into a project or something to, like, you know, get back and feel connected, especially.
[07:12]
C
If you're good at this, because so many people aren't, and there are so many bad actors in our business. Right. So if you're one of the good ones and you can actually, like, help people and you don't do it.
[07:28]
A
At the peak, how many treatment centers were there in Malibu, do you think? At the peak of 26. 26 treatments, yeah.
[07:34]
C
And we were the last one, so we were. When I got into it, there were 26. 24, 26. And I remember.
[07:41]
A
Do you remember Renaissance?
[07:42]
C
Of course.
[07:42]
A
That house. Like, what the hell was that?
[07:45]
C
That was. Well, it was impressive.
[07:48]
A
It was an impressive house.
[07:49]
C
It was an impressive house. But they did. But nobody knew who they were, and they were mismanaged and they went away. But when I got here, there were 24 of them, and it was Promises, and then all the way down. But Promises was number one.
[08:02]
A
Yeah.
[08:03]
C
And then I think Summit had just opened. Seasons was opening at the same time. I was right. And. And I would just. You know, I was at the bottom, and I would just take my marker every time I passed somebody up, and I would just cross people off the list until. All right, let's. Let me ask you some questions. All right?
[08:33]
A
All right.
[08:33]
C
How'd you get sober?
[08:37]
A
I. Give me the.
[08:39]
C
Give me the. Give me the. Drunk a log first. Give me the greatest hits.
[08:43]
A
The greatest hits. No, I was living in New York. I was bartending a place called the Roxy, which is a big nightclub. Dropped out of school, and up until that point, I had never done crystal meth. So the thing is, if you drink. If you just drink, usually it takes 20 to 25 years before you really. Unless you're just so severe. So when you do harder drugs, as you know, it's like, it expedites your bottom. And so.
[09:16]
C
Especially meth.
[09:17]
A
Especially meth. And so the thing for me is I always had this, like, desire, like, be better. Do better. And I. I couldn't stop using it. So, like, I'd throw it away. I would buy it. A week later, I'd throw it away again. I'd go to a harm reduction group. I, like, have a therapist come into my house and my. In my apartment that my dad sent me. Like, I didn't even know. The thing is, until, like, you get good treatment, you don't even understand sobriety. I ended up going through Hazelden and became an alcohol and drug abuse counselor. And then I did interventions for this company called the Air. It was a big intervention company back in the day, and they needed someone to open their west coast office. So I moved in with my mom in Orange County. I borrowed my suits from my dad. And then after about a year and a half, I had a lot of clients. I've always been, like, hungry, similar to you.
[10:07]
C
Hold on one second. That's the greatest thing. You moved back home with your mother, and you wore your dad's suits. How old were you?
[10:14]
A
24.
[10:15]
C
Wow.
[10:15]
A
Yeah. And. And then I positioned myself as, like, the guy you want to intervene on your son or daughter, who's in their 20s. So you had these guys, Earl Hightower, you had John Southworth. You had these interventionists. And I was like, yeah, you could go with them, or you can go with me. I'm a little more relatable.
[10:34]
C
That's right.
[10:34]
A
And I'm gonna be half the price. I have a bit of A dysfunctional relationship with my family and my parents and such. And after Friday I fly to Portland to see my mom who I haven't seen in several years. So I'm going to see my sponsor who lives in LA on Thursday. I need wisdom from someone who knows me of how to navigate this relationship because I'm going to be with my mother for two days. Who's. And there's a very long history with her. So I want to show up as the best version of myself. And sometimes in situations we don't know, like am I supposed to show up just being other centered? Am I supposed to spend all my time with her? Am I supposed to like all these things? My head just starts going on and so having a sponsor that I can be like, tell me how to be like how I should show up.
[11:29]
C
Did he tell you to show up with the heart of a servant and that there was nothing to get only to give.
[11:35]
A
I meet with them Thursday. Such a dramatic.
[11:40]
C
Just, just, just be, just, just be of service to this woman. It's going to be two days. You can do anything for.
[11:47]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I'm intentionally going there to see her and then I fly to see my dad. I'm doing kind of the family joint with the whole.
[11:53]
C
The heart of a servant.
[11:54]
A
Yeah.
[11:55]
C
Joyfully.
[11:56]
A
I wrote a few books. Right, right.
[11:57]
C
And which I, which, which by the way, I'm going to order right after this because in doing my research on you beforehand. Look at this.
[12:05]
B
Huh?
[12:06]
C
Right? You're big shot.
[12:08]
A
Okay.
[12:08]
C
No, you are. And look, if you weren't, I tell you, okay, you're a big shot in this industry. You've been in it for 20 years. You've helped a lot of people. I know who the you are. Okay, so.
[12:20]
A
So my third book. So thank you. So the first two, they made New York Times bestsellers, which is like the best one in every 10,000 books. That's right. That's what Chatgpt told me. So it's. And I feel like, I mean it all is timing and, and I was on a TV show for four years.
[12:34]
C
But what TV show?
[12:35]
A
Dr. Phil Every other week for four years. So I want to talk to you about that. I love Dr. Phil. Yeah, I was on. I changed. He would share the dressing room. He was my mentor for few years. Writing a book is a very tedious thing. It's like it. Have you written a book?
[12:52]
C
Yeah, I wrote a book with my addiction research fellow called Ending Addiction for Good and I've got a new one out called Transcendence. Yeah. It's about, you know, thriving. If I had to put a caption to it, it would be, sobriety isn't its own gift.
[13:10]
A
Sobriety isn't its own gift.
[13:12]
C
That's right. It isn't. Thriving is. Is a gift of sobriety. Okay? Living a life that you can be proud of is a gift of sobriety, but being sober is not a gift. I didn't let you get through the. The monologue.
[13:29]
A
Oh. So then I went to treatment live with my mom, did interventions. And then I started casting in my apartment in Venice with, like, free groups. And then I met this guy who did this sober companion gig for me. His name is Jose Hernandez. Do you know Jose?
[13:51]
C
Everybody knows Jose Hernandez.
[13:53]
A
So Jose, he was my first sober companion. And then. Crazy case, crazy Russian. The guy was a.
[14:02]
C
He didn't drink vodka, did he?
[14:04]
A
No. But there's a gay Russian who had a hooker who was straight, and they were in a relationship, and the hooker was male. Male. Both. And so it was the craziest dynamic. And Jose was incredible. And then. I mean, I'm now in my third office. I've been here for 12 years. The one before that had no windows. The one before that was just so ghetto. But somehow I managed to. To do this thing, you know, it's. It's like. And then, you know, I started working. My thing is I ended up in the entertainment space. So it went from doing interventions, you know, with, like, people in crises, to then doing crises work. So public affairs, bands breaking up. So I ended up going much more into the crisis management, crisis coaching world, which I liked because it got me out of working with treatment centers, right? And then I threw a charity event, and that's when I met Dr. Phil. And then Dr. Phil said, do you want to go on a show tomorrow? This is a crazy story. So he says to me, do you want to go on a show tomorrow? I said, sure. I went on the show. Like, no freaking idea what I was doing. Like, never had on my vision board to do television or anything. And then he was like, you were pretty good. And then they put me on another episode two days later. And then he sat me in his office, and he goes, you know what you need? I said, well. He goes, you need a New York Times bestseller. I said, okay. He goes, what are you doing today? I'm like, I'm at home. He's like, hop on my jet. Let's go meet your agent. Flew me to Dallas. This is all true. Met my agent. I didn't even really have Instagram or Anything at the time got me a huge deal. Book advance. And then the book just crushed it in 23 languages.
[16:06]
C
He went ahead and pumped it on his show.
[16:09]
A
Pumped. Not just sold, pumped it. Pumped it. I'm talking, had the book out of him saying, turn to page 36 where you talk about such and such.
[16:19]
C
Shut.
[16:19]
A
He promoted. He promoted the book so heavy that it just kept selling. I mean, I've sold half a million copies of a book. Books are impulse buys.
[16:29]
C
I think I. I think I sold 50 copies.
[16:32]
A
It's hard.
[16:32]
C
I don't know how.
[16:33]
A
No, but it's really hard to sell books because you got to figure out how to get through the market. And so. And then it was like he. He wrote the foreword, and then Jennifer Lopez gave me the endorsement on the back of the book. And so it just kind of. And then I had other entertainers support it. So.
[16:52]
C
That's amazing.
[16:53]
A
Yeah, it was good.
[16:53]
C
That's amazing.
[16:55]
A
But what was interesting is the more I did television, so I was on, I did probably 40 episodes. And like, it was interesting because the less treatment centers, like, fuck with me. Like, it was like I was. You would have thought they would want someone out in media who does interventions or addiction who's like. And I found that, like, people were like, not that loving and accepting of me in the industry when I started going and doing television. That's just.
[17:23]
C
They're jealous.
[17:24]
A
But it was so weird.
[17:25]
C
Like, it's not because they didn't have the stones to show up. See, you lucked into it, but you showed up 40 times and then you hit it out. Then you hit a rope. Okay. And. And you know, you made it.
[17:41]
A
Yeah.
[17:42]
C
Okay. You know, nobody does that. Nobody shows up and then executes.
[17:50]
A
Yeah. Every time I showed up on an episode, it was like a job interview. That's right. I knew that if I didn't deliver, you're gone. I remember one time I sat down with them because they send you a hundred page document before about the guest who's on the show. And I was in his dressing room and he's getting his hair done, which is literally he's bald, so it's not much hair to do. And I remember he said to me, he goes, there was a guy on the show who hadn't left his house in a long time, had long shaggy hair. And he asked me what we should do. I'm like, well, I think we should do such and such. He's like, that's all you got?
[18:21]
C
Who said that?
[18:22]
A
Dr. Phil. That's all you got, huh? And you said, it's the number one television show on daytime tv. That's all you got? And so I said, well, what if we cut his hair on stage? He's like, that's it. The barber comes out on stage and like to help him with a reinvention. But like, that's how it felt every time. I mean, it was good because it forced me to keep raising my bar. You know, you can't coast with him. He's. He's gnarly. Like, he's, he's got like. I mean, I don't even know who or who doesn't have photographic memories, but he does not forget anything.
[18:54]
C
Right.
[18:54]
A
And he just kind of like looks over at you and you're just, you know. So now I'm. I sent you the sizzle for my next show that I'm working on so that that show hopefully will happen. It'll be like my own, which would be really exciting for me.
[19:07]
C
Good.
[19:07]
A
If it hits.
[19:08]
C
So why'd you get sober?
[19:11]
A
Pain, self esteem issues? I had a very difficult time being gay. Like, you're gay? Yeah.
[19:19]
C
Oh, you gotta leave.
[19:20]
A
Yeah, I know that's upsetting. I know. That's not why I did drugs. But it was definitely. When you go out in the gay world, there's so many drugs.
[19:28]
C
Like, what's the hardest truth about yourself that you've had to face?
[19:33]
A
The hardest truth about myself that I've had to face? Oh, God.
[19:51]
C
No filter. This is all real. Give it to me.
[19:53]
A
No, I get it. The hardest truth about me that I've had to face. I would say it was. I relapsed after 19 years.
[20:06]
D
Wow.
[20:06]
A
On a medication, writing my second book by a doctor who kept pushing me to take a drug called Focalin. It's Adderall and Ritalin and basically I abused it, so I took it.
[20:19]
C
Well, of course you did. It's your drug of choice.
[20:20]
A
I know, I know. You know those people in your life that you like them, they show up and then you feel like you may be over shared and you're like, I shouldn't have said certain. Maybe you don't have that because you have no filter. But sometimes there's people in our lives that I feel like they don't deserve to get certain knowledge.
[20:39]
C
Right.
[20:39]
A
And when we share can become gossip or they can twist it and afterwards you're like, fuck, I shouldn't have said that. That's one of those types of people. So it's exceedingly difficult because I had. My next book is going to be about relapse now three and a half years. But it was really difficult because.
[20:57]
C
How much time you got now?
[20:58]
A
Three and a half.
[20:59]
C
Let me ask you a question. How long were you abusing that meth? No. Oh, the medicine that the doctor gave you.
[21:08]
A
Probably about eight months.
[21:11]
C
Did you create any wreckage?
[21:14]
A
Little bit. Not horrible.
[21:18]
C
As a result of the drugs like you can be.
[21:20]
A
No. Psychologically it. I was twacked for like the first.
[21:24]
C
Don't care about. Yeah, I care about the wreckage. Did you create any wreckage that you have had to. In that. In that eight months that you have that you've had to deal with still for the next three and a half years or any part of it because you were loaded and you up?
[21:41]
A
No.
[21:41]
C
Okay.
[21:42]
A
No, it's more a. Like people say time doesn't matter and it's one day at a time. And it sounds good on theory, but we celebrate birthdays, we hug at one day at a time. Some bitches are saying their sobriety date when it's. I've been sober 1,300, you know, and.
[22:00]
C
Yeah, I hate that.
[22:01]
A
And so I was going to meetings here and like in these meetings they would go around the room and everyone would say their clean time. I don't believe that's actually about the newcomer. I believe that's about some of these people with long term sobriety to see like I have this.
[22:14]
C
Well, of course it is because the newcomer can't even imagine a week.
[22:18]
A
I know. So. So then I had. My company was trying to get cast, was trying to give me a 20 year cake. I didn't have 20 years. I was like, I had clients with more time than me because I abused it. So it's all fine now. But that was a fucking horrible psychological.
[22:36]
C
How'd you stop?
[22:40]
A
I was so. I had an ex boyfriend who lived in Brazil. I think that was part of the wreckage is I had the grand idea that I should be with a guy who lives in Hasifi, Brazil, which is about 30 hours from LA. And so we. So my judgment was a little lacking.
[22:54]
C
Okay, that's the only mistake you made.
[22:58]
A
I now like I sponsor a lot of guys who have long term sobriety. Like I love working with people at long term and went out because there.
[23:03]
C
Is all that you relapse.
[23:06]
A
Oh yeah. My next book is going to be about relapse and or reinvention or something along those lines. And yeah, it's. It's a crazy thing that I didn't understand before. When you relapse after a long term recovery. I didn't I did not get why you can't just, like, get back on it and everything's.
[23:30]
C
But you did. You did get back on.
[23:33]
A
Was a messy, messy road.
[23:35]
C
Fine.
[23:35]
A
But. Yeah. Yeah. But it was tougher than I would have ever.
[23:37]
C
Sure, sure.
[23:38]
A
How much time do you have?
[23:39]
C
But the. But hold on a second. But the fact that you had 19 years, you know, the be. I always tell people the best medically assisted treatment is top notch care. Top notch treatment. Right. Because you can't unring a bell. And you had, you know, you were locked in for 19 years.
[24:04]
A
19.
[24:04]
C
Okay.
[24:05]
A
So you.
[24:06]
C
Your run. It's shocking to me that your rock. That your run lasted that long, but it's still only eight months. And you created no wreckage. None. And now you have even a deeper understanding.
[24:20]
A
Yeah.
[24:20]
C
Holistically. Of what this thing is.
[24:23]
A
Yeah.
[24:23]
C
Because we forget.
[24:25]
A
Yeah.
[24:25]
C
With 19 years, you forget.
[24:27]
A
Totally. I wrote books about it. I own a treatment center. I'm like. I'm like. And I had such brain fog. And my advance was well over seven figures for my second book, so. Right. I wanted to give the money back. And then this doctor's like, well, you have add. I'm like, yeah, I know. I've been told. No, no, you really need to be on something with me at the pharmacy. I mean, it's kind of creepy. I don't know if there's the devil on earth or not, but the whole experience, I knew better. I should have called somebody and talked to them, and instead I was looking for a quick way out. Oh.
[24:58]
C
The reason is. Is because we drink our own Kool Aid.
[25:01]
A
Yeah.
[25:01]
C
Right. We're the best. We're the man. We've done this.
[25:04]
A
You know, And I had this therapist. I remember I had this therapist at one time who was like 25 years sober. And she was on. I remember she said she takes Ritalin to help her with her. And I remember seeing. Okay, she's shown up for work for me for a few years. I know she's taking Ritalin. Maybe it's not such a big deal.
[25:24]
C
You know, sobriety sucks if you're not. If you're not thriving if you're not. If you're not happy. Forget thriving if you're not happy. Look, if you don't. If you're not as happy or as contented or if your life isn't as good sober as it is on drugs, you're going back to drugs.
[25:46]
A
Yeah, for sure.
[25:47]
C
For sure. Okay. So I wanted people to know sober isn't enough. Sober gets you all the gifts. You Want. That's the baseline. But then it's about, what are you gonna be? What are you gonna do? Right. How you gonna get there? Right. So that's that.
[26:05]
A
Yeah.
[26:06]
C
What do you think?
[26:08]
A
I think everyone's different. I don't. I haven't been a big believer in disease model, even though that's, like, such a thing. I think it. It was a good piece of pitch for insurance companies to pay because you had to make it some sort of illness in order to get an insurance company to. To do it. But I think. I mean, I think mental health in general, whether there's substances like at cast, we're like majority. I'd say about 60. Primary mental health.
[26:37]
C
Right.
[26:38]
A
And you got a mental health Iop license. Yeah.
[26:41]
C
Good.
[26:41]
A
And that's really helpful.
[26:44]
C
People call for that all the time. We can send those people right to you.
[26:47]
A
Great.
[26:48]
C
Because we don't take them.
[26:49]
A
Right. Right.
[26:51]
C
Talk to Michelle about this stuff.
[26:52]
A
Yeah. I'm gonna meet with her after this. I wanted to connect with you because I'm going. Because I'm going up there and I'd heard your name for so many years, and we'd never connected. It's kind of one of those things, like, where I was like, I should meet him. Maybe I could learn from him, you know?
[27:09]
C
Stop it.
[27:10]
A
Yeah. Really.
[27:10]
C
It's nice. It's nice that you're here. I've heard about you for years. Heard about you for years, man. You're one of the good ones. And we're not in competition.
[27:20]
A
We're not. That's why I'm here. No, I'm well aware.
[27:25]
C
You know anybody who's died? I mean, I know that's a crazy question to ask somebody in our business, but.
[27:31]
A
Yeah.
[27:31]
C
Anybody like that. That when you think about it, you get choked up.
[27:43]
A
Interesting. Such a blur. Like light. It's such a blur. Working in treatment. It's like. Because I'm trying to think of any friends have died from.
[28:06]
C
Because a ton of clients have.
[28:07]
A
Yeah.
[28:08]
C
Okay. I mean, we have. We've had two instances where someone has made an appointment to come to treatment. I hate that. I'll be there in two weeks. Here's your deposit. Save a bed. Listen to me. It's best that you come now. You're using drugs on the street. 70% of that stuff's laced with fentanyl.
[28:35]
A
Yeah.
[28:35]
C
Okay. You're not a fentanyl user. Listen to me. Come in now. Everything's okay. I promise. Hey, man, let me think about it. Two weeks goes by. Okay? He don't show up. We check parents. He died last week. That's happened to us twice.
[28:54]
A
Wow.
[28:54]
C
Already. Who believed in you before you believed in yourself?
[28:59]
A
Oh, boy. Who believes in me before? I believe himself. Well, with the TV stuff, Dr. Phil, definitely. He, like, saw it. He would, like, rocket ship me.
[29:09]
C
That's great. Is he still on?
[29:12]
A
He has his own network now.
[29:13]
C
He does?
[29:14]
A
Yeah.
[29:14]
C
The Dr. Phil network.
[29:15]
A
No, it's called. He had a network called Merit, then he phased out of that, and it's called Envoy, I think. But, yeah, they just. I don't. I don't understand how.
[29:27]
C
Does he have a show?
[29:28]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
[29:30]
C
Does he have a podcast?
[29:31]
A
He does.
[29:32]
C
He's got a podcast, too.
[29:33]
A
Yeah. It does really well. A ton.
[29:35]
C
Dude, he's such a beast. It's crazy.
[29:39]
A
Yeah, he's got a lot.
[29:40]
C
I. I mean, when. When I.
[29:42]
A
Especially when it was just TV was the only thing. It was. TV was the only 19 million people watching.
[29:47]
C
Yeah. That's crazy.
[29:48]
A
But I would see the other person believes me. I do jiu jitsu four days a week.
[29:52]
C
Good.
[29:52]
A
My professor saw me yesterday. It's another person in my life.
[29:55]
C
Good.
[29:56]
A
Compete.
[29:57]
C
Good.
[29:57]
A
Yeah.
[29:58]
C
That's important.
[29:59]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
[30:00]
C
Gives you discipline. I told my kids to do that.
[30:03]
A
They should.
[30:04]
C
They didn't. They didn't. They didn't do that. They played the instruments and they speak Spanish. Okay. But I didn't get the washer.
[30:13]
A
I love some.
[30:13]
C
I got two out of three.
[30:15]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Those are good ones.
[30:16]
C
Those are the only three I asked for. By the way, how do you stay humble when everyone around you calls you coach?
[30:23]
A
Well, I didn't go by Coach Mike until I went on Dr. Phil, and then they labeled me Coach Mike. I still cringe a little bit if people utilize that. I don't know. I feel like we all have, like, gifts in life. This is my belief. We're all artists of some sort. And some people can't seem to tap into their art. Maybe they grew up in a family where their dad pressured them to go be an attorney, and they really would have been an amazing teacher or something.
[30:58]
C
I like their father.
[31:01]
A
So I think that we all have these gifts in life and that when we lean into them. And one of those things that I find that I'm able to help people do is to free themselves, to be authentic. I feel like I have a gift at. When I'm really sitting down with someone and we have chemistry in the dynamic, I can really get someone out of their mental chaos and get them into their truth. And that's when I feel Like, I'm like a coach, but at the same time, I have plenty of issues in my life, and I don't think. I think it's because I don't think I'm better than people. So I.
[31:42]
C
You don't?
[31:43]
A
No, I don't.
[31:44]
C
Real.
[31:44]
A
Truthfully. Truthfully, you don't think you're better than anyone? No. No, I think. I think me neither. No, but I. Because. Because, like. Okay, better than. I'm not that organized. There's someone who's better than me at being organized or someone better at me than showing up on time. There's someone better at me at planning this. There's someone better than me at cooking. There's someone better than me at understanding medication. Like, what does better even fucking mean? Like. Like, I. I think that.
[32:14]
C
Well, for me, better is better.
[32:16]
A
I came up with this term when I started doing TV that people have selective kindness, that people will say, oh, my God, they're such an amazing person. Because, you know, you interact with so many people. But I found that a lot of these people just select where they put their kindness, that they're really not.
[32:33]
C
They're really not kind. They're. They're kind in. In spurts.
[32:37]
A
In spurts. When it happens to be a dynamic. Because, you know, in tv, you're only.
[32:41]
C
Kind to people when you have something.
[32:43]
A
To gain or if you. Yeah. Whether you want to be liked more, respected more, or whatever. And it's just. That was kind of hard for me in the TV world of it all, because it was. It was. It's very much that in tv.
[32:56]
C
Okay. What does freedom mean to you today? Great question.
[33:01]
A
Being in the moment. Freedom means being in the moment. Freedom is connecting with who I want to connect with, when I want to connect with. Freedom is a good night's sleep. Freedom is love.
[33:17]
C
That's a much better answer than I would have given.
[33:20]
A
It's the truth, though, right? Like, not for me. Love isn't.
[33:23]
C
Not for me. Well, of course. Love is the baseline for everything.
[33:26]
A
Yeah.
[33:27]
C
It's basically, you know, that's my. My whole place is the baseline of love. I call it a love call. Right. I mean, that's what we do. That's what I hang my hat on. That's my brand for treatment. But for me, freedom is the ability to do whatever you want with your time. That is my definition of freedom.
[33:55]
A
Yeah.
[33:56]
C
And I've been so poor that I couldn't pay attention. I mean, I've been homeless. Right. That ain't freedom. Right. Freedom isn't going to the Market and not being able to write a check for eggs or bread because you've got 800 bad checks and check systems. Freedom isn't walking into the market and buying six fake top ramen for a dollar rather than five real top ramen for a dollar, because you get another top ramen. Okay. That ain't freedom.
[34:33]
A
Right.
[34:33]
C
Okay. Now, during my days, I can literally sit and think. I can have a friend come to the house. Okay. Who just wanted to shoot the. And talk and hold him hostage for two hours in a. In a. In a podcast.
[34:50]
A
Right?
[34:51]
C
Right. I mean, my days are mine. What do you want to be remembered for? The business or the lives changed? That's kind of stupid.
[35:02]
A
That's easy.
[35:03]
C
Yeah. Okay. What do you want to be remembered for?
[35:07]
A
Well, I'm not a big guy on legacies.
[35:10]
C
You're not?
[35:11]
A
No. Like, I think, like, once I'm dead, I'm dead. And, like, I don't know, you see someone's brick at a hospital and you're like, oh, who is this?
[35:18]
C
Is that because you don't have kids?
[35:20]
A
No. I mean, I would rather be known just as being a good person who help people. That's it. Like, oh, Mike, Mike help people and does good. Like, I'm similar to you. I help a lot of people. And in my free time, my assistant right now is in prison for four years because I tried to help him. I got him out of. He was facing 10, but I met this guy to meet me.
[35:40]
C
You haven't. You had an assistant that's doing time?
[35:44]
A
Yeah, in South Carolina right now. He got caught with three pounds of meth. So I met him in a meeting, and then I tried to help him, and then I, like, gave him a job, you know? Like, I did everything. It was like this most lovable guy. I. I made a decision, too. Like, I don't raise my hand to sponsor at all anymore. I choose my sponsors. Yeah. Like, I did not like sponsoring people when I used to raise my hand. I just didn't have that, like, experience. But then when I see someone that I kind of am, like, oh, he's in the corner with a court card, and I know I can help him turn his life around. And, like, so I love doing stuff like that. Right. Like, unexpected, surprised generosity in my personal life, in business. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe one day cast on ourselves. I don't know. You know, it's like someone else picks it up, you know?
[36:31]
C
Thanks for coming by, Richard.
[36:32]
A
Thanks for having me.
[36:33]
C
No, I really appreciate it.
[36:35]
A
See you next Tuesday.
[36:36]
D
He said it we're out of time. Please subscribe on YouTube, click the thumbs up and leave a comment. Please subscribe on Apple Podcast and Spotify and leave a rating and a review and share the we're out of time podcast with others. You know who will get value out of it. See you next Tuesday.

Summary6 min read

Podcast Summary: We're Out of Time

Host: Richard Taite
Episode: Relapse After 19 Years: Mike Bayer on What Recovery Taught Him
Date: January 27, 2026
Guest: Mike Bayer (“Coach Mike”), addiction recovery expert and author

Episode Overview

This episode features a candid, wide-ranging conversation between Richard Taite and Mike Bayer, delving into the realities of addiction, the challenges of long-term recovery, personal reinvention, and the brutal truths of relapse—even after nearly two decades of sobriety. They share personal histories in the recovery field, debate what true fulfillment and freedom mean, and tackle the sobering urgency of the current fentanyl crisis in America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Dynamics and Seeking Guidance

Mike discusses the ongoing challenges of navigating a dysfunctional family relationship and how he prepares for an upcoming visit to his mother:
- "I want to show up as the best version of myself…my head just starts going on in. So having a sponsor that I can be like, 'Tell me how to be…'." (00:00-01:03)
Emphasizes the importance of having a sponsor and a support system to stay grounded and intentional during difficult interactions.

2. Entering the Recovery Field: Accidents, Purpose & Burnout

Richard shares how he accidentally started a sober living home and, after being forced to get licensed, found fulfilling purpose in helping others:
- "If you're one of the best in the world at giving people back their loved ones and you don't do it, you're a dick." (05:53)
Both discuss the recurring theme of needing purpose to avoid feeling “empty,” even after professional or financial success.
- "Where’s my purpose? Like, what am I doing? I'm not fulfilled. I'm running on empty." — Mike (06:37)

3. Addiction Landscape: Changes in Treatment and Crisis

They recount the boom and bust of Malibu treatment centers, the role of insurance and business incentives, the proliferation of “bad actors,” and the competitive nature of the industry.
- "If you're good at this, because so many people aren't, and there are so many bad actors in our business." — Richard (07:12)
Richard underscores the current fentanyl emergency:
- "All I'm doing is creating awareness around the fentanyl issue and letting people know that we're out of time. At the slightest hint now of an issue, kids gotta go to treatment. Otherwise you're burying your kid." (06:27)

4. Personal Journeys: From Rock Bottom to Recovery Work

Mike describes his descent into addiction while trying to succeed in sports and New York nightlife, leading to an intervention career and, ultimately, sobriety:
- "If you just drink…usually it takes 20 to 25 years before you really—unless you’re just so severe. So when you do harder drugs…it expedites your bottom." (09:11)
He shares how his relatability and age made him the "go-to guy" for young interventions:
- "You could go with them, or you can go with me. I'm a little more relatable. And I'm gonna be half the price." (10:33)

5. Psychology of Relapse After Long-Term Sobriety

Mike reveals a central theme: relapsing after 19 years, triggered by prescribed Focalin for ADHD.
- "I relapsed after 19 years. On a medication, writing my second book by a doctor who kept pushing me to take a drug called Focalin…it’s Adderall and Ritalin." (20:05)
Discusses the isolation, shame, and confusion of relapsing so far into recovery, and how little time truly “erases” memories of addiction.
Explores how the recovery community’s focus on time can paradoxically alienate those who slip:
- "People say time doesn't matter and it's one day at a time. And it sounds good in theory, but we celebrate birthdays, we hug at one day at a time…"
Mike is candid about the difficulty of getting back on track after long-term recovery—“It was tougher than I ever expected.” (23:34)

Notable Quote:

“The hardest truth about me that I've had to face…I relapsed after 19 years.”
— Mike Bayer (20:05)

6. Staying Grounded: Why Sobriety Alone Isn’t Enough

Richard articulates:
- “Sobriety isn't its own gift. Thriving is. Living a life that you can be proud of is a gift of sobriety, but being sober is not a gift.” (13:10)
The message: happiness, purpose, and community are vital, otherwise drugs become attractive again.

Notable Exchange:

Richard: "If your life isn't as good sober as it is on drugs, you're going back to drugs." (25:24)
Mike: "Yeah, for sure." (25:46)

7. Media, Success & Authenticity

Mike talks about his unexpected media career after Dr. Phil’s mentorship, leading to bestselling books and television opportunities:
- "Dr. Phil said…you need a New York Times bestseller. I said, okay. He goes, what are you doing today?…Hop on my jet." (15:40-16:18)
Discusses "selective kindness" in the entertainment industry:
- "People have selective kindness…They just select where they put their kindness…That was kind of hard for me in the TV world." (32:14-32:55)

8. Humility and Self-View as “Coach Mike”

On being called "Coach Mike," Mike is ambivalent:
- "I still cringe a little bit if people utilize that…But at the same time, I have plenty of issues in my life, and I don't think I'm better than people." (30:23-31:44)

9. Meaning, Freedom, and Legacy

Both discuss definitions of “freedom” and legacy:
- "Freedom means being in the moment. Freedom is a good night's sleep. Freedom is love." — Mike (33:00)
- "Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want with your time. That is my definition of freedom." — Richard (33:26)
On legacy, Mike says:
- "I'm not a big guy on legacies…once I'm dead, I'm dead…I would rather be known just as being a good person who helped people." (35:07-35:20)

Notable Quotes & Powerful Moments

On the treatment industry’s real competition:

"We're not in competition. Anybody who's died—I mean, I know that's a crazy question, but...anybody that, when you think about it, you get choked up?"
— Richard Taite (27:24)
On relapse and self-judgment:

"That was a fucking horrible psychological [experience]…I wanted to give the money back."
— Mike Bayer (22:36, 24:25)
On humility:

"I don't think I'm better than people...What does better even fucking mean?"
— Mike Bayer (31:44)
On freedom after homelessness:

"I've been so poor that I couldn't pay attention. I mean, I've been homeless…Freedom isn’t walking into the market and buying six fake top ramen for a dollar rather than five real top ramen."
— Richard Taite (33:55)

Important Timestamps

00:00-01:03 — Mike discusses family relationships and the importance of a sponsor.
05:53 — Richard’s candid take: “If you’re one of the best...and you don’t do it, you’re a dick.”
09:15 — Mike shares how harder drugs “expedite your bottom.”
13:10-13:12 — "Sobriety isn't its own gift. Thriving is." (Richard)
20:05 — Mike reveals his relapse after 19 years.
21:59-22:36 — The reality of recovery communities focusing on time and the resulting shame.
25:24-25:46 — “If your life isn’t as good sober as it is on drugs, you’re going back to drugs.” (Richard)
30:23-31:44 — Mike discusses feelings about “Coach Mike” and humility.
33:00-33:26 — What freedom means to both men.
35:07-35:20 — Mike on legacy: “I would rather be known as just being a good person who helped people.”

Closing Reflection

This episode offers a raw, unscripted look at the complexity of addiction recovery, the nuanced process of personal reinvention, and the importance of true purpose and service—both to others and to oneself. Mike Bayer’s honesty about relapsing after nearly two decades underscores that recovery is a lifelong, nonlinear process. Both host and guest deliver hard-earned wisdom through humor, humility, and a palpable sense of mission that cuts through industry noise—ultimately insisting that America wakes up to the crisis before, as the title warns, "we're out of time."

Loading summary

Transcript275 lines

[00:00]
A
I have a bit of a dysfunctional relationship with my family and my parents and such. And after Friday, I fly to Portland to see my mom. I need wisdom of how to navigate this relationship. I want to show up as the best version of myself. All these things, my head just starts going on in. So having a sponsor that I can be like. Tell me how to be like. I meet with them Thursday.
[00:41]
B
If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call one call placement. That's 888-831-1581. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. One call placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment Wellness and Spa and One Method Treatment Centers.
[00:59]
C
So you own cast treatment centers, but tell me, tell the viewers about yourself.
[01:04]
A
Well, I mean, I grew up in Laguna Hills, California. I'm tall, as you know you are, but I'm the shortest male in the family. So I grew up playing basketball, went to this high school called Modern Day.
[01:18]
C
Wow, you went to Modern Day?
[01:19]
A
I did, yeah.
[01:20]
C
That's a football school.
[01:21]
A
Football, Basketball. Captain of the basketball team. Drove 30 minutes just to get to high school, but was.
[01:29]
C
If you're an athlete, you'll drive any amount to get to that school.
[01:33]
A
Yeah. It's like playing in college, basically.
[01:35]
C
Exactly. They've got the red helmets with the W on it.
[01:39]
A
Yep.
[01:39]
C
Love that.
[01:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Monarchs. Is that an M or M or a W? It's one of those. But I. Yeah, I grew up in Orange county, youngest of three, and then, like, as I was in high school, started using drugs and struggling with my mental health and. And then I ended up going to New York to play basketball. Fordham in the Bronx. But then I ended up just in nightclubs and partying and in treatment at 22, you know, so. Yeah. What brought you into treatment, by the way? What brought you into working in treatment?
[02:16]
C
That's a great question. You know, when I was getting loaded, everybody said I needed treatment. And so I called Promises and I was telling them about my cocaine use and that I had a cocaine problem. And she says, well, it's going to be 20 grand, Patricia, whoever it was. And I said, but I called the poor one. I called the West.
[02:41]
A
Yeah, the west, the West. I wasn't.
[02:43]
C
I wasn't greedy. On a private room on the ocean. Da da da da. And I have $50.
[02:49]
A
Right.
[02:49]
C
Okay. It wasn't one of those.
[02:51]
A
Yeah.
[02:51]
C
I was grateful to go anywhere.
[02:53]
A
Yeah.
[02:53]
C
But I called her and I said, you know, this is my problem. And when she asked me for $20,000. I. I said to her, lady, if I had $20,000, I wouldn't have a cocaine problem. And she said, excuse me? And I said, you don't understand what I just said to you. And she said, no. And I said, then you can't help me. And so, you know, I was getting sober and at the log cabin.
[03:28]
A
Yeah, right.
[03:29]
C
And so every day, there would be guys raising their hands, the newcomer, and I'd always take them to breakfast. And then right next door was a little place to get your nails done. And I go, man, I need my nails done. Come on. Nails done? Yeah, come on. Let's live like elegant people. Come on. And so we get the nails done. Then right next door to that is a haircut. So I'd get my hair cut when I had hair, and they'd get their hair cut. And then I'd say, hey, man, before I take you back to the car, I need to run and grab a couple things here at the Gap. You don't mind, right? No, no, no, no. And then I'd buy him all sorts of shit. Five pairs of jeans, five shirts, you know, whatever, right? All the stuff. And then he thinks I'm taking them home, and I take them right to Genesis House, where I went soberly living, right? And I always had someone. Even when I couldn't stay sober, I always had someone in sober living because I've always. I've always cared more about your sobriety than mine. Okay? I knew. I knew right from wrong. And when I finally got sober, I had no intention of doing a treatment center, because I'd never been to a treatment center, right? I'd been to sober living. So I went ahead and I opened up a men's sober living, and the state came down and they said, you're operating illegally. So what are you talking about? You're giving treatment? No, I'm not. Well, there's a therapist here. Well, I said, of course there's a therapist here. People need. Need therapy. Well, therapies, treatment. And I'm like, shut up. And they're like, oh, it is. Because I didn't know. So then I just had my lawyer get my. Get my license, and that place was born. That's how I did it.
[05:20]
A
Wow.
[05:20]
C
It was a mistake.
[05:21]
A
And then I was. Because you sold Cliffside. And then what made you get back into treatment? Because you could have just.
[05:29]
C
Yeah.
[05:30]
A
Was it out of, like, boredom?
[05:33]
C
No, I wasn't really bored, but I didn't have the purpose that I should have. Right. Well, first of all, I Missed my friends. I missed all of my friends, and I left them all behind. Okay. Because that's what you do when somebody buys your business.
[05:49]
A
Right.
[05:50]
C
They're not buying your business.
[05:51]
A
They're buying the people, all the relationships, everything.
[05:54]
C
That's right. If you're one of the best in the world at giving people back their loved ones and you don't do it, you're a dick. You're just a dick. So I had to do it. People are dying all over the place. That's what this thing's for. I've never seen a podcast. I've never listened to a podcast. I don't even know if I'm any good at it. I have no clue. All I'm doing is creating awareness around the fentanyl issue and letting people know that we're out of time. And at the slightest hint now of an issue, kids got to go to treatment. That's it.
[06:27]
A
Yeah.
[06:28]
C
Otherwise you're burying your kid. So that's why I'm doing this. But that's also why I came back. But I really missed my friends, you know, I really missed my friends.
[06:37]
A
Yeah. I took off a few years and just was, like, traveling and thinking that that was gonna set me up to, like, have this. And at first, it's amazing because you're like, wow. I mean, all these strangers and spiritually like, oh, this is. This is life. And then after a while, you're like, where's my purpose? Like, what am I doing? I'm.
[06:56]
C
That's right.
[06:57]
A
I'm not fulfilled. I'm a little running on empty. And so I'm with you that it's always good to kind of dig into a project or something to, like, you know, get back and feel connected, especially.
[07:12]
C
If you're good at this, because so many people aren't, and there are so many bad actors in our business. Right. So if you're one of the good ones and you can actually, like, help people and you don't do it.
[07:28]
A
At the peak, how many treatment centers were there in Malibu, do you think? At the peak of 26. 26 treatments, yeah.
[07:34]
C
And we were the last one, so we were. When I got into it, there were 26. 24, 26. And I remember.
[07:41]
A
Do you remember Renaissance?
[07:42]
C
Of course.
[07:42]
A
That house. Like, what the hell was that?
[07:45]
C
That was. Well, it was impressive.
[07:48]
A
It was an impressive house.
[07:49]
C
It was an impressive house. But they did. But nobody knew who they were, and they were mismanaged and they went away. But when I got here, there were 24 of them, and it was Promises, and then all the way down. But Promises was number one.
[08:02]
A
Yeah.
[08:03]
C
And then I think Summit had just opened. Seasons was opening at the same time. I was right. And. And I would just. You know, I was at the bottom, and I would just take my marker every time I passed somebody up, and I would just cross people off the list until. All right, let's. Let me ask you some questions. All right?
[08:33]
A
All right.
[08:33]
C
How'd you get sober?
[08:37]
A
I. Give me the.
[08:39]
C
Give me the. Give me the. Drunk a log first. Give me the greatest hits.
[08:43]
A
The greatest hits. No, I was living in New York. I was bartending a place called the Roxy, which is a big nightclub. Dropped out of school, and up until that point, I had never done crystal meth. So the thing is, if you drink. If you just drink, usually it takes 20 to 25 years before you really. Unless you're just so severe. So when you do harder drugs, as you know, it's like, it expedites your bottom. And so.
[09:16]
C
Especially meth.
[09:17]
A
Especially meth. And so the thing for me is I always had this, like, desire, like, be better. Do better. And I. I couldn't stop using it. So, like, I'd throw it away. I would buy it. A week later, I'd throw it away again. I'd go to a harm reduction group. I, like, have a therapist come into my house and my. In my apartment that my dad sent me. Like, I didn't even know. The thing is, until, like, you get good treatment, you don't even understand sobriety. I ended up going through Hazelden and became an alcohol and drug abuse counselor. And then I did interventions for this company called the Air. It was a big intervention company back in the day, and they needed someone to open their west coast office. So I moved in with my mom in Orange County. I borrowed my suits from my dad. And then after about a year and a half, I had a lot of clients. I've always been, like, hungry, similar to you.
[10:07]
C
Hold on one second. That's the greatest thing. You moved back home with your mother, and you wore your dad's suits. How old were you?
[10:14]
A
24.
[10:15]
C
Wow.
[10:15]
A
Yeah. And. And then I positioned myself as, like, the guy you want to intervene on your son or daughter, who's in their 20s. So you had these guys, Earl Hightower, you had John Southworth. You had these interventionists. And I was like, yeah, you could go with them, or you can go with me. I'm a little more relatable.
[10:34]
C
That's right.
[10:34]
A
And I'm gonna be half the price. I have a bit of A dysfunctional relationship with my family and my parents and such. And after Friday I fly to Portland to see my mom who I haven't seen in several years. So I'm going to see my sponsor who lives in LA on Thursday. I need wisdom from someone who knows me of how to navigate this relationship because I'm going to be with my mother for two days. Who's. And there's a very long history with her. So I want to show up as the best version of myself. And sometimes in situations we don't know, like am I supposed to show up just being other centered? Am I supposed to spend all my time with her? Am I supposed to like all these things? My head just starts going on and so having a sponsor that I can be like, tell me how to be like how I should show up.
[11:29]
C
Did he tell you to show up with the heart of a servant and that there was nothing to get only to give.
[11:35]
A
I meet with them Thursday. Such a dramatic.
[11:40]
C
Just, just, just be, just, just be of service to this woman. It's going to be two days. You can do anything for.
[11:47]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I'm intentionally going there to see her and then I fly to see my dad. I'm doing kind of the family joint with the whole.
[11:53]
C
The heart of a servant.
[11:54]
A
Yeah.
[11:55]
C
Joyfully.
[11:56]
A
I wrote a few books. Right, right.
[11:57]
C
And which I, which, which by the way, I'm going to order right after this because in doing my research on you beforehand. Look at this.
[12:05]
B
Huh?
[12:06]
C
Right? You're big shot.
[12:08]
A
Okay.
[12:08]
C
No, you are. And look, if you weren't, I tell you, okay, you're a big shot in this industry. You've been in it for 20 years. You've helped a lot of people. I know who the you are. Okay, so.
[12:20]
A
So my third book. So thank you. So the first two, they made New York Times bestsellers, which is like the best one in every 10,000 books. That's right. That's what Chatgpt told me. So it's. And I feel like, I mean it all is timing and, and I was on a TV show for four years.
[12:34]
C
But what TV show?
[12:35]
A
Dr. Phil Every other week for four years. So I want to talk to you about that. I love Dr. Phil. Yeah, I was on. I changed. He would share the dressing room. He was my mentor for few years. Writing a book is a very tedious thing. It's like it. Have you written a book?
[12:52]
C
Yeah, I wrote a book with my addiction research fellow called Ending Addiction for Good and I've got a new one out called Transcendence. Yeah. It's about, you know, thriving. If I had to put a caption to it, it would be, sobriety isn't its own gift.
[13:10]
A
Sobriety isn't its own gift.
[13:12]
C
That's right. It isn't. Thriving is. Is a gift of sobriety. Okay? Living a life that you can be proud of is a gift of sobriety, but being sober is not a gift. I didn't let you get through the. The monologue.
[13:29]
A
Oh. So then I went to treatment live with my mom, did interventions. And then I started casting in my apartment in Venice with, like, free groups. And then I met this guy who did this sober companion gig for me. His name is Jose Hernandez. Do you know Jose?
[13:51]
C
Everybody knows Jose Hernandez.
[13:53]
A
So Jose, he was my first sober companion. And then. Crazy case, crazy Russian. The guy was a.
[14:02]
C
He didn't drink vodka, did he?
[14:04]
A
No. But there's a gay Russian who had a hooker who was straight, and they were in a relationship, and the hooker was male. Male. Both. And so it was the craziest dynamic. And Jose was incredible. And then. I mean, I'm now in my third office. I've been here for 12 years. The one before that had no windows. The one before that was just so ghetto. But somehow I managed to. To do this thing, you know, it's. It's like. And then, you know, I started working. My thing is I ended up in the entertainment space. So it went from doing interventions, you know, with, like, people in crises, to then doing crises work. So public affairs, bands breaking up. So I ended up going much more into the crisis management, crisis coaching world, which I liked because it got me out of working with treatment centers, right? And then I threw a charity event, and that's when I met Dr. Phil. And then Dr. Phil said, do you want to go on a show tomorrow? This is a crazy story. So he says to me, do you want to go on a show tomorrow? I said, sure. I went on the show. Like, no freaking idea what I was doing. Like, never had on my vision board to do television or anything. And then he was like, you were pretty good. And then they put me on another episode two days later. And then he sat me in his office, and he goes, you know what you need? I said, well. He goes, you need a New York Times bestseller. I said, okay. He goes, what are you doing today? I'm like, I'm at home. He's like, hop on my jet. Let's go meet your agent. Flew me to Dallas. This is all true. Met my agent. I didn't even really have Instagram or Anything at the time got me a huge deal. Book advance. And then the book just crushed it in 23 languages.
[16:06]
C
He went ahead and pumped it on his show.
[16:09]
A
Pumped. Not just sold, pumped it. Pumped it. I'm talking, had the book out of him saying, turn to page 36 where you talk about such and such.
[16:19]
C
Shut.
[16:19]
A
He promoted. He promoted the book so heavy that it just kept selling. I mean, I've sold half a million copies of a book. Books are impulse buys.
[16:29]
C
I think I. I think I sold 50 copies.
[16:32]
A
It's hard.
[16:32]
C
I don't know how.
[16:33]
A
No, but it's really hard to sell books because you got to figure out how to get through the market. And so. And then it was like he. He wrote the foreword, and then Jennifer Lopez gave me the endorsement on the back of the book. And so it just kind of. And then I had other entertainers support it. So.
[16:52]
C
That's amazing.
[16:53]
A
Yeah, it was good.
[16:53]
C
That's amazing.
[16:55]
A
But what was interesting is the more I did television, so I was on, I did probably 40 episodes. And like, it was interesting because the less treatment centers, like, fuck with me. Like, it was like I was. You would have thought they would want someone out in media who does interventions or addiction who's like. And I found that, like, people were like, not that loving and accepting of me in the industry when I started going and doing television. That's just.
[17:23]
C
They're jealous.
[17:24]
A
But it was so weird.
[17:25]
C
Like, it's not because they didn't have the stones to show up. See, you lucked into it, but you showed up 40 times and then you hit it out. Then you hit a rope. Okay. And. And you know, you made it.
[17:41]
A
Yeah.
[17:42]
C
Okay. You know, nobody does that. Nobody shows up and then executes.
[17:50]
A
Yeah. Every time I showed up on an episode, it was like a job interview. That's right. I knew that if I didn't deliver, you're gone. I remember one time I sat down with them because they send you a hundred page document before about the guest who's on the show. And I was in his dressing room and he's getting his hair done, which is literally he's bald, so it's not much hair to do. And I remember he said to me, he goes, there was a guy on the show who hadn't left his house in a long time, had long shaggy hair. And he asked me what we should do. I'm like, well, I think we should do such and such. He's like, that's all you got?
[18:21]
C
Who said that?
[18:22]
A
Dr. Phil. That's all you got, huh? And you said, it's the number one television show on daytime tv. That's all you got? And so I said, well, what if we cut his hair on stage? He's like, that's it. The barber comes out on stage and like to help him with a reinvention. But like, that's how it felt every time. I mean, it was good because it forced me to keep raising my bar. You know, you can't coast with him. He's. He's gnarly. Like, he's, he's got like. I mean, I don't even know who or who doesn't have photographic memories, but he does not forget anything.
[18:54]
C
Right.
[18:54]
A
And he just kind of like looks over at you and you're just, you know. So now I'm. I sent you the sizzle for my next show that I'm working on so that that show hopefully will happen. It'll be like my own, which would be really exciting for me.
[19:07]
C
Good.
[19:07]
A
If it hits.
[19:08]
C
So why'd you get sober?
[19:11]
A
Pain, self esteem issues? I had a very difficult time being gay. Like, you're gay? Yeah.
[19:19]
C
Oh, you gotta leave.
[19:20]
A
Yeah, I know that's upsetting. I know. That's not why I did drugs. But it was definitely. When you go out in the gay world, there's so many drugs.
[19:28]
C
Like, what's the hardest truth about yourself that you've had to face?
[19:33]
A
The hardest truth about myself that I've had to face? Oh, God.
[19:51]
C
No filter. This is all real. Give it to me.
[19:53]
A
No, I get it. The hardest truth about me that I've had to face. I would say it was. I relapsed after 19 years.
[20:06]
D
Wow.
[20:06]
A
On a medication, writing my second book by a doctor who kept pushing me to take a drug called Focalin. It's Adderall and Ritalin and basically I abused it, so I took it.
[20:19]
C
Well, of course you did. It's your drug of choice.
[20:20]
A
I know, I know. You know those people in your life that you like them, they show up and then you feel like you may be over shared and you're like, I shouldn't have said certain. Maybe you don't have that because you have no filter. But sometimes there's people in our lives that I feel like they don't deserve to get certain knowledge.
[20:39]
C
Right.
[20:39]
A
And when we share can become gossip or they can twist it and afterwards you're like, fuck, I shouldn't have said that. That's one of those types of people. So it's exceedingly difficult because I had. My next book is going to be about relapse now three and a half years. But it was really difficult because.
[20:57]
C
How much time you got now?
[20:58]
A
Three and a half.
[20:59]
C
Let me ask you a question. How long were you abusing that meth? No. Oh, the medicine that the doctor gave you.
[21:08]
A
Probably about eight months.
[21:11]
C
Did you create any wreckage?
[21:14]
A
Little bit. Not horrible.
[21:18]
C
As a result of the drugs like you can be.
[21:20]
A
No. Psychologically it. I was twacked for like the first.
[21:24]
C
Don't care about. Yeah, I care about the wreckage. Did you create any wreckage that you have had to. In that. In that eight months that you have that you've had to deal with still for the next three and a half years or any part of it because you were loaded and you up?
[21:41]
A
No.
[21:41]
C
Okay.
[21:42]
A
No, it's more a. Like people say time doesn't matter and it's one day at a time. And it sounds good on theory, but we celebrate birthdays, we hug at one day at a time. Some bitches are saying their sobriety date when it's. I've been sober 1,300, you know, and.
[22:00]
C
Yeah, I hate that.
[22:01]
A
And so I was going to meetings here and like in these meetings they would go around the room and everyone would say their clean time. I don't believe that's actually about the newcomer. I believe that's about some of these people with long term sobriety to see like I have this.
[22:14]
C
Well, of course it is because the newcomer can't even imagine a week.
[22:18]
A
I know. So. So then I had. My company was trying to get cast, was trying to give me a 20 year cake. I didn't have 20 years. I was like, I had clients with more time than me because I abused it. So it's all fine now. But that was a fucking horrible psychological.
[22:36]
C
How'd you stop?
[22:40]
A
I was so. I had an ex boyfriend who lived in Brazil. I think that was part of the wreckage is I had the grand idea that I should be with a guy who lives in Hasifi, Brazil, which is about 30 hours from LA. And so we. So my judgment was a little lacking.
[22:54]
C
Okay, that's the only mistake you made.
[22:58]
A
I now like I sponsor a lot of guys who have long term sobriety. Like I love working with people at long term and went out because there.
[23:03]
C
Is all that you relapse.
[23:06]
A
Oh yeah. My next book is going to be about relapse and or reinvention or something along those lines. And yeah, it's. It's a crazy thing that I didn't understand before. When you relapse after a long term recovery. I didn't I did not get why you can't just, like, get back on it and everything's.
[23:30]
C
But you did. You did get back on.
[23:33]
A
Was a messy, messy road.
[23:35]
C
Fine.
[23:35]
A
But. Yeah. Yeah. But it was tougher than I would have ever.
[23:37]
C
Sure, sure.
[23:38]
A
How much time do you have?
[23:39]
C
But the. But hold on a second. But the fact that you had 19 years, you know, the be. I always tell people the best medically assisted treatment is top notch care. Top notch treatment. Right. Because you can't unring a bell. And you had, you know, you were locked in for 19 years.
[24:04]
A
19.
[24:04]
C
Okay.
[24:05]
A
So you.
[24:06]
C
Your run. It's shocking to me that your rock. That your run lasted that long, but it's still only eight months. And you created no wreckage. None. And now you have even a deeper understanding.
[24:20]
A
Yeah.
[24:20]
C
Holistically. Of what this thing is.
[24:23]
A
Yeah.
[24:23]
C
Because we forget.
[24:25]
A
Yeah.
[24:25]
C
With 19 years, you forget.
[24:27]
A
Totally. I wrote books about it. I own a treatment center. I'm like. I'm like. And I had such brain fog. And my advance was well over seven figures for my second book, so. Right. I wanted to give the money back. And then this doctor's like, well, you have add. I'm like, yeah, I know. I've been told. No, no, you really need to be on something with me at the pharmacy. I mean, it's kind of creepy. I don't know if there's the devil on earth or not, but the whole experience, I knew better. I should have called somebody and talked to them, and instead I was looking for a quick way out. Oh.
[24:58]
C
The reason is. Is because we drink our own Kool Aid.
[25:01]
A
Yeah.
[25:01]
C
Right. We're the best. We're the man. We've done this.
[25:04]
A
You know, And I had this therapist. I remember I had this therapist at one time who was like 25 years sober. And she was on. I remember she said she takes Ritalin to help her with her. And I remember seeing. Okay, she's shown up for work for me for a few years. I know she's taking Ritalin. Maybe it's not such a big deal.
[25:24]
C
You know, sobriety sucks if you're not. If you're not thriving if you're not. If you're not happy. Forget thriving if you're not happy. Look, if you don't. If you're not as happy or as contented or if your life isn't as good sober as it is on drugs, you're going back to drugs.
[25:46]
A
Yeah, for sure.
[25:47]
C
For sure. Okay. So I wanted people to know sober isn't enough. Sober gets you all the gifts. You Want. That's the baseline. But then it's about, what are you gonna be? What are you gonna do? Right. How you gonna get there? Right. So that's that.
[26:05]
A
Yeah.
[26:06]
C
What do you think?
[26:08]
A
I think everyone's different. I don't. I haven't been a big believer in disease model, even though that's, like, such a thing. I think it. It was a good piece of pitch for insurance companies to pay because you had to make it some sort of illness in order to get an insurance company to. To do it. But I think. I mean, I think mental health in general, whether there's substances like at cast, we're like majority. I'd say about 60. Primary mental health.
[26:37]
C
Right.
[26:38]
A
And you got a mental health Iop license. Yeah.
[26:41]
C
Good.
[26:41]
A
And that's really helpful.
[26:44]
C
People call for that all the time. We can send those people right to you.
[26:47]
A
Great.
[26:48]
C
Because we don't take them.
[26:49]
A
Right. Right.
[26:51]
C
Talk to Michelle about this stuff.
[26:52]
A
Yeah. I'm gonna meet with her after this. I wanted to connect with you because I'm going. Because I'm going up there and I'd heard your name for so many years, and we'd never connected. It's kind of one of those things, like, where I was like, I should meet him. Maybe I could learn from him, you know?
[27:09]
C
Stop it.
[27:10]
A
Yeah. Really.
[27:10]
C
It's nice. It's nice that you're here. I've heard about you for years. Heard about you for years, man. You're one of the good ones. And we're not in competition.
[27:20]
A
We're not. That's why I'm here. No, I'm well aware.
[27:25]
C
You know anybody who's died? I mean, I know that's a crazy question to ask somebody in our business, but.
[27:31]
A
Yeah.
[27:31]
C
Anybody like that. That when you think about it, you get choked up.
[27:43]
A
Interesting. Such a blur. Like light. It's such a blur. Working in treatment. It's like. Because I'm trying to think of any friends have died from.
[28:06]
C
Because a ton of clients have.
[28:07]
A
Yeah.
[28:08]
C
Okay. I mean, we have. We've had two instances where someone has made an appointment to come to treatment. I hate that. I'll be there in two weeks. Here's your deposit. Save a bed. Listen to me. It's best that you come now. You're using drugs on the street. 70% of that stuff's laced with fentanyl.
[28:35]
A
Yeah.
[28:35]
C
Okay. You're not a fentanyl user. Listen to me. Come in now. Everything's okay. I promise. Hey, man, let me think about it. Two weeks goes by. Okay? He don't show up. We check parents. He died last week. That's happened to us twice.
[28:54]
A
Wow.
[28:54]
C
Already. Who believed in you before you believed in yourself?
[28:59]
A
Oh, boy. Who believes in me before? I believe himself. Well, with the TV stuff, Dr. Phil, definitely. He, like, saw it. He would, like, rocket ship me.
[29:09]
C
That's great. Is he still on?
[29:12]
A
He has his own network now.
[29:13]
C
He does?
[29:14]
A
Yeah.
[29:14]
C
The Dr. Phil network.
[29:15]
A
No, it's called. He had a network called Merit, then he phased out of that, and it's called Envoy, I think. But, yeah, they just. I don't. I don't understand how.
[29:27]
C
Does he have a show?
[29:28]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
[29:30]
C
Does he have a podcast?
[29:31]
A
He does.
[29:32]
C
He's got a podcast, too.
[29:33]
A
Yeah. It does really well. A ton.
[29:35]
C
Dude, he's such a beast. It's crazy.
[29:39]
A
Yeah, he's got a lot.
[29:40]
C
I. I mean, when. When I.
[29:42]
A
Especially when it was just TV was the only thing. It was. TV was the only 19 million people watching.
[29:47]
C
Yeah. That's crazy.
[29:48]
A
But I would see the other person believes me. I do jiu jitsu four days a week.
[29:52]
C
Good.
[29:52]
A
My professor saw me yesterday. It's another person in my life.
[29:55]
C
Good.
[29:56]
A
Compete.
[29:57]
C
Good.
[29:57]
A
Yeah.
[29:58]
C
That's important.
[29:59]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
[30:00]
C
Gives you discipline. I told my kids to do that.
[30:03]
A
They should.
[30:04]
C
They didn't. They didn't. They didn't do that. They played the instruments and they speak Spanish. Okay. But I didn't get the washer.
[30:13]
A
I love some.
[30:13]
C
I got two out of three.
[30:15]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Those are good ones.
[30:16]
C
Those are the only three I asked for. By the way, how do you stay humble when everyone around you calls you coach?
[30:23]
A
Well, I didn't go by Coach Mike until I went on Dr. Phil, and then they labeled me Coach Mike. I still cringe a little bit if people utilize that. I don't know. I feel like we all have, like, gifts in life. This is my belief. We're all artists of some sort. And some people can't seem to tap into their art. Maybe they grew up in a family where their dad pressured them to go be an attorney, and they really would have been an amazing teacher or something.
[30:58]
C
I like their father.
[31:01]
A
So I think that we all have these gifts in life and that when we lean into them. And one of those things that I find that I'm able to help people do is to free themselves, to be authentic. I feel like I have a gift at. When I'm really sitting down with someone and we have chemistry in the dynamic, I can really get someone out of their mental chaos and get them into their truth. And that's when I feel Like, I'm like a coach, but at the same time, I have plenty of issues in my life, and I don't think. I think it's because I don't think I'm better than people. So I.
[31:42]
C
You don't?
[31:43]
A
No, I don't.
[31:44]
C
Real.
[31:44]
A
Truthfully. Truthfully, you don't think you're better than anyone? No. No, I think. I think me neither. No, but I. Because. Because, like. Okay, better than. I'm not that organized. There's someone who's better than me at being organized or someone better at me than showing up on time. There's someone better at me at planning this. There's someone better than me at cooking. There's someone better than me at understanding medication. Like, what does better even fucking mean? Like. Like, I. I think that.
[32:14]
C
Well, for me, better is better.
[32:16]
A
I came up with this term when I started doing TV that people have selective kindness, that people will say, oh, my God, they're such an amazing person. Because, you know, you interact with so many people. But I found that a lot of these people just select where they put their kindness, that they're really not.
[32:33]
C
They're really not kind. They're. They're kind in. In spurts.
[32:37]
A
In spurts. When it happens to be a dynamic. Because, you know, in tv, you're only.
[32:41]
C
Kind to people when you have something.
[32:43]
A
To gain or if you. Yeah. Whether you want to be liked more, respected more, or whatever. And it's just. That was kind of hard for me in the TV world of it all, because it was. It was. It's very much that in tv.
[32:56]
C
Okay. What does freedom mean to you today? Great question.
[33:01]
A
Being in the moment. Freedom means being in the moment. Freedom is connecting with who I want to connect with, when I want to connect with. Freedom is a good night's sleep. Freedom is love.
[33:17]
C
That's a much better answer than I would have given.
[33:20]
A
It's the truth, though, right? Like, not for me. Love isn't.
[33:23]
C
Not for me. Well, of course. Love is the baseline for everything.
[33:26]
A
Yeah.
[33:27]
C
It's basically, you know, that's my. My whole place is the baseline of love. I call it a love call. Right. I mean, that's what we do. That's what I hang my hat on. That's my brand for treatment. But for me, freedom is the ability to do whatever you want with your time. That is my definition of freedom.
[33:55]
A
Yeah.
[33:56]
C
And I've been so poor that I couldn't pay attention. I mean, I've been homeless. Right. That ain't freedom. Right. Freedom isn't going to the Market and not being able to write a check for eggs or bread because you've got 800 bad checks and check systems. Freedom isn't walking into the market and buying six fake top ramen for a dollar rather than five real top ramen for a dollar, because you get another top ramen. Okay. That ain't freedom.
[34:33]
A
Right.
[34:33]
C
Okay. Now, during my days, I can literally sit and think. I can have a friend come to the house. Okay. Who just wanted to shoot the. And talk and hold him hostage for two hours in a. In a. In a podcast.
[34:50]
A
Right?
[34:51]
C
Right. I mean, my days are mine. What do you want to be remembered for? The business or the lives changed? That's kind of stupid.
[35:02]
A
That's easy.
[35:03]
C
Yeah. Okay. What do you want to be remembered for?
[35:07]
A
Well, I'm not a big guy on legacies.
[35:10]
C
You're not?
[35:11]
A
No. Like, I think, like, once I'm dead, I'm dead. And, like, I don't know, you see someone's brick at a hospital and you're like, oh, who is this?
[35:18]
C
Is that because you don't have kids?
[35:20]
A
No. I mean, I would rather be known just as being a good person who help people. That's it. Like, oh, Mike, Mike help people and does good. Like, I'm similar to you. I help a lot of people. And in my free time, my assistant right now is in prison for four years because I tried to help him. I got him out of. He was facing 10, but I met this guy to meet me.
[35:40]
C
You haven't. You had an assistant that's doing time?
[35:44]
A
Yeah, in South Carolina right now. He got caught with three pounds of meth. So I met him in a meeting, and then I tried to help him, and then I, like, gave him a job, you know? Like, I did everything. It was like this most lovable guy. I. I made a decision, too. Like, I don't raise my hand to sponsor at all anymore. I choose my sponsors. Yeah. Like, I did not like sponsoring people when I used to raise my hand. I just didn't have that, like, experience. But then when I see someone that I kind of am, like, oh, he's in the corner with a court card, and I know I can help him turn his life around. And, like, so I love doing stuff like that. Right. Like, unexpected, surprised generosity in my personal life, in business. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe one day cast on ourselves. I don't know. You know, it's like someone else picks it up, you know?
[36:31]
C
Thanks for coming by, Richard.
[36:32]
A
Thanks for having me.
[36:33]
C
No, I really appreciate it.
[36:35]
A
See you next Tuesday.
[36:36]
D
He said it we're out of time. Please subscribe on YouTube, click the thumbs up and leave a comment. Please subscribe on Apple Podcast and Spotify and leave a rating and a review and share the we're out of time podcast with others. You know who will get value out of it. See you next Tuesday.