Teen Drug Crisis Explained with Dr. Katie Held & John Lieberman: Fentanyl, Vaping & Recovery

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: We're Out of Time

Episode: Teen Drug Crisis Explained with Dr. Katie Held & John Lieberman: Fentanyl, Vaping & Recovery

Host: Richard Taite

Date: December 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode pulls back the curtain on the escalating teen drug crisis in America, focusing on real-world insights from the front lines. Host Richard Taite speaks with Dr. Katie Held (Chief Clinical Officer) and John Lieberman (CEO) from Visions Teen Center, delving into the dangers of fentanyl, high-potency THC, vaping, mental health, and the crucial role of family involvement in recovery. The conversation is raw, practical, and driven by the urgency to save young lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Current Trends in Teen Substance Use

• Substances in Treatment: Teens are using a wider and more potent array of substances than previous generations, including high-potency marijuana, vape products, alcohol, cocaine, counterfeit pills, and sometimes unknowingly ingesting dangerous substances.
  “Anything and everything we’re seeing today...” (Dr. Held, 01:46)

• Rise in THC Potency:

  • Street-level cannabis and vape concentrates now contain up to 50–90% THC; kids as young as 13 are experiencing psychosis (03:15).
  • Teens are not getting marijuana from dispensaries but from social media and friends, increasing their exposure to contamination and higher risks (05:10).

2. Access and Normalization

• Accessibility & Glamorization:
  “With legalization, with more access, with glamorization, we’re seeing a lot of increase.” (Dr. Held, 02:03)
• Vaping Epidemic:
  Vaping has become nearly ubiquitous, starting in preteens, with risks made worse by easy concealment, round-the-clock use, and the danger of contaminated cartridges (07:36–09:15).
• Counterfeit Pills:
  Kids buying substances via TikTok/Instagram face added risks of fentanyl contamination and sexual exploitation (09:22).

3. The Dangers Beyond Drugs

• Sexual Exploitation & Trafficking:
  Multiple stories of girls from affluent backgrounds getting trafficked during attempts to obtain drugs.

  • “We’ve had…about five teenage girls…who got involved and were trafficked.” (Dr. Held, 10:07)
  • “...this is just the way it is. Which is sad.” (John Lieberman, 10:40)

• Parent Perspective:
  Many parents are blindsided, calling for help in moments of crisis, often for the first time, their voices wracked with both pain and mistrust (11:51).

4. Mental Health & Co-occurring Disorders

• Almost All Cases Co-Occur with Mental Health Issues:
  • “Every single time.” (Dr. Held, 41:30)
• Severe Anxiety & Depression:
  Almost universal among teens entering treatment; substance use often starts as self-medication for underlying anxiety (06:33, 22:21).
• Failure to Address Underlying Issues:
  If families and providers don’t address mental health and trauma, relapse is nearly inevitable (36:20).

5. Parental Responsibility & Family Involvement

• Responsibility & Accountability:
  • “If you don’t accept responsibility, you’re in a victim position. If you accept responsibility, you’re in a powerful position. And now you can change it.” (Richard Taite, 23:50)
• Family Participation as Rule-Out:
  Visions does not accept clients if parents won’t participate (20:26–20:41).
• Therapy & Repair:
  Building healthy repair processes in the family is key.
  • “Repair goes back to…when they can repair with a parent, a coach…that’s the foundation for their lives.” (John Lieberman, 40:49)

6. Changing Teen Psychology

• After COVID:
  • Increased social awkwardness, emotional withdrawal, “the stare”—difficulty interacting without technology, masks, or social media as a buffer (27:34–28:49).
  • Kids’ resilience is decreasing, parents are more protective, and physical play (the “benefit of a skin knee”) is declining (31:34).
  • “Parents don’t want kids to feel discomfort anymore... it’s helpful for kids to feel discomfort.” (Dr. Held, 31:07)

7. Challenges with Setting Boundaries

• Parental Boundaries:
  Parents struggle to say “no” or hold boundaries.
  • “They set a boundary, but they don’t hold the boundary…setting the boundary and not holding…is actually worse.” (Dr. Held, 45:51)
• Taking Back Authority:
  Help parents rediscover their “spine” (44:19), essential for successful family treatment.

8. Notable Successes & Heartbreaking Losses

• Stories of Death and Survival:
  • “It’s probably about twice a year that we get the call [about alumni who have died]...” (Lieberman, 15:15)
  • Story of a direct hospital transfer saving a boy’s life (17:01–17:57).
  • Importance of small victories—seeing a “sparkle” return to a child’s eyes after treatment (19:52–20:22).

9. Treating Adolescents vs Adults

• Adolescents as Hostage:
  • “They’re a hostage…because they don’t have a choice.” (Richard Taite, 41:56)
  • Faster, more significant visible changes in teens than adults (46:10).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Parent-Child Repair:
  “Repair…with a parent, a coach, a teacher, we’re setting the foundation for how they work out their lives.”
  —John Lieberman, 40:49

• On Modern Marijuana:
  “What THC is today is street drugs… 50%, 90%… 12, 13 year olds… psychosis as a result of THC.”
  —John Lieberman, 03:15

• Parent Responsibility:
  “If you don’t accept responsibility, you’re in a victim position. If you accept responsibility, you’re in a powerful position.”
  —Richard Taite, 23:54

• Family Involvement:
  “Our requirement is family involvement. It is family, family, family, family.”
  —John Lieberman, 20:42

• Hope Amid Crisis:
  “There’s absolutely hope.”
  —John Lieberman, 48:32

• The “Stare” Post-COVID:
  “Today you talk to kids, and…they’ll just do this [stares]…what is that?”
  —Richard Taite, 28:17

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:46] – What substances are most common now?
• [03:15] – THC potency and adolescent psychosis
• [05:10] – Teens buy from social media, not dispensaries
• [09:22] – Social dangers (vape dealers, sexual assault)
• [10:07] – Sex trafficking cases among teens
• [11:51] – Parental crisis and initial outreach
• [15:00] – Overdose deaths and fatal delays to treatment
• [17:01] – Harrowing hospital overdose story
• [20:26] – Family engagement as a requirement for treatment
• [22:14] – Parental presence, connection, and early intervention
• [23:50] – Responsibility as empowerment for parents
• [27:34] – Where is the mental health of teens today?
• [31:34] – The “benefit of a skin knee” and growing resilience
• [36:20] – The importance of aftercare and early intervention
• [41:30] – Co-occurring disorders: “Every single time.”
• [41:56] – Adolescents in treatment: “They’re a hostage.”
• [44:19] – Helping parents find their "spine"
• [46:10] – Visible, rapid change in adolescent recovery
• [48:32] – Final words: “There’s absolutely hope.”

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Tone & Style

• The conversation is frank, urgent, and deeply compassionate.
• The hosts and guests blend clinical expertise, personal lived experience, and no-nonsense truth-telling.
• Humor used to break tension (“I have extra spines and testicles. We can do implants here”—John Lieberman, 44:07).

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Conclusion

This episode is an unflinching yet hopeful look at the realities facing families and teens in a country overwhelmed by modern drugs, mental health crises, and shifting cultural norms. The importance of early intervention, family engagement, honest conversation, and ongoing repair is stressed repeatedly. The takeaway is clear: parents must engage, take responsibility, and seek help early—because in this crisis, “We’re out of time.”

Transcript

[A]

It is so helpful when parents get their kids into therapy, when they ask for help, because then they're teaching their kids, right? They're teaching the kids it's okay to ask for help.

[B]

This is how responsible adults deal with their stressors.

[A]

Yes. I don't have all the answers. Let's get somebody involved here to help us.

[B]

If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call one call placement. That's 888-831-1581. And if we can't help you, we'll make a referral to someone who can. One call placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment Wellness and Spa and One Method Treatment Centers. We're living through the deadliest drug crisis in American history, and it's not just adults, it's kids. My guests today are John Lieberman and Katie Held from Visions Teen center, where every single day they see what's really happening with adolescents in their system, parents terrified at home, and kids making choices that can mean life or death. Today, we're pulling back the curtain on what our teenagers are facing and what it takes to save them. John, Katie, thanks for coming.

[A]

Excited to be here.

[C]

Yeah, thanks for having us.

[B]

Oh, that's nice. It's very sweet. All right, let's dive right in, shall we? What substances are teenagers walking into treatment with most often today? Katie?

[C]

I would say anything. And everything we're seeing today, definitely, as you stated, unknowingly, they're ingesting ahead of them. Not all of them. Correct.

[B]

But some of them swear up and down that they're not using and they test positive.

[C]

Correct. Unknowingly. A lot of marijuana use escalating over the last six years? I would say sure. Nicotine, Almost all of them. A lot of alcohol. Um, cocaine use. We see a lot of drug addiction, substance use, and it's escalating. It's increasing with legalization, with just more access. I think with glamorization of drug use, we're seeing a lot of increase.

[B]

You know, I didn't tell. I didn't tell the viewers that you're the clinical director there.

[C]

Chief clinical officer.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yes, pretty much.

[B]

Okay. And what do you do there, buddy?

[A]

I'm the. I'm a CEO.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So. And I get to see things from, you know, a bird's eye view. And I still take calls from parents when they're in crisis. And it is really terrifying what's going on out there. I mean, Katie said marijuana, but THC is probably causing the initial worst impacts we're seeing with kids.

[B]

How so?

[A]

Well, because THC is so powerful in today's day and age because it's been hybrid and because of extracts and things like that, that we see kids as early as 13 years old having psychosis as a result of THC.

[B]

That's what I want to talk about because I've smoked a lot of pot in my day. Okay. And I didn't smoke a little bit of pot. Like I'm smoking an ounce of pot every day when I was smoking it. Okay. Now again, wasn't as strong as today.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. But man, I smoked so much pot from morning till night. And I smoked for at least a decade and a half. I smoked. No, from 12 to. Let's call it 30. Okay? So that's almost two decades. Like a fiend. Okay. And I never had psychosis. Okay, what, what, what is this?

[A]

Not everybody has psychosis. Not everybody reacts the same way. But if I'm going to say because I did it, it doesn't make what. So we should be asking.

[B]

No, I understand that. It's anecdotal. I get it. Okay. But, you know, I've run a treatment center too, for, you know, a long time, and some people think I'm pretty good at this. And I'm telling you, I've never seen it. So what is it?

[A]

What, what is. What it is is this really high potency, 50% THC, 90% THC that's been extracted, and you have 12, 13 year olds who have this in a vape pen that they're using during school when they get up in the morning, before they go bed at night. I would venture to say that what THC is today is street drugs. It's. It's not being. We. We don't know how much of THC is. No, it's not.

[B]

Hold on a second, hold on a second. If you're buying marijuana from a dispensary, it's not going to be laced with. It's not.

[A]

But kids aren't buying it from a dispensary.

[B]

Where are they buying it?

[A]

They're buying it from their friends. They're buying it on TikTok, they're buying it on Instagram.

[B]

They're buying that, then they're going to die. Because if you're buying anything on the street, it's got. I don't care what it is. Exactly. Or an online pharmacy.

[A]

And then they say, well, I got this pill too, I could bring you. So. Because if you're a drug dealer, right? Then your job is to sell more. And these kids will try anything and we have kids whose parents buy them the test kits to say, if you get something with fentanyl, don't take it. So they literally have that. So then the kids test for the pill and they'll say, I'm going to save that one till later, till I really want to get high. They don't see it as a risk because kids, their brains are wrapped up in. I'm going to take a risk. Right.

[C]

Also.

[B]

Also, their frontal cortex isn't fully developed, and you mix that with feeling indestructible, and that's a bad combination. I. I mean, I can't believe I'm alive.

[A]

Yeah. And the perfect word is they. With kids, they feel indestructible.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Right. So then when we come to them with logic like, don't do this, they're like, my friend did it. I did it. My friend did it. And they still got an A in school, so it must not be a problem. You guys are a bunch of liars.

[B]

Right? No, I get it, I get it.

[A]

But.

[B]

But how often are you seeing in toxicology screens on admission, like, what percentage. I know what my percentage is.

[A]

Maybe 10%.

[C]

Yeah, 10%. 10 to 15%.

[B]

Okay. We're about 40%.

[A]

So it climbs with adolescents as they find a new. So here's the thing. They, you know, like kids, they start with something. They usually have their first drink between 10 and a half to 12 years old. Then they try pot, then they try this. And then they find something that works. You know, kind of for, let's say they're. They have anxiety. What kid in junior high school doesn't have some anxiety? Just all of them. So it's a setup. It's a setup for that frontal cortex to say this works. This works because the brain's just trying to figure out how to get through life.

[B]

Have you had any cases yet where kids showed up positive for tranq Xylazine?

[C]

No.

[A]

No.

[C]

No.

[B]

Okay, well, that's. That's coming. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. You know what that is, right?

[A]

We do.

[B]

Okay. It's the flesh eating drug. Okay. All right. Yeah. It's a zombie flesh eating drug coming to a suburb near you. All right. What trends are you seeing with vaping counterfeit pills and street Xanax and really pressed perks?

[C]

I mean, I think vaping is just a complete epidemic for our kids. You know, it's starting. I mean, in general, I think our kids are coming in earlier and earlier.

[B]

Okay, but hold on a second. That's smoking. Every bad kid smoked, every rebellious kid in High school, smoked when I was a kid, sure. Okay. The vapes are more dangerous because of the popcorn lung.

[C]

And every kid smoked cigarettes, but they didn't smoke cigarettes in their room, you know, 12 hours a day.

[B]

Right, right. That's true. Yeah, that's true, too. And if you get. And, And I've heard, and I've heard this from a talk by the Florida attorney general, and she said that you're getting vape, you're getting in vapes now.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

So that's the crossover we're talking about. They all. So you have. Our kids virtually are all vaping. So then all it takes is a different cartridge, a different thing to have all in it, to have whatever chemical, anything.

[B]

And you're going to get that on the street. You're going to get that, that thing on the street.

[A]

Well, I was talking to a kid one day and he was out for a walk with his counselor and he found what they call a cartridge for vapes. Right. He found one on the ground, snuck it in his pocket to bring it in. I said, what are you doing? What's going on there? That you, you're in a treatment center, you see a cart on the ground and you pick it up and put it in your pocket. He said, and I quote, because any day you find a cart, a good day, in his mind, he's just like, oof.

[B]

That just sounds that one of his friends said that thought was cool and just parroted it to you. He doesn't even know.

[C]

But, I mean, there's so much danger attached to the idea of just getting a vape. Like, I have so many teen girls starting as young as 13. Right. Like buying, Buying vapes from drug dealers, vape dealers. Getting into the back of a car with an older man drug dealer. I had one who got sexually assaulted, one who got, you know, taken around the corner, got away, but was almost sexually assaulted. Right. So it's not just about the dangers. No substances.

[B]

Do you know any of that? Have you guys. This is really critical and I'm getting involved in this now. The sex trafficking, you guys have experience with that?

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

Tell me about it.

[C]

I mean, we've had. I think I can think just on. Off, off the top of my head about five teenage girls who we've had. And, and just thinking, just off the top of my head, right. Who got involved and were trafficked.

[B]

And these are all girls under 18.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah. And families that they're not. They're coming from, quote, unquote, good neighborhoods.

[C]

Right. Like high resource families.

[A]

Yes. High resource families.

[B]

Well, of course, they're all high resource families where you are concerned.

[A]

We see a higher number in the programs like our Arrowhouse program. It's, it's higher numbers where kids just have found. It's. It becomes their avenue for more free. Free access to drugs. And they think this is just the way it is. This is just the way it is. Which is sad. And they'll say that, they'll say. When we say to them, so you awoled, you found some guys, you said that you were sexually involved with them. We need to make a report. And the girl says, no, that's what you do if you want to get drugs. No, that's what you do. And she's 15 years old. Her friend that went with her overdosed in the Carl's Jr. Bathroom and they had to break down the door. So. And this happened within just about 24 hours of being. Not having any drugs.

[B]

I can't, I cannot imagine what a parent goes through when his truck, when.

[C]

It, when his child. And we work with the families, like around this. Right. I mean, it is devastating.

[B]

So I have. When I'm treating somebody and I've got someone who's a young adult, the parents are out of their minds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. I can only imagine how much worse it is for you guys.

[A]

A lot of times for us that the person who calls when you pick up the phone the first time with a parent, it's a lot of times, their first time they've reached out for help. The pain in their voice, the frustration, the mistrust. Because we live in a world of mistrust. So how they know they could trust us or anybody for that matter?

[B]

Well, let me just say that at Visions is the only place that I would ever refer. And you guys aren't paying me for this. I don't even have sponsors. Can you imagine? Sponsored by. No, thanks. Yeah, okay. And we get called all the time for that stuff and just said, no every time. If Narcan calls, we'll do Narcan calls. We'll do Vivitrol. Yeah, okay.

[A]

And parents come in with, well, what if it's not just drugs? And my answer is, it's never just drugs. The kids are dealing with their social issues, emotional issues. Some kids who have, you see, we find kids with anxiety disorders and things or just high anxiety underneath the surface that is just ramped up. Because if I went into a room, if you were there, and I asked a hundred adults, how many of you smoked Potter? However many answers, you know, raised 75, 75%. And then I asked those same parents, how many of you quit smoking pot because you got kind of paranoid? It's about half. It's about half the number. So you're a little different. Didn't do the same thing for you. But paranoia is a symptom of.

[B]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It did happen to me. Okay. It's just. I'd rather push through that. Okay. And not have to deal with the life I was dealing with. Right. And feel accepted for the first time ever.

[A]

And I think from. From my point of view, I'm passionate about this. I got sober at 17.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So 1985.

[B]

And how long have you been a rabbi? Sorry.

[A]

I'm sorry. That's all right. I've been working, but I've been working in the field when I had 103 days sober. So I got hired to work in an adolescent program at 103 days sober. So for 40 years. Kids, kids, kids, kids, right? You know, and families and working to get. Working.

[B]

That's why you guys are here, because this is why I came back. I came back because, you know, you're going to think this is insane. I felt like if I didn't do this podcast, then I was going to be punished.

[A]

We got to scream it from. Scream it from the rooftops. And podcast is screaming it from the rooftops today.

[B]

And. And I got lucky, you know, we just passed 100,000 subscribers. So thank you. Keep the messages coming because I answer all of them. Okay. The stupid ones I have Dylan answer, okay. But anytime you're in crisis, I answer, okay? And I'm always available for that. All right, let's do this. How many of your alumni have died of overdoses? Get the CEO hat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because it happens every day.

[A]

It absolutely happens. And, you know, we get the call from a parent.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Who says, you know, Johnny just died.

[B]

Or.

[A]

And. And kids will also use as to support a suicide. Right.

[B]

They'll.

[A]

They'll find. They'll find the drugs to do that. I don't have an exact number, but we get calls. It. It's probably about twice a year that we get the call.

[B]

How many times? This used to happen to me all the time, where people make an appointment to come into treatment. Like, they'll schedule it on three weeks out, and then they die during those three weeks. Does that ever happen to you?

[A]

We've had kids who've. The answer is probably those parents may not ever call us, but we absolutely have the cases Where a parent says, let's plan this in three weeks. They call me three days later, and they say they're on a 5150 hold because they either had an overdose.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or they had tried to kill themselves. Or maybe we've had some, they ran away, can't find them.

[B]

Has anyone ever themselves in visions?

[A]

No.

[C]

No.

[B]

Has anyone ever died in visions?

[A]

No.

[B]

Do you know how rare that is?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yes. It takes a lot of supervision, a lot of time. You got to have enough staff, and you have. You had to have protocols. And look, something could still happen. It only takes a few minutes if somebody really is serious.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So.

[B]

So no, we're lucky. We're not cocky.

[A]

No, lucky. No, We're. It's the. It's the. The fear and terror because we're. We tell parents we're here to take care of your child.

[B]

And if something got. Oh, my God.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Right?

[B]

It's, like, too much. Right.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Okay, Move on. All right, what's the scariest story you've seen firsthand about the dangers of today's street drugs, either one of you?

[A]

Well, this. This goes to the family. How the family's hurt and angst and terror and not understanding how serious this is. So we had a dad. He wrote us a letter, and he said, thank God you were there for me. They called from the hospital while their son was in convulsions from. And benzodiazepines, which were mixed together. He was frothing at the mouth, shook out of the gurney. This dad's telling us the whole story. And he said, thank God you were there for me. We were able to get him into treatment because you guys answered. So right from the hospital, a direct transfer to the center. It's a week later when he writes this, and he says to me, well, he writes in there, we've really got to get his school on track. And the poor dad doesn't know what to hold on to because the pain of losing his son is so great.

[B]

So then he deflects it, and now he's talking about school.

[A]

Yes. And I want to. And I want to be sensitive. You don't want to say.

[B]

You don't just look at them and say, dude, your kid just almost died.

[C]

I mean, sometimes, yes, we do.

[A]

Sometimes it's absolutely that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I make them say it out loud three times and then tell them and then ask him how stupid that sounded. No, I'm not kidding. Yeah.

[A]

And at the same time, we don't want to say that, because that happened that they shouldn't, you know, focus on school and things like that helps repair how the brain works and a lot of things. But if we don't focus on the basics of their relationship, their relationships and their recovery and the road that got them there. I know we're missing it.

[C]

Well, right. If your kid's not alive, they're not going to have a school to go to. They're not going to have a child.

[B]

These kids, you know, they don't know anything and they've got to be taught. And then they're so dug in to, oh, well, it's the school. No, babe, it ain't the school. You're going to lose a semester. Okay. And that's the way it is now. You guys keep up with their schoolwork at your place, right? So they can do all that stuff there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. It's not an and or no.

[C]

I think it's just tough. It's managing the parents expectations. It's like locking into like the parents are just terrified.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think they're coming from this place of managing what other people think about them. The stigma of their child treatment. Right.

[B]

I don't have an ear for it.

[C]

I, I, I know, I write. I know. But it's like, how can you access that and then redirect them to we have to do this with your child.

[B]

You let them know. Well, I always have them close their eyes and I take them through something real quick that gets them insane. Okay. And just, they fall apart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I get them into a state of reasonableness.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

One of the pla, one of the ways that that happens for adolescents is having those kids and families in treatment long enough so that when parents show up, they see that little sparkle, that glimmer in their child's eye. If it's the rambunctiousness a little, the defiance, that isn't evil, that isn't about hurting themselves. It's about being a kid. And the parent sees that and they will invest anything in the continued success as they should.

[B]

Because it's your child.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Unbelievable.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Unbelievable.

[C]

Yep. And all the families that are with us, I mean our, our main rule out is parent engagement. If parents are not willing to do groups to come out, what do you do? We don't take them.

[B]

Oh, you don't take the kids.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Our requirement is family involvement. Because everybody wants to know what's your rule out? Is it psychosis? Is it this? Is it that? And our number one is you have parent involvement. We, we know that it is family, family, family, family. And so that's on one side, the other side from, you know, kind of terrifying from a parent being terrified is. So I was in group one day and I asked, so how are you doing today? And the mom says to me, I just hear the sirens. I just keep hearing the sirens every time I close my eyes. Because she was holding her son who had just overdosed and she'd called 911 and all she could hear in the background was the sirens. And can they get here fast enough? Can they get here fast enough to save my son? And what that does for a parent is just crushing, you know, because then they feel like it's their fault. And the next question I asked the.

[B]

Group is, it is. Yes, it is. Let me tell you something. We have the kids. They don't have us. They didn't ask to be here. If something bad happens to my children, it's my fault. You got to be present. You know this. If you do the work from the gate, okay, you don't have your phone, you're down on their level, you're connecting. They go, right? They know what they're saying, but they can't get it out. So you go, wow, you're making these kids feel important. So that way when they're older, you can have the conversation because you've done the work.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

If you haven't done the work, you're gonna. The conversation falls on deaf ears.

[A]

And I think this is where we look at things, where we're seeing kids with significant depression, struggling with anxiety and essay levels. Sure.

[B]

Okay. Because that's gonna. That's. That's a controversial statement that I just made. And I'm going to double down.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Just because it's your fault doesn't mean you can't repair this thing.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Okay. But if you don't accept responsibility for your child's failures, okay. Or failings. Okay. Or struggles, that's. You're not. You're not on track to fix it. You have to. You have to be accountable. This is my child. He's struggling. I didn't do my job. Okay? That's reality now. I'm not talking about a sick kid, somebody born like a medically sick kid. I'm talking about or. Or psychologically sick kid. Okay, okay. I'm not talking about that. Okay.

[A]

That.

[B]

That is a different deal. But I'm talking about your average run of the mill kid. Okay? Us as children. Not. Okay. I'm sorry, man, I interrupted you, but I just couldn't if you don't accept responsibility, you're in a victim position. If you accept responsibility, you. You're in a powerful position. And now you can change it.

[A]

Isn't that what happens with that phone call when a parent says, I'm looking for treatment for my child? It's some of the first steps in the process for those. For those parents. And it might be really difficult.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You know, it would have been great at the first sign of a problem to get your child a therapist and then have a family therapist where you could go in and deal with it. That would have been. That would have been great.

[A]

I want to follow up with something that you said there because it's so important. It is so helpful when parents get their kids into therapy, when they ask for help, because then they're teaching their kids. Right. They're teaching the kids it's okay to ask for help. We want. I don't have to know everything.

[B]

This is how responsible adults deal with their stressors.

[A]

Yes. I don't have all the answers. Let's get somebody involved here to help us.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's exactly right.

[A]

And we. It's not always easy to find therapists who understand substance abuse and things like that, but it doesn't mean we don't reach out for help. And we live in a world today where there's the. The more kind of experience letters behind somebody's name. It's almost like we trust them less when the reality is trusting them more would be more helpful for our kids.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it's hard to trust. Okay. When it's your child. All right. What's the biggest myth parents or kids still believe about these street drugs or about any drugs?

[A]

That it's not going to happen to me.

[B]

That's exactly.

[A]

It's not. Or there's two things not going to happen to me. Or. The other part is that we tend as parents, not my kids, not my kids. Or we pace our experience onto them and say, well, I smoked a little bit of pot, or I did this or I did that, not realizing that they're an individual and there is a negative effect. So from that point of view, the myth is that it's okay. I have a parent tell me. I know. My. My son just. He smokes a little pot before he goes to school. I said, He's 13 and he's not smoking a little pot. He's dabbing. He's dabbing. 98% THC at 13 years old before he goes to school. And he says, and I quote, At 13, I need this to cope. That's. That's just terrifying.

[B]

And I did, too.

[A]

Yes. And it's true. So then that goes back to. We need therapy. We need to understand what's going on with my son.

[B]

And I certainly didn't have that.

[C]

And there's kids that we're seeing, too. I think the myth of, like, everyone's doing it. Why can't I do it? You know? And we're seeing kids with severe mental health disorders. There's a difference between someone with 1, 2, 3 mental health diagnoses and a kid without, you know, not. Not that any of them really, at 13, 12 or 13 should be doing it. Right. But there is a difference. There is someone who's really predisposed to what we were talking about earlier, like, psychosis, you know, dabbing and like, having, you know, really, really concentrate, concentrated THC versus someone who's not.

[B]

I think the biggest myth is. Right. And we went over is, I don't know anybody who's died of. My kid's not going to die of. He's just being a kid. And it's not. If it's when now. Because everybody's dropping from this.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. Yep. This is a good one. Where are teenagers heads today? Where are they at? What's their mental and emotional state compared to five to 10 years ago? It's an excellent question.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I think I've seen a huge difference in the last six years. I mean, post Covid, huge change. They're like social, social, emotional ability to interact with each other is super different coming out of COVID A lot of them.

[B]

What's the stare?

[C]

The stare?

[B]

The stare.

[C]

Like the literal stare.

[B]

Yeah. So today you talk to kids.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And you'll ask them a question or you'll say something, and they'll just do this.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I think.

[B]

What is that?

[C]

Post Covet, a lot of them didn't want to take their masks off. Like, they. They have trouble interacting face to face because I think they were on zoom for so long. They were behind masks for so long, they didn't want to take their masks off. It was really hard to get them to even.

[B]

But it's more than that. But it's more than that. I've noticed over the last. Since I've been back.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay. Because remember, I was going five years. Okay. And I'm back, too. So in the last seven years, this is what I've noticed. And I even had this experience with one of my employees.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I was asking Questions. And she's dissembling, right? And it's like dissembling is like you talking about, isn't it a great day today? And somebody screams, Thursday. Okay, that's dissembling, okay? Or they start talking about their dog, right? You're like, dude, I just asked you this question. Why are you talking to me about your dog? So she's dissembling and then finally I get her cornered, right? Because I'm going to ask, and why is that? Why is that? Why is that? Why is that? How did this happen, right? I'm going through the thing and then finally I've got her. Now I'm speaking at a whisper. I'm speaking lower than I am now. And she started and she said to me, stop screaming at me. And I had other people on the phone. There were like six of us. And I said, get off the phone, hang up. And she hangs up, right? And everybody's in shock because I've got a 20 something kid that said, or stop screaming at me. It was so bizarre. What is going on with these kids? You see them all day long. That is totally different. What's going on with that?

[C]

I think there's a lot. I mean, I think that the parenting is different. I think that there's such a desire to protect kids from. Like, I need to feel safe all the time. Like, there's so much like, I don't feel safe here.

[B]

Do you know what I think it is? Social media.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, I was gonna.

[C]

I think it's also social media, right? But I think that there's the parenting. I think it's the social media. I think it was Covid. There's so much.

[B]

Definitely Covid. It's definitely Covid. It's definitely. I don't know how much different parents you would know better than I would. How, how they've changed. I know that we've remained consistent. Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But again, that's not. That doesn't have anything to do with me. It has to do with who taught me how to be a better man.

[C]

So I think parents don't want kids to feel discomfort anymore. And kids are like, I'm. I'm unsafe, right? Like, you're attacking me. It's helpful for kids to feel discomfort. They need to be able to go out in the real world and say, you know, I was. I have resilience, right? Like, I was able to have this challenge.

[B]

That's so beautiful that you say that because nobody. It's the benefit of a skin knee, right?

[A]

Who wrote that?

[B]

Again, the benefit the benefit of a skin knee.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

I was it. Well, you know, Beetle also, there's also, there's a. This goes back to the social media piece, which is that one is we're dealing with parents who have difficulty themselves with uncomfortability. And then when it comes to. As really as parents, our job is to kind of frustrate our kids, so to speak, help them learn things, clean their room, have rules, expectations. And if we look at. So there's a, a book. I'll just talk about anxious generation. One of the statistics in there for young boys between 14, I think, and 22 years old, their minor injuries like broken finger, broken wrist stitches, things like that, have gone down by up to 60% over that. Well, when he talks about this is those kids are, aren't out there playing the same way. They're not having the same failures, they're not having the same repairs. What you talked about with parents, a lot of what happens in treatment is repair.

[B]

It's the pussification of America.

[A]

I didn't put it that way. Well, it is, but yeah, to not be uncomfortable. And I think that the generations of parents that we're seeing now, they have such a hard time when we say the answer's no and that's a complete sentence. And you'll see their eyes kind of glaze over because they, they're, they're afraid of the reaction to their.

[B]

It's okay to show respect for your child.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So I go ahead and I'll ask my kid to do something and sometimes he'll go, yeah, dad, I'm not really feeling that right now. And I'm cool with it, right? But there are some times where I'm not cool with it. And I'll say, yeah, I need you to do that. I know you don't want to do it, but I need it. And it'll be like, why? And sometimes I'll tell him why and then he'll look at me and go, yeah, but why? And I said, because. I said so, that's why. Okay. And he's like, oh, cool. Yeah, okay. It's like, you know, you go down that, right. That you, you know, you exhaust all your legislative remedies. And then it's like at the, at the end of the day, it's like, okay, I really like the whole negotiating thing. You're really very good at it. Unfortunately, my will's stronger than yours. And this is how we're going to.

[C]

Do it, because I'm asking you to. And that is Showing that is showing your kid respect. It's like this is what happens in the real world.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

There is a rule. I'm asking you to do it. That is respect.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's so weird when you have two kids, isn't it? They're so different. Like, you think they're going to be the same, and they're completely different.

[A]

My daughters are 36 and 37, and both of them have children. It is not easy to be a parent, but to watch them now on the other end, I have four grandchildren and in their process and my kids working on their own recovery also. So my youngest has eight years sober, and her and her husband are running a little treatment center up in Utah.

[B]

You're kidding.

[A]

Yeah. And she said, I will never get involved in what you're doing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, and she met the man of her dreams, actually, during COVID But that the. The process was not easy. And she would tell you it was nine treatment centers for her. It was. It was. It was a lot. It was some of the most painful times that our family went through.

[B]

Were you in this field when you were putting her in treatment?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

How did you deal with your own kid being in treatment when you're actually running a treatment center? How did you. How did you deal with that?

[A]

Well, first, it probably goes back to my mom when she put me in treatment, you know, in 1984 and 1985, she just said, I put the combat boots on. It didn't matter.

[B]

Oh, you were 17.

[A]

I was 17.

[B]

So we're the same age.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm 58. Nine.

[A]

I'm 58.

[B]

Right. Okay.

[A]

So I. There was something in me. I believed in treatment, and probably working at Visions helped because I was like, this thing is good. These interventions are good. I chose places where I knew the staff were good. 45 days. And then she came home and started lying, manipulating, going out. She hadn't used. She was sober, but being a shithead. And I took her back to treatment to an extended care program at eight months sober.

[B]

And.

[A]

And. And because she was dry. She was dry because it's not just about whether she was using or not. It was what was going on with her emotionally.

[B]

That's right. And it's only a matter of time. Let me just explain this, because it's only a matter of time when you're that uncomfortable to where, you know, you have to self medicate. That's why he took her before the wheels fell off to get the aftercare she needed.

[A]

And you get so much Further, more quickly with. When you haven't gone all down the road of all the complications of somebody.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Nip it in the bud.

[A]

But most people, it's hard to do that.

[B]

Oh, it's hard to do that because the kids don't understand it. But you're. You know, I always say the same thing to my clients. You know, I don't really care what you think about me today. I care about what you think about me next year and the year after.

[A]

Absolutely. And, and now it's dad, when you're coming up to spend a couple of days in Utah with, with your grandson.

[B]

That's see.

[A]

Right. So.

[B]

And, and well, more importantly now she's capable of having a child and being a good mother.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I mean, can you imagine, we've seen so many times these drug addicted kids have their own child and now how the hell do you take care of that child when you can't take care of yourself?

[A]

And it's, it's a difficult thing. And I started, I mean, I was a single dad at 21 with two daughters in diapers. So I understand the process of trying to figure out how to raise kids, you know, bring them to daycare, deal with their mom, who was out of control at the time.

[B]

How is she doing now?

[A]

She's okay.

[B]

Do the kids have a relationship with her?

[A]

They do, yeah.

[B]

Good. You know, good.

[A]

And, but and a lot of that is by their doing. They learned. Right. They learned in their process of their own recovery, their own process. Going to therapy, putting me in the middle of the room so they could talk. You know, that's that the biggest smile on their face ever. Probably not a gift. It's when we all went to family therapy together and Dr. Alan Berger said, would you like to put your dad in the middle today? And their eyes just lit up. What that, yeah, what that means is that dad's going to be the focus and everything in here is safe for us to talk about.

[B]

So that. That's where they shit on you.

[A]

That's where. Yeah. And they could ask questions and, and they had a mediator, right? They had a mediator to help with the process.

[B]

So if they get too aggressive, the guy looks at him and says, what was your intent by.

[A]

It was more like, so, John, are you going to really answer that question? You know, it came back to me because it was, it was uncomfortable. And when you're a parent, when you look at things like when they say, dad, when you said this, it hurt dad when you did this. You know, I was Afraid. Why did you do these things? You know, then that's the biggest gift.

[B]

You could give your kids. That was the most beautiful thing. Literally. That's great, because that's hard for a parent to hear. And somebody asked me the other day, are you a good father? And I said, you'll have to ask my kids. That's not for me.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because if you asked my mother and my father if they were good. Well, not my dad. My dad would have told you the truth. But if you would have asked my mother if she was a good mother to her three children, she would have said absolutely. No, but she would have said absolutely. That's how she would have done it. Right. I mean, horrible mother. Right.

[A]

And that's what they. When we talk about things like therapy and our own process as a family, they point to that event.

[B]

It's beautiful. It's the most beautiful thing. I cannot wait to do that. I cannot wait to sit in the middle and have my kids do me. I can't wait. That is going to be the best day of my life, because I'm going to get clarity on what I did to my kids.

[A]

And I had helped to show up in a way that was authentic. The therapist would stop me and say, what are you feeling right now? Because I can get into my head pretty quickly. And it was. It was a process that.

[B]

What did you say?

[A]

I. I had to stop. I would ask him questions because sometimes my emotions were so big because all I wanted to do was protect my kids. And in protecting my kids, I said and did things sometimes that either they didn't understand or. Or that I need to apologize for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and repair goes back to. That's for kids. When they can repair with a parent, a coach, a teacher, where we're setting the foundation for how they can work out in their lives. Like in. With their partners, in their marriage.

[B]

Yeah. We show them that you can make repairs.

[A]

Yes. That.

[B]

That's how adults do it.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Okay. They don't double down. Okay. Their mistakes. They double down when they know they're correct.

[C]

Right.

[B]

All right. How often do you see depression, anxiety, or trauma alongside substance use disorder? Okay. The answer is everything. Yeah.

[C]

Every single time.

[B]

Okay. Every single time.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, Great question. Okay. What's the biggest difference in treating adolescents versus adults? Wow. Great question.

[C]

I mean, I think definitely the family piece still with adults. Yes, it's useful to bring in the family piece, but adolescents, like. Like we talked about, like, the.

[B]

Can I tell you what I think?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

They're a hostage.

[A]

The Kids are a hostage. Yeah, yeah. Because they don't have a choice.

[B]

They don't have a choice.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's the eat for me. If I could keep people against the wrong will, we'd have 100%. I mean, think about it. If you could keep someone absolutely. Until they were ready to go, it'd be 100%.

[A]

Well. And with kids, they do and say things that the adults think about and don't say, or it takes them a lot longer.

[B]

The kids will give me an example.

[A]

The kids will throw the chair, flip you the finger. They're on a family session with their parents and they just get up and.

[B]

Hold on, hold on. You kids will never do that.

[A]

So they like we're on a whole family session and the kid just gets up and closes the computer. Just gets up and closes the computer. Or they run down the street. They're running down.

[B]

And the parents don't take the computer.

[A]

And throw it in the pool. No, well, no, no, I'm asking. No, because they're on the other end. So they're having a session. Like there may be a family session or something.

[B]

On a computer.

[A]

On a computer. The therapist is there. They're maybe doing something.

[B]

And have you ever had a parent just come right into the place, grab the kid's computer and rehab, say, you don't need that, you don't need that. That's bullshit. And just.

[A]

It's the other way around for us. We tell the parents they don't get their computer. That's a therapist's computer. They don't get their computer. They don't get their cell phone. There's no social media. We need a clean slate to start from. Has to be that way. And we have parents saying, what are they going to do without their phone? But most, most parents say, you're really going to do that? Yeah, we're really.

[B]

Well, because they don't have the stones to do it. They're afraid of their kid. They're walking around on eggshells.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

And then they need the stones. So a lot of our work for family work is getting, getting there. But. And also with kids, you know what I tell parents? What do you tell them?

[B]

I tell them, if you listen to me, you get your kid back. And if you don't, you don't.

[A]

We had a therapist, that's simple. We had a therapist who used to say to dads, directly in the back of my office, I have extra spines and testicles. We can do implants here.

[B]

Do you know what's great Here, you know what I used to say? Thank you, because I'm going to break this one out of archives. Okay. I haven't said this in 20 years. Take your hand and touch the back of your neck. Do it. You feel that bump?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what that is? It's a spine. I need you to have a spine.

[C]

That's a good one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So good.

[A]

But the kids have been breaking us down since the day they opened their eyes, right?

[B]

Yeah. It's just the way they negotiate and trying to navigate the world. It's helpful.

[A]

I tell people. When my daughter was 15 years old, right. This is my. My oldest, Justine. I said she could spin me on her little finger, and I. I was 270 pounds, bench pressing, 405 pounds, and she could immediately just with a look or anything like that. I had to get help as part of the therapy so that I could sit in there and help support her to get the help she needed.

[B]

How do you navigate working with parents who are terrified, angry, or in denial?

[C]

I mean, I think they're all like that. Yeah, I think all of them are like that. Maybe not all of them in denial, but most of them in some way.

[B]

Oh, they're not in denial because they just sent the kid into treatment. So now they're not. They're not in pre. Contemplation. Yeah, they're not even in contemplation. These people are into action somewhat.

[C]

I think they can, like, get them there.

[B]

You get them there and then they.

[C]

Pull back and then they're like, oh.

[B]

They'Re gonna take their will back.

[C]

It's like buyer's remorse, you know, like, they get there and they're like, wait a second. You want us to do this? You want us to do that? You want us to hold this boundary with our kid? We see our kid uncomfortable. We don't like that.

[B]

You know, maybe people don't. You know what I found? People don't like the word boundary.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

They don't even know what the hell that means.

[C]

Well, they set a boundary, but they don't hold the boundary. So it's like teaching them that, like, setting the boundary and not holding the boundary is actually worse than, like, it's don't set the boundary at all. Because then you're just teaching them that your boundary means nothing.

[B]

Exactly. Right.

[C]

And you've kind of like started this whole thing in the first place.

[A]

On the cheating side of things when it comes to adolescents.

[B]

On the cheating thing.

[A]

Cheating side. When people say, why do you work with adolescents? They're this they're that and they're other. The other thing. We get to see changes take place so quickly.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So quickly. Kids that, like I said, that gleam in their eye comes back. They're talking to their parents about, oh, you know what? I have a sponsor now. And he said, I talked to my friend last night when we were getting ready to go to sleep, and we talked about maybe after we go home, that maybe we could go to that AA convention together or maybe we can go.

[B]

Those are great time. Do you remember those conventions as kids?

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

The best time ever. Remember?

[A]

Yep. Best time ever. And these kids, because they get to have. Find, like, people who are talking in their language who are sexually active, their life. Well, yeah, there's that, you know. So a couple weeks ago, we were in. Me and somebody else were in New York, and we just called this kid up that we knew was there to see if he wanted to hang out or do something with us or something like that.

[B]

Oh, that's so bitching.

[A]

And he was so choked up, he said, you're calling me? I said, yeah, we're in New York. I heard that you're still, you know, you're working on some things. He's like, what? What do you want to do? And he's like, well, don't you guys go to meetings? Yes. So we all went to a men's stag together.

[B]

That's nice.

[A]

It was pretty. It was really sweet.

[B]

You went to a men's stag. That's so cool.

[A]

She didn't. She wasn't there.

[C]

I was.

[A]

She wasn't there.

[B]

She's telling you identify as a man.

[A]

Those. Those connections.

[B]

It's so awesome.

[C]

He was a kid who was. While he was at Visions, I saw him, and he was just like a puddle on the ground who would just scream for, like, 30 minutes, like, I can't be here. I can't be here. I can't be here with a hoodie on, you know?

[B]

And how long did it take him to come around?

[A]

Couple months. Yeah, a couple of months. But to go from that to. Yeah, being. You guys actually called me.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, he wanted to hear from the stupid CEO that was trying to hold boundaries with him and help his parents hold boundaries. And the intake person that set the limit with, you know, when. When his parents were leaving him there, he's like, you guys called me. You want to hang out?

[B]

I love that story. I love that story. That's beautiful. Okay. We did it. All right, guys. Is there anything left unsaid?

[A]

I just wanted to thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for what you're doing here. Just like I said, shouting it from the rooftops. We have to shout it from the rooftops. Kids are. Kids are dying. Kids are suffering. Parents are suffering. Families are suffering. And there's a different way. There's absolutely hope. See you next Tuesday.

[B]

They said it we're out of time. Please subscribe on YouTube. Click the thumbs up and leave a comment. Please subscribe on Apple Comment podcast and Spotify and leave a rating and a review and share the we're out of time podcast with others you know who will get value out of it. See you next Tuesday.