Ben Rhodes (3:07)

Thank you.

Jane Coston (3:08)

So let's start with what's happening in Syria, because it seems to have caught the entire world by surprise. We've seen the US Carry out some bombing campaigns on ISIS strongholds in Syria in recent days. ISIS is back. So what's behind these strikes?

Ben Rhodes (3:22)

I think what's happening now is the future of Syria is up for grabs, and the US doesn't want ISIS to use this moment of kind of chaos and disruption to reestablish itself. And so the US Is, you know, whatever list we have of suspected ISIS targets, I think the US Is going after those the US Generally had operated in eastern Syria with Assad gone. Now, there are other parts of Syria where the US has not generally taken military action, at least not regularly in the past. And so I think they're going after ISIS targets in places like central Syria to make sure they don't get a foothold here.

Jane Coston (4:01)

Trump campaigned on a more isolationist approach to US Foreign policy, though that's always been a little confusing because he'll simultaneously want to bomb everything but also keep us out of war. And on Truth Social this weekend, he said, this is not our fight. But what are the risks of him keeping the US out of this? Can he keep the US out of this, given that there are already troops there?

Ben Rhodes (4:23)

The U.S. is already involved. Right. We have 900 troops on the ground. We are the lifeline to some of the forces that fought ISIS with us. Why should we want to be involved? Well, yes, there's the obvious ISIS point. There's the humanitarian need for a country that is emerging from 13 years civil war. There are millions of refugees, including in Europe, who would like to go home and are making this transition more successful through our engagement will help all those interests. If we're just hands off, it's not like we're not still having influence. We are.

Jane Coston (4:57)

And what are the bigger regional risks of letting a power vacuum develop in Syria?

Ben Rhodes (5:02)

Well, again, yeah. So this transition does not work and there's a return to some kind of civil war. The risks we've seen from the past can be the reemergence of isis, because it thrives in kind of conflict zones. It can be more refugees leaving the country. It can be a return to some form of Iranian or Russian influence. It can also kind of be instability that moves across borders. You know, neighboring states like Lebanon that have already been through war could kind of get drawn in. So that'd be bad. The other point is just the missed opportunity, though, because it'd be a very good thing if Syria can finally stabilize, people can go home, and some kind of governance can emerge from this transition period. So huge risks, but also huge opportunities lost if the US doesn't support that kind of transition.

Jane Coston (5:53)

Looking just south of Syria to Israel and its ongoing war in Gaza, this is an issue that has deeply divided the Democratic Party for more than a year now. Why do you think that Biden ultimately never broke publicly with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to try and force an end to this war?

Ben Rhodes (6:09)

I think he made a terrible mistake. I think there are probably different reasons for that. 1. He kind of lives in the past where, you know, you de facto, literally, it's his term, hug Israel and embrace them and kind of don't impose any conditions on assistance to Israel. I mean, we went through a debate actually, in the 2020 primary where each candidate was asked, would you ever impose any conditions on Israel? And Joe Biden was one of the only candidates who said, no, never. You know, so that's basically saying, I will never use leverage on you. So some of that is, I think, personal belief that that's just how you operate. I think some of that was just a true incapacity to see the scale of the suffering in Gaza and be moved by that. I think some of that bluntly, was he had donors that were very pro Israel, and when he announced one weapons shipment being delayed, he got a lot of blowback from those people and kind of folded immediately. So I don't know. There are a lot of reasons, none of them. The outcome is not good, though, especially for Palestinian people.

Jane Coston (7:10)

In some ways, though, and I would say perhaps intentionally and unintentionally, is BIDEN Leaving the U.S. and the incoming Trump administration on potentially better footing in the Middle east because Hamas and Hezbollah have been devastated. Iran has been significantly weakened because of this. And what took place in Syria, and you have Syria with President Bashar al Assad, who was able to stay in power with the help of Iran and Russia. He's now fled the country. Are things better now in any way?

Ben Rhodes (7:42)

I mean, look, I guess you could, yes, in the sense that if you just look at this as a scorecard, Iran is weaker today than they were a year and a half ago. His blows obviously been hugely damaged. At the same time, I mean, Gaza is destroyed. That's a problem. It's a human problem, a moral problem, but it's also, who's going to rebuild that. The west bank is a tinderbox that could be hugely destabilizing. If Palestinians are pushed out, ethnically cleansed or driven out of either the west bank or Gaza, that's likely to destabilize Jordan, where you already have a huge Palestinian population. There's a lot of anger at the government for not doing more to stand up to Israel, could destabilize other neighboring countries. Iran has almost enough material for a nuclear weapon. If they chose to weaponize that, that would be hugely destabilizing. So, sure, our adversaries are weaker. But I mean, this point I often make is that that doesn't necessarily translate into like, everything is therefore fixed or better. The US has taken a huge hit internationally with its credibility because we're very isolated in the kind of support we provide Israel. So, you know, it's a pretty mixed bag here. And I think the Middle east is going to be in some degree of conflict for some time to come here.

Jane Coston (9:08)

And finally, I want to get to the war in Ukraine. The Biden administration has sent Ukraine tens of billions of dollars in military aid since Russia invaded almost three years ago. But the war is stuck in kind of a stalemate, which when the war began, I think a lot of people expected Russia to win pretty quickly. And it's actually, I think, very impressive that that did not take place. But would you consider Biden's handling of Ukraine to be a success or a failure of his presidency at this point?

Ben Rhodes (9:34)

I mean, it's a success in the sense that, yes, I think Ukraine, a lot of people predicted its collapse. It's above all to their credit that they chose to stand and fight. Zelenskyy chose to stay. But that initial support from the Biden administration, that kind of overwhelming arming and budgetary support for the Ukrainian state kind of allowed it to survive. That's the success side of the equation. But the other side of it is this isn't over yet. I mean, I think there was a little bit of a premature triumphalism in those initial months that Russia had been beaten. Actually, what's happened is it's a stalemate favoring Russia. They've taken a bunch of territory, they've fortified kind of their line so Ukraine has trouble making offensive gains to take back their territory. Russia's bigger and they're using that size advantage to kind of grind down the Ukrainians and take more and more territory. The US Sanctions on Russia have not really worked. Europe's been a bit destabilized because of our own sanctions, because their energy prices are getting higher. And that's kind of fueling the far right. So like the Middle east is, you know, there's, there's a course success of keeping the Ukrainian government above water. But right now it's actually not looking that great.

Jane Coston (10:54)

And Biden surely cannot be happy that Trump, who is a big admirer of Putin and strongman in general, will be inheriting this war. What are the long term risks of the war in Ukraine ending in anything other than a Russian defeat?

Ben Rhodes (11:08)

Well, I think the long term risks first and foremost to Ukraine. Any peace deal in the coming months will likely, even the Ukrainians won't say this, but the Russians occupy a bunch of territory, almost 20% of the Ukrainian state, and they'll solidify that control and then they might come back and threaten Ukraine at a future time like they did when they invaded in 2022. I also think that there's a risk that if the sense is the US Is out of this, we don't really care what Putin does in his neighborhood. There are other former Soviet republics like Georgia, where you see a big power grab right now, the opposition is being arrested. Moldova, where Russia controls a piece of territory, you could start to see Russia begin to try to pull those countries under their control. I'm not somebody who thinks Putin's going to march into Europe tomorrow, but I do think that, you know, Russian backed leaders are feeling stronger, like Serbia is not a country that, you know, a lot of Americans follow closely, but there's a Russian backed kind of nationalist who has designs again on Kosovo. So we could just kind of be in a world again where European security is in question. Right. And that's not great.

Jane Coston (12:25)

What do you think Biden's foreign policy legacy will be?

Ben Rhodes (12:28)

I think that the strongest point of it, I guess the two things they point to Ukraine, the kind of survival of Ukraine and the unity among NATO in supporting Ukraine, the expansion of NATO to include two new members, that's part of the legacy. But at the end of the day, I think Gaza is going to stand out for a lot of people. That was the most prominent thing they did the last year and I don't think it's going to age well. I think we're going to learn that a lot more people were killed in Gaza than we're even aware of today. And frankly, it's hard to kind of evaluate a legacy that doesn't take account for the fact that Biden years are basically a parenthesis between two Trump terms. So it's not going to leave a huge footprint probably on U.S. foreign policy.

Jane Coston (13:20)

Ben, as always, thank you so much for being here.

Ben Rhodes (13:22)

Thanks a lot.

Jane Coston (13:24)

That was my conversation with Ben Rhodes, former deputy National Security Advisor for President Barack Obama and co host of Crooked's Pod Save the World. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads and now the news.

Ben Rhodes (13:55)

Head of Lines.

Joe Biden (13:59)

I pray to God that President Elect throws away Project 2025. I think it'll Be an Economic Disaster.

Jane Coston (14:07)

President Biden spoke on Tuesday to defend his economic policy over the past four years and warn folks about the dangers of President elect Donald Trump's economic agenda. At a Brookings Institution event in D.C. biden lauded his administration's passage of landmark legislation like the American rescue plan that paid out checks to people and their families during the pandemic. He also pointed to the Chips and Science act and the Inflation Reduction Act. Biden acknowledged that while the economy is better and inflation is down, many Americans are still feeling the financial effects of the pandemic.

Joe Biden (14:39)

We acted quickly to get inflation down. With the help of Republicans and Democrats, inflation came down to pre pandemic levels. Wages have increased, but still too many working and middle class families struggle with high prices for housing and groceries and the daily needs of life.

Jane Coston (14:56)

Biden said that Trump could quickly undo all the progress the country has made. The President elect has promised to implement tariffs and cut taxes for billionaires.

Joe Biden (15:04)

Do we move backward? In my view, backslide to an economy that benefited those at the top while working people and middle class struggle.

Jane Coston (15:13)

This speech served as Biden's closing argument to the American public about his economic legacy before he leaves office next month. New York Attorney General Letitia James says her office will not drop the almost half a billion dollars that Donald Trump owes the state. The civil fraud judgment was handed down in February and it said Trump needed to pay back, quote, ill gotten gains from exaggerating his wealth. He did that in order to secure better loans and insurance rates. The number grows by over $100,000 every day that it's not paid. Trump's lawyers argued that the civil lawsuit should be dropped because other prosecutors dropped their criminal cases since the election. They also say the suit will interfere with Trump's presidential duties, to which James said no, it won't because it's already been settled. And waiting on a decision from an appeals court doesn't exactly take a lot of time, energy, or focus. The best reporting, the best analysis, and the most in depth coverage of the Trump administration is going to come from our team. Former Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz announced that he's got a new job. One American News Network said on Tuesday that Gates is joining the ranks with his very own primetime show. The creatively named Matt Gaetz show will air on the network starting next month. Here's Gates on One America News telling viewers why he's so excited about his new gig.

Ben Rhodes (16:33)

I've got the sources, I've got the.

Jane Coston (16:35)

Insights, and there is such a spirit of optimism to unlock the opportunity of America.

Ben Rhodes (16:41)

There's no place that's gonna cover it.

Jane Coston (16:43)

Better than One America News. I personally can think of a few places with better coverage. One America News also announced that Gates will co host a new podcast for the network. The POD describes itself as a vibrant program aimed at a younger Gen Z audience because, allegedly, Gaetz is a thing for Gen Zers. The Department of Justice's internal watchdog revealed that during Trump's first term, the DOJ secretly acquired the private communications Congress members and staffers. That's according to a report out Tuesday by DOJ Inspector General Michael Horowitz. He said that while trying to investigate media leaks, federal prosecutors obtained phone and text logs of journalists using subpoenas. However, Horowitz suggested that prosecutors may not have told federal courts that some subpoenas involve lawmakers and their aides. Oregon Senator Ron Wyden said the report details are, quote, beyond disturbing. In a statement, he added that spying on lawmakers threatens our constitutional system of checks and balances. And that's the news. One more thing. On November 18, 1979, 918 people, including nearly 300 children, were murdered at the People's Temple agricultural project in Guyana, otherwise known as Jonestown. They were victims of an American cult, the People's Temple, a group controlled by a man named Jim Jones. He decided that he would rather see hundreds of people die, some by forced injections with poison, some with poison drinks, others by shooting, than risk any of his followers returning to the United States and telling others what was happening in the compound. And now the Guyanese government wants to turn the site of so much death into a tourist attraction. I first learned about Jonestown when I was a kid, and the images of what happened there have never left me. The dead at Jonestown included United States Congressman Leo Ryan, the only congressperson to be assassinated while in office. He went to Jonestown to investigate allegations of abuse and was murdered as he tried to leave. His aide, Jackie Spear, barely survived, shot five times and forced to wait 22 hours for help. She later became a U.S. congressperson herself, and she told an ABC affiliate on Tuesday that she was horrified by the idea of making Jonestown into a sightseeing adventure. It's a bad idea. I don't think it's appropriate to aggrandize that kind of cultist activity. But Rose Souchran, whose company would be running private tours at Jonestown, told Politico that it was about time Jonestown became a tourist destination, adding, quote, we have multiple examples of dark, morbid tourism around the world, including Auschwitz and the Holocaust Museum. I'll be honest, when I first read that quote, my first thought was, are you fucking kidding me? Because Auschwitz is not dark, morbid tourism. It is a location of mass murder, kept as a memorial to those killed by the Nazis and a reminder to all of us to never let it happen again. Jonestown was a tragedy, not just because of what happened, but why it happened. Jones purported to preach racial equality, and the group fought against police brutality and for affordable housing in California. Most of the people who died at Jonestown were African American and nearly half were black women. Jones convinced his followers that only he could save them from racism and segregation. And so many, too many, endured rampant physical and sexual abuse from Jones and his cronies because they believed him. They even followed him to Guyana, where he promised his followers a place safe from bias and inequality. And then he killed them in the single largest deliberate loss of American civilian lives prior to 9 11. There is a memorial to those who died at Jonestown, but it's not in Guyana. It's in Oakland, California or. 412 of those who died at Jonestown but weren't claimed by family are buried. There are four plaques listing the names of everyone who died there, including Jones himself. That's what Jonestown should be. Not a tourist attraction or a fun visit for morbid people, but a memorial to the lives of hundreds of people who believed in something and lost everything. Before we go. Earlier this week, Syria's 50 year dictatorship under the Assad regime fell after rebel factions launched a staggering assault, toppling the government in just days. On Sunday, a bonus episode dropped of Pod Save the World, where Tommy and Ben discuss this pivotal moment, and on today's new episode, they discuss what could come next for Syria and how foreign countries should engage with the opposition leadership, given their past ties to terrorism. Tune into pod Save the World now, wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe. Leave a review, Celebrate Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson making her Broadway debut, and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just about how, Jackson wrote in one of her admissions essays to Harvard that she wanted, quote, to fulfill my fantasy of becoming becoming the first black female Supreme Court justice to appear on a Broadway stage like me. What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe@crooked.com subscribe I'm Jane Costen and you can genuinely achieve any of your dreams, even if they involve singing at me. Water Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Raven Yamamoto. Our producer is Michelle Eloy. We had production help today from Tyler Hill, Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters and Julia Clare. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our executive producer is Adrian Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka.