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Can Trump Deport Millions Of People?
00:27:42
President-elect Donald Trump says he wants to declare a national emergency – and maybe even use the military – to deport around 11 million undocumented immigrants living in the U.S. The consequences could be dire: millions of families separated, livelihoods upended, an even bigger backlog of immigration court cases, and a bill that could top $350 billion. Dara Lind, senior fellow at the American Immigration Council, helps us separate facts from fears when it comes to Trump’s plan. And in headlines: Trump announces a flurry of final cabinet picks, Israel’s Defense Forces traded more fire with the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah, and the annual U.N. climate summit wraps up with a controversial $300 billion deal.
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- [00:02]
Jane Coston
It's Monday, November 25th. I'm Jane Costin, and this is what a Day, the show that will not be paying $500 for a cameo from former Congressman Matt Gaetz. He signed up for the app less than 48 hours after dropping out of the running for attorney general. Proof yet again that there are lots of people in Congress who just want to be famous. But there are so, so many other ways to become famous, like winning a lookalike contest or becoming a pop star. Has Matt Gaetz considered bec on today's show? Trump's weekend administration nomination blitz and the annual UN Climate summit leaves some countries feeling pretty angry. Let's get into it. President elect Donald Trump has said he wants to declare a national emergency and maybe even use the military to deport around 11 million undocumented immigrants living in the US a strategy which the American Immigration Council has said could result in up to 4 million families being separated. People across the country are already bracing themselves for the potential consequences. Nonprofit organizations and lawyers that advocate for immigrants have been overwhelmed with phone calls from people terrified about losing their homes or having their loved ones taken away from them. And thousands of people trying to come to the US Are rushing to the border, hoping to get in before Trump takes office in January. Some experts have questioned whether Trump's mass deportation plans are even logistically possible. The US immigration system already has a backlog of almost 4 million cases that would take at least four years to resolve. What's going to happen when it adds millions more? Where will the government put people while they wait for their cases to play out? Who is paying for flights to other countries, actually, who is paying for all of this? The bill could top an estimated $350 billion. Stephen Miller, Trump's incoming deputy chief of staff for foreign policy and white nationalist sympathizer, is not too worried about the logistics of all this because of course he isn't. According to him, they're just going to make it all happen magically via executive order and the stroke of a pen. Here's Miller on Fox News Friday.
- [02:04]
Stephen Miller
Ice, Homeland Security investigations, and as I mentioned, the core elements of the Department of Justice are going to launch deportation sweeps to get these criminal gangs out of our country. So we're going to liberate, under President Trump's direction as commander in chief, his plan and his vision. We are going to liberate one town after another. And for that alone, President Trump should be carved in Mount Rushmore for what he is about to do to set American cities free.
- [02:36]
Jane Coston
Some cities in the U.S. like Los Angeles, have already declared themselves sanctuary cities in an attempt to resist Trump's deportation plans. Miller told Fox News in that same interview how the administration plans to react.
- [02:46]
Stephen Miller
The federal government is the entity that has the final say on immigration enforcement. And if these states continue to shield, as they have people that are raping and murdering children, every federal tool at President Trump's disposal will be used to bring these cities into compliance.
- [03:05]
Jane Coston
States rights for some, the boot of the federal government for others. Aside from saying the administration will withhold federal funds, Trump's pick to be his border czar, Tom Homan, has also threatened to send extra federal agents to essentially invade sanctuary cities. Here he is on Newsmax Saturday.
- [03:21]
Dara Lind
What is your message to mayors and governors who are threatening that kind of physical standoff with you?
- [03:27]
Jane Coston
Game on.
- [03:29]
Tom Homan
This other two happens. Game on.
- [03:31]
Jane Coston
If that wasn't clear, he said, let's see what happens. Game on. Not one person, not one is as tough as these dudes try to be on television. It's simply not possible to try and figure out how scared we should be, what Trump can and can't do, and how we can fight against these mass deportations. I called up my good friend Dara Lind, who's a senior fellow at the American Immigration Council. Dara Lind, welcome to what a day.
- [03:56]
Dara Lind
Thank you so much. It's good to be on.
- [03:57]
Jane Coston
You recently wrote an op ed in the New York Times called what Mass Deportation Actually Means. So what does mass deportation actually mean?
- [04:06]
Dara Lind
So because it is not a defined term, it's not like, oh, if you deport 2 million people, then it counts as mass deportation. But at 1,999,000, etc. It doesn't like, because of that, we need to move beyond thinking about it as like something that is going to be accomplished or not, you know, like box check style. Like, it's not going to be, it's not, it's not a pass fail situation. Right. So the question is, to what extent is a second Trump administration going to ramp up the interior immigration enforcement apparatus? How quickly and like, how aggressively in terms of deployment of resources and interpretation of existing law, the restrictions that are on them, especially in the immediate term, are much less legal. Like, there are millions of people in the United States who are deportable and that means that they can be taken into federal custody and the deportation process can be started. Than they are logistical, that once you take them into custody, you need someplace to put them while they go through whatever legal proceeding they are entitled to, which for many of them will include like at least one court hearing. And even if you get to the end of that process, you need planes to put them on seats on those planes and an agreement from the country that you're trying to land them in to accept them. And those are the kinds of things that, you know, those are potential pinch points in the process that are obviously going to prevent them from deporting 11 million people on day one. But that also are like flags for people who are paying attention to this to be looking at, because that's going to be relevant to how many people they can, you know, sweep up in a raid or take into custody or deport in the future. And so for those of us who, like, have loved ones who are potentially under a deportation dragnet or who are concerned about making sure that people in our communities are informed, that's a very important consideration.
- [06:01]
Jane Coston
So let's talk about some of those pinch points and let's talk about where you put people. There's a lot of conflicting information between people saying any of this is impossible and then places like Texas essentially saying, we will give you hundreds of acres for camps, effectively. So how serious is either side?
- [06:20]
Dara Lind
I think that to write off any expansion of deportation because they don't have the capacity right now is a little short sighted. Like, what makes mass deportation very interesting in terms of, like, what we heard about it before the election is that, you know, as early as November of last year, there were articles about the, you know, Stephen Miller and company are putting a lot of thought into how you would do this. They have plans for camps, et cetera. And then Project 2025, which had so much detail about so many other policy areas, had very little on interior enforcement. So we're playing a little bit in the dark as far as what they already have lined up for the first day, first hundred days, et cetera. So especially if there is going to be an emergency declaration where under the first Trump administration that was used to dedicate funds that, you know, that unlocked some pockets of funds that got moved to the border wall. If that sort of thing happens, that's money that's going to be moved into the quest into, like, we can spend this for detention. That said, it isn't free. And even if you have the land, the staffing is, you know, the federal government does have, you know, standards it has to follow for federal detention centers. So I think that this is, it's something where we're going to see how it pans out. But it's definitely the more money they throw at it now the less money they will have available in the future, because there really is a big difference between putting up a temporary facility and investing in building a permanent building where you're going to be able to have detention pads.
- [07:55]
Jane Coston
I think another, perhaps pinch point of a different nature is public opinion. And one of the challenges that Trump had during the first Trump administration was that he would try some pretty extreme immigration policies like the Muslim ban, get a ton of pushback, and then not be able to actually do all of the things he said he wanted to do. He will now have the support of the courts and the House and Senate. Will it be different this time?
- [08:21]
Dara Lind
I worry about this a lot, and I worry about it a lot because of family separation, which, on the face of it, was the most successful case of what stopped Donald Trump was not the courts. It was a sustained public backlash that led them to believe that it wasn't worth it. The problem is that that happened in summer of 2018. And for the next two years of the first Trump administration, I and a lot of other people in the immigration space were trying to raise attention to things like the remain in Mexico policy, to the consequences of Title 42. And there wasn't the ability to get even a fraction of the same purchase with public opinion, even among people who were telling pollsters that they valued immigrants. And so I'm a little bit worried that family separation just fried everybody's circuitry. There were some very interesting features during the first Trump administration about people who had been deported in, like, the first year, which is when they were doing really stepped up interior enforcement, and how, with the exception of, like, their literal immediate family and loved ones, the rest of their community was like, yep, it sucks, but it had to happen. And so I'm worried. Right. I do think that there's a very important imperative on people who have expressed opposition to people who voted against Donald Trump, people who do not want this to happen. It really is important to pay attention to what's happening and to be willing to mobilize against it, because it's not really that we saw big public outcry that didn't do anything during the first Trump administration, But we did see things where public outcry that we would have expected to materialize didn't happen.
- [10:01]
Jane Coston
So I think on that point, you're talking to an audience of people who are very informed, very passionate, and prepared to get very mad. So what can people do? And how can people. 1. How can people learn more about these different policies? Because I think that the degree to which education matters Here, it can't be overstated. But also, like, what can people do? How can people get involved in the fight to help immigrants?
- [10:25]
Dara Lind
I definitely don't have all of the answers here. This is something that, like, everybody in the immigration movement is trying to work out at once. And what the first thing I would say is, especially if you're in a city or if you're in a community that has a pretty well established immigrant population and like, organizations serving them, try to figure out if there is a local rapid response network that you can be a part of because those are getting spun up. They are often the most important thing when things like raids happen because for one thing, they are providing resources and representation to the people who are caught up. And on the other hand, those are also the networks through which information is being shared. So, like in 2017, when the first residential raids under Trump happened, a lot of people are, you know, calling around in a panic, like, is there an ICE checkpoint on the way to school? Can I literally drop off my kids today or not? And having accurate information is so essential in letting people who, like, you know, when there weren't ICE checkpoints as there weren't in most cities, letting people, like, go about their lives and not shut down and not, you know, put their themselves and their children into, like, states of misery and doldrums just because of misinfo. But I think that there's also, you know, a role in making sure that state and local officials are not planning to roll over. It's going to be very interesting to see how much the Trump administration can use the threat of withholding federal funding to force places to accommodate, say, other states National Guard, if they try to go that route or to force them to maximize information sharing with ice. And the more that officials can be put, you know, could be held accountable in advance and put on the record in advance saying, we're not going to do that, the better off it's going to be. But I do think that getting in the habit now of making sure that you have accurate information, like a mix of immigration focused reporters, news outlets documented in New York is great. Sahan Journal in Minnesota is great. And organizations that are trying to kind of get facts out there, just getting in a habit of having that be part of your media diet, is going to be really essential to knowing when and where you need to be mobilized.
- [12:28]
Jane Coston
Dara, thank you so much for joining me.
- [12:31]
Dara Lind
Thank you.
- [12:33]
Jane Coston
That was my conversation with Dara lynch, senior fellow at the American Immigration Council. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads what a Day is brought to you by Americans United for Separation of Church and state for over 75 years, Americans United for Separation of Church and State has tirelessly defended your right to live as yourself and believe as you choose. From protecting LGBTQIA rights and marriage equality to safeguarding reproductive freedom in our public schools, church, state separation is at the heart of our most vital freedoms. Americans United fights for every individual's freedom to believe as they choose, so long as they don't harm others. Join the fight today@au.org Crooked what a day is brought to you by the Zero Emission Transportation Association Education Fund. The Zeta Education Fund wants Americans to know about the positive economic impact the EV and battery supply chain is having on our communities. Like how it's already created 240,000 jobs and attracted $177 billion of investment. More than a million EVs were sold in the US last year and there are currently over 200,000 public charging locations in the United States. Join forces with the Zeta Education Fund and help spread the facts about what a transition to EVs means for the future of America. Get on board@zeta zeta.org join what a day is brought to you by Rocket Money With Rocket Money, you don't have to remember every subscription or worry about forgetting any because you can see them laid out all in the same place. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com whataday that's rocketmoney.com whataday rocketmoney.com whataday and now the news head of lines.
- [14:57]
Scott Besant
Donald Trump is has staged the biggest political comeback in history and I think that we are on the verge of a golden age in the economy for the next four years where we can have a growth agenda, where we deregulate, get energy prices down and get interest rates down and that will drive growth like we have not seen for years.
- [15:24]
Jane Coston
Scott Besant, Trump's pick to be the next Treasury Secretary was on Fox News Just after the election, the billionaire and hedge fund founder was talking about Trump's economic plans. He was one of nearly a dozen picks Trump announced on Friday and Saturday. Trump has now filled out the remainder of his incoming cabinet. Also on Friday, Trump named outgoing Oregon Congresswoman Laurie Chavez de Reimer as his labor secretary. She's seen as a moderate Republican and had support from the Teamsters Union for secretary of Housing and Urban Development. Trump picked former NFL player Scott Turner. He served in the White House during Trump's first administration. And yes, Trump once again selected a black American for hud because of course, he did. And for everyone who naively thought Trump was serious about distancing himself from Project 2025, well, think again. He tapped Russell Vogt, the co author of the radical right wing Policy tome, to head the Office of Management and Budget. Vote held the same job during Trump's first term. Trump also named picks to head the cdc, the fda, and for surgeon general. On Saturday, he named longtime ally Brooke Rollins as his secretary of Agriculture. Rollins also served in the first Trump administration and she currently heads the America First Policy Institute, a think tank tied to Trump that promotes his agenda. All of these picks will require Senate confirmation. Israel's Defense Forces traded more fire with the Lebanese militant group Hezbollah over the weekend as diplomats continued talks for a ceasefire. The IDF says Hezbollah launched 250 missiles into the country on Sunday, wounding at least six people. On Saturday, the Lebanese Health Ministry said that an Israeli airstrike killed at least 29 people and wounded 66 others in Beirut. It was the IDF's fourth attack on the region in less than a week. Israeli military officials say the attack was aimed at one of Hezbollah's leaders, but it failed. The US continues to push its proposal for a ceasefire to avoid an all out war in the Middle East. Amos Hochstein, a mediator for the Biden administration, visited both countries last week. He left these talks saying that a deal was, quote, within our grasp. Josep Borrell, the EU's head of foreign policy, traveled to Lebanon to rally support for the proposal from world leaders. He spoke with reporters in Beirut on Sunday. This conflict has already taken an international.
- [17:37]
Dara Lind
Dimension and international community cannot stay idle in front of what is happening here.
- [17:47]
Jane Coston
The agreement would require Israel to withdraw troops from southern Lebanon within 60 days. COP 29 the annual UN climate summit wrapped up late Sunday in Baku, Azerbaijan. Leaders announced a major new deal to help developing countries transition to clean energy and offset the cost of damage from extreme weather. It calls for wealthy countries to put up $300 billion a year in financial support by 2035, that's triple the existing commitment. UN Climate Change Executive Secretary Simon Steel said the deal is an insurance policy against a worsening climate.
- [18:22]
Simon Steel
No country got everything they wanted and we leave Baku with a mountain of work to do. The many other issues we need to progress may not be headlines, but they are lifelines for billions of people. So this is no time for victory lapse.
- [18:46]
Jane Coston
Here's the problem. A lot of people aren't happy about the deal. Climate experts activists in developing countries say the 10 year deadline to meet the financing goal is too far away and the real need is way bigger. More like a trillion dollars annually. India's delegation representative Chandi Raina called the deal abysmally poor.
- [19:04]
Dara Lind
It is not something that will enable conducive climate action that is necessary for the survival of our country and for the growth of our people, their livelihoods. And I'm sorry to say that we cannot accept it.
- [19:22]
Jane Coston
Also weighing on, this year's climate summit trumps reelection. The US Is one of the world's top emitters of greenhouse gases and Trump has vowed to pull the US out of the Paris climate agreement and expand drilling for fossil fuels.
- [19:35]
Stephen Miller
They waste a ton of taxpayer money.
- [19:37]
Jane Coston
They're going to get fired. That will immediately improve the situation. Immediately. Over the weekend, billionaire Elon Musk used his massive platform of 205 million followers on Twitter to casually dox and harass more people who don't deserve it this time, random federal workers. Musk is gearing up to co lead the very real and not fake Department of Government Efficiency, or Doge, when Trump assumes office. And one of his big promises for Doge is that he will get rid of several federal agencies simply because there are too many of them.
- [20:10]
Stephen Miller
I call this like sort of strangulation by over regulation. And this is crazy.
- [20:18]
Jane Coston
Many are concerned that Musk will keep that promise and cut thousands of jobs purely because he doesn't think those jobs matter. And they're right to be worried because he keeps singling out random government employees by name and saying that their jobs are unnecessary. In one repost, he said, quote, sorry, insert name gravy train is over. It's worth noting that Elon Musk is a government contractor who receives significant federal funding. He also spends lots of time screaming at people on the Internet at 4:00 in the morning and retweeting memes people make about him. I'd say that is a waste of taxpayer money. And that's the news. One more thing. At COP 29, the US promised to put its money where its metaphorical mouth is on fighting climate change. We joined a bunch of other rich nations to pledge $300 billion annually to the cause. But whether or not the US actually keeps that promise depends on Lee Zeldin, Trump's nominee for head of the Environmental Protection Agency. He is a lot of things. A former New York congressman, a guy who loves Donald Trump, and a 2020 election denier. But he has very little experience on environmental issues. And what experience he does have doesn't fill me with confidence, because Zeldin isn't interested in how the US could help fight climate change. Actually, it sounds like he has some ideas on how to maybe make climate change way worse. Here's what he said on Fox News after his nomination was announced.
- [21:52]
Simon Steel
We have the ability to pursue energy dominance, to be able to make the United States the artificial intelligence capital of the world, to bring back American jobs to the auto industry, and so much more.
- [22:06]
Jane Coston
I don't remember the EPA being a cheerleader for the American auto industry, but, hey, maybe I just forgot. Anyway, I wanted to dig into the AI of it all, along with how Zeldin and Trump's other nominees will shape US Climate policy. So I called up crooked correspondent and longtime climate reporter Stephanie Evs. Stephanie, welcome to what a Day.
- [22:24]
Stephanie Evs
Thanks for having me.
- [22:26]
Jane Coston
So I think a lot of listeners might hear I want to make the US The AI capital of the world and think, what the hell does that have to do with the epa? Could you help explain what all that means and what this has to do with Zeldin's job?
- [22:38]
Stephanie Evs
So the relevant thing to know here about artificial intelligence, and I'll be specific, that we're not talking about all artificial intelligence, but specifically generative AI. So these models like ChatGPT that are really doing a lot of work, they're powered by these data centers with millions of servers, and they use a tremendous amount of energy. Models like ChatGPT can use 10 times as much energy as your standard Google search. And the other thing that happens is if you have a aging laptop like I did, and you're working on it all day long, it gets pretty hot. These data centers use a lot of water to keep those computers cool. So both of those things kind of intersect with EPA jurisdiction because EPA regulates pollutions from power plants and they regulate water quality. And a lot of these data centers are using the same water system that residents in that community are using. So Zeldin and other officials in the Trump administration might be talking about the need to grow artificial intelligence as a way to justify saying, well, we need more energy to power artificial intelligence, so you shouldn't regulate methane from these power plants as much because the fossil fuel industry argues that those regulations make it more costly to do their business or make them less likely to expand.
- [24:01]
Jane Coston
What else do we know about Zeldin's vision for the EPA beyond his plans for AI? What promises did he make or Trump make on the campaign trail?
- [24:09]
Stephanie Evs
Their big talking point is deregulation.
- [24:12]
Jane Coston
Right?
- [24:12]
Stephanie Evs
They want to get rid of the Inflation Reduction Act. It's a very similar playbook that we heard from Trump's first term. There are a bunch of climate oriented rules. They want to get rid of those in favor of helping business.
- [24:25]
Jane Coston
I want to also talk about two of Trump's other picks for his administration that will have a huge impact on climate but aren't getting as much press. Let's start with North Dakota Governor and failed presidential candidate Doug Burgum. He's lined up to be Secretary of the Interior. What does that role entail? And what does Burgum promise to do if he's confirmed?
- [24:44]
Stephanie Evs
The Interior Department deserves just as much attention when it comes to climate change. The Department of Interior manages all of the country's public lands. The biggest kind of climate related question there is about leasing on federal lands. There's a big expectation that Burghum, which has a lot of oil and natural gas production in his home state of North Dakota, is going to advocate for expanding leasing on federal lands and waters offshore. It includes the Gulf of Mexico and a lot of coastal areas. Leasing doesn't necessarily equal production. A lot of companies will snatch up these leases because they can hold onto them for a long time. But whether or not they develop and produce them is going to depend on whether they think they can make money off of that.
- [25:29]
Jane Coston
And then there's Chris Wright. Trump tapped him to serve as the country's Energy Secretary. He's currently the CEO of a giant fracking company, which I think might be kind of telling. But what are his plans for energy?
- [25:41]
Stephanie Evs
He's made some comments that lead people to associate him with climate denial. And part of his philosophy when it comes to that is supporting all kinds of energy. He will argue there's no such thing as dirty energy and clean energy. All energy has consequences. And the Department of Energy is the agency that supports a lot of the research into these climate solutions. So we could very well see less of a focus on clean energy or renewable sources like wind and solar in favor of more of a prioritization of fossil fuel related technologies as well as nuclear or technologies like geothermal power.
- [26:20]
Jane Coston
And with all of this in mind, where does AI come in when we look at all three of these people and how they'll impact the global effort to combat climate change?
- [26:29]
Stephanie Evs
The way I am kind of reading the situation so far is that AI goes along with this narrative that energy is about supporting business and energy is about the economy way more than it is about climate change. And energy is a huge driver in the economy. But I think what we can expect to see is that the incoming Trump administration will be focusing more on this energy dominance and supporting artificial intelligence as a big business sector, which could mean allowing more fossil fuel development to continue in order to support that. I think kind of the flip side of this is that there's a lot of potential and work going on to use AI as a tool in addressing climate change as well. It can really speed up research into climate solutions. It has great potential as a tool, but if growing, it also adds to the pollution problem and the emissions problem. Is the tool really that helpful?
- [27:29]
Jane Coston
Stephanie, thank you so much for coming on.
- [27:31]
Stephanie Evs
Thanks, Jane.
- [27:32]
Jane Coston
That was my conversation with Crooked correspondent Stephanie Ebbs. Before we go. We are so grateful for your support of Crooked Media. Thank you for tuning in and being with us through all that the year threw at us. As we look to the new year, we'll keep creating the content you love and building a truly independent, progressive media company. And we'll need people like you back in the fight with us, ready to hit the ground running. The best way to support Crooked is by subscribing to friends of the pod. And right now we're offering 25% off new annual subscriptions. You'll also get bonus pods, ad free episodes of Pod Save America and a discord community that will be here to support you. Learn more and subscribe@crooked.com friends or on Apple Podcast directly from the Pod Save America feed. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, don't pay Matt Gaetz $500 and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just the list of Fox News hosts who could find their way into Trump's cabinet like me. What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe@crooked.com subscribe I'm Jane Coston and seriously, don't pay Matt Gaetz. No one wants to hear from Matt. Water Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Raven Yamamoto. Our producer is Michelle Eloy. We had a production help today from Tyler Hill, Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters and Julia Clare. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our executive producer producer is Adrian Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka.
- [29:37]
Desmond Taylor
The kind of burgers you get today tells you a lot about yourself. You're either someone who settles for sad, same old same old burgers or you're at a Carl's Jr obsessed with a tangy OG Western bacon cheeseburger, demanding a house made guacamole, loaded guac bacon fired up for the insanely hot El Diablo or craving a classic Charbold Famous star. Give in to your flavor cravings. Do your mouth to Carl's Jr. Good Burger.
- [30:05]
Stephanie Evs
Good Burger.
- [30:07]
Tom Homan
Ben hadn't had a decent night's sleep in a month, so during one of his restless nights, he booked a package trip abroad on Expedia. When he arrived at his beachside hotel, he discovered a miraculous bed slung between two trees and fell into the best sleep of his life. You were made to be rechargeable. We were made to package flights and hotels and hammocks for less Expedia made to travel.