How Rebels Gained Control of Syria

Summary

What a Day – Episode Summary: "How Rebels Gained Control of Syria"

Host: Jane Coston
Produced by: Crooked Media
Release Date: December 9, 2024

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1. Introduction

Jane Coston kicks off the episode by teasing the major stories of the day, including President-elect Donald Trump's recent interview on Meet the Press, the USDA's new mandates on milk testing for bird flu, and the dramatic shift in Syria's political landscape with rebels seizing Damascus.

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2. Donald Trump's Meet the Press Interview

Key Highlights:

• Tariffs and Border Policies: Trump discussed his plans for implementing tariffs and tightening border security.
• Pardoning January 6th Rioters: A significant portion of the interview focused on Trump's promise to pardon those who stormed the Capitol on January 6th.

Notable Quotes:

• Donald Trump [00:14]: “I want to look at everything. We're going to look at individual cases every week.”
• Donald Trump [02:34]: “Everybody on that committee, we're going to. For what they did.”
• Kim Whaley [03:31]: “He certainly has the constitutional authority to do it, and if he did it, there wouldn't be any way to legally push back on it.”

Analysis: Jane delves into Trump's statements about the January 6th pardons, highlighting concerns from legal experts like Kim Whaley, a professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law. Whaley discusses the implications of such pardons, drawing parallels to historical instances like Gerald Ford's pardon of Richard Nixon. She emphasizes the potential risks to public safety and the erosion of democratic norms.

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3. Presidential Pardons: Deep Dive with Kim Whaley

Discussion Points:

• Historical Context: Whaley traces the origins of the presidential pardon power to the framers' intentions, noting its roots in a monarchy's divine right.
• Modern Implications: She evaluates the ethical and democratic concerns surrounding the use of pardons, especially in politically charged contexts.
• Preemptive Pardons: The conversation touches on the controversial idea of preemptive pardons aimed at protecting individuals from potential future prosecutions under Trump’s administration.

Notable Quotes:

• Kim Whaley [05:46]: “It is a relic of an unlimited monarchy... Presidents should think about whether a pardon is going to make the public less safe.”
• Kim Whaley [07:47]: “Preemptive pardon is a new term that's kind of come up in the last week, and I think it's really misunderstood.”

Insights: Whaley critically examines the balance between mercy and justice, questioning the democratic legitimacy of unilateral pardon powers. She warns against setting dangerous precedents that could embolden future authoritarian actions, particularly by a president like Trump who has expressed divisive rhetoric.

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4. USDA's Mandatory Milk Testing for Bird Flu

Overview: The USDA announced new regulations requiring dairy farmers, milk transporters, and processing centers to share raw milk samples for bird flu testing. This move comes in response to recent detections of the virus in dairy cows and products.

Details:

• Impact on Dairy Industry: The new mandates aim to prevent the spread of bird flu, which has already devastated poultry farms and affected millions of birds worldwide.
• Public Health Concerns: While the CDC reports low risk of human-to-human transmission, there is concern about the virus mutating into a more dangerous strain.

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5. FDA Considers Banning Red 3 Food Dye

Key Points:

• Health Risks: Red 3, used in approximately 3,000 food products, is under scrutiny for its potential to cause cancer.
• Senate Hearing: During a Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee hearing, Senator Tommy Tuberville pressured FDA officials to revoke Red 3's authorization.

Notable Quotes:

• Senator Tommy Tuberville [17:18]: “Red 3 has been known to cause cancer in cosmetics, but we still allow it to be put in our food.”
• Tommy Vitor [17:26]: “We are hopeful that within the next few weeks we will be acting on that petition and a decision should be forthcoming.”

Analysis: The FDA is facing increased pressure to prioritize public health over marketing interests. The potential ban on Red 3 reflects a broader initiative to tackle the obesity and diabetes epidemics by regulating harmful food additives.

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6. Historic Reopening of Notre Dame Cathedral

Event Highlights:

• Reconstruction Efforts: After a devastating fire in 2019, Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris celebrated its first mass since restoration, marking the culmination of a five-year rebuilding project funded by nearly a billion dollars in donations.
• Notable Attendees: French President Emmanuel Macron, First Lady Joe Biden, and former President Donald Trump were present at the reopening ceremony.

Significance: The reopening symbolizes resilience and the global community's commitment to preserving cultural heritage. It also serves as a reminder of the collective efforts required to restore and maintain historic landmarks.

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7. Rebels Seize Control of Syria's Capital

Breaking News: Rebel forces led by the Islamist militant group Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS) captured Damascus, Syria’s capital, effectively toppling President Bashar al-Assad’s regime. This dramatic shift occurred after government troops withdrew, and Assad reportedly fled to Russia.

Notable Quotes:

• Tommy Vitor [19:02]: “With the help of God, the city of Damascus was liberated and the regime of the tyrant Bashar al-Assad was toppled.”
• Tommy Vitor [19:15]: “These rebels shocked the world when they launched a new offensive against Assad's government just two weeks ago.”

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8. In-Depth Analysis with Tommy Vitor on Syria

Discussion Points:

• Assad’s Downfall: Vitor explains how Assad’s regime was weakened over the years due to diminishing resources and loss of key allies like Iran and Russia, who were preoccupied with conflicts in Ukraine and Gaza.
• Rise of HTS: The rapid surge of HTS was facilitated by support from Turkey, which armed various groups as a countermeasure against Kurdish forces in northeastern Syria.
• International Reactions: The international community is divided, with Russia and Iran losing a significant foothold, while Israel expresses concerns over potential instability on its borders.

Notable Quotes:

• Tommy Vitor [22:08]: “HTS is this kind of amalgam of opposition groups... we don't know if he's sincere about that.”
• Tommy Vitor [24:28]: “The U.S. is involved... the US has worked a lot with these Kurdish forces to combat ISIS.”

Insights: Vitor assesses the geopolitical ramifications of Assad’s ousting, highlighting the potential for increased instability in the Middle East and the importance of international support for Syria’s reconstruction. He emphasizes that while the immediate outcome is a Syrian-led overthrow, sustained international engagement is crucial for long-term stability.

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9. Conclusion and Additional Segments

Jane wraps up the episode by encouraging listeners to engage with related content, such as the special episode of Pod Save the World and the Offline series, which explores bipartisan conversations. She reiterates the importance of staying informed through Crooked Media’s platforms.

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10. Production Credits

What a Day is brought to you by Crooked Media, with production assistance from a dedicated team including Desmond Taylor, Raven Yamamoto, Michelle Eloy, Tyler Hill, Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters, Julia Clare, Eric Morrison, and Executive Producer Adrian Hill. The theme music is composed by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka.

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Conclusion

This episode of What a Day provides a comprehensive overview of significant political developments, public health initiatives, and international conflicts. Through insightful interviews with experts like Kim Whaley and Tommy Vitor, Jane Coston offers listeners nuanced perspectives on complex issues, ensuring they are well-informed about the events shaping the world today.

Transcript

[Jane Coston]

It's Monday, December 9th. I'm Jane Coston, and this is what a day. The show that wonders is this the best argument Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen can come up with for Fox News host and embattled Defense Secretary candidate Pete Hegseth?

[Kim Whaley]

There's a lot of politicians that have a drinking problem, Jake. Yes, of course. But I guess my question is, yeah, and then there's probably a lot of media that has a drinking problem, too.

[Jane Coston]

Pete hegseth, hey, lots of politicians and media figures have drinking problems, too. On today's show, we talked to Pod Save the World's Tommy Vitor about the toppling of Bashar al Assad's regime in Syria. And the USDA has also announced mandatory testing of milk for the bird flu virus. Good times. Let's get into it. President elect Donald Trump stopped by Meet the Press on Sunday for his first network sit down interview since winning back the White House. He said a lot of stuff about his plans for tariffs, the border and his messy cabinet picks. He spoke with host Kristen Welker for more than an hour. And we'll tell you more about the interview highlights later. But one of the major stories coming out of Trump's interview was that he reaffirmed his promise to pardon most of the people who violently stormed the Capitol on January 6th to stop Congress from certifying the 2020 election. And he says he'll do it immediately.

[Donald Trump]

I want to look at everything. We're going to look at individual cases every week.

[Jane Coston]

Yeah, okay.

[Donald Trump]

But I'm going to be acting very.

[Kristen Welker]

Quickly within your first 100 days. First day, first day, first day.

[Kim Whaley]

Yeah.

[Donald Trump]

I'm looking for issue these pardons. These people have been there. How long is it, three or four years? You know, by the way, they've been in there for years and they're in a filthy, disgusting place that shouldn't even be allowed to be open.

[Jane Coston]

Donald, if you think the D.C. jail is bad, which it is, let me tell you about a place called Rikers Island. Is this how we backdoor him into prison reform? Probably not. Anyway, Trump also seemed to leave the door open for going after President Joe Biden. He told Welker he won't appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the president, but he'll defer to his picks for attorney general and FBI director.

[Donald Trump]

No, I'm not doing that unless I find something that I think is reasonable. But that's not going to be my decision. That's going to be Pam Bondi's decision and to a different extent, Cash Patel, assuming they're both there, and I think they're both going to get approved. But, you know, while you ask me that, what they've done to me with weaponization is a disgrace.

[Jane Coston]

And while Trump says he might or might not leave Biden alone, he did not provide the same assurance to members of the House panel that investigated January 6th.

[Donald Trump]

Everybody on that committee, we're going to. For what they did.

[Jane Coston]

Yeah.

[Donald Trump]

Honestly, they should go to jail.

[Kristen Welker]

So you think Liz Cheney should go.

[Kim Whaley]

To jail for what they did?

[Kristen Welker]

Everyone on the committee, you think?

[Donald Trump]

I think everybody on the. Anybody that voted in favor of.

[Kristen Welker]

Are you going to direct your FBI director and your attorney general to send them to jail?

[Donald Trump]

No, not at all. I think that they'll have to look at that.

[Jane Coston]

Those kinds of comments are exactly why Biden is reportedly weighing preemptive pardons for people who might become targets of Trump's Justice Department. People like former Wyoming Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney, Democratic Senator elect Adam Schiff of California, and special counsel Jack Smith, even Dr. Anthony Fauci. But issuing those pardons would be another norm breaking move for Biden, on top of his decision last week to issue a sweeping pardon for his son Hunter. So for more on the power of the presidential pardon and its significance in this moment, I spoke with Kim Whaley. She's a professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law and author of the book Pardon how the Pardon System Works and why. Kim, welcome to what a day.

[Kim Whaley]

Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

[Jane Coston]

Okay, so Trump says he wants to pardon many of the January 6th rioters quickly, even maybe on his first day back in office. As an expert on the subject of presidential pardons, how are you thinking about that?

[Kim Whaley]

He certainly has the constitutional authority to do it, and if he did it, there wouldn't be any way to legally push back on it. But one of, I think the red lines around the use of the pardon power that presidents should think about is whether a pardon is going to make the public less safe, if a pardon will mean someone who is pardoned could go out and commit violent or other kinds of crimes. And there's a concern that once pardoned, these folks will feel emboldened to act in a similar manner against people they believed were thwarting the election in 2020.

[Jane Coston]

I mean, I keep thinking about how President Gerald Ford pardoned President Richard Nixon for the crimes he committed against the United States after Nixon resigned. What president does it set to pardon people who attack the US Government even beyond just the they could go back and do more crimes. But it basically also Says like you attack the Capitol to stop an election from taking place or from being certified, and that's fine.

[Kim Whaley]

Well, pardons have been used to excuse terrible behavior, to pardon scoundrels before. You know, Donald Trump pardoned Paul Manafort, Mike Flynn, Steve Bannon. Bill Clinton pardoned a guy by the name of Mark Rich who had fled to Switzerland to evade tax charges and had interests, financial interests, that aligned with the Clintons. So, you know, we've seen problematic pardons, but we've never seen something like January 6th. We've never seen the attempt by force to overthrow a legitimate election. And arguably the voters already endorse that on November 5th. And certainly that's a green light for that kind of behavior moving forward.

[Jane Coston]

Why does the president have this ability to unilaterally make someone's criminal convictions or the threat of prosecution go away like this? Because it doesn't seem very democratic. Like, the president gets to overrule both the legislative branch, which writes the laws, and the judicial branch, which interprets and applies those laws 100%.

[Kim Whaley]

That's absolutely right. It is a relic of an unlimited monarchy. And what's an unlimited monarchy? It's based on what's called the divine right of kings. The notion is that the king is directly ordained as king from God, from the divine. And so they are Justice. The framers of the Constitution debated whether to include the pardon power. But ultimately, Alexander Hamilton in federalist number 74 and also James Madison believed that there needed to be the ability to exercise mercy when the criminal justice system goes awry. And they believed the need to act swiftly could only be addressed by a single person that to put that power in a legislature or to put that power in a committee would slow it down. But remember, you know, at common law England, there was no jury trial, right? Until the 12th or 13th century, there were no rights for criminal defendants. There was no fourth, fifth, Sixth Amendment. There weren't appeals, and there wasn't a full blown federal judicial system at the time of the framing of the Constitution either. And all those framers sort of knew each other. You know, it was all white men that had money and they all knew who was going to be in office. And I think they trusted each other to use that kind of power judiciously and with integrity. And we're just not there anymore. We don't have our political figures across the federal system marching forward to democracy. Half of them are embracing authoritarianism blatantly, obviously. And that is what Donald Trump seems to be promising for the next presidency. So this use of the pardon power. It's almost been laying in wait for someone like Donald Trump to just seize its reigns as he's seizing other aspects of American democracy.

[Jane Coston]

Let's get into how people are trying to respond to that, because Trump also says that everyone who sat on the House panel that investigated January 6th should be in jail because he loves threatening people. And that ties into reporting that the White House is weighing preemptive pardons for people they think Trump may go after. How significant is the idea of a preemptive pardon?

[Kim Whaley]

First of all, let me just state that preemptive pardon is a new term that's kind of come up in the last week, and I think it's really misunderstood. A better term might be protective pardon or safe harbor pardon. But just so folks are clear, this would be pardoning for conduct that already occurred, and it wouldn't be novel in that. You know, you mentioned the pardon of Richard Nixon. Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for all crimes committed during a period of time in the past, not actual crimes that were indicted or in which someone was convicted, which is a typical pardon. So what Joe Biden would be doing is something similar to what Gerald Ford did or Jimmy Carter did for draft dodgers. And, of course, he did the same thing effectively with his son Hunter last week. He immunized him from additional charges for a particular period of time there. There's been a lot of debate about this, and I have come down on the side that I think he should seriously consider these pardons. And I would endorse some measure of an immunity pardon, because what you've laid out is novel. It's never happened before that a president has promised to use the massive power of the Justice Department, of the FBI, maybe even of the military to go after political enemies. I mean, that is a brand new thing. And the Supreme Court and the immunity ruling this summer put gas in that tank, said, if you do that, guess what? No. No one can touch you. The critiques of this are, well, you're green lighting Donald Trump to do the same thing. My response is he was going to do that anyway. If you could stave off some trauma for innocent people, and these would be innocent people, if you could save the country, people who did not support Donald Trump for president, the trauma of watching those trials and investigations unfold. I think it's important to use the power of the presidency for good in this moment, even if there are downsides, even if it's an imperfect solution.

[Jane Coston]

But would such a pardon actually stop the Trump administration from trying to prosecute his Quote, unquote, enemies in some way, even if it's just in the court of public opinion.

[Kim Whaley]

No, it would not stop doxing on X, which has already started with Milan Musk for career people in the federal government that are just doing their jobs. It would not stop the attempt to prosecute some of these people. It would give someone the ability to go to a judge and get an order stopping the federal government from following Donald Trump's directives.

[Jane Coston]

What do you think it signals about our democracy that one president feels like he may need to protectively pardon people who haven't done anything wrong in order to protect them from the next president?

[Kim Whaley]

I wonder if this is one of the reasons why there's been such a backlash even against the Hunter Biden pardon and this. People across the political spectrum are outraged. And I think it's a couple things. One is that there's an expectation that Joe Biden just always is very conservative in how he uses his power, even though this is what he would do is completely constitutional. It's unseemly. And people have a certain rule, set of rules for Joe Biden and another set of rules for Donald Trump. The question puts your finger on something else, which is it's almost an admission by Joe Biden and that we are heading into this danger zone where people don't really want to believe that Donald Trump could do what he's promised to do. And having Joe Biden take steps to protect people, which he's already done with his son in advance, is the president admitting that this is happening. And I think that is scary for people and sobering for people. Some of us have seen it coming and my view has to be if you've got the lump, you go to the oncologist. Ignoring the lump doesn't make it go away and better to take action early, but it's chilling and terrifying.

[Jane Coston]

Kim, thank you so much for joining me. This has been really helpful.

[Kim Whaley]

Great talking to you. Thank you for having me.

[Jane Coston]

That was my conversation with Kim Whaley. She is a professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law and author of the book Pardon Power. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. Water Day is brought to you by Boox. Get a head start on your gift giving with farm fresh flowers from the Boox Company. Their flowers are cut fresh and sourced directly from the best flower farms. So you'll get a beautiful bouquet that lasts. I love bouks because I love fresh flowers and I love sending fresh flowers to myself. The flowers were beautiful. They were so fresh and they lasted for two weeks. It was super easy to order and I would do it again. In fact, I probably will. So go to books.com and use code WAD that's B O U Q S promo code WAD Boox promo code WAD this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. The holiday season is supposedly the most wonderful time of the year, but scheduling conflicts, expenses, family drama, it can take a toll. It's important not to lose sight of your mental well being. BetterHelp Online therapy is a great way to get into therapy. BetterHelp is designed to be convenient, flexible and built around your schedule. Fill out a questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist that fits your needs and preferences. Visit betterhelp.com wad today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.com wad wadaday is brought to you by DeleteMe. So much of your personal data is out there on the Internet for anyone to see. Even information about your family members, all being compiled by data brokers and sold online. All this data hanging out on the Internet can have serious consequences. That's why you should gift a DeleteMe subscription to a loved one. I know just how anxiety inducing it can be to have loved ones online sharing information in a way that is not very safe. That's why it's been so important for me to get as many of my family members on Delete Me so that at least that's one thing I don't have to worry about today. Get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to joindelete me.com wad and use promo code WAD at checkout. And now the news head of lines.

[Kristen Welker]

The 14th Amendment, though, says that, quote, all persons born in the United States are citizens. Can you get around the 14th Amendment with an executive action?

[Donald Trump]

Well, we're going to change. We maybe have to go back to the people, but we have to end it. We're the only country that has it.

[Kristen Welker]

Through an executive action.

[Donald Trump]

You know, we're the only country that has it.

[Jane Coston]

Donald Trump doubled down on several bananas claims on Sunday in that Meet the Press interview, Trump promised to end birthright citizenship and told host Kristen Welker the US Is the only country to allow it. But the World Population Review says more than 30 countries have unrestricted birthright citizenship, including Our closest neighbors, Canada and Mexico. Also, when he says have to go back to the people, he means change the Constitution, which would require 38 of the 50 states to ratify. So probably not. Trump also went back and forth with Welker over his proposed tariffs against America's three biggest trading partners.

[Kristen Welker]

Economists of all stripes say that ultimately, consumers pay the price of tariffs.

[Donald Trump]

I don't believe.

[Kristen Welker]

Can you guarantee American families won't pay more?

[Donald Trump]

I can't guarantee anything. I can't guarantee tomorrow.

[Jane Coston]

But then Trump went on to claim the tariffs he enacted in his first term, quote, cost Americans nothing.

[Donald Trump]

They made a great economy for us. They also solve another problem. If we were going to have problems having to do with wars and having to do with other things, tariffs. I have stopped wars with tariffs.

[Jane Coston]

What the fuck are you talking about? Time and time again, studies, including a bipartisan one from the federal government, found Americans paid nearly the entire cost of Trump's tariffs on China in 2018. But, like Trump, must have figured out a plan to address the nation's health care, right? No.

[Kristen Welker]

You said during the campaign you had concepts of a plan. Do you have an actual plan at this point for healthcare?

[Donald Trump]

Yes, we have concepts of a plan that would be better.

[Jane Coston]

At least now Americans have concepts of what to expect from Trump once he takes office for a second term. The U.S. department of Agriculture says the nation's milk supply must be tested for bird flu. The department issued a federal order Friday. Among the new mandates, it requires dairy farmers, milk transporters, and processing centers to share raw milk samples with the USDA upon request. Bird flu was first detected in dairy cows back in March, and since then, the government says hundreds of herds in more than a dozen states have been affected in recent weeks. The disease was found in raw milk products from a California farm. Those products were pulled off shelves. But bird flu has been devastating the country's poultry farms for years now, with more than 100 million birds affected in the last two years. Dozens of people have contracted the virus, too, this year, mostly people who work directly with poultry and livestock. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says the risk of wider spread among humans is still low and that there have been no reports of bird flu spreading between people. But scientists worry the more the disease spreads, the more it could evolve and become more dangerous. And in other news about your food, the color of some of your favorite treats might change soon. The Food and Drug Administration is considering banning the popular food dye known as Red 3. Red 3 is used in almost 3,000 food products, from peeps to bubble gum and, like all food dyes, only exists to market products. The Senate Health, Education, labor and Pensions Committee held a hearing last week where senators grilled top FDA officials over what the FDA has done to address the diabetes and obesity epidemics in the United States. During the hearing, Alabama Senator Tommy Tuberville asked FDA Deputy Commissioner Jim Jones about Red 3.

[Kim Whaley]

Red 3 has been known to cause.

[Tommy Vitor]

Cancer in cosmetics, but we still allow.

[Jane Coston]

It to be put in our food. I don't understand that.

[Tommy Vitor]

Go ahead. So Red 3, we have a petition in front of us to revoke the authorization for it, and we are hopeful that within the next few weeks we will actually we will be acting on that petition and a decision should be forthcoming.

[Jane Coston]

The GOP cares about food safety now. Fun Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris held its first mass on Sunday after being partially destroyed by a fire in 2019. The centuries old cathedral has been under construction for five years, and the restoration effort received almost a billion dollars in donations. 2,500 people attended the mass and watched the consecration of the building's new altar. Guests included French President Emmanuel Macron, First Lady Joe Biden, and Donald Trump. On Saturday, the cathedral was officially reopened to the public in a ceremony that included a standing ovation for the first responders who put out the fire. And that's the news. One more thing. Thousands of people took to the streets in Syria on Sunday to celebrate the end of President Bashar al Assad's regime. Rebel forces captured the country's capital city of Damascus on Sunday. They were led by an Islamist militant group known as Hayat Tahrir Asham, or hts, and they declared victory on national television just hours after government troops withdrew.

[Tommy Vitor]

With the help of God, the city of Damascus was liberated and the regime.

[Jane Coston]

Of the tyrant Bashar al Assad was toppled.

[Tommy Vitor]

All prisoners from the prisons of the regime were liberated.

[Jane Coston]

These rebels shocked the world when they launched a new offensive against Assad's government just two weeks ago. They quickly swept through the country and seized control of major cities like Aleppo and Hama one by one. And everything came to a head on Sunday when Assad reportedly fled to Russia and effectively surrendered. For a lot of folks, this might be the first time you've thought about Syria in a while, but this raging conflict has been going on for a long time. Assad's family has ruled Syria for 50 years, the last 13 of which were defined by his ruthless actions during the country's civil war. Hundreds of thousands of Syrians have died, and millions more have been forced to flee their homes because of Him. To talk about how we got here and what's next, I called up Tommy Vitor, co host of Crooked's Pod Save the World. Tommy, welcome back to Water day.

[Tommy Vitor]

Hey, good to see you.

[Jane Coston]

So this didn't just happen out of thin air. How did we get here? And what can you tell us about Bashar Al Assad's regime?

[Tommy Vitor]

Bashar Al Assad is one of the most brutal, evil dictators in modern history. By some accounts, killed between 300,000 and 600,000 of his own people in this civil war. He inherited the job of dictator of Syria from his father, who was also a brutal man who came to power in a coup. So he is a truly awful person. But you're right. I mean, this is a story that there's sort of like two different periods that we could talk about this last two weeks in the last 13 years. You tell me where you want to start.

[Jane Coston]

Well, I think that as Crooked's foreign policy guy, who knows way more than the average person, were you just as surprised as the rest of us to see Saud's government crumble so quickly? Because I was like, I remember when the civil war began in, like, 2011, 2012, and they just kept going and going and going and going. And then the last two weeks, it was like, oh, they're nearly at Damascus. Oh, Assad's gone.

[Tommy Vitor]

It was shocking to me. I mean, I think there's some analysts who watch this really closely who maybe weren't surprised, but I think most of the world was. I think what happened was, over the years, the Assad regime was hollowed out. They were not bringing in revenue. They were not paying their soldiers well. So his power base really went down and down. And then Assad's benefactors were the Iranians and the Russians. The Russians got bogged down in Ukraine and were not able to come to his aid. The Iranians got bogged down in Lebanon and the war in Gaza. And all these Shia militia groups that the Iranians had sent into Syria to get Assad's back were just not able to save him this time. Also, what happened was Assad just managed to piss off basically everyone in the region diplomatically over the past many years, especially Erdogan in Turkey and the Turks, I think, decided over time that they were going to arm groups in northwest Syria as a hedge against these Kurdish forces in northeastern Syria that they view as a mortal enemy. And HTS is one of those groups. And they made this amazing dash to Damascus over the last two weeks.

[Jane Coston]

So now they have control of the country. Who are they and what's on their agenda?

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, great question. HTS is this kind of amalgam of opposition groups. They are led by Abu Mohammed Al Jilani. He's this 42 year old. His grandparents were from the Golan Heights. They were driven out. He moved back to Syria as a boy. He slowly became radicalized over time, including in the second intifada in the year 2000. He fought in Iraq. He was briefly held by the US At Camp Bucca, which is a prison there. And over time, he pledged allegiance to isis. He pledged allegiance to Al Qaeda. He founded the Al Nusra Front in Syria, but says he did an interview with CNN the other day where he says that he has moderated. He has renounced these transnational terrorist organizations and now wants to lead in a way that's Islamist in nature, that respects the rights of minorities, that doesn't want to attack the US or other Western countries. We don't know if he's sincere about that. We don't know if this was pr, if he's truly moderated his views. We don't even know if he'll be in charge in a few weeks, if not a few years. So there's a lot of open questions.

[Jane Coston]

How has the international community reacted to the news? Which countries have something to gain or lose now that Assad has been overthrown?

[Tommy Vitor]

So the Russians lost a lot. They lost a major naval port. They lost an air base in Syria. I mean, they could maybe keep control in some way, but Assad was their guy, so they lost their guy. The Iranians lost a key ally in Syria. I think the Israelis are probably pretty nervous. They went from kind of a wary detente with Assad to potentially an Islamist government right on their border. So I think they're watching with some trepidation. But I think the big winner here are all these Syrian families who now know the fate of their loved ones or hopefully will or had them released from prison. And these millions of Syrian refugees who had to either be internally displaced from their homes and can maybe go back to Damascus or a city like Aleppo and get their life back, or the many who went to Europe or other countries and now are living abroad and want to come home. So those people hopefully will be the big winners here. Of course, we don't know how this story is going to end. This is sort of one chapter of the Syrian civil war ending.

[Jane Coston]

I think a lot of people, including Donald Trump, are saying that the US should not get involved. Is that likely? And how would U.S. involvement lack of involvement change things.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, so the U.S. is involved. I mean, U.S. central Command bombed a bunch of ISIS targets in central Syria on Sunday, dozens of them, in fact. The US has troops in Syria. You have troops in Jordan. We have worked a lot with these Kurdish forces to combat isis. I guess time will tell if Trump decides to bring those troops home. But I think it is absolutely a good thing that this decapitation of Assad happened by Syrians because they wanted it to happen and not because of some US Intervention. But I do think there is going to be a moment for the international community to help the country with some desperate economic needs, with a political process, with caring for refugees who decide to return home. And I do hope there is a place for economic support from Europe and the US and also diplomatic support.

[Jane Coston]

Tommy, as always, thank you for being here.

[Tommy Vitor]

Thanks for having me.

[Jane Coston]

That was my conversation with Tommy Vitor, co host of Crooked's Pod Save the World, to dive deeper into this historic moment and what it means for the rest of the world. Listen to the new special episode of Pod Save the World out today, where Tommy and his co host Ben Rhodes break it all down before we go. As we approach a new presidency, it's time to get real about tough conversations. This week on offline, StoryCorps founder Dave Isay joins Jon Favreau to talk about the power of engaging with people you disagree with and why taking debates online sometimes lacks what we need. They also dive into the surprising outcomes of One Small Step, an initiative that has Republicans and Democrats interviewing each other and explore why these conversations could be the key to moving forward. Tune into Offline now on their own YouTube channel. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe. Leave a Review Be glad you're not one of the astronauts who have been in space for six months and have two more months to go because it's too risky to bring them back earlier and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just about how actually the astronauts are being really chill about whole thing, saying it's just an unexpected detour into the vastness of evil space. And quote, living in space is super fun. Like me, what a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and [e-mail] subscribe I'm Jane Coston and let's be clear. No space, no caves, no mountain peaks, no sinkholes. And seriously, no space. What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producer is Raven Yamamoto Our producer is Michelle Eloy. We had production help today from Tyler Hill, Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters and Julia Clare. Our senior producer is Eric Morrison and our Executive producer is Adrian Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka.

[Tommy Vitor]

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