Loading summary
Transcript16 lines
- [00:00]
A
It would be consistent with this administration's other policies if part of the rationale was to erode the foundations of black mobility, to erode the foundation of the accumulation of black wealth and opportunity, social, political, economic. And the more that you decimate the sort of ecosystem of black soldiers and black officers within the military, I think the more you decimate an institution that has served as a mechanism for people to move up socially across generations.
- [00:46]
B
I'm Jane Coston, and this is what a day. The show that's wishing you a happy Juneteenth. I am not at work today because it's Juneteenth. And that's the point of Juneteenth. Thanks for making us a part of your holiday. We've got a great conversation for you. Juneteenth is a holiday to celebrate the end of slavery in the United States and the emancipation of millions of black Americans held in human bondage. People like my great great grandparents, their grandson, my grandfather, Oscar Coston, served his country during World War II as part of a segregated unit that landed on Omaha beach during D Day. He won two Bronze stars, but always felt as if his country never respected what he sacrificed. Today, nearly 80 years since the US military was officially desegregated, 20% of the armed forces are black. But since President Donald Trump returned to the White House, the administration has made it crystal clear that black service members are not to be treated with respect. And while many have made the decision to leave the military, others have decided to stay. So to talk about the impact the Trump administration has had on black members of the military, I spoke to Clint Smith. He's a staff writer at the Atlantic. Clint, welcome to Water Day.
- [01:58]
A
It's good to be here.
- [01:59]
B
You open your piece with the story of Daniel Chappie James Jr. The first black four star general in any US military branch. After Trump signed an executive order last year gutting DEI programs across the federal government, people noticed a painting of James Jr had been taken down from. From its spot in the Pentagon. What, if any, explanation was given for the removal?
- [02:22]
A
Well, there wasn't much of an explanation for the removal initially. Initially, they said that it had not been taken down, which was contrary to my reporting and my sources in the Pentagon. And so then we went back to their team at the Pentagon and said, well, we know that that's not true. And then they said it was moved to the fourth floor from the fifth floor, which we also know hadn't been the case. And then they, we asked what the timeline was, and then they said it had been moved long before. And they were like, we know that's not the case. And then they said, it's been in the last two to three weeks that it's been placed there. And so this is over the course of, you know, a week or so of conversation. So for me, it was my first experience engaging the Pentagon in this way. And being the level of gaslighting, the level of bad faith that exists from the institution at the moment kind of further reinforced so much of what I found in the reporting from so many black officers, the way that they are lied to, that they have their records and their statements and their positions misrepresented. And I think it gave me a sneak peek into what I imagine so many folks in the military are experiencing right now from a lot of these political appointees.
- [03:42]
B
You spoke with numerous currently enlisted civilian and retired black members of the military across the armed forces. What did they tell you about how the administration has been working to delegitimize and diminish their work?
- [03:53]
A
Well, I think, you know, for a lot of them, it's been this really sort of difficult experience that has led to a sort of cognitive dissonance. And what I mean by that is these are folks who have dedicated their lives to serving this country. Oftentimes many of these folks are the second, third, fourth generation in their family to serve in the military. And they are operating in a context in which a sort of rhetoric and policies that are from a different era, that are from, frankly, a Jim Crow era, are being sort of reinstituted and concretized within the federal government and within the military. And so they are experiencing a sense of disillusionment. They're experiencing a sense of distress. They're experiencing a feeling of wanting to escape, of wanting to extract themselves from this. And many of them have. I mean, what's true is that so many people have retired early. So many people have retired earlier than they otherwise would have. So many people who would have otherwise considered a career in the military are now deciding not to go into the military and to go into other sectors of society. And so there's folks who are leaving, and then on the other end, there are folks who believe that they have a responsibility to stay. And there are folks who believe my ancestors, whether it be the American Revolution, the Civil war, World War I, World War II, Vietnam, they are people who experienced much worse than us. And they were people who fought while, you know, fleeing from slavery. There are people who fought while in a segregated army. There are people who fought when their family members were being lynched. And so there's this sense that, like my ancestors fought in much more difficult conditions. And I have a responsibility to stay because the people in this administration will be gone and this institution, this military, will still be here. And we want to be the ones to protect the gains that have been made.
- [05:51]
B
Clint, I think that that's why I thought it was so important to talk to you about your piece, because my grandfather fought in a segregated unit that was one of first to land at Utah beach on D Day as part of the 320th balloon barrage unit. There's an all black unit that helped distract enemy fire so that Americans could land on those beaches. And he told his children, my dad and his brother and sister that he didn't care about his medals because he saw how disrespected he was when he came home. But after World War II, after the desegregation of the armed services by then President Harry Truman, the Army has been one of the most integrated entities in public life. It has been a place in which so many people have seen their. They've been able to thrive and succeed. And this is true for a whole number of groups of people, specifically African Americans. Why is Pete Hegseth trying to change this? Why is Pete Hegseth trying to make an institution that has been one of the best displays of American diversity into something that isn't that why,
- [07:03]
A
you know, I can't get into the head of Peter Hegseth, obviously, but I would not recommend it. But I think, to your point, I think that the military has been one of the, if not the single greatest, other than the federal government itself, catalyst of economic and social mobility for black Americans in this country over the course of the past century. Plus, it would be consistent with this administration's other policies if they were. If part of the rationale was to erode the foundations of black mobility, to erode the foundation of the accumulation of black wealth and opportunity, social, political, economic. And the more that you decimate the sort of ecosystem of black soldiers and black officers within the military, I think the more you decimate an institution that has served as a mechanism for people to move up socially across generations. I think also Pete Hegseth has demonstrated that he simply does not believe that black people are smart enough, are capable enough, are intellectually and emotionally equipped enough to be officers, high ranking officers, specifically in the US Military. And he demonstrates that by preventing men and, you know, so it's black, black military officers, but also women, but also Native Americans, but also people from all manner of different backgrounds who are not straight white men. He believes that if they are somehow in a position of authority and power, specifically within the military, that the only reason that they're in that position is because of an affirmative action policy or because they were lifted up and put in that position almost in a tokenized way, rather than it being reflective of their actual capacity, their actual commitment, their actual intellect, their actual track record. And I think that that's one of the things that I've found that is so hard for a lot of these folks to stomach. It's this calling into question of the quality of their service, calling into question the years and the decades of what they've given this country, the sacrifices they've made, the deployments they've been on. And for someone to suggest that that is not enough and that they are not enough to be leaders within this military is disheartening isn't enough to capture it. It's existential for many of them.
- [09:40]
B
We'll get back to my conversation with Clint Smith in a moment on this Juneteenth holiday. But if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a 5 star review on Spotify and Apple podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads What a Day is brought to you by bookshop.org would you be surprised to learn that we're living in a resurgence of independent bookstores? More than a thousand new stores have opened in the last five years. Independent bookstores do more than sell books they take care of and pour back into their communities, creating safe spaces that foster culture, curiosity and a love of reading. When you purchase from bookshop.org, you're supporting more than 3,000 local independent bookstores so they can continue their essential work. I just picked up historian Antony Bevor's new book on Rasputin and it's fantastic. Use code WAD to get 10% off your next order at bookshop.org that's 10% off at bookshop.org with code WAD. What a Day is brought to you by Bilt. We can all agree that housing is expensive. Rent, mortgage, it doesn't matter which one you're paying. It stings every month, but BILT can make it feel a little better. Let me explain. BILT started out rewarding members on their rent. Now, as of 2026, BILT members can also earn points on mortgage payments wherever they live. Every housing payment earns you points you can use towards flights with top travel partners like United in Hyatt, Lyft rides, Amazon.com purchases and so much more. Personally, I'd redeem my points for fitness classes, but here's what I think is the most underrated part. BILT members also get access to a neighborhood concierge. It can make restaurant reservations, book fitness classes, and find new local spots, all while being rewarded at more than 45,000 merchant partners. It's like having a personal assistant baked into where you live. It's simple. Being a renter and now owning a home is better with Bilt. Join the membership for where you live at joinbuilt.com wade that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com wad make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Let's get back to my conversation with Clint Smith. I'm curious. You mentioned earlier that there are some service members who are staying in the military. Who a military run by leaders who do not think that they belong there. Did you see a common thread in how they're thinking about this, how they're reconciling? Because I hear the idea that me or people who look like me aren't good enough. And my first thought is, I'll show you I am. And I think that that's been something that's been true throughout the history of African Americans, is that you tell us that we can't do something and we'll do it and we'll do it better than anybody else has and we'll do. And then we'll be really loud about it. Like, is that something that you heard from service members who are like, I know what they're thinking about me, but I'm gonna stay and prove that they're wrong.
- [12:37]
A
Yeah, a few things on that. I think. One, I think it's important to name the sort of heterogeneity of black people that exist within the world. But you know that heterogeneity is also reflected in the military. And so you have a lot of different people with different perspectives. Again, some believe they want to get out of there as soon as possible. Some want to stay. Some want to put their head down and be qu. Some want to speak out. But what is consistent is this feeling that I think many people beyond the military in black life, you know, and this is something we've been told by our parents and our grandparents. The old adage, you have to work twice as hard to get half as half as far. And so, you know, I think there is this sense from some where to your point, like I'm Going to put my head down, I'm going to keep going, I'm going to show them and I'm going to show Hegseth that I deserve to be here. But more broadly, I think a universal thing is this sense. And one of the officers I spoke to basically said, like, we built this country, like our ancestors built this country. 200,000 black soldiers fought on behalf of the Union in the Civil War. Hundreds of thousands of black soldiers fought for this country against fascism during World War II. And you can go on and on with all of every single war. And beyond the military, obviously the history of enslavement in terms of creating the economic capital that made this country possible. And so there's this ancestral feeling, this sort of tapping into this sense of this is mine, right? And I think one of the officers that I quote in the piece said he's like, I've got too much invested in this thing. Like my ancestors built this thing, we built this thing. And I'm not going to let somebody come in and tear down what we built. So I'm going to keep going because again, I'm going to be here long after they are gone. But it's hard. At the same time, the thing is, I don't think there is anything that any person can do to demonstrate to Pete Hegseth that they are worthy of being a four or five star general. He fundamentally believes that that is not possible, that black people assume these sorts of positions. And so I actually think that most of them are not necessarily trying to prove it to Hegseth or try to prove it to Hyzilc, but are trying to do it for the younger soldiers who are coming after them. Right. Like I'm going to stay and demonstrate what it means to be a good soldier, even when the people we are fighting against ostensibly, or the people we are up against, when the antagonists are not the enemies abroad, but are the people who are at the top of our own Pentagon. And so it is this, this feeling again of a sort of cognitive dissonance of wanting to stay, of wanting to go, of wanting to prove something to others, of wanting to prove things to themselves. But. But I think right now people are leaning a lot on one another and there's a sense of solidarity among black service members that they are trying to use as a way to. To move forward and keep the ship steady until this administration is no longer there.
- [15:41]
B
I think that that actually gets to a question I was thinking about, which is not only are older generations in the military trying to be an Example to younger black service members. I'm sure they're offering advice or as much advice as they can. What are you hearing them offer to younger black service members who are trying to decide whether to stay in the military and build a career there, or, as you said, like to get out because of what's going on.
- [16:05]
A
The consensus that I've heard is that many of the folks. So as you know, with family members in the military, once you get past 20 years, it triggers the opportunity to get a pension, which you receive for the rest of your life. And the longer you stay after those 20 years, the more money you get when you eventually retire. So most of the retirements that I've encountered are from people who have gotten past the 20 years, and they would have stayed to 25 years, 30 years, 35 years, 40 years. But because they had already triggered the pension, that is in many ways the incentive for so many people who are joining the military beyond obviously fighting for your country. A lot of those folks are deciding, you know, what I did my 20 years, it's not worth it. But what they are telling the younger folks who've not yet gotten past their 20 years is you need to stay here. Not only because it's important for you to be able to reach this 20 years because of the opportunity it affords you for intergenerational wealth, the opportunity it affords you to achieve different levels of social and economic mobility, but also because if every single person who wants to leave leaves, then nobody's gonna be left. And so much of life as a black member of the military is tied to the mentorship and the relationships that people develop while they're on base abroad, while they're at base camp, while they're deployed. And those relationships, like a senior officer mentoring a second year soldier, are the things that allow that second year soldier to believe that something else is possible for them within this military. And if all of the folks are gone, then it means that there are less people to serve as mentors, less people to give guidance and help navigate what is a really sort of difficult system in terms of promotions and further opportunities. And so I think people are saying to stay the course, but also to listen to your own moral conscious, like, don't. If you are asked to do something that is fundamentally against your core moral, ethical, spiritual beliefs, then obviously you have the right to step away. But as long as you're not asked to be doing something that crosses a sort of red line, an ethical red line for you. They say again, like Pete Hegseth, Donald Trump. They're not going to be here forever. You'll be here a lot longer than they will. You just got to keep going.
- [18:38]
B
Clint, thank you so much for joining me.
- [18:41]
A
Thanks for having me.
- [18:42]
B
That was my conversation with Clint Smith, staff writer at the Atlantic. We'll link to his piece in the show. Notes before we go looking for a quick break from political news, why not turn your attention towards pop culture with Crooked's podcast? Keep It. This week, Louis Virtel's guests include the New York Times pop culture columnist Kyle Buchanan and the ever charismatic comedian Matt Rogers. You'll hear about Olivia Rodrigo's new album, Spielberg's new alien movie, and more. Keep it comes out Every Wednesday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe. Leave a Review Celebrate the 25th Army Corps today and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just about a quick history lesson, Abraham Lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation in 1863. But in Texas, even after the Civil War ended, many slave owners refused to free their enslaved workers until the 25th Army Corps showed up in June of 1865. Made up of more than 1,000 black soldiers, the 25th captured Galveston, Texas, chased the remaining Confederates into Mexico, and shared the news that slavery was finally over. Like me, what a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe@cricket.com subscribe I'm Jane Coston, and the day that Major General Gordon Granger announced the end of slavery in Texas was June 19, 1865. As in Juneteenth, what a Day is a production of Crooked Media. Our show was produced by Kaitlyn Plummer, Emily Foer, Erica Morrison, and Adrienne Hill. Our teenager includes Haley Jones, Greg Walters, Matt Berg, Joseph Dutra, Johanna Case, and Desmond Taylor. Our music is by Kyle Murdoch and Jordan Cantor. We had help today from the Associated Press. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.