How Trump's Chaos Is Becoming Normal

Summary

What A Day Podcast Summary: "How Trump's Chaos Is Becoming Normal"

Release Date: June 2, 2025
Host: Jane Coston
Guest: M. Gessen, New York Times Opinion Columnist

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Introduction: The New Normal of Chaos

In the opening segment, Jane Coston sets the stage by acknowledging the unprecedented turmoil since President Donald Trump resumed office in January. She highlights Trump's aggressive policies that have disrupted the global trading system, challenged constitutional rights, targeted educational institutions, and undermined humanitarian efforts. Jane reflects on the collective exhaustion and the coping mechanisms people have adopted, such as reducing news intake and distancing from social media. She introduces M. Gessen to delve deeper into the phenomenon of normalizing chaos.

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Conversation with M. Gessen: Normalizing Autocracy

Parallels with Russia Under Putin

• Initial Shock to Routine:
  M. Gessen discusses how the initial shock of autocratic measures gradually fades, leading to a disturbing sense of normalcy.
  “It's always hard to write about recognizing something that you've experienced before... the shock wears off and the rise of autocracy can feel routine.” [03:02]

• Human Resilience and Downfall:
  Gessen explains that while human resilience allows people to adapt, it also leads to complacency in the face of deteriorating freedoms.
  “We have a normalcy bias where we will normalize things that are not normal... so we feel like we can work through everyday life.” [05:00]

Trump’s Multi-Front Attacks vs. Traditional Autocracies

• Simultaneous Policy Shifts:
  Unlike traditional autocracies that implement changes gradually, Trump’s administration attacks multiple fronts simultaneously, overwhelming the public’s capacity to react.
  “Every other autocracy that I've written about has been kind of gradual and very sequential, but this is like everything all at once.” [05:40]

• Analogy to Wartime Society:
  Gessen likens the current climate to living in a war zone where constant shifts in the front lines lead to routine adaptation.
  “It's like living in a country at war... people just kind of go on living.” [06:00]

Cultural Lessons and Resistance

• American and Russian Similarities:
  Gessen points out that both American and Russian cultures have a tendency to sacrifice for the greater good, which Trump exploits by promising stability amidst chaos.
  “Trump... is tapping into that... the sentiment of we need to sacrifice for the greater good is really ingrained in the culture.” [07:33]

• Role of Journalists:
  Emphasizing the importance of journalism, Gessen advocates for creating a historical record and forging emotional connections to combat desensitization.
  “One challenge is to create a record... the other is to try to break through this sense of disconnection and familiarity.” [09:45]

Impact on Society and Individual Thought

• Normalization Leading to Simplification:
  As autocratic measures become routine, society becomes less complex and more susceptible to simplistic, bad ideas.
  “We are going to normalize this stuff because it's becoming normal... as a species, we're survivors.” [11:33]

• Call to Action:
  Gessen urges society to resist the normalization of autocracy to reclaim a vision of the future and maintain societal freedoms.
  “The goal is to not lose everything and to resist it so that we're able to reclaim a vision of the future.” [12:28]

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Current Events: Ukraine’s Operation Spider’s Web

Jane transitions to significant geopolitical developments, focusing on Ukraine’s massive drone attack on Russian air bases, termed Operation Spider’s Web.

• Details of the Attack:
  Ukraine claims to have destroyed dozens of Russian bombers using over 100 drones, showcasing a highly coordinated and large-scale operation.
  “This is the single largest attack that we've seen in one day across multiple military air bases inside Russia since the war began in February of 2022.” [16:51]

• Zelenskyy’s Involvement:
  President Volodymyr Zelenskyy personally supervised the operation and remains actively engaged in peace talks scheduled with Russia in Istanbul.
  “Zelenskyy personally supervised the attack.” [17:15]

• Russia’s Retaliation and Continued Conflict:
  Despite Ukraine's strike, Russia persists with its military actions in Ukraine, including its largest airstrike in three years.
  “Russia also continued its attacks on Ukraine over the weekend and last week launched its largest airstrike in the three-year war.” [17:15]

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Trump’s Tariffs and Legal Battles

Jane shifts focus to the ongoing economic tensions involving President Trump’s tariff policies.

• Legal Challenges to Tariffs:
  Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick defends Trump’s authority to impose tariffs, even after a federal appeals court blocked a lower court ruling that deemed the tariffs unauthorized under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA).
  “We have other alternatives that we could pursue as well to make sure that we make America trade fair again.” [18:11]

• Misleading Statements from Officials:
  Kevin Hassett, Director of the National Economic Council, made inaccurate claims comparing fentanyl deaths to American war casualties, which a fact-check revealed as incorrect.
  “We will have other alternatives to make sure that we make America trade fair again.” [19:03]

• Trump’s Escalation of Tariffs:
  Trump announced plans to double tariffs on aluminum and steel, further straining international trade relations.
  “President Donald Trump keeps threatening new tariffs... planning to double existing tariffs on aluminum and steel.” [19:28]

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Immigration Policies: Supreme Court’s Ruling

The Supreme Court’s decision to allow the Trump administration to end deportation protections for approximately half a million migrants is discussed.

• Scope of the Ruling:
  The ruling affects migrants from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela who are in the U.S. under the Biden-era humanitarian parole program.
  “The Supreme Court Friday allowed the Trump administration to end temporary legal status for roughly half a million migrants from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela.” [19:28]

• Dissenting Opinion:
  Justices Ketanji Brown Jackson and Sonia Sotomayor dissented, highlighting the severe personal consequences for migrants awaiting legal claims.
  “...the devastating consequences of allowing the government to precipitously upend the lives and livelihoods of nearly half a million noncitizens while their legal claims are pending.” [20:51]

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Senator Joni Ernst’s Medicaid Cuts Controversy

Lastly, Jane covers Republican Senator Joni Ernst’s controversial remarks on Medicaid cuts during a town hall in Iowa.

• Insensitive Remarks:
  Senator Ernst dismissed constituents' concerns about Medicaid cuts by stating, “People are not well. We all are going to die.” [20:59] This response was widely criticized for its lack of empathy.

• Public Backlash and Apology:
  In response to backlash, Ernst posted a sarcastic apology video on Instagram, further alienating her constituents by trivializing their concerns.
  “People are going to die and I made an incorrect assumption that everyone in the auditorium understood that yes, we are all going to perish from this earth.” [21:37]

• Economic Impact of Proposed Cuts:
  Government analysis indicates that millions of Americans could lose health insurance due to the proposed Medicaid cuts, exacerbating healthcare access issues.
  “Government's own independent analysis says millions of Americans will lose access to health insurance under the proposed cuts.” [22:19]

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Conclusion: Coping with Normalized Chaos

Jane Coston wraps up the episode by reflecting on the pervasive normalization of chaos within the Trump administration's policies. With insights from M. Gessen, listeners are urged to recognize the dangers of complacency and the importance of active resistance to preserve democratic freedoms and societal well-being.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections as per the request.

Transcript

[Jane Coston]

It's Monday, June 2nd. I'm Jane Coston, and this is what a day. The show that says Happy Pride Month and says it really, really, really loudly. On today's show, the Supreme Court says the Trump administration can temporarily lift deportation protections for around half a million migrants. And Iowa Republican Senator Joni Ernst downplays worries that her party's proposed cuts to Medicaid could kill people because we're all going to die. But first, can you believe it's already June? And I don't mean that in the, like, very lame way people over the age of 30 try to make small talk at parties or with their co workers. I mean, genuinely, so much has happened since President Donald Trump took office again in January. It somehow feels like that was both a lifetime ago and just yesterday. In that time, Trump has unilaterally thrown the global trading system into chaos. He's tried to end the constitutional right of birthright citizenship. His administration has attacked universities by stripping away billions in federal grants and also going after international students. It's put tens of thousands of federal workers out of jobs, defied court orders on immigration, eviscerated global humanitarian aid distribution. I could keep going, but I won't because I'm honestly exhausted just thinking about it. And you probably are, too. But by now you've also probably figured out how to cope with it all to some extent. Maybe you've dialed back your news intakes to preserve your sanity, or you're trying to spend more time with friends and family, or just off of social media because it just makes you angry. Or maybe you find that you feel less shocked by the day in, day out insanity emanating from Washington, D.C. and that's a normal thing for human beings to do. We're a resilient species. We learn how to cope with a new normal. The chaos becomes familiar in a way, and recedes into just background noise in our brains as we go about school, pickup, making dinner, walking the dog, you know, life. New York Times opinion columnist M. Gessen knows this phenomenon of normalization intimately because they saw it happen in Russia. Gessin was born in Russia. Their family fled in the 80s when Gessen was a teenager. They were living in and reporting in the country when President Vladimir Putin consolidated power starting in the early 2000s. And they're seeing a lot of parallels here in the US to that time period in Russia, not in how Trump is necessarily transforming the American government, but in how the public is responding to it all. First, there's shock, and then over time, fewer and fewer things Surprise us. Just another Monday in America. So I had to speak to M. Gessen about this, about how the Trump administration is counting on all of us normalizing their actions and how we can fight back.

[M. Gessen]

M. Gessen, welcome to what a Day.

Good to be here.

So I wanted to talk to you about your most recent piece for the New York Times opinion section. You start that piece writing about all the times you were shocked living in Russia and reporting on Vladimir Putin's early years in power. But then you talk about how that shock wears off and the rise of autocracy can feel routine. Have you been feeling a lot of deja vu recently?

Oh, where do I begin? Yes. You know, it's always hard to write about recognizing something that you've experienced before, but most of your readers haven't. And so I was trying to capture that feeling. And even at the very beginning of Trump's second term, I was actually sitting down with my best friend, who is also living in exile in New York, hasn't been here that long, and she was kind of going, well, how are we going to live? And I said, well, I guess we're kind of going to live the way we did in Moscow. You know, see a lot of each other, do what we can, prioritize people who are close to us. And she's like, are you just saying we're going to get used to it? And in a way, I guess that's what I was saying.

What do you think it means to.

[Jane Coston]

Get used to autocracy, where you have.

[M. Gessen]

A moment in which things are taking place all the time, but at the same time, you are going to the.

[Jane Coston]

Grocery store, it feels like there's a.

[M. Gessen]

Dissonance inherent to that moment.

There's a huge dissonance inherent to that moment. And, you know, back when I was living in Russia and Putin's autocracy was first taking hold, I remember talking to somebody who said something like, how can things be so bad when we're living so well? And I actually think it's kind of the human condition to we want to stabilize. We will adjust to anything. That's part of what makes us kind of great, because we're as a species, we're survivors. But it also is our huge downfall because just when we're capable of action, just when we emerge from that initial state of shock, instead of mobilizing and actually securing whatever freedoms we can secure, we kind of go, oh, this is okay. I can live with this.

[Jane Coston]

Right?

[M. Gessen]

I think people have a normalcy bias where we will normalize things that are not normal, just so we can make sense of it, just so we feel like we can work through everyday life. And I think something a lot of Americans have talked about is that we have unintentionally and maybe even intentionally become inoculated against the shock of his unpredictability. It's either you lose your mind or you just kind of gain this general inability to be shocked. How does that inability to be shocked serve his government and his interests?

So I think there are two things happening that render us unable to feel shocked. One is just the sheer amount of stuff and the speed at which he's moving. But another is that he started attacking on all the fronts at the same time, which actually isn't familiar to me from anything I've ever seen. Every other autocracy that I've written about has been kind of gradual and very sequential, but this is like everything all at once. And that creates a situation in which nothing is new. In that sense, it's like living in a country at war. And if you've ever reported on wars, something really crazy happens, which is in the first few days, like, literally in the first few days, people just kind of get accustomed to living the way they're living, whether it's without, like, gas and running water and cooking on the sidewalks. The adjustments that they make to this completely unthinkable new situation become totally routinized. And then after a minute, the only people looking at how the front line is shifting are the military analysts. And I feel like that analogy holds for Trump's America, because all the fronts are open, and so the front line's shifting a little bit forward, a little bit back. Somebody gets released, another hundred people get deported. That's just details, right? And so inside this ever shrinking space between and among all the front lines, we just kind of go on living.

I'm curious as to what. First, what you think, what lessons Americans can take from Russian history, but also what can Americans do in this moment, in this political climate, to stay sane, to stay shocked? But what is it that we can't learn from Russia and from Russia's experiences?

Wow, that's such an interesting question. I think there's, like, this larger point of Russians are always, as a culture, ready for sacrifice and ready to say, okay, let's tighten our belts and get through this period of hardship. That's a really easy thing for Russian autocrats to use, because that sentiment of we need to sacrifice for the greater good is really ingrained in the culture, But I actually think it exists in this country. And I think Trump, with his really excellent political instincts is tapping into that. When he says, well, you know, we may have to live through a period of hardship and things may get tougher because of tariffs and girls may have to have fewer dolls, but then things will get better. That's super familiar to me. And that I think taps into what is probably not so culturally specific, which is this tendency of people to substitute a sense of belonging to something great for their personal sense of happiness and well being and private connectedness. So I think with all the differences in culture, this is actually something that Americans could learn from. Russians like to recognize the political appeal of belonging to something great and the really age old trick of totalitarian leaders who are always dangling the carrot of stability while creating greater and greater instability so that people fall into line following this ever dangling carrot.

I want to talk about Gaza and how you write that Gaza is an example of something that once shocked us, but we're now becoming numb to the horrors. After 19 months of war, suffering in Gaza is still in the headlines. We've been talking about the atrocities taking place there on our show. The New York Times is covering it. Does it make a difference if readers aren't receptive to this coverage? If readers aren't the people who are asking for this? What is the role of journalists here, do you think?

Oh, that's, that's, that's a million dollar question. And you know, as somebody who's reported both on Israel, Palestine and on Ukraine, like I know this, the Times is very nice to me and they still let me write about Ukraine and nobody reads it. And yes, the Times has been very committed to covering, on the news side, to covering both Gaza and Ukraine. And I suspect that on the news side, nobody reads it either. So the role of journalists, I think we have two challenges. I think one is to create a record. Even if nobody reads past the headline, if people literally see another entire family wiped out in Gaza and move on to the next story, at least they can ever claim that they didn't know. And the other challenge is to try to break through this sense of disconnection and of familiarity. One thing that I was talking to a colleague the other day about this. Al Jazeera continues to cover Gaza in a passionate way that finds its viewers every day, even though every day the exact same thing happens. And Israeli television continues to cover October 7, 19 months after the fact, and still it finds viewers. And that's because the viewers of both Al Jazeera on the one hand and Israeli television on the other feel a deep emotional connection to what they're covering. And so we just need to try to create those connections to tell that one story that will break through this sense of familiarity.

You write in your column that we are stability seeking creatures and it can feel like an accomplishment to adjust to things. But do you think that in our efforts to seek stability we are giving in to this administration in some way?

Yes, in some way we are. And I think it's inevitable. And I think we have to figure out a way to think about this complexity. This administration, however long it lasts, is going to make us all worse as individuals in a society and as journalists, because in some way we're going to normalize this stuff because it's becoming normal. And as humans we're going to become stupider and more simplistic because our entire society under the influence of this kind of autocracy and this happens everywhere in these kinds of regimes, it becomes stupider because we're constantly engaged with bad ideas. So we know this, we're going to lose some. The goal is to not lose everything and to resist it so that we're able to reclaim a vision of the future and a kind of complexity and a space of freedom.

Em, thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you. This was great.

[Jane Coston]

That was my conversation with Em Gessen, opinion columnist for the New York Times. We'll link to their piece in our show Notes. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads What a Day is Brought to you by Nutrafol Hot days, humid nights and nonstop plans. All that heat can increase hair shedding, while a packed schedule can add stress which can impact your hair. Nutrafol's whole body approach and clinically tested formulas support your hair from within so you can focus on living your best life all summer long. You may have heard of Nutrafol's hair growth supplements and wondered do they actually work? That's a fair question. Many hair supplements overpromise and underdeliver, but Nutrafol is different as the one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. It's trusted by over 1.5 million people and is clinically tested to deliver real results in just three to six months. Everyone's root causes of hair thinning are different, so a one size fits all approach to hair growth doesn't cut it. Nutrafol has multiple formulas designed to give your body what it needs to grow and support your hair's unique needs. Whether you're navigating postpartum menopause, a plant based lifestyle, or simply looking to see less hair, shedding, Nutrafol has you covered. While many supplements rely solely on ingredient studies, Nutrafol clinically tests its final formulations using advanced hair measurement tools like hair counts and pull tests to track real improvements in growth, quality, shedding and texture. And it's not just backed by studies. The research is published in peer reviewed journals and vetted by doctors, ensuring scientific rigor and reliable results. This summer, stop worrying about your hair and start making memories. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. When you go to nutrafol.com and enter the Promo Code Day. Find out why Nutrafol is the best selling hair growth supplement [e-mail], spelled N U T R-A-F O L.com promo code day. That's Nutrafol.com promo summer on the south side of Chicago is heating up and planning revenge on Tiff the Shy is back on Paramount. It's the season of the Women.

[Howard Lutnick]

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[M. Gessen]

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[M. Gessen]

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[Jane Coston]

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[Unnamed Reporter]

Russia has confirmed multiple air bases have come under drone attack in the Murmansk and Irkutsk regions. According to local witnesses, explosions were heard near the base in Murmansk and fires began in several places.

[Jane Coston]

Ukraine claimed it destroyed dozens of Russian military bombers in a massive drone attack deep inside Russian territory over the weekend. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy confirmed the attack in a post on Twitter Sunday. Zelenskyy said the attack, dubbed Operation Spider's Web, required the use of more than 100 drones and took more than a year and a half to plan. Here's more of Al Jazeera's analysis of the attack now.

[Unnamed Reporter]

This is the single largest attack that we've seen in one day across multiple military air bases inside Russia since the war began in February of 2022. What we do know is that these air bases are home to Russia's strategic air bombers that have been involved in launching attacks across Ukraine over the past three years.

[Jane Coston]

Zelenskyy noted the operation's base was located inside Russia next to an fsb or Russian security regional headquarters. An unnamed Ukrainian security source described the operation to the Associated Press. They said the country's forces smuggled the drones inside mobile wooden houses, which were then driven onto trucks into Russian territor. The drones were hidden under the roofs of the houses, the official said. Zelenskyy personally supervised the attack. Just hours earlier, Zelenskyy said Ukraine would be sending a delegation to peace talks with Russia in Istanbul scheduled for today. Russia also continued its attacks on Ukraine over the weekend and last week launched its largest airstrike in the three year war. NewsNation confirmed that President Trump was not aware of Ukraine's attack plan. At the time of our taping late Sunday, President Trump had yet to comment on the strike.

[M. Gessen]

The president's going to win like he always does. But rest assured, tariffs are not going.

[Jane Coston]

Away always wins, sure. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick defended the president's right to bypass Congress and levy tariffs using broad emergency powers during an appearance on Fox News Sunday. Last week, the US Court of International Trade struck down most of the tariffs President Trump announced in April. In virtually every foreign nation. The panel of judges wrote that the International Emergency Economic Powers act, or iepa, does not grant the president the authority to impose those tariffs. But a federal appeals court blocked the ruling the next day. During his appearance on Fox, Lutnick claimed even if the courts ultimately rule against Trump in this case, his administration could just leverage another or another or another authority instead. Kevin Hassett, the director of the National Economic Council, also expressed confidence the courts would uphold Trump's authority to impose tariffs under IEEPA during an interview with ABC Sunday.

[Kevin Hassett]

That's Plan A, and we're very, very confident that Plan A is all we're ever going to need. But if for some reason some judge were to say that it's not a national emergency when more Americans die from fentanyl than have ever died in all American wars combined, that's not an emergency that the president has authority over. If that ludicrous statement is made by a judge somewhere, then we'll, we'll have other alternatives that we could pursue as well to make sure that we make America trade fair again.

[Jane Coston]

Quick fact check. Hassett is wrong about his video. Yes, a lot of people have died from a fentanyl overdose, but not more than all American wars combined. And also this is like the fifth reason we've been given for these tariffs. All the while President Donald Trump keeps threatening new tariffs. On Friday, he announced plans to double existing tariffs on aluminum and steel from 25% to 50% on Truth Social. Trump added that he expected the tariffs to take effect Wednesday. The Supreme Court Friday allowed the Trump administration to end temporary legal status for roughly half a million migrants from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua and Venezuela. For now, the ruling applies to migrants from the four countries living in the US Under a Biden era expansion of an immigration program called humanitarian parole. It allows certain people fleeing unstable countries to temporarily enter the US and stay here legally. The Trump administration attempted to end it in April. The court's order was unsigned, though liberal Justices Ketanji Brown Jackson and Sonia Cetomayor dissented. It's also not the final say in the case. The decision just ends deportation protections for these migrants while the case makes its way through the lower courts. In her dissent, Jackson wrote that her colleagues failed to consider, quote, the devastating consequences of allowing the government to precipitously upend the lives and livelihoods of nearly half a million noncitizens while their legal claims are pending.

[Unnamed Reporter]

People are not well. We all are going to die.

[Jane Coston]

Republican Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa gave a masterclass on how not to show empathy Friday during a town hall in her home state. Ernst's constituents pressed her about the massive spending package House Republicans passed last month, AKA President Trump's big, beautiful bill. Many voiced concerns about the hundreds of billions of dollars in proposed cuts to Medicaid in the legislation. Ernst defended them as merely cracking down on waste, fraud and abuse. As you can imagine, the we are all going to die response did not go over well, but Ernst didn't seem to care. The senator took to Instagram the next day to post a sarcastic apology video, a video she seems to have recorded at a cemetery.

[Unnamed Reporter]

People are going to die and I made an incorrect assumption that everyone in the auditorium understood that yes, we are all going to perish from this earth. So I apologize, she continued. And I'm really, really glad that I did not have to bring up the subject of the Tooth Fairy as well. But for those that would like to see eternal and everlasting life, I encourage you to embrace my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[Jane Coston]

Get it? She brought up the tooth Fairy because she thinks that the people who are mad at her didn't know death exists because they're dumb and also believe in the Tooth Fairy. Get it? I don't. To be clear, the government's own independent analysis says millions of Americans will lose access to health insurance under the proposed cuts. And what happens when millions of people lose healthcare coverage? Well, they don't get visited by the Tooth Fairy. And that's the news. Before we go what is stagflation anyway? On the newest episode of Inside 2025, Alyssa Mastromonaco sits down with Cecilia Rouse, economist, Princeton professor, and former chair of Biden's Council of Economic Advisors, for a conversation that's basically Econ 101 without the pop quiz. They break down the big questions how worried should we be about the national debt? What are tariffs actually for? And what kind of long term consequences could today's economic policies create? If you've ever pretended to understand the economy at brunch, this one's for you. Listen to Inside 2025 now and get access to even more exclusive content. Just [e-mail] friends. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, contemplate that we live in a world in which the rapper 50 Cent might be the only person standing in the way of a Diddy pardon and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just about how seriously 50 Cent said that he's going to reach out to Donald Trump to tell him Diddy said mean things about him. Like me. What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and [e-mail] subscribe I'm Jane Coston and what a Time Water Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Foer. Our producer is Michelle Eloy. We had production help today from Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Craig Walters, and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our executive producer is Adrienne Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders.

[M. Gessen]

I'm poet Saeed Jones.

[Jane Coston]

And I'm producer Zach Stafford.

[Howard Lutnick]

And we are the hosts of a.

[Jane Coston]

Podcast called Vibe Check. On Vibe Check, we talk about everything news, culture and entertainment and how it all feels. That's right, we talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface. Yes, indeed. And it doesn't stop there.

[M. Gessen]

We have got a lot to say.

[Jane Coston]

So join our group, chat, come to life. Follow and listen to Vibe Check wherever.

[M. Gessen]

You get your podcasts.

[Howard Lutnick]

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