Erin Ryan (3:38)

So I think when a lot of people think about the State Department, they think about, like, human rights issues, refugees, those things that you say will now be less emphasized. So, like, what's left in the diplomatic stuff you talk about, like, are they going to change the embassies into spirit Halloweens? Like, what's going to happen?

Nihal Toosi (3:58)

Well, some of the, some of those buildings are way too nice to be a spirit Halloween. Look, they're going to do lots of things that they continue to do. I mean, they are going to be part of peace talks, right between Ukraine and Russia. They're still involved in energy issues. That's going to be actually a pretty big deal, trying to find new energy partners. Commercial diplomacy is still going to be a part of what they do, which is basically trying to find ways to help US Businesses operate overseas better. There are many, many things that the department does. I mean, peace treaties. I mentioned the nuclear talks, traditional issues of war and peace that you kind of want to avoid getting into a war. If the diplomats can do their jobs, there's still a lot that the department can do. I think the way that Secretary Rubio framed it, though, is like, and he had to do it like in this kind of very MAGA way of just being like, oh, we're not going to do the WOKE stuff anymore and we're not going to become like ideological warriors. And he kind of said those things to throw some red meat to the base. But I got to tell you that the restructuring is not nearly as extensive as a lot of people feared it would be.

Erin Ryan (5:10)

So back to the specifics of the reorg. There have been a few proposals floating around, including an executive order draft that some diplomats called, and I quote, bonkers, crazy pants. So how is what Rubio laid out different than the most bonkers crazy pants suggestions.

Nihal Toosi (5:28)

Look, that bonkers crazy pants is actually a source of mine. And who said that? And wow, it might be the most famous thing I ever write. Look, that so called executive order draft to my best reporting. I don't think it was ever anything that even remotely reached Secretary of State Rubio or was remotely a real thing. I think it was something, probably something tankers drafted and some people inside the department floated around. But it was calling for things like getting rid of the entire bureau devoted to Africa, completely axing huge parts of the department, including of course the democracy elements and human rights and things like that, major staff cuts. But this was put out there and it absolutely freaked out a group of people, diplomats who already were freaked out. And you know, even though the secretary said it was fake, et cetera. I think there have been some other things too. I mean, there have been other proposals that I think are more real about closing several embassies and consulates overseas that I think many of those are going to happen, including several embassy closures in Africa and some consulate closures in Europe. I think those are things that will happen, including. There are some proposals to really slash the spending. But the budget is a different thing than the structure of the department and Congress. At the end of the day, at least last I checked, Congress has the power of the first, and let's see if they're willing to keep the funding going for the department.

Erin Ryan (7:06)

Okay, so the, the absolute most extreme proposal that you got a, you got hold of written in crayon probably never actually going to be like, like a real, a real proposal that got enacted. But on the topic of budget, earlier this month you wrote about how the Trump administration might ask Congress to cut the State Department budget in half, which seems like that seems like a lot bonkers crazy pants. To stick with the theme here without sounding flip, how does the work of the State Department impact the daily lives of average Americans? Like, will they even feel anything when that happens? Because I think that's what the administration is counting on. That the State Department work primarily affects people outside of the US who won't. And most people in the US Won't care.

Nihal Toosi (7:49)

Well, yeah, I mean, look, there's the immediate effect and then there's the long term effect. Right? On an immediate effect. Say you need to get your passport renewed because you have to go travel somewhere, but they have cut the staffing at the passport office, and so it takes much longer and actually maybe costs more to get your passport renewed. I mean, that is one immediate thing that affects ordinary Americans. But then in the long term, if you have a State Department that is just dysfunctional diplomatically, and it can't get along in certain places, from Beijing to smaller countries where it's trying to, for instance, promote programs that reduce the risk of young people turning to terrorism, then, yes, you have fragile societies overseas that can crumble and which can lead to violence and which can lead to eventually targeting of Americans, including possibly Americans who are traveling overseas. Right. So a lot of what the department does in a lot of ways, is preventative. It's about preventing terrible things from happening. It's why military leaders often say that they really want more funding for diplomacy, that they want to help the diplomats, because the more the diplomats succeed, the less they have to send young men and women into. To fight wars.

Erin Ryan (9:09)

Mm. The State Department has been undergoing some seemingly drastic changes ever since Trump returned to office, the big one being the decision to basically shutter USAID and fold its remaining staff into State. Which brings us to another story you wrote about how the White House appears to be abandoning the entire continent of Africa. Can you describe what that looks like?

Nihal Toosi (9:29)

Yeah, I mean, if you look at what they're doing, it's really, really extraordinary. I mean, basically folding USAID and deleting most of it affects Africa a great deal. There's many, many programs in Africa, especially health related programs that the US Was funding, as well as education programs and counter extremism programs, things like that that USAID was doing. And those are basically being packed up or really, really scaled back or scaled down. So that was one example. Another example was simply that they haven't really named any Africa officials to the Trump administration. It just hasn't been much of a priority. They're definitely going to be closing some embassies in Africa, from what I am told. And there's just this, you know, it looks like there's this breakup, like we're just kind of walking away. And in a way, we are. But my understanding from talking to people who are in the Trump administration or hope to go in is that this is actually a step. They hope that in the long run will help African countries become less dependent on foreign aid and more inclined to simply find their own ways to make revenue and turbocharge their private sectors, really increase trade, at least among each other, but also with the United States. And so Trump administration officials just really feel like the relationship has to change, and they're going to make these really tough, some would say cruel decisions, but they just say no. We have to make these hard decisions, and we're sorry if people die, but we have to think about the long term. It's a very interesting thing. We'll see. We'll see what happens five, ten years from now. But that's their idea.

Erin Ryan (11:11)

You said we're already seeing people die, but diplomatically, are we seeing, say, China step into the vacuum that we're leaving in Africa and leaving? Is it going to leave us diplomatically vulnerable in those places? Is it going to give China the inside track on having relations with Africa and everything that the continent has to offer?

Nihal Toosi (11:32)

Well, you know, that is kind of the argument many opponents of the Trump administration make right now. And I would say two things to that. One is that to a degree, we've already lost the battle. And I want to just take a second. You know, Africa is 54 countries. They are all diverse. They are different. It's hard to make these kind of sweeping generalizations that I kind of hate doing it. Especially sub Saharan Africa is different than Northern Africa. It's. I want people to understand that I'm not, like, painting with a broad brush, but in terms of the overall regional approach. Yeah, like, I think the Chinese have. Have long made inroads that are just much stronger. They. They make Africa a priority. Their foreign minister, his first trip every year is to Africa. So that is not what we do now. That said, when I bring up China to Trump administration officials, they're like, look, the Chinese economy is going south right now. They don't have the resources or the will to kind of do the extensive work that we did on the aid front. So we actually don't think that they're necessarily going to fill in the way what we are leaving. They don't think that China will fill that vacuum to the degree that they could. And so they. They think that the China threat has been overhyped by the aid establishment to continue the funding. Uh, it's, again, it's an interesting theory. Uh, we'll see where we are five or ten years.

Erin Ryan (12:53)

Okay. Uh, what does all this tell you about the administration's overall approach to foreign diplomacy?

Nihal Toosi (12:58)

Look, I think they are just much more realpolitik, much less interested in soft issues, as they would call them, like human rights and education and definitely not promoting democracy. They feel like these types of soft power are just a giant waste of money that actually kind of interfere, in a way with America's ability to have a real relationship with certain countries, especially places like China and Russia and others that they just see as very important. So it's just going to be more transactional, more business focused. The weirdest thing about all this is it's Marco Rubio doing this. He, when he was a senator, was the was a big advocate for promoting human rights and soft power and aid and all of these things. And he is, you know, very much determined to survive in the Trump era. And so he is taking a very different tack on these issues now.

Erin Ryan (13:57)

Well, how's the old saying go? You catch more flies with vinegar than with honey. Oh, no, opposite. Nahal, thank you so much for joining us.

Nihal Toosi (14:05)

Thank you so much for having me.

Erin Ryan (14:07)

That was my conversation with Nahal Toosi, senior foreign affairs correspondent for Politico. We'll link to her work in our show notes. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads.

Nihal Toosi (14:36)

This.

Erin Ryan (14:36)

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Roman Mars (16:23)

Hi, I'm Roman Mars, host of the podcast 99% invisible. Design is everywhere in our lives, but it's easy to not notice or take it for granted. 99% Invisible is a weekly exploration of the process and power of design and architecture. It's stories of who we are through the lens of the things we build. Like have you ever wondered why we use the 1kHz bleep sound to cover up inappropriate words on radio and TV? Or what aspects of infrastructure allow 5 year olds in Japan to run errands by themselves while kids in the US are completely dependent on their parents or their parents cars? Or why the histor flag of South Vietnam shows up at right wing protests all the time? Or why people are obsessed with houseplants. And when did we start bringing plants from halfway around the world into our homes to begin with? 99% invisible. We'll explore all of that and more every Tuesday. Follow and listen to 99% invisible wherever you get your podcasts.

Erin Ryan (17:25)

Here's what else we're following today.

Nihal Toosi (17:27)

Head of Lines.

Erin Ryan (17:31)

I didn't like last night.

Nihal Toosi (17:33)

I wasn't happy with it, and we're in the midst of talking peace and missiles were fired and I was not happy with it.

Erin Ryan (17:41)

I want to make that my ringtone when I get a text message from somebody I don't like. President Trump said Thursday that he's not happy after the Kremlin launched its deadliest attack on Ukraine in months, according to Ukrainian officials. A barrage of Russian airstrikes killed at least 12 people and left more than 90 wounded in Kyiv early Thursday morning. The assault came the day after Trump claimed that a deal to end the war was very close and accused Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky of derailing negotiations. The deal, by the way, is basically a Xeroxed page of Russia's demands. In a post to Truth Social Thursday, Trump responded to news of the attack writing, quote, vladimir, stop speaking to reporters in the Oval Office. Trump said the US Is pressuring Russia to accept a peace deal. But when asked if Russia has offered any concessions to help things along, the president said stopping the war, stopping taking the whole country.

Nihal Toosi (18:37)

Pretty big concession.

Erin Ryan (18:38)

Sure they get like 20% of Ukraine's territory on top of Crimea, which they illegally invaded and prevent Ukraine from ever joining NATO. But sure, big concessions. Secretary of State Marco Rubio said Thursday that more Russia, Ukraine peace talks are scheduled for this weekend. President Trump asked the Supreme Court Thursday to allow Pentagon officials to immediately enforce a ban on transgender troops while legal challenges to the policy play out in court. Trump signed an executive order back in January directing Secretary oh, sorry, I mean Diva of Defense Pete Hegseth to establish new policies around trans service members. While the order itself wasn't an outright ban, the Pentagon issued a memo in February announcing its plans to identify and remove trans service members. With some exceptions, two federal judges blocked officials from going through with it. On Thursday, Politico reported that the Pentagon will resume providing gender affirming care to trans service members. But the administration filed an emergency appeal to the high court Thursday, arguing that trans troops, quote, undermine military effectiveness and lethality. Speaking of our Diva of Defense, Hegseth had Signal, the encrypted messaging app installed on a desktop computer at the Pentagon, the Washington Post reports. This is so guy who cheated on two wives coded that I cannot even stand it. Hegseth reportedly wanted to find a way to circumvent bad cell phone service in the building and communicate quickly with White House officials. Sure, Jan. Fun fact. Several Pentagon workers have lost their security clearances for way less severe offenses than Hegseth, who the New York Times says texted sensitive military information to his wife. He's a wife guy. Can you blame him? Yes, actually. The National Endowment for the Humanities says help is wanted. It needs artists to sculpt, quote, life size statues of 250 great individuals from America's past who have contributed to our cultural, scientific, economic and political heritage for the planned National Garden of American Heroes, the federal agency said in a press release Thursday. It's for the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence in 2026. The garden was proposed by Trump during his first term, and in an executive order earlier this year, Trump established a White House task force to celebrate America's 250th birthday. Cannot wait for this shitty version of Epcot. An official site has not been chosen for the garden just yet, but the governor of South Dakota in a letter last month offered up land near Mount Rushmore, which is great for me because it means I will never accidentally go there. The grant notice says artists can receive up to $200,000 per sculpture, with a cap at $600,000 for three sculptures. The NEH says with the help of the National Endowment for the arts, $30 million will go toward enabling the creation of the marble, granite, bronze, copper or brass statues. So if you're ready to sculpt Ingrid Bergman, Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, Frederick Douglass, Woody Guthrie, Aretha Franklin, Christopher Columbus. He's not even American. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Henry David Thoreau, Kobe Bryant or George Washington. Now is your time to shine. And that's the news. Before we go when your grocery bills are climbing and our friends and neighbors are being unlawfully shipped to a country with a brutal human rights record, that's not just domestic policy at work. And that's why you should tune into Crooked's foreign policy show, Pod Save the World. Each week, hosts Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes talk about how U.S. decisions on immigration, trade, foreign aid, et cetera have ripple effects around the world and shape how other countries respond to us in turn, like tariffs that trigger global trade fights and supply chain issues, or the deportation of people to El Salvador prisons with horrific conditions while the government there is jailing thousands without due process. There's a lot going on in the world. Let's make sense of it. New episodes of Pod Save the World drop every Wednesday. Tune in wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, Leave a review, go see Ryan Coogler's buzzy horror film Sinners in theaters and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just pop culture, essays that contain no spoilers for Ryan Coogler's Sinners Like Me. What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe@crooked.com subscribe I'm Erin Ryan and knock it off Vladimir Putin.

Nihal Toosi (23:29)

Water Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Foer. Our producer is Michelle Aloy. We had production help today from Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters, and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our executive producer is Adrienne Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

Roman Mars (24:09)

Hi, I'm Roman Mars, host of the podcast 99% invisible. Design is everywhere in our lives, but it's easy to not notice or take it for granted. 99% Invisible is a weekly exploration of the process and power of in architecture. It's stories of who we are through the lens of the things we build. Like have you ever wondered why we use the 1kHz bleep sound to cover up inappropriate words on radio and TV? Or what aspects of infrastructure allow 5 year olds in Japan to run errands by themselves while kids in the US are completely dependent on their parents or their parents cars. Or why the historic flag of South Vietnam shows up at right wing protests all the time. Or why people are obsessed with houseplants. And when did we start bringing plants from halfway around the world world into our homes to begin with? 99% invisible. We'll explore all of that and more every Tuesday. Follow and listen to 99% invisible wherever you get your podcasts.