Jason Kebler (2:53)

Hey, thanks for having me.

Jane Costen (2:54)

So I think we kind of all know what we're talking about when we use the term AI Slop, but let's get a definition in. What is AI Slop?

Jason Kebler (3:03)

Yeah, I mean, in my opinion, it is AI generated content that is designed to make money first and foremost. Like, at first it was primarily stuff that was designed to trick people by, like, being very realistic. Like, I started writing about this at the end of 2023 where there was this wood carver guy who was like making dogs out of like these huge trees. Like, he. He was documenting every moment of the process. And I started seeing like all these variations of that image on Facebook of this guy, like sitting next to like a life sized dog that he had made out of a chainsaw. And there was just like all these different versions where the dog was different, the guy was different, and they were going viral over and over and over again. And they were all stolen from this one artist in the UK who actually made this stuff.

Jane Costen (3:50)

But I want to ask, how does this stuff make money? Like, what is the generative concept behind it?

Jason Kebler (3:58)

Yeah, so each social media platform has something called a creator bonus program. And I think Facebook maybe had the first of these to compete with TikTok. Like when they launched reels, they were trying to get TikTok stars to come onto Instagram and post reels. And so they said, we will pay you if you go viral. Essentially, if your posts get a lot of views on any social media platform, you get some fraction of the ad revenue is like the easiest way of thinking about it. And so the thing about this is, like, AI content doesn't even necessarily need to trick people. Like, people don't need to think that it's real. A lot of this stuff is just so bizarre that it's made to have you sit there and go, like, what the hell is this? And so the person who's making that has like, captured your attention for a few seconds and you know, they're capturing like fractions of a penny per view, per, like per comment, per share, and that adds up. What I like to say is, like, they have a lot of bites at the algorithmic Apple. It's like you and me, we're making this video. We're in person. I had to drive here, it took me an hour. This is going to take a long time. You could make an AI video in 10 seconds and you create hundreds of them and load it up with keywords. And you don't need all of them to go viral. You only need one of them to go viral in order to grow your channel and start collecting this money.

Jane Costen (5:12)

Let's talk about the sora app that OpenAI recently released. Because it seems like that put slop creation into hyperdrive. How does Sora work?

Jason Kebler (5:20)

Yeah, I mean, it's so easy to use. I got into it the other day. So you download the app. When you join it, you essentially take a selfie. So you like record your face, you turn to the left, to the right, and that like captures your face. And then you say three numbers. So you'll say like 42, 87, 35. And then it has captured your voice and it's captured your face. And then you just type a prompt. So we could say Jason and Jane recording a podcast at the Crooked studios. And in like 30 seconds it'll spit out a video and it will have my voice. I can put you in it if you are also on the app and have agreed to allow me to like put you in my videos. And then we could also say like, we want Pikachu to be here, we want SpongeBob to be here. And I mean, the videos honestly are pretty impressive. I think, like, AI has been really crude for a long time. You have the ten finger problem, things like that. Like, Sora is pretty good. It's pretty scary in my opinion. And one thing that's really scary about it is that it syncs voice and images and video like really well. That was like a really hard thing to do in AI for a while, was to like make the voices sound real. Or you could make the voices, but you couldn't make like the lips line up and stuff like that. And it's like, it's pretty good at that.

Jane Costen (6:36)

Yeah, I'm terrified thinking about this because it seems like if you can do that with your voice and with my voice, you can basically just blur the lines between reality and made up stuff. Especially because so many of the videos that I've seen have been based on A politics or a culture thing that the person wants to be true. So I want to ask, are there any guardrails on the Sora app?

Jason Kebler (7:02)

Yeah, so there's not that many. If you want to put yourself in it or one of your friends, they have to opt in and they have to scan their face and like choose to be in the app. But if you are a famous person, you know, there's not a lot of guardrails at the moment. A lot of copyrighted characters are in there. OpenAI has decided to have an opt out for intellectual property, which is a choice. So basically, like when the app first launched, there was tons of spongebob, there was tons of Pokemon because Nintendo and Viacom hadn't opted those characters out. Over the last few days, I've seen a lot of users complaining that they can't make spongebob anymore. So there are some guardrails for companies. And then, you know, they tried to prevent you from making porn or making violent content. Although people have found ways around those so far.

Jane Costen (7:53)

So I need to get into the intersection of AI and politics.

Jason Kebler (7:57)

Yes.

Jane Costen (7:58)

Because it is worrying to have some of our weirdest political figures using AI in ways that are baffling even for them. I mean, I wrote about this a couple days ago, but we had Trump post and then delete an AI video of himself and his daughter in law in a Fox News esque newscast about med beds, which is a right wing conspiracy theory about beds that can regrow limbs. And I am not kidding, there was that super weird grim reaper video he posted of himself and Vice President J.D. vance with office of Management and Budget Director Russell Vogt as the grim reaper. And now you've got California Governor Gavin Newsom using AI videos. Is this just our reality now of politicians using memes like these? But also of politicians who seem well aware or should be well aware of that weird line between reality and fantasy and they're just kind of running straight long at that line itself.

Jason Kebler (8:54)

Yeah. I mean, if you can remember back to the good old days of like October 2024, like the Kamala Trump debate. Yeah, there was a lot of AI slop, the Haitians are eating the dogs and cats meme. And that was the first time that I really saw like Trump use AI slop. And there was like this big conversation like, we can't stoop to that level. We cannot be making AI slop about politics, about current events, things like that. Now it's everywhere and I feel like all bets are off. Like you have Gavin Newsome using it you have the RNC using it, you have Trump using it, you have Trump making videos about the resort he wants to make in Gaza that are AI generated. And I really do think that the ball is moving so rapidly in this space that it's hard to imagine a world where we, like, put things back in the box and sort of stop doing this. Last week, there was a refinery explosion in El Segundo, which is pretty close to my house. So I wanted to see what was going on. I went to Google it, and one of the top results within 15 minutes of it happening was AI slob. And so it's happening almost in real time, and it's happening about basically any news event that you can possibly think of.

Jane Costen (10:06)

AI has also been applied to political ads, which, according to a recent New York Times story, are an active part of Facebook's advertising revenue. And we've been talking about the money part of this. Meta says it will enforce rules against scammers, but clearly those fake ads are all over the platform. And even if Meta tries to do this, it's basically playing whack a mole. Can we hope for any kind of oversight, or are we just fucked on this?

Jason Kebler (10:30)

I mean, I have tried to get Meta to talk about this with me for two years. They promote this stuff like this is part of their business model. They have an ad product that is powered by generative AI, where, you know, maybe a couple years ago, if you were an advertiser, you would make two or three versions of an ad. You would see which one performs the best on Facebook, and then you would put money behind that ad. With generative AI, they can make hundreds of versions of the ad, all slightly different, all AI generated, and see which one performs best and then put money into that. And if you listen to, like, a Meta earnings call, Mark Zuckerberg will say, this is a huge growth vector for us. And, you know, they are making tools that allow people to make AI imagery. I would say a lot of my Instagram and Facebook feed is AI generated. And a lot of it is politics, if not overtly ads. It's politics adjacent. I've seen more like AI slop about Elon Musk than almost any other figure. And almost all of the slop I've seen is like, Elon Musk builds tiny homes for homeless community. Like, Elon Musk invents rocket that could never exist. And people buy it because I think that they're just kind of stuck in this vortex, this algorithmic, like, hell of AI. And you see this time and time again. And it starts to shape your worldview, I think.

Jane Costen (11:50)

So what are good ways to tell if a video or image has been AI generated? Like, I've been really relying on the fact that AI still seems not very good at making hands. But now we're getting to a point where that's not working, where you really have to rely on some sort of uncanny Valley resonance coming from it. So are there any hints that you can offer or any kind of paths forward? I mean, the best I can think of is just like, have you ever seen this before or does this just seem suspicious?

Jason Kebler (12:17)

Yeah, I mean, this is the main thing I've been reporting on for two years. I spend all day, every day looking at AI photos and AI videos. And until a few months ago, I would have agreed with you. I would say look at the hands, look to see if the text is blurry. Because AI is really bad at making text. It's pretty bad at doing like reflections and things like that. So if there's a mirror, maybe there will be no reflection. Maybe like a window would look a little odd. But that has really changed over the last couple months. I still think that AI video has like a bit of a surreal quality to it, where it's just like, oh, that people are like moving a little bit too, like smoothly in a lot of the videos I've seen. But I think it's getting a lot harder. And I think that we've really like passed a rubic with Sora, especially where I can't always tell. And that's the really scary thing. My best advice is to like, not trust most things that you see on social media these days, unless it comes from someone who you personally know from a news source that you actually trust. And I think that that is like kind of where we're going, where you're going to start to have to trust individual people and institutions versus like the thing that's viral at that moment.

Jane Costen (13:34)

I feel like that's just a general good idea.

Jason Kebler (13:37)

It is. It's all I've got at this moment, you know.

Jane Costen (13:40)

No, that makes sense. Jason, thank you so much for your time.

Jason Kebler (13:43)

Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Jane Costen (13:45)

That was my conversation with Jason Kepler, co founder of 404 Media. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. What a day is brought to you by bombas Fall is here. Kids are back in school, vacations are over and cozy season is officially on. You know what that means? Bombas season. It's also on. Bombas makes the most comfortable socks and slippers and they are perfect for this time of year. What to love about Bombas? Absurdly comfortable materials like merino wool, Supima cotton and classic rag wool as well. Slides and slippers. Bombas got them too from Sherpa lined Sunday slippers for staying in to do it all Eva Friday slides on the go. And the best part, Every item you buy means one donated to someone experiencing homelessness. Over 150 million items so far and with their happiness guarantee, if you're not 100% into what you got, they'll make it right. No risk, all reward. Bombas does make the most comfortable socks and as a runner and a person who spends a lot of time on her feet, that matters to me. So head over to bombas.comday and use code day for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M b-s.com day code.

Kirsten Gillibrand (15:13)

Day at checkout hey, it's Kirsten Gillibrand here at the DSCC with a very important message. Something big is taking shape. Democrats are gaining in the polls. We're winning special election after special election and we are far from through. But I need your help to keep the work going and flip the Senate seats to finally put a check on Trump. Will you chip in before midnight to help Democrats win the Senate? Donate now@dscc.org win paid for by DSCC.

LifeLock Advertiser (15:42)

Dscc.Org, not authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. It's Cybersecurity awareness month and LifeLock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, LifeLock is your best choice. LifeLock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft. Guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected. With a 30 day free trial@lifelock.com specialoffer terms apply.

Jane Costen (16:17)

Here's what else we're following today. Head of lines.

Donald Trump (16:23)

Portland is burning to the ground. You have agitators, insurrectionists. All you have to do is look at the. Look at the television. Turn on your television. Read your newspapers. It's burning to the ground. The governor, the mayor. The politicians are petrified for their lives.

Jane Costen (16:41)

They are not. That's Trump on the South Lawn of the White House next to a very loud helicopter on Sunday. He's talking about the decision of a federal judge he appointed to block the deployment of Oregon's National Guard in Portland. The president has been cracking down on Democratic cities that protest his policies, like Los Angeles and Washington, D.C. and Portland has been on his radar for a while, thanks to a lot of anti Immigration and Customs Enforcement rallies this year and Fox News. Although, to be clear, despite what that television network is telling you, the city is not burning to the ground. But hey, never mind all that. The president is just gonna do what he wants to do. Despite the federal court ruling, the Trump administration on Sunday decided that if it can't deploy troops from Oregon, it's gonna send 300 National Guard troops from California. Brilliant. In response, California Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom said the Trump administration is, quote, ignoring court orders and treating judges, even those appointed by the president himself, as political opponents, and added that California will sue. Meanwhile, the Trump administration has also authorized 300 National Guard troops to Chicago, citing crime in the region and what officials describe as attacks on ICE officers that have been active in the city. Illinois Democratic Governor J.B. pritzker has objected to the deployment, and he joined Jake Tapper on CNN's State of the Union on Sunday to talk about it, where he mentioned a brutal ICE raid in Chicago's South Shore neighborhood last week.

Donald Trump (18:02)

Our Department of Children Family Services are.

LifeLock Advertiser (18:04)

Investigating what happened to those children who were zip tied and held, some of them nearly naked in the middle of the night.

Donald Trump (18:11)

And again, elderly people being thrown into a U haul for three hours and detained. US Citizens.

LifeLock Advertiser (18:19)

What kind of a country are we living in?

Jane Costen (18:21)

Of course, there are major questions about whether the president's use of federal troops in US Cities is even constitutional. In September, another federal judge ruled the president's decision to deploy National Guard troops in Los Angeles was illegal. The Trump administration has appealed that ruling, setting up for more back and forth between the Trump administration and pretty much everyone in the courts.

Marco Rubio (18:44)

So there's a framework here, and the framework is simple. Once you agree on the logistics of how this is going to happen. I think the Israelis and everyone acknowledge you can't release hostages in the middle of strikes, so the strikes will have to stop.

Jane Costen (18:56)

U.S. secretary of State Marco Rubio responded to questions on CBS's Face the Nation Sunday about Israel's continued attacks on Gaza, despite Trump saying on Friday that bombing should stop as a peace deal for the region gets worked out. Rubio said the Trump administration wants Hamas to release all Israeli hostages and told CBS that if Hamas agrees to do so, Israel will have to stop its bombardment of Gaza.

Marco Rubio (19:19)

We're trying to get the hostages out. That's the bottom line. We want to get the hostages out as soon as possible. For that to happen, there can't be a war going on in the middle of it, and Hamas has to agree to turn them over and we have to have the right people go in and get them.

Jane Costen (19:31)

Hamas on Friday already agreed to the part of Trump's peace plan that involves releasing all hostages, though the group said other parts of the deal, like handing over future control of Gaza to other political groups, will require further negotiation. Trump appeared optimistic in a video he posted to Truth Social on Friday.

Donald Trump (19:48)

So I just want to let you know that this is a very special day, may be unprecedented. In many ways it is unprecedented. But thank you all, and thank you all to those great countries that helped. We were given a tremendous amount of help. Everybody was unified in wanting this war to end and seeing peace in the Middle east, and we're very close to achieving that. Thank you all and everybody will be treated fairly.

Jane Costen (20:16)

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, however, was not as hopeful that a deal would go through. Officials told Axios that during a phone call Friday after Hamas agreed to parts of the plan, Netanyahu said, it doesn't mean anything, to which Trump responded, quote, I don't know why you're always so fucking negative. This is a win. Take it. But Trump was a little less sanguine Saturday, speaking to CNN's Jake Tapper via text because they text writing that if Hamas insists on staying in power, it'll face, quote, complete obliteration. The Israeli military continued its bombing campaign of Gaza over the weekend. At least 19 Palestinians were killed Sunday as delegations from Hamas, Israel and the US Traveled to Egypt to negotiate the peace plan. Those talks are expected to begin Monday, just ahead of the second anniversary of the October 7 attacks on Israel by Hamas. Russia launched yet another major attack against Ukraine early Sunday, killing at least five and injuring many others. Ukrainian officials said the strikes targeted civilian infrastructure and that in one part of the country where a power plant was bombed, more than 73,000 people were left without electricity. In recent weeks, Russia has increased its attacks on Ukraine's energy grid as winter approaches. Russia has also been attacking Ukraine's railway network almost daily for two months. Russia's Defense Ministry said the strikes targeted Ukraine's military industrial complex and the energy facilities that supply it, but Ukraine says many of the targets were civilian. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said in a telegram post that the airstrikes once again targeted our infrastructure. Everything that ensures normal life for our people for its part, Ukraine has also been targeting Russian infrastructure, particularly its oil refineries, which has contributed to an ongoing fuel shortage there. Last week, we told you about Trump's bizarre declaration that the US Is in a, quote, non international armed conflict with drug cartels, which in plain English means he's calling it a war without those pesky legal strings attached. Well, on Friday, the Trump administration doubled down. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced yet another strike on a suspected drug smuggling boat off the coast of Venezuela, the latest in a string of attacks that have already killed multiple people. Now, you may be thinking that sounds a lot like violating state sovereignty to conduct what Venezuela's vice president described as, quote, extrajudicial executions. Well, on Sunday, at an event celebrating the Navy's 250th anniversary, Trump clarified why you'd be wrong to think that way.

Donald Trump (22:48)

You have to think of it this way. Every one of those boats is responsible for the death of 25,000American people and the destruction of families. So when you think of it that way, what we're doing is actually an act of kindness.

Jane Costen (23:05)

Kindness. Pass it on. The administration says these are legitimate military operations against, quote, unlawful combatants. But critics like Kentucky Republican Senator Rand Paul say Trump is stretching his war powers to launch open ended conflicts without congressional approval. Lawmakers still haven't received a full list of which groups have been designated as targets because transparency is for losers. And ghosts get it. I mean, Halloween is approaching and ghosts are transparent. Oh, and the Supreme Court just granted the Trump administration power to strip legal protections from over 300,000 Venezuelan migrants by revoking their temporary protected status. Because if you're going to stretch presidential war powers, may as well push against the boundaries of immigration law, too. And that's the news. Before we go, you've heard us talking about the critically acclaimed limited series Shadow Coal Survivor and we're excited to share that the full series is out now. Shadow Kingdom Coal Survivor is the unbelievable true story of the United Mineworkers of America and the son who took on a dangerous union boss to avenge his family's murder. Host Niccolo Menoni digs into the rise and fall of the United Mine Workers of America under Tony Boyle, once the most powerful and corrupt labor leader in the country at the height of America's coal wars. It's a political thriller wrapped in a courtroom drama and every detail is real. It's a must listen series. You can binge the full season of Shadow Coal Survivor wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for today. If you like the show make sure you subscribe. Leave a Review Please do not discuss your Taylor Swift album Hot Takes with me and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just about how my views on Taylor Swift are that she seems like a nice person and I saw her in concert once about a decade ago and seriously, that's it. Like me, what a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe@crooked.com subscribe I'm Jane Coston and I am standing up to the Taylor Swift hot take economy by simply not having a Taylor Swift hot take. What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Emily Foer and Chris Allport. Our video editor is Joseph Dutra. Our video producer is Johanna Case. We had production help today from Greg Walters, Matt Berg, Sean Ali, Gina Pollack and Caitlin Plummer. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our Senior Vice President of News and Politics is Adrienne Hill. We had help today from the Associated Press. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America east.

Donald Trump (26:08)

Did.

Greenlight Advertiser (26:09)

You know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight today@greenlight.com podcast.

LifeLock Advertiser (26:38)

It's Cybersecurity Awareness Month and LifeLock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams and for comprehensive identity protection, LifeLock is your best choice. Lifelock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected with a 30 day free trial@lifelock.com Specialoffer terms apply.