A (2:29)

The hepatitis B vaccine has been recommended for all newborns for more than 30 years. Why has it been given to newborn babies and how has it affected rates of hepatitis B in the US it's.

B (2:39)

One of the biggest public health successes that we have, actually. So before the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine was implemented, there were tens of thousands of newborns that were diagnosed with hepatitis biology. So hepatitis B is a virus that you can find in people's blood if they're infected. It is transmitted in a couple of different ways. So it's transmitted vertically, that means from mother to child, but also it's called horizontally, which means between people, not from mother to child through a couple of different ways. So like sharing household items such as a toothbrush, a razor, a nail clipper in the course of taking care of a baby or someone who needs more care. And then also it is sexually transmitted and can also be transmitted through shared injection equipment.

A (3:28)

Yeah, and I think that that's why there's been a lot of talk on weirdo right wing Internet about how like, well, I'm not an intravenous drug user. I obviously wouldn't need this. But one, some people are. And two, to your point, it is transferable in lots of different ways. And I may have never used intravenous drugs, but I have used a nail clipper.

B (3:46)

Indeed. And, you know, when you take care of someone like a child, they're bloody, sometimes they're snotty, they're messy, they've got secretions, you, your finger. That virus can live on sort of the material for a while. And so it could happen that a child is infected just in the routine course of taking care. And I think people tried to do a lot of things to fix that. So first there was testing, then it was first targeted to sort of folks who were at higher risk. Then it became more universal testing, and that still didn't get the rate down. We still had lots of cases. And so around 1991, they implemented a birth dose, a universal birth dose meant that there was like no one that was going to fall through the cracks, that everyone was gonna be covered. And the effect is that last year it was just a dozen or so cases of hepatitis B we had. And that matters because 90% of kids in that age range that get hepatitis B will go on from that very early infection to what's called chronic infection, which means that the virus is in their body, they're not able to clear it. And of those kids, 25% as they get older, will die of a complication of hepatitis. I like to think of the hepatitis B virus kind of like a toxin in your body that leads to liver cancer and to scarring of your liver. And so as long as that toxin's like floating around your liver can potentially get very sick, the vaccine super well tolerated, the risk benefit ratio is great. There's no new science that would indicate there's any reason to change it. And it has, in effect, prevented death from liver disease.

A (5:19)

Yeah. And to that point, a CDC panel voted to change the recommendation. What change are they recommending?

B (5:24)

So it's interesting, they've sort of gone back in time and are trying to use the hepatitis B status of the mother to dictate what happens to the child. And so that's the main change that they've made. And then for individuals who are hepatitis B negative, they say, talk to your doctor to decide if you should get the vaccine at that time. So that's really kind of not a change at all, because you always talk to your doctor to see if you want to get the vaccine at that time. The other thing that they did, which is based on absolutely no science and I can't even imagine how to implement it, rather than giving the three doses of the hepatitis B vaccine, which is what you need to have durable, lasting protection from hepatitis B, they voted to recommend getting the first dose, checking a lab to see if your body responded to it, and then deciding on subsequent doses after that. Problem being there's no data that supports that. And what we know from the vaccine is that you need three doses to get durable protection. So that one is as a dud the whole way and makes no scientific sense.

A (6:26)

Let's talk a bit about the advisory committee on immunization practices which voted for this change, who is on it now and how did it typically function?

B (6:34)

So there were 17 scientists who had been known for decades amongst medical folks as very balanced, good experts in either pediatrics, public health or immunizations. And they were all fired in July of 2025, with the explanation being that they had too many conflicts of interest. They replaced them with a group of people who were mainly ideologically aligned with Secretary Kennedy, conspiracy theorists, people who support, for lack of any better terminology, anti vaccine ideology. So what happened was they took an advisory committee that has an important history in being critical in creating very important health policy for the CDC director to review and approve. And what they replace it with is ideology with a CDC rubber stamp on top. And that's what we're seeing. However, they have put a couple of good people on, as demonstrated by some of the folks that were pushing back against some of the terrible decisions.

A (7:32)

There seems to have been a lot of dysfunction leading up to this vote to change the newborn hepatitis B recommendation, as evidenced by my colleague who went through the minutes of the meeting and there were just lots of people who didn't seem to even know what they were voting about. But what was the argument at these ACIP meetings for ending their universal recommendation?

B (7:50)

So that's the part that's so confusing. I'll just echo what you said. It was a dumpster fire as far as meetings go with so much confusion. They couldn't get the language straight for the votes. They kept changing the language and then when they were voting they wouldn't actually show the language. So I think many of the people voting didn't know what they were voting on. But I think that the main issue is that the presentations that you heard at the Advisory Committee on Immunization practices were ones that didn't have science that was reviewed for quality. And so there was a environmental scientist who does not take care of patients. So someone who has sort of view into the environment, who has historic anti vaccine perspectives, who presented on the safety and immunogenicity of the vaccine, meaning how well the vaccine works. So that would be like me presenting on global warming. I could probably do a presentation, but I am not an authority. So things that were presented were about theoretical risks, not real risks. Benefit was nearly ignored. So the perspective was that, you know, hepatitis B doesn't really happen to normal people, it only happens to people like you said, people who may have an underlying risk factor. And so it was a lot of mumbo jumbo, frankly, that was cloaked in scientific sounding presentations that came from sources that actually don't actually have the chops to be able to sort of either present that data or make any recommendations.

A (9:20)

I've seen this a lot from anti vaxxers is that they, they kept making comparisons between what shots the US recommends to other countries and what shots they recommend. Denmark specifically was brought up a lot because it does not universally recommend the Hepatitis B vaccine for newborns. Now Denmark seems like a lovely place, but what do you make of that argument?

B (9:38)

Denmark, the size of Minnesota?

A (9:40)

Yes.

B (9:41)

So that's really important. I would love to mimic the Danish childhood vaccination schedule once we have universal health care. The reality is that our vaccine schedule has evolved for several reasons. So we know what infections kids are at risk for. We also know that we don't have perfect universal healthcare, which Denmark approximates pretty close to perfect. And we also don't have a system that gives us a view into the health of every person in great detail. The strategy for the American vaccine program is less about cost effectiveness and more about the view that we should have no one die or even acquire, if possible, a vaccine preventable disease.

A (10:22)

Zooming out a little bit. I know that you're very concerned about this, and so am I, but this is one change made to one vaccine schedule, and it still needs to be approved by the acting director of the cdc. But why is this vote such a big deal when it comes to US Vaccine policy? And to me, it's such a big deal for child health.

B (10:41)

Yeah, I mean, I think that this vote is important for a couple of reasons. One, generally, when you make a change to vaccine policy, there has to be a public health problem that you're solving for, and there has to be something new, some data, some change that would motivate a change in the vaccine policy. None of that happened. There is no public health problem except for hepatitis B. This doesn't solve for that. It makes it worse. And the data that was presented went through no scientific review. They pretty much got up there and said whatever they wanted to say, and then they voted however they wanted to vote. It is a precedent that says that they can just do that, that without any supporting data, without any public health problem, they can change the schedule for children in the US it got worse when the White House the next day put out a decree saying that Secretary Kennedy and the acting director of cdc, who, by the way, is not a scientist, if they decide that the American schedule doesn't look as good as it should, and it should look more like the Danish schedule, they've now been empowered to make that change, maybe without even any public deliberation.

A (11:47)

Moving forward, this is something I've asked a host of people who used to work at the CDC or public health experts. Where should parents turn? What do you do when the organization you're supposed to turn to for guidance, especially in the delivery room, where if you've just had a child, maybe you're not 100% up to reviewing vaccine schedule policy papers. What do you do when the organization you're supposed to turn to for guidance is no longer trustworthy?

B (12:11)

Yeah, I mean, the answer for parents is the answer that I always have, which is talk to your pediatrician. And so that puts a lot of burden on the pediatricians, but their organizations like the American Academy of Pediatrics, as an example, the obstetrics, gynecology folks at acog, all of them are actually giving their doctors very clear guidance on what to do.

A (12:32)

And.

B (12:32)

And unfortunately, it kills me to say, as someone who loves cdc, all of them say to ignore this recommendation.

A (12:38)

Demetri, thank you so much for joining me.

B (12:41)

Thank you for having me.

A (12:43)

That was my conversation with Dimitri Daskalakis, former Director of the CDC national center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some Ads.

A (13:08)

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B (14:43)

Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.

A (14:55)

You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of ad free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer details apply.

A (15:14)

Here's what else we're following today. Head of Lines.

A (15:20)

You'Re asking us to destroy the structure of government and to take away from Congress its ability to protect its idea that the government is better structured with some agencies that are independent. Liberal U.S. supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor pushed back against a Trump administration attorney as he argued for expanded presidential power over independent federal agencies, which are independent for a reason. But that's neither here nor there. The high court heard arguments in Trump v. Slaughter on Monday. The case stems from Trump's effort to fire a member of the Federal Trade Commission without cause. After more than two hours of back and forth, the court's conservative majority suggested it would overturn or at least rein in, a 90 year old decision that limits the president's power to fire agency board members. That would be in the Trump administration's favorite, and Solicitor General D. John Sauer argued that precedent should be overruled.

B (16:16)

But it continues to generate confusion in the lower courts and it continues to tempt Congress to erect at the heart of our government a headless fourth branch insulated from political accountability and democratic control.

A (16:30)

Liberal Justice Elena Kagan warned that leaving the status quo will have consequences. So the result of what you want is that the president is going to have massive, unchecked, uncontrolled power not only to do traditional execution, but to make law through legislative and adjudicative frameworks. The Supreme Court will likely decide Trump v. Slaughter by the end of summer.

A (16:58)

Paramount has initiated a tug of war with Netflix by launching a hostile takeover bid for Warner Bros. Discovery. Warner agreed last week to sell to Netflix, who would pay $82.7 billion for equity and debt. The Netflix deal did not include CNN and Warner's other big cable outlets. On Monday, Paramount offered to buy the entire business, and it would pay about $25 billion more than Netflix. Of course, neither the Netflix deal nor the Paramount offer is sealed until the White House sings, right? Paramount argues it's more likely to pass antitrust scrutiny by the Trump administration. Unlike Netflix, Paramount is run by David Ellison, is chummy with Trump. And that's not all. A regulatory document released Monday states that an investment firm run by Trump's son in law, Jared Kushner, would participate in the Paramount deal for Warner. But during an event at the White House Monday, a reporter asked Trump about the bidding war and he sounded non committal. I have to see what percentage of market they have.

B (17:55)

We have to see the Netflix percentage of market. Paramount, the percentage of more.

A (18:01)

I mean, none of them are particularly great friends of mine. You know, I just, I want to do what's right.

B (18:08)

So very important to do what's right.

A (18:10)

Oh, now you want to do the right thing.

A (18:15)

Was I just talking about Trump and Paramount? Well, yeah, but there's more about Trump and the company. Follow me. On Monday, Trump took to Truth Social and complained about an interview on 60 Minutes because, as you know, he has no engrossing hobbies. 60 Minutes is run by CBS and CBS is owned by Paramount or technically Paramount Skydance. Anyway, on Sunday, 60 Minutes ran its interview with Georgia Republican representative and newest Trump critic, Marjorie Taylor Greene. Here she is speaking to 60 Minutes correspondent Lesley Stahl. After President Trump called me a traitor, I got a pipe bomb threat on my house and then I got several direct death threats on my son. On your son? On my son. You say the president put your life in danger. You blame him. You say he fueled a hotbed of threats against me and that you blame him for the threats against your son. The subject line for the direct death threats on my son was his words. Marjorie Traitor Greene. Funnily enough, hearing about the death threats caused by his words made Trump mad. His post on Truth Social aimed at everyone involved. Quote, my real problem with the show, however, wasn't the low IQ traitor. It was that the new ownership of 60 Minutes, Paramount, would allow a show like this to air. They are no better than the old ownership. And that new ownership of Paramount, that would be the Ellisons, a family that's on the ins with Trump, or at least Trump thought they were. Which brings us back to the whole Paramount deal to buy Warner. Maybe Trump's being honest that despite the fact that his son in law would be involved in a Paramount deal, he has no personal friends involved after all. Or friends in general.

A (19:55)

We're going to use that money to.

B (19:58)

Provide $12 billion in economic assistance to American farmers.

A (20:02)

12 billion is a lot of money. Meryl, what do you think? Peanuts for you though, right? Peanuts.

B (20:08)

She's a farmer of rice.

A (20:10)

Comedy gold, President Trump. Comedy gold. Yes, that's Trump tossing out peanut jokes at a rice grower. On Monday, he unveiled a $12 billion bailout for farmers who are facing higher costs and fewer buyers during the current trade war with China. I wonder. Trade war started, and where does Trump say he'll find $12 billion? Why, from tariff revenue, of course. The policy that hurt farmers is now supposed to rescue them. Absolutely. Because it makes Trump a farming hero. This is a signature magic trick he's pulled before. During Trump's first term, he sent farmers more than $22 billion in aid during a trade war with China, and he sent more in 2020. Those bailouts were not funded by tariff revenue. But you can see the pattern here, right? According to Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins, farmers should see the new aid by the end of February. And who could have predicted that Trump, our master salesman to China, could fail us with pitches like this?

B (21:02)

I told this to President Xi. Our soybeans are more nutritious than competitors.

A (21:10)

Somebody said, is that a Trump statement.

B (21:11)

Or is that real?

A (21:13)

In fact, you know who asked me that question? President Xi asked me that question. President Xi, I was not aware of your game. And that's the news.

A (21:37)

Before we go. Strict Scrutiny is back this week with a wild episode. Trump's maritime murders. Kate, Melissa and Leah bring on Professor Rebecca Ingber to break down the blatant illegality behind the administration's killing of alleged narco terrorists off the coast of South America. They also unpack a busy week of oral arguments, from cases on crisis pregnancy centers to asylum claims to whether your Internet provider can get busted for what you download. Listen to Strict Scrutiny wherever you get your podcasts.

A (22:09)

That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, don't swallow Faberge eggs, and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading, I'm Not. Just about a man in Auckland, New Zealand, who walked into a jewelry store, grabbed a Faberge egg locket valued at around $20,000, and swallowed it. Like me, what a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe@cricut.com subscribe I'm Jane Coston. And good news, the authorities got the egg back. Bad news, they got it back in exactly the way you think.

A (22:57)

What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Emily Foer and Chris Allport. Our video editor is Joseph Dutra. Our video producer is Johanna Case. We had production help today from Greg Walters, Matt Berg, Sean Ali, and Caitlin Plummer. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison, and our senior vice president of news and politics is Adrienne Hill. We had help today from the Associated Press Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. East Foreign.

B (23:42)

Hey, this is Will Arnett, host of Smartless.

A (23:45)

Smartless is a podcast with myself and Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman, where each.

B (23:50)

Week one of us reveals a mystery.

A (23:52)

Guest to the other two. We dive deep with guests that you.

B (23:56)

Love, like Bill Hader, Selena Gomez, Jennifer Aniston, David Beckham, Kristen Stewart, and tons more.

A (24:04)

So join us for a genuinely improvised.

B (24:07)

And authentic conversation filled with laughter and newfound knowledge to feed the smartless mind.

A (24:13)

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