Alex Thompson (2:59)

Thank you so much.

Jane Coston (3:00)

You were one of the first mainstream reporters to really draw attention or try to, to Biden's age. And you were attacked by the Biden administration and Democrats for doing so. But as you were reporting out this book, what surprised even you, someone who'd been following this about the extent to which officials within the administration and on the campaign had been covering up Biden's decline, as title of your book says.

Alex Thompson (3:21)

I guess I would say it this way. The Joe Biden we saw on the debate stage against Donald Trump In June of 2024, the number of times that other people within the White House and within the broader Democratic Party had seen Joe Biden act like that and didn't say anything and just basically like held on and said, I hope this works right. I think that was sort of shocking. The amount of people that knew this.

Jane Coston (3:47)

Is something we, I think, interpreted. But Biden had implied during the 2020 campaign that he would be a bridge candidate to a new generation of Democrats. So what changed? Like, when did it switch from I'm a bridge candidate to I'm running again?

Alex Thompson (4:04)

I don't think anything changed. I think he said the bridge candidate part in the middle of a presidential primary when he knew that there were concerns about his age in order to get over the line of getting the nomination. You know, one person close to Biden had told us he is nothing if not for this. The people that are closest to Joe Biden have, have told me, have told us that like every president runs for two terms. Every president gets eight years. And that desire by him was then reinforced by the family for a variety of different reasons.

Jane Coston (4:37)

So he was lying.

Alex Thompson (4:39)

Well, he never explicitly, he would say he never explicitly promised to be a one term president, but he definitely made people believe it, even though I don't think he ever meant it.

Jane Coston (4:49)

You and your co author, Jake Tapper write about this mentality you refer to as, quote, the Bidenness, this deep belief among Biden's closest allies in his ability to overcome adversity and prove people wrong. And you say it played a big role in justifying his reelection run. And while I think a lot of us know about the ways that Biden has overcome unimaginable tragedies, the death of his first wife and daughter, the death of his son, Beau. Two brain aneurysms. I was really surprised to hear how something far more petty was part of that Biden mentality, and that was resentment over how former president Barack Obama and others in his camp had discouraged Biden from running in 2016. People in Democratic circles, in liberal circles, in 2015, 2016, they wanted him to run. And we're very encouraging of that happening. Can you talk about that a little bit and why those feelings were still festering after he did win in 2020?

Alex Thompson (5:43)

Well, from the Biden perspective, Obama never truly appreciated Biden's gifts. Obama was a bit of a snob. Obama was a bit of like an intellect, part of sort of the intellectual elite that Joe Biden had always resented and felt never took him seriously. I think the fact that Obama clearly preferred Hillary or Biden to be his successor, I think really wounded Biden because what bigger slap in the face is there to say, I think she'd be a better president than you? And Biden never got over it. And it wasn't just Biden. It was that entire core team around him had a deep resentment of a lot of people from Obama world and Obama, which, honestly, it's part of the reason why, despite some of the insinuations that Obama was the puppeteer trying to get Joe Biden out of the race, Obama knew that actually he had to play it very conservative because he knew if he did anything, Biden would get his backup even more right.

Jane Coston (6:43)

And I think that that goes to one of the big tensions within the administration that comes through in your book, which is between staffers whose allegiance was primarily to the United States government and its proper functioning and doing stuff, and the staffers whose primary allegiance was to the Biden family specifically. How did that tension divide the White House in 2024 or in the lead.

Alex Thompson (7:02)

Up to 2024, every single white House, there's always a tug of war between are you more loyal to your boss or are you more loyal to the larger cause that you're part of? As you insinuate, like the. The sort of Biden theology of he'll always come back. They eventually sort of lost sight of the party, the White House, the country, and they saw, like, service to Biden as being the same thing as those other things. As a result, the. The. The Biden White House operated in a way that anyone that even didn't seem completely 110% on board with Joe Biden was, you know, slowly but surely pushed out of the circle Was not given as much access, was not seen essentially, like.

Jane Coston (7:48)

So he was even more insulated than, you know, as this keeps going.

Alex Thompson (7:52)

Yes, absolutely. And there was this protective shell increasingly built around him. Cabinet members couldn't see him. Senior White House officials couldn't see him. In the end, you know, he regularly only had interaction, honestly, usually with like five to 10 people. And they were all hyper loyalists.

Jane Coston (8:09)

In the reception to your book and to talking about this, there's a real temptation to focus on this as being just a family. But it is also not just a politics story story, but a policy story, because there was a lot that the Biden White House wanted to do and a lot that it did do. How did Biden's infirmity impact the Biden White House's policy proposals? The withdrawal from Afghanistan or immigration reform or the inflation Reduction Act?

Alex Thompson (8:37)

I would say there were members of the administration, members of the cabinet, senior Democrats in the Senate and in the House that believed that his age played a significant role in a few different things. First and foremost, the fact that Joe Biden, who had, you know, supported a constitutional amendment for a balanced budget amendment in 1984, had signed the crime bill, was like a hawk on immigration. If you look at Joe Biden's entire career and you look at how he governed the first two years, you would sort of be shocked, like from an objective perspective, because like, Joe Biden was like center left, middle of the road Democrat. And there was a feeling among some members of the Cabinet, some members of the administration, that if he had been 20 years younger, he would not have governed as to the left as he did. And they felt that because he had limited energy, limited time of the day, that as a result, more power flowed down to staff levels. And in particular, Ron Klain, those first two years, his chief of staff. And Ron Klain was to the left of Joe Biden and steered that way. I'd also say people felt that Biden's sort of age, in which he really oriented himself and geared himself towards issues where he felt more comfortable, in particular, like NATO. Ukraine made it so he didn't pay as much attention to, you know, thornier issues like immigration and the border. And, you know, Senator Michael Bennett, we have an anecdote in the book where a Democrat of Colorado goes to an immigration event in June 2024. And he comes out of that event believing that Biden's age is leaving him unable to handle the actual portfolio of this, of this thorny, thorny issue. But, you know, is difficult to tell. I will say Also this. There's a lot of Biden people that will, they will acknowledge that, yes, his schedule was limited. Yes, he didn't have as much energy. Yes, his communication abilities degenerated. But then we'll still insist that his decision making was as good and as sharp as ever behind closed doors.

Jane Coston (10:58)

I realize to some extent this is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking. We are looking back and yelling at each other about it. But it also seems like some signs of Biden's decline were painfully clear to a lot of people and then became even more so to everyone at that debate. You write how Biden needed note cards and teleprompters even during Cabinet meetings. You even spoke to four of the President's own Cabinet secretaries for this book. So how did they rationalize Biden's decline? Or did they?

Alex Thompson (11:26)

I would say the main rationalization that all these people had was Joe Biden beat Donald Trump before Joe Biden is probably in their own minds, probably best decision to beat him again. And Donald Trump is an existential threat to democracy. And if you believe those things, then you can really rationalize anything, right? I'd also say just on a crude, pragmatic level, given how small and insular the circle was, a lot of senior administration officials basically felt, I'm not going to change his mind. There's only like three or four people in the world that could change his mind. If I go public, it's only going to hurt him and help Donald Trump. Now you could argue like that's still sort of like, you know, a cowardly way out, but I do think for some of them it was sincere.

Jane Coston (12:21)

We'll be back for more from Alex Thompson, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts. Watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. What a day is brought to you by Zebiotics Pre Alcohol. Let's face it, after a night with drinks, I don't bounce back the next day like I used to. I have to make a choice. I can either have a great night or a great next day. That is, until I found Pre Alcohol Zebiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration. That's to blame for rough days after drinking, pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Every time I have pre alcohol before drinks, I do notice a difference the next day. Even after a night out, I can still confidently plan on getting in my workout or my long run without worrying. Summer is here, which means more opportunities to celebrate the warm weather before that backyard barbecue, brew, glass of Pinot, watching the sunset at the beach, or a cocktail by the campfire. Don't forget your Zebiotics Pre alcohol Drink one before drinking and wake up feeling great and ready to take on the next day and all that summer has to offer. Go to zebiotics.com wad to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use code WAD at checkout. Zebiotics is backed with a 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com wad and use the code WAD at checkout for 15% off. Summer on the south side of Chicago is heating up. You're planning revenge on two the Chi is back on Paramount. It's a season of the Women.

Alex Thompson (14:22)

Women, this is our chance. It's time to get to work.

Jane Coston (14:25)

But the men aren't giving up without a fight.

Donald Trump (14:27)

Trees off, always gonna have a villain.

Jane Coston (14:29)

No one is backing down in the Showtime Original series from Emmy Award winner Lena Waithe.

Alex Thompson (14:33)

Why do Black women always have to save the day?

Jane Coston (14:36)

If we don't do it, who else will? The shy new season now streaming on the Paramount with Showtime plan.

Alex Thompson (14:43)

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Jane Coston (14:59)

Here's more from my conversation with Alex Thompson. So we know how the story ends for Biden. But I think one of the big questions a lot of Democrats are still asking themselves, and it feels like the book couldn't quite answer, is to what extent was this a concerted effort by a few people to deceive the American public about the limits of a man they knew was no longer fit to hold office versus an inability or an unwillingness to deal with the fact that the Joe Biden that they knew or were around in 2011 was not the same person they were dealing with in 2021, 2022. And they could not and did not want to accept the reality that Biden's best days in politics were already behind him. After reporting out this book, where do you fall?

Alex Thompson (15:42)

It's hard to say. Definitive. I mean, I think there are people in both camps, but even the people in the latter camp, which were basically people that were just in denial, if you look at their actions, they knew that he was struggling. So the best example is Jill Biden. I think if you were to ask her and put her even on truth serum, she would say, Joe Biden is fine. There's not been decline. She said so on the View recently. But if you look at how she acted behind the scenes and in front of cameras, increasingly interjecting in conversations when he was sort of stalling out, increasingly saying, hey, you remember so and so, you know, basically guiding him at events, even if she would not admit it to herself, her actions, I think, speak to the fact that she knew that he was not as able as he once was. And there were a lot of people, even if they were in like, you know, denial rationally by their actions, they knew that he was not as the Biden he once was.

Jane Coston (16:55)

Yeah, and I think that, I mean, that's the part that actually for a lot of people might be kind of familiar because you might have, you know, parents for whom one parent's like, you know, my spouse is fine. And yet they're having to do so much more. Yes, Republicans, because of course they are, are planning to launch their own probe into Biden's health. Senators are planning a hearing this month. Some have even called for a DOJ investigation. How explosive could those be? With the proviso, again, that this is something, you know, Republicans have been basically saying that Joe Biden had dementia in like 2018.

Alex Thompson (17:30)

Whether or not these hearings make a difference, I mean, as you know, like, so many hearings are just like show trials. Just because some Republicans are operating in bad faith and just trying to like, obscure attention from other things still does not make it less newsworthy and interesting to probe this further. I would say, like, for like one instance, me and my colleague at Axios, Mark Caputo, were the first to publish the tapes of the Robert Hur interview for special counsel Robert Hur, who investigated Joe Biden on classified documents and took a lot of heat when he basically said that he couldn't prosecute Biden because he had memory issues and was a well meaning old man. When the transcript of that came out, a lot of reporters and a lot of Democrats sort of bought the spin that Robert Herr was acting in bad faith. If you listen to those tapes, I think it has shifted the conversation. And those tapes only came out, like, a month ago. I think there are going to be more examples of not just the political consequences, but the potential policy consequences of having a man at that age in that position.

Jane Coston (18:41)

I think what was striking for me is that I think, I thought that we're not in the era of Woodrow Wilson having a stroke and Edith Wilson running the White House. We're not in the era of FDR being in a wheelchair and the entire press corps being like, we just won't ever show you in a wheelchair. This is a time in which presidents are rightfully so, more examined, more analyzed, more, you know, observed than at any time in human history. What takeaways did you have from your reporting that you think could be useful going forward for future presidents? You know, whether it is about ensuring that we know more about the health of presidents, whether it is about, you know, something else. I'm just curious as to, you know, as you've been talking about this book and reporting for this book, what do you think could change that? This might not happen again where you couldn't have, essentially, as, you know, the Politburo, protect a president from himself.

Alex Thompson (19:44)

You're right to mention both, like, Wilson and fdr, jfk, like, lied about having Addison's, was taking lots of drugs. George Washington also was not transparent about his health.

Jane Coston (19:55)

Nobody is transparent about their health. Reagan.

Alex Thompson (19:58)

Yes, exactly. And I bring all those examples and to show that, like, Joe Biden is not unique. Right? He won't be unique again unless there is some sort of forcing mechanism. It would take Congress, it would take another branch of government to force a president to actually disclose, like, have a full disclosure of health under, like, penalty of perjury. You could have the White House position, submit documents. President Trump's health summary. First of all, he almost disclosed nothing when he's president. And his recent health summary, there's, you know, it is more than he gave during the campaign, but there's. It still begs many questions, including the fact that, like, do we believe he's like, 6, 3, 2, 15? I mean, maybe.

Jane Coston (20:42)

I'm just saying I don't think he has the same BMI as, like, Jalen hurts.

Alex Thompson (20:48)

I mean, forget Trump for a second. Biden is not the first, he will not be the last. Unless there is, like, some deeper conversation going on about presidential health, especially in the nuclear era, where President, you know, Woodrow Wilson didn't have the ability to blow up the entire world. Neither did fdr.

Jane Coston (21:06)

Right.

Alex Thompson (21:07)

But Joe Biden did and we had no and Donald Trump does right now.

Jane Coston (21:12)

On that reassuring note, Alex, thank you so much for joining me.

Alex Thompson (21:16)

Always a pleasure.

Jane Coston (21:17)

That was my conversation with Alex Thompson. He is the co author of Original Sin with CNN anchor Jake Tapper. Here's what else we're following today.

Alex Thompson (21:32)

Head of lines.

Jane Coston (21:37)

This is D Day anniversary when the Americans once ended a war in Europe. And I think this is in your hand in specific, in ours.

Donald Trump (21:48)

That was not a pleasant day for you.

Jane Coston (21:50)

No, that was not a pleasant. It was in the long run, Mr. President. This was the liberation of my country from Nazi dictatorship. This is German Chancellor Friedrich Mertz attempting to school President Trump at the White House Thursday. They were supposed to talk about trade and the Ukraine war ahead of the anniversary of D Day. But Trump sidetracked the conversation to rant about his once but now ex best friend, Elon Musk. The tech billionaire spent this week crapping on the president's so called big beautiful bill, calling it a, quote, disgusting abomination. You know the bill, the one with the massive tax cuts that would also cut hundreds of billions of dollars in Medicaid funding, which Elon is fine with. In fact, what he wants are more cuts. Trump admits he and Musk are having issues.

Donald Trump (22:38)

Look, Elon and I had a great relationship. I don't know if we will anymore. I was surprised because you were here. Everybody in this room practically was here as we had a wonderful send off. He said wonderful things about me. You couldn't have nicer said the best things. He's worn the hat. Trump was right about everything and I am right about the great big beautiful bill. We call it a great big beautiful bill because that's what it is.

Jane Coston (23:04)

Trump also said he thinks Musk just misses him after leaving the White House last week.

Donald Trump (23:10)

People leave my administration and they love us and then at some point they miss it so badly and some of them embrace it and some of them actually become hostile. I don't know what it is. It's sort of Trump derangement syndrome, I guess they call it.

Jane Coston (23:28)

The spat continued Thursday. At one point, Musk tweeted, quote, time to drop the really big bomb. Ealdonaldtrump is in the Epstein files. That is the real reason they have not been made public. Have a nice day, djt. And he also agreed with a tweet that argued Trump should be impeached. You've heard of enemies to lovers, but what about lovers to enemies, a messy breakup during Pride groundbreaking. And I have to mention here that House Speaker Mike Johnson is still trying to get Elon on the phone. He's ghosted you, girl. I'm sorry.

Donald Trump (24:02)

We will not allow people to enter our country who wish to do us harm, and nothing will stop us from keeping America safe.

Jane Coston (24:11)

President Trump is once again banning whole swaths of people from traveling to the U.S. that's according to a proclamation he issued Wednesday, along with a video. He said the ban starts Monday and would apply to citizens from 12 countries. Brace yourself. Here they are Afghanistan, Myanmar, Chad, the Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. The policy also imposes travel restrictions on nationals from seven other countries Burundi, Cuba, Laos, Sierra Leone, Togo, Turkmenistan and Venezuela. Those nationals can't immigrate to the US but can still apply for some temporary visas. And if you, like me, just said Burundi, Laos. What? Yeah, you're not alone, trump said. The list is subject to change. And if you think you're having deja vu, you are. Trump signed a sweeping travel ban during his first term. It was coined a Muslim ban by critics because it applied to a group of predominantly Muslim countries. It was repealed by former President Biden while Steve Bannon was arguing that Elon Musk should be deported and the weirdest MAGA fans on the Internet were melting down. The Supreme Court made news on Thursday, too. Here are three highlights. Decision number one the court ruled that a Catholic charity in Wisconsin was indeed entitled to a tax exemption that the state court had shot down. The Wisconsin Supreme Court had said the charity serves and employs people of all faiths, and its activities were, quote, primarily charitable and secular. But the U.S. high Court said Wisconsin violated the charity's First Amendment rights. Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote, quote, a law that differentiates between religions along theological lines is textbook denominational discrimination. In decision two, the court sided with a woman who claimed she was subjected to reverse discrimination in the workplace because she's straight. Last but certainly not least, the justices also blocked a lawsuit filed by Mexico. The Mexican government alleged top American firearm manufacturers were responsible for the marketing and distribution of guns to cartels. The court said nah, saying you usually can't sue gun makers for crimes committed with guns.

Marcelo Gomez da Silva (26:26)

My name is Marcelo Gomez da Silva. I don't want to cry, but I want to say that that place, it's not good. It's not good.

Jane Coston (26:36)

That is a Massachusetts high school student and that not good place the Immigration Custody center that he'd been in. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents seized Marcelo Gomez da Silva last weekend when he was on his way to volleyball practice. He spoke to reporters after his release on Bonge Thursday.

Marcelo Gomez da Silva (26:53)

Ever since I got here, they had me in handcuffs. They put me downstairs and I was in a room with a bunch of 35 year old men and those rooms were small compared to the size of like how many men were there. There was like 40 men in there. We would barely get any attention from the people there. It'd be really hard. I haven't showered in six days. I haven't done anything. The only thing I could do is thank God every day because that's all I would do. I would pray there. I would talk about the Bible to them.

Jane Coston (27:23)

Authorities said they were originally looking for Gomez da Silva's father and they had spotted his car. They picked up the son who had been driving that car. Gomez da Silva's lawyer, Robin Nice, spoke to reporters outside the courthouse Thursday. She said her client had no criminal record. This is all a waste. Like we disrupted a kid's life. We disrupted a community's life. These kids should be celebrating graduation and prom, I assume. Like they should be doing kids stuff. And it is a travesty and a waste of our judicial process to have to go through this, nice says. Gomez da Silva first entered the US On a visitor visa and was later issued a student visa that has since lapsed. And that's the news. Before we go. It's Pride Month and the Cricut store is stocked with everything you need. Whether you're marking this month with Joy, Wrath or a delightful combination of both. Wear a Join or Die Pride tee to speak to this moment or add some fun to your month by picking up a Pride bundle for $10 or $20. Just choose your T shirt size and the Cricut Store will send you a surprise selection of Pride tees and accessories. It's like playing the lottery, except you always win. Head to crooked.comstore for all your Pride Month merch. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review and subscribe. Contemplate how the two most powerful people in America spent all day Thursday fighting on the Internet and tell your friends to listen. And if you're underrating and not just about how seriously the two most powerful people in America took it to the timelines like they were about to get dragged into a Real Housewives reunion with Andy Cohen. Like me, what a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe@crooked.com subscribe I'm Jane Costen and it would be funnier if it weren't weird. But it's also still extremely funny. Water Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Foer. Our producer is Michelle Aloy. We had production help today from Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our executive producer is Adrienne Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. East.

Alex Thompson (30:08)

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