Were There Any Winners In The Government Shutdown?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Were There Any Winners In The Government Shutdown?"

Podcast: What A Day
Host: Jane Coaston (Crooked Media)
Date: November 17, 2025
Guests: Tim Miller (The Bulwark), news clips from elected officials

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Main Theme

The episode explores the aftermath of the recent (longest-ever) government shutdown: who, if anyone, really "won" the political fight, what led to the shutdown ending, and what lies ahead for Democrats and Republicans. It features a substantive discussion with Tim Miller of The Bulwark on whether Democrats actually came out ahead—even while facing internal divisions—as well as analysis of related political chaos, infighting, and news on immigration and party fractures.

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Key Segments & Insights

Opening and Context ([00:02]–[02:07])

• Jane Coaston opens with humor and a brief aside about a dog shooting its owner, before shifting to the serious news: the government shutdown is over, Democratic infighting continues, and pressure mounts on Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer.
• Jonathan Karl presses Senator Chris Murphy on Schumer’s future, which Murphy leaves open-ended, stressing the need for Democrats to present a united front.
  • Quote: "We can't continue to operate like this in the Democratic Senate... Democrats are going to lose this democracy if we continue to allow Republicans to cleave off 10 or 12 or 15 of us." — Sen. Chris Murphy ([01:27])

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Was Ending the Shutdown a Democratic ‘Win’? ([02:07]–[05:19])

Guest: Tim Miller (The Bulwark)
Host: Jane Coaston

• Jane introduces Tim Miller, noting his “medium warm” take that Democrats ultimately won the shutdown, contrary to angry voices on the left.
• Key Discussion:
  • Democratic Hand: Miller likens Democrats to poker players with bad cards but says they played their limited hand well by ending the shutdown, which stopped public suffering (e.g., SNAP recipients, fired workers) and left Trump politically weaker amid other scandals.
  • Quote: "Now we're looking at it here, I guess a week or so after they folded. Donald Trump’s in his worst political position... People's lives got tangibly better." — Tim Miller ([04:07])

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Democratic Infighting — and the Path Forward ([05:19]–[07:33])

• Jane notes ongoing Democratic squabbles post-shutdown, often focused on blaming Schumer or each other, which Miller critiques as unhelpful.
• Miller emphasizes that emotional venting—like heckling retiring senator Jeanne Shaheen—is counterproductive and distracts from targeting GOP and Trump.
  • Quote: "If you're of the camp that you're like, I want Democrats to fight harder... then you should heckle the Republicans in New Hampshire. Like heckling a retiring senator might make you feel good... I just do that on X, you know." — Tim Miller ([05:50])
• Strategic Focus: Miller urges Democrats to hammer Trump on rising costs, healthcare, and his ties to the Epstein scandal, leveraging newfound momentum rather than fixating inward.

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Where Next on Epstein — and Congressional Strategy ([07:33]–[08:47])

• Jane references the House Oversight Committee’s recent release of more Jeffrey Epstein correspondence, implicating Trump.
• Miller explains that as Republicans feel pressure, cracks are emerging—and Democrats should press moderate senators and push for more transparency.
  • Quote: "I think that the Democrats should be putting pressure on the Senate to [release Epstein emails]... if they take back the gavel next year... they can start subpoenaing people themselves." — Tim Miller ([07:47])
• Miller also highlights the importance of upcoming House races and redistricting in reclaiming majority leverage.

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The GOP ‘Vibe Shift’ and Democratic Strategy ([08:47]–[11:50])

• Jane observes that the media’s “vibe shift” previously made Trump seem unbeatable, but infighting and scandals now undermine the MAGA coalition.
• Miller argues Democrats should enjoy their modest shutdown win and move on, capitalizing on the decline in Trump’s poll numbers and growing GOP defections (from people like Marjorie Taylor Greene).
  • Quote: "Just a modicum of happiness is allowed in this world, I guess. Look, this goes back to my original point about how I think, spun correctly... the Democrats gained some modest ground politically with the shutdown fight, and they should pocket those winnings..." — Tim Miller ([09:22])
• Outlook: Miller calls for sustained pressure on Trump, especially on issues where he’s weak, instead of intraparty 2028 “pre-fights.”

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Broader Political Developments ([14:14]–[19:12])

Healthcare Negotiations & Partisan Maneuvers

• Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA) and Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH) discuss deeply uncertain prospects for extending healthcare tax credits. Republicans pivot to direct aid language for individuals, Democrats warn of massive rate increases if subsidies lapse.
  • Quote: "It should be a bill to extend those premium tax credits because... if we don't address it, then people are going to see huge rate increases." — Sen. Jeanne Shaheen ([15:50])
• Next government funding and healthcare deadline looms in December.

Trump’s New Immigration Crackdown Target: Charlotte, NC

• Federal agents target Charlotte in high-profile immigration arrests, linked to a much-publicized murder that Trump’s team argues shows “Democrat cities can’t protect residents” (despite the suspect being a citizen).
  • Continued pattern: administration pressing “law and order” themes in Democratic cities.

Trump–Marjorie Taylor Greene Fallout

• Trump now attacks Congresswoman Greene, formerly his ally, labeling her “Marjorie Traitor Greene” on Truth Social after she criticizes him. Greene responds emotionally on CNN and, remarkably, apologizes for her own toxic rhetoric.
  • Quote: "Dana, I think that’s fair criticism and I would like to say humbly, I’m sorry for taking part in the toxic politics. It’s very bad for our country." — Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene ([18:59])
• Greene’s softer positioning fuels rumors of presidential ambitions, but she denies it through her partner.

Ukraine’s New Energy Deal and Security Moves

• Ukrainian President Zelenskyy secures a winter gas import deal from Greece, with further trips to France and Spain to bolster air defense, in response to ongoing Russian attacks.
• Kyiv seeks to restart major prisoner exchanges with Moscow.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Democratic unity:
  “We can’t continue to be split like this or we won’t save our democracy.”
  — Sen. Chris Murphy ([01:27])
• On the shutdown outcome:
  “Democrats are in stronger political position... For me, that was a win, wasn’t amazing... But it was a very small win and I think additional fighting was not gonna yield any better of a results than they got.”
  — Tim Miller ([04:07])
• On party discipline:
  “Heckling a retiring senator might make you feel good and might meet some of your emotional needs... I just do that on X.”
  — Tim Miller ([05:50])
• On Trump’s status:
  “If people start to think, oh, man, this guy’s at like 36% in the polls, he’s having defections from his own side... There’s a lot of things out there in the world that start to change.”
  — Tim Miller ([09:22])
• On Marjorie Taylor Greene apologizing:
  “Dana, I think that’s fair criticism and I would like to say humbly, I’m sorry for taking part in the toxic politics. It’s very bad for our country.”
  — Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene ([18:59])

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Key Takeaways

• Democratic “win” in shutdown was modest but real: Restored government services, protected vulnerable Americans, and left Trump politically weakened.
• Infighting hampers Democrats: Focusing blame on leaders or each other is counterproductive; unity and forward focus (targeting GOP weaknesses—healthcare, cost of living, scandals) is essential.
• Epstein investigation & House races are big opportunities: Democrats should press for transparency and prepare to leverage possible gains in House control.
• GOP teams divided & new “vibe” is emerging: Trump faces internal dissent, with former allies defecting or turning critical.
• Broader context: Shutdown fight is only the opening skirmish; healthcare, immigration, and ongoing Trump scandals will likely dominate the months ahead.

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[End of core episode summary. Advertisements, intros, and outros omitted.]

Transcript

[Jane Costen]

It's Monday, November 17th. I'm Jane Costen, and this is Whataday, the show that has some questions for a dog in Shillington, Pennsylvania, who appears to have accidentally shot its owner in the back last week when his owner put a shotgun on a bed while cleaning it. Or maybe not so accidentally. According to police, quote, it looks like it was an accident, but it's still being investigated. Is anyone listening to the show a dog attorney on today's show, Charlotte, North Carolina, is the Trump administration's latest target in the crackdown on illegal immigration. And President Donald Trump makes his breakup with Georgia Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene public. But let's start with the Democratic Party. The longest government shutdown in American history ended on Wednesday after eight Senate Democrats agreed to a budget package. And the infighting between Democrats who wanted to keep fighting for extended Affordable Care act subsidies and Democrats who wanted to end the shutdown hasn't stopped since. And much of the blame for the end of the shutdown, as in Democrats caving, has landed on Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. Here's Connecticut Democratic Senator Chris Murphy discussing Schumer with ABC's Jonathan Karl on Sunday.

[Jonathan Karl]

Chuck Schumer's taking a lot of heat for this. Do you still have confidence in him as the Democratic leader, and do you think he will still be the Democratic leader after the midterms?

[Kevin Hassett]

Well, we can't continue to operate like this in the Democratic Senate. This is not the first time that a small group of Democrats have crossed over to support Republican measures that give Donald Trump more power. So I've been candid with him and with my colleagues that Democrats are going to lose this democracy if we continue to allow Republicans to cleave off 10 or 12 or 15 of us. So we've got some hard conversations as a caucus moving forward. We can't continue to be split like this or we won't save our democracy. Certainly, when we return to Washington next week, Senator Schumer is going to have to explain to us how we're going to run the caucus differently.

[Jane Costen]

Woof. But here's my what if Democrats ending the shutdown was actually good? That's the argument. My guest for today's episode, the writer and podcaster Tim Miller has been making. And I think the Bulwark writer has a point, because while Democrats are yelling at Chuck Schumer, the GOP is in a mess of its own making. While President Trump has been building ballrooms and bombing alleged drug boats without congressional authorization, the cost of living, including the cost of health care has been skyrocketing. Americans are noticing some Republicans are starting to back away from the White House. And key members of the administration have no answer beyond Joe Biden. Exhibit A. Here's ABC's Jonathan Karl speaking to Kevin Hassett, director of the National Economic Council. On Sunday, they're discussing the President's recent claims that Americans will be enjoying a cheaper Thanksgiving dinner this year.

[Jonathan Karl]

The President claims that Thanksgiving costs are down 25%. I mean, does he know that's not true?

[Kevin Hassett]

Well, if you look at Walmart and the few places that put out their prices.

[Jonathan Karl]

Wait, wait a minute. I got to stop. Because the Walmart comparison's, like, not. I mean, Walmart had a Thanksgiving package last. Got a Thanksgiving package this year. The one this year contains much less than what the one last year took. So that's why the price is less.

[Jane Costen]

But Hassett didn't take the actual cost of actual groceries or smaller grocery packages for a major American holiday for an answer because of the previous administration.

[Kevin Hassett]

I really don't, don't understand where you're going in the sense that Joe Biden gave us. Joe Biden gave us 20%.

[Jonathan Karl]

He's not president.

[Jane Costen]

Donald Trump's president. Great. So here's my conversation with Tim Miller of the Bulwark on who really won the shutdown and what Democrats should do next. Tim Miller, welcome back to what a Day.

[Tim Miller]

What up, Jane? Good to be back.

[Jane Costen]

So you had a medium warm pot take on the government shutdown, namely that Democrats won it. Two questions, why and how.

[Tim Miller]

Great questions, I think about this kind of like a poker game that they're playing. And the Democrats went into the shutdown with, like, basically no political power and no chips. Donald Trump was running roughshod over the government. And the Democrats said, okay, well, this is the one. This is like, we're going all in. This is our one play that we have to make here. It was a pretty risky gamble. Some people got into this thinking the end game was going to be something to the effect of, like, Donald Trump has been slayed or everyone gets free health care now. And it's like neither of those things were actually on the table as possibilities for outcomes. Now we're looking at it here, I guess a week or so after they folded. Donald Trump's in his worst political position. He's been in a long time. He is embroiled in an Epstein scandal. And meanwhile, people's lives got tangibly better. Like, there were people that were gonna lose their snap funding over this fight, and there were people that got fired that are getting their jobs back, who were riffed from the government. Democrats are in stronger political position. They walked away from the table. For me, that was a win, wasn't amazing. Donald Trump is still the president. Republicans still control everything. But it was a very small win and I think additional fighting was not gonna yield any better of a results than they got.

[Jane Costen]

So now that the shutdown is over, we're still in the midst of Democrat on Democrat squabbling which has basically been just all Democrats do. They love a squabble. But I do agree with you that like this administration was not gonna be like, okay, okay, we'll extend the Affordable Care act subsidies. Like this administration was great. Russell Vote is going to cancel everything and fire everybody. So all of this is to say, what do Democrats need to do right now to come together in this moment?

[Tim Miller]

Look, I guess I just wanna start this by saying I agree with people that are like, I want Democrats to fight harder. I'm with you. A little bit of squabbling is okay. What I don't think is useful is just like petty whining constantly and losing focus on the actual threats. And so one example of that over the weekend I saw that Gene Shaheen was speaking at some New Hampshire Democratic function and she's getting heckled and shouted down. Now Jean Shaheen is retiring, okay? She is a retiring senator and that is an open seat next year that is critical. Democrats win. I just think that if you're of the camp that you're like, I want Democrats to fight harder and I think it's really important to take down the Republicans cuz they're so bad and scary and authoritarian. Then you should heckle the Republicans in New Hampshire. Like heckling a retiring senator might make you feel good and might meet some of your emotional needs. Like, which is okay, I have emotional needs to yell at people. I just do that on X, you know. And so I think that the Democrats should unite around the fact that they gave Donald Trump an opportunity to lower people's healthcare costs. He refused to do it. Everybody's pissed about how much everything is costing and how he hasn't solved the affordability crisis. People are pissed about the high cost and low quality of their healthcare. People are pissed about the fact that Donald Trump is covering up his involvement with Jeffrey Epstein in the Epstein files. And Democrats should talk about that a lot and use the what seemed to be a little bit of momentum from the elections a couple weeks ago and from this fight and from Epstein and use that momentum to continue to put pressure on Donald Trump so that he has less political power and less ability to do the authoritarian stuff he wants to do.

[Jane Costen]

You argued also that the end of the shutdown led to Democrats in the House Oversight Committee releasing more of Epstein's correspondence, including emails that referenced President Trump, lots of emails referencing President Trump. Where do you think Democrats should go next on the Epstein investigation, and why?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, look, I mean, you're starting to see, like, a lot of Republicans feel the pressure to fold on this as more information has come out with these subpoenaed files from the Epstein estate that came from the Oversight Committee in the House. And so I think that the Democrats should really be turning their attention to John Thune and putting pressure on Republicans in the Senate and taking. There's one of my senators from Louisiana, basically useless. John Kennedy has basically implied that he thinks that they should be released. This has not been somebody that has broken from Trump really at all. And so I think that the Democrats should be putting pressure on the Senate to do that. Who knows what is in that material? And then I think they need to be preparing for hopefully winning that House back. Those House races are extremely important. This redistricting fight is extremely important, because if they take back the gavel next year and they have a speaker and they control the House Oversight Committee, then they can start subpoenaing people themselves to come testify on this.

[Jane Costen]

In February, March, there was this whole vibe shift thing going on, especially I think, partly a media creation, but partly a real thing that made it seem as if Trump was some unstoppable force because of a 1.5% victory in the popular vote. And now it feels to me like if you're seeing all the fighting going on among Republicans over, like, antisemitism and racism and like, the future of the party in America, first, it feels like the wheels are starting to come off the MAGA expression. How should those of us who want the wheels to come off the MAGA express? How should we respond to that?

[Tim Miller]

Just a modicum of happiness is allowed in this world, I guess. Look, this goes back to my original point about how I think spun correctly, talked about correctly, the Democrats gained some modest ground politically with the shutdown fight, and they should pocket those winnings and move on to the next battle, which now is Epstein, and there'll be another battle after that. And part of the reason for that is that Donald Trump this year has been able to do a lot of the stuff that he's done because of that vibe shift. Right? Like, it isn't. It wasn't like, they had overwhelming votes to pass a lot of new laws that gave Donald Trump new powers. It's like Donald Trump asserted that he had powers. He bullied universities, he bullied law firms, he bullied media companies. And a lot of them were folding because there was this sense in the world that Trump was ascendant and he was gonna use his powers to go. And so it's best to just get on board if that shift changes and if people start to think, oh, man, this guy's at like 36% in the polls, he's having defections from his own side, whether that be Marjorie Taylor Greene or some people in the more of the MAGA media space. And wait a minute, Democrats might be in charge of the House and have subpoena power next year and be able to subpoena me and my company. There's a lot of things out there in the world that start to change, right? Like people start to get a lot more courage. And you see it in various little ways. We're seeing a little bit in this redistricting fight where like in Ohio and Indiana, some of these Republican states, like, looked at that election a couple weeks ago and were like, wait a minute, I don't want to redistrict my seat to be from a seat that I won last time by 15 to being a seat that I won by eight because I might lose now. I don't know if I want to do this. An attitude shift we haven't seen yet that I would like to see is maybe people that are doing illegal stuff on behalf of the Department of Homeland Security and on behalf of the Trump administration might start to think, wait a minute, there will be other people in power at some point in the future. Maybe I shouldn't do this illegal stuff on behalf of a lame duck flailing president. And so to me, that is why the top goal, if you're a Democrat, should not be trying to pre fight the 2028 primary right now, because there'll be plenty of time for that in late 2027 and instead try to continue to put political pressure on Donald Trump in areas where he is weak, like the economy, like the cost of healthcare, like Epstein, so that potentially we can see his numbers continue to erode more.

[Jane Costen]

Tim, as always, thank you for joining me.

[Tim Miller]

Anytime, Jane.

[Jane Costen]

That was my conversation with the Bulwarks. Tim Miller. We'll link to his work in the show notes. We'll get to more of the news in a moment. But if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts. Watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Yes, it's getting cold and getting darker earlier too, and the changing of the seasons can be tough on our physical, emotional and mental health. But we have the power to do something about that with support. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and our 12 years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means we typically get it right the first time. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, Having served over 5 million people globally this month. Don't wait to reach out. Whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist yourself, BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step. Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] wade that's betterhelp.com waad this is.

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[Tim Miller]

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[Jane Costen]

Here's what else we're following today.

[Bill Cassidy]

Head of Lines.

[Jeanne Shaheen]

It's a sweet spot. Lower premiums help with the deductible, making the patient the informed consumer. The President and I are united. We should all be united about that.

[Jane Costen]

Louisiana Republican Senator Bill Cassidy says he's, quote, in communication with the White House about a plan to make healthcare more affordable.

[Tim Miller]

Great.

[Jane Costen]

So now we've gone from concepts of a plan to communication about a plan. Now that the government shutdown is over, Republicans say they'll negotiate with Democrats on whether to extend Covid era tax credits that help tens of millions of Americans afford health care. But coming to an agreement before the subsidies expire at the end of the year will be difficult. Last week, President Trump said that instead of paying insurance companies, he wants the money to, quote, be paid directly to the people of our country so that they can buy their own health care, which, if you think about that for 10 seconds, is stupid. Cassidy gave that idea a little more context in an interview with Face the Nation on CBS that aired on Sunday.

[Jeanne Shaheen]

The president is proposing that we take the $26 billion that would be going to insurance companies if we just do a straight out extension. And by the way, 20% of that 26 billion, 20% will go for profit and administrative overhead, give it directly to the American people in an account in which 100% of the money is used for them to purchase health care on their own terms.

[Jane Costen]

Sure. New Hampshire Democratic Senator Jeanne Shaheen told Face the Nation that while implementing significant changes in the first year will be hard, Democrats need to work with their Republican colleagues on finding a health care resolution.

[Jeanne Shaheen]

It should be a bill to extend those premium tax credits because as everybody has talked about, there is real urgency to get this done and if we don't address it, then people are going to see huge rate increases. So we can work together, we can extend the credits, but we probably can't implement significant reforms that Senator Cassidy was talking about in the timeframe that we've got.

[Jane Costen]

Shaheen was one of eight Senate Democrats that sided with Republicans in the vote to allow the Senate to move forward with reopening the government. The Senate is set to vote in mid December on extending the enhanced tax credits. Department of Homeland Security officials confirmed that federal agents have descended on Charlotte, North Carolina as part of President Trump's crackdown on illegal immigration. In a post on Twitter, U.S. customs and Border Patrol Commander Gregory Bovino said that at least 81 people had been arrested in the city on Saturday, allegedly on a combination of significant criminal and immigration history. Defending the action, Assistant Homeland security secretary Tricia McLaughlin said in a statement, quote, we are surging DHS law enforcement to Charlotte to ensure sure Americans are safe and public safety threats are removed. Yet crime is down in the city this year through August compared with the same months in 2024, according to the consulting firm AH Danalytics. But President Trump's administration has seized upon the fatal stabbing of Ukrainian refugee Irina Zarudska on a Charlotte light rail train to argue that Democratic led cities fail to protect residents. A man with a lengthy criminal record who was, it should be noted, not an immigrant, has been charged with a woman's murder. CBS reports that New Orleans is next on Trump's list with up to 200 federal agents expected to be deployed there. Only a few months ago, Georgia Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene and President Trump were politically inseparable. Here's Trump praising her at a White House event back in March of this year.

[Jonathan Karl]

A quiet woman, but underneath that quiet facade, she's a tiger. Marjorie Taylor Greene, highly respected woman, I tell you.

[Jane Costen]

Thanks, Marjorie.

[Tim Miller]

Great woman, quiet.

[Jane Costen]

But lately that highly respected tiger has changed her stripes and she is not happy with the president. Greene has criticized Trump's foreign policy focus handling of healthcare and pushed for more Epstein files to be released. And her criticism seems to have gotten under his very, very, very thin skin. Trump took the Truth Social on Saturday to threaten her with the possibility of being primaried and labeled her, quote, Marjorie Traitor Green. Here she is responding to the traitor remark on CNN's State of the Union on Sunday.

[Marjorie Taylor Greene]

The most hurtful thing he said, which is absolutely untrue, is he called me a traitor. And that is, that is so extremely wrong. And those are the types of words used that can radicalize people against me and put my life in danger.

[Jane Costen]

CNN's Dana Bash pushed Greene on her own rich history of politically charged rhetoric and MTG did something unheard of in MAGA circles.

[Marjorie Taylor Greene]

Dana, I think that's fair criticism and I would like to say humbly, I'm sorry for taking part in the toxic politics. It's very bad for our country.

[Jane Costen]

She humbly apologized. Is that allowed? Where is Marjorie Taylor Greene and what has the deep state done with her? Greene has recently said a different, more conciliatory tone. That softer rhetoric sparked speculation that she might be eyeing a presidential run, a rumor her boyfriend, conservative reporter Brian Glenn, later denied. So Greene's new comments are par for the course, a notably brown course according to Trump, who called her on True Social quote, Marjorie Taylor Brown because, quote, green grass turns brown when it begins to rot. And they say he's lost his touch. That was Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky announcing that his government has prepared a new gas deal with Greece. The deal signed on Sunday is part of a strategy to keep Ukraine's energy grid afloat as Russian strikes threaten winter supplies. Zelenskyy said Ukraine will import natural gas from Greece this winter to replace energy production lost to Russian strikes. Greece is Zelenskyy's first stop in a multination European tour to bolster Ukraine's energy security and deepen its defense ties. The Greek deal creates a new supply route and helps cover over $2 billion in winter gas imports financed through Ukrainian funds and EU backed loans. Zelenskyy heads to France and Spain next for talks on strengthening Ukraine's air defenses, combat aviation and wider security cooperation. Kyiv is also pursuing long term energy agreements with Poland and Azerbaijan. Ukraine's security chief Rustem Umarov, said he's been in talks with help from Turkey and the UAE to restart prisoner exchange negotiations with Russia to bring 1200 prisoners home. He said that as a result of the talks, the relevant parties agreed to activate the istanbul agreements, a 2022 deal that sets the rules for large organized prisoner swaps. Kyiv hopes to return the captives home by the holidays. Nearly 6,000 Ukrainians have been freed in earlier swaps and that's the news. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, Contemplate the convicted scammer who may not have just scammed JP Morgan for 170 million, but also gotten the massive bank to pay for fancy meals and skincare products while the federal government was trying her for fraud. And tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just about Charlie Jovice, whose fraudulent startup was purchased by JP Morgan before the bank realized her customers were largely fake. But during her trial, she won a ruling requiring JP Morgan to pay her legal fees, which cost something to with do the tune of $60 million like me. What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and [e-mail] subscribe I'm Jayne Coastin and honestly, if you're that good at scamming, you'd probably be really good at doing the job you were faking in the first place. What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Emily Foer and Chris Allport. Our video editor is Joseph Dutra. Our video producer is Johanna Case. We had production help today from Greg Walters, Matt Berg, Kaitlyn Plummer, Tyler Hill and Ethan Oberman. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our senior vice president of news and politics is Adrienne Hill. We had help today from the Associated Press. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. East.

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