What Happens When Rebels Take Over Your Country?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What Happens When Rebels Take Over Your Country?"

Episode Title: What Happens When Rebels Take Over Your Country?
Host/Author: Crooked Media
Release Date: December 14, 2024
Host: Jane Coaston
Duration: Approx. 32 minutes

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Introduction: The Fall of Assad and the Rise of Syrian Rebels

The episode opens with Max Fisher detailing a pivotal moment in Syrian history: the overthrow of longtime dictator Bashar al-Assad by Syrian rebels. After 13 years of devastating civil war resulting in over 600,000 deaths and millions displaced, the rebels' takeover of the capital marks a significant turning point.

At 00:00, Fisher describes the aftermath of Assad's ouster:

"It's been a week since Syrian rebels overtook the country's capital and forced out the longtime dictator Bashar al Assad. This has been a long time coming."

A poignant moment is highlighted at 01:03, where a CNN crew discovers a prisoner hiding in one of Syria's notorious secret prisons:

Erin Ryan: "The light says, oh, God, there is life."

This scene encapsulates the fragile hope and uncertainty gripping Syria as the nation stands on the brink of a new political era.

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Historical Context: Rebel Takeovers Around the World

Max Fisher contextualizes Syria's situation by comparing it to historical instances where rebels have seized control, such as the Communist takeover in China (1949) and the Taliban's resurgence in Afghanistan (2021). These comparisons aim to shed light on the possible trajectories Syria might follow under rebel governance.

At 03:40, Brian Domini, a sovereign risk analyst, discusses Rwanda's economic success post-rebellion:

"The country prides itself as, you know, the Singapore of Africa. And that is primarily premised on the fact that it's relatively open to foreign investors."

This example serves to illustrate that some rebel-led governments can achieve economic stability and growth, challenging the notion that military groups inherently fail at governance.

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The Role of Hayat Tahrir Al-Sham (HTS) in Syria

The centerpiece of the episode is the exploration of Hayat Tahrir Al-Sham (HTS), the rebel group that has assumed control over Syria's capital. Sam Heller, a Syria expert from the Century Foundation, provides in-depth analysis of HTS's governance strategies.

At 04:55, Heller explains:

"Part of what has sustained this experiment in governance is they control. I mean, you know, until recently, about 3 million people, I think about half of them were displaced from elsewhere in the country. So HTS, they've done smart work, kind of imposing a number of taxes, fees in ways that, you know, make their governing project more sustainable and I think also likely feed into their military capability."

HTS's ability to maintain control and provide essential services has been crucial in garnering support from the population, despite the oppressive methods often employed.

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Governance and Bureaucratic Efficiency

HTS's approach to governance is dissected, revealing a blend of military discipline and bureaucratic administration. Sam Heller discusses how HTS has managed to establish a semblance of order and efficiency within their controlled territories.

At 06:03, Heller notes:

"In Idlib, they managed to rationalize checkpoints so you could kind of enter at the start of HTS controlled territory... without incurring new predatory tolls."

This restructuring contrasts with chaotic governance seen in other rebel-controlled regions, such as North Aleppo, highlighting HTS's strategic management of resources and infrastructure.

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Authoritarian Tendencies and Suppression of Dissent

Despite their administrative capabilities, HTS exhibits classic authoritarian traits common among rebel-turned-governing bodies. The episode delves into the inherent challenges and oppressive measures that often accompany such transitions.

At 07:56, Ahmed Al Shara (Abu Mohammed Al Jelani), HTS's leader, emphasizes institutional governance:

"The most important thing is to build institutions. We are not talking about rule by individuals or personal whims."

However, historical parallels suggest that such institutions may evolve into single-party autocracies. Max Fisher references a 2017 BBC clip illustrating the Taliban's restrictive governance:

Brian Domini: "The Taliban used to be free of restrictions, but now we sit in one place behind a desk."

These examples underscore the precarious balance HTS must maintain between appearing legitimate and suppressing potential opposition.

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Comparisons with China, Cuba, and Afghanistan

The episode draws comparisons between HTS's governance and past rebel-led governments like Mao's China and Castro's Cuba, illustrating a pattern of initial promises of freedom leading to authoritarian rule.

Max Fisher recounts Mao Zedong's "100 Flowers Campaign," where initial openness to criticism swiftly turned into mass purges:

"They purged about 300,000 people, stripping them of their jobs and sending many of them to death sentences at forced labor camps."

Similarly, Castro's early days in Cuba showcased grand promises that deteriorated into systematic repression:

"In Havana Sports palace, the Castro regime's controversial showcase trials get underway... the decision, his death."

These historical insights serve as cautionary tales for Syria, indicating potential futures under HTS's rule.

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Legitimacy and International Relations

A significant challenge for HTS is gaining international legitimacy amid widespread designation as a terrorist organization. Max Fisher discusses the necessity for rebel governments to secure foreign aid and investment to sustain their economies.

At 16:57, Sam Heller reflects on HTS's attempts to project moderation:

"They seem smart and pragmatic. It's hard to know if like what is there at base if the their real kind of bedrock ideology."

Despite efforts, accessing global trade remains arduous, as seen in the Taliban's struggles post-2021 takeover. This isolation threatens Syria's economic stability, making HTS's diplomatic maneuvers critical for survival.

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The Future of Syria under HTS

The episode culminates with reflections on Syria's uncertain future. While HTS exhibits organized governance, deep-seated authoritarianism and sectarian biases pose significant threats to genuine democratic transition.

At 22:11, Sam Heller expresses concern:

"Absence some new change, it doesn't seem like it would accommodate Syrian minorities now or also Sunni Muslim Syrians who are not on board with more conservative political Islam and then who want to live a secular existence."

These reservations highlight the potential for continued conflict and marginalization of minority groups, despite initial hopes for liberation from Assad's regime.

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Conclusion: Weighing Rebel Rule Against a Dictatorship

Max Fisher concludes by weighing the grim prospects of rebel governance against the oppressive Assad dictatorship. While rebel-led governments come with their own set of challenges, the alternative under Assad remains dire.

He reflects:

"I would also rather live under any of those rebel governments than under the Assad dictatorship or definitely amid the Syrian civil war."

Sam Heller shares a similar sentiment, expressing worry over Syria's trajectory:

"I'm like very worried for what comes next."

The episode leaves listeners with a nuanced understanding of the complexities involved when rebel groups transition into governing bodies, emphasizing the fine line between liberation and authoritarianism.

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Notable Quotes

• Erin Ryan, 00:00: "The light says, oh, God, there is life."
• Brian Domini, 03:16: "The country prides itself as... the Singapore of Africa."
• Sam Heller, 04:55: "They've done smart work, kind of imposing a number of taxes..."
• Ahmed Al Shara (Abu Mohammed Al Jelani), 07:27: "We are not talking about rule by individuals or personal whims."
• Sam Heller, 16:01: "There is some sort of basic Islamism on which they have been unwilling to compromise or abandon."
• Sam Heller, 22:11: "It doesn't seem like it would accommodate Syrian minorities now..."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of What A Day offers a comprehensive exploration of the dynamics at play when rebel groups ascend to national power. Through historical parallels, expert analysis, and on-the-ground narratives, listeners gain a multifaceted perspective on the potential paths Syria may navigate in its quest for stability and governance post-Assad.

Transcript

[Max Fisher]

It's been a week since Syrian rebels overtook the country's capital and forced out the longtime dictator Bashar al Assad. This has been a long time coming. Syria has been mired on civil war for 13 years. The fighting has killed 600,000 people. It displaced millions. And now hopefully it's over. But a lot is happening very quickly. You may have heard a clip that's been going around of a CNN crew touring one of the country's infamous secret prisons. Syrians lived in fear of these places for decades. Just during the war, about 100,000 people were locked up in them, and most of them never came out. Rebels have mostly freed the survivors. So when that CNN crew went into one of those prisons on Wednesday, they expected to find it empty. But instead, the reporter and her team found a man hiding under a blanket, said he'd been there for days, hadn't realized the government had even fallen. So the CNN crew picked him up, gave him some water, and they walked him outside into a liberated Syria. Here he is.

[Erin Ryan]

The light says, oh, God, there is life.

[Max Fisher]

This seems to be sort of the mood in Syria right now. It's a moment of hope and relief, but also of uncertainty and change because pretty much everyone is happy that the old dictatorship is gone. But no one knows what to expect from the new government, which is made up, of course, of the rebels who just took the Capitol. Will they be tolerant, pluralistic or despotic and cruel? Will they govern wisely or capriciously? How will they align Syria within the politics of the Middle East? Put another way, that guy we just heard, the release prisoner, what sort of country is he walking back into? I'm Max Fisher. Erin Ryan is out this week. And this is how we Got here, a series that explores a big question behind the week's headlines and then tells a story that answers that question this week. What does it mean for your country when the guys with guns suddenly take over? How does that work, and what does it look like? To answer that, we're going to tell stories from the very, very small handful of other countries where rebels have taken over like this, as in maybe seven or so ever. Some of those you've heard of, like the Communist fighters who took over China in 1949 and whose successors still rule it, or more recently, in Afghanistan by the Taliban just three years ago. We'll also hear from a guy named Sam Heller. Sam is a Siri expert based in Beirut with a US Think tank called the Century Foundation. He's been following this rebel group for a long time and he had some interesting insights about how they behave and what to expect from their sudden rise to power. But first, I want to play you a clip that highlights one of the things that rebel run governments, not all of them, but many of them tend to be good at, and that's running the economy. Yeah, that's right. The guys who stormed the presidential palace with Kalashnikovs. Under those fatigues, they might be a bunch of Warren Buffets. This clip is from a segment that ran a few years ago on CNBC Africa about rising incomes and investment in Rwanda. Rwanda, of course, was the site of a terrible genocide in the 90s which ended with the country being taken over by ethnic rebels who have ruled it ever since. Joining me to take a look at.

[Erin Ryan]

Why the country is referred to as the beacon of East Africa, Brian Domini.

[Max Fisher]

A sovereign risk analyst at R and B. Brian, just give us your views, Ron. Right now on the fantastic growth story.

[Erin Ryan]

That we have had in Rwanda.

[Brian Domini]

The country prides itself as, you know, the Singapore of Africa. And that is primarily premised on the fact that it's relatively open to foreign investors. And in addition, the ease of doing business there is amongst the best.

[Max Fisher]

This is actually an entire series that CNBC Africa ran called Doing Business in Rwanda because it had become so attractive to investors. So what's going on here? There's this line by a political scientist named Terence Lyons. A successful rebel group is simultaneously a political party, a military organization and a business. The reason for this is that path from rebellion to victory can take years, maybe decades. And that takes money, takes a lot of it. You gotta buy guns, cars, gear. You gotta pay your fighters, you gotta feed them. And as rebels advanced, they also have to rule within the territory that they take over. That means collecting taxes, providing services, keeping businesses open, and doing it all effectively enough that the people in your territory will prefer you to the actual official government. This is a good time to introduce the rebel group that's taking control in Syria. Hayat Tahrir Al Sham. You also hear them called Tahrir Al Sham or just hts. And while HTS has a lot of experience operating as a business, they spent the last basically 10 years running an entire region of Syria called Idlib Province. Here's Sam Heller, the Syria expert I spoke to on the group's time in charge of the mini Syria within Syria.

[Sam Heller]

Part of what has sustained this experiment in governance is they control. I mean, you know, until recently, about 3 million people, I think about half of them were displaced from elsewhere in the country. So hts, they've done smart work, kind of imposing a number of taxes, fees in ways that, you know, make their governing project more sustainable and I think also likely feed into their military capability. But they've also done everything they can to maintain flows of internationally supported humanitarian assistance via Turkey. I think that that equilibrium there, that balance, has been essential to keeping this HTS controlled pocket afloat.

[Max Fisher]

Later in our conversation, I was asking Sam how HTS managed to come out on top of all the different rebel groups that control these little patches all over Syria. And he told this story that seemed pretty revealing. It's not a story about their bravery in combat or their strategic genius. It's a story about them being a good bureaucracy. Here's Sam.

[Sam Heller]

There were definitely, like, points to recommend their administration. I think, you know, in Idlib, they managed to rationalize checkpoints so you could kind of enter at the start of HGS controlled territory, I think, maybe pay a duty if necessary, but then, like, receive a paper that would allow free passage through subsequent checkpoints without, like, incurring new predatory tolls. Whereas, you know, in, like, north Aleppo, it sounds like you would get extorted by various checkpoints. There was no coordination between them, which was, like, obviously unpleasant, but then also, I think, lead to a sort of security chaos, too.

[Max Fisher]

You hear a lot like this about Tahrir Al Sham's rule over its rebel enclave. They're organized, disciplined, focused on services. That does not mean that they are enlightened or benevolent, of course. It just means they see the value of governance in achieving their aims. And this really comes through in interviews with the group's leader, a guy named Ahmed Al Shara, or better known by his nom de ger, Abu Mohammed Al Jelani. To hear Jelani talk, he sounds like a Bhol grad student. Here he is speaking last week to cnn. Quick note. The voice you hear is a translator. In the past, you have talked about strict Islamic rule. Is that still the plan?

[Ahmed Al Shara (Abu Mohammed Al Jelani)]

People who fear Islamic governance either have seen incorrect implementations of it or do not understand it properly. We are talking about something that aligns with the traditions and nature of the region. The most important thing is to build institutions. We are not talking about rule by individuals or personal whims. It's about institutional governance. Syria deserves a governing system that is institutional, not one where a single ruler makes arbitrary decisions.

[Max Fisher]

This actually tracks with how rebel governments typically behave in power. Some of them govern better or worse than others, of course, but they all tend to be highly bureaucratic, highly institutionalized. Lots of rules, procedures like, think of China, this huge sprawling government with all these big technocratic ministries. And this makes sense, right? Insurgencies are military outfits. They run on hierarchies and internal orders. So they tend to set up states that work along the same principles. But that doesn't mean they wield those bureaucracies to do good, and it certainly doesn't mean they're democratic. Of the seven rebel groups to ever take power according to one classification, every single one became a single party autocracy, every one. And there are a few likely reasons for that. One is again, it's a military organization, so it governs like one with a strict chain of command and an emphasis on order. And again, remember that before rebels come to power, most will have spent years running some patch of territory they've taken over as they have advanced. Even if they're greeted as liberators, they're still taking that territory by force, they're ruling it by fiat, and they're holding onto it through violence. So they learn to govern as authoritarians. To show you what I mean, here's a clip from a 2017 BBC reporter who traveled into Taliban held territory in Afghanistan. This was before the group took over the country as a whole, but it ended up being a pretty good guide for how they'd rule.

[Brian Domini]

That evening we are taken to see what passes for nightlife in Musakallah. Since the end of the Taliban's bloody campaign, some security has returned to the district, but freedoms are limited away from the minders. One teenager tells me he got 40 lashes for watching a Bollywood film. Mobile phones are banned, ordinary people, as is filming and playing instruments. But many rules are not enforced. This man is open about being an opium dealer.

[Max Fisher]

But there's more behind the authoritarian impulse that rebel governments seem to have a hard time shaking, even when they make big promises about ushering in democracy. Because rebel run governments know when they come into power that they are vulnerable. No one voted for them. They can't trust anyone outside their own ranks. A lot of the country took up arms to keep them from power and could take up arms again if things go poorly. So they're insecure. Insecure about dissent, about tolerating competing political actors, about holding elections that might see them lose the hold on power they sacrificed so much to win. Here again is Sam Heller, the Syria analyst, on how the Syrian rebel group Tahrir Al Sham has ruled over its enclave in northern Syria.

[Sam Heller]

One by one, they crushed like either like fully dismantled or just kind of subordinated any sort of rival factions inside Idlib. They also eliminated a number of like a dissident, like kind of uncooperative elements within HTS itself, including some more like extreme or Al Qaeda loyal elements that were intransigent and it seems like they they carried out detentions, torture. I mean they had their own idlib sized security apparatus I think like not on the scale of Damascuses. Yeah. And then like not responsible for the same type of like systematic mass torture and death, but authoritarian nonetheless. And it was only, I mean it was earlier this year that I think they faced protests across Hitlib demanding liberation of detainees and Giolani stepped down and then they met those with violence.

[Erin Ryan]

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[Max Fisher]

There's a lot of variation across rebel controlled countries as to how free they are or aren't, what kinds of rights people have and what sorts of avenues for genuine political activity. So I don't want to give the impression that it's some foregone conclusion that Syria's new rebel government will be iron fisted authoritarians. Still, I would not hold your breath for real elections in the country. Here's a clip from just a few days ago of a reporter From Britain's Channel 4 News asking the Syrian rebel spokesman about their plans for a political transition and listen to him dodge the question about elections.

[Channel 4 News Reporter]

Do you have a timescale for elections?

[Brian Domini]

Currently we are in the three month.

[Max Fisher]

Interim phase before forming a new government. These are the steps we are working on. It is still too early to talk about the details of how that government will be formed. Now we have to focus on reactivating Syria's institutions. This is a good moment to raise a question that has followed this Syrian rebel group for years and years. What do they actually believe? Are they, you know, violent religious extremists? And the answer? I gotta say it's not a clean no. Like a lot of Syrian armed groups, it's changed names and affiliations over time. It's merged with other groups and splintered off. But early in the war, around 2012, Jelani and his group were associated with the Islamic State and then broke off from them and switched allegiance to Al Qaeda. That didn't last. The group broke off from Al Qaeda two years ago and became more of a traditional rebel group. Jelani has talked about moderating and his groups rule over that Syrian mini state is a far cry from anything resembling like isis, ultra conservative caliphate rule. But still, it's not exactly comforting to hear that an entire country has been taken over by a group that used to pledge allegiance to Al Qaeda. Right? I asked Sam about it.

[Sam Heller]

People talk about these questions about to what extent they've moderated or like fully divorced themselves from transnational militancy from extremism. I mean it is really an open question at this point what they do believe. They seem smart and pragmatic. It's hard to know if like what is there at base if the their real kind of bedrock ideology. It seems like there is some sort of basic Islamism on which they have been unwilling to compromise or abandon. The more they kind of evince like real opportunism and transactionalism. I mean in some cases, like that is good, right? Because it means that they're like people that you can, you can deal with and then you can arrive at like real productive agreements. But then, yeah, like how that balances with their ideological priors is still, you know, remains to be seen.

[Max Fisher]

Remains to be seen. That is a phrase you hear a lot when rebels come to power. And it's not just because they're sort of blank slates. It's because they almost always come to power promising reconciliation, national unity, all coming together in forgiveness and talk. The rebels who took over uganda in the 80s did this as one of their first official acts. The rebels who took over a few years later in Ethiopia held peace and stability committees in Rwanda. They promised to share power in a pan ethnic unity government. There's a reason they do this. Rebel governments crave above all else, building a sense of legitimacy because they're not really the government until the country collectively accepts them as the government. Until then they're just a bunch of guys in fatigues occupying some office buildings in the capital and promising national reconciliation. It's a way to get people bought in quickly by promising forgiveness if they accept your one time offer to lay down arms and accept that you're in charge. So wouldn't you know it, Jelani, the Syrian rebel leader, is promising something similar. His government is talking about amsties for government, soldiers and national unity. Here he is again in that CNN interview. Many Syrians are happy and will be happy to see the end of the Assad regime. But they're also worried about what HTS rule would mean, including minorities.

[Ahmed Al Shara (Abu Mohammed Al Jelani)]

No one has the right to erase another group. These sects have coexisted in this region for hundreds of years and no one has the right to eliminate them. There must be a legal framework that protects and ensures the rights of all, not a system that serves only one sect as Assad's regime has done.

[Max Fisher]

Here's the thing about all those national reconciliation promises we get from rebel governments. A lot of them turn out to be kind of fake. Those promises of power sharing, forgiveness, governing for Everyone, they don't always get made good. Here's one really infamous example. In China, a few years after the communist insurgents took power, their leader Mao Zedong, maybe you've heard of him, said that he wanted to quote, Let 100 flowers bloom in social science and arts and let 100 points of view be expressed just in the field of science. And what he was saying is that he was basically asking for academics and intellectuals to freely criticize his new government so that he could learn what they were doing wrong and improve. This was a big step since these social groups were seen as allied with the old regime. Felt like a way to win their buy into the new order. They called it the 100 flowers campaign. And it worked at first. Newspapers ran editorials offering constructive criticism. Scientists and researchers wrote long letters on how Mao could fix various problems facing the country. Somewhere along the way, though, Mao changed his mind about allowing all this criticism. Or maybe it had always been a ruse. But either way, he purged about 300,000 people, stripping them of their jobs and sending many of them to death sentences at forced labor camps. It's not unusual when rebels take over to see these kinds of recriminations against whole social groups seen as loyal to the old order. But consider what happened in Cuba when, after years of fighting, communist insurgents led by Fidel Castro took over in 1959. Here first is a news clip from the first days of Castro's takeover.

[G]

Joyous followers of Fidel Castro sweep triumphantly through the Cuban capital hours after their rebellion had toppled the regime of Fulgencio Batista. Rebel fighters fresh from the battlefield in central Cuba pour into the capital to impose martial law and quell the rioting. Beards, a style established by Castro himself, are the uniform of the day.

[Max Fisher]

The rebels so sounds nice, right? Celebration, parades, order, stability. Castro also promised justice for the worst offenders in the old dictatorship. And that is something that Jelani has promised too. But Castro's justice turned into summary execution of former government officials and then more executions by the hundreds, along with torture and mass arrests. Here's another news clip from Cuba just a few weeks after his takeover.

[G]

In Havana Sports palace, the Castro regime's controversial showcase trials get underway before a turbulent throng of 18,000. Batista aide Major Sosa Blanco, charged with 200 murders, faces a military tribunal. Three judges still wearing the revolutionary's jungle battle dress. Emotions climb the nine hour trial. As the testimony piles up, this woman charges Blanco murdered her husband. The decision, his death. Later comes word the trials will continue, but not in the sports arena.

[Max Fisher]

I'M not saying this is for sure going to happen in Syria too, but it would not be unusual if it did. What starts as truth and reconciliation as a way to bring people together can spiral into this mass scale revenge. Because the top priority of any new rebel government, remember, is winning people over, winning public legitimacy and stamping out any potential rivals. And if the rebel rulers come to believe that show trials and public executions are the best way to do that, then that's usually what happens. I asked Sam whether we've gotten any hints as to which path Tahrir Al Sham seems likely to take, mass reconciliation or mass purges.

[Sam Heller]

They said that basically there is a class of like top former regime leadership, including some names. I saw like an infographic circulated, but I haven't checked if it was official, where, like, they promised to prosecute and then likely punish capitally, whereas they've announced a, like a broad amnesty for conscript soldiers and Syrian government officials. As they were marching south, they issued a number of statements reassuring, like Syria's different kind of demographic, sectarian constituencies, that they considered them part of Syria, that they would not, you know, face reprisal. I mean, the question is like, how long that obtains. And then also, again, like, there's this question that I have of control and then just how much they can really keep a lid on, like more spontaneous acts of retribution. There's definitely people in the armed opposition that I think do not have a nuanced understanding of which Syrian social, social groups they hold accountable for the conduct of the Assad government and they want to get revenge.

[Max Fisher]

A lot of people share Sam's concern about the rebels targeting or marginalizing minorities seen as allied with the old dictatorship. Again, it's something that rebel governments do a lot when they take power. They're paranoid about uprisings or facing their own rebellion. I mean, who would know better how deadly that can be? So they often look askance at whole social classes they see as potential sources of opposition. Sometimes that just means treating them as second class citizens and sometimes it's more drastic. Let's go back to China. When Mao's communist army took over in 1949, one of the first things they did, one of the very first things, was to round up rural landowners. Why rural landowners? They had a lot of money and power in China at the time, and they generally supported the old government, which made them a potential threat. Here's a clip from a PBS documentary about it.

[Erin Ryan]

Speak bitterness. Meetings were held in which the landlords and others linked to the defeated nationalists were confronted and Denounced by the peasants.

[Max Fisher]

We were told to get together and ask the landlords to return land to us. We stated how much they should return and how they should return it. There was a denunciation meeting every day. These show trials got held in villages around the country. Mao actually bragged that the campaign killed 2 million people. Historians think it was closer to 200,000. But that is still four times as many people who've been confirmed killed in Gaza so far. Most rebel governments have been less brutal than that, but they still tend to do some version of it. In Cuba, Castro's rebels made clear to landowners and middle class people that they were not welcome anymore. And about a quarter of a million Cubans fled the country, mostly for the us. Syria's rebels are promising not to do this kind of thing. But when I asked Sam about it, he pointed out that the rebels definition of what counts as inclusive might still mean putting the country's Sunni Muslim majority on top. Here's Sam.

[Sam Heller]

HDS is a Sunni sectarian entity. That is how they define themselves and their political project. It hasn't allowed space for like real participation by minorities in Idlib previously, you know, absence some new change, it doesn't seem like it would accommodate Syrian minorities now or also Sunni Muslim Syrians who are not on board with more conservative political Islam and then who want to live a secular existence. So that's like an obvious point of future tension.

[Max Fisher]

So there are exceptions to this trend. When the Taliban took power In Afghanistan in 2021, they made a big show of saying they wanted people to stay even if they had supported the old government. And they were open about why the Taliban had actually taken power once before in 1996. They're the only rebel group to ever take power twice. And that first time, like Mao or Castro, they declared a lot of groups unwelcome. Most educated people fled and without them, the Taliban had a harder time, you know, running the economy or staffing out hospitals. Jelani, the Syrian leader, has said that he's been studying the Taliban's experience in taking power, like what worked and didn't. And his rebel mini state in northern Syria has been recruiting educated Syrians who'd fled abroad during the war to help them run it. But that's not all Jelani has been trying to learn from Afghanistan. He's focused, he said, on understanding how the Taliban dealt with winning over foreign governments like the United States. This is a really tricky challenge for rebel rulers and it's an existential one. World governments tend to be really hostile to rebel takeovers. They just don't want to legitimize them for fear of emboldening more, maybe even within their own borders. You're already seeing this from some of Syria's neighbors, like Jordan. So rebels often come to power finding that the world has locked them out of global trade and finance. That is especially true for rebels like the ones in Syria who are designated by foreign governments as terrorists and so legally cannot receive receive most foreign aid or trade at the same time. Rebels, by definition come to power in the wake of long civil wars. These are places that can't grow their own food or produce their own electricity. They need to get in foreign aid, they need global investment for reconstruction and they need to do it fast or they can see their economy collapse as quickly as they took it over. This is why Jelani is so focused on learning from Afghanistan. When the Taliban came to power, one of the very first things they did was to turn around and tell foreign governments, basically, we will do or say whatever you want, we'll be friendly this time, just please let us access the global economy. And the United States and the United nations mostly agreed. They said they wanted to cut through the sanctions and get aid into the country quickly. But it took months and months to carve out legal permission just for aid groups to operate in Afghanistan. During the wait, the country actually ran out of currency, ran out of money. Here's a clip from the UK's Channel 4 news on what that does to a country four months after the Taliban takeover. Afghanistan. Afghanistan is in a state of economic catastrophe with more than half its people unable to feed themselves. 60% of the population is in acute hunger. And that was with the world actually trying to open up Afghanistan's economy. So you can imagine how bad things would get in Syria if world governments decided not to try. Which is why Jelani is trying so hard to show a friendly, non threatening face to the world. Is it genuine? Is it sincere? I mean, it might be years before we find out, but his incentives at least all point towards at least playing at moderation. So where does all this leave us? I think what I keep coming back to is that, yeah, rebel governments are not the nicest, but the thing they just deposed in Syria, the Assad dictatorship really was one of the cruelest and most oppressive in the world. It genuinely was that bad. So I think where I'm left is that sure, I'd rather live in the United States than under any of the rebel run governments we talked about, especially in those first years after they took power. But I'd also rather live under any of those rebel governments than under the Assad dictatorship or definitely amid the Syrian civil war. Sam's feelings were also mixed when I asked about Syria's future. Here he is.

[Sam Heller]

I think like the normal response to this is like excitement. I don't know. I'm just very caught up with, I think, my concerns about this and what's next informed by, you know, my previous work when I was trying to understand more about how Syrian insurgent control had functioned. Something I came away from with like a pretty jaundiced view of like how that worked in practice. So I'm like very worried for what comes next.

[Max Fisher]

Okay, let's go out with a lighter look at the hardships of rebel rule. Here's Bill Maher. Last year reading a Vice news story about what the Taliban learned when they put down their guns and picked up their government ministry office passes.

[Channel 4 News Reporter]

Hussafa, a former sniper, said, life was simple and free during jihad. The Taliban used to be free of restrictions, but now we sit in one place behind a desk. Don't you hate that? Mansou, great guy, complained about the air with the traffic. I am not making this up, he said. Last year it was tolerable, but now it's become more congested. We had a great degree of freedom. These days you have to go to the office before 8am and stay there till 4.

[Max Fisher]

How we got Here is written and hosted by me, Max Fisher and Erin Ryan. Our producer is Emma Ilick Frank. Evan Sutton mixes and masters the show. Jordan Kanter sound engineers the show. Audio support from Kyle Segment, Charlotte Landis and Vasilis Vitopoulos. Production support from Leo Duran, Raven Yamamoto and Adriene Hill.

[Emma Ilick Frank]

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[Erin Ryan]

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