What If Abortion Meant Prison... Or Worse?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: What A Day

Episode: "What If Abortion Meant Prison... Or Worse?"

Host: Jane Coaston

Guest: Jessica Valenti

Date: June 18, 2026

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Overview

This episode of What A Day focuses on the accelerating push by anti-abortion activists and state legislators to criminalize abortion in unprecedented ways—up to and including charging abortion seekers with homicide, and even making them subject to the death penalty. Host Jane Coaston is joined by Jessica Valenti, creator of the "Abortion Every Day" Substack, to discuss the rise of “abortion abolitionist” bills, misogyny within the anti-abortion movement, and what pro-choice advocates need to do to meet this moment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Expanding the Scope of Abortion Criminalization

(Starting at 00:00 and 06:24)

• Shifting the Overton Window:
  Jessica Valenti sounds the alarm about anti-abortion activists seeking to normalize criminal punishment—including life in prison or death—for those who seek abortions.

  “They are really very proactively trying to shift that Overton window and get people used to the idea that it is okay to punish abortion patients. If they can't do it with life in prison or the death penalty right away, they'll try to figure out another way to do it. No, they are, they are moving to the next step.”
  — Jessica Valenti [00:00 & 12:49]

• The North Carolina Proposal:
  Jane Coaston and Valenti highlight a bill in North Carolina that would allow for the state constitution to be amended—declaring that life begins at conception and equating abortion with murder. As written, the bill:

  • Classifies abortion as murder for both providers and patients.
  • Fails to exclude certain forms of birth control, raising questions about IUDs and morning-after pills.
  • Allows for the use of “deadly force in defense of a fetus, embryo, fertilized egg”—potentially justifying violence against doctors, clinic escorts, or even those driving someone to a clinic.

  “…so broad that you could also make the argument that killing someone who is driving a person to an abortion clinic, who is lending them money, is being done in defense of a fetus.”
  — Jessica Valenti [07:31]

2. The Rise of “Abolitionist” Factions

(Starting at 08:22)

• Broader Legislative Trends:
  Over a dozen states have seen similar “equal protection” or “abortion abolitionist” bills, reflecting a coordinated push. These groups aim to give constitutional personhood (and thus criminal protection) to embryos/fetuses, arguing they deserve the same treatment as any living person.

  “They're being pushed by this really radical group … called Abortion Abolitionists … they are gaining power, culturally, politically. They have a really unfortunately good political ground game.”
  — Jessica Valenti [08:22]

• Mainstream Right Embracing Extremes:
  Not long ago, proposals to criminalize abortion seekers were dismissed as fringe. Now, national anti-abortion groups like Students for Life are endorsing such measures, and state GOP platforms are explicitly referencing “abolitionist” language.

  “For the first time, a major national anti abortion group, Students for Life Life, endorsed that legislation. … We're really seeing like the so-called mainstream anti-abortion movement get on board.”
  — Jessica Valenti [13:30]

3. Misogyny at the Heart of the Movement

(Starting at 14:16)

• Internal Dynamics:
  Coaston and Valenti observe that the most extreme rhetoric comes largely from men within the anti-abortion movement, both targeting abortion seekers and diminishing women leaders within their own circles.

  “These guys are misogynist, ultra right wing Christian nationalists. Right. Like they have a very specific idea about what women's place is. These are the same guys who don't want women to vote. … They don't think women are people.”
  — Jessica Valenti [15:12]

4. Where Does the Abortion Rights Movement Go From Here?

(Starting at 16:00)

• Current Pro-Choice Strategy Shortcomings:
  Valenti asserts that abortion rights advocates have spent too much time reacting to emergencies and not enough preparing for sustained, strategic battles.

  “For way too long … the mainstream abortion rights movement, mainstream Democratic legislators, they don't take these kinds of things seriously. They think that these are outliers. … We need to start taking them really seriously. … really looking ahead 10, 20, 30 years …”
  — Jessica Valenti [16:19]

• Concrete Recommendations:

  • Pro-actively force legislators to go on record—i.e., bills stating “we will never prosecute abortion patients.”
  • Draw lessons from recent efforts to codify contraception access at the federal level.
  • Balance urgency with clarity, so people aren't misled or paralyzed by fear, but understand how swiftly the political situation is shifting.

  “This is an emergency, right? … The sooner that we can, like, really get on board and make this a central piece of the movement, the better.”
  — Jessica Valenti [17:48]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On legislative overreach:
  “His argument was, well, we don't execute that many women anyway, so it's not really that big a concern when that bill was put forward in Tennessee.”
  — Jane Coaston [11:21]

• On internally policing the movement:
  “When anti-abortion activists who are women push back, there's basically this weird, you're not going far enough. You're just, you know, a simple stupid woman. You don't understand what we need to be doing.”
  — Jane Coaston [14:40]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 – Introduction / Jessica Valenti on shifting the Overton window to normalize criminal sanctions
• 06:26 – North Carolina legislation overview and dangerous ambiguities
• 08:22 – Spread of extreme bills and rise of abolitionist anti-abortion activism
• 12:49 – Escalation from bans to prosecution; mainstreaming of extreme positions
• 14:16 – The role of misogyny internally within the anti-abortion movement
• 16:19 – Critique of pro-choice strategy and recommendations for proactive defense

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Conclusion

Valenti and Coaston's conversation paints a chilling picture of where the U.S. anti-abortion movement is heading: emboldened, more organized, and unafraid to pursue criminalization—even execution—of those seeking abortions. The guests urge abortion rights advocates to take these threats seriously and prepare to fight not just today’s emergency, but tomorrow’s coordinated campaigns.

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For more, follow Jessica Valenti via her Substack, “Abortion Every Day.”

(End of episode content.)

Transcript

[Jessica Valenti]

They are really very proactively trying to shift that Overton window and get people used to the idea that it is okay to punish abortion patients. If they can't do it with life in prison or the death penalty right away, they'll try to figure out another way to do it. No, they are, they are moving to the next step.

[Jane Coaston]

I'm Jane Costen and this is what a day show that's wondering how Vice President J.D. vance really felt when his boss declared him the official scapegoat of the Iran war. President Trump said yesterday that he was

[J.D. Vance]

gonna blame you if the talks of Iran go sideways.

[Jessica Valenti]

Are you worried that he's gonna make

[Jane Coaston]

you the fall guy?

[J.D. Vance]

No, not at all. I think the President was joking.

[Jane Coaston]

Oh, honey. Maybe ask former Vice President Mike Pence about what a hilarious guy President Donald Trump really is. On today's show we talk to Jessica Valenti about the next front in the abortion fight and the scary state level anti abortion legislation you may not have heard about. Before we get into all that, here's what we're following today, Thursday, June 18th.

[J.D. Vance]

So I guess I would say to anybody, any of the critics is, number one, have a little bit of faith in the President, United States. The idea that he is going to strike a deal, that's been bad for the American people. It's preposterous.

[Jane Coaston]

Preposterous. Vice President J.D. vance has the unfortunate task of spinning the new U.S. iran memorandum of understanding or if you will surrenderandum of understanding and spoiler alert, it's not going over well. That's because this agreement foresees effectively pumping Iran full of money by unfreezing hundreds of billions of dollars held in foreign banks and letting Iran sell oil right away. It does not include a long term resolution to the Iranian nuclear standoff and at least not on paper. So we went from we're going to destroy your civilization to eh, do whatever after days of will, he won't he. The President went ahead and signed the MoU during a visit to the French palace of Versailles. That makes this the second most important document signed there after the treaty that famously ended World War I and paved the way for World War II. Trump's memo of Versailles stops fighting for 60 days, so Vance has plenty of time to scramble for a much better final deal. And for Vance's sake, that new deal better be a big improvement because even Republicans think what Trump just signed is bullshit. Fox News host Trey Gowdy said yesterday he thought he was being spoofed after reading the MoU because of how it benefits Iran.

[J.D. Vance]

They're better off than they were before the hostilities began, and that should not be the consequence of war.

[Jane Coaston]

Another Fox News host, Mark Levin, tweeted today, quote, the insanity of those defending parts of the MOU or major matters left of this MOU is truly stunning. But it's not just loudmouthed Fox News personalities slamming Trump's deal. In a tweet yesterday, Louisiana Republican Senator Bill Cassidy called it the, quote, worst foreign policy blunder in decades. And in an interview with the Hill, Texas Republican Senator Ted Cruz suggested Trump might be getting some, quote, very poor advice on this deal. Trump fired back today against, quote, fools who think he hasn't been tough enough on Iran, calling them either jealous, bad people or stupid. As someone who opposed this war and dislikes this administration, I'll say I'm having a great time. It's rare that I get to say this, but the Supreme Court today made a ruling that was both correct and hilarious. In a unanimous decision, the court found that the prosecution of a Texas man for owning a gun while also being a marijuana user, was not consistent with the Second Amendment. In Justice Neil Gorsuch's majority opinion, he wrote that the prosecution only made sense if you believed that using or possessing marijuana, a drug millions of Americans use and is legal to some degree in 40 states, gave the government the right to take away someone's Second Amendment rights. I highly recommend reading the full opinion because Gorsuch included roughly four pages on the drinking habits of the Founding Fathers. His point? Despite the fact that Thomas Jefferson drank four glasses of wine a night, no one at the time would have attempted to restrict his right to bear arms. And so it goes. According to the supreme court with a 10 gram gummy. And speaking of green, Washington, D.C. is dealing with another kind. Despite official claims to the contrary, the Lincoln Memorial's reflecting pool remains emerald colored and filled with algae. Yes, Trump promised to drain the swamp. Instead, he put one in the reflecting pool. Earlier this morning, the Department of the Interior tweeted they had solved this problem with, and I am not making this up, advanced nanobubbler technology. Yeah, your guess is as good as mine. But DC correspondent Matt Berg went to look. And still green. Guys, there you have it. Our man in D.C. on the scene. And that's the news. Let's talk about abortion. The 2022 Dobbs decision that reversed Roe v. Wade promised to return the issue of abortion back to the states. But for anti abortion activists, state level bans haven't been good enough. And more and more states have introduced Legislation that would make getting an abortion a punishable crime. In Tennessee, a state with a total abortion ban, Republican legislators tried to push through a bill that would have treated abortion like homicide, making abortion patients eligible for the death penalty under Tennessee law. And in North Carolina, a state where abortion is still legal, Republican legislators recently proposed a bill that goes even further. It's clear that anti abortion activists want to see women who get abortions imprisoned or worse. And with the number of people who have gotten abortions only increasing over the last year, that's a lot of punishment they want to mete out. Jessica Valenti writes the substack Abortion Every Day. She has been tracking abortion rights for more than a decade. We talked about why the anti abortion movement has gotten more extreme and what we can do about it. Jessica, welcome back to Water Day.

[Jessica Valenti]

Thanks for having me.

[Jane Coaston]

So North Carolina has been considering a bill that would let voters amend the state constitution to say that life starts at the moment of conception, and it would equate abortion with murder. There are a lot of layers to how bad this bill is. Can you give us a quick explainer?

[Jessica Valenti]

Sure. Yeah, there's, there's a lot going on there. It, as you said, would classify abortion as murder in the criminal code, not just for abortion providers, but for abortion patients. In every state that has an abortion ban, they generally prohibit the prosecution of abortion patients. This would allow the prosecution of abortion patients, the way that they define abortion and life would make it questionable on birth control and whether certain forms of birth control, like IUDs and the morning after pill would be considered abortions and therefore punishable with life in prison. And then there's a really interesting, is not the right word, but a really troubling section that allows for the use of deadly force in defense of a fetus, embryo, fertilized egg, meaning you could kill an abortion provider and that would be legally justified. And the language, as if that wasn't bad enough, the language is so broad that you could also make the argument that killing someone who is driving a person to an abortion clinic, who is lending them money, is being done in defense of a fetus. And so it's pretty much about as extreme as. As you can get. But I would just say, unfortunately, we're seeing a real rise in bills like this. Right. Like they're no longer anomalies.

[Jane Coaston]

Right? Yeah, I think I've seen bills like this in Tennessee and in Louisiana. What, what other states have tried to pass legislation that would make an abortion the equivalent of committing murder?

[Jessica Valenti]

I mean, pretty much every anti abortion state has has seen a bill like this. I think at last count it was over a dozen. They're called equal protection bills because the idea is that fetuses, embryos, fertilized eggs deserve the same level of protection in the state constitution as a, as a human being. And they're being pushed by this really radical group, this sect of the anti abortion movement called Abortion Abolitionists, which is just problematic for all sorts of reasons. But they are gaining power, like culturally, politically. They have a really unfortunately good political ground game. They have candidates who are running for office, they have folks who have been elected to office. And so this is again, it's not an unusual bit of legislation anymore. We're seeing it every legislative session and every legislative session these bills are getting more co sponsors.

[Jane Coaston]

We'll get back to my conversation with Jessica Valenti in a moment with more troubling ideas that unfortunately we still have to talk about. But if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads what a day is brought to you by Zebiotics let's face it, after a night with drinks, I don't bounce back the next day like I used to. I have to make a choice and I can either have a great night or a great next day. That is, until I found Pre alcohol Zebiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Every time I have pre alcohol before drinks, I notice a difference the next day. Even after a night out, I can confidently plan on working out without Worry. Go to zebiotics.com wad to learn more and get 15% off your first order. When you use Code WAD at checkout, Zebriotics is backed with a 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com wad and use the code WAD at checkout for 15% off water day is brought to you by Smalls Smalls Fresh Cat Food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free 100% human grade ingredients you'd find in your fridge and it's delivered right to your door. A balanced diet leads to less shedding, fewer hairballs and more silky shine. Smalls cat food leads to high protein and improved hydration that equals strong bones and toned muscles. Cats use protein as their main energy source. More protein means more fuel and sustained energy. After switching to smalls, 88% of cat owners reported overall health improvements. So stop serving your little carnivore a bowl of processed shortcuts for a limited time because you're a what a day listener. Get 60% off your first order plus free shipping and free treats for life when you head to smalls.com wad that's 60% off your first order plus free shipping and free treats for life when you head to smalls.com wad let's get back to my conversation with Jessica Valenti now. Realistically, this North Carolina bill will not pass. I think it's interesting because you keep having these moments. Again, interesting, not in a good way. You keep having these moments where this bill is suggested and then the legislators clearly get yelled at just enough that they're like, oh well, maybe it's not such a good idea. I think my favorite example of this was a Tennessee legislator who put this forward. His argument was, well, we don't execute that many women anyway, so it's not really that big a concern when that bill was put forward in Tennessee. But in a moment in which there are more than a dozen states with total bans, this tells me that the state of the anti abortion movement is more extreme than ever. You know, we heard for 50 years or so, oh, just send it back to the states and let states make a decision. And then the Supreme Court did that and it wasn't good enough for them.

[Jessica Valenti]

Yeah, no, they are. They are moving to the next step. This is something that I've predicted. It's something other feminists and abortion rights advocates have warned about that they are really very proactively trying to shift that Overton window and get people used to the idea that it is okay to punish abortion patients. If they can't do it with life in prison or the death penalty right away, they'll try to figure out another way to do it. There was a bill in South Carolina, I believe, that would punish abortion patients. Their compromise was to move it from life in Prison execution to a couple of years in prison, like two years in prison. And for the first time, a major national anti abortion group, Students for Life Life, endorsed that legislation. Right. So we are really seeing like the so called mainstream anti abortion movement get on board. I reported, I think it was a week or two ago, the Texas Republican Party explicitly publicly praised and posted about on their social media accounts, Abolish Abortion Texas, an abolitionist group. They have abolitionist language in the Republican Party platform. And so this is happening. Even if these bills don't get passed right now, they are certainly making moves towards that eventual end. And I think that we're moving a lot quicker than some people probably realize.

[Jane Coaston]

Something that I noted in coverage, local coverage from Tennessee and from North Carolina, is that the people who are advocating for these types of legislation are generally men. And the people you see online who are screaming at the women who kind of lead the anti abortion movement, the mainstream, it's mostly men saying, we need to punish these women. They are committing murder. You punish murderers by putting them to death. And when anti abortion activists who are women push back, there's basically this kind of like this weird, you're not going far enough. You're just, you know, a simple stupid woman. You don't understand what we need to be doing. Is that something you're seeing as well? I mean, obviously I think misogyny is the underpinning of so much of the anti abortion movement itself. But there's also a misogyny within the anti abortion movement towards people fighting abortion.

[Jessica Valenti]

Absolutely. Your read it is 100% correct. These guys are misogynist, ultra right wing Christian nationalists. Right. Like they have a very specific idea about what women's place is. These are the same guys who don't want women to vote. They are certainly not interested in listening to a female leader of an anti abortion group. I have heard stories from women who tried to join the, the abolitionist movement just to be sort of mistreated and shunned. Like they don't think women are people. And so it's not hard to imagine that they're not incredibly interested in working with women, having conversations, having political conversations with women. They think that we should be home having babies.

[Jane Coaston]

You've written that the abortion rights movement spends a lot of time responding to emergencies, kind of being like, oh, this is happening right now, we got to fight it. But it doesn't plan ahead in the way that anti abortion activists do. So if the anti abortion movement is moving towards abolition, where does the abortion rights movement need to go?

[Jessica Valenti]

Part of the Problem is that for way too long, you know, the mainstream abortion rights movement, mainstream Democratic legislators, they don't take these kinds of things seriously. They think that these are outliers. They think that these are extremists. Like nothing is ever going to happen with this. We need to start taking them really seriously. And as you said, really looking ahead 10, 20, 30 years and, and doing political work that is thinking decades ahead. I think part of that is really holding Republicans to account proactively and putting them on the record, you know, like, pass a bill that says, we will introduce a bill in your state in, in the federal government that says we are never going to punish abortion patients. Surely we can all agree on that. Democrats did something similar with codifying the right to contraception. Right. They knew it was going, but they got Republicans on the record saying that they don't want to codify the right to contraception. I think the more that we can be talking about this and holding their feet to the fire, the better. And again, taking it seriously. I understand. I think that there's always a fear of, you don't want to scare people, right? Especially when there's so much confusion and misinformation going around about abortion and what's legal and what's not. You never want to send the impression that, you know, a bill is somehow a lie. Like, there's a lot of confusion there for people in these states where they think if you make a video about one of these bills, they think, oh, my God, can I go get an abortion or am I going to be put to death by the government? So it's incredibly important that we're taking that into account. But this is an emergency, right? Like this is happening now and this is happening very quickly. They are electing these guys to office. The sooner that we can, like, really get on board and make this a central piece of the movement, the better.

[Jane Coaston]

Jessica, as always, thank you so much for joining me.

[Jessica Valenti]

Thank you for having me.

[Jane Coaston]

That was my conversation with Jessica Valenti, founder of Abortion Every Day. We'll link to her substack in the show notes before we go over on the Love it or Leave it channel. This week they're hosting a two part Pride special with a few of the most fabulous queer comedians in la. Drag Race winner Mikey Meeks, stand Up superstar Atsuko Okatsuka, and the legend himself, Bruce Vilanche. Plus many more check out Love it or Leave it every Wednesday and Friday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for today. If you like the show make sure you subscribe, leave a review, congratulate former President Barack Obama and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just about how the Barack Obama Presidential center, which features a library, park, museum, basketball court and gardens, officially open today, like me, what a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and [e-mail] subscribe I'm Jane Coston, and in a related note, CNN found today that Obama is the most popular living president and his popularity with independent voters is nearly twice as high as that of his successors. I miss him. What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. Our show is produced by Caitlin Plummer, Emily Foer, Erica Morrison and Adrienne Hill. Our team includes Haley Jones, Greg Walters, Matt Berg, Joseph Dutra, Johanna Case and Desmond Taylor. Our music is by Kyle Murdoch and Jordan Cantor. We had help today from the Associated Press. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.