When The Conspiracy Theorists Become Bureaucrats

Summary

Episode Summary: "When The Conspiracy Theorists Become Bureaucrats"

Release Date: May 29, 2025
Podcast: What A Day
Host: Jane Coaston | Produced by Crooked Media

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1. Introduction

In the episode titled "When The Conspiracy Theorists Become Bureaucrats," host Jane Coston delves into the intriguing and complex dynamics that emerge when individuals known for promoting conspiracy theories assume significant roles within the U.S. government. The discussion primarily focuses on figures from the Trump administration, examining how their ascent to power has impacted their supporter base and the broader political landscape.

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2. Conspiracy Theorists in Government

Jane begins by highlighting the presence of prominent conspiracy theorists within key governmental positions during the Trump administration:

• Kash Patel: Former Director of the FBI
• Dan Bongino: Former Deputy Director of the FBI
• Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Former Secretary of Health and Human Services

Jane points out that these individuals were not only influential within their respective roles but also avid proponents of various conspiracy theories prior to and during their tenure. For instance, Patel and Bongino both extensively discussed Jeffrey Epstein's death, casting doubt on the official account of suicide.

Notable Quote:
Jane Coston [00:02]: “I've reported on conspiracy theorists and their ideas for years...they were conspiracy theorists.”

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3. The Fan Backlash

As these figures gained power, their supporter base, which had historically championed their conspiratorial narratives, began expressing frustration. The main contention arises from the perception that these bureaucrats are not actively advancing or validating the conspiracy theories that once propelled them to prominence.

Examples Highlighted:

• Kash Patel: During an appearance on Fox News's Bret Baier, Patel was repeatedly questioned about Epstein's death, to which he expressed annoyance rather than providing new insights.

• Dan Bongino: Previously vocal about Epstein's death being suspicious, Bongino now asserts that it was a straightforward suicide, leading to backlash from his supporters.

• Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Known for spreading unfounded theories linking vaccines to autism, his role in government has involved actions contrary to the expectations of his anti-vaccine base, such as rolling back COVID-19 vaccine recommendations.

Notable Quote:
Jane Coston [02:58]: “I need to be able to sue the government, even if It's Robert Kennedy Jr. That's just how we're wired...I am a truth teller.”

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4. Interview with Will Sommer

To navigate these tensions, Jane engages in a conversation with Will Sommer, a senior writer at The Bulwark and author of the False Flag newsletter. Sommer provides an in-depth analysis of the internal divisions within the "Make America Healthy Again" (MAHA) movement and its impact on current governmental policies.

Key Points from Will Sommer:

• There's a split between traditional RFK Jr. supporters focused on broad conspiracies and those advocating for more pragmatic approaches like improving the food supply.

• Sommer observes that individuals like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. often find themselves at odds with their base when enforcing policies or acknowledging realities that contradict their earlier stances.

Notable Quote:
Will Sommer [03:58]: “The former group sees the, the, the food people as sort of a distraction...they are concerned that RFK is focusing too much on things like getting artificial dyes out of potato chips.”

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5. Tension Between Beliefs and Reality

The discussion pivots to the inherent conflict faced by bureaucrats who emerged from conspiracy-laden backgrounds. These individuals are now tasked with implementing policies and making decisions grounded in factual governance, which often contradicts the fantastical narratives they once promoted.

Examples Discussed:

• RFK Jr.: His partial endorsement of the measles vaccine during an outbreak met with severe disapproval from his anti-vaccine supporters.

• Dan Bongino: Struggles to reconcile his public statements endorsing official accounts with the expectations of his conspiracy-supporting audience.

Notable Quote:
Will Sommer [05:22]: “They have to sort the circle there on their beliefs.”

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6. The Epstein Case

A pivotal example used to illustrate the broader theme is the Jeffrey Epstein case. Figures like Kash Patel and Dan Bongino had previously fueled theories that Epstein was murdered to conceal deeper conspiracies. However, their recent declarations supporting the official account of suicide have alienated their supporters.

Impact Highlighted:

• The episode underscores how these bureaucrats' acceptance of official narratives leads to distrust and anger among their former allies, who believe that the truth is being suppressed.

Notable Quote:
Jane Coston [06:33]: “It's a railroad job... there's so much conspiracy.”

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7. Impact on Audience and Future Implications

Jane and Sommer explore the broader implications of their findings, contemplating the future of political narratives fueled by conspiracy theories. They discuss the potential emergence of new conspiracy theories as current ones fail to deliver the anticipated revelations and transformations.

Sommer's Perspective:

• The dissatisfaction among conspiracy theory adherents may lead to the creation of new, more elaborate theories to explain ongoing political and social developments.

Notable Quote:
Will Sommer [10:29]: “I think that there's gonna be new conspiracy theories.”

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8. Why This Matters Now

Jane emphasizes the importance of understanding these dynamics, especially for those who oppose conspiracy-driven politics. Recognizing the influence these figures wield within the government and the policies they enact based on flawed premises is crucial for informed civic engagement and accountability.

Notable Quote:
Will Sommer [11:23]: “These are the people who are influencing the government...we have to be aware of what these people are talking about among themselves.”

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Conclusion

The episode "When The Conspiracy Theorists Become Bureaucrats" offers a compelling examination of the intersection between conspiracy theories and formal governmental power. Through insightful dialogue and expert analysis, Jane Coston and Will Sommer shed light on the challenges and repercussions of having conspiracy-minded individuals shaping public policy, and the resulting tensions that arise when reality diverges from the fantasies that once drove their rise to power.

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Note: This summary focuses solely on the main content of the episode, excluding advertisements, intros, outros, and other non-relevant sections as per the request.

Transcript

[Jane Coston]

It's Thursday, May 29th. I'm Jane Coston, and this is what a day the show wondering what being trapped on a Delta flight from Minneapolis, Minnesota, to Madison, Wisconsin, must have been like for two pigeons. Being a bird trapped on an airplane must be profoundly confusing, is what I'm saying. On today's show, it's pardon Palooza over at the White House, and Elon Musk says President Donald Trump's big beautiful bill undermines the work he did at Doge. Sad. But let's start out by talking about conspiracy theories and the people who believe them. I've reported on conspiracy theorists and their ideas for years. And before Kash Patel, Dan Bongino and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Were prominent members of the Trump administration. As director of the FBI, deputy director of the FBI, and secretary of Health and Human Services, respectively, they were conspiracy theorists. And now the conspiracies they pushed are coming back to haunt them in the sense that their fans are very upset that now that these men are in power, they're not doing more about the conspiracies they pushed to get there. Take Patel, who was on with Fox News's Bret Baier late Wednesday. He was asked for what feels like the millionth time to explain why he believes financier and sex offender Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide despite for years raising questions about the case and why government officials weren't releasing what he called the Epstein files. Patel seemed annoyed about the whole thing.

[Maria]

But there is a lot of conspiracy theories out there. There are the Epstein thing you dealt.

[Jane Coston]

With, Maria, you said as far as you know, he killed himself. I'm telling you he killed himself. He's telling you. Bongino is facing the same problem. Before he became Patel's deputy at the FBI, he used his podcast to repeatedly push conspiracies around Epstein's death. Now he also says the disgraced financier's death is cut and dry and his supporters are apoplectic. And then there's Kennedy. You probably know about his long, long, long history of conspiracy theories around vaccines and autism. But maybe you didn't know about the time in 2023 he said COVID 19 was, quote, ethnically targeted to sicken black people but avoid Ashkenazi Jewish people. But now that Kennedy's got the top healthcare job in the United States government, it's not enough that he's rolling back COVID vaccine recommendations and investigating what he called the, quote, environmental toxins that he believes cause autism. His longtime anti vax supporters want more. Take Dell Bigtree, who served as RFK Jr. S communications director during his 2024 presidential run and is a huge anti vaccine skeptic himself. He announced this month he's stepping down as head of MAHA Action, a nonprofit that supports Kennedy's Make America Healthy Again agenda. And while bigtree didn't outwardly criticize Kennedy, here's what he said on his podcast about the decision.

[Dell Bigtree]

I need to be able to sue the government, even if It's Robert Kennedy Jr. That's just how we're wired. And I recognize Robert Kennedy Jr. And the team around him. They're in government, they are in the swamp. And they have to play chess. As we've said, the 5D chess and all of it. But I am not a chess player. I am a truth teller.

[Jane Coston]

Sure. But seriously, what happens when the most conspiracy minded people in America get what they've always wanted? It turns out they're still furious, but now they're furious at the very people they used to support, like Kash Patel, dan Bongino, and RFK Jr. Now what? So to talk about that tension, I spoke with Will Sommer. He's a senior writer at the Bulwark and he writes the False Flag newsletter about the online community that now plays a key role running the U.S. government. Will, welcome to What a day.

[Will Sommer]

Hey, thanks for having me.

[Jane Coston]

So, Will, you recently wrote about how Make America Healthy Again. Acolytes are furious at Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Why, sure.

[Will Sommer]

So there's this divide within the Maha world and it sort of breaks down on the kind of old school RFK fans who really like, kind of made him in politics. The anti vaccine people and these sort of more, you know, less politically radioactive people who say, you know, why don't we just like, clean up the food supply, have people eat more organic food, stuff like that. And the, the former group sees the, the, the food people as sort of a distraction, like they're on a wild goose chase and they're concerned that RFK is focusing too much on things like getting artificial dyes out of potato chips.

[Jane Coston]

But Kennedy is doing a lot of what the anti vaxxers want to. Um, you know, just this week he severely rolled back recommendations for Covid vaccines. He's pushing new testing requirements on future vaccines. He's only had the job for a few months. What were they expecting?

[Will Sommer]

You know, it's interesting. I mean, they're very demanding, I think it's fair to say. I mean, it is truly bizarre. I mean, these situations where he has to sort of, through gritted teeth, give a kind of half hearted endorsement of vaccines. In the case of the, there was a Texas measles outbreak after the second child there died. And he said, well, okay, the measles vaccine does stop the spread of measles and maybe people should consider getting it. And that infuriated his fans. And so this is kind of the upside down world that they're operating in.

[Jane Coston]

Something I keep thinking about is how RFK Jr. FBI Director Cash Patel, FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino, all of these people were not just the favorite voices of right leaning conspiracy theorists. Right, left leaning, if you're RFK Jr. They were conspiracy theorists themselves. So how are we seeing the expectations of their fan bases and maybe to some extent their own expectations of what they thought they'd be able to achieve working inside the government. Butt up against the reality of working in government.

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I mean, it's always interesting when you have these people who live in or sort of urge their fans to live in a sort of fantasy world whenever they run into reality. And you know, we can look at right wing media with Fox claiming the election was stolen up until the Dominion settlement, or in this case with these guys saying all this stuff about, you know, the deep state bureaucrats running the government or vaccines or what have you. And then when they get in government and actually have some amount of responsibility, they have to say, well, maybe I shouldn't promote a measles pandemic or maybe I can't really go arrest every Democrat on the street despite claiming that previously they were in a cabal. So it's this interesting bind. And I think from my perspective, that's when things really get intriguing because they have to kind of, kind of square the circle there on their beliefs.

[Jane Coston]

I think a great example is the case of Jeffrey Epstein, because I think his case is particularly telling. You have about five years of right wing pundits telling their audiences that something big is coming that will prove the financier and sex offender was murdered and also obviously put all of their enemies in prison. And now the FBI led by Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, the latter of which had multiple podcast episodes about how this has went all the way up to the top. Who did this? So much conspiracy. And now they're all like, epstein died by suicide, there's nothing more to it. What does that turnaround tell you and what have you been seeing in from their audiences reflecting on that?

[Will Sommer]

You know, it's funny you would think that from, from the audience's perspective, I mean, who could you trust to tell you the truth? About Jeffrey Epstein. Well, Cash Patel and Dan Bongino. But when these guys come out and say, and I'm going to assume what they're saying is the truth since they would know when they come out and say, you know, in Bongino's case, sort of through gritted teeth, he's very disappointed to deliver this news. The audience is furious. You know, they, for, for weeks now, you know, everything he tweets, people are saying, you know, why are you covering up for Jeffrey Epstein? And I should say Bongino tweets a lot because he's constantly trying to mollify this audience. And so just earlier this week he had to come out and say, okay, but he won't even quite say it's about Epstein, but it's clearly what he's referring to. He has to say, regarding the interview I did last week, I'm going to come out with some more documents that kind of get at what we're discussing.

[Jane Coston]

But you see this with conspiracy theories more broadly. Why can't even these messengers who for years their audience trusted on this, why are their claims not enough?

[Will Sommer]

You know, I think the audience for right wing media is just really used to getting what they want in terms of what people tell them. You know, we see this in the Fox Dominion case where after they're, they're kind of living this fantasy land and then when reality hits and Fox has to say, you know, Trump lost Arizona, the audience becomes furious. And at Fox, they know they can't tell these people the truth without losing business. Or in this case, in the case of the FBI, they realize that they're going to lose popularity, that they're going to be targeted, they're going to be, you know, flagged as, as Republicans in name only if they, you know, don't go along with these conspiracy theories.

[Jane Coston]

But unlike RFK Jr. Bongino and Patel don't seem to be throwing their conspiracy minded bases as much red meat as you might think. Like, I think that when Patel got, you know, through confirmation, there definitely was a sense to me that I was like, okay, you know, he's gonna start going after people. But in a way it's been very like he just wants to watch hockey. He hasn't even been offering the equivalent of beef tallow.

[Will Sommer]

You know, it's interesting, I, I think on one hand they seem to really enjoy running the FBI. I mean, Cash Patel is doing a lot of, you know, he goes to the Tactical Village with the, with the vest on and the gun. On the other hand, I think they are Trying to pursue sort of conservative culture war, things that are, that are going to be easier to achieve. After the backlash over their, their comments debunking the Epstein conspiracy theory, that Bongino came out and said, well, actually though, we are going to put more resources on finding out for who took cocaine into the Biden White House and who was the secret January 6th pipe bomber with the implication that, you know, that was some kind of false flag operation. So, I mean, they're kind of trying to throw some red meat to the conspiracy theorists in ways that maybe are a little more achievable.

[Jane Coston]

So something that's interesting to me is that this White House is torn between the conspiracy theories and their supporters and, I don't know, more objective reality. And I think a lot of people made the comment that watching Dan Bongino try to talk about Jeffrey Epstein was like, you know, the dog caught the car. So how do you see these tensions being exacerbated going forward? We're only four months into this administration and you already have all the conspiracy theorists who thought that this was their time. They finally achieved all of their goals and they're furious.

[Will Sommer]

You know, it's interesting. I mean, they are in many cases they're getting a lot of things they wanted, but, but I think their demands were so extreme, the idea that, you know, Hillary Clinton would be imprisoned or things like that, and that is probably not going to happen. So I think that there, you know, there's gonna be new conspiracy theories. I mean, I Look back to 2017, when the Trump administration was bogged down with the Mueller probe, and, you know, the wall wasn't getting built. And what did they come up with? They came up with QAnon. That was really when it kicked off. And it sort of presented a world that explained why the Trump base wasn't getting what they wanted. And so I wonder if we'll see that kind of like a new, a new sort of conspiracy theory to explain things.

[Jane Coston]

So for a lot of people listening, you know, the people who deeply oppose all of this, they might just want to dismiss all of these right wing conspiracy theories and just be like, that's it. But as divorced from reality as it often is. Why do you think it's so important to pay attention to this stuff right now?

[Will Sommer]

Yeah, I mean, look, these are the people who are influencing the government. I mean, I agree this sounds stuff is often totally crazy, but at the same time, you know, Laura Loomer, one of these activists, I mean, she purged the National Security Council. I mean, these people have a lot of influence and they're able to do things like get people pardoned, to sink legislation, change government policy, and often it is kind of on the basis of what's really nonsense, but it happens anyway. And so I think that's why we have to be aware of what these people are talking about among themselves.

[Jane Coston]

Will, thank you so much for joining me.

[Will Sommer]

Thanks for having me.

[Jane Coston]

That was my conversation with Will Sommer, senior writer at the Bulwark. We'll link to his newsletter in our show notes. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. What a Day is brought to you by Gab. The youth mental health crisis is all over the news and we know that social media is playing a part in driving it. Teens spend an average of 9 hours a day on screens outside of school. That's basically a full time job. Just scrolling. Here's the good A company called Gab has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech in steps. Tech in Steps works by providing a kid safe phone and watch for every age and stage. Basically the right device at the right time. So what does this look like? First off, Gab devices have no social media or Internet apps. For younger kids, they have a watch with GPS tracking and safe zones for tweens, a starter phone with more features like monitored messaging and video calling and finally for teenagers, an advanced phone with features like parent managed apps and a premium camera. Bottom line, you don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Get them Gab, which keeps them socially connected safely. Protecting your kids has never been easier. For the best deals, sign up to Gab today. No contract [e-mail] wade that's gab gabb.com wad gabb.com wad Terms and conditions apply.

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[Jane Coston]

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[Will Sommer]

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[Jane Coston]

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[Jane Coston]

Here's what else we're following today.

[Will Sommer]

Head of Lines.

[Dell Bigtree]

Will you pardon the.

[Will Sommer]

People who are accused of conspiring to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer?

[Maria]

I'm going to look at it. I will take a look at it. It's been brought to my attention.

[Jane Coston]

President Trump said once that he watched that trial and that it looked to him, quote, like somewhat of a railroad job. But taking a look at pardoning men convicted in a plot to kidnap the governor of Michigan is just part of Trump's recent pardon. Palooza. According to the Justice Department, Trump pardoned a former Virginia sheriff, Scott Howard Jenkins, on Tuesday. Jenkins was convicted last year on federal fraud and bribery charges for selling deputy badges to rich businessmen. He never served a day in jail. Also on Tuesday, Trump pardoned James Callahan, a labor union leader who pleaded guilty to failing to report gifts from an advertising firm. And on Wednesday, a White House official said Trump pardoned former Republican Representative Michael Graham of New York. He had pleaded guilty to tax fraud. Trump swiped the pardon pen for Todd and Julie Chrisley, who are best known for starring on USA Network's Chrisley Knows Best. The couple was convicted of fraud and tax evasion. Are we still sensing a pattern here? Cha Ching Cha Ching anything? Their daughter, Savannah, spoke to reporters on Wednesday outside of the Florida detention center where her father had been held. This process has been absolutely insane and I I'm just so grateful that I'm gonna leave here with my dad. Savannah, a Trump supporter, had lobbied for her parents release. And then there's the man who pleaded guilty to tax crimes and was pardoned in April. According to the New York Times, Paul Walzack was pardoned less than a month after his mom attended a fundraiser at Mar A Lago, the Times reports It was a $1 million per person fundraising dinner. If Sheriff Jenkins was a cash for badges scheme, perhaps we're witnessing a pay to pardon scheme. White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller has reportedly demanded that immigration officials arrest 3,000 people per day amid the Trump administration's immigration crackdown, Axios says. That's triple the amount of daily arrests made by ICE during the first weeks of Trump's presidency, according to an exclusive report from the outlet on Wednesday. Miller pushed the new, aggressive quota last week during a tense meeting at Immigration and Customs enforcement headquarters in D.C. the outlet said. He, quote, yelled at senior officials over their arrest and deportation numbers. Honestly, I'd be more surprised if he didn't yell. Yelling is kind of his whole thing. Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem was also at the meeting. She echoed Miller's push for more arrests. According to data from earlier this month, ICE has nearly 49,000 people in its custody. That's way more people than the agency can afford to accommodate with its current budget, sources told Axios. This wasn't the first time Miller has lost his cool with isolators. Some said they left last week's meeting worried they could lose their jobs if they don't meet their new quota. Again, shocking.

[Will Sommer]

I was like, disappointed to see the massive spending bill, frankly, which increases the budget deficit, not doesn't decrease it, and undermines the work that the Doge team is doing.

[Jane Coston]

Oh no, anything but that. Elon Musk criticized President Trump's big, beautiful bill in a clip from an upcoming interview with CBS Sunday Morning that was released on Tuesday.

[Will Sommer]

I think a bill can be big or it can be beautiful, but I.

[Jane Coston]

Don'T know if it could be both. Trump, who's been advocating for the bill, was asked for his reaction to Musk's criticism while speaking to reporters in the Oval Office Wednesday.

[Maria]

We will be negotiating that bill, and I'm not happy about certain aspects of it, but I'm thrilled by other aspects of it. That's the way they go. It's very big. It's the big, beautiful bill, but the beautiful is because of all of the.

[Jane Coston]

Things we have inspiring. According to the Congressional Budget Office, the tax provisions of the package would increase a deficit by nearly $4 trillion over a decade. Republicans pushed the bill through the House last week. It's now in the Senate. The Kremlin has proposed that Russian and Ukrainian officials meet next week for another round of direct peace talks. Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, put out a statement Wednesday suggesting that the two sides hold more talks in Istanbul. Delegations from Russia and Ukraine met there earlier this month. The two sides failed to reach a ceasefire agreement, but they agreed to prepare memorandums of their conditions for a peace deal, according to an exclusive report from Reuters. The Kremlin's wish list includes a promise that Western leaders will stop expanding NATO further east and lift some of their sanctions on Russia. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky told reporters Tuesday that Russia has assembled more than 50,000 troops near the northeastern Ukrainian region of Syria Sumi. He claimed that the Kremlin is preparing an offensive in the area to create a buffer zone. And that's the news. Before we go hello WAD listeners and viewers. What a Day will be live at the Cascade PBS Ideas festival on May 31st in downtown Seattle. That's this Saturday. I'll be interviewing former senator, comedian and Saturday Night Live writer Al Franken, and it's a conversation you are not going to want to miss. The rest of the lineup at the festival includes guests like CNN anchor Jake Tapper, former Republican Senator Jeff Flake, Washington's own Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, plus Amanda Knox, and a ton of other live podcasts like Criminal and Radiolab. If you're in the area, come see us. You can get tickets and find out [e-mail] festival that's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe. Leave a Review Think kind thoughts for Ohio Republicans who might be forced to choose between former Ohio State football coach Jim Trussell and former Doge Guy and MAGA enthusiast Vivek Ramaswamy for governor. And tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading, I'm not just about how literally the only force on earth that could make me vote for an Ohio State football coach is Vivek Ramaswamy. Like, the only one like me. What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and [e-mail] subscribe I'm Jane Coston and Sherrod Brown. Are you busy or anything? Water Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Foer. Our producer is Michelle Aloy. We had production help today from Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erika Morrison and our executive producer is Adrienne Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. East.

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