Marcy Shore (3:01)

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Jane Coston (3:03)

So we should state up front that you have work in Toronto, which makes it easier to stay, but I know it wasn't an easy choice for everyone in your family to agree to this. Can you talk about why you personally made the decision not to come back to the United States?

Marcy Shore (3:16)

It was really a very long and process decision. These offers from the Munk School had been percolating, you know, for a few years. It's very likely we would have accepted them otherwise. I had long been anxious to get my kids out of the States because of the gun violence. You know, New Haven is maybe half an hour from Sandy Hook. The massacre in Sandy Hook happened when my kids were small. It's haunted me since then. And so that's. You know, there were other reasons. I, after the November elections, felt like I definitely did not want to bring my kids back to this. My husband felt differently. You know, had he been alone, he would have gone back to fight. He's much more committed, you know, and a patriot that way.

Jane Coston (4:04)

Right. Your husband, Timothy Snyder, he's a Yale historian and author of the 2017 book on tyranny, which I know I have had so many friends, both in 2017 and right after the most recent election, giving it out to people, buying it for people to give out, as a guide to resist the Trump administration. Can you talk a little bit about those conversations that you had at home about this?

Marcy Shore (4:30)

Yes. Well, I'm a neurotic catastrophist by nature. You know, Tim is not. But my very strong impulse in November 2016 was, you know, to get out the next day. You know, I'm a historian of totalitarianism in Eastern Europe. I'm a historian of the 1930s. It's not that, you know, what will happen, but, you know, what can happen. And we really, really vacillated, you know, at that time, you know, about whether or not to leave. But that. That Wednesday after the election, I was lying on the floor of my office at Yale throwing up into a plastic bag. And I had a seminar to teach, and I thought, there's no point in going to the seminar. Nobody's going to show up. But I pulled myself off the floor, I walked across campus, I went to the class, and. And not only was everybody there, but they were there early, and they were waiting for me, and they were looking at me with these bloodshot eyes. And the first student who spoke said, professor Shore, is it going to be okay? And of course, I couldn't say yes. I knew very well it was not going to be okay. But that was the moment when I really did feel an obligation to stay, because I felt like it was important that I was there, that we were there together, that we were going to talk through this together. I don't have magical answers for the students, but we're going to help them ask questions. We're going to help them work through certain concepts. And on tyranny came out of that moment in those conversations between me and Tim, like, what can we do? What, as historians, not being prophets, but what things that are illuminated in the past can help us ask the right questions about the present?

Jane Coston (6:12)

Aside from your personal circumstances, which you've mentioned, what made 2024 different than 2016?

Marcy Shore (6:18)

I knew it was going to be worse. I mean, in part, I was worn out from all the years in between 2016. In part, I felt like the institutions of democracy had been eroded, they had broken down, that the Supreme Court had become stacked with Trump's appointees. I think the Supreme Court's ruling on immunity was particularly fatal. And so I had a sense it was going to be worse, in part because of a kind of universal historical lesson, which is the extraordinary human capacity to normalize the abnormal. The things you think you would never accept and are completely unpossible and unimaginable can become the new normal three months later, and people will not even have noticed. And we had gone a long way down that road.

Jane Coston (7:09)

You and your colleague Jason Stanley, point out that there's a lot we can learn from Russia here. In fact, there are Russian terms that can help us better understand how authoritarianism creeps in. Can you tell us about those terms, what they mean, and why you think that they're so important to understand right now?

Marcy Shore (7:23)

Yes, and one of the things I appreciated about the editors at the New York Times was that they captured how my understanding of what's happening in my own country is so profoundly inflected by my being a historian of Eastern Europe. If I panicked sooner When Trump came on the scene in fall of 2015, it is not because I was smarter than other people, but because I had been and watching what was happening in Russia. And there were a few things in particular, one of which is a very old concept which goes back at least to the tsarist empire and means literally, arbitrariness in Russian. It has an inflection of tyranny tinged with terror, the idea that the powers that be can capriciously do anything they want to you, and you're an object rather than a subject, you know, and the arbitrariness has an existential dynamic that people aren't necessarily aware of. And you see that today, where you see, like, the students getting picked up in the streets. You don't know who will be next. There's not necessarily a logic to it, you know, and it's precisely that arbitrariness that terrorizes and atomizes people because you don't know where the safe space is. That's what tyranny feeds on, you know, so Prariz Vol is, you know, is an old word, but there's a word which is actually a word coming from the avant garde in the 1910s in literary theory, and means laying bare. You just expose something, you unconceal it. You put it right out there in front of everybody's face. And this became a postmodern strategy of Putin, spin doctors, and now what's ugly, what's corrupt, what's cruel, what's sadistic is not hidden. It's right out in front of your face. And that is paradoxically disempowering, often to the opposition, because you just don't know what to do with the naked cruelty that is in front of your face.

Jane Coston (9:32)

So rarely do I have a moment in which a New York Times opinion video and, you know, I'm a New York Times contributor, to be clear, has inspired so much conversation in my household, and I'm sure in so many other households, because I think a lot of people are having this same debate. Should I stay? Should I go? What would that even mean? And I'm sure you know that there has been some pushback, because I think that there are a lot of people, and I think George Packer wrote in the Atlantic last month that he felt betrayed when he heard that you were and your husband were leaving and argued about not giving in. And I was curious to hear your thoughts on that. You know, the argument that you're violating the first rule of fighting authoritarianism, which is do not obey in advance. What were your thoughts on that, that type of argum.

Marcy Shore (10:19)

Yes. Well, first of all, my first thought when I read George Packer's article was that this was so unfair to Tim because I am the neurotic coward in the family and all accusations of cowardice and abandonment should go to me and not to him. He agreed to stay in Canada for me and for the kids and would have absolutely gone back to fight had he been alone. I was always a bit more of a rootless cosmopolitan. I had never assumed that I would spend the rest of my life in the States. But now, of course, I do have this sense because now, of course, I take that criticism very seriously. And I do feel guilty about having left and getting my kids out in a way. I would not have felt guilty if Kamala Harris had won and we would be here. To be a writer means you speak the truth and you have no right to write if you're not going to speak the truth. That's what it means. I trust myself to write and speak without compromise, but I don't trust myself to be physically courageous. I'm terrified of violence. As you know, any university is going to have a huge percentage of foreign students. That's what makes them so intellectually vibrant. I think, what would I do? I'm sitting at a coffee shop, you know, talking about somebody's senior thesis. What would I do if guys in masks came and tried to take that person away? Would I fight with them? Would I at least try to pull their mask off? Would I scream or would I cry and run away? You know, I want to think I would be brave, but I absolutely don't trust myself to be brave in that situation. And that also terrifies me.

Jane Coston (11:54)

I think that for those of us who are staying, and I think for that's most of us, especially people who have the opportunity to do so and who are American citizens, what incentive can you give us to stand up? Because people are paying attention. I think more people are speaking out. More people are recognizing that this isn't what we want. Even the people who think they voted for this are starting to say this isn't really what we said. We wanted it, but it turns out we didn't. So what do we do here? Who are staying?

Marcy Shore (12:28)

Well, first I would say resistance runs into classic collective action problems. Because any individual thinking rationally knows that to refuse to make a compromise is likely going to involve an individual risk that is greater than the social effect of their individual choice. So everyone acting rationally, individually has a self interested motive to put their head down and get in line. But of course, it's the collection of all of those individually rational decisions that make tyranny possible. The only antidote to that, to the extent there is any we've seen historically, is solidarity. You need a moment of solidarity, of overcoming the atomization, and that happened rarely. I mean, it was one of the reasons I was so absolutely captiv by the Ukrainian revolution on the Maidan and why I ended up writing this book, the Ukrainian Night, about the Maidan. This revolution I fell in love with. That was not my revolution, but a revolution I was watching because it was that moment where you get a critical mass of people crossing to the other side of fear at the same time. And that's what makes it possible. And when that happens, it happened in Poland for a moment in the early 1980s. It's fragile, it's precarious. Historically, it's never last more than a moment. But it is this infinitely precious thing that gives us this moment of illumination, that yes, we human beings are capable of that.

Jane Coston (14:03)

Professor Shore, thank you so much for your time and for joining us.

Marcy Shore (14:07)

Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a pleasure to meet you.

Jane Coston (14:10)

That was my conversation with Yale Professor Marcy Shore. We'll link to the New York Times video in our show notes. We'll get to more than is in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Mental health awareness is growing, but there's still progress to be made. 26% of Americans who participated in a recent survey say they have avoided seeking mental health support due to fear of judgment. When people hesitate to get help, it doesn't just affect them, it impacts families, workplaces and entire communities. This Mental Health Awareness month, let's encourage everyone to take care of their well being and break the stigma. The world is better when people are healthy and happy. Better Help has over 10 years of experience matching people with the right therapist from the diverse network of more than 30,000 licensed therapists with a wide range of specialties. And BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. Easily switch therapists anytime at no cost. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com wad to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelph E-L-P.com wad the Slayer has been activated. All the power of Hell Cowering before.

Marcy Shore (15:42)

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Jane Coston (16:24)

Here's what else we're following today. Head of Lines I think that Moody's is a lagging indicator. I think that's what everyone thinks of credit agencies. Treasury Secretary Scott Besant brushed off news that Moody's has downgraded the credit rating of the United States. The major credit rating firm on Friday bumped us down a notch from our coveted AAA rating, the highest possible score. Moody said its decision was driven mainly by increased interest payments on debt, rising entitlement spending and relatively low revenue generation. It also noted the government's $36 trillion debt will likely increase if Republicans renew the tax cuts promised in the party's big beautiful Bill Bessant told NBC's Meet the Press Sunday that the Moody's rating isn't a big deal. And also, this is all former President Biden's fault. We didn't get here in the past hundred days. It's the Biden administration and the spending that we have seen over the past four years. But Moody specifically said the credit downgrade reflected a decade long increase in government debt. And the last time I checked, that includes Trump's first term in office. Moody's opinion carries weight with investors. The downgrade could ultimately lead to higher borrowing costs for the United States government and consumers. Also on Sunday, Beset said U.S. tariffs on imported goods will return to reciprocal levels if countries don't make trade deals with the US during the 90 day pause. Here's a secretary on CNN's State of the Union President Trump has put them on notice that if you do not negotiate in good faith that you will ratchet back up to your April 2nd level. So much for 90 deals in 90 days. I guess the pause on Trump's tariffs is set to expire in early July, where I'm sure we'll get more excuses. Former President Joe Biden has been diagnosed with a, quote, aggressive form of prostate cancer that has spread to his bones, according to his personal office. In a statement Sunday, Biden's Office said the 82 year old was seen by doctors last week after a prostate nodule was found and was diagnosed Friday. His office did offer some hope, though. It said, quote, the cancer appears to be hormone sensitive, which allows for effective management. Biden and his family are working with physicians to figure out treatment options. The diagnosis comes amid a lot of renewed chatter about the former president's health in the lead up to the election. On Friday, Axios published audio of Biden's 2023 interview with special Counsel Robert Hur, who is investigating the president over his handling of classified documents. In the recordings, Biden makes a lot of long pauses and appears to forget important dates like when his son died or when he left the office of vice president. The recordings would seem to validate her's characterization of Biden as a well meaning elderly man with a poor memory. And tomorrow, the new book original sin by CNN's Jake Tapper and Axios Alex Thompson comes out. It promises new details about Biden's decline while in office and the ways his aides kept it from the public. The Supreme Court on Friday blocked the Trump administration from using an 18th century Wartime law to deport a group of immigrants being held in northern Texas, at least for now. The justices initially blocked the Trump administration from deporting the group of men under the Alien Enemies act last month. Friday's decision merely extends the hold while the case plays out in the lower court. In an unsigned opinion, the justices said the migrants at the center of the case were not given enough time to challenge their removals. They wrote, quote, notice roughly 24 hours before removal, devoid of information about how to exercise due process rights to contest that removal surely does not pass muster. Conservative Justices Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas dissented, which you probably already knew. Friday's ruling only applies to the migrants detained in northern Texas. But it's still a major setback for the White House, which wants to use the Alien Enemies act to quickly deport people it says belong to foreign gangs with little to no due process. Trump, as he usually does when he doesn't get what he wants, threw a tantrum about the decision on Truth Social. He wrote in one post that the justices are, quote, not allowing me to do what I was elected to do. Yes, scream more about the justices you nominated. That'll go over great. The Israeli military said Sunday its forces had started, quote, extensive ground operations across northern and southern Gaza, and Palestinian health officials said Overnight, Israeli airstrikes had killed more than 100 people in the territory, including children. But Israel also said Sunday it would start letting a, quote, basic quantity of food into Gaza. The announcement comes after Israel blocked humanitarian aid from entering the Strip for nearly three months. The blockade was meant to pressure Hamas into accepting an extension of the first phase of the January ceasefire deal. The reversal in policy comes days after global experts on food crises warn the Gaza Strip is at critical risk of famine. The office of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said a starvation crisis would put its offensive at risk. Special envoy to the Middle East Steve Witkoff told ABC News Sunday the conditions on the ground in Gaza are still dangerous. But that said, we do not want to see a humanitarian crisis and we will not allow it to occur on President Trump's watch. Hmm. President Trump noted last week we have to help out the Palestinians because a lot of people are starving in Gaza, wyckoff said Sunday. It's a very complicated situation there and conditions on the ground are dangerous. The issue now is how do we logistically get all of those trucks into Gaza? How do we set up the aid stations? There are many initiatives that we're working on to address this. There are going to be mobile kitchens that are going to be sent in there. The flour, we have trucks with flour waiting at the border. Netanyahu's office did not say when or how the aid will be distributed. And that's the news before we go. After Trump won in 2016, it was clear waiting around wasn't an option. That's why we started Crooked Media and why our friend Amanda Littman co founded Run for Something, an organization that helps young candidates run for local office and actually win. And in her new book, When we're in the Next Generation's Guide to Leadership, which is out now, Amanda shares what it looks like when a new generation steps into power, not just in politics, but in business, activism and everyday life. The book is a manual for leadership on your own terms. No fluff, no gatekeeping, no losing yourself in the process. Just real tools, honest lessons and the kind of clarity today's future leaders actually need. Get your copy of When we're in charge@crooked.com booksnow or wherever you get your books. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, pour one out and rip to Ed Smiley and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just about how Ed Smiley was the NASA scientist who led a team of engineers to create a device out of cardboard, plastic bags and duct tape to save the lives of the astronauts on Apollo 13. Like me. What a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe@crooked.com subscribe I'm Jane Coston, and to quote Smiley, if you're a Southern boy, if it moves, then it's not supposed to. You use duct tape. Wise words. Water Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Foer. Our producer is Michelle Aloy. We had production help today from Johanna Case, Joseph Dutra, Craig Walters and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our executive producer is Adrienne Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. East.

Marcy Shore (24:37)

Hataday presents. In the red corner, the undisputed, undefeated Weed Whacker Guy. Champion of hurling grass and pollen everywhere.

Jane Coston (24:48)

And in the blue corner, the challenger, Extra strength Hanaday eye drops that work.

Marcy Shore (24:55)

All day to prevent the release of.

Jane Coston (24:56)

Histamines that cause itchy allergy eyes. And the winner by knockout is Patterny Patinay. Bring it on.

Marcy Shore (25:08)

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