Lila Shroff (3:11)

Yeah, Claude code, It's like an AI chatbot, like ChatGPT or Claude, the ones many of us are more familiar with. But it's also technically an agentic coding tool, which are words that probably don't mean a ton to many of us. But it's sort of a more powerful chatbot that happens to run by generating code, but also happens to do a bunch of other cool stuff. It's like a superpowered chatbot.

Jane Coastin (3:36)

Okay, could you give me an example? You used the example in your piece of someone using the chatbot to go through all of this person's text messages and figure out how many times he said, like, lol.

Lila Shroff (3:47)

Yeah, so. So I talked to one man who wanted to create basically a Spotify wrapped for his text messages. And so using Claude, he said, hey, take, take a look at my texts and do some analysis. And it did a lot of things. One thing was it filtered for how he was saying haha vs lmao and he also, you know, had a slide of who he ghosted. But maybe a more practical example, I talked to another woman who said she's looking for a new office space for her company.

Jane Coastin (4:15)

She.

Lila Shroff (4:15)

She was communicating with a ton of different realtors. And so she had Claude code. She asked it to go through her imessages and compile a table with all the listings she's been sent or sent to someone else. And I think the thing, a lot of the time you ask ChatGPT for help and it will tell you to copy paste something or do this thing or that thing. And basically, since Claude is good at coding, it's just good at doing things on the computer.

Jane Coastin (4:39)

You installed Claude code after using it yourself. What surprised you the most about what this AI tool can do?

Lila Shroff (4:46)

This was one of those moments. There's been a few moments in my life where I've been completely astounded by a technology. I think getting in a driverless car for the first time was sort of surreal. You hear about it and you think, yeah, sounds cool. And then you try it and there's something about it that just. You feel like you were catapulted into the future a little bit. This was one of those moments. It was to me, almost more impressive than using ChatGPT for the first time. Here's an example. I have this massive data set that had been sitting on my desktop for months. This health data I wanted to write a story about and I was struggling to do good analysis on it. And I asked Claude code, hey, can you take a look at this data and answer these questions? It produced results. The question now for me is how valid were those results? And that is what's interesting here, is a lot of the times you can ask it to do more powerful stuff, but if you don't know how to build an app and it builds you an app, you have the app. But does the app actually function with good cybersecurity practices? That's harder to tell now, given all.

Jane Coastin (5:44)

Of the questions I'm asking you. You can tell I have not used Claude code. And you wrote that the app's popularity skyrocketed in December and everyone in tech was using cloud code. But why do you think it hasn't popped off for the general public? What are the barriers to entry?

Lila Shroff (5:58)

So for one, it costs money. This isn't like chatgpt where you can sign up for free. It's more than your average streaming subscription. So you need to be excited enough to feel like there's real utility there for you, maybe going into it. And then until now, until pretty recently, it's been accessible through the computer terminal, which isn't that scary to use. But if you've never taken a coding class, it looks a little bit like crazy hacker in a movie. But they actually just released a new product that's not as scary looking for non technical users, and I think anthropic. When I talked to people that work there, they said they were surprised because they did build this as a coding tool. They built it for developers and so seeing it all of a sudden pop off among all these non technical people, they themselves were kind of surprised to see that.

Jane Coastin (6:43)

You talk about how cloud code could turn out to be an inflection point for AI progress, especially towards artificial general intelligence or AGI, because there are early signs of what's called recursive self improvement. First of all, what's recursive self improvement?

Lila Shroff (6:57)

Basically, the idea is at some point we're going to get to possibly AI systems that can start making themselves better. One of my co workers, Matteo Wong, has put this pretty nicely. If the GPT5 model starts improving, the GPT6 model which improves the GPT7 and on and on and on. You get this takeoff of kind of rapid improvement. This is somewhat theoretical and so we can reason about whether it's a legitimate theory of how AI progress will continue. But the Anthropic employee who created Claude code said they're starting to see Claude come up with ideas of what to build next. And so for him it was kind of early sparks of this.

Jane Coastin (7:39)

Now if you could see what my face is doing. I just made the face that you said, Claude is coming up with ideas. And I've seen Terminator 2 Judgment Day. So I am very anxious about this. And I think that if anyone's been paying attention to people being concerned about AGI, there's either been like, AGI is going to save us all or AGI is going to kill us all because it's going to become a God and everybody loses their minds. So based on what you've seen, how worried about AI spinning out of control, given that you just said that someone at Anthropic is seeing Claude come up with ideas, humans come up with ideas, AI coming up with ideas is new and very scary. So how worried should we actually be? What are experts saying about this?

Lila Shroff (8:22)

You know, I'll start by just saying I haven't seen whatever is going on inside of Anthropic, so I can't say what exactly they're seeing and whether it is actually AI coming up with novel ideas or just doing a good job of recreating already existing human ideas. Even if this is actually what's going on, I think that I'm not polarized to the abundance crazy AI future or the extreme we all need to go hide out. I think the biggest questions I have are around employment and automation. I think this is the first time I've started to think, wow, I can really see how there's a lot of work that we do on a day to day basis that could be pretty radically transformed and perhaps automated with the technology. That sense is becoming more clear. And so how this plays out on the jobs front is the biggest question in my mind.

Jane Coastin (9:15)

You report that Anthropic, the maker of cloud code, discovered Chinese state sponsored hackers were using the tool for cyber espionage. Can you tell us more about that?

Lila Shroff (9:24)

Yeah, I mean, if me, who has a very limited programming experience using cloud code, can all of a sudden be a much better programmer, people with nefarious or ill intent can also be kind of leveled up. It's, you know, we all kind of get a boost, the good guys and maybe the people with a little bit less worse intentions. And so I think that kind of creates an arms race effect on the cybersecurity front where you get more powerful ways of tracking down bad actors, but then you also get bad actors doing crazier things. And so there's a lot of open questions I think there. And cybersecurity in particular is an area I also have some concerns about.

Jane Coastin (10:04)

Yeah, I think that the concerns for me, I mean we've seen this with other AI tools like Grok, where it's creating through users, but you know, the users wouldn't have the ability to do this without groking child sexual abuse material and non consensual sexual content. What does that tell us about the risks of AI? I think you just said something really smart, which is that like if you know the white hats are going to use it to do even better white hat things and the bad people are going to use it to do even worse things, what does that mean for the challenge of regulating these technologies?

Lila Shroff (10:34)

That's a big question. I think, you know, there is a degree to which this is all happening really fast. The sorts of questions that get introduced by a much more powerful tool like Claude Code. You know, I think this kind of makes me think across the board, you know, in education, how do you want students learning to use these tools? There's been a lot of talk about whether we should have this streamlined national AI policy or what states figure things out. I think there's just a ton of confusion and lack of direction as to how we handle this. And so I think hopefully this is a moment that sort of prompts people to start putting their heads together and thinking more seriously.

Jane Coastin (11:15)

Lila, thank you so much for coming back to the show.

Lila Shroff (11:18)

Thanks for having me.

Jane Coastin (11:20)

That was my conversation with Lila Shroff, Assistant Editor at the Atlantic. We'll link to her piece in the show Notes. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ads. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our snack, hydration and coffee sponsor. IQ Bar Protein Bars, IQ Mix Hydration Mixes and IQ Joe Mushroom Coffees are the delicious low sugar brain and body fuel you need to win your day. All IQ Bar products are clean, label, certified and entirely free from gluten free dairy, soy, GMOs and artificial ingredients. And all IQ Bar products are packed with clean, delicious ingredients to keep you physically and mentally fit like magnesium, lion's mane and more. The New Year gives us all a chance to reset, maximize your brain and body's potential with IQ Bars, protein bars, hydration mixes, and mushroom coffees. Their Ultimate Sampler Pack includes all three. I have a lot of goals I want to achieve this year. An IQ Bar is helping me hit my macros and make sure I'm ready for big races and big PRs. And right now, IQBar is offering our special podcast listeners 20% off all IQ Bar products, including the ultimate sampler pack, plus free shipping. To get your 20% off, text WAD to 64,000. Text WAD to 64,000. That's WAD to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See Terms for details. What a day is brought to you by Acorns so many people are focused on where their money is going today. Acorns is a financial wellness app that cares about where your money is going tomorrow. And with the Acorns Potential screen, you can find out what your money is capable of. Acorns is easy. You can sign up in minutes and start automatically investing your spare money even if all you've got is spare change. Acorns grows with you. Whether you're just starting out or thinking about settling down, Acorns supports your big and small goals across every life stage. The Acorns Potential Screen shows you the power of compounding and how your money could grow over time. Plus, you can quickly adjust how much you're investing every day, week or month to make sure you're building towards your goals. And Acorns is all in one. No more finance apps cluttering your phone with Acorns. You can invest, save and give your money a chance to grow in one trusted place. Sign up now and Acorns will boost your new account with a $5 bonus. Investment join the over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $27 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com wad or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to Positively promote Acorns Tier 2 compensation provided potential subject to various factors such as customers accounts, age and investment settings does not include Acorns fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance of any Acorns portfolio. Investment results will vary. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor View important disclosures@acorns.com wad.

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Jane Coastin (15:01)

Here's what else we're following today.

Lila Shroff (15:03)

Head of Lines.

News Reporter (15:07)

The meeting we had last week left me with a clear impression that the president honestly and full heartedly want to acquire Greenland. But we also made it crystal clear that this is a red line.

Jane Coastin (15:24)

The Danish foreign minister spoke with reporters Monday, reiterating the quagmire that is Trump versus Greenland. And if he was looking for optimism today, he didn't find any. That's because Trump's petty little fingers were aflutter this weekend. Texting the prime Minister of Norway in the texts acquired by PBS Monday, Trump said in part, considering your country decided not to give me the Nobel Peace Prize for having stopped eight wars plus, I no longer feel an obligation to think purely of peace. He's like a six year old who didn't get the trophy, quits the soccer team and tries to take the ball home. In a statement about the exchange, the Norwegian prime minister said, quote, I have on several occasions clearly explained to Trump what is well known, namely that it is an independent Nobel committee and not the Norwegian government that awards the prize. So it's like a six year old stole the trophy from an entirely different soccer league. Also, he's in charge of the military for some reason. The message comes on the heels of Trump threatening new tariffs on the European nations backing Denmark and Greenland. The EU will weigh a potential response at an emergency summit in Brussels on Thursday. The Supreme Court is set to hear arguments on Wednesday in a case involving President Trump's attempt to fire Federal Reserve Board governor Lisa Cook. Last year, Trump tried to fire Cook, citing accusations of mortgage fraud. Cook has denied the allegation and no charges have been made against her. She sued to keep her job, and the Supreme Court issued a brief order allowing her to stay on the board while it considers the case. So here we are. According to sources, Fed Chair Jerome Powell plans to attend the session, a show of support by the central bank chair. It's unusual, but the Fed has really been going through it lately. Just last week, Powell revealed that the Department of Justice subpoenaed the Fed and threatened a criminal indictment related to his congressional testimony over the cost of a renovation of Fed buildings.

News Reporter (17:14)

I always say tariffs is the most beautiful word to me in the dictionary. Then I was reprimanded by the fake news. They said, what about love, religion, and God? I said, I agree. Let's put God number one. Let's put religion number two. Love. I don't know. We got to put that number three, I guess, right? And then it's tariff, because tariffs are going to make us rich as hell. It's going to bring our countries.

Jane Coastin (17:44)

That was President Trump exactly a year ago today, professing his undying love for tariffs, and he hasn't stopped since. But have tariffs made us all rich as hell, as the president promised? It seems unlikely. In fact, new research published by the Keel Institute for the World Economy found Americans are actually footing the bill for the country's tariffs. Researchers at the German think tank analyzed more than 25 million shipment records spanning a total value of almost $4 trillion in U.S. imports. From that, they found that foreign exporters took on about 4% of the tariff burden, leaving 96% to be passed to US buyers. The researchers found that ultimately, tariffs are bad for everyone. US Companies will be confronted with shrinking margins and consumers will face higher prices in the long run. The report concluded. The claim that foreign countries pay these tariffs is a myth. The tariffs are, in the most literal sense, an own goal. Reading us for filth. As of today, January 20th, we are officially one year into President Trump's second term. And just in case our previous headlines didn't make it clear, things aren't going great. That's why this afternoon at 2:00pm local time, Americans in all 50 states are expected to walk out of their jobs, schools and businesses to protest the country's, quote, escalating fascist threat. The call to action comes from the same group behind the monumental women's March during Trump's first term. They're calling it the Free America Walkout. According to the website, a Free America begins the moment we refuse to cooperate. This is not a request. This is a rupture. This is a protest and a promise in the face of fascism, we will be ungovernable. So no matter what's on your agenda today, we hope you celebrate this year's trumpaversary like a true American, whether it's exercising your freedom of speech, right to assemble, or liberty to demand better from your government. Because that's what this country was built on, not tariffs or Greenland or demanding talk show hosts be fired for not being nice enough to the President of the United States. Actually, we don't have to be nice to the President of the United States at all, because this is America, and that's the news. One more thing. Immigration and Customs Enforcement is very busy in Minneapolis right now, as you may know, breaking car windows, hospitalizing children with flashbangs, screaming obscenities. They've got lots to do. But something else they've been doing is arresting Native Americans. Yes, Native Americans. Last week, members of the Oglala Sioux tribe in Minneapolis sounded the alarm after multiple members of the tribe were allegedly detained by ice, taken away with no details as to where they are or when they'll be released. The Twin Cities is home to at least 50,000American Indians, and they are being targeted by ICE with allegations of harassment and abuse. And American Indians from across the country, from Utah to Arizona to Washington State, are reporting the same thing. Despite literally being Indigenous Americans, ICE is going after them. Here's Native American actress Elaine Miles on CNN talking about an incident in December in which she was told that her ID looked, quote, fake by ICE agents in Redmond, Washington.

News Reporter (21:02)

And I kept telling them that it was from a federally recognized tribe in eastern Oregon and it's a federal id and only enrolled members can get those because they kept saying anybody could make them.

Jane Coastin (21:19)

Now, you might be wondering, why in the hell would Indigenous Americans, literally the most American of Americans, be targeted by ice? The answers, as far as I can tell, are racism and government overreach. Last September, the Supreme Court found that, quote, apparent race or ethnicity could be used as a relevant factor that would allow ICE to detain someone. These stops, now called Kavanaugh stops for justice, Brett Kavanaugh, are now being used against Indigenous Americans because, to put it bluntly, ICE thinks they look foreign. But you heard Elaine Miles mention her tribal id, which is a real form of identification and can be used as proof of citizenship. There are 574 federally recognized American Indian and Alaska Native tribes in the United States. Those tribes receive specific rights and protections, including some powers of self government and limited sovereignty. And that gets to the government overreach part. See, because of treaties made between the government and American Indian tribes, ICE doesn't have the same powers on Indian land it has elsewhere. But as you might guess, it would really, really like those powers. Specifically, ICE wants American Indian tribes to sign 287 agreements which would create a relationship between the federal government and Indian tribes to enforce immigration laws. And according to the president of the Oglala Sioux tribe, Frank Star comes out, federal officials said that they wouldn't give up information about the people they detained until the tribe signed a 287 agreement. But Frank Star comes out said no. In a letter to multiple Trump administration officials, he wrote, quote, we will not enter an agreement that would authorize or make it easier for ICE or Homeland Security to come onto our tribal homeland to arrest or detain our tribal members. In an interview with the Washington Post, Minnesota State Representative Leish Kozlowski, who is of Anishinaabwe Ojibwe descent, said that the Trump White House wants to crush dissenters. But they said the thing is, they've never been able to crush our spirits ever. Before we go Crooked Media's newest book, Hated by All the Right People, Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of the Conservative Mind, is releasing next week on January 27th. It's by one of our favorite political journalists, New York Times Magazine writer Jason Zengerly. In Hated by All the Right People, Jason Zengerly gives a fascinating, informative look at Tucker's political evolution and how his rise traces the rise of the MAGA movement. Tommy just interviewed Jason on today's Podcast of America episode, so make sure to check that out. This is your last week to pre order the book to get a discount, head to crooked.combooks to get your copy and check out Jason's book signing tour dates. That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, don't bet on sports and tell your friends to listen. And if you're into reading and not just about how we are in the midst of the NFL playoffs and the NBA is in full swing and we just watched the college football national championship and I just want to remind you that betting on sports is a terrible idea. Like me, what a Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe@cricket.com subscribe I'm Jayden Coston and most Americans think sports betting is ruining the integrity of sports. So just say no to betting real American currency on sports or politics or pretty much anything. What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Emily Foer and Chris Allport. Our producer is Kaitlin Plummer. Our video editor is Joseph Tutra. Our video producer is Johanna Case. We had production help today from Ethan Oberman, Greg Walters and Matt Burke. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our senior vice president of news and politics is Adrian Hill. Our theme music is by Kyle Murdoch and Jordan Kantor. We had help today from the Associated Press. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

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Anthropic Ad Voice (25:56)

The start of a new year is a natural moment to set new goals and shake up old habits, but doing so can also feel a little daunting. If you've ever reached the end of January feeling a bit cynical or discouraged about the hopes and resolutions that had seemed achievable just a few weeks earlier, the Hidden Brain Podcast is here to help all. This month we'll bring you the latest installment of our popular your 2.0 series. The focus will be on the self doubt and anxiety that many of us grapple with when charting a new path. Whether you're struggling with self criticism, a lack of patience, or finding the courage to make a big change, we've got your back. That's U 2.0 from Hidden Brain all through the month of January. Join us.