Will Trump Abandon Ukraine?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What a Day" Episode – Will Trump Abandon Ukraine?

Podcast Information:

• Title: What A Day
• Host/Author: Crooked Media
• Episode: Will Trump Abandon Ukraine?
• Release Date: April 24, 2025

Overview: In this episode of What a Day, hosted by Josie Duffy Rice in place of Jane Coaston, the focus centers on the Trump administration's controversial approach to resolving the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine. The discussion delves into the administration's proposed peace deal, the implications for Ukraine, and the broader geopolitical ramifications, featuring an in-depth conversation with Matt Duss, Executive Vice President of the Center for International Policy.

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1. Trump Administration's Ukraine Peace Proposal

Josie Duffy Rice introduces the topic by highlighting Vice President J.D. Vance's recent statements urging Russia and Ukraine to accept a U.S.-crafted peace proposal or face the U.S. withdrawing from negotiations entirely.

• Vance's Statement ([01:09]):

  "We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's time for them to either say yes or for the United States to walk away from this process."

Duffy Rice critiques the viability of the proposal, questioning its fairness and practicality given the opposing objectives of Ukraine and Russia.

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2. President Trump's Objectives and Alignment with Russian Goals

President Donald Trump's remarks underscore a desire to conclude the war swiftly, albeit at the expense of Ukraine's territorial claims.

• Trump's Statement ([02:24]):

  "I just want to see the war end. I don't care if they're both happy. They both sign an agreement. I have no favorites."

Duffy Rice points out the inherent bias in the proposal, noting that it appears to favor Russian interests by potentially ceding Ukrainian territory and mandating Ukraine to refrain from joining NATO.

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3. Ukraine's Response and Zelensky's Stance

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky firmly rejects the terms of the proposal, specifically the banning of NATO membership and the cession of Crimea to Russia.

• Zelensky's Position ([02:39]): Zelensky stated that Ukraine "will not agree to a ban on joining NATO, nor agree to cede Crimea to Russia, calling it a constitutional violation."

This steadfast stance highlights the irreconcilable objectives between Ukraine and Russia, casting doubt on the feasibility of the proposed deal.

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4. Expert Analysis with Matt Duss

To unpack the complexities of the proposed deal, host Duffy Rice converses with Matt Duss, who provides a critical perspective on the administration's strategy.

Discussion Points:

• One-Sided Nature of the Proposal ([03:57]):

  "This is a deal that seems to give Russia an awful lot and Ukraine relatively little."

Duss emphasizes that the proposal lacks concrete concessions from Russia, instead focusing on significant demands from Ukraine that compromise its territorial integrity and sovereignty.

• Russia's Limited Sacrifices ([04:33]): Duss notes, "there is nothing that Russia has to give up in this deal," underscoring the imbalance inherent in the proposal.

• Long-Term Implications and Putin's Objectives ([05:04] - [05:46]): Duss raises concerns about Russian President Vladimir Putin's enduring ambitions, questioning whether the peace could merely be temporary and if Putin might reignite the conflict in the future.

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5. Democratic Perspective and Recommendations

Duss outlines the Democratic approach to countering the administration's stance, advocating for the upholding of international law and supporting Ukraine's sovereignty.

• Upholding International Law ([09:57]):

  "The right of countries not to be invaded by their more powerful neighbors and have chunks of their land stolen is a pretty foundational concept in international law."

He criticizes the previous Democratic administration's handling of international issues, emphasizing the need for Democrats to reaffirm their commitment to global rules and support for nations like Ukraine.

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6. Ukraine's Options and the Role of European Support

Facing the Trump administration's ultimatum, Ukraine's reliance on U.S. aid becomes a critical vulnerability. Duss discusses potential paths forward for Ukraine and the importance of European allies stepping up their support.

• European Involvement ([11:21]):

  "I think what could help the Ukrainians is for the Europeans to really step up."

He warns that a U.S. withdrawal from negotiations could leave Ukraine without crucial support, potentially allowing Russia to achieve its broader objectives of undermining Ukraine's independence.

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7. Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reflection on the Trump administration's approach to the Ukraine conflict, highlighting the potential risks of prioritizing expedient peace over equitable and sustainable solutions. The discussion underscores the necessity for balanced diplomacy and robust international support to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty and regional stability.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• J.D. Vance ([01:09]):

  "We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's time for them to either say yes or for the United States to walk away from this process."

• Donald Trump ([02:24]):

  "I just want to see the war end. I don't care if they're both happy. They both sign an agreement. I have no favorites."

• Matt Duss ([03:57]):

  "This is a deal that seems to give Russia an awful lot and Ukraine relatively little."

• Matt Duss ([09:57]):

  "The right of countries not to be invaded by their more powerful neighbors and have chunks of their land stolen is a pretty foundational concept in international law."

---

Final Thoughts: This episode of What a Day offers a comprehensive analysis of the Trump administration's contentious strategy regarding the Ukraine conflict. Through insightful discussion and expert testimony, the podcast illuminates the complexities and potential consequences of the proposed peace deal, stressing the importance of equitable diplomacy and international solidarity in resolving such enduring conflicts.

Transcript

[Unknown Speaker]

Foreign.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

I'm Josie Duffy Rice in for Jane Coaston. And this is what a day. The show wondering if makeup studio is code for open bar. Diva of Defense Pete Hegseth reportedly ordered officials to spend thousands to give the Pentagon's green room a glow up by adding a makeup studio. I'm no mathematician, but I don't think a director's chair, a mirror and a makeup light cost cost several thousands of dollars. On today's show, the Trump administration steps closer to admitting a trade war with China may not be in our best interest. And the Department of Veterans affairs is tackling all that anti Christian bias that we are always hearing about. But let's start with Russia's war in Ukraine. On Wednesday, Vice President J.D. vance encouraged the two countries to agree to a peace proposal and said that the U.S. would, quote, walk away from their role in negotiations if the two countries refused to accept America's terms. He spoke to reporters from India where he's on a diplomatic trip.

[J.D. Vance]

We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's time for them to either say yes or for the United States to walk away from this process. We have engaged in an extraordinary amount of diplomacy of on the ground work. We've really tried to understand things from the perspective of both the Ukrainians and the Russians. What do Ukrainians care the most about? What do the Russians care the most about?

[Josie Duffy Rice]

I feel like the Ukrainians care the most about not being taken over by Russia. And what Russia cares most about is taking over Ukraine. And that feels a little unreconcilable to me. It feels like pretty mutually exclusive objectives. And it feels like maybe the White House also knows this because while Vance says that they're ostensibly talking to both countries, the real target seemed to be Ukraine. According to the New York Times, the Trump administration's proposal, quote, closely aligns with long standing Russian goals. It includes a freeze of the war's current boundaries, requiring Ukraine to basically give up 20% of the country's territory. It also requires Ukraine to have to accept Russia's annexation of Crimea and agree to not join NATO. Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office Thursday evening, President Donald Trump made his own objectives for the deal clear.

[Donald Trump]

Well, everything is good. Look, I just want to see the war end. I don't care if they're both happy. They both sign an agreement. I have no favorites. I don't want to have any favorites. I want to have a deal done. I want to save their lives.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

But it's pretty clear that Trump does have a favorite because the proposal, or more accurately, threat, puts Ukraine in a particularly tough position, a position Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky seems unwilling to accept. Just hours before Vance's comments, Zelensky said Ukraine will not agree to a ban on joining NATO, nor agree to cede Crimea to Russia, calling it a constitutional violation. So to better understand why the Trump administration wants to strong arm Ukraine over Russia and what it says about Trump's views on power, I spoke with Matt Duss. He's the executive Vice President of the center for International Policy, a progressive think tank. He's also the former foreign policy advisor to Vermont independent Senator Bernie Sanders. Matt, welcome to what a day.

[Matt Duss]

Thank you. Very glad to be here.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

So let's start with the parameters of the deal that was supposed to be negotiated on Wednesday. The U.S. wants to basically freeze the battle lines that exist today, which would cede a huge swath of eastern Ukraine to Russian control. It wants Ukraine to recognize the Crimean Peninsula, which Russia illegally annexed in 2014, as Russian territor. And it wants Ukraine to give up its goal of joining NATO. And in exchange, Ukraine would get some security assurances and some help rebuilding. So what's your take on this deal?

[Matt Duss]

I mean, listen, let's just first say, like, I think everyone, no one more than the Ukrainians wants this war to end. But in general, this is a deal that seems to give Russia an awful lot and Ukraine relatively little. I mean, you say security assurances. There are, as I've seen the agreement, there are no hard security guarantees. Obviously, the agreement not to join NATO. And let's say I don't think anyone seriously thought, you know, Ukraine was ever going to join NATO, but there are some security guarantees short of NATO membership. I think that could make this a better situation and make it a better agreement for Ukraine to agree to.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

Yeah, it's not exactly clear to me what Russia has to give up in this deal.

[Matt Duss]

Right.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

Is there something I'm missing there? What do they actually have to sacrifice?

[Matt Duss]

No, you're not. I mean, what Trump has said in his statement, I think on Truth, Social, whatever was, I mean, and others in the administration have talked about swaps of land. It's like, what is Russia swapping? I think it's, this is a one sided swap, is that Ukraine is giving up portions, you know, of, you know, basically the, the eastern third of its country, including Crimea.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

Right.

[Matt Duss]

In exchange for an end to the war for now. And again, that is a good thing. But I think the key, the key thing to keep in mind here Is, you know, Putin, as far as I've seen, has not given up on his ultimate goal. What I think people understand as his ultimate goal, because he had described it as such, of ending Ukraine's independence. His vision of a kind of Russian imperium or the new Russia or Russia's historic entitlement includes Ukraine as part of that territory. And he's. He's not given any evidence that he has changed that view. So the question would be, what is stopping Putin from simply restarting the war in the future?

[Josie Duffy Rice]

Zelensky insists that Ukraine will never recognize Crimea as part of Russia. He said that mere hours before this statement by Vance came down. Is that a little fantastical at this point? Like, realistically, what are Ukraine's chances of reclaiming that territory, do you think?

[Matt Duss]

Right. I think that's a great question. I think the chances are very slim. But, you know, it's not unheard of to kind of have some kind of vague language in an agreement to end the war where Ukraine does not officially recognize, you know, Russia's sovereignty over Crimea, but, you know, commits not to trying to retake it, or, you know, there's some wiggle room there. But as of right now, Trump and others in his administration really just seem to be putting the screws to Zelensky and the Ukrainians to accept a peace that could very well be temporary.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

Yeah, to that point, you know, from a diplomatic stance, Trump promised he was going to kind of immediately end this war during the campaign. Really, anybody who's been kind of even casually following the war knew that that was not going to be an easy task. But now what Vance is threatening is basically that the US Will just walk away from talks entirely if Russia and Ukraine don't agree to those terms. And obviously, those terms are harder to swallow for Ukraine than for Russia. And we're only three months into the term. So what do you make of this? Like, what does this say about the Trump administration, and what do you think that this says about the kind of role of the US in the future here in this war?

[Matt Duss]

Well, first, yes. I mean, Trump during the campaign and previously has said, you know, it'll be very easy to make peace. I can do it in a day. It turns out it's a bit more difficult than that. You know, we obviously had the kind of, you know, what we've seen over the past few weeks, especially the notorious Oval Office meeting with Zelensky where, you know, Vance and then Trump both kind of went after Zelensky to say, you basically need to do what we Say, because you don't have any cards. I think Zelensky, in the wake of that meeting, very wisely showed that he is interested in peace. He is ready to negotiate a real peace. He's been engaged in the kind of. In the talks like, for instance, that have been going on in London with the United States, U.K. france, and Germany. It is the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, who decided not to attend those talks. The concern that Ukrainians have had, and this was something that was actually shared by the Biden administration, is that Putin wants this to be something that is negotiated between Russia and the United States. He believes that Russia is a great power and the United States is a great power, and it is the job of great powers, the right and the entitlement of great powers, to simply determine the future of less powerful countries. And unfortunately, it seems that Donald Trump also shares this view. But I think that not only is that, I think, unethical and unjust, it will not lead to more stability. It will lead potentially to more war.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

Yeah, it's interesting you say that, because we saw Trump lash out at Zelensky on Truth Social on Wednesday, saying he was prolonging the, quote, killing field. How do you sort of see Trump's repeated insults against Zelensky and apparently, you know, favoring of Putin in these negotiations as kind of part of this broader worldview? I mean, you mentioned earlier that this comes down to just sheer power, basically. And that is sort of how he's been playing this.

[Matt Duss]

Right? I mean, it is very notable that he has been telling a story about this war that is a lie. He has said that, you know, the Ukrainians started this war. Zelensky started this war. It is Russia that started this war. Now, I think it is possible to have a real discussion about Russia's own, you know, legitimate security concerns, Putin's own, you know, concerns about Russia's security and, and the arrangement of Europe without, you know, acquiescing to Putin's version of events.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

So you're an advisor, a former adviser of Senator Bernie Sanders on foreign policy. He's an independent, but votes with Democrats. So what do you think that Democrats can do to counter this perspective, this worldview, more in this particular situation, but also more broadly, because this does sort of seem to be the operating ideology of the administration.

[Matt Duss]

Yeah, well, I think what Democrats can do is to just uphold international law. I mean, the right of countries not to be invaded by their more powerful neighbors and have chunks of their land stolen is a pretty foundational concept in international law. And I think if we want to live in a world of rules instead of a world where might makes right, I think it is important to continue to press that point. I mean, unfortunately, I mean, we have a situation where the previous Democratic administration did not uphold those rules, did not uphold international law when it came to the Palestinians in Gaza. So I do think Democrats need to do a bit of self criticism here and acknowledge that the previous Democratic administration really failed in this respect. But as we kind of look forward and try to articulate a vision of America's role in the world, a more peaceful, stable world where people live with dignity and real security, I think upholding these rules for all, for friends and foes alike, is really the way to go.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

So Ukraine is in a pretty tough spot right now. It is reliant on US Aid to keep up this war. It is in this existential standoff with Putin. And now Vance is saying, and the administration is saying take it or leave it. You know, if you don't take this, we're out. Right. So what do you think that Ukraine's going to do? What kind of options do they really have here?

[Matt Duss]

I mean, you're right, they're in a very tough spot. I think what could help the Ukrainians is for the Europeans to really step up. As we've seen some of them doing not enough. And it's been very slow, but I think it has. It is starting to dawn on our European partners that they really are going to need to do more. The question is whether they can do more quick enough, whether they can provide enough aid quick enough should the United States decide to walk away. And we should all understand what walk away means, it's to just kind of step back and let Russia continue to roll over Ukraine and achieve Putin's ultimate goal, which is to end Ukraine as an independent country.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

Matt, thank you so much for joining us.

[Matt Duss]

Very glad to be here. Thank you.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

That was my conversation with Matt Duss, Executive Vice President at the center for International Policy and former Foreign policy advisor to Senator Sanders. We will get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts. Watch us on YouTube and share with your friends. More to come after some ad.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Pam Bondi]

Amazon has everything for every kind of birthday, whether that's a three tier cake stand, Happy Birthday, Comet balloons for your son's space themed party or gifts. Like a karaoke machine for that friend who never stops singing Happy Birthday to you. From cake stands to karaoke machines, shop everything for every party on Amazon.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Josie Duffy Rice]

Here's what else we're following today.

[Pam Bondi]

Head of Lines.

[Dick Durbin]

I've given over half of my life to House and Senate Congressional service. I've always tried to stand up to power on behalf of the people of Illinois and our country.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

The number two Democrat in the Senate is retiring. Illinois's Dick Durbin announced on Wednesday he plans to step down at the end of his term next year. And he's not exaggerating when he says he spent more than half of his life in Washington. The 80 year old has been in Congress for over four decades, mainly in the Senate and no shade of the senator, but that is longer than almost anyone who works on this show has been alive. Durbin posted a video about his decision to step down on social media.

[Dick Durbin]

It's time to pass the torch and although I won't seek reelection, I'll continue to fight every single day for the Illinoisans who gave a kid from East St. Louis a chance to serve.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

The music choice on that clip is very 80 year old. He even got a shout out from former President Barack Obama.

[Dick Durbin]

Illinois couldn't have asked for a better representative. I couldn't have had a better friend on this amazing journey we've been on together.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

Durbin's decision to step down follows the anemic fundraising numbers he posted last week, a little more than $40,000 in the first few months of the year. At that point, the writing was pretty much on the proverbial wall. And while Illinois remains a solidly blue state, Durbin's seat is yet another that Democrats will have to defend in the midterms. On top of keeping the seats also being vacated by Democrats in New Hampshire and Michigan, they'll need to defend incumbents in swing states like Georgia and Virginia, not to mention ousting a few Republicans in the process if they actually want to win a majority. A federal judge on Tuesday ordered the White House to submit more information about the deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Maryland man who was wrongly sent to a prison in El Salvador last month. While the White House has admitted that Abrego Garcia was deported due to a so called administrative error, officials have not indicated any plans to comply with the Supreme Court's order to, quote, facilitate his release from the El Salvador prison. Last week, U.S. district Judge Paula Zinnis ordered Trump officials to answer questions about what they are doing to free him, if they're doing anything at all. The Department of Justice responded in a legal filing on Tuesday saying that the White House has engaged in, quote, appropriate diplomatic discussions with Salvadoran officials, but they did not elaborate any further. As you've probably heard, Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen traveled to El Salvador and met with Abrego Garcia last week. This week, a group of House Democrats, including Representatives Maxwell Frost, Robert Garcia, Maxine Dexter, and Yassamine Ansari, also traveled to the Central American country. Representative Ansari spoke to Wedaday's Matt Berg about their visit. She said lawmakers met with the country's US Ambassador to share their concerns about Abrego Garcia's detention, but the Salvadoran government rejected their request to see him.

[Yassamine Ansari]

We had really hoped to meet with him because although Senator Van Holland had confirmed proof of life, the lawyer made very clear that this is something that we need regularly to ensure that he is safe and healthy, ansari said.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

The trip to El Salvador sends an important message to the White House.

[Yassamine Ansari]

I think that this administration wants the story to die and, and to ensure that it does not die, we have to keep putting attention on it. And I think the most real and authentic way to put attention on it is to directly go to where this is happening.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

The group also asked to visit a Venezuelan man who they say was also wrongfully deported, Andre Jose Hernandez Rodmero, a gay makeup artist who was seeking asylum. The Democratic members of Congress say they were also not able to speak to him nor get any proof of life. The ongoing trade war between the US And China is maybe, just maybe not good for us in the long run. Trump's tariffs on Chinese goods top out at 145%. China has retaliated with a 125% tax on US goods. During a speech at the Institute of International Finance on Wednesday, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant talked up the opportunity for the two countries to make a deal.

[J.D. Vance]

If they want to rebalance, let's do it together.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

Besant's speech came after the Wall Street Journal reported that the Trump administration may reduce its steep tariffs on Chinese goods. CNBC reported Tuesday. Besant told investors that he expects a quote, de escalation in trade tensions between the US And China in the, quote, very near future. But some folks aren't willing to wait and see. A dozen states filed a lawsuit in federal court on Wednesday over Trump's trade war. The states allege that the president's tariff policy has been dictated by his, quote, whims rather than the sound exercise of lawful authority. And they're asking the court to declare Trump's tariffs illegal and block US Officials from enforcing them.

[Pam Bondi]

We're excited to be here for the launch of the task force to eradicate anti Christian bias as outlined in the President's executive order.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

If you are confused by this announcement from Attorney General Pam Bondi, let me back up for just a moment. Remember in February when President Trump issued that executive order assembling a task force meant to weed out anti Christian policies from the Biden administration? Do you remember that? It was weird for so many reasons, including the fact that former President Joe Biden is Catholic, a denomination that falls under the umbrella of Christianity. Also the fact that Christians are by far the largest faith group in the country. But back to the point, that order names the Attorney General chair of the Task Force to Eradicate Anti Christian Bias. Just a reminder that these are the same people who stopped funding cancer research and stopped feeding malnourished kids because they said it was a waste of your money. On Tuesday, Bondi convened the group's inaugural meeting with other government representatives.

[Pam Bondi]

Together, this task force will identify any unlawful anti Christian policies, practices or conduct across the government. Seek input from the faith based organizations and state governments to end anti Christian bias.

[Josie Duffy Rice]

The Department of Veterans affairs followed suit with Secretary Doug Collins urging employees to report any internal instance of anti Christian discrimination. The AP reviewed the email that Collins sent asking for quote, names, dates and locations of any alleged incidents like unofficial understandings, hostile to Christian views, adverse responses to requests for religious exemption under the previous vaccine mandates, and reprimands for displaying Christian imagery or symbols. This is a reminder you can't say Happy Holidays anymore. The war on Christmas is over. You say Happy Holidays, we're going to get you. The VA is not the only department that got the president's memo. The State Department made similar requests earlier this month to its employees in line with Trump's executive order. And that's the news. Before we go, the Trump crowd has found a new target America's universities. Under the guise of fighting antisemitism and gutting dei, the right is threatening campus funding, calling in immigration authorities and turning academic freedom into a battleground. On today's new episode of Assembly Required, Stacey Abrams talks to Wesleyan University President Michael Roth and Barnard Professor Nara Milenich about what's at stake and how students and faculty can fight back. From reading local student newspapers to raising your voice in your college's community, tune into assembly required now on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. That is all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, pray you don't end up on the Anti Christian Bias Task Force hit list and tell your friends to listen. And if you are into reading and not just Trump's God bless the USA Bible. Available for $60. Like me, what a Day is also a nightly newsletter, so check it out and [e-mail] subscribe hi, I'm Josie Duffy Rice, and wishing people happy holidays is a form of resistance.

[Unknown Speaker]

What a Day is a production of Crooked Media. It's recorded and mixed by Desmond Taylor. Our associate producers are Raven Yamamoto and Emily Foer. Our producer is Michelle Aloy. We had production help today from Johanna Kim, Joseph Dutra, Greg Walters and Julia Claire. Our senior producer is Erica Morrison and our executive producer is Adrienne Hill. Our theme music is by Colin Gilliard and Kashaka. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. East.

[Pam Bondi]

Amazon has everything for every kind of Mother's Day. Whether that's a massage gun for an at home spa day or new shoes for her favorite salsa class. Or gifts like a biker helmet to unleash her inner daredevil. From hot stones to helmets, shop everything for Mother's Day on Amazon.

[Unknown Speaker]

Three distinct all electric Cadillacs. Some drive them for the performance, others drive them for the range, and some drive them because it's the only way to make an entrance. Three different ways to turn every drive into an occasion. Whatever your reason, there's never been a better time to say lets take the Cadillac. The all electric Cadillac family of vehicles Escalade, IQ Optic and Lyriq.