Beating the House: Inside the World of Advantage Gambling with Richard Munchkin and Bob Dancer

Summary

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Podcast Summary: What Are You Made Of?

Episode: Beating the House: Inside the World of Advantage Gambling
Host: Mike “C-Roc” Ciorrocco
Guests: Richard Munchkin & Bob Dancer
Date: March 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves deep into the world of professional advantage gambling—how skilled players use skill, discipline, and math to turn the tables on casinos. Host C-Roc is joined by renowned advantage players and authors Richard Munchkin and Bob Dancer. The conversation covers their personal journeys, the evolution of casino gaming, strategies to maintain an edge, the culture of gambling, and the mindset required for sustained success. Throughout, real-life stories provide insight into both the glamour and the grind of a life spent “beating the house.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins & Backgrounds

• Meeting & Early Influences:
  • Both guests met at a backgammon club in LA during the 1990s, a period when backgammon was a popular betting game.
    • "[Backgammon] was tremendously popular… You would see it on TV shows and in commercials... Playboy magazine was a big promoter of it." —Richard Munchkin [00:34]
• Becoming "APs" (Advantage Players):
  • The term "AP" stands for Advantage Player, not just “gambler”—they play only when they have a provable mathematical edge.
    • "We call ourselves APs, which stands for Advantage Gambler." —Richard Munchkin [01:04]

2. Emotional vs. Professional Gambling

• Both acknowledged early flirtations with the emotional pull of gambling, but quickly shifted to a mathematical, strategic approach.
  • "For the most part, I outgrew [emotional gambling]... In video poker it’s relatively easy to determine what edge you have." —Bob Dancer [01:40]
  • Richard describes his transformation:
    • "From the very beginning, I always was trying to get an edge… I checked out every book they had on poker and started reading and studying." —Richard Munchkin [05:28]

3. Building a Career as an AP

• Initial Experiences:
  • Richard began “grinding” using poker and backgammon and quickly found blackjack as a professional opportunity through card counting.
    • "I moved out to Las Vegas with the intention of becoming a professional blackjack player." —Richard Munchkin [06:28]
• Bob’s Path:
  • Bob discovered video poker, became an expert, author, and educator in the field.
    • Describes how to use promotions, comps, and slot club rewards to hone the mathematical advantage. [01:40–04:33]

4. The Changing Casino Landscape

• Discussion of how casinos have evolved, from mob-run Vegas to today’s corporate environment.
  • "I had friends who were beaten, severely beaten... Now, fortunately… the casinos have learned you can’t just grab somebody and drag them in the back room." —Richard Munchkin [10:18]
• The explosion of casinos beyond Vegas made it easier to pursue the profession even after being banned in some locations or countries. [09:37–09:52]

5. The Reality of Casino "Bans"

• Both have been banned or asked not to play at various casinos—Bob mostly in Nevada, Richard even internationally.
  • "I’m not allowed in some countries." —Richard Munchkin [08:46]

6. Wildest Wins and Losses

• Biggest Wins:
  • Bob: "I hit a $100,000 royal, which was kind of a lot. But then a half hour later, [my wife] hit a $400,000 royal…" [11:02]
  • Richard: "We won a $100,000 on Friday night—and on Saturday and Sunday, we lost it all back." [11:43]
• Perspective:
  • Both emphasize the volatility—big short-term wins can vanish quickly.

7. Casino Perks & Comps

• Richard plays anonymously, rarely accepting comps.
• Bob accrued legendary perks—cruises, luxury suites:
  • "The Mansion... is luxurious. I would see Tiger Woods in the hallway. The bathroom had four TVs..." —Bob Dancer [16:26]
  • Reveals the oddity of casinos comping players to gamble elsewhere. [15:00–16:23]

8. Inside Stories: Mob-Era Vegas & “Casino” the Movie

• Richard almost worked for Frank Rosenthal (basis for De Niro’s character in Casino) but passed to pursue his own path:
  • "He called me the next day and says... Go to the Stardust and talk to Frank Rosenthal." [18:55]
  • "I was like, you know what? Never mind. I’ll try to find my own job." [18:56]

9. Headlines: Ohtani Scandal & Modern Bookmaking

• They touch on the Ohtani gambling scandal and guest connections with bookie Matt Boyer.
  • "Nobody goes to jail for being a bookie… just because of all the publicity." —Richard Munchkin [19:41]
  • Discussion of kickbacks, casino-host arrangements, and money laundering [19:53–20:35]

10. Gambling as a Business: Bankroll & Investments

• Early winnings were re-invested to grow their bankrolls; success brought diversification into stock and other traditional investments.
  • "The more you can bet, the more you’re winning, but... you bump up against the actual limits of the game." —Richard Munchkin [21:18]
  • Bob outsources investing: "I have hired a financial advisor... I let him worry about that while I spend my energy making the money." [21:55]
• Crypto is used for moving money, but not as long-term investment. [22:25–22:42]

11. Social Media & the Rise of Gambling Influencers

• Discussion of modern gamblers using platforms like Instagram and YouTube to share strategies and stream live play.
  • Casinos sometimes restrict these influencers—but some, like Plaza Las Vegas, actively encourage and facilitate it.
  • "The Plaza in Las Vegas has set up a media room... They want to eventually go 24 hours a day." —Richard Munchkin [25:19]

12. The Science & Art of Card Counting

• Explanation of shoe-deck counting: it works with any number of decks, not just single deck.
  • "It doesn’t matter how many decks there are... six decks as it is to count four." —Richard Munchkin [26:39]
• Basic method: add +1 for low cards, –1 for tens and aces.
  • "The more little cards that are gone... the better it is for the player." —Richard Munchkin [27:16]
• Staying under the casino’s radar is as important as the math itself.
  • "Getting the edge is only half of it. The other half is figuring out how to make money at it... staying in the game and not getting kicked out is key." —Richard Munchkin [28:49, 29:06]

13. Beating Carnival Table Games

• Some "carnival" games (like Three Card Poker) can be beaten, but usually only with dealer mistakes.
  • "The biggest way [to beat Three Card Poker] is to have a sloppy dealer who shows you the bottom card…" —Bob Dancer [29:36]
• Otherwise: “play another game.” [29:57]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On The Mindset of Advantage Play:
  • "From the very beginning, I always was trying to get an edge..." —Richard Munchkin [05:28]
  • "You have to learn how to disguise that you’re counting cards as well... That’s part of the game." —C-Roc [28:39]
• On Vegas in the Mob Era:
  • "Back then, no lawyer would take any kind of case against a casino because the casinos ran Nevada. Now, fortunately, there are lawyers who will take those cases." —Richard Munchkin [10:18]
• On Winning & Losing:
  • "We won a hundred thousand dollars... and on Saturday and Sunday, we lost it all back… so it wasn’t a bad trip. We broke even." —Richard Munchkin [11:43]
• On Social Media in Gambling:
  • "There can be blackjack influencers or slot influencers... [One] will lose hundreds of thousand dollars in the casino over the year and make millions from YouTube." —Bob Dancer [23:58]
• On the Secret to Longevity:
  • "Any form of gambling, getting the edge is only half of it. The other half is figuring out how to actually make money at it. It’s a totally different skill." —Richard Munchkin [28:49]

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Key Timestamps

• 00:54–01:10: Definition of “Advantage Player/Advantage Gambling”
• 05:27–06:28: Richard’s origin story: discovering card counting and professional play
• 10:18–11:02: Mob-era casino stories and evolving legal landscape
• 11:02–12:07: Biggest wins…and losing it back
• 15:00–16:23: The wildest comps and perks; the Mansion at MGM
• 18:55–19:08: Nearly working for Frank Rosenthal (“Casino”)
• 19:29–20:35: The Ohtani/bookie scandal, behind-the-scenes look
• 21:18–22:42: Transition from bankroll building to diversified investment, crypto for transactions
• 25:19–25:41: The rise of social media gambling influencers and casinos’ responses
• 26:39–27:29: Detailed breakdown of card counting methods
• 28:49–29:06: The “cat and mouse” of making money and not getting thrown out
• 29:36–29:57: Ways to find an edge (or not) in Three Card Poker

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Conclusion & Where to Find Them

• Richard & Bob’s Podcast:
  Gambling with an Edge
  "Most of our guests are winning players... authors, lawyers, all related to gambling and getting an edge at it." —Bob Dancer [25:56]
• Recommended Reading:
  • Knockout Blackjack (for would-be card counters) [28:11, 30:35]
• Final Connection:
  • C-Roc plans to link up with the guests in Vegas, reinforcing the theme of building strong, resilient networks and communities.

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For listeners:
This episode offers rare, frank insight into the philosophy, tactics, wins, losses, and shifting landscape of the world’s top professional gamblers—blending history, strategy, and a sense of adventure. Whether you’re a curious newcomer, a seasoned casino player, or just interested in resilience and performance under pressure, the conversation is packed with stories and practical wisdom.

Transcript

[C. Rock]

Welcome back to the what do you made up show. It's your boy C. Rock here I'm with Richard Munchkin and Bob Dancer. See these, these guys are some of the most advantageous gamblers to the point where they probably shouldn't be called gamblers, from what I understand. So, Richard, Bob, welcome to the show.

[Bob Dancer]

Thank you.

[Richard Munchkin]

Happy to be here.

[C. Rock]

All right, fellas. We were talking a little bit before I hit record, but you guys met at a backgammon club in la and I didn't even know they had those. Do they still have those?

[Bob Dancer]

I think the cabin the best. In the early 90s, I moved there

[Richard Munchkin]

are still backgammon clubs. You know, they're not. In the 70s, backgammon was tremendously popular. And you would see it on TV shows and in commercials and Playboy magazine was a big promoter of it. So it's not as common as it once was, but there are clubs still out there.

[C. Rock]

Okay, gotcha. And you mentioned advantageous. I think that's what you said. Advantageous gamblers. Is that what you. Yes, Richard.

[Richard Munchkin]

Yeah. Or we call ourselves aps, which stands for Advantage Gambler.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. Okay, so I gotta, I gotta ask you this because, like most of the time people have problems with gambling is because they get their emotions involved. Right. And it's an emotional chase. Right. How have you guys. Did you ever go into that phase where you were chasing and feeling that. That addiction feeling, and then have to like evolve into an AP or how did that all shake out?

[Richard Munchkin]

Well, first, Bob, I.

[Bob Dancer]

I was a. I had some gamble in me and would gamble. And sometimes when it wasn't quite in my advantage, I for the most part outgrew that and have been starting in the early 90s, I found out about video poker, have been trying to master it for 35 years, writing about it, teaching it. Still gambling. And in video poker, it is relatively easy to determine what edge you have. The game itself, you can look at it and see how much you get for the flush, how much you get for the full house, and know that that game pays 99.32% or some other number. And every game pays different Casinos have slot clubs, which means you put in. For every thousand dollars you put in, they give you one, two or three dollars back. They send mailers, which means after you've played enough, come in and they will give you $20 or 3,000 or some number in between. Sometimes once, sometimes daily, sometimes frequently. They have promotions of all kinds. Any. Every marketing department can come up with their own promotions. A lot of them are Mathematically determined that if you play, if you put 150,000 through the machine over these three days, we will give you $2,000 or a fantastic luggage set.

[C. Rock]

Your pick.

[Bob Dancer]

I. I have enough luggage. And so you can determine how much that is worth. They also have promotions where you can't really determine it, such as everybody plays, and for every thousand dollars they run through, they get one drawing ticket. And at the end of the day, week or month, they have a drawing and they give away such and such. And you never really know how many tickets are in the drum, and you never. So you don't. It's hard to figure out exactly how much that is worth. But if these have these regularly, they normally give away about the same amount. And they are. They are worth pursuing. And you get an instinct as to whether this one is big enough to go for. And so whether it's worth 0.1%, 0.5, 0.5%, whatever, some number, you get a feeling for what that's worth. And overall, if it's over 100 and they're feeding you and they're sending a plane for you and all kinds of good things, It's a good place.

[C. Rock]

Now, do you. You guys are both professional. This is what you do for a living?

[Bob Dancer]

Yes.

[Richard Munchkin]

Yeah.

[C. Rock]

Okay.

[Bob Dancer]

For.

[C. Rock]

For.

[Richard Munchkin]

In my case, for almost 50 years.

[C. Rock]

So, so what. What did you do to start? Like, how. Like, did you have a job or a business that you had that. That financed us to start, or did you just start making money in this right away?

[Richard Munchkin]

In my case, I grew up playing games. Chess and any game, board games. And in high school, my older brother invited some friends over to play poker, and we were playing literally for nickels and dimes. And at the end of the night, I had won $5.20. And for me, it was like the heavens opened and the angels began to sing. And I was like, oh, my God, I can actually make me playing cards. Like, what could be better than that?

[C. Rock]

Yeah.

[Richard Munchkin]

And I went to the library the next day. I checked out every book they had on poker and started reading and studying. And then backgammon became very popular. And I did the same thing with backgammon, because there was money to be made. So, no, I never had the, like, oh, gee, I want to just gamble for fun. I. From the very beginning, I always was trying to get an edge. And then what happened was a guy told me about counting cards at blackjack, if you've seen the movie 21. And at first I thought the guy was out of his mind, but he Explained it, and he recommended a book called Playing Blackjack as a Business. And I read it and I was like, oh, okay, this is math, this is real. And I started studying. And then when I finished college, I just moved out to Las Vegas with the intention of becoming a professional blackjack player.

[C. Rock]

Gotcha. Okay. And did you guys ever play Texas hold' em and get into those tournaments?

[Richard Munchkin]

I've played Texas hold' em, mostly recreationally. Yeah, that's, that's not my area of expertise.

[C. Rock]

And how about you, Bob? Besides the video poker, did you get into the table game?

[Bob Dancer]

I've tried poker. Somehow everybody at the table knows what my cards are, so I decided that isn't my game. And so now that I actually have enough knowledge to play the game well, my, my eyesight is not such that I can clearly see the cards in the center. So my, my window for Texas hold' Em has closed.

[C. Rock]

Okay, how about sports gambling? Either one of you?

[Richard Munchkin]

Yep, for the last two years, actually, I was full time betting sports. And the tax law changed as of January 1st, so that now. So in the past, as a gambler, you can write off your losses against your wins, and they passed a law now that says you can only write off 90% of your losses against your wins, which means literally, if you, as a Recreational better bet $10,000 and then lose $10,000, you're still gonna owe tax on one. On 10% of that.

[C. Rock]

Yeah.

[Richard Munchkin]

Even though you lost, Even though you broke even?

[C. Rock]

Yeah. It's like if you're. Anyway, you're hitting 60, 60, 65%, you're really at 55%. And then you lose to the Juice. Now you're losing the Juice?

[Richard Munchkin]

Well, sort of, yeah. Anyway, after two years of sports gambling, I decided I was much happier doing other forms of gambling than that. So I've. I've now stopped.

[C. Rock]

Okay. So Bob is video poker. Richard, what's your thing now? What's your focus?

[Richard Munchkin]

Blackjack and table. Other table games in the casino.

[C. Rock]

Okay.

[Richard Munchkin]

They've invented all these new games that they call carnival games.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. And three card poker.

[Richard Munchkin]

Often you can find an advantage at those games.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. Gotcha. And have you guys gotten so good now that, that, that you're not allowed in some casinos?

[Richard Munchkin]

I'm not allowed in some countries.

[C. Rock]

Really?

[Richard Munchkin]

Yeah.

[C. Rock]

So. So you moved to Vegas and then is there ever been a time where you didn't have anywhere to play, either one of you?

[Richard Munchkin]

Oh, yeah, go ahead.

[Bob Dancer]

For me, I've. There's a number of places in Vegas who don't welcome my action. There are still places in Vegas I can bet small stakes. And for most of my video poker, I fly to places that aren't in Nevada, and there are still places I can do it.

[Richard Munchkin]

Yeah. When I first started playing, there were. There were no other casinos outside Nevada.

[Bob Dancer]

Right.

[Richard Munchkin]

Atlantic City hadn't even opened yet.

[C. Rock]

Okay.

[Richard Munchkin]

And so once, you know, I got thrown out of all the casinos in Vegas. And you. You tried disguises and changing your look, and then eventually I started going to other countries to play. So.

[C. Rock]

Okay.

[Richard Munchkin]

But now there are casinos everywhere in the United States, and so you get thrown out of one, and you drive down the road to the next one and, you know, just. Yeah, so.

[C. Rock]

So when you started back in the day, it was when the mob was running it versus corporations. And so did they handle things a little differently kicking you out of the casino back then than they do nowadays?

[Richard Munchkin]

Well, I was fortunate nothing bad happened to me. I had friends who were beaten, severely beaten, threatened, all of those things. And back then, no lawyer would take any kind of case against a casino because the casinos ran Nevada. Now, fortunately, there are lawyers who will take those cases. And the casinos have learned you can't just grab somebody and drag them in the back room in handcuffs and treat them like a criminal when they're not doing anything illegal.

[C. Rock]

Right, Right. I'm asking these questions that I know the viewers that have. What. What is the most that either, you know, both of you. What. What is the most that you've won in. In one day total?

[Bob Dancer]

For me, it depends on how you count. It would probably be. My former wife and I were gambling at the MGM, and I hit a $100,000 royal, which was kind of a lot. But then a half hour later, she hit a $400,000 royal, which was our biggest. So our net for the day was about 350,000 ahead. And.

[C. Rock]

Jeez.

[Bob Dancer]

But she was the one who hit the button on the big one. So I don't know if that counts as my biggest day or not, But I was the one back of her head saying, play that button, even though you think it's too expensive for us to order.

[C. Rock]

And then. Richard, how about you?

[Richard Munchkin]

Yeah, with me, it's low six figures as well. And, you know, people ask that question a lot. And the. The story I tell them is, one time, my brother and I went to Busan, Korea, and on Friday night, we won a hundred thousand dollars, and on Saturday and Sunday, we lost it all back.

[C. Rock]

Yeah.

[Richard Munchkin]

So. So it wasn't a bad trip. We broke even.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. Yeah. I remember my. When I Was younger, I wouldn't go to Atlantic City. I'd be so damn excited. And we'd check in and I would tell my wife, take the bags upstairs. I gotta start. I was so damn excited. And I was playing three card, and I just had it run. And I got. And then I went and cashed my chips in. I took the money upstairs. My wife was ready to go to bed. She's like, all right, just come on, let's take the money. Let's go to bed. And I was, I, I, you know, I was young and dumb, probably 21, 22. I threw the cash on the bed. I was just acting like a knucklehead, right? Well, thank God she grabbed some of it. I didn't know about it because she's like, just go to bed. I'm like, no, no, I'm on a run. I can't go back. So I went back downstairs and I took what I. The whole thing, because I didn't even count it. And I lost it all. I had to go up the next morning. You know, I didn't go to bed, obviously, so I'll go to the next morning, she wakes up and she's like, how'd you do? And I had to tell her I lost it all. But luckily she. She took about probably 25% of it, so at least we were still up. But I didn't know that, so it made me feel a lot better. But. But I had this feeling.

[Bob Dancer]

Sounds like a keeper.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. 23 years. 23 years now. I had this feeling, though. I could feel this pull, this thing. I knew that I didn't, like, necessarily have control of at first, and I'm like, this is. And I, you know, I was betting football and sports and all this, and then I started thinking and I started making money in business, and I started realizing that, wait a minute, I'm not. I work too damn hard for this money. I'm not going to just give this money to them. And I look around and I'm like, I could have came here, bought the hotel room, bought nice dinner, and bought my wife some clothes at the expensive shops and would. Had something to show for the money. And I just stopped. And I. The only thing I gamble on now is golf. I. I'm a big golfer. And we, we have, we have pots that rent, you know, go 400 to $600,000 in these Calcuttas and different things. But I have some control there, right? I have some kind of semblance of. I have the ability to play my, Play my balls off. And win, you know, and I have. And, and, but that's the only thing I, I play around with now besides just some recreational fantasy stuff just for entertainment. But I admire you guys for having that control because you know, I just didn't think it was there to keep going. So. Now the other thing is, what's the wildest thing you've been given for your play from a casino?

[Richard Munchkin]

Huh? I'd have to. I mean in my case, most of the time I'm trying to play anonymously.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. So you're not signing up for the rewards cards and stuff.

[Richard Munchkin]

Right, right. Because if they know who I am, they're gonna tell me not to play.

[C. Rock]

Right.

[Richard Munchkin]

So I, I think Bob would have much better, much better perks from the casinos than, than I have.

[Bob Dancer]

I'm sure I do. And in video poker you have to play with your name because for until January of this year, every jackpot of twelve hundred dollars or higher, they brought you a tax form. And this January it became 2000. But that's still a low number. I've played at stakes where some years I get multiple millions of dollars worth of W2Gs at places. So they all know who I am. They don't know I'm Bob Dancer. All know that I'm Bob Dancer. But they do know that whatever name it is that's on my driver's license. And so. But you get. The one that baffles me the most is cruises. I, I've got, I've been on, I don't know, 50 cruises, something. And they all have casinos and it do not understand why a land based casino would pay you to go gamble somewhere else. Now the one who owns Caesars, now the Caesars inherit system which is called El Dorado. They also own part of Norwegian cruise lines. So it makes some sense that the free cruiser that they give you on Norwegian because they're giving it back. But it boggles the minds.

[C. Rock]

But

[Bob Dancer]

when I played at the mgm, they have a place called the Mansion. The, it is luxurious. I would see Tiger woods in the hallway. I mean there's 39 suites. The bathroom which had four TVs was bigger than my first apartment. There are concierge service which means the maids are coming in and out of the room at all times. Not the time to sleep in the bus. It's just, it's amazing. And I was, I was winning. They started putting me up there as soon as I hit a $100,000 royal, which was 1999, which is by far the biggest jackpot I've had to that point. And they wanted me to keep playing, not realizing that I had an edge. Eventually, they became convinced that it was a big edge, and they invited me not to play there anymore.

[C. Rock]

Gotcha. Okay. And. And when you guys were playing, do you remember. You remember the movie Casino, right?

[Bob Dancer]

Sure.

[Richard Munchkin]

Oh, yeah. And that's basically I moved to Vegas. Right. During that whole time.

[C. Rock]

So that's based on a true story, right? So you were there when.

[Richard Munchkin]

Oh, yeah.

[C. Rock]

And so you know who the. Who they were basing that off of? Did you guys ever run into those people?

[Bob Dancer]

Sure.

[Richard Munchkin]

In fact, yeah. In fact, when. When I first moved to Vegas, I didn't have a lot of money for it to start my card counting career. So I thought, I'll get a job as a blackjack dealer, and that way I can Practice counting cards 8 hours a day and then go out afterwards. And I started out at the Golden Nugget, which is down on Fremont street, downtown Vegas. And I'd been there about nine months, and I had a regular customer, a woman who lived in Vegas. And one day she says to me, why aren't you dealing at a place on the Strip? You'd make a lot more money. And I said, well, I don't have any. I don't have any in Vegas. It's called Juice. I don't have any Juice. Any connections, because that's the only way you could get a job on the Strip. And she looked at me like I was an idiot, and she said, you, father is a lawyer in Chicago, and you think you don't have any juice? And I was like, oh, I never thought of that. So I called my dad and I said, hey, would you ask your friends if they can get me a job on the Strip? And he called me the next day, and he says, yeah, I can get you a job. Go to the Stardust and talk to Frank Rosenthal.

[C. Rock]

Get out.

[Richard Munchkin]

Frank Rosenthal was the guy that Robert De Niro played in the movie Casino. And I already knew his reputation, and I was like, you know what? Never mind. I'll try to find my own job.

[C. Rock]

Geez. Wow, man. That's crazy. And, you know, so. So Juice. I'm gonna start using that. Because I'm a networker. I connect, and I'm connected. And I'm gonna start saying, I have a lot of juice.

[Richard Munchkin]

Well, you're right.

[Bob Dancer]

You do.

[Richard Munchkin]

If you. If you're a networker, you do have a lot of juice.

[C. Rock]

I like that. So did you guys hear about the Ohtani scandal?

[Richard Munchkin]

Of course. Yeah.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. So I became friends With Matt Boyer who was the bookie. And he just got out of prison. He had to serve, I think four or five months of his 13 month sentence, something like that.

[Richard Munchkin]

And you know, I have to say that's crazy. Like nobody goes to jail for being a bookie. That's, it's just, I mean, just because of all of the publicity and stuff, I guess they felt like they have to, had to.

[C. Rock]

Yeah, yeah. They had to protect the golden boy in the mlb. Right. And then, and then they, they threw, threw the hammer down on the interpreter. Interpreter apparently was stealing the money. And Matt, Matt, man, he would tell me stories. He's been on my podcast before too. He's told me stories about all the things that they would do. Flying them out there and private jets and going, you know, going all kinds of places and just, they were just taking care of him. But what happened was, and he told the story publicly so I could share this. He had his wife become a host hostess at one of the places because the hosts, the hostesses get a percentage of their whales that they bring in what they gamble so that he would make some of that money back through that. And I think there was some money laundering that was tied into Resorts World and Resorts World got in trouble.

[Richard Munchkin]

Yeah.

[C. Rock]

And so he, he, I think testified possibly against them and they flipped him and, and so that lowered his sentence down. But man, what a fascinating story, man. It's pretty wild like what happens in that world. The other thing is, I was thinking about when you guys now are going out there, like, do you, do you like when you win money and you, and you get a good chunk now do you look at it as I'm going to reinvest this into my bankroll or do you guys have financial vehicles that you use for investment outside of gambling?

[Richard Munchkin]

Well, I think both of us are at a point in our careers where we, we, we've been very successful. So we don't certainly in the beginning, I, I, I think both of us are the same. We kept reinvesting the money in our bankrolls, so because the more you can bet, the more you're, you're winning, but then at a certain point you bump up against the actual limits of the game or whatever. And, and at that point, you know, so I mean, I of course have investments in the stock market and you know, other things.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. Bob, how about you?

[Bob Dancer]

Well, I have investments in the stock market. I actually have hired a financial advisor against the advice of a lot of my gambling friends that they say you got to do it Yourself. And so I, I let him worry about that while I spend my energy making the money and bringing it in.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. Where your genius is. Yeah, yeah. What about crypto? Have you guys gotten into crypto, bitcoin or anything?

[Bob Dancer]

I have not.

[Richard Munchkin]

I've used crypto because when you're betting sports, there are places where the best way to get the money in and out of the. Of the sports book is through crypto. But I have not purchased crypto as an investment.

[C. Rock]

Okay. Now I got a guy named John Sirsani who is a guy, sold his company for multi millions and now he started playing blackjack a lot and he's on social media a lot. And he tell. He basically does live shoots in the casinos while he's playing blackjack in the high limit section and he broadcasts it out there. But he also gives a lot of tips and things that he uses and some of the casinos don't like that. And they won't let him come in there. Not just because of the shooting the video of it, but because of the information he's giving to his followers.

[Richard Munchkin]

Did you say is his last name Cipriani?

[C. Rock]

Sirasani? Sirasani.

[Richard Munchkin]

Okay.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. But he's very entertaining too. He's, he's a, he's a character, but he played it. He played football at Notre Dame and. But yeah, he's, he's fun to watch. He's fun to watch.

[Richard Munchkin]

Is he based in Las Vegas?

[C. Rock]

No, I think he's based outside of Chicago or in Chicago.

[Richard Munchkin]

Okay.

[C. Rock]

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, you should check him out though, when you get a chance. He's on Instagram. I don't know if you guys are on Instagram at all. Do you guys play around with social media at all?

[Richard Munchkin]

I, I am on Instagram, although I just look at it. I don't post much. I'm. I'm on Twitter more than anything else.

[C. Rock]

Okay. Bob, you're not on social media, are you?

[Bob Dancer]

Mostly I avoid social media. But what you were talking about before, they, they call their influencers. There can be blackjack influencers or slot influencers. The biggest one is based in Vegas. His name is Vegas Matt. And he recently he will, he will lose hundreds of thousand dollars in the casino over the year and make millions from YouTube and other sources.

[C. Rock]

Yeah.

[Bob Dancer]

And he had a very exciting interview. Is it So I don't have the personality to do that. I would like to. I have more video poker knowledge than anybody else, but. And could share things. But a video poker class is kind of a dry math class.

[C. Rock]

Yeah.

[Bob Dancer]

And somehow math classes on YouTube just don't sell.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. And you know, with the John Sears guy's doing is he's getting attention on the casinos that he's in, so he's kind of marketing for them and promoting them in a way. So there's, there's definitely value there for them.

[Richard Munchkin]

Yeah, I mean, actually the Plaza in Las Vegas has set up a. A media room where the whole room is cameraed and miked, and they encourage people to come and, and they're live streaming it, you know, every day.

[C. Rock]

Oh, really?

[Richard Munchkin]

They want to eventually go 24 hours a day.

[C. Rock]

Gotcha. Wow. All right, so that. Then on the podcast. Let's wrap this up with the podcast. So you guys got the podcast going. What do you guys talk about?

[Richard Munchkin]

Advantage Gambling.

[C. Rock]

Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying. You guys give specific things of how to do it.

[Bob Dancer]

Yeah, it's an interview show, not unlike this one. Most of our guests are winning players in, in a, in a wide variety of gambling areas. Some are authors who've written books, some are lawyers, some are. But they're all related to gambling and getting an edge at it. And our audience is mainly other Advantage players and wannabe Advantage players.

[C. Rock]

Gotcha. Okay, now I gotta, I gotta touch on this one real quick. Counting cards, is that for a six shoe deck? What does it work on it.

[Richard Munchkin]

It doesn't matter how many decks there are. You know that, that when the casinos first brought in, they started with four decks and then they went to six, and now some places eight. And in their mind they thought, oh, well, people won't be able to count this. But it, it's really not much more difficult at all to count six decks as it is to count four.

[C. Rock]

And that's the plus one. You. Plus and minus. That's how it works, right?

[Richard Munchkin]

Plus and minus. Yeah. So you're just keeping one number in your head that goes up and down, you know, with pluses and minuses.

[C. Rock]

Okay. So just so we understand, the pluses are the ones that are what, face cards?

[Richard Munchkin]

The opposite. So the more little cards that are gone from the shoe, the better it is for the player. So when you see the little count cards, those count plus.

[C. Rock]

Okay.

[Richard Munchkin]

The tens and aces count minus.

[C. Rock]

Okay.

[Richard Munchkin]

Tens and aces count minus each other out.

[C. Rock]

And so the lower that number, that one number you're remembering is the more you're going to be higher.

[Richard Munchkin]

The higher it is, the more.

[C. Rock]

Because they're coming out as you're counting them. They're coming out as you count them.

[Richard Munchkin]

They're plus One.

[C. Rock]

Okay, so the higher it is. Right, Right. Better get this right or I'll be gambling. Just I might be playing too much at the wrong time. So the higher it is, the more you can bet and the more you lay out.

[Richard Munchkin]

Right. And, and, but anybody who's interested really should pick up a book. There's one that I would recommend called knockout blackjack, which is kind of one of the easiest, you know, ways to, to learn.

[C. Rock]

And then, and how. How quick are they now to catch on to somebody counting cards?

[Richard Munchkin]

Just depends on where, where in the world you are. I, I mean, some places in Vegas are very quick to catch you and, and will disseminate your picture to the other casinos in their chain or whatever. And then other places you might go and they're very slow to, to pick it up.

[C. Rock]

And so, so just. So is there also. Not only you have to learn how to count cards, you have to learn how to disguise that you're counting cards as well somehow. Right. That's part of the game.

[Richard Munchkin]

And any form of gambling, getting the edge is only half of it. And the other half is figuring out how to actually make money at it. It's a totally different skill.

[C. Rock]

Yeah, because making money, part of making money is staying in the game and not getting kicked out or not getting banned. Right. So, I mean, you gotta.

[Richard Munchkin]

Exactly.

[C. Rock]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Richard Munchkin]

Exactly. So, so the first question I ask myself if I go in somewhere to play a table game is what do I think this casino is comfortable losing without making any waves?

[C. Rock]

Right, right. Because that's what matters.

[Richard Munchkin]

I'm only guessing, but, you know, and then I want to stay under that number.

[C. Rock]

Okay. And then finally here. This is the last thing I'll talk about. Three Card Poker. Is there a way to get an edge on Three Card Poker?

[Bob Dancer]

Yes, the biggest way is to have a sloppy dealer who shows you the bottom card when he's putting it under his. And if that's, if you have that, that's a significant advantage if you know what to do with it.

[C. Rock]

How about anybody? What else? What else? If they're not sloppy, what else can you do?

[Bob Dancer]

I'll play another game.

[C. Rock]

Yeah, okay, gotcha. Yeah, it's a fun game if you're just playing for chance and entertainment, but it's. Because when you're, when you're peeking at that card, if you do it the right way, right. You look at that first one and then you slide the other one very carefully.

[Richard Munchkin]

Oh, well, you might also try. There's a game called Ultimate Texas hold'.

[C. Rock]

Em. I've seen that one.

[Richard Munchkin]

It's. Yeah, that's an entertaining game to play as well.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen, again, you're.

[Richard Munchkin]

You're, you're playing a losing game unless you, you know, unless you actually do some study and find out how to beat these things.

[C. Rock]

Yeah. So what was the name of that one blackjack book called again? The Knockout.

[Richard Munchkin]

Knockout Blackjack.

[C. Rock]

Knock jack, Knockout KO Blackjack. Okay. Okay, we'll have to check that out. I'm coming out to Vegas the third week of May, so, yeah, when I come out there, I'll hit you guys up, let you know I'm in town and grab. Grab some. Grab. Grab a bite to eat at least.

[Bob Dancer]

Good.

[Richard Munchkin]

Sounds good.

[C. Rock]

And what's the name of the podcast for. For the listeners?

[Bob Dancer]

Gambling with an edge.

[C. Rock]

Gambling with an edge. Go check it out, folks. That's Richard Munchkin and Bob Dancer joining us here on the Woody made up show. Fellas, thank you so much for your time today.

[Bob Dancer]

Thank you, Sirock.

[C. Rock]

All right, enjoy the rest of your week, folks. That's this episode of the way you made up show. Make sure you hit the subscribe follow button at the top of your favorite podcast platform and keep coming back. I am off to LA this week for Biohackers World. I'm gonna be speaking out there and hanging out with that one network. Keep an eye out for the content until next time. Be that one.