Built Different: Systems, Willpower and the Truth About Longevity with Ben Brown

Summary

Podcast Summary: Built Different: Systems, Willpower and the Truth About Longevity with Ben Brown

What Are You Made Of? with Mike "C-Roc" Ciorrocco
Date: February 16, 2026
Guest: Ben Brown (Body Systems)

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Mike “C-Roc” Ciorrocco sits down with Ben Brown, founder of Body Systems and performance coach, to deconstruct what it really takes to achieve long-term health, resilience, and personal transformation. The discussion goes deep on the principles behind sustained high performance—from daily behaviors and family legacy, to willpower, biohacking trends, diet flexibility, and the surprising truth about professional sports nutrition. There’s a special emphasis on living as a true example, not just a coach, and using systems that keep you performing at your prime, regardless of age.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Living as a Walking Example

• The Importance of “Walking the Talk”:
  • Ben emphasizes leading by example both for his business and family, sharing how he keeps in shape to model healthy behaviors for his kids and clients.

    “The number one accountability tool is walking the talk. ...being physically fit, healthy, lean and strong makes everything in your life better.”
    (Ben Brown, [02:37])

  • Mike connects, highlighting how today’s expectations for leaders are higher—people now expect alignment between what you preach and what you practice.
• Family Influence and Personal Legacy:
  • Ben reflects on how parenting through different life stages makes him more aware of aging and drives his motivation for longevity, not just performance.

    “I feel like I'm experiencing the aging process much more as a byproduct of just experiencing my kids’ growth...”
    (Ben Brown, [01:09])

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2. Origin Story: Building a High-Performance Network

• Ben’s Background & Networking:
  • Degree from University of Arizona, played rugby at a high level.
  • Rugby and fitness circles led to consulting for the Golden State Warriors and Arizona Diamondbacks.

    “One of those connections ended up being the wife of one of my old coaches, was the head physio for the Warriors. And so she brought me on as a nutrition and supplement consultant...”
    (Ben Brown, [04:57])

  • Emphasizes the value of relationships—opportunities in elite sports (and business) come from both expertise and personal networks.

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3. The Reality of Professional Sports Nutrition

• Imposter Syndrome & Standards in Pro Sports:
  • Ben shares his initial doubts about meeting pro-athlete standards, but quickly learned that most teams’ practices aren’t radically different than general population best practices.

    “The vast majority of them are not doing anything that is so above and beyond what we're doing with general population. In many instances, some of the stuff they're doing is so old school and outdated.”
    (Ben Brown, [06:55])

• Organizational Resistance:
  • Notes the bureaucratic challenges in pro sports—nutrition’s value is obvious but often slow to implement due to tradition and red tape.
  • Cites LeBron James as a rare example of investing millions in his body for career longevity.

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4. Biohacking, Nutrition, and False Shortcuts

• The Role of Nutrition vs. Biohacking:
  • Mike and Ben agree: while peptides, supplements, and “hacks” are trendy, they’re ineffective without foundational nutrition.

    “You could do all the peptides you want to do...but if you don't have your nutrition, it's game over.”
    (Mike Ciorrocco, [09:33]) “We're just wasting our time and energy and money...when we're building this on a house of cards with poor lifestyle factors.”
    (Ben Brown, [10:17])

• Adapting Approaches as You Age:
  • Trying to train and recover like a 25-year-old at 40+ is a mistake. Systems have to be tailored to age, recovery, and hormones.

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5. Willpower: Systems Over Self-Control

• Debunking the Willpower Myth:
  • Ben introduces his Prime Fit Operating System:
    1. Data Collection: Tracking weight, calories, sleep, movement, blood markers.
    2. Behavioral Psychology: Success is less about “knowing what to do,” more about realistic expectations and mental framing.
    3. Art of Coaching: Individualized roadmaps based on unique lifestyles and stressors.

    “A lot of the reason we have a hard time making changes is not that we don’t know what to do; it’s what’s going on between the ears.”
    (Ben Brown, [11:41])

  • Willpower is finite—a “battery.” Success comes from minimizing decision fatigue by limiting tempting scenarios, not just having more discipline.

    “People that are most successful, it's not that they have more willpower, they just simply limit the situations where they have to make those decisions.”
    (Ben Brown, [14:30])

• Systems & Planning:
  • Both agree: Success requires a proactive “game plan” (meals, routines, responses to social triggers) rather than reacting on the fly.

    “Professional sports teams don’t go into the game like, ‘we’ll figure it out along the way.’ They have a game plan.”
    (Ben Brown, [15:40])

  • Tricks: Mike shares strategies like ordering Instacart groceries to the hotel room and intentionally reframing his self-identity (e.g., “I don’t drink… except on special occasions.”)
    (Mike Ciorrocco, [17:46])

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6. Diet Consistency Over Extremes

• Moving Past All-or-Nothing Mindsets:
  • Ben warns that “all-in or all-out” strategies trigger yo-yo cycles and guilt. Sustainable success happens “in the gray”—with permission for flexibility and enjoyment.

    “The problem is with [all or nothing] it lends itself to this kind of perpetual yo-yo dieting cycle...then something comes up...I feel like I blew it. I'm like, screw it, I'll just start again Monday.”
    (Ben Brown, [20:16])

  • Real weight loss is about overall caloric management, not dietary extremism.
• Finding Individual Approaches:
  • Emphasizes tailoring fasting, food choices, and routines to personal needs, not social media “diet religion.”

    “None of it is in and of itself the way, it's just figuring out what the way is for you.”
    (Ben Brown, [24:52])

  • Success comes from routines that are both consistent and enjoyable.

    “Why don’t we learn how to be consistent while enjoying foods you love, without eating like an asshole...”
    (Ben Brown, [24:52])

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7. Hot Topics: Fasting and GLP-1 Agonists

• Intermittent Fasting: Context Matters:
  • Fasting works if it fits your life and reduces total calories, but it’s not inherently superior.

    “Intermittent fasting...compared to literally any other diet that controls for calories, there's no difference.”
    (Ben Brown, [25:53])

  • Warns against allowing fasting or other nutrition ideologies to override family moments and fulfillment.
• GLP-1s (e.g., Ozempic, Wegovy): Short-Term Thinking, Long-Term Risk:
  • Expresses concern about widespread use for non-diabetics seeking rapid weight loss.

    “A significant portion of people that come off GLPs are gaining all of the weight back within...18 months...they're not just losing body fat, they're losing lean muscle tissue. And that is very, very problematic.”
    (Ben Brown, [27:43])

  • Most people on these drugs are not protecting muscle with adequate protein and strength training, setting themselves up for higher disease and rebound fat gain.

    “Their body's gonna do everything that it possibly can to put that weight back on, but not in a good way.”
    (Ben Brown, [29:25])

  • Warns of a coming public health issue due to this rebound effect and the inflammatory risk of lost lean muscle.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “More is caught than taught.”
  (Ben Brown, [03:37])

• “The number one accountability tool is walking the talk.”
  (Ben Brown, [02:37])

• On decision fatigue and environment design:

  “It's actually minimizing the number of situations that we put ourselves into, to keep the battery [willpower] as full as possible.”
  (Ben Brown, [14:30])

• Avoiding all-or-nothing thinking:

  “Learn to live in the gray by actually setting some realistic expectations... and helping them understand that weight loss...is all about caloric management.”
  (Ben Brown, [20:16])

• About GLP-1 risks:

  “What's concerning about that is...they're not eating enough protein, they're not cognizant of their nutrition...they're not strength training...they're not just losing fat, they're losing lean muscle tissue.”
  (Ben Brown, [27:43])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening and Age/Longevity Talk: [00:00]–[02:08]
• Leading by Example & Family Lessons: [02:08]–[04:09]
• Ben’s Professional Background through Rugby: [04:40]–[06:50]
• Pro Sports Nutrition: Reality vs. Hype: [06:50]–[09:33]
• Biohacking vs. Foundational Nutrition: [09:33]–[11:08]
• Willpower, Behavior, and Operating Systems: [11:41]–[17:09]
• Systems, Planning, and Travel Hacks: [17:46]–[19:22]
• Avoiding Extreme Dieting & Psychology: [20:16]–[24:52]
• On Fasting & Personalization: [24:52]–[27:12]
• Risks and Realities of GLP-1 Agonists: [27:43]–[31:58]
• Ben’s Contact & Closing: [33:07]–[34:00]

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Additional Resources

• Ben Brown Instagram: @bodysystemscoaching
• Podcast: “Smart Nutrition Made Simple Show”
• Website: bodysystems.com

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The Takeaway

This episode is a must-listen for high-performers seeking lasting health, energy, and self-mastery. It separates fads from fundamentals, emphasizing self-aware systems over willpower, the “gray zone” over extremes, and making yourself—and your environment—an aid, not a hindrance, to your best life.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome back to the what are you made up Show. It's your boy C. Rock here. I'm with Ben Brown from Body Systems. He's going to share what he's made of. Ben, what's happening?

[B]

Not much, man. Grateful to be here.

[A]

Yeah, man. Let's. Let's get into this thing. We're interested in finding out what ingredients have gone into making you who you are and to get you to do what you're doing. So I'll start with a question. What are you made of, Ben?

[B]

Well, if my wife would say twisted steel and sex appeal, are you sure she would say that I'm pretty. I'm. I'm damn confident about that. What would you say, man? A lot, man. Husband, father, business owner. Lots of life experiences and wisdom at this point. I'm 46 years old and excited for the next 46 years.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I just turned 49 last, what, Friday or Saturday? I can't even remember now. But I. I just don't even feel. Thank you. I don't even feel. It's. I feel. Still feel like I'm in my 20s. I'm goofy, immature at times, but my body, too. Like, I've been really taking care of myself and feel like, great. And I just. I can't wrap my head around. I'm close to. I'm in my 50th year. It's just wild.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, feel like that.

[B]

Crazy. I don't know if you have kids, But I have three kids, and they're 16, 14, and 10. And I feel it. I feel like I'm experiencing the aging process much more as a byproduct of just sort of like experiencing. Right. My kids growth and. And the things that they're going through now at their ages that I vividly recall through. Right. My. My oldest daughter, she just got her driver's license and she's starting to go to parties and stuff. And she's. She's so good and, like, so communicative with us. I was a little shithead, you know, rager. And so I'm. I'm so grateful for, you know, how she is and her personality and all of that stuff. But. Yeah, same with you as far as the aging process. Like, I'm. I'm doing everything I possibly can to. To look and feel as good as I can for as long as I can, as well as just be energetic and present, you know, for my family. But, you know, certainly some joint ailments. My vision seems to not be nearly as good as it used to. Be. But otherwise pretty, pretty tapped in.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And part of it's, man, you know, you work with some pretty high level people and organizations and you know, we have to be, I talk about this a lot. We have to be living demonstrations of what we're helping other people with. And if you think back in the day, there were people that were doing the things that we do and they weren't living demonstrations, but they still did it somehow. But people didn't look at it as much as they do now of, you know, like it's kind of misaligned, you know, you're not really representing what you're doing. You think about that a lot?

[B]

Yeah, no, very much. I mean, I posted, I, I posted the obligatory. I'm not, you know, a narcissistic or an egomaniac by any stretch, but you kind of got to do certain things on social media to market yourself. And you know, I, I stay in great shape because I firmly believe that I need to be a walking billboard for, you know, my business and, and what I promote. And you know, I posted just a obligatory shirtless selfie on social on Instagram yesterday and said the number one accountability tool is walking the talk. And I firmly believe that, you know, regardless of the profession, but being physically fit, healthy, lean and strong makes everything in your life better.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's huge. And then for your kids as well, right? Like, you know, you're trying to give your kids guidance. They got to learn lessons on their own as they're growing. Right. You got to let them give them enough leash to not hurt themselves, but learn. And then for your kids too, like, you know, if you want them being in shape and eating right and all that, you got to show them, show them, you know.

[B]

Yeah, what's this, what's the quote? Is more is caught than taught. Right. And I have, you know, I have this conversation on the daily with my clientele and write about it quite a lot. But it's again, we just have to be an example for our family, for our peers, for our community, for our business. You know, if we have employees, it's, they're going to do what you do. And if you're not leading by example, then you know, that's trickle down. That's problematic.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Now what do you, what do you do? How do you disseminate your information? Is it one on one? Is a group? Like, how do you disseminate?

[B]

So we have both one virtual one on one and group coaching. We have a nutrition fitness coaching business, but we're Largely online. I told you earlier. I'm based here in Scottsdale, Phoenix area. And so we do kind of a few meetups a year. I've got a lot of local clients and then I'll have clients that will come in and meet up. But otherwise we kind of do virtual coaching.

[A]

Okay, gotcha. And you work with some high level organizations and people. How did that all start? Because obviously it's not just right out of the gate like to get to the level that you've gotten to. But how did that catalyze working with some of the Arizona Diamondbacks and the Warriors?

[B]

Yeah, I think probably similar to your career trajectory in terms of just network and opportunities that come from meeting and knowing and providing value for the right people. But you know, my background is undergraduate degree from University of Arizona. I played rugby for U of A. I moved up to Phoenix for graduate school at Arizona State University. Continued to play rugby at a high level men's club for years. And you know, one of the connections that I had through rugby, I've had just, man, a number of wild and incredible connections and network through, through the rugby community. Cause it's a relatively small community in the US and frankly through the world. But you know, one of those connections ended up being the wife of one of my old coaches was the head physio for the warriors. And so she brought me on as a nutrition and supplement consultant for them. Similarly, you know, one of our mutual acquaintance through the strength and conditioning community was head strength coach, is head still head strength coach for the Arizona Diamondbacks. Was able to do some stuff with them and you know, working with different clients through the years who own companies and big organizations and it's like starting to run some corporate wellness programs for their companies. And you know, that's the way the world works. It's certainly who you know just as much as what you know.

[A]

Yeah. And then when you scored into I say scored because it's like a big opportunity to work with a professional athlete or organization. Did you have to go through a phase where you're like, is the stuff I know like on this level, like these are professional athletes, right. There's only a few of them in the world. Like did you have to go through a little phase like that and get.

[B]

Yourself in terms of like the imposter syndrome?

[A]

Yeah, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, dude.

[B]

I've continued to go through that, I think in some capacity every day. But what's wild about professional sports, anyone that's worked in professional sports is you kind of put all of these organizations and individuals on pedestals. And the reality at the end of the day is the vast majority of them are not doing anything that is so above and beyond what we're doing with general population. And in many instances, some of the stuff they're doing is so old school and outdated. And pretty quickly you realize, okay, I was worried for no reason. And of course I have the tools and the education and the experience and the ability to make a big difference here.

[A]

Yeah. Do you remember Chip Kelly went to the Eagles and they made a big deal about how he was focused on nutrition and sport performance stuff. Yeah, yeah. It was like the first time, I guess he really got into that. And then they had ran an up tip up tempo offense and they were all. Everybody was questioning whether they could keep up for a whole grueling season of that and all that. And I've remembered it just like made so much sense to me and I couldn't believe they were receiving so much pushback when there's millions of dollars on the line and the, the athletes like a racehorse, they're an asset.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

So I was just like blown away by the pushback.

[B]

Oh, it's absolutely crazy. It's. And you know what else is crazy is just all of the hoops that you have to jump through. I mean, I think this is, this is professional sports in general, and especially like NBA. All this money on the line and you're going through the agent and then the physios and then the gm and I get it, but they really make it much more challenging than it needs to be in every capacity. And I think that nutrition, adequate nutrition and blood work and sort of the stuff that's more recognized now, health optimization practices are, is, is the number one kind of thing that could make such a significant difference for athletes for their career, for their longevity and what you'll see. I mean, I think LeBron James is a pretty good example of someone who's dumping millions of dollars, you know, maybe a million dollars a year into his body and look how long he's played, how well he's played. I think it's a perfect example. But, you know, by that same token is. Well, not every player, of course, is doing that, but the organization should absolutely be rallying around how to keep our, our players healthy long term. Listen, dude, it's this machine, you know, and especially like in the NFL as an example, there's churning through players. It's, it's, it's, it's all about the money.

[A]

Yeah. And nutrition, like there's okay, so we have biohacking longevity going on right now, like big time, right? And everybody's marketing it. And some people don't know what they're talking. They're good marketers and plenty, all that kind of stuff going on. Right? But, but at the end of the day, the nutrition part, you can do all the peptides that you want to do. You could do all the different things you want to do, hacking wise. But if you don't have your nutrition, I mean, it is, it, it's game over. Like, I, I've. I've done this myself over and over again. I tried all these other things and still ate pizza and a lot of bread. I'm Italian. I love pasta, you know, And I'm like, damn, man, I'm getting older now and I can't get rid of this, like, this little part of here. But then I'd start dialing it in, and then it's like, oh, it's that easy, you know? But nutrition, I mean, you can't get away from good nutrition.

[B]

You can't. And you, you hit the nail on the head there. But it's like we are just wasting our time and energy and money on trying to optimize our health through all of these peptide stacks and hormone therapy and biohacking when we're, you know, building this on a. A house of cards in terms of poor lifestyle factors, poor nutrition behaviors, improper strength training technique and strategy. Especially as we get older and we talk about guys over 40, you know, that's a lot of the population that I deal with. We're trying to still do shit that we did when we're 25. Our hormones are, are not, you know, our recovery isn't where it used to be. Again, hormones aren't where they used to be. And, you know, we're trying to band aid stuff with peptides, and it's, it's, you know, it's like pissing in the wind.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I've, I've done some different things and seen amazing results, but I have to be on point with my nutrition. Like, it's just ridiculous. Now, I want to talk about willpower because I've read, I've been reading some things about, like, things that are affecting people's willpower, and there's, there's hacks that you can actually increase your willpower. And I can't remember off the top of my head right now, what are some of the things that cause people to have weak willpower. But do you look into that at all studied that like people's ability to stay away from bread as much as possible, you know.

[B]

No, it's a good question. It's a really good question. And, and you know what? Candidly, Mike, I think that, I think that it's a common misconception in guys like us, you know, a lot of hard charging men and women, to be fair, and we feel like we should be able to kind of do the things like we, we know what to do. I use that in air quotes. We quote, unquote, know what do. Right? It's not rocket science, right? We know I need to eat cleaner, eat more protein. We're, you know, it's, we're indoctrinated now with eat more protein, stick with, you know, more veggies and, and you know, whole grains and remove the processed food, remove the alcohol, fine. It's all plain and simple, right? But then we should, I should just be able to do this and I should be able to kind of leverage my willpower and discipline and self control to be able to do that. And you know, one of the way that we kind of approach this, through our coaching program, what we call it, we call it our Prime Fit operating system or Prime Fit os. There's three fundamental components. One is the science of data collection. Like we want to be able to have data to make informed decisions, right? Data around our weight, our calorie intake, maybe our sleep quality, our movement output, maybe volume of training in the gym, maybe blood work markers, right? Got all these objective metrics. The second is the psychology of behavior change. And it fundamentally is understanding, Mike, that a lot of the reason we have a hard time making changes is not that we don't know what to do, it's what's going on between the ears. And we're setting unrealistic expectations for ourselves of what we think we need to do. And then, and then the third component is what we call the art of coaching. This is me working directly with you, Mike, so that I can get a comprehensive understanding of what your lifestyle looks like. Because my life, your life, whomever's listening to this are going to look very different. Now we're all busy, right? We all have responsibilities, we all have stressors, be it physical, financial, family, you know, whatever, you know, aging parents, time of the year, you name it. There's a myriad of things at play, but that's where it's so important to come up with sort of the appropriate roadmap that's right for you. And when it comes to willpower, one of the things that we make a big mistake on, as I alluded to, is sort of assuming that we should be leveraging willpower to be successful. And the reality based on the research is we actually all have sort of similar amounts of willpower if we think about it as a battery. Right. There's a number of things that can drain that willpower battery. And ultimately what it comes down to is the number of decisions that we have to make on a daily basis. Right. The more times I have to keep my hand out of the proverbial cookie jar, Right. And make a decision to actually not grab a cookie or a slice of pizza or a beer or a soda or a handful of chips or whatever it is, the more I start to fatigue or drain that battery. And so what we know very clearly when it comes to willpower and self control is it's actually minimizing the number of situations that we put ourselves into to keep the battery as full as possible. And so people that are most successful, it's not that they have more willpower, they just simply limit the, the circumstances and situations where they have to make those types of decisions. Does that make sense?

[A]

100. Because it works for me when I'm not at the house and having nothing going on and you know, then I'm like, yeah, I want something crunchy or salty or sweet or something, you know, and. But if I'm, if I'm on the go.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's easier not to have those things. I don't have to make the decision. It's not available.

[B]

You don't even think about it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And then sometimes, sometimes I go through the day and I'm like, damn, I didn't really eat much today. That's another problem. But nonetheless, it's better to go through the day and not be snacking on garbage and processed food and things like that and then get some protein and a good dinner at the end, you know?

[B]

Yeah. And so one of the ways that we help clients and, and for your listeners, one of the ways to consider setting yourself up for success is like having a game plan in place. Right. Like professional sports teams, they don't go into the game like, we'll figure it out along the way. They've have a game plan that they've practiced, that they've reviewed film. They know their behaviors, they know their jobs, they know the responsibilities, they know what the other team's going to do under certain circumstances. And it very much is the same in our day to day if we want to be successful. If I'm going On a business trip, where am I going? Where am I staying? Where's the closest gym? What am I eating? Who am I surrounding myself with? What am I going to be challenged with? What are the, what are the limiting, limiting factors or the obstacles that I've had to overcome in the past. Right. And by coming up with a comprehensive plan around all of that automatically, I can put myself in a situation where now I don't need to navigate those decisions in the moment. I already have kind of that, that game plan. I've already prepared snacks. I already know where I'm going to eat. I already have an idea what I'm making eat. I know what I'm going to say to Joe when he, you know, puts another drink cocktail in my face, right? Am I drinking? Am I not drinking? And, and that fundamentally is part of that operating system that we help clients build and, and strongly encourage everyone to have as part of their day to day so that they can maintain high levels of willpower for all intents and purposes.

[A]

Yeah, I mean I, you know, I, I stopped drinking and I'll have a drink once in a while, but I mean I stopped drinking like just on a weekly basis. Whatever. I used to do one to three drinks a week or there, but like I just stopped. And now it's like on a special occasion I'll have a glass of wine or something like that and then I can stop another three, three months. Right. But the thing is, is that it's intentional, like I said, like you said. So I'll know I don't drink now when I say this to myself, I don't drink. That cleans me up until the special occasion comes up. And then I'll say, okay, it's a special occasion. I'll have a glass of wine. But the other thing is when I travel, I'll instacart food to my room.

[B]

Brilliant.

[A]

Like vegetable vegetables like carrots or celery or something. And then some fruit and then some protein eggs, hard boiled eggs. Like it's so easy to just order some hard boiled eggs ahead of time.

[B]

It's never been easier to make healthy food choices and you know, like we can even. The airport used to be a nightmare. Now like the airport shops have all kinds of good stuff. They've got string cheese and Greek yogurt and hard boiled eggs and protein shakes and beef jerky and beef sticks and.

[A]

Healthier American Express lounge where you can go up and they have really good the, on the buffet there too. But you could just eat protein and a vegetable.

[B]

It's it, man, you know, and you can get in and you can order and we do it all the time. We order instacart for, you know, like literally the plane will land, we'll find the, where we're staying. Grocery store, Instacart food over. You can look at menus online. You can order a, a grilled chicken or steak and some steamed vegetables, you know, rice or potato, literally anywhere. Ask for no oil, ask for no butter. Get poached eggs. Just drink sparkling water, lemon and lime. Avoid the alcohol. It's almost in many cases for some of the guys I work with, it's almost easier. Like you said, like when they're on the road and they're not subjected to like all the kids, leftover chicken fingers and pizza scraps and snacks and you know, the wife wants to go out for ice cream or have a glass of wine on Friday night and they're going to get up and train early on Saturday. And so yeah, it's just, it's great, it's great that we have so much, such easy access. And what that basically suggests is there's really no excuses for why people can't do it now.

[A]

No. And the other little trick I use is going into the holidays before Thanksgiving, I decide I'm going to lose, I'm going to lose pounds, healthy, I'm going to lose pounds through the holidays. So when January comes, I'm going to be lighter than before Thanksgiving. And last few years I've been doing that and I've been losing 4, 5, 6 pounds going through the holidays. That's a win, man.

[B]

That's a huge win. Most, I mean, most of the conversations we have is maintaining through the holidays in and of itself is a wind and it certainly is for most people.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But you, like, I still had stuff, but I was just strict. Besides the maybe one, one dinner for Thanksgiving and one dinner for, for Christmas. Right. And then, and then everything else, I was, I was strict and it worked. Now you talk a lot about not having extreme diets I saw somewhere. So how do you, how do you lay that out for people where they can still have some pizza or still have some wine or something? Like, what's the, the.

[B]

Well, yeah, so, so it really piggybacks off of sort of setting realistic expectations and not relying on willpower and, you know, tapping into that behavioral psychology is what a lot of us, especially, you know, hard charging business owners, we, we have this overt kind of all or nothing mindset. Right. I don't know if that's You. It's certainly been me and many, many times throughout my life, but it's sort of like either I'm all in or I'm all out. And I think a lot of people have this with nutrition, A lot of people have it with alcohol. It's like, either I'm raging or I'm just like, I'm completely clean and I'm avoiding everything. Gluten, sugar, dairy, whatever. I'm doing whole 30 or maybe doing 75 hard or keto or carnivore or something like that. And again, in line with behavioral psychology is this is a very dogmatic and what we call dichotomous line of thinking in that dichotomy means, you know, black or white, all or nothing. The problem is with that is it lends itself to this kind of perpetual yo yo dieting, if you will, for lack of a better term, cycle. Well, do really great, right? I'm quote, unquote, I'm doing good, I'm a couple weeks in, I'm cranking, and then something comes up. You know, I go on a trip or it's a boys night or whatever. I want to just enjoy some pizza and wings with the family. And I feel like I blew it. And I'm like, screw it, you know, I already ate this, that drink that I'll just start again Monday. Which ends up being, you know, months later. And so, first and foremost is giving people permission to not embrace that mindset and to learn to live in the gray by actually setting some realistic expectations and helping them understand that weight loss, you know, and body composition change is all about caloric management. Now, obviously, food quality matters, portion sizes matter, nutrients matter, but calories really matter most. And so, with that said, if I know that I can, you know, maintain a 2,000 or 2,500 calorie diet and still have a slice of pizza here and there, still have a couple cocktails, still have a couple desserts, and still maintain my 2,500 calories. I'm going to be a lot more likely to be consistent with that than if I'm trying to intentionally white knuckle it and use willpower and avoid everything, Mike. Right, because at some point I'm going to crash and burn, and then I'm likely to go and sway way too far the other, other direction.

[A]

Or beat yourself up, right? Not give yourself grace and feel like crap.

[B]

You know, the guilt, the shame, the regret, the unnecessary, you know, guilt around all of that stuff. And so that's kind of what's painted on the walls of media. You know, when we scroll through and, and again, what's indoctrinated into us is sort of like it has to be this overly complex, like you have to intermittent fast or you have to completely eliminate all of these things or you have to go keto or carnivore and it's, it becomes this religion. And that's not how the human body or the metabolism actually functions. We're actually a very flexible, malleable, adaptive mechanism to the degree that we can actually create quite a lot of benefit by going periods of lower carb of higher carb of lower fat of higher fat, of fueling ourselves effectively around our workouts, of doing, you know, calorie cycling, of doing some intermittent fasting. But none of it is in and of itself the way, it's just figuring out what the way is for you. And at the end of the day the, the, the, the, the recurring through line or theme is like you want to lose weight, you got to create a calorie deficit and that's going to come from being consistent. So why don't we learn how to be consistent while enjoying foods you, you, you want to, you know, you, you love without eating like an asshole and learning to enjoy healthier, more nutritious, high volume protein, you know, protein dense foods along the way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's huge. And you mentioned fasting and some people online, they're talking about these four five, three, four five day fasts and all this and the benefits of that. But people don't realize how much muscle you can lose during those and the, and the setbacks that you could have from hitting, you know, getting all autophagy. Right, like that's a benefit of fasting. So what are your thoughts on fasting? Whether it's like, you know, just daily or maybe one 24 hour fast a week or maybe doing a three thing, a three day thing like quarterly. Like what are your thoughts on that? I know you say it's different for each person what they want to do, but like what are your thoughts?

[B]

Yeah, I mean this, you know, my answer for everything is that depends because it's very contextual. I think that it can have a tremendous benefit at the end of the day. The, you know, the biggest consideration as, as far as I'm concerned and in my opinion is it should be considered a tool for weight loss and body composition change because it helps you manage your calorie intake and if you can leverage it in a realistic way to manage your calories. In other words, if I only eat between 12pm and 8, 8, 8pm Right. If I only have an 8 hour eating window and I, that works for me and I'm not likely to overeat in those periods, you know, during that period of time. And therefore it can help me not snack after 8pm Which I normally would do, or do the obligatory Starbucks and, you know, muffin first thing in the morning. And so automatically I'm weeding out, you know, maybe a thousand calories of junk. Well, that's great. That could work really well for me.

[A]

So.

[B]

But intermittent fasting in that capacity compared to literally any other diet that controls for calories, there's no difference. So, so let's not pretend that there's any advantage to intermittent fasting from a dietary standpoint outside of if it just works well for you. Right. So that's, I think that's really important for people to consider because that's the majority of the research that we have on it, speaking to like the longevity and the autophag and all of that kind of stuff. Perhaps there's, there's a benefit there to doing, you know, a 24 hour fast once a week or to doing extended fasts. Of course we need to be concerned about lean muscle tissue, but I can't speak to the value there. The most important thing that I've experienced is that, same as the example I gave with the, the black or white or all or nothing thinking, people get too lost in the ideology around, they have to do these extended fasts or, or it needs to be a religion for them and then they end up missing out on things that they want. For example, like some days I'll fast, but like Saturday or Sunday mornings I want to enjoy breakfast with my family.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like I'm not willing to make those compromises or sit at the table and watch them eat and be like, dad, why are you not eating? It's like, that's not worth it for me.

[A]

Yeah, well, and I do that too. And. But I make sure my wife makes protein pancakes instead of regular Bisquick or whatever. Always Kodak or whatever it's called.

[B]

Kodiak.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing I want to touch on as we wind down here is GLP1s and this, this craze with what's going on now, whether you take it fully or microdose or whatever. Have you gotten into any of that and studied it or worked with it?

[B]

I have, I have. Personally, no, not in terms of like utilized it, but a lot of clients, a lot of peers, I'VE and I have pretty strong thought process on the fact that I think a lot of people are getting themselves in really big, really a lot of trouble with how we're leveraging GLPs for short term weight loss. And I say short term weight loss because the research that has recently come out is pretty scary in terms of the rate of weight regain. In other words, I think we're seeing, you know, the, a significant portion of people that come off GLPs are gaining all of the weight back within the first, say 18 months, within the first year to 18 months to two years. Most of those people are gaining their weight back. And what's concerning about that is if you understand human metabolism and we understand typically the way people lose weight, the vast majority of people that are leveraging GLPs in addition to just the general population, Mike, they're not eating enough protein, they're not cognizant of their nutrition like we talked about as a fundamental pillar. They're not strength training consistently. And so when they incorporate these GLPs and they start losing this weight, they're not just losing body fat, they're losing lean muscle tissue. And that is very, very problematic. It's problematic towards long term health, longevity, quality of life, overall strength, metabolic health.

[A]

Disease prevention, bone health, does it take.

[B]

Away from the calcium? Bone health, the list goes on and on and on. And so if we, if one, that, that in and of itself is not good because muscle is our, our biggest, most metabolically active organization. And the more muscle we have, within reason, you know, the better. Two is that when people go off, and I'm, I'm very concerned that there's going to be this massive rebound effect at play. You know, human evolution and the human metabolism and physiology is way smarter than we think we are. And so I think for a lot of people, they're gonna come off the drugs and their body's gonna do everything that it possibly can to put that weight back on, but not in a good way. So again, if they're, if they're not eating enough protein, if they're not strength training, if they're not managing their lifestyle, then all that weight that they lost, they're gonna gain back as body fat. So maybe they lost, you know, let's just say they lost 30 pounds, maybe 20 of it was body fat, maybe 10 of it was muscle mass. Right? Well, they're just going to gain 30 pounds back of body fat. I mean, maybe they'll gain a little bit of muscle mass back. But if they're not, what Are they.

[A]

Losing in that metabolic rate with the muscles gone? Right, like that's what you're saying.

[B]

Their risk of disease goes up. Fat is also very metabolically active tissue, but not in a good way. It's very pro inflammatory. And so now we've exacerbated our disease risk, cardiovascular risk, you know, again, decreased potentially quality of life and longevity. I, I just, I'm, I'm, I'm afraid for what's going to happen over the next few years.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Well, and you gotta, I guess you gotta weigh it because there's diabetes can use, you know, go down when people use it effectively and do it the right way under guidance.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm not talking about. So that's super fair, man. And I'm not talking about diabetics using it. I'm talking about, let's be honest, dude, you know, at least 25 of the population has, is using GLPs and I know plenty of people that are using GLPs that are not type 2 diabetics or, or morbidly obese.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. So I'm automatically eliminating that side of the population. And don't get me wrong, I'm a fan for sure. I'm just, you know, being someone who appreciates evidence and research and anecdotally has worked with people for 20 years, you know, in the trenches if you will, and seen how the metabolism responds to aggressive dieting and is starting to see how people are starting to gain weight back when they go off. Coupled with now the research. Research. I, yeah, I think it's going to be a big problem.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I, I agree, man. I've seen it too. People start to look sick, they lose so much weight and they're not even putting them. Yeah. One of the things that I'm always conscious of is how much protein I'm eating. The workouts, sleep, plenty of water and you know, if I'd use any peptides or anything like that, I make sure that it's, you know, designed for what, what I have, like what I'm, what I'm looking at here and I work with professionals. I don't just go off of whatever people are saying on the, on the Internet. So Ben, as we're winding down, where, where can people go deeper with you to learn more?

[B]

Yeah, so I'm pretty active on social media and I promise it's more than just social shirtless selfies. It's actually some, some pretty good substance in there. So at Body Systems Coaching is my ig, I have a podcast as well. It's called the Smart Nutrition Made simple show so people can check that out. That's all things health, nutrition, fitness, lifestyle mindset. And yeah, I'm sure you'll have the obligatory links in the in the show notes. Sure.

[A]

For sure. Well look dude, I appreciate you I look forward to building with you in some form or fashion. I appreciate you sharing on the show here. And yeah people folks go check out bodysystems.com body systems coaching shirtless pictures on there for the women and I'm sure some, some men.

[B]

How many male comments I get?

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure it's they're out there good for them. And yeah and folks make sure you hit the subscribe follow button at the top of your favorite podcast platform and keep coming back until next time. Boy C Rock signing off with Ben Brown on the what he made up show be that one.