← What Are You Made Of?
What Are You Made Of?
Deeper Love Starts with Deeper Truth: Ken Page, LCSW on Healing, Faith and Authenticity
00:32:35
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to the what are you made of Show. It's your boy C Rock here, and we are with Kenneth Page. He's going to share what he's made of today. Thank you all for joining us. I hope you learned something from this episode that you can implement in your life and make your life better. Kenneth, welcome to the show.
- [00:14]
B
I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me, Mike.
- [00:17]
A
Yeah, man. It's. Again, it's my pleasure to have you. And, you know, we're going to be talking about what you're doing and, you know, I know you're getting ready to launch something soon and wrote a book. You have a great podcast, and I think you're impacting the world in a great way and. But we'll talk more about that. But before we do, we start the show with the same question every time. And that is, what are you made of?
- [00:37]
B
Yeah, you know, that's a great question. And I thought about it a bunch. I think I'm made of my history, my values, my capacity to love. Those would be the things that I would say. So I am a kid of two Holocaust survivors. Our daughter. So we got genocide there. My daughter, who I adopted from Cambodia, she's a child of genocide. So human dignity and values and protection are like, they're part of what I am made of. That's one piece. I would say my relationship to my higher power, to God, is also what I'm made of. My beliefs, which are that the parts of ourselves we end up most insecure about reveal our deepest spiritual gifts. That's an amazing thing. The parts we try to hide are actually where our power and our beauty lie. So I'm made of that belief. And I would say I'm made of love, too, because my family is really, really important to me.
- [01:47]
A
Love it. Great answer. Great answer. Well, since you said insecurities and that's where it identifies our spiritual power, I think you said. Right. So what were some of the ones that really like that you have identified in any work that you've done on yourself?
- [02:01]
B
Yeah. Well, so for me, growing up a gay kid, Holocaust survivor, parents, I'm 69 years old. So, like, I grew up in, you know, the 50s and the 60s. So these qualities of sensitivity, vulnerability, attraction to my same sex, these were not considered qualities that were. I mean, they were very shameful qualities. So I built a whole wall of protection around the things I thought I should be ashamed of. Also, I'm a truth teller, and that gets me into trouble all the time. That was something I was also ashamed of. My journey has been to learn to embrace those very things, you know, these qualities of sensitivity and intensity and truth telling that I have that I was embarrassed about my whole life. It turns out when I became a therapist, those were the qualities my clients wanted the most from me. So I was spectacularly unsuccessful at finding love for decades. Until the parts of myself I thought I should hide, I started leading with those parts of myself. And that's when everything changed. And I discovered this amazing thing, that the things we're most insecure about are our feelings of need for love, our feelings of intensity, truth telling, deep sensitivity. Like some of us feel when things are wrong in an environment more than other people. Like, you could be sitting at a table with five people and everyone is fine, and you're like, oh, something is not right here. Someone had their feelings hurt or why is nobody being really honest? Some of us feel that and other people don't feel it. I thought that was something really embarrassing and wrong. Then I learned it was my superpower.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So this empath, right?
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A
Like an empath.
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B
An empath, yeah. Yeah. So it's like, what did the world teach you? You shouldn't show. How might that be your superpower? And the way we, and I call these parts of ourselves our core gifts. And when we build our life around hiding them, nothing works. When we build our life around leading with them. Love comes, mission comes, power comes. And the two questions that I tell people that, like you can ask yourself in your day to day life to figure this out, are what hurts my heart and what fills my heart. You just ask yourself that and instead of doubting or second guessing, you think, well, what if that's my gift? That that hurt me because I felt it even if other people didn't. What if that's my gift? That I feel a sense of joy or connectedness that makes me feel different. But it's how I love. When we start doing that, things change. And that's the heart and soul of everything I teach.
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A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm aligned with that. You know, authenticity to me, vibes so high and.
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B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you live that way. That's what you. That's your mission.
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A
Yeah, for sure. And, you know, also I have core values myself. One of them is vibes. Matter and emotions are contagious. And understanding that, you know, not only the people that you're around and they gotta. You gotta pay attention to that. Their. Their emotions are contagious, but also, what emotions are you bringing to the room Right. Like, what are you. How are you impacting that. That. That container and totally being taken responsibility for that, you know, is huge. Now, I got a question for you because. Okay, so your parents were Holocaust survivors or grandparents?
- [05:52]
B
Parents and grandparents, actually.
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A
Grandparents. Okay. Did you grow up in a practicing Jewish household?
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B
Well, they were pretty, like, unorthodox. Like, I remember my dad saying to me and my sister when we were, like, 8 years old, hey, kids, you want to go to Hebrew school or you want to keep playing? That's how he did it. Because he came from a very Orthodox background. And in fact, his. His brother, his half brother was considered like, a saint, like what's called a gaon, like, a great soul. And like, if you're, like, growing up as, like, a bad boy, like, typical kid, and your brother's a saint, that's, like, not good.
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A
Right?
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B
So, you know, he. He grew up, you know, and then what he experienced with the Holocaust, like, God was not a big thing of his. Although when he was close to passing, we would lie down together and talk about what happens after you die. We spent many, many hours just, you know, he became more spiritual when he got older.
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A
Yeah. How about you? Growing up in, you know, in the environment that you did and all that? Like, what was your relationship like with God and your faith?
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B
Well, you know, I was. I was into yoga and meditation even when I. Even, like before the Beatles were, like. I remember dragging my mom around saying, there's gotta be a book on yoga. There' gotta be a book on yoga. I mean, I'm 69 years old, so that was a long time ago, and there were hardly any books on yoga, but I felt very drawn to that. And I was meditating. I mean, I've been a really serious meditator since I was about 12 with, like, you know, a big break for drug, sex and rock and roll in the middle there, but then, you know, back to it for a good 40 years. And so my relationship with God and spirituality is deeply, deeply important to me. And it's, you know, it's a very free one. It's not bound by typical religious traditions, because religious traditions have hurt me a lot. But it's in deep respect for all traditions, especially the ones that allow themselves to be inclusive.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But my relationship with my higher power is everything.
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A
Yeah. Yeah, me too, man.
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B
Really?
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A
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
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B
How about for you?
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A
Well, you know, I talk to God not just every day, but all day, every day. I pray. When things happen, I thank him. You know, not just good things, like, I. I Get I. I'm really weird when it comes to things that are adversity or hard, you know, situations, because I know that if I keep going and I will, that everything always works out for me. I feel like most people only are grateful when things are going well, but I'm grateful when things are tough because it's building me and I know what it's doing to me after things I've been through. So. For sure. And I read the Bible every day. I'm actually in Exodus right now. I've just finished Genesis. I read a chapter a day of the Bible, Old Testament, New Testament, and deeply study. And I actually use AI now to study the Bible because. And talking to AI every day about business relationships and different things and brainstorming things, it has a good feel for what I'm dealing with every day. And it takes the. The chapter sometimes that, you know, you'd read it and you really wouldn't be able to pick some of these things up practically. And it just puts it in a way that you can actually apply it and understand what's going on right now. And so I'm. I've been doing this for the last year and it's really changed my life. And so. But yeah, now you mentioned religion has hurt you, as, you know, in the past and all that. What ways have you experienced that it, you know, hurt you?
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B
Well, this is a wild thing. I have taught about spirituality, meditation for decades. Big groups of people, lots of people. I teach to a universal audience. I'm an out gay man who teaches to a universal audience about love and about intimacy and about finding love. That was my book, Deeper Dating, my podcast, the Deeper Dating Podcast, and this new project called Deeper for Good that I'll tell you about in a minute that I'm super excited about. But I will say this to this day, there is a little part of me that still has to battle against the belief that I cannot be loved for how I love that I cannot be close to God or higher power because I'm gay. You know, that's burned into you by culture and by religion. So that's a deep way that there has been trauma there. And for people who come from more fundamentalist backgrounds in any religion who are gay, that's the suicide rate, that's the despair, that's the alienation. It's a really rough thing to get over that.
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A
Yeah, yeah, no, I can imagine. And for me, in the studies and experience that I've had, it's all about relationship for me, you know, when I'm When I'm studying what Jesus said and how he, you know, taught and served, he was a, he was a king that came to serve. And so for me, it's like, how can I be an unconditional, loving person and serve people? No matter what level I get to, how can I serve more?
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B
And, and that is beautiful.
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A
And that's, that's, that's the truth, though. That's what happened. And then what happens is human beings who are flawed at. And they want power and they want this and that, they. They start adding things to it and then judging people.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And that's not what Jesus did, right?
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B
No, that's totally true. And that's the wisdom. And I'm, you know, that's very heartwarming to hear you say.
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A
Yeah, well, thank you. And, and I, I just, it's made me feel more full and fulfilled and, and you know, because look, at the end of the day, like, let's just say that some people believe that homosexuality is a sin. Well, guess what? If they think that, then what about the things that they're doing that are sins? And why are they so focused on other people's things that they're doing instead of worrying about themselves?
- [11:54]
B
Yeah, it's very, you know, it's very particular. The things that people pick out, like, for example, wearing the color purple, I think is a profound sin in the Old Testament. Ever saying a curse to your parents? There are things that you can be killed for that no one mentions and everyone does these days. So, yes, absolutely. There is this structure that comes from organized religion and we have to be careful what's the living, healthy, loving spirituality and what's oppressive. And all of us have to answer that ourselves.
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A
Yeah. Because Jesus didn't come to oppress. He came to free people. And I know your religion background is more based on the Old Testament and then the yoga is totally different. Well, not totally different, but it's a different lens. But just from my perspective of, you know, my studies and what have you. And then I wanted to ask you another question. The you you mentioned woke prior to us getting on the recording and, and how that's been powerful for you. But let me ask you a question. Do you think that, and I don't know the answer to this. I'm just asking the question because I'm curious. Do you think that people that are in certain demographics, or whatever you want to call it, groups bring more negative attention on themselves by bringing it up more often? That in any way, whether it's. Or do you think that it's better to bring it up because you need to bring attention to the fact that things people are not getting treated the right way out of respect and equally and what have you. Because it seems like whatever you focus attention on, this isn't just this topic, but like I just from my studies and performance and understanding how things work in quantum physics and neuroscience, is that when you focus on something, it grows. Does that make sense?
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B
Well, yes, but when you ignore something, it grows. So there's no easy answer there. But my parents went back to Germany and Lithuania on a thank you mission. They found the descendants of the people who risked their lives to stand up for them and take care of them. And they went back to those descendants to thank them for saving their lives. Those people put their lives at risk. Those people stood up against injustice. If nobody does that, there is a good fight in this world and that good fight is toward human decency. Not speaking shuts that down. How you speak is a really important thing. But if I see my brother or my sister, if I see families being separated and children caged, who am I and what am I made of if I don't speak up? It's that simple to me.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
And we want to do it in ways that are not divisive. But in all honesty, when, for example, in Florida, you cannot mention the word gay in school. So if you're a kid with two gay parents, you're not allowed to talk about your parents when everyone else is. That's just wrong. That is prejudice. And prejudice is not okay. So you know, somebody said to me at a party, she said, oh God, I hate this woke stuff. And I looked at her and I said, if it wasn't for woke, I would not be a married man with children. As a gay man, I thank God for woke. So what is your debt?
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A
What is your definition of woke so that people understand? Because obviously I think there's some things that go around and people aren't really clear.
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B
Yeah, well, so woke came from. It was an African American like equal rights kind of term. And what it meant is that you're aware, your eyes are open to the danger of segregation, of slavery, of prejudice, of non equal rights. That's what woke means. Like you're awakened to the fact that there's some unfair stuff going on and you don't just accept it and be half asleep and say it's okay. That's the meaning of woke. It's been turned into a very bad thing largely by Christian nationalists and by other, you know, other people. That. That, you know, this thing of erasing the reality of slavery instead of owning that this is just a giant, horrible defacement in our culture. Like the Germans now and the Austrians admit. And they look at this and they work on what they. What they have done. That's not right. I have deep respect for that. So, you know, we need to be that too, as a country about slavery, not pretending it wasn't an issue. But all of that leads to. If I could talk about this new project that I'm.
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A
Yeah, let's go. Good side.
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B
I would love to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I created a whole body of work called Deeper Dating. And what that is. Because I was single for decades, and I had to become a student of my failures. I had to learn why I was not finding love. And what I learned, I turned into an entire approach based on psychological principles, spiritual principles, the basic principle. That is what we're told, like, maybe by our grandparents, like, just be yourself. But it's not so easy to just be yourself. But it is the answer. So wait a minute.
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A
I gotta talk about a couple things on this and then remember where we left off here. Number one. Number one, you can't be yourself if you don't know who you are. So I've spent over $300,000 and a lot of time and energy and attention on finding out who I am so that I can be myself. And that's the problem. Most people skip that part. So I want to say that. And number two, when you were saying that you couldn't find love, was it that you would. You would have situations where you would meet someone and you could see yourself and you'd catch feelings, so to speak, to that person, but you weren't getting it in return, or you weren't even catching the feeling yourself?
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B
I was catching feelings for the wrong people and running away from the right people.
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A
Okay, Okay. I wanted to clarify that. Yeah, okay.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of really deep research on that. And here's what it is, and this is what I've discovered. That to me, is a revelation. The degree to which you can't honor your core gifts is the degree to which you're going to be sexually and romantically attracted to people who are not good for you. The degree to which you learn to love those parts of yourself and embrace them and lead with them, your attractions are actually going to begin to change. That's what happened to me in my life. I stopped being attracted to people who weren't right for me, when I learned to honor my core gifts, my soul qualities, that changed everything. And it's a formula. And it's a formula we're not taught. Another way to look at that is that, like, we all have two circuitries of attraction in our being. We could be attracted to what I call attractions of deprivation. And we could be so attracted to people who we keep having to prove our worth to or try to teach them how to love us right, or, like, remind them of why we're valuable and they should be committed to us. Those are attractions of deprivation, and they feel like love, and they're sexy as hell, and they're white hot. When we get the person to love us momentarily the way we want it, we spend years chasing that. And it's a real circuitry. But we have another circuitry too, and it's what I call the circuitry of attractions of inspiration. And we have to cultivate that. Some people know it from the beginning, and they end up with their high school sweetheart. The rest of us have to learn it. And that is becoming attracted to someone. You have to be physically attracted for sure, but you're attracted to their goodness, their decency, their availability, their generosity, their qualities of inspiration. And until I learned how to say no to the attractions of deprivation and only choose attractions of inspiration, my romantic life just sucked. And it was when I learned to do that other thing that everything changed. And I met my husband, who I've been with for 17 years, and we built a family together. And he is a good man because I learned how to become attracted to goodness instead of just cockiness, arrogance, semi availability.
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A
Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Because, you know, when you're. When you're putting a. Putting an act on and wearing a mask, you attract the people that would be attracted to that, and that's not even truly you. So that once you've really identify who you are, start leaning in authentically, unapologetically, then you get the people that match that. So 100 sense. Yeah.
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B
It's like in nature, if you don't have a spine, you have to have an armor. Your spine is being who you are. If you don't have that, just like you're saying you have to put up an armor and then you'll be pushing love away.
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A
Yeah, yeah, 100%. Now, what's it like having a husband with two males? Right, because you have the. The book. I forget the author's name, but Men are for Mars, Women are from Venus. Right. And I have to figure this out when married 23 years to my wife, like, figure out, like, okay, how are women different? And how do I need to roll here and find out her love language and all these different key phrases that I've seen in books and what have you. But what have you found in your journey and the work that you're doing that is different? Like, with those kind of things.
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B
Big subject. Big, big, big, big, big subject. Well, here's the thing. You know, people talk about polarity a lot, right? Like, opposites attract. So a man and a woman would attract, but it's not as simple as just gender. Like, for example, Greg is a financial advisor and a tech guy. I'm like, Mr. Feelings. Like, I'm like, the feelings channel 247 feelings for him. He's great at listening to my feelings, but to get him to share a feeling takes a lot of work. He's really different than me. Those differences are challenging for both of us, but they're also exciting because we're different worlds. And Eros, attraction, it's a spark that needs to jump a gap. But the gap does not have to be man, woman. The gap is just two different beings. And in fact, the researchers now are not using the words masculine and feminine because those are related to your genitalia at birth. They're using the words instrumentality versus expressiveness. Like, who are the people who are focused on, like, all right, what needs to be done next? Or, like, that nitty gritty, which, like, Greg is that. And expressiveness. That's me. We, like, live on different planets. Like, my eyes glaze over when he talks to me about, like, you know, certain very practical things. And when I talk about feeling stuff again, he's great when it's about me or the family or the kids. But for himself, like, his eyes glaze over, he can't do it. So. So, yeah, polarity is a richer, more complex and less binary thing than we've been taught.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. And then. And then how about bringing up kids? And how's that. The challenges of that going for you and. And the wins that you're having. And by the way, how old. How old are you? Have one or two?
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B
No, we have three kids. Three kids. We have three kids.
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A
Okay.
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B
Yeah. Greg was married. Greg was married, and he had two daughters that he came to. Our relationship with, and those are now. Those daughters are now 30 and 35.
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A
Okay.
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B
And I came with one child who I adopted as a single dad from Cambodia, and Jesse is almost 25 now.
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A
Okay.
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B
And the kids have good relationships, and they're great kids.
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A
And how old was the. Was it a daughter from Cambodia?
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B
Yes.
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A
Yeah. How old was she when you adopted her?
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B
Well, well, Jess is transgender. So when I adopted Jess, Jess was David and a boy. Eight months old.
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A
Eight months old. Okay. Really young. Okay. Yeah.
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B
Really young. Really young, man. You've had, you've had all kinds of
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A
things to, to traverse and go through and figure out with this world that we're living in, you know?
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and the exciting thing is following your call, you know? And that was my call. That was my call. I wanted to become a dad. And I said to my parents, I said, you know, just because my sister is not married, she's happily single and I'm gay, like, does not mean you're not going to have grandkids. And I remember I was struggling a lot, like, how am I going to be able to do this as a single guy who doesn't make, you know, scads of money? I can't hire, like, a full time nanny. How am I crazy? Am I crazy doing this? And I went back and forth. My parents were very good about not pressuring me in any direction but one night. And my dad is a very powerful person. He survived a lot. And he's the kind of guy, when he says something, you. You listen. And we were going over the Brooklyn Bridge. We were high, high up, and, like, the city was sparkling. It was nighttime. And he finally said to me, ken, is this something you really want to do? And I said, yes. And he said, then you have to jump. And I knew he was right. And that was like, one of the moments I made my decision. After that, I had to have a period with God where I got an answer from God. And the answer was amazing. The answer was amazing. The answer was do this just because you want to. That's enough of a reason. You are a good human being. It's like you're in a jail cell and the keys to get out are inside the cell, but you're waiting for the jailer to let you out. Take the keys, get out. That's what you want to do. And that was like, you know. And that's when I. I contacted everyone. I said, I'm doing this. I'm going to be a dad.
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A
And you became a dad. Yeah. That's awesome.
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B
And just to share one other part of the story, my dad really liked Greg and really wanted us to get married. He said, the two of you fit together like an ass in a pail. That was his expression. And he got really sick. He was older and he was getting very close to passing, but. And he was pissed at me because I kept being afraid to get married. But finally we agreed to get married. I said yes to Greg, and my dad was going to wait till the wedding, but he couldn't make it. And on the last day of his life, the hospice nurses said, guys, he has one last wish. Are you going to give it to him or not? So that day, we brought in a minister, an interfaith minister, and we said our vows in front of him, and he passed while we set our vows, put the whole family around us.
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A
So how long ago was that?
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B
That was 10 years ago. Two days ago.
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A
Okay. Okay.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Wow.
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B
And all of that led to me creating this Deeper For Good, which is like. My mom passed. She was an activist, Art. She passed just. Just a few months ago. And I feel like this mission is. Is a gift from them in a way.
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A
Oh, yeah. You know, it's interesting that your parents. You lose a parent, it's how it sparks something in you, you know, that happened to me with. With my dad, my stepdad, he was. Became my father. Yeah, it was. It's a really powerful energy if you take it up on, you know, take up on it now. You also, besides the Deeper For Good, you have a book and I want you. I want to mention.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Do you mind grabbing that and hold it up for those to see it, in case you're interested.
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B
Yeah, let me do it without all of my, like, things falling off. I think I could do that.
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A
Take your time.
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B
Yeah. Deeper Dating, how to Drop the Games of Seduction and Discover the Power of Intimacy, which was an Amazon number one bestseller in that. In that arena. And it is about this more spiritual, conscious way to find love that I talked about a little bit. But so is my podcast with, you know, over 200 episodes, where I teach this kind of approach.
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A
Yeah, it's amazing. And you've had a lot of success with the podcast as well. I know it's doing very well. The top half percent globally ranked shows on Listen Notes. So that was great that you've gotten a lot of results from that because it means it's impacting people because otherwise they wouldn't listen. So.
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B
That is so true.
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A
Well, Ken, thanks so much for the work you're doing, man, and I appreciate you being here.
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B
Thank you. And so I'd love to tell you about Deeper For Good, though, because that is my latest.
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A
Yeah, yeah, finish talking about Deeper Good. Okay.
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B
So I've spent my life helping people find healthy love, but what's happening now in our country is that people are like. It's a lot of pain, a lot of chaos, a lot of polarization, a lot of loss of human dignity in what's happening now, and people really care about that. And what I have discovered and what I believe is the best, best way to find love and find community is doing things that you believe in that match your values with other people, shared experiences with other people. That's how I found my husband. That's what I teach. You know, in 40 years of being a therapist, that's how I've seen the most people find healthy love. Go to the places you care about. Yeah. Through. Through shared experiences with people who share your values. So I have now created Deeper for Good, which is an app and a program for single people to. Here's our tagline. Find your person, find your people, change the world.
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A
Nice.
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B
So this is a way for people to do good in the world, and in that context, we make it easy for them to match. It's like a combination of a dating app and volunteer work altogether. But there's all these ways that people can actually, like, do good in the world and then have all these other people who are doing good in the world, and they can meet and they can do things like have conversations and adventures online. We've got just amazing stuff that we're creating in this app, and it's like nothing else that exists, because apps are transactional. They help you find a match. They don't help you find intimacy. This has intimacy built in from the ground.
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A
Oh, wow.
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B
So. And we're launching in June, so if you just go to deeperforgood.com and join our waiting list, you'll get to hear about events in your area. So we're super. And you'll get to meet amazing people who care about the world, because that's what we need now.
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A
Yeah, I love it. That's awesome. And is your husband working on it with you since he's in tech?
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B
Oh, yeah. He. He's a major designer of the app. Yeah, we can do this.
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A
Yeah, Yeah. I. I listen. Well, he said financial advisor.
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B
You're good. Yeah.
- [31:52]
A
Well, Ken, thank you so much for being here, man. I appreciate it. Folks, go check out Ken's work, his podcast, his book, and also, by the way, deeper dating podcast.com, you can check that out. But also, where can they get the book? Is it on Amazon? It's best.
- [32:05]
B
Oh, it's ever for that. Yeah. Amazon everywhere. Yeah. So there's the book, Deeper Dating, there's Deeper Dating podcast And there's Deeper, our new program.
- [32:13]
A
And is that deeperforgood.com you said deeperforgood.com
- [32:16]
B
and then you'll get the app as soon as it comes out in a few weeks. Really?
- [32:20]
A
All right, folks, go check that out. Ken, again, thank you so much. Hang tight while I wrap this up, folks. That's this episode of the what do youo Made up show. It's your boy, C Rock, finding out what Ken Page is made of. Keep coming back. Hit that subscribe follow button at the top of your favorite podcast platform. And until next time, be that one.