A (2:06)

Yeah. Yeah. And where did you grow up?

B (2:08)

I'm from a little town in. In Maine called Madison.

A (2:11)

Wow. So it's not like you were right in Nashville growing Up around a scene and got the luxury of knowing people growing up in that space. You're from Maine, which is like Canada.

B (2:23)

Yeah, I'm about where I grew up. A couple hours away from Canada.

A (2:29)

Yeah.

B (2:30)

You know, 1200, 1300 miles away from Nashville, you know, and I was as far away from the music business as you could imagine, other than New York. And it was kind of interesting because when I first started out, I was in a mill town, you know, I mean, everybody, everybody, you know, their, their dream job was to get, either get in the mill, get into the, the electric company, you know, there was two or three big jobs that if you got into it, they would say, oh, my ship has sailed. I've got it made for the rest of my life. And it's like I didn't want any one of them, you know, I wanted to do music. And that was considered a pipe dream to most people.

A (3:09)

Yeah, yeah. And when did you start in music? How old were you?

B (3:14)

I, I started when I was like 8 years old. You know, my, my, my, my mother, we had an old beat up piano sitting in the, in the, in a, in a room and I'd go in and just pound on it, you know, and, and she saw that I had an interest in it, so she goes, well, if you're going to take an interest in it, we'll get it all fixed up. So we got new fells, new pads, new ivories, everything, you know, fix it up. Which back then was considerable. And then she started giving me lessons and it took me every week to a piano teacher and I just started loving it and growing and then I wound up doing it band in high school and just decided that's what I wanted to do.

A (4:02)

What kind of music did you resonate with early on?

B (4:06)

More on the pop rock side. Kind of like, you know, Credence Clearwater Revival, you know, you know, Eagles, you know, that type of thing. I was middle of the road. I didn't have the voice to do the Aerosmith and, and Journey, you know. You know, I didn't have a Steve Perry voice.

A (4:26)

Many people do, brother.

B (4:28)

Yeah, exactly. So, so it's like I, I was lucky enough to realize that I had to do what I could do. And I wasn't a country guy, even though I did appreciate people. I had friends of mine that would play, you know, the old Johnny Cash and all that, and, and it's like I'm going, no, that wasn't for me. But, but I, I could play anything and I'd sit in with a few people Every now and then that needed some help that would play extreme, extreme country, you know, and. And at the end of it, they'd say, you ought to join us. And, no, no, no, no. A night is good enough for me.

A (5:02)

Yeah.

B (5:02)

You know, but that's kind of how I grew up, you know, with a little bit of everything.

A (5:06)

Yeah. And then. And then as you were going through high school, did you end up going to college?

B (5:11)

I actually went to Berkeley, College of Music in Boston.

A (5:15)

Okay.

B (5:16)

But I only did it to improve upon a couple of things that I thought I lacked on, and that was basically improv. I didn't have that improvisational skill. So when people say, hey, it's yours, take it, I'd go, what am I going to do? You know? So I went to. Went to Burke to learn a little bit more on improv and learn some things. And I learned at Berkeley that I didn't want to go to Berkeley for four years because I did not want to be a teacher, and I did not want to do that. Even though there's a lot of people that go there that get into theater and writing and all this other stuff, I just kind of viewed it as I wanted to perform, and that wasn't what Berkeley was. So I just went there to kind of sharpen my skills, and then I moved on.

A (6:02)

Yeah. So, you know, improv. I never think about improv in the music side of things. You think about comedy, you think about skits.

B (6:10)

Right.

A (6:10)

Music. Yeah. There's improvisation. Because somebody. A lot of times, too, like, you'll see somebody out in public and they just pick up something and. Or they grab a guitar and they just start jamming or something.

B (6:20)

Right.

A (6:21)

And. Yeah, so then that. That was developed at school, though. You picked that up after that. Felt pretty good about it.

B (6:26)

I did. I did. I. I learned a lot there. And. And I was able to use some of the scales and. And different things that they taught me. And. And the. The interesting story was when I went to my improv, I had one class that was just basically improv. Everything else was theory and different other things. But so I sit down and I was classically trained. Beethoven, Brahms, you know, all that. That's what I learned. So I sit down and in this. In this little square room with an old upright piano, kind of like what I. What I learned on. And my improv teacher says, play me something. So I played him Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, and I nailed it. And I'm going, yes, I got it. And he looked at me, goes, okay. Just so nonchalantly. He put this book in front of me, and it was the big note for beginners on piano. And I looked at him. I'm going, that's the first book I ever had when I went to a piano teacher. And then he looked at me, goes, then you should know it. And he went on to teach me more on improv from that very first book that I ever picked up in my first piano lesson. And it was just amazing.

A (7:43)

What was the main lesson in that.

B (7:45)

As far as how to take these little notes that you think are just not important and use them in combination to create something that's expressive.

A (7:58)

So going back in that situation, when he would say, play me something, what would you do now?

B (8:02)

Now, I would. I would. I would do the same thing. I mean, I would play him that song, but if he passed me that I would look at him go, okay, let's. Let's dig in. You know, because then I knew. Then I'd know exactly what he was expecting. Yeah.

A (8:16)

And so from there, where did you go, like, next? Like, did you get. Did you. Like, how did you get to Nashville?

B (8:23)

How I got to Nashville was an interesting story. I had some friends of mine that I met actually, through my mother. My mother saw this songwriter that had. That had a local newspaper article written about him, and he was going to Nashville, you know, gonna go to Nashville and pitch his material. So I met. So my mother told me about them, and I didn't know him, so I introduced myself to them. And then after we got to know each other, they didn't have really good transportation. They said, why don't you take us to Nashville? You got good transportation, and, you know, we'll see what we can get. And my comment to them was, why would I want to go to Nashville? It's a hick town. It's country, and that's not what I do. And they talked me into going. I drove down, and as I'm driving up to Nashville, I see, whoa, it's a small Boston, you know, it's concrete and steel like any other city. The only difference is you had Music row, which was 2 or 3 16th, 17th, and 18th Avenues that you would walk down, and you had all these small little houses that you walk in. You might walk into an independent record label. You might walk into an independent producer, independent publisher. You know, anything to do with the music business. Up and down both sides of that avenue was studios in all music, which. That's the only place you could get that. You couldn't get it in New York like that. You Couldn't get it in LA like that. Not even Boston, you know, so. So we kept going in and out. And the one thing that you find in. In Nashville is, unfortunately, you get a lot of scams. You know, you have to be able to pick apart those scams and. And figure them out. And luckily, that's where. Growing up on a dairy farm and having parents that always told me, if it sounds too good to be true, well, it probably is. Benefited me because we walked into this one place and they offered the world, and there was no way of proving they could or couldn't do it. And I walked away going, nah, there's just no way they can do this. And luckily we passed on them because it turned out they were scams. That's how I wound up.

A (10:43)

How would they have gotten you? They would ask you for money?

B (10:46)

Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like production money. You know, it's like, oh, everybody's good, and then we'll pitch you the labels. And back then, you walk into these rooms and they had pictures of themselves with all the stars and everything. But there was. It's not like today where you can take and Google and find stuff out. Back then, the firewalls to these major stars were their agents and the. And the managers, and you couldn't get to them. Like, if I wanted to get to a. To a Ronnie Millsap, unless I knew how to get to Ronnie Millsap and talk to him, I wasn't going to get talked to him, and I wouldn't be able to find out. So it was one of those situations where you really had to take and really be careful because so many people got taken advantage of, you know, wanting their dreams, and ultimately they wound up with nothing. I mean, there was one. I remember 60 Minutes did a. A complete episode, about 15 minutes of this. This guy that went to Nashville, put all his money up from his farm and everything to go down there and make himself a star. He lost everything, you know, and. And it's. It happened more than. Than you. Than you would even realize.

A (11:56)

Yeah. And money's one thing, but then you have ladies that are trying to do it, and then they get taken advantage of in a totally different way, whether it's music or Hollywood or what have you.

B (12:05)

Absolutely.

A (12:06)

Because that, that. That. That dream, that stardom dream, everybody wants to be famous and be a star. And. Yeah, you got to be careful what you ask for.

B (12:15)

You do. You do. Because. Because if you don't watch yourself and you don't watch what you're doing, you will get taken advantage of. And as soon as you run out of money or run out of whatever you're giving, you're tossed to the side. Is so much garbage. Yeah.

A (12:31)

And it also goes for people that actually do make it and have some success in it and not structuring their deals properly, right?

B (12:37)

Oh, absolutely. I had a well known singer of the 70s and 80s disco queen that she didn't owe the. She technically owed the major label $750,000, but she'd made them millions and millions of dollars. They never went after her because they knew it was just on paper. But every time that she would order new CDs so that she could sell them off stage, they would hit her for a certain percentage that would go towards her debt. So, I mean, I had her manager called me up one time and wanted me to take and, and reproduce all her hit records so that they could own them and they didn't have to go through the major label anymore.

A (13:20)

Yeah, yeah.

B (13:21)

Wow. Yeah.

A (13:23)

Deals, all kinds of stuff that goes on. And then also, not only that, when some people get to the point of success, they're not ready for it. And that's right. The nervous system's not recalibrated to that level of success. They self sabotage. They. You know.

B (13:41)

I don't know if you remember Mindy McCready.

A (13:43)

Yeah, of course.

B (13:44)

Okay, well, David Malloy produced Minnie McCready. And I was at that time I was the only independent producer that was producing in his studio. And at that time he was working with Daryl Singletary, Minnie McCready, and shortly after that, Reba McEntire and you know, a few others. And Mindy came in one time and she had referred me as a producer to a guy out in la. They had done a big show out there, which is kind of like CMA in Nashville, you know, Fanfare. They had their, their version of Fanfare out in la and they called it something, I can't remember what it was now. And she would, she told some people about me and they called me and we talked back and forth and I looked at Mindy and I said, hey, Mindy, thanks for the referral. And she couldn't remember because. Because she at that time was being pulled from so many different directions that, that she couldn't remember. And it was just like week or 10 days earlier. And then it was Fan Fest. That was the name of it because David looked at it, he goes, fan festival, Fan Fest. She goes, oh, oh, yeah, yeah. You know, she was torn in so many different directions. She didn't know whether she's coming or going. Yeah. So, yeah, some people just are not ready if they get that big deal, and then all of a sudden they have a monster hit record. They're not ready for all the people that's going to be tugging and pulling at them.

A (15:10)

Yeah. Not to mention not even being able to go out in public without people, like, just all over you, you know?

B (15:15)

Yeah. I mean. I mean, look at Elvis. That was a perfect example. Yes.

A (15:20)

Yeah.

B (15:20)

I mean, he had to buy out. He had to buy. In order to see a movie at that time, he had to buy out the whole. The whole movie theater.

A (15:26)

Right, Right. Yeah. It's crazy. So what was the break? Then? You went to Nashville. You're going into these places with discernment, trying to avoid scams. And what was the first time you had some success?

B (15:38)

The. The break was the. The songwriters actually got a publisher that was legitimate, and they wanted to record a couple of their songs and pitch them. And we went in the studio. The producer, the piano player didn't show up. And back then, you didn't have a cell phone, so you could call them and say, where the heck are you? So I wound up playing, and out here I am playing, you know, with some of the best players in the. In the. In the country, if not the world, doing a demo. And this guy that owned the publishing company but wasn't doing the production just happened to come in, and he also had an independent record label on. On the Row. And so he knew everybody there except for me. So he comes up, introduces himself, and. And he goes, so what are you doing? And it was. It was in the middle of summer. I had taken the summer off from. From playing with my band just to kind of go down to Nashville what I could find out, because that was my second or third time down. So I told him, I said, well, I've taken a little time off. I'm not going to do something until probably fall. And he goes, well, how would you like to go out with Ronnie McDowell? He's looking for a piano player. And that was before Ronnie McDowell became Ronnie McDowell was just about a year before Elvis died. And so I said, who's Ronnie McDowell? I didn't know. And he goes, well, he's a country singer. He's an Elvis in person. He's. He's not an Elvis impersonator, but he sings like Elvis and does shows, and he's looking for a keyboard player and a background singer for a short tour. I said, okay, you know, I'll go over and Talk to him. So I went over, talked with his management, and we wound up making the deal. I did the short tour with him, and then I wound up being a band leader. Some things happened, and. And then at the end of the tour, I decided that I was going to go my separate ways because I didn't want to be a side musician. I was shooting to be a singer like everybody else. So I called up his management company, and I said, hey. I said, you owe me. He goes, I paid you. I paid you. And I said, yeah, you paid me for a side musician, but you didn't pay me for bandleader. He goes, well, how much money do you want? I said, I don't want any money. He goes, well, what do you want? I said, you know people.

A (18:09)

Now, wait a minute.

B (18:10)

Who is this?

A (18:11)

The manager or Ronnie McDowell?

B (18:12)

This was Ronnie's manager, okay? So I said, you know people. So I want you to be the person that if I run into somebody that I'm thinking about using, that I can call and you'll tell me, yeah, this guy is legitimate or stay away. He goes, okay. He goes, let me give you a guy to call right now. He's in New York. So he gave me this guy. I called him, and it was Blondie's manager. Jeez. So I told him what I was doing. I had just finished a recording in Nashville, so I sent him the project. He calls me up. He goes, man. He goes, this is the third best project I've had this year. And I was kind of starting to get excited, thinking that maybe I'd have a deal, somebody to work with. And I said, so, what can we do? He goes, don't take this the wrong way. He goes, but I don't have time to work with Blondie and three other people. I can only work with Blondie and one other person. You're the third best. He goes, so until you become the best and kick out the other two, he goes, we can't do anything. So I hung up, and I was kind of pissed, but I'm going, okay, this just give me a little fire to make myself better. So I just kept working back and forth. And then I wound up meeting. Because of Ronnie's manager, I started meeting other people in Nashville. And then all of a sudden, my circle started getting wider and bigger, and I didn't need Ronnie's manager anymore, and I started using other people. And I wound up working with Gary Paxton of the Argylls, if you remember Alley oop and all those. He was a producer in town, and I Worked. And he was partnered up with. With Bob Millsap, which he produced a lot of stars. And he also published the song youg Needed Me that Anne Murray cut. And that was the one that he was most proud of. Rather than producing Roy Clark, he was more proud of, you Needed me. You know, so because of them, they're the. They're the ones that Bob called me up one day and. And he goes, you know, out of all the people I work with, you're the only one that asks questions about why you do this, why you do this and everything. And the only difference is Bob worked with all the major labels. So all the answers I got from Bob and Gary were major label, which an independent can't afford to do. So I had to work my way around that and find my way, but it was still good information. And then finally one day, Bob called me up. He goes, you know, Gary's getting ready to retire. I'm getting ready to retire. We're probably going to move closer to our families. You need to get your ass in Nashville and do what we're doing and get yourself off the road. And I had to really think, you know, do I want to do this? And then I decided for the longevity of my music career, would I be better off trying to beat the road and putting out records and going doing shows all across the country, or would I be better served behind the scenes producing people that I might get to a label and make money that way? So I chose to go to the production route, and that's what I've been doing ever since.

A (21:19)

Wow.

B (21:19)

Wow. All right.

A (21:20)

And just so I'm clear, what's a manager do for an artist?

B (21:24)

Management. So many people are. Are confused with management and booking agents. So many people will call up, I need. I need you to manage me, thinking that I'm going to manage them and go out and get them performances. And that's not what management does. Management makes sure that they're headed on the right direction. They're following the right career paths. If they do get shows, they can. They can work the deal with the. With the. With whoever's doing the shows to make sure that the contracts are right. If they get to a label, then they can work with the lawyer to make sure the contract is right. They're basically managing their career to make sure that they don't make any oops along the way. Gotcha. Because one stupid move can kill a career.

A (22:12)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, where do managers train and learn that, though?

B (22:19)

I don't know.

A (22:19)

Yeah, I always wondered, like, where do.

B (22:21)

They come from school? Hard knocks. You basically learn it by doing it, being around people, seeing what they've done. I mean, I've. And sometimes management is just knowing right from wrong, having a gut feeling that, you know, this isn't right. I mean, there's been many times I've told one of my artists or a couple of my artists that wanted to do something, no, you can't do this. And they wanted to do it in the worst way. I said, look, I said, you can't do this. You know, it's going to end up bad. And I had one guy that, he goes, okay, I'll follow you lead. He goes, but. But I just want to let you know that if. If we find out that this. I should have done this, it's on you. It's on me. He goes, but it's on you. I said, yep, no problem. Six months later, seven months later, we found out that if he had gone, it would have blown up and it would have killed his career.

A (23:14)

Yeah.

B (23:14)

You know, so I made the right choice.

A (23:15)

Yeah.

B (23:16)

So it's just. It's just using your gut. You know, it's kind of like when I went to Nashville the first time and I walked out of that. That, that office going, okay, this is too good to be true. If something sounds too good, you better do dig and dig and dig to make sure that it is legitimate or it's too good.

A (23:34)

Yeah. Because the right answer is, hey, listen, you guys can come in here, you can pay for studio time or what have you. I can't promise you anything, but I will tell you that we. We will do our darndest to get you out there with our connections and this and that.

B (23:47)

Well, and management. That. That's production you're talking.

A (23:51)

That's what I'm talking about with the production. When you were going into the houses.

B (23:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So production, you know, is basically, hey, I get this amount of money for producing, and then if it gets to a label, I get points. Management makes sure that everything goes right, you know, and then booking makes sure you get shows right, you know, so you've got. You got three different levels there. And I've done. I don't do booking. I tell people I don't have time to do booking. That's a whole nother world all by itself. But management, production, I have an independent label. I've. I put people to radio and produce them and got them in the charts and done well, you know, so those are the things that I work on from a music standpoint.

A (24:33)

Gotcha. Okay, so let's take it from an artist that comes in. You like them, you want to work with them. How do they get to radio and get on the charts? Like, what goes into that?

B (24:43)

Well, let's say they're good enough. First you. You get the production that will stand and compete. And that's the one thing that I tell people. I can't guarantee you where it's going to land, but I can guarantee you if you do what I ask you to do vocally, I will give you a production that will compete any place in the country and any place in the world. And then it's just a matter of, let's see what we can do. Because when you have a production that doesn't stand not only the test of time, but doesn't stand the test of two or three months of quality, what you're doing, you're listening to a Tim McGraw, then you're listening to my production. And then you listen to a Faith Hill or Rebo, whoever it may be. And if there's a dip in quality from 1 to 2, the listener might not make it to number 3. And that's why the radio won't play it, because it doesn't sound as good. So you've got to make sure that whatever you put out will compete against the very best that a major label would put out. So that's why, when I take people in the studio, I use a lot of the same people the major labels use, but I just use my inflection of what I want. I tell them how. How to play it. I tell them what I want. They don't just put their signature licks on and call it good. I, we. We dig in and we work on it. So we. So when it got. When it's done, it will compete against anybody, any place. So once you've got that, then it's a matter of what chart you want to take it to. There's all kinds of charts. It used to be back in the 70s and the 80s, you had Casey Kasem's top 40, and that was your pop charts. And then you had Kingsley's top 40. That was your country charts. Now you've got the country charts, but your pop charts have been divided into five or six different charts. So you get your dance charts, you've got your adult contemporary, you've got your top 40, you've got, you know, you've got several different things. So you've got to pick what chart you think this song will do the best in. And what you're going to be labeled as. That's why Michael Buble, if anybody ever sees what he's rated in charts, there was up until a few years ago he was solely adult contemporary and he's made a very good living on adult contemporary. And then they had a song that they felt would go adult contemporary and contemporary ac. So they took it there and he hit two charts, you know, so but when you start getting into those major charts, your media based charts, you know, your I Heart, you know, those, those higher end charts, you're gonna, you better be ready, be ready to spend a lot of money because these major labels spend boatloads of money to make sure that they get what they want and that's those songs hitting the charts. So they can get the downloads, get the sales and get to get the shows.

A (27:50)

Yeah. And when you talk about taking it to the charts, what is the process?

B (27:54)

The process is, is mailing it out to, you know, down, you know, you've got, you go, you go to a company and they'll digital send it now to all the radio stations that are in that chart, which most people don't realize. These charts that they, that they watch between 90 and 110 radio stations tell the charts out of 4000 charts across. 4000 radio stations across the country. So you get, you get it to the chart that you're going to the radio stations that are in that chart, then you've got to hire promoters that have relationships with these radio stations that can call them up and say, hey look, did you see XYZ release a record, you know, give it a listen and then you start working it and working it and hopefully you can gradually work it up the charts and compete. So, and it's, it's a, it's a hard deal.

A (28:47)

So you, they have a program, program director basically, and they get, they're the ones that have to hear it, right? To be able to put it.

B (28:52)

Program director and music director.

A (28:54)

And then they put it in the playlist on the radio.

B (28:56)

If they like it.

A (28:57)

If they like it.

B (28:58)

Yeah.

A (28:58)

And then they'll play if they like.

B (29:00)

It and if they, if they, if they can work the deal.

A (29:04)

So, so you got to pay them the program director and the music director.

B (29:07)

No, no, that, that's payola. That's against the rules.

A (29:10)

Okay.

B (29:11)

You know, but there, there's other things that, that you can do to help out. You know, you can, you can give them like a tv, you know, and they use it for, for giveaways and stuff like that.

A (29:21)

Okay, gotcha.

B (29:22)

You know, and. And they. That's not, you know, that's not payola. And you're not paying them to play it. And they're not saying they'll play it if you give them a tv, but at least you're giving them, you know, something that can help them promote their station. And maybe they'll give you a little bit of more, you know, pat on the back to help you.

A (29:41)

Yeah. They got to like the song, though. And then. And then it's just.

B (29:43)

That's right.

A (29:44)

It's just. You got to get it.

B (29:45)

There's a lot of games that are playing.

A (29:47)

Yeah. You got to get attention. At the end of the day, it's all about attention, right?

B (29:50)

Oh, yeah, yeah. And if you don't know how to play that game and navigate through that. That jigsaw puzzle, that maze, you'll get lost every time.

A (29:58)

Yeah. And it could be the greatest singer in the world. And they just didn't. They just didn't get attention.

B (30:02)

I. I had. I had one person, one time when I was. When I was looking at going to college. This is. And this is the music industry as a whole. I was looking at going to college. My first year at college, first two semesters, I wasn't going to have anything in music. It's all going to be all about going to be history, language, you know, I'm going, wait a minute. I'm. I'm. My major is going to be music because you could be Beethoven and. And you're not going to get to play any music until the second year. So that's the same thing here in music, you can be the best thing going, but if you don't fit through those cracks, you're not going to make it.

A (30:36)

Yeah. Yeah. I was recently talking to Nate Smith. Have you heard of Nate Smith? Yeah, yeah. He's a great guy, man, I'll tell you. But I connected with him, and he's just a genuine dude, but he's. He's really good. And in talking to him, I was just like, you know, you could be really good, but, like, everybody's got their story of who they knew or how they got found out. And, you know, I'm always interested in that because I know some really good singers and they just don't know the game, and I don't know how to. I'm. I'm not in that game to help them. I try to connect people. I'm a big networker, so I try to make introductions and things because that's what it takes a lot of Times, Right. The network.

B (31:12)

It takes a network. But the biggest thing now, and it's really kind of sad, is this music business is not about how good you are. I mean, it is, but it's about how much money you have behind you. It's like when Taylor Swift first started out, a lot of people don't realize it. She had $6 million behind her. She had investors, her dad had money, and. And she took. I mean, she went through hell the first couple of years because. Because she was developing. She was still in the process of learning how to sing. She. But she was. She was networking because that was back when. When MySpace was going and she was working MySpace and. And she was getting all these fans and all these teenagers following her. I mean, all that stuff was happening, but none of it would have happened if she hadn't had the money. Matter of fact, she was on. A lot of people don't realize she was on rca and they dropped her before. Before she wound up with Big Machine.

A (32:08)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (32:09)

You know, so. So a lot of that was money. A lot of that was, hey, we'll spend the money, we'll do it. And then eventually, over a period of time, she started developing, she started getting better, and radio started accepting her. And now, look, she's the biggest thing going.

A (32:23)

Yeah. And then the other thing is proximity, Right. Like, you can get around a great artist that has attention and. And they kind of vouch for you in a way because you're in proximity to them. Not only will you get better being around good people, but if somebody sees you with somebody that's made, it makes a difference.

B (32:36)

Right. Sometimes, you know, I mean. I mean, it. It can make a difference on performances, you know, if you get shows or not. Yeah. But as far as radio, unless you've got that money and somebody pushing you to radio.

A (32:50)

Yeah.

B (32:50)

It doesn't matter who you connected with. They're going to say, oh, that's nice. You know, Taylor Swift. But what's that got to do with you? With this?

A (32:56)

Yeah.

B (32:57)

You know, so. So you've got to have. You got to have a machine behind you promoting it that has relationships with these stations so that you can get heard and keep building. And it's a process.

A (33:08)

Yeah, yeah. Final thing I want to touch on. I heard Aaron Lewis from Stained. He went from rock and roll into country and went solo. He was on Tucker Carlson show and he was talking about, like, how he can't stand this new country that's coming out with, like, Morgan Wallen, for example, how he's mixing in Some hip hop beats in behind and.

B (33:27)

Right.

A (33:27)

Like. Oh, just, you know, he gets all pissed off about it. He's talking.

B (33:30)

Right.

A (33:30)

What are your thoughts on the new new age country, pop country that's coming out?

B (33:34)

Well, what I think is really interesting is I had a. I had a singer here, oh, probably for about 10 years, from 2012-22, me. And he was 90s country all, you know, and that's where he wanted to be. And he was a. We had him charting, we had him getting there, but because it was only. But he was falling under that traditional name and because there was only a couple of others out there. Like, I can't think of the guy's name, but he was on Warner Brothers. And they took. It took a year to get him to number one. And then that next year they didn't release anything. And then they released him and he went high and then they dropped him because he was just too traditional. And so we were fighting that traditional thing. Now fast forward, you know, three, four years later, you know, and this new, you know, hip hop music and this new style of music that's coming out that they, that they're labeling country, that's not country, is giving the 90s country people a little bit bigger chance because they're not being labeled traditional anymore. They are being labeled 90s.

A (34:48)

Right.

B (34:49)

Right. You know, so. So it's cut. So 90s is actually starting to make a little bit of a comeback in some areas because they're. They're comparing it to the stuff that everybody doesn't like now rather than back then when they were kind of comparing it to traditional.

A (35:08)

Right.

B (35:08)

So it's, it's a, It's a changed world.

A (35:11)

Yeah. And what are you working on now? What kind of music?

B (35:14)

Mine is, you know, the interesting part with mine is I've got Glen Campbell's daughter, Debbie, and she is. I've always told people that she's the female Glen Campbell because her voice is so smooth. Liquid gold, you know. So I've got her released over in the UK Right now. I work with Jackie Wilson's son Bobby. And that's all the Motown end of it. I mean, when I signed him back in 2012, it was like all the Motown people started calling me. And all of a sudden I started finding myself doing more things with, with, with. With R and B, you know. And then all of a sudden I found myself doing less and less with country because R and B and my pop was. Was taken over. And then just a couple of three years ago, I started working With Donny, most of Happy Days, which is kind of like a Bobby Daren, Frank Sinatra. So I'm all over the place. I mean. I mean, like, I tell people, like when. I told people when I first started producing country, I did not go to Berkeley College of Music to learn how to produce country. Right, Right. You know, I know how to produce pop rock, adult contemporary. You give it to me, I'll give you something that will compete. So I find myself working with all kinds of different styles of music.

A (36:30)

Yeah. And to think that I grew up watching Happy Days. And. And you're. You're working with this guy.

B (36:38)

Yeah.

A (36:39)

You know, like, did you. Do you ever pinch yourself?

B (36:41)

Like, oh, yeah. I mean, it's like some of the people I've worked around, it's like, man, I just sit back and go, you know, it doesn't get any better than this.

A (36:50)

What's the one that really got got to you, though, out of all the.

B (36:53)

People you've been around? You know, it was. It wasn't that I worked with them. It was that they were calling me to work with it.

A (37:04)

Yeah.

B (37:05)

Lenny Welch, if you remember him, you know, I mean, he just died here last year. But. But he would call me and talk with me. Sonny Turner, the Platters, you know, would call me and talk with me. I found that all these people that I grew up with listening to, because I. Because, I mean, when I was growing up, like I said, I listened to Credence and all that, but I also listen to Jackie Wilson. I also listened to, you know, you know, to, you know, to all the. The Platters that, you know, the 50s and the 60s, you know, and I listen, and I found all of a sudden, all these people that I grew up listening to recalling me to talk to me, and also saying, hey, if we get a chance to work together, let's. Let's do a project, you know, so as much as I've worked with a lot of people, you know, like Donnie and people like that, that I sit back and go, you know, man, this is. This is kind of cool, you know, I mean, Myla Mason, I produced her for a while, you know, and she had a bunch of hit big hits back in the 90s. It's the fact that I have all these people calling me up and saying, hey, you know, I want to be on your podcast, or. Or, you know, I want to be, you know, I want to talk with you about something. That's the. The pinch me moments, I guess.

A (38:17)

Yeah, yeah. You remember Happy Not Happy Days.

B (38:19)

What's happening yeah, Yeah.

A (38:21)

I was in New York and Long island at a party. This podcast thing has taken me places that I could have never imagined. And I look over and there's a guy shorter than me standing next to me, a bald headed black dude. And it was Dwayne Wayne from what's Happening? I'm like, you look familiar. And he goes, yeah, yeah. And he told me, you know what he did? And I was like, oh, man, I grew up watching you as a kid coming home from school and, you know, it's just wild.

B (38:42)

Yeah. I met J.J. walker last, last year. Oh, really? And, and the, the two people that played his sister and her brother. And then from One Day at a time, I met Mackenzie Phillips. Jeez. You know, it's like, it's like. Yeah. I mean, just. Just being in Nashville and doing the things that I do just. Just opens up doors where people, you know, they find me.

A (39:01)

Right.

B (39:01)

And that's. I think that's probably the most, you know, thing that that makes me realize is, is that these people find me.

A (39:10)

Yeah.

B (39:11)

You know, it's like I'm going, whoa. You know, it's like, it's like I grew up listening to them.

A (39:15)

Yeah.

B (39:15)

You know, so here I am, a little, little, you know, small town guy from, from Madison, Maine, you know, and here I am in Nashville and I'm doing everything that I dreamed of.

A (39:24)

It's amazing. Tony, I want to thank you so much for being here today, man, and chopping it up with me. Where. Where can people hear the podcast or what's it called? Let's do that. Because they know where to find.

B (39:33)

I've actually got two podcasts. I've got. I've got one's called why Not Me? And we just hit 11 million downloads today.

A (39:39)

Congrats, man.

B (39:40)

Yeah, it's. That one's on. That one covers autism and mental health around the world.

A (39:45)

Awesome.

B (39:46)

And it's in the top 10 right now in the Apple charts. And then I've got one that's called Almost Live Nashville, and it's number one in. It's number one in the music charts in Apple and it's number one in the music interviews in Apple. And it's in like, I don't know, it's in the Apple charts in like 20, 22 countries around the world. So they can find me on that. They can find me@tonymantro.com, all the social media. I'm. I'm wherever you. Wherever you look and listen. That's where I am at.

A (40:18)

Love it. Folks, go check him out. That's Tony Mantor. Tony, thank you so much for your time today, man. Appreciate you.

B (40:23)

Yeah, I appreciate it.

A (40:24)

All right, hang tight while I wrap this up, folks. Thank you. This is this episode of the Woody Made up show with your boy C. Rock, here with Tony Manta sharing what he's made of. Make sure you hit the subscribe follow button at the top of your favorite podcast platform and keep coming back. Until next time, be that one.