B (2:34)

It's called How a Little Becomes a Lot. The Art of Small Changes for a More Meaningful Life.

A (2:40)

Love it. I love it. So you waited 12 years to write your first book from when you started the podcast?

B (2:47)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (2:49)

I, I, I felt like I did it early on because I just. I don't know, I thought I had to.

B (2:55)

Yeah.

A (2:55)

But, yeah, you've. You've had a lot of input and a lot of experience through these, through these. I don't know how many episodes you've done to really put a good plan together for this. I see.

B (3:06)

So, yeah, I mean, it may have been wise to do one sooner, but. And I was approached a couple times in the earlier years by publishers, and then they'd be like, all right, we'll put together a proposal, and I would put something together. But I didn't quite feel like I knew what my book was. You know, I was like, all right, I'll make it based on the podcast. And it just never really took. And so finally, a few years ago, after I taught my Wise Habits program to over a thousand people, and I finally was like, I know what it is now. Like, I have a path, a plan, I have some ideas. And so. And I have the time to really devote myself to doing it well, because books matter so much to me. They've. They've been some of the most important things in my life. Life. And so I really wanted to do it well. So, yeah, I did wait for, for better and or worse.

A (4:00)

And who helped you with your book?

B (4:03)

It's being published by Harper Collins.

A (4:05)

Okay, awesome. Yeah. So we work with a lot of book publishers, and I was going to get into this later, but I'll share this with you now. Like, we work with some of the top people in the space of whatever industry they're in. Health, wellness, coaching, consulting, entrepreneurship, founders, what have you, and getting them booked on the top podcasts out there. Not just any podcast. Not just to put reps in and all that, but really move the needle. And so we work with a lot of book publishers to fulfill their needs for their clients. And HarperCollins is one I'm going to be talking to soon because I've heard that they could really utilize what we have. We haven't asked that here, so.

B (4:43)

Nope, no comment.

A (4:44)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. So I, I, I'm going to be connecting with them very soon to. Because I don't, I don't think a lot of people understand that or know that we exist. This kind of company. They, they know that there's ones that can do, just put some reps out there, but you got to move the needle if you're going to do it, you know, a hundred percent. Yeah, I love it. And then. So that's coming out here in March. That's awesome. And then. All right, let's dive into your story a little bit because, you know, obviously you went through a period of time of overcoming addiction and, you know, probably being lost. Right. So where did all this start, like, from the beginning?

B (5:17)

Well, I think lost is probably an understatement for where I was. I mean, my, my addiction started, like most anybody's story, where I began to experiment with alcohol and drugs. Friends were doing it. I, you know, but I reacted very strangely to them from the beginning. I, I would do things like, we would get really drunk, and I would wake up the next morning, and there would be some vodka on the, on the counter, and I'd pour it into a glass of orange juice and drink it. Like, that's just not normal, like, second time you ever drink behavior. And so. And I didn't do it a lot then, but, but it eventually picked up speed. And when I was 18, I really kind of sort of fell off the deep end into alcohol, which led to marijuana, which led to psychedelics, which led to anything. And I found myself at a band practice. I played music in bands, out at clubs, and I found myself at band practice once, and I was like, how are these people more effed up than I am? Like, what's going on here? And, well, what was going on is they were heroin users. And so I started that, which kicked off a really difficult period of time. And it was all difficult, but this really.

A (6:37)

Well, hold on a second here. So, yeah, this is very interesting because you said that you were doing some stuff, and then you observed that they were more messed up than you, but yet somehow we still chase something like, like you, you, you saw that they were more messed up than you, so you followed that. You know what I mean?

B (6:56)

It's weird, I guess. I mean, like, they seemed higher than me.

A (6:59)

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

B (7:01)

Band practice. I'm like, what are these people on?

A (7:03)

Okay.

B (7:03)

And they told me. And then someone said, do you want to try it? And I was like, sure.

A (7:09)

And yeah.

B (7:10)

And. And off it, off it went from there.

A (7:13)

Yeah. And so when I was partying and things, I. I knew that, like, I didn't drink until I got out of high school. And I've been around a lot of parties, people drink, and I just never did it because I was, like, an athlete this and that. But then when I got to college, and I also had a pretty severe concussion my senior year in high school, so they say that that can lead into less inhibition and, you know, leading down that road. But I remember knowing that I shouldn't be doing this, but whether it was to fit in, to be cool, there was girls, you know, whatever the thing was. Did you know in the back of your mind, like, you knew better Pretty early on?

B (7:53)

Yes. I think relatively early. I was able to see, like, this feels out of control. And I will tell myself, maybe I shouldn't drink so much tonight, or maybe I should take a couple days off or maybe this or maybe that. I just wouldn't do it.

A (8:12)

Yeah.

B (8:13)

And then. And when I say wouldn't do it, I wouldn't follow my rules. And. And. And I also looked at the people around me, and there just seemed to be a difference in the way that we were using substances for them. It was part of the party life. It was fun for me. It felt. I don't know, there was a desperation in me, I think, that I, you know, not everybody else had. So, yeah, I think I knew fairly early on, but it took me nine years of pretty much daily use of all different substances before I was able to actually put a stop to it. And I tried lots of different things over the years, but. But finally I was able to get sober.

A (8:57)

Yeah, there's a destroying cycle that happens. I remember at a time where I was drinking, I felt like. I always felt like crap the next day. And not as bad as I would do now if I was drinking. Obviously older, it's harder, right, to recover.

B (9:08)

Yeah.

A (9:09)

But I still feel like crap the next day. And then we would talk and be like, yeah, we were so messed up. And we would kind of brag about it to make ourselves feel better. But the thing is, I remember times where I was like, I'm not drinking tonight. I'm done swearing it off. But I had no, no trust in myself. I couldn't count on myself because I remember the next night, I came to my senses and I was in a urinal at a dive bar. And I came to my senses while I was taking a leak at a urinal and thinking, how did I get here again?

B (9:35)

Yeah.

A (9:36)

I had no recollection of how I got there again and I just fell right into it. I had no willpower, no discernment, and I wanted it. I wanted it bad. But I don't know, I just didn't understand how to do it or, you know, it's pretty crazy how it takes over.

B (9:54)

Well, you make a really important point, and it's part of the. One of the big points in my book is that I think change, learning to change anything is a skill. And you just said, I didn't know how to do it. And that was really the case with me and my addiction. I finally learned enough, obtained enough skills, got enough support that I was able to figure it out. And I think all of us find ourselves at points in life where we're trying to make changes and it's difficult and we blame ourselves, Right? We think, oh, I'm just. I don't have enough discipline or I'm a weak person, or I'm a lazy person. And I really believe we can learn to change. And that's what this book is about. It's about teaching those skills.

A (10:41)

Yeah. And one of the things that helped me a lot was starting to do what I said I was going to do, right? Small little step, like one step at a time. Like, okay, I'm saying I'm going to do this. I'm going to honor that and trust myself. And then as you do that, you start. It's just like a muscle. You start to build confidence in yourself, trust in yourself, until you're able to call the.

B (11:01)

Yeah. That's why I call the book How a Little Becomes a Lot. Because sometimes that lit, like what we need to do to start to build trust in ourselves. We have to make it small, right? So that we can do it. But when we do it, we feel better about ourselves, and we feel better about ourselves. We can do more and then we do more. We feel better about ourselves. It's an upward spiral in the right direction versus the other spiral, which I was very familiar with, was say you're not going to drink or use. Do it, Feel worse about yourself. The only way I know to deal with feeling bad about myself is to drink or get high, which causes me to then feel worse about myself. And it's a downward spiral.

A (11:39)

Yeah, it's. And. And it's overwhelming when you think about it, like, I gotta get. I wanna get clean. I wanna stop this. But you can't even fathom how you're gonna do it. When you're thinking about the big picture, the whole thing, it's overwhelming. So how do you handle something overwhelming, you get grabbed, something that you can do, even like you said, small and chip away. Chip away?

B (11:56)

Yep.

A (11:57)

Chip away. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (11:59)

I mean, in my case, getting over the type of addiction I had, CA needed a major intervention. Right. I went into long term treatment. That's what I needed at that point for my, my addiction. I stayed sober eight years and I went back out and I started drinking again. Never went back to the heroin. And that time I didn't go back to treatment to get sober. I just went to a meeting a day, a little thing each day, and, and that was enough. And so depending who are, where we are, what we're dealing with will determine what little means.

A (12:33)

Yeah. What was the catalyst for you to stop the drugs? Like was there almost overdose situation? Was there enough? You just came to it one day, Enough's enough Or like, what happened?

B (12:45)

Well, I had tried a couple times. I had been to treatment before and had what I thought were my, you know, my low bottom moments. This was just another. I had been, I'd been arrested, I'd been charged with five grand felonies. I was jaundiced with hepatitis c. I weighed 100 pounds. I had been living in the back of a van and that van had just gotten taken away. So I went to detox because I just didn't know what else to do. I literally was like, I'm going to be incredibly dope sick today. I have no. Like, the things I, the ways I got money are no longer available to me. And I didn't know what to do. So I went there and once I was there, they managed to, to convince me, like, you need to stay here, you know. So I think it was a combination of like a really, you know, a bad bottom. I just saw like I was going to die or go to jail really soon.

A (13:42)

Yeah. Did you end up serving time?

B (13:45)

I did not. I got really lucky. Yeah, I got, I got put into a program. It was called a diversion program. And I had to agree to go to treatment for a certain amount of time. I had to do a community service. I was on probation for 5 years, piss tested every week. And the deal was, if you get through all this, we will make this go away. And if you don't, you'll serve maximum sentences. And that turned out to be fairly motivating in my case.

A (14:14)

Yeah, I'll say. Yeah.

B (14:16)

So. But I was fortunate. A lot of people don't get those opportunities, so I was really fortunate to get that opportunity.

A (14:22)

Yeah. You know, heroin is so strong and powerful. Because it does feel good. It. Like it's. You know. And by the way, I never did heroin, but I just know from what I've heard that it's beyond any of the other things that we've done. Yeah, like the feeling.

B (14:40)

Try not to reflect on that a whole lot, but.

A (14:42)

No, but that's why it's so powerful. And it's just like anything in life, that's a sin, so to speak.

B (14:46)

A sin.

A (14:47)

The reason that it's so powerful is because it does feel good. And you're like, you know, you get sucked into it, and it only takes once. You know, that's the key. It's not like you do it and you got to do it over and over again. It can hook you, grab you that first time. And so I want to hear your thoughts on what do you think that you were chasing or what happened as a youngster, if anything, that led you to start drinking and partying and all this? Was there something that you were chasing or getting. Running from?

B (15:20)

I. I'm always suspicious of tidy narratives that say I was that way because this happened in my childhood. But what I can broadly say is that I think my parents were both depressed people. They had an awful marriage. I didn't get a lot of the things that I needed probably to get as a child. And I think I was a sensitive. I was a sensitive kid. And so what I was really looking for, I think, was to feel connection, because I think I had learned to numb myself really, really well. And so drugs, and originally alcohol and then drugs, they. They. They actually connected me to the world. In the beginning, they. They made the world come alive for me. And then over time, as I began to mess my life up from the drugs and alcohol, and I started to feel the shame of what I was doing. Like you said, the knowing I'm. I'm doing the wrong thing, and yet I keep doing it again and again and again. Then the use began to start to be a little bit about escaping that. That shame, and it started to feed on itself in. In that way.

A (16:29)

Yeah. Yeah. And then what are your thoughts on the story? I was listening to Charlie Sheen. He's been on a lot of podcasts recently because he had a show out about his life. And, And. And I was thinking this before I heard him say this, but, like, the AA meetings, they've done wonders, right? Saved a lot of lives and gotten people out of it. But the label that you put on yourself and you have to admit in there, or you don't have to, but they tell you to admit is like, I'm an alcoholic. I am. And whatever follows I am is what you usually create your future out of. So I understand why they want to say that, so that you know, okay, why it's not good for me to be around alcohol or do you drink alcohol? But I also, you know, in, in personal development and even in the Bible, it says I am. And whatever follows I am is. Is what it is what you end up being, identifying with, right? What you identify with is what you do, what you, how you talk and who you hang around. So Charlie had an issue with that. He's like, I don't really relate to that. Like, I don't really like the fact that they say I am an alcoholic because I don't want to label myself that anymore. I'm, I'm, I'm clean and sober now, and that's what it is. And, but so I had this thought as well. So I was like, I don't necessarily agree with that, but I guess if.

B (17:42)

It works, it works.

A (17:42)

What are your thoughts on that part?

B (17:45)

Yeah, I have a lot of mixed feelings about it. Look, 12 step programs saved my life twice. So if you, my, my general feeling is if you, you're trying things and you cannot get sober, it's a great alternative. They're free. They are everywhere. You know, in Columbus, there's probably 400 meetings a week, right? It's free, it's everywhere. It does work. And there are some challenges with that, I think. To me, labels and identities should be carried when they're useful and set down when they're not. Right? And so for me, in the beginning, to identify as an alcoholic was a diagnosis in a way. It told me, I understood now what was wrong with me. Right? And I could see the other word people do not relate to in 12 step programs is in the very first step, it talks about being powerless, right? I felt powerless at that point. And the point of 12 step programs is you can find power. You need to find power that you don't currently have. So you get over this. So for a long time, alcoholic felt fine. For me, I still am okay with it. I eventually moved away from 12 step meetings. And part of the reason was it was because a lot of people, when they said alcoholic, they meant more than a person who should not drink alcohol. You know, they would talk about, you know, we're all, you know, there's an idea that, like, we're all messed up alcoholics. We're different than other people. We're, you know, we're Liars and we're cheats and we're thieves and we're, and I. Eventually we just felt like that's not me anymore. I mean, I've got a number of years where I don't, I'm not like that anymore. So it began, it began to be a label that wasn't really useful because now what it was doing was separating me from everyone else. In the beginning, I needed that community, that thing to come together. So to me, do I. I don't really even know. I don't know how I would identify myself. I, I guess if we were talking about alcohol and drugs, I would say, well, I would say I'm a recovering alcoholic or addict, which is a reminder to me that I just shouldn't, I shouldn't mess with mind altering substances. But other than that, I'm no different than anybody else. Right. We all have things we wrestle with. So I think it's a really case by case situation of what works for people. And it worked for me for a while and then it began to feel less true in some way, but still a little bit true in a very strict definition.

A (20:32)

Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. And, and, and so coming out of that and, and going into the phase of your life now where you're clean and sober, not focused on that stuff anymore, and now you get into creation mode. What was the first thing you got into work wise? Business.

B (20:49)

I all I had done when I got sober, the all I had done up till then was work in restaurants. And nothing wrong with working in restaurants, but that's all I had known. I never went to college because. And I stumb into one of the world's first Internet companies that strangely enough was in Columbus, Ohio called CompuServe. They were around in AOL days. And I just, I got a customer service job and I worked really hard and I got promoted and I worked harder. Again, I got promoted and I just sort of found my way into the software business, which is really where all my career was until I started doing this full time.

A (21:30)

So. Okay, so you did that and then, and then how. Talk about the, the transition out of the software business into doing this full time. Like, you know, obviously you got to start first while you're still in there because you got to have money. Right? Yeah. Take us through that transition because it's always interesting to hear people and when they decided to really pull the plug on that.

B (21:50)

Yeah, I, I mean I started the podcast. I didn't really think like, oh, a podcast would be a business because that just didn't even barely exist as an idea. Back in 2014, nobody was saying, I'm going to be a podcaster. So I started it because I thought it would be good for me to talk to people about living a better life because I needed it. I had had a solar energy company fail. I was kind of depressed, I was in a bad marriage, and I started doing it, and lo and behold, it went well and people started listening. And so it was about five and a half years, six years into doing the podcast, that I was able to do it full time. And I think about four years in, I allowed myself to say out loud like, I wish I could do this for a living. You know, I dared to dream that that was possible. And it took me two years to pull it off. And that just was a matter of me starting to think about, well, how does the podcast and, and all that earn more revenue? How can I start saving money? How can I, you know, what, what can I do so that in two years time I can do this? And the, and I was able to make the jump.

A (23:04)

And so you didn't know how to do that at the time. You, you didn't know how. You just were committed to. The end result was, I want to do this.

B (23:10)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I did not know how. I mean, at that time, the time that I said it, it was, I mean, it was a long way from that being a possibility. I had, you know, I had kids in high school, one of them in a private school. I had college coming up, we had a mortgage. Right. I mean, I had, I had big expenses, and it just didn't feel right to me to be like, well, I want a podcast, so you guys are on your own.

A (23:36)

Right, right.

B (23:36)

You know, so, so yeah, I, I, I had to make a choice. And that choice, up till now has not been financially as good for me as staying in the software business. I was finally at that age where I've been in it long enough that I started to make really serious money. But I do what I love to do. I set my own schedule. I spent three months in Europe last year. I spent eight weeks in Europe this year. Right. Like, I prioritized a quality of life over, you know, over money.

A (24:14)

Yeah.

B (24:15)

And I, and I get to make that choice. But, yeah, I did not know how. And it seemed like a really large gap to make up. But as I say in the book, little by little I kept working and getting closer and closer. And then the day came.

A (24:27)

And what did you do with first to monetize?

B (24:31)

Well, we started getting podcast advertisers. We had, we had, we had sponsors early on. And then I began. A couple people asked me, like, well, do you ever do any coaching work with people? And I thought, well, I don't know. But then I thought, why not try it? People are asking me about this, why not? And the minute I did it, I was like, oh, this is like being a sponsor to people in aa. And I've done that countless times, except now I'm getting paid to do it. So. So yeah, that was the. It was those two things.

A (25:02)

Okay.

B (25:03)

And. And when I left the, the My software world, I really ramped up the coaching for a while because that was the fastest path to more revenue.

A (25:11)

Yeah.

B (25:11)

But the extra time allowed me to put more time into the podcast, which meant that it grew, which meant our advertise, our advertising revenues grew. And then I was able to, you know, I sort of worked myself into a different box. The box was I have to coach all the time to make, make this work, which is better than where I was, but still not ideal. So then I started transitioning into programs, which. The Wise Habits program was that. And then that eventually led to the book, which I got a good advance on. And that, you know, has helped for. For a little while. So it just all kind of kept moving forward.

A (25:48)

Yeah. And would you call it life coaching or what kind of coaching? And who were you? Who was your ideal client?

B (25:53)

I really don't like that word. For some reason, it just life coaching connotates something. I tended to think of myself. I mostly do business coaching now. Okay. But early on, I thought of myself as a behavioral coach, meaning people would want something to be different in their lives and they were having trouble doing it. Maybe it was they wanted to exercise more and eat better. Maybe it was they wanted to write a book. Maybe it was they wanted to start a business, but they were not making the changes they needed. And so I really focused on that, like, how do people change? And that ultimately, like I said, is what the book, My book is about. It's about how do we change? How do we make the changes we want to make in life if they're just, you know, sometimes we try and change something and it just. It's easy and it happens, but not everything is that way. And not always, not for all people.

A (26:51)

Yeah. And how about the types of clients? Who were they? What were they doing?

B (26:57)

Like, work wise or. Yeah.

A (26:59)

Were they, Were they a specific industry? Were they. Yeah. What's the ideal client back, you know, now?

B (27:06)

Well, today the ideal Client is entrepreneurs. People thinking of start, you know, starting a thought leadership business like mine. Also people who run, you know, I've got a couple clients who say have 50, 50 employees and they've got their own business, but it's just, it's a lot. They're not enjoying themselves. Their business has sort of trapped them. And so we work a lot on, like, how do you, how do you begin to have your business serve your life, not your life, serve your business. Yeah, yeah.

A (27:46)

You know, a lot of people get into this and they think, man, if, if I have this successful business, I got to be obsessed with it, lean into it, and I can't have a, you know, I sacrifice my marriage and my family for this.

B (27:55)

Yeah.

A (27:56)

And they make an excuse, but they, they basically become effect versus cause. We can cause and create our future. We can cause and create the life we want. And who's to say that we can't have a successful, highly successful business with amazing family and take care of my health at the same time?

B (28:10)

A hundred percent? I mean, yeah, I don't know how successful you would say my business is, but I can do the things I want to do. I spend time with my friends, I'm in good health, I travel. I employ people that matter to me and they do well. So it's successful enough. And that's clear choices I could get rid of. I could get rid of one of those people and do those things myself because I know how to do them. I once did them all myself, but I choose not to because want to be done in time to have dinner with my partner. Right. And so everything's just, you know, trade offs. What, what choices do you want? But I'm the sort of person who's going to work with me as somebody who is interested in, you know, having a, a meaningful, happy, productive life, not just crushing it in business.

A (29:07)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's who I want to be around those kind of people. I've seen so many times where people have had success in business and then they're divorced and, and that's because they just had, they sacrificed that or this and they thought that had to be the choice. And it doesn't.

B (29:22)

Right, right. It does not have to be.

A (29:24)

Yeah. So what going forward, as you have this book coming out and what do you see happening now? Like, what would have to happen to light you up that it happened with the book coming out? And I mean, do you plan on speaking on stages, more becoming, like, what is it?

B (29:35)

Yeah, that's, that's what I want to Do I want to speak more? I. I gave some thought to, you know, I don't know how old you are. I'm older. Right.

A (29:43)

49 tomorrow.

B (29:44)

All right, so I'm 55 or Saturday, let's say I've got 20 more years or so of. I mean, I don't think I'll ever retire. Retire. That doesn't even make any sense to me. But I'm going to do this for a while. And I thought about, like, where. What do I like to do? And I was like, well, I love having conversations with people, so I'm doing that. I turned out really liking writing a book, so I hope to do that again. And I just love speaking. I don't know why. It's just the place that I feel happy. And so, yeah, that's what I. That's what I want to do. And that's part of why I was like, okay, it's time now to write the book, because that often opens the door on that, and that's my real hope, is to do more speaking.

A (30:27)

Yeah. Love it, man.

B (30:29)

Yeah.

A (30:29)

I mean, you got a great story, and you've figured it out, and so sharing that is, like, you know, it's a great opportunity for you to impact the world with it.

B (30:36)

So.

A (30:36)

So, Eric, where can people go deeper with you? I want to thank you, first of all, for being vulnerable and sharing your story and also writing it, put it in a book, and all the episodes of your podcast that you committed to. I know how hard this can be to be consistent, but where can people go deeper with you?

B (30:53)

It's oneyoufeed.net that's all spelled out. O n e y o u f.

A (30:59)

E-E-D.net okay, folks, go check them out. Eric, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it, man.

B (31:04)

Thanks so much, C Rock. I appreciate it also. All right, Hank.

A (31:07)

Tell you while I wrap this up, folks, that's this episode of the what do you Made of Show with your boy C Rock and Eric Zimmer sharing what he's made of. Make sure you hit the subscribe follow button at the top of your favorite podcast platform. Keep coming back until next time. Be that one.