← What Are You Made Of?
What Are You Made Of?
The Process Over the Podium: Mental Toughness for Athletes and Entrepreneurs with Dr. Patrick Cohn
00:30:47
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to the what are you made of show. From that one studio, it's your boy, C Rock. Here I have Dr. Patrick Cohn with us and we're going to find out what he's made of today. Dr. Patrick, welcome to the show.
- [00:10]
B
Mike, thanks for having me. Excited to get going.
- [00:13]
A
Yeah, man, it's my pleasure to have you. And you know, do you podcast often as a guest?
- [00:18]
B
I do, I do a little podcasting where I answer questions from actual athletes and coaches. They're just four minute, five minute clips though.
- [00:27]
A
Okay, so that's your show that you do. Do you guest on a lot of shows?
- [00:32]
B
Sometimes, yeah, I do. Sometimes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [00:35]
A
No, I. I do both, obviously. And man, it's changed my life. Podcast guesting especially has just allowed me to reach so many more people, but also expand network and I. I really don't think that people can hit the potential they have in their area of expertise. If they don't, they're not doing one to two guests podcast appearance per week. I've seen it like over and over and over again, not just in my life. And so that's why I asked the question. I'm really curious how many people are actually doing that.
- [01:02]
B
You know, it's time consuming.
- [01:05]
A
It sure is. Yeah, it really is. And you know, the going on podcast isn't the time consuming part necessarily if you're doing one or two a week, because it's a 30 minute, 45 minute shows. But it's like the build up to that. How do you get on the show where does research and, you know, all that stuff. And that's where the time consuming part comes in. So I agree with you. I mean, um, so, all right, let's start the show the right way here. I always start with the same question. What are you made of?
- [01:30]
B
So I'm an entrepreneur, business owner. I'm a mental performance coach to athletes and day traders, and I'm a father and a survivor.
- [01:44]
A
Wow. Okay, we're going to dig into this. So let's. I want to start with the survivor part. That's the one that got me right away. Can you elaborate on that?
- [01:55]
B
So I've had some skin cancer, some melanoma, skin cancer over the years, which was successfully removed. And as of late, I had some lung cancer as well. And I did a partial lubectomy about two years ago. And so I've survived that as well. So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at with that.
- [02:21]
A
So, you know what's interesting about this is in your field and your expertise, you had to now face something yourself and then practice what you preach.
- [02:31]
B
So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the skills of being able to stay composed and be able to reflect on, you know, your life and your situation, and it really, you know, it gives you a different perspective, obviously, when you've had cancer and you come through on the other side and you want to do everything you can to maintain that health.
- [02:55]
A
Yeah, yeah. I've been there before where I've ran into adversity. After I was preaching and preaching about performance and. And, you know, talking to a lot of people about, look, your adversity. Right. When you're in the adversity, that's your time for growth. And you should be getting excited because as long as you keep going, things explain, always get brighter at the end of the tunnel, and you just got to keep going. And you should get excited during those times. And then I. Then I hit in university and I'm like, oh, this feels like crap. I hate this feeling, but let me get excited, you know, and you gotta switch it, you know, so it's a lot tougher to do it than it is to say it.
- [03:27]
B
Yes, very much so.
- [03:28]
A
Yeah. Yeah. All right. So. So how did you get into doing what you're doing? Like, where did that all start as a kid? Like, what did you want to be when you grew up?
- [03:39]
B
So I wanted to be a professional football player when I was growing up.
- [03:42]
A
Me too.
- [03:44]
B
Didn't happen. I didn't play in college. I did play lacrosse in college, so I was really into sports. And then what had happened was I got a degree in psychology, and then I got a degree in exercise science as an undergrad. And when you put the two together, you basically come with sports psychology. And I was turned on to a guy named Ken Revizza who was out at Cal State Fullerton. And Ken's the one that really got me excited about this whole area of mental performance. Coaching and working with athletes, being a mentor to athletes. This was back in the mid-80s, and I really love what I was doing out there. Getting my master's, and then I did a PhD at Virginia with Dr. Bob Rotella. So I've had some great mentors myself over the years and just have really enjoyed sports. And then once I started working with athletes and mentoring athletes on the mental game, I was hooked from there. It was because my passion is really helping others succeed. Mentoring others to become the best that they can be, or removing some of the mental barriers that don't allow them to get to the next level.
- [05:01]
A
Yeah. And when you first started, in order to build confidence in yourself, you had to see results in someone you were working with. Right. Do you remember the first time you started working with someone and did you see results right away or how did that all shape out?
- [05:14]
B
Yeah, I started working with the hockey team out in California. Yeah. It was the Cal State hockey team and also the softball team out there. And I saw some positive results with the players that I was working with, and that was really fulfilling to see them excel and succeed. And that's what I'm all about is, you know, I love to see others excel and succeed, especially if they've had challenges, they're in a slump, for example, or they've lost confidence or they feel like they're not going to get to the next level and you're able to help them get to the next level. That's a lot of fun.
- [05:53]
A
Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's the most fulfilling thing for me is, you know, I work with people in all aspects of life and really helping them go further, faster. That's what I say. Right. And I've made a lot of money in my life, Dr. Patrick, but it's not fulfilling compared to seeing other people succeed, and especially the ones that are just stumped. They're in a rut, like you said, the slump. And you finally get to show them some light at the end of the tunnel.
- [06:21]
B
Well, what's interesting is where I started today, I'm an entrepreneur, and most of us are going to do that. Most of the athletes are going to say, I'm a baseball player, a football player, first and foremost. Right. They tend to focus on the achievement and what they've achieved in their life, their role in their life. Right. Whether it's a business person or whether it's a day trader that I work with. Ultimately, they are motivated by success, certainly, but they're also motivated by having others see them as successful.
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A
Yeah.
- [06:58]
B
I want to see others to see me as a successful day trader, that I'm making a living out of this. I'm making money. So essentially then, athletes are walking around campus. As, you know, I'm the big man or woman on campus as that athlete Persona. Really where I should start with is I'm a person who happens to be a father. Right. Rather than, oh, I'm a successful entrepreneur in the area of mental performance coaching. And I'm sure you've had other guests talk about this quite a bit.
- [07:32]
A
Yeah, you know, I've interviewed over a thousand people, and the darkest times in people's lives is when they had an exit, they were an athlete and they stopped playing the sport. A veteran that's come back home and they lost their identity. Because what you're saying is they attached their identity to what they did, which is really their vehicle. It's not their identity. Right. And that. That sport or that company that they exited from was. Was too, you know, identifying. And, and so what I found was, and I started thinking about this. We really need to be more proactive in finding out who we are and then understanding what our vehicles are that we can get in. Because part of who you are in your identity is your mission. Where can I. What vehicle can I get into? Whether it's a business, a sport, what can I get into to go towards my mission? And if that crashes, slows down, I exit it, whatever. I just got to get out, recalibrate, and get into another vehicle.
- [08:31]
B
So important.
- [08:32]
A
So important.
- [08:33]
B
But that's not what. They don't teach you that in school. Coaches don't teach you that. Parents don't even teach you that. Well, I'm sure there's some parents out there that do teach that. You're taught from a very early age. It's about being successful in school, it's about being successful in sports, being successful in business. So people obviously latch onto that. Instead of what you just reiterated, it's the idea of finding out who is the person first and foremost and being happy with that person, happy in your own skin, and then using those other avenues as a vehicle.
- [09:13]
A
Yeah, yeah. You know, some people think, and they might hear this conversation and think, well, how can you be really great at something if you just don't go all in and identify with it and be obsessed with it?
- [09:24]
B
Yeah, great question. So you do. As an athlete, you are super dedicated. You are obsessed. Most of the successful athletes we work with are perfectionist, and they're perfectionist about their sport, and it has both advantages and disadvantages for them. But you can be all in, and you could be obsessed about success, but you can still be that person that just happens to be an athlete or a successful athlete. It's athletic. Athletics is what you do. It's not who you are.
- [09:58]
A
Yeah. Is it was greatness limited at all in the. The limiting attaching your identity to it? Like, can you actually be great, a Hall of Fame athlete without attaching your identity to that sport?
- [10:13]
B
Yes, I believe it's essential for athletes to do that. Otherwise they would simply go nuts. They would go crazy. Because every. For. For golfers, it's at every round where you shoot over par for a professional, it's like, oh, it's like a dagger in their heart and they take it home with them. Right. That's going to be very unhealthy. Right. You're more than a score when you get off the golf course. And I think that's an essential part of keeping that sanity for successful athletes that want to be great.
- [10:47]
A
Yeah. You know, A.J. brown plays for the Eagles. They won a Super bowl last year. And after the super bowl, he said it wasn't what I thought it would feel like. And you know, what I really liked was the journey doing it and this and that. But when I got here, it was like, eh, what's next kind of thing. So how often are you experiencing that with the athletes you work with? When they finally achieved the goal that they were going after, that wasn't what they thought it was going to feel like.
- [11:11]
B
Yes. So I do see that quite a bit with my athletes where they're striving for a goal. They see the goal, the goal is close in hand, and then they get there and it's like, oh, well, I was supposed to do that. Right. So it's somewhat anticlimactic because they feel like that was their purpose, to get there.
- [11:34]
A
Yeah, yeah. So how do you. How should they approach the process and understanding that where it doesn't take away from going after the goal because they know like, once they've done that before and they've seen what it felt like, that they're not less motivated to go after because they know when they get there, it's not going to be with that euphoric feeling.
- [11:53]
B
We're all about emphasizing the profit, the process in our work. And it's about climbing the mountain and it's not about getting to the top and say, you know, I've arrived. It's about those steps that you're taking to climb the mountain and some of the setbacks, dealing with those setbacks and adversity and being able to push through those and continue climbing. And so we really preach, when I say we, us at peak performance sports, we preach this notion of you're only as good as your process and how well you're able to stay focused one day at a time, one week at a time on improving your skills and going after those goals. Anybody can set a goal to be, oh, I want to be a world champion. Right. Or I want to win a golf tournament, for example. That's the easy part, Mike. It's the things that you have to do in order to get there. That, I think, separates the good from the great.
- [12:53]
A
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, it's the action. You know, faith and belief without action is just nothing, Right?
- [13:03]
B
Yeah. It's super simple to set goals.
- [13:05]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:07]
B
Long term goals, calm dream goals, whatever. It's a lot harder to grind it out day after day. You know, my mentor, Ken Revizza, rest his soul, great guy, loved by all the athletes that he worked with. You know, he would really say that it's not so much about being in the zone and having peak performance. It's more about the ability. 80 to 90% of the time, you're having to grind it out, you're having to adapt, you're. You need to adjust. You need to find a way to get it done. Most athletes don't realize that they want to be in the zone. They want to be performing at their peak all the time. And that's maybe 10% of the time.
- [13:57]
A
Yeah, yeah. And. And to think about that, only 10% of the time. And the other part is trying to get there.
- [14:04]
B
Yeah. Is just scrapping and grinding and clawing and doing everything you can to grind it out.
- [14:11]
A
Yeah. Well, I want to talk about the entrepreneur side of it. You know, our business that we have has done 100% increase in revenue from year over year. And we're growing, which is good. We come to the Thanksgiving break, and it's right in the middle of the week, of course, and things start to die down a little bit. We were on, like, a great trajectory, and it starts to die down a little bit. The momentum goes away. And when that happens, I know what's going on. I see what's going on, and I'm always assessing our process. But one thing I always. I have to handle myself is because I start attaching like it's a natural thing, and awareness is the first step of it. But I start attaching my worth and my value to. If we're hitting the numbers that we're supposed to be hitting, quote, unquote, the revenue, the, you know, whatever it is. And I. I go through this and I'm aware, and then I start taking action on it. Okay, wait a minute. I am enough. I'm. It doesn't take away from who I am. It's just something that we're going through, and we have to adjust and do the best we can to create momentum again. But I go through it myself as. As elevated that I've made myself. And all the work I put into myself, I still deal with that myself. So how would you handle that when you're, when you go to talk to someone and they come to you and they say, look, we hit a little slump, or it could be a batter in a slump. Right. A hitter in a. In a slump golfer that's not hitting the shots that they usually hit, whatever it might be. But let's talk about entrepreneurship. How would you talk to someone in that scenario?
- [15:36]
B
I would start by talking about or asking you, what are the advantages of that slump or that downturn? What is that additional time that you have that you're not grinding it out, where things slow down? What does that afford you?
- [15:54]
A
Yeah, that's great. That's great.
- [15:56]
B
Yeah. So you might say, well, I can reset. It's a chance to rest. It's a chance to maybe find some new guests for the podcast. It's a time to set goals for next year. So basically reframing in a way that works. And for us, it's about, we build workbooks that we use in our coaching for athletes. So it's a great time for us to refresh our library and put together some workbooks for athletes, revise our programs, simplify our programs, simplify our assessments, for example. So we need, this time, we need the slowdown because it really helps us reset some of the programs and the workbooks that we offer athletes.
- [16:46]
A
Yeah. You know, I look back on this past couple weeks and I thought about, what did I do? We optimized our systems. We saw how we could become more efficient. And then always in hindsight, I look back on those days, like over the years, and I say, you know what? Thank God we didn't get an influx of customers at the time because maybe our systems or process or fulfillment wasn't ready for that influx. And it gave us the time because things happen for a reason. And it gave us the time to build that so that when we went forward, we weren't underperforming. So, yeah, I absolutely love that. And you know, the other thing is, Dr. Patrick, sometimes we think, you know, it should work out the way we want it to. And I have a faith in a higher power. So it's really, to me, it's his way. And I have to be understanding the surrendering to whether, you know, and I know you may be secular in the work that you do. Maybe, I don't know. But when you work with athletes, they might come from all different belief systems, but at the end of the day, there's a time where you have to surrender to a higher powers way because we can't control everything. And it always seems to work out. And I have a saying, it always works out for me. So what am I concerned with.
- [17:53]
B
Meeting expectations? You have those expectations 100% year over year. Right. And you're focused on that expectation. Now, how is that different for you than goals? Expectations may be. Well, everybody in the organization expects us to be there. Maybe the public expects us to be there. Maybe you expect yourself to be there. It's different than goals. We spend a lot of time with athletes trying to get them to understand the difference between what we call strict or demanding expectations versus focusing on your goals and what you want to achieve. It's calm. The unwritten rules in the back of your mind that you have to. We call them the shoulds and the shouldn'ts as well. In our work, we should be able to go 100% year over year again. We should have a better year than last year. So it's a lot of those shoulds that creates havoc for traders, for business people and athletes alike.
- [18:52]
A
Yeah. So, okay, so then how do you work with them on that? Get rid of the should haves.
- [18:57]
B
So we identify what are your shoulds, what's creating pressure for you, what's causing you to focus too much on the outcome, too much on your stats, too much on the numbers. And then let's devise a plan for you to focus on what you need to do in the moment. When you're competing for a hockey player, it might be just one shift at a time, one possession at a time. Right. For a basketball player, it might be one scoring opportunity at a time. So we really get down to the nitty gritty and say, look, if you want to get there, then you're going to have to focus on one play, one shot at a time, and that's going to be the goal. So we define objectives around the process that replace those outcome expectations.
- [19:45]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Because, you know, a lot of times, like, who are. Who are you to say what should happen?
- [19:51]
B
Right.
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A
Like, and we try to control things that we can't. And you know what else happens too, Dr. Patrick, is we start to not appreciate how far we've come. You know, I don't know how many people out there actually take time to assess how far they've come and to be show some gratitude and gratefulness for the fact that you came this far and what you've accomplished.
- [20:10]
B
It's so massive. Yeah, it's so massive. And I think it does go back to expectations. You know, I was expected to get that scholarship. I was expected to get that job offer, I was expected to make so many winning trades a week. And then once you get there, it's like, oh, well, yeah, I'm supposed to do that. And so there is, as you say, there is very little gratitude as you climb the ladder and you achieve more and more. It's hard to have the gratitude because you think you set the goal. I was supposed to get there and achieve that goal.
- [20:47]
A
Yeah, great talk, man. I love that. I go deep with this stuff. So. All right, so in your life and your, in your journey to doing what you've done, what were some of the most difficult times for you? And, and what did you learn from them?
- [21:01]
B
So when I got of education, I was teaching sports psychology at the university level and then I decided, well, my passion is really working with athletes one on one and working with teams. And so I've got out of teaching. And then when I got started my business, it was Peak Performance Consultants back then in the early 90s, I want to say. And I floundered because, you know, I had all the education in the world, but I did not have a know how about how to be a business person. Now my, my dad was a business person, he was an entrepreneur, but it didn't apply really to what I was doing in my work. And so I didn't know where to find athletes to work with. I was struggling with that. I didn't know how to make money as a mental performance coach because back then, 30 years ago, it wasn't as well known as it is today. It's a lot more well received and recognized. So you had to go out and shake the trees, in essence, in order to, you know, build the business for yourself. So that was a really hard lesson for me. Like I had all this knowledge that I want to impart on athletes. I had a system. But then, okay, well how do I develop a business now?
- [22:31]
A
Yeah. And how. What to charge?
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B
Right, what to charge? Yeah. Who's the clientele? Where do I find the clientele?
- [22:40]
A
Yep, yep. I talk about that a lot. Like who are you serving, what problem are you solving? Where do they hang out? What's the communication lines you're going to use to reach them, where they hang out? And what's the message behind it that you're going to use on the communication line? And when you develop that, that's what creates that business, right? Yes.
- [22:57]
B
And absolutely. Luckily I met, I knew a guy where I grew up in East Roar, New York, which is in western New York. And he went to Oklahoma State and played was an NCAA champion and his dad asked me to work with him when he turned pro. And so thankfully his name is E.J. pfister.
- [23:20]
A
What sport?
- [23:21]
B
Jay really brought me along and introduced me to other golfers like Brian Watts and some other guys. And, and so that really launched my career. Is just getting one person really to champion for you.
- [23:33]
A
Yeah, yeah. And then network, right? It's. It's the network. So by the way, I'm a, I'm a single digit handicap. Go. I love golf and so I've been in some of the biggest pressure situations that you can be as an amateur. And yeah, the mental part of it's 90% of it, like it's so crazy. And when you get in, when you get in that zone and that flow, you're like, how could this ever be hard? Like how. What was I have. Was I having problems before when everything's working and you just want to get back to that place all the time. You're like, I just want to hit the ball like flush, you know. So yeah, man, that's. Now these. There's another thing nowadays with all the information out there with AI and social media and all this, everybody's become, you know, that, that wants greatness. They're paying attention to everything and they all these different modalities coming at them and they start to feel like they know everything and, and our role is trying to help people go further, faster and develop them. You run into some people that have these modalities that they come belief systems in their head and then you bring something to them and they're like, well yeah, I don't see it that way. And this is what I've learned. And they give you kickback and pushback on the thing that, you know, works because you've done it before. Right. But they feel like they know everything. How do you handle those situations?
- [24:49]
B
Biggest challenge for us is helping change the belief system for athletes. And it starts with some of the expectations that they have. Some of the self labels identifying what are those self labels. I'm a slow starter, I'm a poor closer, for example. And any other ineffective belief systems. A lot of the times, Mike, it comes from what we find is perfectionist has some very strict belief systems about how things should be done. Like you said, I should be able to hit this solid every time. But that's just not golf. Right. So working through those belief systems and those negative, what we call negative self labels and really strict or you might call them unrealistic or irrational expectations, that's one of the first place we start with our clients is getting them to understand how those belief systems are getting in the way. Like being very self critical, all or non thinking as a perfectionist, worrying too much about what others think as well, which is attached to perfectionism. So we help them identify how they might be tripping themselves with this ineffective belief system.
- [26:04]
A
Yeah, and I love that. And sometimes, well, most of the time when you're working with someone, there's a foundation that needs to be set and then you have to go over some of the fundamentals, the basics, right? And this person may be advanced to a certain degree, but they don't have their foundational thing in check. It's not routine, it's not muscle memory, like hitting off of tee. Major league baseball players still hit off a tee, right? Golfers still go in the range, hit thousands of balls, putts, making sure their stroke is perfect. The fundamentals, how's my grip? How's my stance? How's my mental game? Sometimes you get around people that have achieved something and then you go to work with them and you want to start with the fundamentals and the basics. And they, and they see that and they're like. And by the way this happens, seems like amateurs need novelty. They need some kind of complicated thing. It can't be that simple. So how do you handle it when you're working with someone and they are searching for novelty, but you know that the basics need to be, the T needs to be hit.
- [27:07]
B
Well, our value for athletes is we're simplifiers. We want to oversimplify things instead of make things more complex. If you're picking up, you know, every golf tip from every golf magazine, you're bouncing around to different instructors, for example, you're not making it simple for us. It's as simple as Mike, I want you to think about the ball going to the target. I want you to think about where the target is. Trust your body to hit it there. You have the motor memory, the muscle memory to be able to execute that shot. Let's get out of your own way. And that's what professional golfers are doing. They're trying to get out of their own way. They're trying to simplify it. So what we do is we simplify the game, but we give them a different way of thinking about when they're performing. It doesn't have to be that complex. We work with so many perfectionists that make things so complicated for themselves that they're in their own way.
- [28:12]
A
And so how do you get them to open up In a conversation where they're. They're doing that and they're searching for novelty, and they're like, Dr. Patrick, the stuff you're talking about is the simple, like, basic stuff. Like, I'm looking for something that's gonna. That, you know, how do you. What's the conversation like in that to get them to open up?
- [28:28]
B
Well, we start with an assessment. With them, it's just paper and pencil. They send us via email. And then we go through and we have what's called a discovery session. And in that discovery session, we drill down on what we feel like are the major challenges for that athlete. Whether it's fear of failure, for example, whether it's social approval, whether it's payback syndrome, where they have to be paid back for all their dedication and effort that they put into their sport, or their discipline, right from there, we basically tell them we're going to start with four basic mental skills. This is where we start with all our clients. This is going to cover a lot of some of the challenges that you might have with your game. And we don't want them to overcomplicate the mental game, or we don't want them to do things that are totally different than they're normally doing. We don't turn them on their head. Right. We just steer them and guide them a little bit in terms of their thinking prior to games and certainly during games, too, with confidence, composure, trust, focusing on the process is what we're trying to get them to do. So if they're looking for novelty, then they're not in the right spot because we're all about simplicity and helping. Just good thinking about their performance.
- [29:56]
A
Yeah, I love it. Well, look, I. I could go on for hours with you because I love this topic, but we're up against the clock. Where can people go deeper with you to find out more?
- [30:05]
B
They can find us@peaksports.com and. Yeah, and check out some of our articles, videos, podcasts, and contact us if you're interested in the coaching as well.
- [30:18]
A
And also on Instagram, I noticed that Sports psych coach. Sports psych coach on Instagram.
- [30:24]
B
Correct. Sports psych coach.
- [30:25]
A
All right, folks, go check him out. Check the company out. Good stuff. Thank you, Dr. Patrick Cohen. I appreciate you sharing what you're made of today.
- [30:33]
B
Nice to join you, Mike.
- [30:34]
A
All right, hang tight while I wrap this up, folks. Thank you so much for being here. This is the what do you made of show with your boy C Rock in that one studio. Keep coming back. Hit the subscribe follow button at the top of your favorite podcast platform and keep coming back. Until next time, be that one.