The Truth About Modern Men: Leadership, Loneliness, and Purpose with Michael Sartain

Summary

Podcast Summary:

What Are You Made Of? – “The Truth About Modern Men: Leadership, Loneliness, and Purpose” with Michael Sartain
Host: Mike “C-Roc” Ciorrocco | Guest: Michael Sartain | April 10, 2026

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Overview

This episode delves into the landscape of modern masculinity, what it means to be a man today, and the compounding effects of shifting cultural, technological, and social dynamics on men’s well-being, leadership, and relationships. Mike Sartain joins Mike “C-Roc” Ciorrocco to discuss the core essence of masculinity, the silent epidemic of male loneliness, challenges around dating and connection in the internet age, and the responsibilities and opportunities for today’s men to lead purposeful lives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining “What Are You Made Of?”: Service, Sacrifice, and Masculinity

• Sartain identifies himself through the lens of service, leadership, and a willingness to sacrifice for his tribe—whether as a former military officer, CEO, or mentor.
• Quote [02:45]:
  "Masculinity is a man willing to die for his tribe... It's the willingness to serve others. It's not the amount of money you have or how many women you sleep with." — Michael Sartain

2. The Problem with “Alpha Male” Debates

• Sartain critiques the internet’s obsession with high-value/alpha-male rhetoric, arguing that public discourse on masculinity is more helpful when focused on genuine service rather than abstract status markers.
• Quote [01:10]:
  "I really wish we would stop having that debate because I do think it's, it's not helpful..." — Michael Sartain

3. The Loneliness and “Falling Behind” of Modern Men

• Growing numbers of men go without romantic or sexual connection—a marked jump in the age of smartphones.
• Data shared:
  • Pre-smartphone: 12-14% of men went a year without sex
  • Now: 33%
• Male suicides: 4 out of 5 people who die by suicide are men.
• Divorce: Divorced men, especially those zeroed out financially, are 9x more likely to die by suicide.
• Quote [04:08]:
  "There's a massive group of men that are falling behind... If you go to a morgue and see people who've taken their own life, four out of five will be men." — Michael Sartain

4. Myths about Men’s Self-Improvement Content

• Sartain refutes the assertion that male self-improvement content breeds misogyny or violence, noting that much opposition is driven by selective outrage and misrepresentation.
• Quote [06:00]:
  "...If you think people listening to [Joe Rogan or Andrew Huberman] makes them violent towards women, that's just utter lunacy." — Michael Sartain

5. Free Speech and Social Media Backlash

• Sartain defends open debate—even with those who disagree or distort his positions, emphasizing that protecting free speech is vital.
• He critiques cancel culture and the tendency to deplatform voices rather than engage them honestly.
• Quote [08:11]:
  "Freedom of speech also means stupid speech... The more they're allowed to talk, the more I can hear how stupid they are." — Michael Sartain

6. The Hidden Cost of Social Media and Dating Apps

• Social media and dating apps have disrupted traditional socialization—especially for young men.
• Book references:
  • The Anxious Generation (Jonathan Haidt): Impact of smartphones on Gen Z
  • Of Boys and Men (Richard Reeves): Systemic decline in male educational and socio-economic outcomes
• Negative effects:
  • Social isolation, increased rates of ADHD, depression, and anxiety
  • Dating apps give disproportionate attention to a small cohort of high-status men; average men are increasingly excluded from romantic opportunity.
• Quote [15:21]:
  "The number one complaint I get... is, 'I don't know where to meet women.'" — Michael Sartain

7. Gender Gaps and Overcorrection in Education

• 68% of college graduates are now women; men are increasingly disengaged from higher education.
• Sartain challenges conspiratorial thinking about gender equity policies, arguing the real issue is institutional neglect and lack of nuanced discussion.
• Quote [20:06]:
  "...We've just overcorrected in the other direction. In 1974, 15 percentage points more men went to college than women. By 2019, 14 percent more women than men." — Michael Sartain

8. Escaping the Echo Chamber—Critical Media and AI Literacy

• Sartain recommends intentionally following voices one disagrees with (across the political spectrum) and using multiple AI tools to get a balanced view.
• Advice [23:17]:
  "Use six different AI tools... Grok, Chat GPT, Perplexity, Deep Seek, Gemini, and Chat GPT... have them compete for accuracy." — Michael Sartain

9. Policy, National Security, and the Crisis of Unaddressed Male Issues

• The male well-being crisis is largely ignored in political discourse, partly because it doesn’t poll high or “move the needle” for elections.
• Sartain’s one-issue vote: protection of free speech and opposition to unwarranted social media deplatforming.
• Advocacy for banning smartphones for kids under 16–17 due to developmental risks.
• Quote [27:57]:
  "If there was one issue I would vote for any candidate on, it's making smartphones illegal for children... We should be, this should be against the law." — Michael Sartain

10. Harnessing Social Media for Good

• Sartain coaches men to use social media as a tool—not for consumption, but to foster real-life networks, personal growth, and connection.
• He predicts AI-generated influencers will eventually disrupt the virtual sex work economy, potentially changing the incentives for young women.

11. The Evolution of Male Relevance and Performance Across Ages

• Sartain describes clients aged 19 to 78, noting that scientific and social advances (TRT, peptides, macro counting, etc.) allow older men to remain fit, active, and attractive.
• Quote [35:38]:
  "We've created so many relevant men in their 50s, 60s and 70s... because of things like TRT and peptides." — Michael Sartain

12. The Reality of Attraction and Relationship Dynamics

• Sartain argues that, for women, a man’s desirability is amplified by his attractiveness to other women—a phenomenon known in evolutionary psychology as mate choice copying.
• He warns against the “nice guy” fallacy, asserting that goodness and ethical conduct won't keep a partner if she perceives her man as lacking wider desirability.
• Quote [40:08]:
  "If I want to be really, really, really good to a beautiful woman and she doesn't think other women want me, she will walk all over me and punish me for it." — Michael Sartain
  "Women will find you more attractive if other women find you attractive... If you want to debate me on this, I will embarrass you." — Michael Sartain

13. Improving Marriages by Self-Development

• Sartain notes that his program’s core principles have helped married clients reignite connection and save their relationships by focusing on self-improvement and status.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Service and Masculinity
  [02:45]
  "Masculinity is the willingness to serve others. That ultimately is it." — Michael Sartain

• On Men’s Loneliness
  [04:08]
  "If you go to a morgue and see people who've taken their own life, four out of five will be men." — Michael Sartain

• Freedom of Speech
  [08:11]
  "...Freedom of speech also means stupid speech..." — Michael Sartain

• Social Media’s Toll on Youth
  [15:37]
  "This is the softest, most feminine group of 20-year-olds I've ever seen... People born after 1995 got cell phones through puberty." — Michael Sartain

• On Dating Apps and Socialization
  [17:35]
  "The number one complaint I get from these guys right now... is I don't know where to meet women." — Michael Sartain

• AI for Research
  [23:17]
  "Use six different AI tools... have them compete with each other for accuracy." — Michael Sartain

• On Outdated Policy and Parenting
  [27:57]
  "If there was one issue I would vote for any candidate on, it’s making smartphones illegal for children under 16." — Michael Sartain

• Impact of Biohacking and TRT
  [35:38]
  "We've created so many relevant men in their 50s, 60s and 70s because of things like TRT and peptides." — Michael Sartain

• Mate Choice Copying
  [40:18]
  "...if she doesn't think other women want me, she will walk all over me... It is an immutable fact that women will find you more attractive if other women find you attractive." — Michael Sartain

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Memorable and Impactful Moments

• The Playboy model story [09:57], illustrating the dangers of out-of-context viral clips shaping public perception and the need for long-form listening before judging.
• Sartain’s candid assertion that self-improvement content, when misunderstood or politicized, becomes a lightning rod for attack from both sides—but that he welcomes this challenge as a champion of free speech.
• The frank talk about Eros, OnlyFans, and virtual sex work’s socioeconomic impacts [32:02].
• The practical advice to parents and policymakers about outlawing smartphones for kids [27:57].
• Sartain's data-driven approach—citing books, research, and demographic shifts—not just anecdote or opinion.

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Resources & Further Reading Mentioned

• The Anxious Generation – Jonathan Haidt
• Of Boys and Men – Richard Reeves
• “Sextion” by Deborah So
• Research by William Costello (University of Texas at Austin)
• AI tools: Grok, Chat GPT, Perplexity, Deep Seek, Gemini
• Trustpilot reviews for Sartain’s “Mode of Action” program

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Where to Find Michael Sartain

• YouTube & Instagram: Michael Sartain
• Twitter: Sartain podcast
• TikTok: Michael Sartain Podcast
• Testimonials: moamentoring.com/testimonials
• Verified reviews: Trustpilot (search Michael Sartain)

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Final Thoughts

Michael Sartain brings a mix of data, real-world experience, and unapologetic directness to discussions about modern masculinity, the unintended consequences of technological and cultural change, and the urgency for men to reclaim in-person connection, self-improvement, and leadership rooted in genuine service. For listeners—male and female—looking to understand the “ingredients” that build resilience and relevance in today’s world, this episode offers a candid, sometimes controversial, and highly practical roadmap.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome back to the what do youo Mado show. It's your boy C. Rock here, and I'm here with Mike Sartain. I've been watching this content for a while, and he mentioned something that he gets a lot of crap about it, too. I said he had great content, and I could see why when I was watching it. I'm like, oh, he's probably going to get a bunch of crap. But. But you know what if you're not doing something, you know, if you're. I mean, if you're doing something, you're going to get some crap. And. But. But the impact that. That he's having in some people's lives is. Is the most important thing to me. So, Mike, welcome to the show, man.

[B]

Hey, man, thank you for having me on.

[A]

Yeah, my pleasure. It's always a pleasure to have great people on here that are doing cool things. And this is just people I would want to hang out with, you know? And so, yeah, man, let's get into it. The first question I start the show with is an esoteric question. It's the namesake of the show, and it's, what are you made of?

[B]

What am I made of? That's a. That's a tough one. I'm made of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Golly, man, I get this. So here's. Here's the reason why I. I hesitate on this one. I know what I want to say. The problem is so many people in my space say really stupid whenever they're asked questions about this, about alpha male and masculine this and that. And I don't. I don't. I don't prescribe to that. I think what I'm made of, what I know internally is that I'm going to do the best until the day that I die to try to help and alleviate as much suffering, especially for this one particular group of people, as I can. That's the thing that I'm made of. And I also know. And listen, you know, I served in the military for seven years. I'm made of an individual who's willing to die for my tribe and, and willing to serve other people, especially the. The people that I work with. I own this company, and I will tell you, my goal every day is to try to be the biggest servant I can to the people that I work with. I don't call my employees. They're my teammates. And I had one of my closers hit me up yesterday and he said, hey, man, I did 9 million in sales for this one company and I couldn't get the CEO on the phone for more than 15 minutes and I had to schedule a call with him two months out in advance. He's like, I sent you loom video requests for clients that we're going to close, and you gave me like six of them in one night. I was like, I've never seen anything like this. And my company's bigger than the company he used to work for. And, and I explained to him, I was like, you know, Jocko Willock, he says it probably the best is my job is to, is to serve other people. So I, I, you know, there's this massive debate online. What's a high value man? What's alpha male? I really wish we would stop having that debate because I do think it's, it's not helpful because the way, no matter what we say, it's going to be bastardized and straw man. The answer is to me is masculinity is a man willing to die for his tribe. Masculinity is the willingness to serve others. That ultimately is it. It's not the amount of money you have or how many women you sleep with. It is the willingness to like, undoubtedly serve others and then ask for nothing in return. Come home, understand that you were willing to kill the lion in order to protect the tribe, but you still don't get the big piece of chicken when you come home and you just, but it doesn't change the fact that you still have to take care of your kids and your family. I think that's what masculinity is. And so if you want to know, like, what I'm made of, I think it would be that it would be service to other people. Whether it's the, the philanthropies that I work for, the people that I work for at my work, or, you know, just other people in general who are in my life who I, who I want to serve.

[A]

Great answer, great answer.

[B]

What?

[A]

Is that what you wanted to say?

[B]

I mean, what did you want? I mean, what I wanted, what I wanted to say, I mean, honestly, is masculinity is, is men willing to go downstairs and kill somebody who invades the house. But like, the problem is as soon as I say that, it just, it gets so convoluted and just so it, it. My, my whole program is based around. There's a great book just came out called Sextion by Deborah, so. And ba. Basically, there's. I'm going to. Long story short, back before cell phones, the amount of men who would go a year without sex was around 12, 14%. A year, that's how much that would happen. And then when cell phones came out, that number shot up to 23% very quickly. And now, and we were told by a bunch of these people who hated manosphere content, who hated red pill content, that we in the red pill. I'm not red pill. I'm red pill adjacent, maybe. But we in the manosphere were sitting there trying to deliberately disenfranchise men so that they would get angry at women. And they said, this 23% number is, it's an anomaly and the number's going to go back down. And so now Deborah so, who is a PhD at York University in Toronto, she writes a book, the number's now 33%. And so because of this constant lack of admission that there is a problem, that there's a massive group of men that are falling behind. And I know there's some people who are listening here that are like, boo hoo, men are falling behind. Who cares? If that's your answer, I have nothing to say to you. If you have no empathy for men who suffer, go for it. Like, it's fine. Live your life. Enjoy. Enjoy the cruelty and sadness that you get for the rest of your life. But if you do have empathy for other people, then you might understand that if you go to a morgue and you see people who've taken their own life, four out of five of them are going to be men. And if you see a man who's been divorced and he's been zeroed out financially, he's nine times more likely than the average population to delete himself. And so there's an issue there, and that's, that is one of a derivative of many issues that are going on. Additionally, there's all this talk about this type of content that makes men aware of things and helps them level up somehow increases the level of violence towards women. Again, debunked. Sit. Thoroughly debunked. William Costello from University of Texas at Austin, he writes a paper specifically on this topic. And then instead of, instead of acknowledging the paper, Netflix comes out with this piece of propaganda called Adolescence, which shows that people who listen to male self improvement content, because that's what I'm going to call it. It's not even manosphere, just regular. When you, when you start talking about Andrew Huberman and Joe Rogan are in the manosphere, that's just male self improvement content.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Chris Williamson is just male self improvement content. If you think that when people listen to those things that it makes them violent towards women is just Utter and complete lunacy. But what it is, it's, it's a way of becoming so offended and, and creating punishments that are so severe, canceling someone, that it's a way for the other side to take back control. And that's essentially what's going on. One more thing. What am I made of? I'm made of protecting free speech. I debate idiots like flat Earthers all the time. I have a debate with a guy who, who didn't, who doesn't believe we landed on the moon next week. Now, I understand there's a big difference between those two things, but I, I'm, I'm former US Air Force officer. I know we landed on the moon. I could prove it several different ways without using any photography. We did land on the moon in 69. And so I'm having a debate with this guy and I'm having to debate later on tomorrow with a guy talking about cold approach pickup versus social circle with different debates like this. I, I, no matter what happens afterwards, after I wipe the floor with these dudes, I'm going, they're going to make reaction videos. They're going to take me out of context, they're going to do all kinds of stuff. And even when people take me out of context or deliberately mislead others, I don't think they should platform deplatform. There's several content creators who've made videos about me that are just blatantly false. And I don't think they should be deplatformed. I don't think. And no matter how crazy the you have to say is, you should not be deplatformed. When I. Freedom of speech is so important and it's so integral. It's the difference between US and Russia, US and China, US and Iran. The fact that we have total freedom of speech. Every time you see, no matter how much you support or hate the President of the United States, when you see other people criticizing him and getting really personal, just know you can only do that because you live in a free society. Be grateful that you live in a free society and stop trying to censor people who say things that you don't agree with. Often people say horrible things about me that are not. There's a video out there saying that I didn't serve in the military. There's another video saying that I'm, I'm not, that I lie about my height, that I'm actually 5 foot 8. There's videos out there, by the way, all kinds of stuff.

[A]

There's nothing wrong with five Eight, five, seven, ish. Okay.

[B]

I'm just. I'm just reporting what it says on my military. Like. Like on my military. My DD4, 214. I'm six foot one. Yeah. But, like, there's all these videos just, like, constantly accusing. There was another video. I'm, I'm. I'm. My, My charities or frauds, whatever. No matter how many lies that they want to tell, I don't. I'm not asking for them to be deplatformed, no matter how much you say. And I think it's really, really important for people to grasp that is that freedom of speech also means stupid speech. I think the more that people who I disagree with get to talk openly without being deplatformed, demonetized, or ratioed, I think the more they're allowed to talk, the more that I can hear how stupid they are. And it causes me to not vote for this guy. Oh, this guy sounds like he's got some great ideas. Oh, and he thinks the earth is flat. Cool. Not gonna vote for him. Like, I know now. And I. I want people to. The more freedom of speech you allow, the more people are allowed to expose themselves and tell themselves. So that's why I think we cannot in any way. We don't need to abandon, obviously, defamation, libel, slander, that kind of stuff, or, you know, putting someone's life in jeopardy. Those things you have to, you can't do. But other than that, I do think I'm very, very pro freedom of speech.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I agree 100%. And I got to touch on a couple of things here. Number one, it's not the people that you're debating or the people that are putting stuff out there and having a problem with your content that are. That are dangerous. It's the people that listen to them. Those are the people that matter. And then when you're debating. And the other thing I want to touch on, when you're debating someone, you're not going to change their mind. However, it's the people watching it. Again, same thing. It's the people that are watching or listening that matter. Those people don't matter. You know, and. And I. When I push stuff, I don't really care. I really don't care what people think. I just do what I do. Yeah, but because I know where I'm coming from. You have, you know, where your heart is. You know, you're. You're a servant and a protector, period. And if you know that and you're convicted in that, then who cares? You know, but it's the people that listen. And that's the heart you're trying to win, right?

[B]

Often one girl, she comes up to me and she's a huge Playboy model. I was at a party and she, she came up to me, she's this girl's stunningly beautiful and she goes, hey, listen, I really don't like your content. I was like, why don't you like my content? He goes, I just think the stuff that you teach is like harmful. You know, I have kids and I'm divorced and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, well, I didn't say anything bad about you being divorced or having kids or whatever. And then I go, hey, come over here and meet my girlfriend. She goes, you have a girlfriend? I was like, yeah, yeah, come over here, meet my girlfriend, meets my girlfriend, falls in love with her, and then just ends up spending the rest of the night following the two of us around. And then later on starts liking all my posts. And the reason why is because she had never seen any of my content long form. She had only seen my content. She'd only seen my content in short, 30 second clips. And a lot of the clips, I would say the majority of the clips that you guys watch of me, I didn't make those. Some, somebody else made them and they make, they made them to be punchy. They didn't make them to be accurate, they made them to be punchy. And, and so she, you know, a lot of stuff that said is taken out of context by the way we post clips a lot of times that I didn't make also. And so, you know, it was one of these things where it's like, they don't like you. Some of my biggest fans are people who just didn't like me originally. But I just really do feel like I have a burden to the truth. I just really think that that. And, and it is a truth that often offends other people. And the truth doesn't matter what my religion or ethnicity is. Just like when it was 1636 or no, 1632, Galileo goes to the Pope and claims that the earth is round or the earth goes around the sun. Sorry. And it was heretical in the Catholic Church to believe that. And he was put on house arrest for the rest of his life for saying something that was true. And so that's kind of how I feel when it comes to the data that we have on sociology and evolutionary psychology that really shows said, hey, because of things like Title IX and dei, that men have gotten into a place where it's almost untenable for people to have a family. Men cannot afford to, you know, to do certain things. And in part, it's one of these things where uplifting women is terrific, and I'm all for it. The problem is uplifting women, specifically with the intent to disenfranchise men is a problem. And that's, that's the place that we've gotten to at this place where, I don't know if you're aware of this, 68% of college graduates now are female. That's. It's wonderful that more women are going to College. But when 68% of college graduates are female, and in most large metropolitan areas, women under 30 out earn men, eventually you get to a point where these women who are not interested in men, who make less money than them, don't have anyone to go out with. And you have a massive group of men, tens of millions of men who can't get a date ever. And so that's. That's the place that we're in right now is we've sort of created this. This problem.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And when you're working with men, what's the number one thing you. You, you see most common thing you see with them? You know, I think a lot of people, you know, don't realize that they can cause and create the life they want. They just don't realize that. Yeah, they're programmed against that. Right. And my.

[B]

Mike, how old are you?

[A]

49.

[B]

Okay, 48. So you and I are about the same age. And Mike, do you remember what it was like? So you probably didn't get a cell phone until you were probably 24 somewhere around there.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Early 20s.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, cool. And. And then no smart, no smartphone until you're like 30 years old. Yeah, that's the first, you know, 2008, the first time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So because of that, the way our brain developed, we developed by you probably just like me, went on your got on a bike with your friends, rode off into the woods and shit, growed off on railroad tracks. You would, you would sit there in the summer, just ride your bike for miles, talk to your friends, talk, shit horse around, throw a football, all this kind of stuff. Right. You probably grew up, probably were in a fight at some point in your life, and the next day you guys didn't pull a gun on each other. You know what I'm saying? Do you remember, like, I don't know if you remember, like, in the early 2000s, I used to be. I was a bouncer at Amazon shot Bar in 2000 in Austin, Texas on 6th Street. And guys would get into brawls, huge fights. And the next day they would come back and be like, hey man, I left my ID here. And everyone would shake hands and no one would call the police. That's how it used to be. There used to be every guy I know who knew how many times they could bench press 225. Every guy I know had been in a. Like, there was different things. Every guy knew wanted to play high school football when I was growing up. Now it's like, I look at these kids and I'm like, yo, what, what is this? Like, this is not. This is the softest, like most feminine group of 20 year olds I've ever seen in my entire life. And, and so the world was different. One of the things is a great book on this called the Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, who talks about people born after the year 1995 got cell phones through puberty. That was the first generation to get cell phones through puberty. And that is essentially what created cancel culture on college campuses. So when the college campuses would have a in that they didn't like, then they would cancel the speaker. That all started around 2014, somewhere around that area. So 2014, this is a. These are not. These 1995 kids are now 19 years old, they're sophomores in college. And then that's when the, the cancel culture 2013, 2014 begins. And so there's just incredible damage that has happened to people because they're addicted to their cell phones. It causes high levels of depression, anxiety, adhd, things like that that are happening. And so that, that's the thing. Because of that happening, because also of the zoomification. You and I are talking on Riverside right now. You know, it used to not be like this. You can go 4K, you can stream 4K 60 frames a second on Riverside now, right? You can film a podcast. We used to not be able to do this, but because of the zoom ofication of business and the way people meet each other, additionally social media, additionally dating apps. Dating apps, I think are the ultimate scourge. They're probably worse than anything else. And then additionally dating apps are the worst because dating apps do to a woman's mind because of the dopamine release, similar to what a man's addiction to pornography does. Whereas a woman is going to get hundreds and hundreds of matches. Like a woman gets about 7 on the average woman gets about 17 times more matches than the average man on a dating app. Because of that then it really colludes and changes the value of what she, she thinks she can get. So, and then also causes her to become just say, well, I'm going to use my sexuality in order to get more men to pay attention to me. Which is not the way to find a good partner. And, and so the dating apps are, are. It's very easy to see how pornography is ruining men's minds. It's very difficult to understand how dating apps actually ruin a woman's mind. It's very similar type of dopamine release. Yeah. And, and so, so now we get into this place where all these things I said before. So dating apps, virtual sex work, social media, the, the COVID lockdowns and the zoomification of business, it's caused it where we're not meeting in person anymore anywhere near to the point that we were before. In, in most cities you see in New York, maybe not Miami, Miami and Vegas, no. But the rest of the country, nightlife is dying. Los Angeles nightlife doesn't exist anymore. It's, it's, it's just dying all over the place. And so people meeting up in real life is happening less and less. And as a result, when you think about it, who suffers more from that? Interperson interactions over time help. Who does it help? More men who need to work on the personality or women who are really beautiful? Well, the reality is women who are really beautiful are going to be beautiful in person or online. Men who don't get to meet other people and work on eye contact, shaking hands, have a big booming voice. All those things, those are things you have to work on in person. And that's being lost. And because it's being lost, it's, it's, it's, it's really hurting men. And because of that, the number one complaint I get from these guys right Now I'm at 4400 clients. The number one complaint is I don't know where to meet women. Whereas when you or I were what, what city did you grow up in?

[A]

I grew up outside of Philly.

[B]

Okay, so in Philly I'm sure there's a, there's a row of bars and nightclubs that you can go to. I'm not that, I'm not that familiar. Yeah, just like, yeah, in, in all in Austin, Texas we had 6th street in Austin. In Los Angeles we have Hollywood and there's, it was nightclubs in Hollywood. Here in Las Vegas, it's the whole city. Like there's like last night I went to Omnia with some Friends of mine and got, we got a table right on the dance floor. They gave it to us because we're locals and, and there's the places to meet up. We understood when we were growing up where those things are that's been lost. That communal nature that led to an average guy meeting an average woman and then getting married and have kids, that's gone now. Instead what it's being replaced by is a globalized sexual marketplace where women, average women can compete for the highest status man, but the other, the opposite is not possible. Average men. If you, you and I can message Sydney Sweeney and Megan Fox all we want, she's not going to answer. But you will see a girl who works at, you know, Hooters on the weekend and she messages Machine Gun Kelly and he will answer. So that's, that's the main difference of what I'm talking about. And it's caused this massive disenfranchement. Disenfranchement has caused there to be a huge imbalance. And, and that's why we see, you know, the lowest marriage rate and the lowest birth rate in history is partially because of that and the, you know, suicide rates increasing per capita based in comparison to the population with a certain cohort of men.

[A]

Now, based on this, do you think that this is an intended con consequence or was it unintended? But they just wanted to attract people to. For selling money, but not. They weren't thinking that they wanted to destroy men.

[B]

Number yeah, number one, to be fair, the cell phones actually hurt women more than men. Women suffer from depression at about, I believe, twice the rate that men do. So this is the number one thing I debate with other red pill content creators. Like, if you want to say, like, where do. Rolo Tomasi is one of my best. I'm going to say, where do he and I diverge the most? It's that he believes that things like feminism and Title 9 and, you know, hormonal birth control were, you know, there was a sort of a nefarious plot to disenfranchise men that's been plotted out for the last 50 years. And I don't think so. I think it's, I think it's negligence. I think it's just a situation where it's like you turn the faucet on. You know, just, just imagine you turn the faucet on in your tub and you just go off and read a book and then you come back in the, in the faucet. The tub is now flooded, the entire bathroom. I think that's what happened in the situation where we tried to get more women into STEM and to get bachelor's degrees. And in doing so, we got to a point where like, universities were so incentivized to let more women in that we got to the point where men just didn't see a reason to go to college anymore. And that's, that's the place that we got to now. And so we've just overcorrected in the other direction. Just to give you an understanding. 1974, I believe there are 15 percentage points more men going to college than women. By 2019, there's 14 percentage points more women than men going to college. They fared surpass men. And now the numbers even growing even further in, in places like, like therapy, right? Therapists or psychologists. Psychologists under 30, 95. Women. Like again, it's. I, I don't have a problem with women becoming therapists. It's just there might be a place where I'm going through something and I'd like a male therapist. I think that's okay. I think that's reasonable. Ask that he might understand certain questions and tribulations of heterosexuality that she can't help me with. That's the only thing I'm saying. And we've kind of lost that in general. And if you really want to read a very, very educated, very moderate, articulate argument on this subject, please read of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves. He's a professor at the Brookings Institute and he's also the president of the, of the. Or the president of the foundation of Boys and Men. I believe that's what it's called. And if you listen to his book, he goes over things like the pay wage gap. The pay wage gap is actually a child care gap. It does, it definitely does exist, but it exists because women in general are the caregivers for children. And they even tested this in lesbian couples. Same thing. The caregivers of the children, they make less money than the, than the lesbian partner who goes out and works. So it's not, it's not a, it's not a nefarious, misogynistic, patriarchal sort of conspiracy to hold women down. That's not the case. And so the discussion breaks down a lot of times, Michael, when men start thinking women have this nefarious plan to disenfranchise them. And then when women think that any man who's discussing male self improvement hates women and is a misogynist, then once we get to that point, there's no more discussion. And you Want to know who very much intends for you to not have this discussion and to say in your little bubble of hate, social media algorithms do. Your social media algorithm is specifically programmed to, to show you content that either enrages you or, or confirms what you already believe. And that's one of the reasons why I consistently try to follow content creators who I abhor. I don't hate them personally. The things that they say I absolutely disagree with. I follow them constantly. And these are not great examples. But like young Turks, msnbc, several different feminists, or content creators like I might, you know, you might follow like Wizard Liz or Shira7 or people who just keep espousing nonsense. But Chris, Justin Baldoni would be a great example. Someone who just says things that are just patently false. I follow these content creators. Harry Sisson, follow him on Twitter, whatever. I don't follow him because I care about his content. I just want the algorithm to stop putting me in a, in an echo chamber.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And actually give me different points of view.

[A]

Yeah, I'm the same way. I'm the same way television news. I look at everything because I don't, I don't want to be sucked in and think I'm falling for something. You know, I want to make sure.

[B]

Let me say one other thing for sure. A lot of people do research using AI tools. I definitely recommend that. But use six different AI tools at least. I would recommend you use Grok, Chat GPT, Perplexity. I recommend you use Deep Seek, Gemini and Chat GPT. I recommend you use all six. And I often ask questions to all six within the course of a week. And I actually almost in, in a way of have having them compete with each other to see which one is more accurate. And the measurements are always changing. But like whatever bias like Gemini is probably the most woke, the most liberal. Grok is probably the most non woke, not. Definitely not conservative, but they're not, they're not quite as woke in somewhere on that scale. If you ask all of them to interpret what the data is that the data that you are looking at, you're going to get probably a more accurate answer by asking multiple AI models and having them compete with each other for accuracy.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. I would love to debate you on something. I haven't, haven't had a thing to debate you on yet. Now, now the thing, the thing I wanted to talk about though is net national security. Like one of the things that was brought up and you know, political parties should pick this up. What we're Talking about here with men and women, with the effects of men and women on this because, like, just like protecting the border, you know, shutting down the border and handling immigration or, you know, taking care of America's interests first, whatever it is.

[B]

Right, yeah.

[A]

Voter, Voter ID laws like this, these are important issues, but this issue is not being brought up. Health. Make America, Maha. Make America healthy again. This issue's not being brought up. Why do you think that is? Don't you think that this is an issue of, like, keeping the existential threat to United States?

[B]

So, so what? It. It has to matter for politicians specifically to get reelected for it to matter for the discussion to happen? Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[B]

Right. So, so what, what I mean by that is, so, for instance, the reason why we went to the moon from 69 to 72 and then stop going to the moon is because Russia gave up. Russia quit. They're ding, ding, ding. You know, in wrestling when the guy waves his hand and he taps out, Russia tapped out. They gave up. They thought they sent one lunar lander that, that was unmanned probe to the moon. That was it. They quit. Because they quit, we quit. And so it's the same type of situation when you ask the question about make America healthy again, if they were polling people in people. And so because the majority of Americans right now are obese, the idea of let's make everybody skinny, that's not a winning platform to win an election on. I, of course I agree with you, Mike. Of course that's what we should be talking about. Well, when you talk about politicians, politicians are going to look. How do I get my base and people in the MO and people who are moderates to vote for me in these elections? And that's essentially what's going on. Voter ID is obviously the stupidest debate in history. It is the most asinine, most ignorant debate. There's several things I enjoy debating. One of them is moon landing deniers. Another one is, is whether or not, you know, men are actually suffering in society. But one of my favorite debates is, is. Is voter id. It's a hilarious debate because the, the. They always go to. Well, if you have them show their id, then it disenfranchises the poor, the elderly and minorities. And I was like, well, I'm just curious, does Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany, the United Kingdom, does France, Spain, are they. Are any of those nations, any of those nations capable of having free and fair elections? And the answer is obviously yes. I was like, well, they all have voter id. How come we don't have voter id. And then you have Chuck Schumer straight up saying, well, we want these illegal immigrants or documented immigrants to be able to vote in federal elections. That's the only. That's the only. If you guys are listening to anyone who opposes voter id, just understand they are either ignorant or willfully trying to deceive you. This is just a one sided argument, but yet people don't want to have this argument. Why? Because it really doesn't move the needle enough to get you voted into office. And it really should. I mean, it's one. You want to know something? I'm a, I'm a one issue guy pretty much when it comes to election. I look at the two candidates, I say, which one is more pro free speech? And that's generally who I vote for. The other thing is I look at the two candidates and I say, which one is more likely to hold social media companies accountable when they suspend or deplatform people for no reason? And that's the one that I vote for. Okay, Definitely not Harris. And Kamala Harris in the last election, she was very pro controlling social media agencies and deplatforming people. So that's why I'm not, not in favor of that. And so, you know, what you're going to find in all these situations is, you know, we were just talking about a second ago. Hold on, I lost my train of thought here.

[A]

Well, no, why, why, why? This isn't a political issue and.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so, so it's, it's not that big of a political issue. If there was one issue I would, I would vote for any candidate on is if they would make cell phones illegal for children between, like no smartphones until a child is 16 or 17 years old. Make it federal legislation that like parents could be held liable for allowing kids to be on smartphones. I didn't. You can give them dumb phones, they can still text their friends. I'm fine with kids playing video games with other kids online. I'm fine with that. But giving them smartphones where they have access to pornography when they're like 11, 12 years old is absurd. And the fact that I have to make this argument is absurd. We should be, this should be against the law for, for children going through puberty to be looking at this level of stimulus and ruining their brains. And so like that. That's something that obviously there's no argument against it. Every time I talk to people about this, they always agree with me. And the only people who will disagree with me Are, you know, kids who are freshmen in high school, they're not going to agree with me, of course, but everyone else will. And, and it's one of these situations where like what while I'm saying is empirically true and impossible to argue against, it doesn't really move the needle when it comes to voters. And so it's really not going to get a, a bunch of. I think this is something you could pass bipartisan if somebody put some, some meat behind it, you know, some put, put some effort behind it. But I mean that's, that to me is probably the most important struggle that we're going through is like how do we. When you look at the rewiring of the human brain through puberty, when you give them smartphones, it's really it. You start to backwards, you start to reverse engineer and start to realize that almost every problem in our society comes from that one thing.

[A]

Give us some good news, bro. What are you seeing that's changing or revolving? Or is there a cycle that we're coming back around? Like, give me something.

[B]

Yeah, as far as good news, I do think the, the because social media has become so prevalent, if men understand how to use it in their favor. So I don't, I use social media to be social. I don't use social media to doom scroll. And also I'm a social media producer. I'm not a social media consumer. And so what that means is I've taught men at this point, like I said, 44, 4500 men, I've taught them how to use social media in order to create in real life gatherings with people that they want to network with and women they want to date. I teach them a very simplistic funnel, step by step procedure where I hold their hand through every step in order to create the dating life, the networking life that they've always dreamed of. By using social media and other things as well, I teach them how to do that. And so I think that that's one of the things. And the other thing is, and this is going to sound insane when I say this, but you know, I got, I'm glad I get this on camera because somebody's going to question me on this and we're going to come back in 10 years and see I was 100% right. The AI influencer is going to displace so many women from doing virtual sex work. I think that's kind of a good thing. What I mean by that is once the AI influencer is better than the replacement level, you know, virtual Sex worker, then a lot of those girls are going to stop doing that for a living because they're going to have to because there's going to be no money in it. These AI influencers can make unlimited content. And so I would like to see, I would, I would like. Again, I don't, I don't have a problem if a woman wants to do. When I say virtual sex work, by the way, I mean like only fans and sex band and stuff like that. I don't have a problem right now. If a girl's doing, if you're doing that, fine, you know, via con deals do that. I don't have an issue with it. I have a lot of friends who do that. My problem is I do have, I do see downstream ramifications from incentivizing so many women to do that. Women who could have been surgical nurses, women who could have been teachers, women who could have been professors. A lot of those women are now instead going into virtual sex work. And I do think that that is problematic overall for the, for, for our population. And so not incentivizing that so much, I think is going to be a good thing. And I think the AI influencers are probably going to be the reason why. And I think the way you'll notice it is when somebody buys Hooters and then also the Hooters are packed again. That kind of tells you that nobody can make money on of anymore.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, because I only go to Hooters for the food. But yes, but, but, but really the

[B]

curly fries there are really good.

[A]

Yeah, I mean they've, they've up. But, but yeah, you don't see the same quote unquote talent at Hooters anymore.

[B]

It's just not. Yeah, because why, because, because any, any one of those girls could be, could do bottle service, but the problem is they could do bottle service or they could get on only fans. But the problem is they're also incentivized. Like it's not just, it's not just that they're incentivized. It's so easy for a woman to become a sugar baby now because of Eros, because of seeking arrangements, because of like these different websites. It's so easy for a woman to become, you know, basically, you know, a gray area sex worker, which is a sugar baby. And again, I'm not here to judge them. I'm really not here to judge them. What I'm asking you though is like if you're a lady who's watching this and you find this offensive, just Ask yourself, your, your son comes home from college and you know, he's, he's 22, 23 years old and he says, mom, mom, I met this, you know, 30 year old woman at a strip club and she does only fans and I want to marry her. And like, how would you feel at that point? You know, she's, she has sex with several other men on her only fans. And, but I, you know, I, I look the other way because I understand it's just work. How would you feel as a mother? How would you feel you've done as a job? And if you're willing to answer this honestly, you understand how this could become problematic down the road. Like I said, I have several friends, they do only fans and I talk to them all the time. They come on my show and I ask them all the time, like, you know, if you do you, would you want your daughter or someone else to do this? And they're like, no, they wouldn't. But they made a lot of money and they understand. Like, they'll even tell you, like, I understand. I'm a very difficult person today. I've dated girls that have done only fans before, just like generally not nude, but just stuff like bikini, stuff like that. You know, I'm not going to be a hypocrite. I've dated way too many girls who were in Playboy for me to like sit there and just, I'm not trying to shame them. What I'm saying is if everyone does this, if everyone gets into crypto trading and nobody goes to work anymore, like, what happens to society if everyone tries to sell solar, if every single person, you know, becomes a real estate agent, then there's going to be problems, there's going to be imbalances. And if you have them incentivized to do these things, then like actual labor doesn't ever get, you know, produced. And this is the same kind of situation here. If you just incentivize every single attractive woman to get on some, to do some kind of virtual sex work, then, then that's where the problems, that's where the problems lie.

[A]

Yeah. And, and then I want to touch on something else too. What's the average age of your clients?

[B]

Oh, man, I, I, I can't tell you. I, I have a client I'm seeing today who's 19 and another one who's 78.

[A]

Okay, all right, so you got a wide variety.

[B]

All right. Yeah, I don't, I don't. Like, I used to be able to give you a number in the first year I have so many clients over 70 that I just can't even. I don't. I don't even understand how they found us. It's crazy how many clients over 70.

[A]

What are those guys over 70? Wait a minute. What are the guys over 70 looking for from you?

[B]

Oh, what the other guy do? TRT is a miracle, bro.

[A]

This is what I'm getting.

[B]

Listen.

[A]

Yeah, I was going to get into this.

[B]

Yeah. Peptides and TRT, they're. They're.

[A]

They're.

[B]

Dude, these guys are taking IGF1, they're taking IPA, Marilla and Tesla, Merlin, BPC157. They're taking testosterone, you know, sipinate or ethanate. They're. And these guys are just like ripped and rich and they're in their 70s and they're just like, I'm horny and want to have sex with beautiful women. That's actually.

[A]

But they don't know how to.

[B]

I know it's hard, right? Is that they don't know how to. Relevancy and competency are probably the most things like how to dress. This is. Sorry, it's one of my rescues. He jumps up on the table here. Relevancy and competency is kind of the main thing that they have an issue with. And just the ability to stay. Like, I'm almost 50 years old. You're almost 50. And the. The ability to stay relevant is something that is just massively different when you think about, like, I want you to consider. If you go back and look at all in the Family. It came out in 1970. 71 on CBS. Archie Bunker, who was played by Carol O', Connor, is actually two years younger than we are. When that show starts, go back and look at Archie Bunker.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

And then look at Archie Bunker and then look at. To look at Tom Brady. They're the same age. Yeah. And you're going to be like, what has happened? Well, the reason is our ability to count macros to understand how sunlight works. Uva, uvb. This is the biohacking. The ability to biohack has become so easy, so prevalent, and so available to so many people that we've gotten to, like, understanding, like, paleo understanding ketosis, things like that. We've gotten so good at this because of the Internet, because of us sharing all of our secrets again. It's one of these things where it's like, I can say experimentally that this works, or you can come look at me and just see, hey, I'm dating a girl who's 25 years younger than me, and we have Sex all the, the time. And she's very happy. That's pro, like, sorry, I don't need to see anything else. I understand what I'm looking at now.

[A]

That's called being a living demonstration. You know, there's a lot of people out there talking and put, shooting content and all this, but are they a living demonstration?

[B]

Yeah. Yes. And so, so that's the issue, you know, that, that I see. And, and we've, we've created so many relevant men in their 50s, 60s and 70s that would not have been relevant before because of things like TRT and peptides and, and, and because of that, like, that's why I have so many clients that are so old, so much older, that are doing so well. The other thing is Mike and I don't, I don't know if you're married or not, but I don't know if you were to ask women, you know, have them on your show and ask them, ask them question people who hate my content, who think everything I'm saying is wrong, ask them this question. Do you think that there's ever been a more feminine group of 20 year olds in history than the ones that there are right now? And even the most hardcore, staunch liberal feminist you talk to will be like, yeah, these men are really feminine. It, and that's, that's an issue, that's an issue for men and an issue for women. And it, again, why is that? Goes back to what I said before. Social media has a massive, massive play in why these men have become so incredibly feminine. But in, as a result, me as a man in my late 40s, the main women who want to date me are women in their early 20s, late 20s. They are the ones who, I don't have to pursue them. They're generally the ones who want to date me. I'm not rich, I don't show money. I wear an Apple watch, I drive a car with 122,000 miles on it. They seem to have no trouble. And that seemed to be the main group of women. And when I asked them why, they're like, because men on my own age, my men, my own age are retarded. Sorry to use that word. That's the word I hear most frequently. And so that's generally for men who are older, you know, late 30s, early 40s. I get these guys come to me and their, their families are like, you need to have kids now. And they're like, oh my God, I'm 31 years old, life's over for me. I need to have A kid now, and I'm just like laughing at them like, bro, what do you just bank some sperm and just go have fun? What is wrong with you? You know, it's just incredible to me when I listen to them say that, because again, it is a massive biological double standard. But as a man, you can go a lot longer before, you know, you decide to have children than women. I'm not saying it's the best idea, but it's something that's just biological, you know, double standard that does exist.

[A]

Yeah, I, I've been married 23 years here coming up this May. And this is just from my experience. Every good woman that I've ever ran into or met does not want a soft. They want somebody that's like, you know, lay the law down. Here's what we're doing. Take control, protect and, and, and, you know, taking care of themselves. And, you know, one thing, one thing, and I'll end on this because we're up against the clock. But one thing that really got me out, you know, in his 23 years of marriage, I figured some things out right when I was younger. I was jealous. You know, I'm Italian, you know, I'm jealous detective and all this other stuff. Right then I started realizing, wait a minute. If I make myself the most irresistible person in all areas of my life, God forbid my wife doesn't want to be with me anymore, because I don't want that. But if that happens, I'm going to be upset because I miss her. But at the end of the day, like, I'm okay. And, and so that, that was a, that was a turning point for me, and it made our marriage better.

[B]

That's the, that's the ultimate lesson. We've had several guys join my program who actually are married, and they've told us verbatim that what we taught them helped save their marriage. You can be like, I want, you know, I learned from my parents to be a gentleman to woman. I want to be really, really good to the woman that I date. People that I love in my life in general, my family members and the women that I date, I want to be really good to them. The problem is, if I'm really good to a woman, I'm going to say something that's going to offend a lot of people. But it's absolutely undeniably true. If I want to be really, really, really good to a beautiful woman and she doesn't think other women want me, she wants. Will walk all over me and she will punish me for it. But the only way for me to be truly good to a woman, generous with her, treat her with just an incredible infinite levels of love and respect, is for her to also know that other women want to sleep with me, period. The concept in psychology is called make choice copying. In humans, it is irrefutable, it is undeniable, it is an immutable fact that women will find you more attractive if other women find you attractive. So if you're a guy and you're just like you think that your ethics and your morals and your goodness toward your woman is going to keep her, get ready to be disillusioned with this 50% divorce rate that we have now and 80% of divorces initiated by women. We're going to react next week on my show Access Vegas to a video where a woman keeps explaining why it's hard for her to just leave a good man. It's like, because he's not your person. So, like, women are actually making video because they, they, they, they finally have to admit it. They're just leaving good men for nothing. And so now this woman is making a video explaining why it's like it's hard to just leave a good man, but that you have to, because they're just boring. And so now you see that and you come to the realization the reason why she can say that or the reason why she is saying that is because the good man she's leaving, she doesn't believe other women want him. And so you consistently being in the gym, being funny, being a boisterous being, you know, having, being the charismatic, being a good public speaker, being an amazing leader, those things, and then going into public situations with your wife and having, catching your wife, catching other women staring at you, those are the things that cause women to have genuine sexual desire for you. Now, if that offends you, I'm sorry. But if you want to get it into a debate with me about this, and I legitimately mean that on X or on Twitter or YouTube, I will embarrass you. You're more than welcome to come and debate me on this. What I said is irrevocably true. And so that's the number. What you said is terrific. Like, it absolutely is true. She needs to understand that you would you have aspects to you that would be desirable to other women. Please look up sexy sons hypothesis and make choice copying in humans. I did not make this up. These are terms from evolutionary psychology, evolutionary biology, and sociology that you could look up on your own. This is the dirty, nasty truth about Humans. A lot of times we come off like hairless murder apes that only care about status and that. I'm not saying that's always true, but a lot of times that is true. And that's one of the reasons why. Oh, you guys, all my ex girlfriends, they'll tell you I was really, really good to them. But the reason why I could be good to women who look like they do, look like Megan Fox. The reason why I can be good to women that are that incredibly attractive is because these women always understood. They always. And they've all told me this, that if they broke up with me, they knew very well that I would be able to date someone as beautiful as them very quickly. And because of that, it made them more secure in the fact that they. They were. It made them more attractive. Now, did it necessarily make them more secure in the relationship? No, but that's okay. They're like, as a man, like, I want my girl to be so beautiful that when she goes out and every dude stares at her like, you know, it kind of, you know, it's like, hey, I need to stand next to her. There needs to be a little bit of that. I don't mind that I. I don't mind when two people are so physically attracted to each other that they get a little insecure. There's nothing wrong with that. That's fine because, you know, the two of you got a personal trainer and you got ripped together. That's awesome. I think that's a terrific thing. The other thing is I get a lot of guys who are religious, and one of the. One of the biggest, I want to say, problems that I. That I'm seeing happening in the church now is that, you know, you have men and women who are not being told to stay in shape, and then you have a massive number of women who are not having sex with their husbands, and then you're having a high, high rate of divorce. And I. And I just don't see the, like, the church does not promote fitness or does not promote, you know, meant a healthy marriages. The way to keep healthy marriages healthy is for two people to be physically attracted to each other, amongst other things, but they need to be physically attracted to each other having sex on a regular basis. And that's not something that's really being promoted enough in the church.

[A]

That's Mike Sartain. Hey, man, thank you so much for being here. I had a good talk with you today. I enjoyed myself, appreciate your time. And where can people go deeper with you, man?

[B]

Just go, Michael Sartain. On YouTube and Instagram. Those will be the main 2 Sartain podcast on Twitter and Michael Sartain podcast on Tik Tok. The reason why the names are different there obviously is because I've lost accounts for saying things that were true. That's. That's the reason why before Elon bought Twitter, I lost my account for saying something that was true. Like, irrevocably. Grok. If you ask Grok to do a fact check, he would say, nope, what he said is true, but I still lost my account for it. Crazy. So I just want to let you guys. So make sure you just look up Michael Sartain. You should. You should be able to find me anywhere. If you're looking to level up your networking, communication, leadership, or dating, make sure you check out. Just click the link in my bio and you should be able to find out about the Minute of Action program. And additionally, if you have any skepticism, because I know there's a lot out there, especially when it comes to online programs, I totally get 4300 clients have gone through the program. You can watch their [e-mail] testimonials or here's the big one. And no one else can say this in my space. Go to trustpilot right now. You understand trustpilot are verified reviews of people who have actually taken your course. You cannot leave a trustpilot review unless. You cannot leave a trustpilot review unless you can prove to trustpilot that you actually taken the course. And if I. If I compensated any of these people for leaving reviews federally, I have to tell people. It's a federal law that I have to let people know that they were compensated. No one was compensated for these reviews. 4.99 rating. Go check it out for yourself. Because if you have any skepticism about what I do and whether or not it works, as soon as you see that, if you still have skepticism, I don't know how to help you. But yeah, Michael Sartain is the easiest way to find me.

[A]

Love it, man. Love it. Hang tell you while I wrap this up, folks, that's this episode of the what do you made up show with your boy C Rock and Michael Sartain sharing what he's made of. Until next time, hit that subscribe follow button at the top of your favorite podcast platform and keep coming back. Till next time. Be that one.