B (2:05)

Well, we talk about it all the Time, if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go with people. Right. Everything rises and falls upon the people and the relationships. And we're. You think about it like we're all literally one or two relationships away from. From just about anything.

A (2:21)

Yeah. So, yeah, it's from connections, it's from introductions, some strategies. But also, I think the thing that most people miss is you get eight hours for each person that you get to, you know, you're leveraging their time, expertise, systems, process, network, what have you. So I think a lot of people miss that. But anyway, let's get to the question we start the show with every time, and that is, Lucas, what are you made of?

B (2:44)

Yeah, well, I love that question. I've listened to your podcast. I think for me, I'm made of a willingness to question the meaning I give to whatever happens in my life, because I've realized it's not what happens that defines me, it's what I decide it means. And I actually have the pen of authorship for that meaning that I do that. And every time, every time, Mike, I've changed the meaning. I've changed my life.

A (3:05)

Yeah. Yeah. And you have a great story. I mean, you mentioned some of it on our little 15 minute networking call that we had.

B (3:11)

Yeah.

A (3:11)

And I'd love to hear, you know, and share with the audience some, you know, a deeper version of it. So where's your story start?

B (3:17)

Yeah, well, I started preaching when I was 16, and so that's all I. I knew as an adult. I have a Bachelor of Science in Pastoral ministries, which translation, in the corporate world that you're ak, you have no employable skills. And so I preached for years. In my last year in ministry, I flew 125,000 miles. I was speaking all around the world. And I just got off the stage in January of 08, preaching to about 50,000 people in Andhra Pradesh, India. And I'm Skyping my kids. And we were homeschooling at that time, Mike. And we is a very liberal word. My wife is a champion and I got off the Skype and I just had a voice go off in my head saying, I've traveled the world and played with everybody else's kids. Now it's time to come home and

A (4:03)

play with my own. Well, and not to mention, in that world, in ministry, you're not getting paid to speak. Oh, you're not getting paid for your time, are you?

B (4:12)

No. Frequently you would go into a place or a church or a conference, and they take up a love offering for you. And so you don't do it for the money, you do it for the mission. So I've always had this belief and I think you do too. Mike, just talk it to you is you fundamentally can make a decision about your life. Am I going to go for impact or income? And if I have to choose, which do I choose? What I have found that people like you and other leaders that I know that go for deep impact never have to worry about income. So for me it's never been about income. And we'll talk even about this book that I'm launching where the income from that's going to go. But it has been how do I impact and alter the course of human history? And I will literally get on a plane, fly for free to do that kind of thing. Although right now as kind of fun because people are willing to pay me to come and speak to them. So.

A (4:59)

Yeah, yeah. And like you said, if we had to pick one, but there's, there's nothing wrong. God has no problems with us having both.

B (5:06)

Well, that, that's what the thing I love is. God's not a God of either or, he's both. And how do I do both? And it's seek first his kingdom and then all these other things are going to be added. So it's a matter of order, not a matter of exclusivity.

A (5:19)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. People have to think, you know, you got to pick one or the other and, and put something in a box and what have you. You don't. And the other thing, when you, when you got going and then you decided you got this voice that came to you, you had no business knowledge. You said, I remember you telling me that none, zero.

B (5:35)

I had a lot of successful business people in my, my church. I had read Rich Dad, Poor dad and that was about it. Started investing in some real estate rental properties and I watched three episodes of We Quit the ministry, canceled all my speaking engagements. Watched three episodes of House Hunters on HGTV and decided real Estate in 2008 would career to get into. And what's bad about that, Mike, is I went on to own brokerages where I had agents on those shows and none of them are real. And so I based an entire professional decision on a reality TV show that's not even real.

A (6:08)

Yeah, you know, there's a show called Selling Sunset and a lot of those agents that are on Selling Sunset, they wear these high end clothing, designer clothes, this and that and, and half, I don't know, maybe 80 of them don't Even do any business. It's crazy.

B (6:21)

But they look good on camera. So. Yeah.

A (6:23)

Yeah. Well, you know, the. I don't know if I told you this when we talked before, but I was in. I happened to get into real estate in 2005. I got my real estate license, became best selling and listing agent in the first year and then really quickly realized that the mortgage business was better for me. And so I saw my friends making money in the mortgage business. They weren't having to show houses and all that. And I got in the mortgage business in 2006 of all times to get in the mortgage business.

B (6:49)

Right, right before it all crashed in the world.

A (6:52)

Yeah. And you got in in 08, but I was in there and I made it, I survived. So it worked because. But I didn't know if I told you that that timing.

B (6:59)

No, that's crazy timing. Crazy timing.

A (7:02)

So 08, you get in there and then. And then started as an agent and then you started having your own brokerage.

B (7:08)

Yeah, so I started as an agent in the first six months, went broke really quick. We took about nine months in about a hundred thousand dollars in credit card debt. Using credit cards to buy gas, groceries and lines of credit to pay minimums on credit cards. So I was using debt to pay debt. And Mike, that, that's not a great economic plan. And so. And then. And then made a move, a brokerage move and learned how to start selling real estate and ended up winning a career launch award the next year. Doubled my business. Then had an office present an opportunity to come run it. And we ranked in the top 10 in the nation in growth and then had offices given to me. And I looked up one day, I'm. I own nine brokerages and I'm working for one of the most influential people in the real estate spaces at the largest brokerage franchise brokerage in America and, and learned a lot that process about building business, about leadership, about how to tell my make. You know, the same event happens to you and happens to me and people walk away with different meanings. And so for me it's like oh, eight. This is the hardest real estate season of all time. And yet I found it the biggest opportunity of all time. So one person sees hardship. And the truth is I think great leaders are paid directly and compensated directly in correlation to the size of problem they're willing to solve. And so I can see opportunity or I can see problem completely by choice.

A (8:39)

Yeah. Well, how many times prior to that when you were in hundred thousand dollars of credit card debt and you're Going on this journey of being in real estate. In real estate. How many times did you feel like thrown in a towel?

B (8:51)

Oh my gosh, Mike. Yeah, I, I think for a period of six to nine months, I, I really was on borderline depression. Super anxious. I would wake up at 2:30 in the middle of the night. Kids joke around about it. Now, my kids are all adults. They joke around about it. They get up, get ready for school. Said, well, dad must have had a rough night because at 2:30 in the night, it's like I turn on the military channel. Because it was interesting enough to keep me awake, but boring enough to put me back to sleep. Asleep was a possibility. So I know everything about Hitler's Nazi Germany and the best 10 tanks. I know all of that stuff because I watched it. But man, it was like I was thinking, do I need to go stock shelves at a grocery store? Do I need to go work at Starbucks? I was working on my script of you want to supersize that order? I mean, I was just thinking of anything. It was like a daily occurrence. And I, I realized something then, Mike, for me is it's not the feeling that matters. It's what do you decide and choose to do next that matters.

A (9:49)

Yeah, yeah. You know, there's a section in Think and Grow Rich about three feet from gold. Yeah.

B (9:55)

And such a great story.

A (9:56)

Yeah, man. And I just, I just have this thing inside of me like I'm just gonna keep going, man. Like I'm not gonna stop. So no matter what happens, I just know if I keep going, everything always works out. You know, I've been to places as well where like, the money was starting to run when I made the transition on the mortgage industry and winded everything down. And I had to like, sell some assets and, you know, to reinvest, you know, pay the bills, like you're saying, and, and, and start this company and all that. And I'm like, how much Runway do I have? Oh my gosh, what if nobody on the sales come in? And then I start playing tricks in my mind where I'll get a big client that comes in and I'm like, you know, somebody will pass like 20,000 or something. And I'm like, man, where'd they come from? Okay, was I the one that created that? Did I, did I do that? Can I replicate that? Because what if they didn't come in? I wouldn't have that $20,000. And I would play these games in my head where it doesn't matter where it came from. The fact is do what you're supposed to be doing and entrust and surrender.

B (10:50)

Yeah, I, I. Life doesn't happen to me. It happens for me. And so when I wake up every day and I'm a student and life's going to teach me today, that's a totally different energy than when I wake up and I'm the. And I have to know everything, and I'm going to tell everybody else who are my minions, what to do.

A (11:06)

Yeah.

B (11:06)

And so that's where it's like, I realized it's interesting because you asked about the time I'm $100,000 a debt. Fast forward that story. And now becoming a millionaire, working for, you know, the most, one of the most influential guys in the real estate space. I found out that a lot of high achievers, high performers are really proud of the life that they, they, they, they're really, they built a life they're proud of. They, they're just not one that they can live inside of. They wake up with the same feeling, the same pressure, and there's like, what does it mean? It's kind of like they leaned the ladder up against the wall of success, only to climb the ladder to realize now that I'm here, I've leaned it against the wrong goal. I succeeded, but I have no meaning.

A (11:47)

Well, I mean, I think it's dangerous to become a millionaire at some points, because when you get that, you remember what it was like without. And then you get into this conservation mode and you get scared and you're like, oh, my gosh. And then you start, stop the risk that you were taking before to get to where you were. And then you contract. You introvert. And when, if you just keep going and, and just keep that same thing, you, you got the million or whatever, whatever the number is. But, like, you got that right by doing what you were doing. Why are you gonna stop now? Which is exactly the thing that's gonna cause you the problem that you're scared of.

B (12:24)

Yeah. And I think that's what caused me to go on this journey, this book project that I've been working on, is that I found out that success actually could tempt you into having a very fixed mindset and no longer being curious. I think curiosity is a superpower for the human experiences. What else could this mean? What else could I do with this? What if this worked out? What if that worked out? And so with success comes the trap of a fixed mindset. However, once I could become curious and aware of my own fixed mindset, I can create literally unlimited Possibilities.

A (12:57)

Yeah, yeah. So did you find yourself into that conservation mode when you got to a certain level?

B (13:01)

Oh man, yeah. It's really easy to play defense and I've actually watched it. Like I'm a student of history. I'm a history geek. Anyway, like when I was in ministry, I love studying church history. Now I study business. And business follows the same pattern as a general rule as ministry and movements did. It. It starts with a man on a mission that becomes a movement. The movement then has to become a machine and systematize things. And once it becomes a machine, it usually becomes a monument. And so you think about this in business, I've. There's a reason, like in the real estate space, why there are companies that are no longer number one. And the people who are number one right now, once they become a machine and a monument, they've stopped learning, they stopped innovating, they've started exploring, they've stopped start stop paying attention to human beings. They. They label people as they're my client or not my client. And they're going to get what I give instead of saying what do they need and can I supply that need once anybody gets into judgment and real honestly, Mike, I. We're not designed, we're not really good judgers anyway. And so when we live in judgment, we kill off all possibilities. And once we kill off all possibilities, I don't live a creative life. I live a reactive life.

A (14:12)

Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Yeah. Well. So okay, so who's number one now in real estate?

B (14:20)

Depends on whose marketing piece you want to pay attention to. I think in the United States, by age account, it'd be Keller Williams still. And that was something that I was a part of.

A (14:28)

Okay, gotcha, gotcha. And are you still in real estate now?

B (14:31)

I do. I still, I still have small ownership pieces, but I'm putting. Doing exactly what we just talked about about five minutes ago is like that's been a really profitable world, a lucrative world. And I'm going into this world where how can I help leaders liberate themselves from their autopilot thinking? So I'm pushing all my chips. I'm all in on this.

A (14:51)

Cause right now take us through that decision to do that.

B (14:55)

Yeah, that decision took several years and it's really hard because you could go from hero to zero really quick. And once you make decisions to step away from things and if you're not careful, your identity has been wrapped up in your position. Position and your identity's been wrapped up in a role and your identity has been wrapped up in applause and spotlights and whenever somebody says, in fact, we, we actually. This is one of those little soapbox things, Mike. I don't think we want to go down, but I think we train our kids from an early age of what do you want to be when you grow up? Well, that's a terrible question because what you're asking is what do you want to do? What do I want to be is something completely different than what I want to do occupationally. And so I think that it took me a few years. It took me just a, you know, 30 days to resign a position. It's taken me probably two or three years to get that position out of me so that I could now say, how do I serve the world and what's my unique calling and what's my unique purpose? What's my destiny? What's the unlimited possibility that I would create if there was no restraint on my thinking? And I've always been drawn to speaking and teaching and coaching and people aggressed me and people want me to come. And that's always been just a part of who I am. And it's like, well, maybe that's what God wants for me to do. And so I started a book about 10 years ago, and probably about a year ago I got real serious about it and finished it up and started to figure out how do I go on a cause? How do I go on this mission of helping liberate leaders from their program thinking and just autopilot thinking where we're. We're letting our preferences making decisions for us instead of us making the decision. And so, in fact, the book that I ended up writing is really kind of a glimpse of the process that I had to go through in order to write the book.

A (16:45)

Yeah. And what about the conversations you had to have when you were talking to the team and your leadership team and all that?

B (16:54)

You know, I'm surrounded by amazing people. And other than the people who I was, their leverage, you know, the people who hired me and were counting on me, most of my team, the vast majority of my team, my family especially, were like, well, duh, dad, this is what you're supposed to do. It's like they could see it. And so, however, there. There are some hard conversations, especially when I was helping somebody else make millions of dollars or I was helping somebody else succeed, that I was their employee or I was their business partner, and I had to be very careful and respectful and honor honoring those relationships, not wanting to harm or hurt and yet still follow the Path that was. That's in front of me.

A (17:33)

Yeah, yeah. But so. So what were the conversations like with those that. That may have not understood it or were you were leveraged by.

B (17:40)

You know what's interesting? One of them ends up to becoming one of my biggest supporters in this. It took them some time. Because here's the thing, is nothing lasts forever.

A (17:51)

Right.

B (17:52)

Right. No, really. No money, no material good. The house that I live in is actually going to be somebody else's house one day. The car I drive right now is going to be somebody else's car one day. So nothing lasts forever. And I realized something. Mike come. And sometimes they don't come into our life for the entire book. They come for just a chapter or two. And I think that at the end of the day, everybody is replaceable. So I. I became very replaceable in the Keller Williams ecosystem, for sure. I am very replaceable at that system. And they're going on. They're doing great. They're doing great things. And I think time heals a lot of things. And I think that that's what happened with me.

A (18:27)

Yeah. What about this part? I've had situations where I've had people that were, you know, I was talking to every day. We were in the. In the trenches together. And, you know, you seem like they're your friends and talk to them. And even I was in business with three friends that I grew up with since we were 10 or 11 years old. I went to high school, college together, played ball together, then we got into business together. And once. Once I exited that business and got out, I hardly ever talked to him anymore. Yeah. And I kind of think to myself, okay, well, that must have been more of a transactional relationship. Even though it was a transformational kind of good friendship before we got into business. But then it became a transactional relationship totally. Because afterwards, if you're not talking when the business is over, then what else is there? What is it? You know? And it's. It was hard.

B (19:13)

It was hard.

A (19:13)

That part was hard because I. I really love those guys, and I'm not blaming them at all. I mean, I'm just.

B (19:21)

We have the same experience that there were people that I found out that we. We were functional friends because we had a function we had to fulfill. And then there's other people who are just like brothers. I've got a couple of guys I'm thinking of that I'm in business with here in Kansas City. They're brothers, my family calls them. If something happens to me, it's just like they're brothers. It doesn't matter what we're doing. We're going to be friends. Then there's other people who won't return a phone call. That took me some time, real honestly, to get past the feelings of rejection and all that good stuff. And it's one of those things that I had to learn. It's not what happens to life that gets to dictate my future. It's the meaning that I attach to it so I can attach a judgmental meaning to those people. Or I could say, you know what, it was great for a chapter and now we're both moving on. And I'm excited for their life and I'm excited for mine.

A (20:10)

Yeah, Yeah. I want to shift focus here to the church and the ministry part because there's something I was thinking about recently. I've been hanging around a lot of biohacking, longevity, health and wellness, functional medicine, doctors and experts, founders of different products, supplements, what have you. And you know, in reading and in prayer, I talk, you know, it talks about the Holy Spirit and accepting the Holy Spirit into the temple which your body's a temple.

B (20:34)

Yeah, that's right.

A (20:35)

And I, and I. And it just like troubles me that the church doesn't talk enough about health and wellness. And I go to church and, and, and it's just like it's a microcosm of the country, I'm sure. But majority of people are, I would assume most of them don't drink, but. But they don't take care of their bodies and, you know, diet, nutrition, working out, majority of them. Not saying everybody, but it's not, it's not talked about enough.

B (21:03)

You are hitting on all my little soapboxes today, buddy. So I didn't know we were going to go this direction. I'm actually married to a registered nurse who is totally into functional integrated medicine. So this is something that we spend a lot of time thinking and talking about and debating and what have you. This is just my belief. I think sometimes in the church world that we're taking water to the ocean. We're convincing the already convinced. And the truth is, I think the greatest inventions of all time are supposed to be given to Christians, to the church. But the church, because it has a very fixed mindset on what problem it solves in the world today, they don't speak to my health, they don't speak to my money. And so I thought about. I was still in pastoring when 911 happened. And I remember the next couple of weeks our churches were flooded with People desperately wanting answers for what was going on in the world that day. And within two weeks, they were gone. And this is what my aha was. And it's still. I'm still convinced of it today, is they came to the church for answers and they saw a performance, they saw a service, they heard good music, but they didn't find an answer. Because I think this by and large has been. My experience is while the world by and large has given up on the church, they've not given up on God. And I think God, I don't think, in my mind, I know that there's a lot of teaching and this could be a whole nother podcast really is where we've separated the mind, spirit and body. I don't think God separates them. So my body and my mind are all connected. My spirit and my body are all connected. And so if I'm not taking care of my body, I'm not stewarding the very physical vessel through which I carry out my mission on the planet. And if I don't have energy, Mike, good grief. I can't go to leaders and help them get free. I can't help make millionaires out of Christians because I think the devil's had the money long enough. It's might as well take it out of those people's hands, put it in God's people's hands and do good things with it. So as a business leader, if I had a problem with my profit and loss statement, I would never go to a pastor if I had a problem with my cholesterol level. I'm not going to go to a class offered at my church if I have a problem with my waistline or if I have a problem, you know, with practical things, I don't go to the church. I go to the church if I have a spiritual existential crisis or a marriage problem or a problem with my kids. Why is the church not the answer to all of life's issues, not just some of them? And boy, I could go on about that because I've talked to my pastor's friend. How do you stand in the pulpit? This is not judgment. This is real curious. How do you justify. Be filled with the spirit? And one of the fruit of the spirit is self control. And it's very obvious you can't control what you put in your mouth. And I don't want to put shame on anybody, but it's the truth. It's like you can't tell me you're filled with the spirit of God and lack self control.

A (23:52)

Well, but, but I think there's, I think here's the problem here. I think people don't want to be preached at. That is, I think it's a, you know, really good pastors are great storytellers and they're great at laying things out so that people can understand them. And they're like, like having aha. Moments, cognitions on the information they're hearing versus feeling bad about themselves, feeling shameful about themselves. Because we have enough shame.

B (24:12)

Yeah.

A (24:13)

We have enough feeling bad about ourselves. So I, I think that, I think they, and this is my perception of it, they, they, they shy away from it because they don't want to, like, if anybody's out of shape in the audience, they don't want to make them feel bad.

B (24:26)

Sure.

A (24:26)

And then they think, well, if I do talk about it, I gotta preach. Preach, Adam.

B (24:30)

Yeah.

A (24:30)

Instead of painting a picture.

B (24:33)

Yeah. And so even like that statement could be seen that how do you preach about self control? And obviously it could be seen through the filter of shame or it could be seen through a filter of invitation. Wow, that's someplace that I need God to evangelize my heart. Because it's hard to lead people to a place where you personally never have gone. And by the way, I think one of the hardest jobs in America is pastoring a local church. You're trying to change the world with a volunteer army and nobody salutes you when you walk down the halls. They may do other hand gestures, but they don't salute you as a pastor. And so I'm not diminishing or trying to beat up on pastors. I am saying that I think there's more that's possible within the church world where we actually make disciples of nations, that's Christians and pre Christians alike by showing them this is what abundant life like. And if I have health issues of my own making, which a lot of health issues are of my own choice, that's really hard to lead somebody where I personally haven't gone. So I've been on probably a 10 year journey with this, you know, figuring out my health and my metabolism and my mindset and my, you know, all psychology is biological anyway. And so how do I fix that and address that? And so this is super fascinating to me as well.

A (25:41)

Yeah, yeah. And, and you know, I looked at the New Testament and when Jesus was he. I don't like the word preaching because I don't, I don't feel like he was preaching, really feel like he was sharing stories and getting people to relate to what he was talking about, but also talking in parables so that people would critically think. Right.

B (25:57)

And my pushback on that, Mike, is that actually is real preaching. Unfortunately, you and I have a definition of preaching. That isn't what Jesus did, it's what.

A (26:04)

Right.

B (26:05)

You know, sinners in the hands of an angry God is. It's. And it's, it's. You're a bad person and come and cry a little bit and feel bad about things, but then leave and because shame is a terrible motivator. Shame will get you stirred but will never transform. It just doesn't. You'll leave exactly the same as you came in, but you just cried a few tears.

A (26:25)

Yeah, yeah. Interesting. We can go deeper in that too. But that's time here I want to, I want to touch on what you're going to next. What's the plan? What's the vision that you're going to be doing now with the book coming out and your new journey?

B (26:37)

Yeah. So this journey. Thank you for asking. This journey is. I wrote a book, it'll be coming out August 4th of this year called the Uncaged Leader. And so they could go to theuncagedleader.com and sign up to be notified when the pre sales come available. And really the book is based upon a couple of things. One, how do leaders and real honestly how to human beings Because I think a mom of a two year old is probably one of the strongest leaders in America.

A (27:01)

Right.

B (27:01)

How do I help people effectively lead? By getting them more aware and more curious. And that's really the two themes of the book that it's based upon. I ran across a study, Mike, that Tasha Urich out of Harvard Business school did, that 95% of Americans think that they're completely self aware and only 10% are. And so as I talk about this, of the 10 people that are listening to the every 10 people that are listening to this podcast, they all think they're self aware. Only one actually is. And they're Alkavists. They're that one. And so helping people understand that so much of our life is driven by autopilot thinking based upon preferences. There's a whole science of metacognition where I'm thinking about thinking we never challenge the thoughts that we have. We just mindlessly do things and react to things based upon programming. So I help leaders do that. And then number two, how do I actually cure curate curiosity? You know, you think about Steve Jobs, massively curious. You think of Winston Churchill, massively curious. These people who changed history, Mother Teresa, what What's, what's the cost of one life? And she changed the world, right? And so I want to help people get more curious. And here's what's really fun about this for me. Mike is the uncaged leader. I. I have huge aspirations to impact a lot of people with it. 100% of the profits I'm going to go give away to people who are just stopping sex trafficking, stop human trafficking, because there's more people in slavery now than at any other point in history, and we don't riot in the streets about that. And so I, I'm passionate about this and I'm excited about this because I want to alter the course of human history. And I know you're. You're the same breed as I am. There, brother. Love it. Well, all right.

A (28:43)

So again, that's the UncagedLeader.com that's where they can check it out. And where can they get deeper with.

B (28:47)

With you, Lucas, @theuncagedleader.com as well. They could email me there. We're going to be real. I'm really focused in on getting the book out now. There's going to be other things that I want to roll out where I offer some, maybe some seminars, some workshops where they could actually learn it eventually. Maybe even like a full immersive retreat where people could come and start to challenge their thinking, become more curious, and step into a world of unlimited possibilities instead of great limitations.

A (29:14)

I love it, man. Thank you so much for what you're doing, Lucas. Thank you for joining us today. I appreciate you, man.

B (29:18)

Mike, thanks for having me on, buddy.

A (29:20)

All right, hang tight while I wrap this up, folks. That's this episode of the Woody made up show. It's your boy, C Rock, here with Lucas Sheridan, sharing what he's made of. Hit that subscribe follow button at the top of your favorite podcast platform and keep coming back. And until next time, be that one.