How The State Makes Us Poorer | Max Hillebrand

Summary

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Podcast Summary: What Bitcoin Did

Episode: How The State Makes Us Poorer | Max Hillebrand

Host: Danny Knowles | Guest: Konrad Graff (joined by Max Hillebrand)
Date: June 10, 2026

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Overview

This episode explores the intersection of privacy, economics, and Bitcoin, focusing on how state intervention and surveillance make societies poorer and less free. The conversation, centered on Konrad Graff’s new book and drawing from the Austrian school of economic thought and cypherpunk philosophy, examines the roots of property, the damage caused by inflation and surveillance, why privacy is essential for a free economy, and how tools like Bitcoin enable resistance to economic and informational control. The episode delves into praxeology (the study of human action), critiques state education, unpacks the broken window fallacy, and considers practical and philosophical paths to greater freedom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The War for Privacy in a Digital Age

• Modern threats to privacy: The hosts highlight how surveillance tools have become far more powerful (03:31), and unless precautions are taken, “you have very little secrets left.” (01:31, Graff)
• Cypherpunk legacy: The importance of technological privacy tools—many developed by cypherpunks facing actual physical danger—is emphasized. Graff notes, “the sad story of the cypherpunks is that they've built incredible ideas, powerful code, but they're just humans and they can be killed. And they have been kidnapped, tortured and killed for decades.” (00:02)
• AI and surveillance: Modern AI tools accelerate data collection, presenting further threats to privacy; companies have incentives to collect and monetize user data, not just to improve products, but for censorship and collaboration with the state. (04:00–04:37)
• Resistance is possible: Despite challenges, strong privacy is still achievable with current open-source tools, like Signal for messaging or privacy-focused AI models (e.g., Maple). (01:31–05:15)
• Main message: Privacy tools are advancing, but public awareness and adoption lag behind, and carelessness is increasing with the spread of AI and big tech.

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2. The Link Between Privacy, Freedom, and Economics

• Defining privacy: Privacy is not about total anonymity but the power “to selectively reveal yourself to the world.” (08:56, Graff, quoting Eric Hughes)
• Privacy as freedom: “If you cannot choose what to say to whom, if someone can force you to reveal an information that you don't want...that's not freedom, that's slavery.” (09:30)
• Economic impact of surveillance: Surveillance and lack of privacy alter economic behavior, leading to malinvestment, overconsumption, and ultimately making societies poorer as market signals and preferences are distorted. This is likened to the damaging effects of inflation. (10:40–11:14)
• Self-censorship: The creeping normalization of surveillance leads people to self-censor, even in societies that claim to value freedom, e.g., the US. Oppression takes subtler forms—licenses, taxes, forced currency use, and algorithmic censorship. (13:47–18:20)
• Freedom metric: Citing “mean time to harassment” (vonu), Graff suggests that genuine freedom is measured by the interval between acts of coercion or theft against you—a sobering metric in modern societies. (18:37–19:36)

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3. Austrian Economics, State Power, and Why Privacy Matters

• Austrian School's view: The mainstream (including economists) long failed to appreciate Bitcoin and digital scarcity, or the cypherpunk approach to resisting state power. Both camps—economists and technologists—need each other. (06:01–08:36)
• Taxation as theft: The show forcefully frames taxes, licensing, and many forms of state regulation as theft, broadening theft’s definition to include coercion, compelled licensing, contract violation, trespass, and even lying in commerce. (19:56–21:02)
• Education as indoctrination: Mainstream education systems, built for obedience not critical thinking, entrench statist narratives and discourage independent economic thought (“intellectual bodyguards of the House of Hohenzollern,” 24:01–26:51).
• Why privacy and property are inseparable: Austrian economics is fundamentally about “private” property, and with forced disclosure or surveillance, property and voluntary exchange lose meaning. (27:32–28:23)
• On entrepreneurship: Entrepreneurs are heroes for solving others’ problems, but state intervention (e.g., wage laws, price controls) destroy value by preventing voluntary trades and efficient allocation. (51:55–56:37)

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4. Practical and Philosophical Debates on Resistance

• Parallel economies: True change rarely comes from the top down. Rather than fighting for mainstream adoption, the cypherpunk way is to build parallel systems and make coercion and theft more costly for the state, while making defense easier for individuals. (23:06–34:34)
• Notable exchange: On the difficulty and danger in resisting “the system,” Max admits he’s not willing to risk family safety by refusing to pay taxes, illustrating why most comply even when they understand the issues. (22:51)
• On the rise of socialism: Discusses why misapplied feelings and poor economic reasoning lead people to embrace communism/socialism, not realizing those policies inevitably increase poverty and distortion. (69:19–72:48)
• Need for memetic warfare: Economic truths are complex; statist ideas are easy to sell in “7-second soundbites.” The challenge is turning hard but correct ideas into viral, understandable memes. (76:32–79:03)

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5. Bitcoin, Privacy Technologies, and Their Limits

• Bitcoin’s architecture: Bitcoin is fundamentally public (“you cannot make a bitcoin transaction without telling the entire world about the transaction”), but tools exist to improve privacy. (39:47)
• State of privacy tools:
  • Coinjoin (Wasabi, etc.): Effective on-chain privacy but coordinators can be targeted, e.g. Samurai dev arrests, Wasabi’s withdrawal from the US.
  • Lightning Network: “A coin swap network,” with better privacy and scalability than on-chain transactions.
  • Client-side validation: New protocols like shielded CSV (client-side validation and zero-knowledge proofs) promise even stronger, more scalable privacy—possibly better than Zcash—if technical hurdles (trustless pegs) are overcome. (42:59–45:37)
• On Zcash vs. Bitcoin: Zcash is innovative but ultimately insufficiently decentralized or unstoppable, as evidenced by recent network decisions. (45:11)
• Ultimate goal: Build solutions that are both private and unstoppable—even at the risk that “thieves” (including states) will use them. (46:44)

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6. Economic Principles Explained Simply

• Action axiom: All economic reasoning starts from the fact that humans try to solve problems by allocating scarce resources. (48:55–51:52)
• Minimum wage and unemployment: Explains, step-by-step, how wage laws create unemployment by raising costs past what voluntary exchange permits. (51:55–56:37)
• Broken window fallacy: Value destruction (war, vandalism) is not productive; it simply reallocates resources away from voluntary uses with real value, to wasteful or forced uses. (57:07–59:13)
• Impact of inflation and taxation: The state’s revenue (tax/inflation) is by definition taken from others, and spending taken or printed money cannot make society richer overall. (59:43)
• Subjective value: Value is not in the good, but in the perception of individuals—breaking the classical/Marxist labor theory and supporting free exchange as mutually beneficial. (63:41–65:42)
• Socialism’s futility: Without private property and prices, resource allocation becomes impossible and leads to systemic impoverishment and collapse (see every historical example). (66:13–68:17)

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7. Changing Minds: What’s Needed?

• Books and lived experience: While reading (Rothbard, Mises, Graff’s new book) is essential, experience, like starting a business, powerfully converts people to economic realism. (73:03–73:54)
• Teach kids to work: Early, voluntary “child labor” instills the value of productive effort and inoculates against utopian collectivism. (73:54–74:21)
• Ideas are not property: Argues for open intellectual sharing—ownership and enforced scarcity of ideas is antithetical both to human flourishing and to efficient progress. (85:15–89:34)
• The duty of communicators: It is up to pro-freedom thinkers to revolutionize how ideas are packaged and spread, to help society re-examine faulty “psyops” and default assumptions. (78:18–79:03)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On false freedom in America:
  “If you need a license to cut someone’s hair, that’s not freedom...” (17:00, Graff)
• On tax as theft:
  “Try not paying it.” (21:26, Graff)
• On the cost of speaking truth:
  “When the consequences of you speaking the truth are worse...then actually speaking properly.” (15:31, Graff)
• On property and scarcity:
  “Scarcity is at the root of property, and we needed scarcity in cyberspace for money. That’s why Bitcoin is such a massive achievement.” (88:31, Graff)
• On the futility of fighting the system:
  “I think this is a multi-generational thing...” (38:30, Graff)
• On IP and ideas:
  “God gave us ideas that are non-scarce ... the beautiful thing is I still have them. (85:16, Graff)
• On trade and subjective value:
  “If value is in the thing, the logical conclusion is you should not trade. ... If one person always loses in a trade, then we shouldn’t trades.” (68:22–69:12, Graff)
• On state education:
  “[Mainstream] education ... goes back to the Prussians ... designed to make more obedient soldiers.” (24:01–26:51, Graff)
• On memes vs. ideas:
  “This is memetic warfare ultimately. And we need to get really, really good at like clipping those seven seconds and condensing this information into a digestible form.” (79:03, Graff)
• On the essence of entrepreneurship:
  “Entrepreneurs and businessmen are heroes, because they don't just solve their own problems, they solve other people's problems. And that's why they deserve recognition and reward.” (48:55, Graff)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:02 — Cypherpunk resistance and Bitcoin’s novelty
• 08:56 — “I’ve got nothing to hide” as the most dangerous phrase
• 13:47 — The normalization of surveillance and state psyops
• 18:37 — Measuring freedom: “mean time to harassment” (vonu)
• 22:51 — The steep personal cost and risk of resisting tax/theft
• 39:47–45:37 — State of Bitcoin privacy, Zcash comparison, novel cryptographic approaches
• 48:55 — Three axioms of Austrian economics (action, argumentation, voluntary exchange)
• 51:55–56:37 — Explaining minimum wage, voluntary contracts, and unemployment
• 57:07–59:13 — Broken window fallacy, destruction as negative-sum
• 63:41–65:42 — Subjective value as core to Austrian economics
• 85:15–89:34 — Intellectual property as a mistake; free sharing of ideas

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Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in Austrian economics, the morality and utility of privacy, and the practical path from digital surveillance to parallel, freedom-preserving economies. Graff and Hillebrand draw direct lines from the “default” acceptance of state control—through manipulative education and economic fallacies—to why society is being impoverished, and point squarely to both technological and philosophical routes out. The show is dense, direct, and filled with memorable analogies and actionable advice—above all, to learn, build, and fight the war of ideas as much as the war for privacy.

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For further reading and free access to Konrad Graff’s book:
towardsliberty.com/pop

Transcript

[Konrad Graff]

A lot of the things that you produce just go away. And that's even discounting just the money, right? You're forced to use the US dollar. The US dollar is one of the most mighty printing presses ever. The sad story of the cypherpunks is that they've built incredible ideas, powerful code, but they're just humans and they can be killed. And they have been kidnapped, tortured and killed for decades. And that war is ongoing and people will continue to sacrifice their lives in order to make these tools a reality. Scarcity is at the root of property, and we needed scarcity in cyberspace for money. That's why bitcoin is such a massive achievement. We've introduced scarcity in cyberspace without a trusted third party. It's never existed before Bitcoin. Now the question is, how do we allocate our scarce resources such that we will solve our problems in the future? And that is what action is, is all about.

[Max Hillebrand]

Max Hillebrand. Man, we have been trying to make this show for such a long time.

[Konrad Graff]

Well, it happens when it happens.

[Max Hillebrand]

We're finally here. So I want to start with a question that bugs me. Whenever you talk to someone who doesn't really know that they should care about privacy, they'll always say, it's fine, I'm doing nothing wrong. And those are the people that are now using, especially with AI, they're giving up so much data to companies that it's kind of terrifying. And it makes me wonder if the fight for privacy now is kind of over for most people if you don't

[Konrad Graff]

do anything about it. It really is like the tools of surveillance have gotten so good, like so scarily good, that if you don't take extra precautions, you have very little secrets left. And we all want to have some secrets, you know, but the cool thing is that for the last 30, 40 years or something, the cypherpunks have really worked hard to build tools that make privacy impossible. And so if you use modern technologies and you learn a little bit on how to use them and just choose the right applications in your tech stack, basically you can have serious levels of privacy. You can have very well protected communications, anonymous communications, and secure sound money that all rely on privacy as a whole, but it's absolutely achievable. You just got to know how.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah, it's funny though, because the tools, if you signal, as an example, I have basically every single person on signal now. I've managed to get even my elderly family onto it because I stole this from Odell. But it's the only place to get baby pictures. And so, like, and that tool is amazing. It's really easy to use. It looks like any other, like, communication app. So the tools have got really good. So they're usable. But at the same time, everyone moves towards, like, using the frontier AI models and are probably, like, putting pictures they shouldn't be putting up in there of, like, their family, their kids. They're asking financial information about, like, they're doing everything that they shouldn't be doing in terms of protecting your actual privacy. Like. So while. I guess the point is, while the apps are getting better, more usable, at the same time, I feel like it's accelerating on the data collection side even faster. Yeah. And I don't know how you pull someone who's, like, partly in that world where they are giving up way too much information. How do you pull them out? What can they come out with? And how do they get into a world that they are, like, retaining their information?

[Konrad Graff]

The problem is that it's always easier to build technology that doesn't protect the privacy of users.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

Because to really protect users is an extra effort, and that requires technological protocol and just user experience, design, and skills that take longer to build. And so we see that now with the frontier models, they don't care about your privacy. Right. They want to see how you're using the software so that they can improve it further on.

[Max Hillebrand]

Is that part true? Is it so they can improve it, or have they got other incentives?

[Konrad Graff]

I mean, that's one of the reasons they need a whole bunch of text in order to make the system better. And that goes for anything. If you know how the users are using the software, when they get frustrated, when it works well for them, then you can make your app better. Just listening to users is a very powerful thing to make tools work better. The problem is, what if the users don't want you to listen?

[Max Hillebrand]

Obviously, they are doing that. They're using it to train new models, they're using it to make the user interface better, all that stuff. But what else are they doing? That's the scary part.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah. Yes, that is the really scary part. And it basically comes down to censorship. If you're asking stuff that they don't want you to ask about, then very quickly they will suspend your account. So they're checking for policies that you uphold, the terms and conditions and so on. And of course, they could collaborate with governments to hand over this information. I'm sure they do to some extent. Every big tech firm collaborates with the state, and that's A problem. But the cool thing is we already now today have AI solutions that are

[Max Hillebrand]

reasonably private and really good, like Maple. I use it all the time. Very, very good. It's probably, I don't know, 10, 20% behind a frontier model, but it's definitely good enough. And I use both. To be honest, I care about privacy and I try and do everything I can to, to sort of maximize that, but there are times when I mess up and like, sometimes there's times where I'll type something into like a frontier model and be like, you are an idiot.

[Konrad Graff]

Like, believe that.

[Max Hillebrand]

There's other times when I've done it and, you know, enter that information and afterwards I've been like, fuck, yeah. But you're right, like, the tools are really, really good. I think Maple is an incredible product. I use a lot. It's just. It's hard to make people care. Which is, I guess, why you wrote this book.

[Konrad Graff]

Yes.

[Max Hillebrand]

And the cool thing about this book is it's not just like a privacy handbook. It's like privacy and economics.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah, exact.

[Max Hillebrand]

I know. You're like the deeply rooted Austrian school. Why does privacy matter in economics?

[Konrad Graff]

It matters for a whole bunch of reasons. And the main reason that I wrote this book is because the economists don't really understand the cypherpunks. If you look [e-mail] 2012, 2013, every article about bitcoin was like, no, this isn't a great idea. It can't work in the long run.

[Max Hillebrand]

And what was the reasoning when they

[Konrad Graff]

said that because digital goods are not scarce and money needs to be scarce, and they didn't really realize that bitcoin solved the double spending problem, which introduces scarcity in cyberspace. The core idea of money is that if I give you money, then I no longer have it. And that's not how PDF documents or music files work. If I give you the copy, I still have the original. So the scarcity aspect isn't there in cyberspace. That's what makes cyberspace so beautiful. But it's very critical for money that we have that. And then the other aspect was that, oh, well, the government is just going to shut it down. And, well, the cypherpunks realized that we don't care, we just keep building, we keep using, we will resist the state. And so ultimately, I think those two main reasons, a kind of a lack of computer science understanding and then an assumption that the resistance against the state is not possible in the digital realm, was why they didn't get it. And so it took Quite a long time before more Austrian economists really started to hone on and be like, no, this is actually useful. Konrad Graff was very important in that. Stefan Kinsella as well. But that took very, very long, way too long than it should be, because bitcoin is obviously Austrian economics embodied. Exactly. So that is the first side of why this book matters so much to me at least. And then the other side is that the cypherpunks don't understand the economics of it. Like, there were so many cypherpunk projects that failed in ways that if they would have understand praxeology better, they would have designed the system in a different way. And that's in part because it's difficult to design the system properly so that it survives censorship and shutdown. And so this book is kind of here to get my two friend groups to meet and be like, you should really talk to each other because both of you are trying to solve the similar set of problems, but you're going about it in very different ways. And both of these ways are extremely valuable. And if we put them together, I think we have a really good shot at making the world a much freer place.

[Max Hillebrand]

Awesome. I think the best place for us to dive into the book is the thing that you talk about right at the start we were kind of talking about a little bit before, which is a lot of people, when you try and talk to them about privacy, will say, I've got nothing to hide. Yeah. Like, why do you think that is sort of one of the most dangerous sentences that is uttered today?

[Konrad Graff]

It's. I mean, if you have nothing to hide, you're just a very boring person. We all have things that we don't want everyone to know. And I think it's a definitional mistake. People think that privacy is about full anonymity, that nobody knows you, that nobody knows what you're doing, and so on. And that's a part of privacy, but privacy actually defined. And again, that's where the cypherpunks come in. Eric Hughes, specifically, privacy is the ability to selectively reveal yourself to the world. Privacy is a choice, a choice freely made on what to say to whom and when. And if that's the proper framing of privacy, then it's a synonym for freedom. If you cannot choose what to say to whom, if someone can force you to reveal an information that you don't want to tell him, then that's not freedom, that's slavery. And if that's the fundamental starting point, then you start to realize it's just what humans do. We first think and then we speak and we think about the stuff that we want to say. And we don't say many things for many reasons. For one, because it might be rude to say the first thing that comes to your mind and then we catch ourselves, let's phrase that a little bit more diplomatic. That's one of the reasons. But it also then leads to just free action itself. And so the ultimate conclusion of the economic side of the book is that if we don't have privacy, if there is someone else who can surveil you and who watches your actions and, and you cannot escape, then this means that you will not buy the goods that you would actually want to have. And that means that prices start to be manipulated. And it's a little bit similar to what inflation does to the market economy that we buy the stuff that we don't actually want because we're kind of tricked into it, because inflation and we build the stuff that we don't really need as well. And so this malinvestment and over consumption leads to a boom and bust cycle ultimately where we build the things that we don't really want. And we waste our time, capital and precious effort on things that are not really the best interest that we would like to do. So ultimately it makes us poorer. If we don't have privacy, if there's surveillance everywhere, then we're all worse off.

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[Max Hillebrand]

I think that the increase in surveillance is like a slow creep towards like the world we live in today. Like, the question I would have is, if you went back 100 years, I can't imagine anyone saying I've got nothing to hide. Like, is this a psyop? Where's it come from, this idea that, that people are okay with surveillance because they don't think they need to hide anything?

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's a psyop. Basically. Like people have been trained to not use the tools of defense that they ought to. There is this great paper on the discourse of voluntary servitude. Because if you look throughout the history of mankind, one thing that was always the case is that the number of slaves was way larger than the number of slave masters. And if the oppressed people would realize that they're oppressed and they would start doing something about it, the slave masters have no chance simply because they're outnumbered. And so the trick of the government is to make you think that you're free when actually you're not. And just exactly that linguistic trap of I have nothing to hide is similar to who's going to build the roads. It's like a linguistic trap to make you think that you can't protect yourself and someone else will protect yourself, but. And that someone else has your best interest at heart. But if you look closer, that's just not the case.

[Max Hillebrand]

And it's one of those things that people who might say that will also be self censoring because they clearly don't feel completely free in what they can do. And like you said before, there are times when self censoring is a good thing. I can choose to not say the first thing that comes into my head when I'm talking to you. But when does it become a bad thing? When is self censorship a huge issue?

[Konrad Graff]

When the consequences of you speaking the truth are worse to you individually than actually speaking properly. So we see this a lot in dictatorships. I mean, that's here, Oslo Freedom Forum. We have this often where during the Communist occupation of Czechoslovakia, for example, Vaclav Havel and Vaclav Bender both were writing about this. Where everyone had, in his storefront, the butcher, the carpenter had a sign in the window of workers of the world unite. It was an empty slogan. Nobody believed it, but everyone had to do it. And so you start living the lie. And that is very, very depressing. But the problem is, if you don't do it, you go to the Gulag. If you're not a member of the Communist Party, your children will not go to school, your children will not get a job, and your cousin will get fired as well. So the cost of speaking the truth would be way higher than just going

[Max Hillebrand]

along with the lie.

[Konrad Graff]

Going along with the lie. And then we just all lie to each other constantly. And that's a dreadful experience.

[Max Hillebrand]

So if you took, like today, the country probably that values freedom, at least outwardly the most, is probably America, would you say, like, that's like their slogan, that everything they do is about freedom? Do you think the people living there who are being surveilled are like, giving up data to all the big tech companies in Silicon Valley? Do you think they're actually free? Or do you think they're being oppressed without knowing it?

[Konrad Graff]

They're being oppressed without knowing it. I mean, to be fair, like, freedom is a very rare and very precious thing. And we don't have much of it if you actually look at it, right? Like if you need a license to cut someone else's hair like crazy, that's not freedom. Yeah. You know, if like 50% of your paycheck just disappears before it even hits your bank account, like, that's not free either. You know, like back in the days, like with the balls and shackles, slavery, like the slaves could keep a whole bunch of the things that they produce just to sustain themselves. Right now, case they, like, a lot of the things that you produce just go away. Right. And that's even discounting just the money, Right. You're forced to use the US dollar. The US dollar is one of the most mighty printing presses ever. Right? And so now there's a whole bunch of theft happening in America and a whole bunch of censorship. Like all of the big tech platforms, you know, YouTube, Google, Facebook, all of these, they're all American and they're definitely not free speech platforms. Right. There is so much content that gets deleted there. There's so much shadow banning happening where the content might be out there, but they will change the algorithm so that nobody will see it. That's highly manipulative. So we're unfortunately quite far away from an actual free market where choices are made freely by those who want to engage with it.

[Max Hillebrand]

And the hard thing with this is, like, I know that you've been living on Bitcoin for a long time. Like, you're. I'm sure your privacy practices are in the top point 1%, but still, if you walk down the street here in Oslo, there's going to be security cameras watching you. Like, you're still being surveilled. Like, are you free?

[Konrad Graff]

No, like not. Not to the. To the extent that I would like to. There is a lot of things that I have to do that I don't want to. Ultimately, a thinker from the 1970s, an American thinker called Rayo, an anonymous guy, he wrote a book on vonu, which means voluntary, not vulnerable. And he came up with a fascinating metric to answer exactly that question of how free are you? Because that's actually a difficult question to answer. And so his idea is the mean time to harassment, or in other words, when was the last time that you were stolen from? That's a really useful metric. And the goal for freedom lovers is to increase that metric, increase the time in between where you were physically harassed, stolen from, where you had to ask for permission. And he realized that that number is extremely low, extremely low for most people.

[Max Hillebrand]

Can you talk about the things that you would consider being stolen from.

[Konrad Graff]

So theft is broadly defined as like seven different categories. There's obviously murder, Right? That's the bad one. Right. You steal someone's life, then you have theft of physical property. You have coercion, which is the threat of violence, so that you change your actions.

[Max Hillebrand]

So taxes would fit into that?

[Konrad Graff]

Absolutely. Taxes are theft. Taxes are both the coercion that if you don't pay them, you'll go to prison, and then the actual taking of your property, your money and so on. Right. Then you have contract violations, for example. So this is when you've agreed to do something and then you don't do that. That's the theft of the counterparty you have whenever you have to ask for permission. The hairdresser, for example, he's being stolen from in applying his own body and tools in a way that he sees fit by someone who says, no, you need a license for that. Rape, of course, that's theft of your sexual autonomy and trespassing. That's theft of your dwelling place and your freedom to live peacefully in your own home. And lying ultimately closely tied, especially with contracts fraud, basically theft, usually of money that was given in exchange for the contract that was lied upon.

[Max Hillebrand]

So with that definition, I was stolen from 30 minutes ago.

[Konrad Graff]

Exactly. Yes, you were stolen from.

[Max Hillebrand]

I went to buy a sandwich.

[Konrad Graff]

You bought a sandwich? Yeah. And you paid like, what, 20% value added tax?

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

And last time you drove a car, man, you needed to have a license, you needed to have a registered car, etc. There's a lot of theft happening. If you really honestly define it and look at it, it's scary.

[Max Hillebrand]

And there'll be people listening to this that aren't like, familiar with the Austrian sort of framework and will think me paying tax is not theft. What would you say to that?

[Konrad Graff]

Well, try not paying it. Like, there's countless people kidnapped and in jail, like right now as we speak, because they made a mistake filing it, or they just for ethical reasons choose not to support that system and, you know, religious reasons, etc. And they're tortured. Like, imprisonment is an insane torture. Like they asked, did the study on lots of imprisoned people of, like, would you prefer physical torture if you could get out of here? Most of them said yes. So prisons are horrendous institutions and they get applied for peaceful people who've done nothing wrong, who simply said no to a thief that came with a gun.

[Max Hillebrand]

Do you think that there's any way out of this system that we live in for everyone, or do you think this is going to be a thing where you have a small group of people that manage to live outside of this system.

[Konrad Graff]

I think the option to live freer or to choose towards a freer world is there for everyone. It doesn't come for free. There are costs there and they can be quite substantial. And so many people will, even those who understand it might not want to pursue this path. Yeah. And then just countless people don't understand it.

[Max Hillebrand]

I mean I would fall into that, that category. Like I'm not going to go and not pay my taxes. Like that's, that's not something that I'm willing to risk. Like I have a family. Like there are things that I, that will come above that for me. Yeah. And that's why I see it as

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

such a hard battle.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah. And that's I think where the cypherpunks come in with their amazing strategy of if we increase the cost of attack, if we make it more difficult for the thief to steal, if it's more expensive for him, then he will no longer be profitable. Because if it takes you 10 bitcoin to buy the people and the machines and so on and the guns to steal one Bitcoin, they've just decreased your wealth by nine Bitcoin. So that's stupid. And there's a praxeology to violence where thieves are entrepreneurs too and if they're not profitable they will stop. And then simultaneously if we decrease the cost of defense, then more and more people will choose to protect themselves simply because the means are available at an affordable rate.

[Max Hillebrand]

Do you think this is the reason that Austrian economics isn't so widely taught anywhere? It's kind of a niche school of economics because it's seen as dangerous by these people.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah. And especially by the thieves. The thieves don't like a well educated slave for forever. Right. There was, was a very severe penalty in the Roman Empire when you taught your slave how to read because they would realize that it is an unjust system or they would be closer to realizing that. So yeah, education has always been, or a lot of education has been controlled by the slave masters. And they clearly do not want their slaves to revolt. And that's why the grand heroes of Austrian economic thought had substantial difficulties to actually get teaching positions even at universities. Like Mary Rothbard was teaching at a New York university and he was paid almost nothing, even though he's like one of the greatest economic minds that ever lived. And then later he finally got a paid job at the Las Vegas University, but it was like a clergy Level like very, very, very, very low. Ludwig von Mises had a great term for this back in the Austrian Hungarian Empire. So the mainstream economists at the universities, he called them the intellectual bodyguards of the House of Hohenzollern, which were like the kings back then. So they have an intellectual bodyguard that trick people into thinking that being ruled by a master is correct and useful and you should be thankful for it. And we absolutely see this today. I mean, America is a great example of this. People stay in the American school system until they're like what, 25 and in debt for multi million dollars. And at the end they've had a proper indoctrination of loving the state ultimately. And we see this everywhere. The school system that we are currently using goes back to the Prussians because the Prussians lost the war against Napoleon and realized that they need more obedient soldiers. So a psychology professor, I forgot his name, researched on how can we make more obedient soldiers that will follow orders and just blindly march into their death without retreating and deserting. So they came up with the outcome based education system, which is basically that. And we have this exact same system right now. Like, you sit in a classroom, everyone faces the teacher. You have to sit down. When you're told to sit down, the teacher knows the answer. And you are here to get the wisdom from the teacher. And your success is measured by you repeating the truth of the teacher back correctly. And it's not based on the trivium process of how to actually achieve understanding and wisdom.

[Max Hillebrand]

It's about recollection.

[Konrad Graff]

It's about recollection. Right. So it's not, you're not there to think, you're there to memorize and to repeat back what you were told. And that is, I think, the root cause of a lot of the suffering in this world. I mean, it's what started the first War and the Second World War and all the American wars that came after that are, I think, heavily rooted in the education system and of course the money system. But those are big problems.

[Max Hillebrand]

So when you take the, the sort of biggest minds in Austrian economics, like I, I've read a few books now, a lot of them from your recommendation. But like, obviously you know this, this group of texts way better than I do. Like, do they ever talk about privacy?

[Konrad Graff]

Well, it's kind of in the word private property, interestingly. Right. So it's kind of at the, at the very root of it, but they've never so clearly articulated it. I think they, they've underappreciated the Power of what privacy really is. There is a lot of this on unvoluntary disclosure. The gist of Austrian economics is actions should be voluntary and that defined by Hughes. To choose what to reveal to whom is based on voluntary revelation as well. There was then a lot of thoughts on, for example, can we have non disclosure agreements? Can you and I sign a contract that says, hey, I will tell you a secret and I will pay you, but under the condition that you don't reveal the secret to someone else.

[Max Hillebrand]

If that's an opt in contract for both of you, that seems okay to me.

[Konrad Graff]

Exactly right. So this was one of the conclusions that the Austrians reached, but they never really were that much technologists like Murray Rothbard only typed on a typewriter.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah. Is that why is it the world that they were writing these in is very different to the world we live in today?

[Konrad Graff]

Yes, ultimately. And it wasn't just their main passion, I would guess they were really into how can we design better contracting schemes, how could we design a government that is less predatory and so on. But not one of the common philosophy of Austrian economics is like, oh, the market will fix it. It's just that we are the market, we actually have to fix it. Yeah, for this I just value the cypherpunks because they're like, no, okay, we don't have to petition for the government, we have to write the code and we have to deploy it. Ron Paul, one of the amazing Austrian economist influencers, he's a politician, he has been lobbying to end the Fed for like, I don't know, 50 years or something and apparently not succeeded. It's still there, they're still printing like more than ever. And I guess it never really came to their mind to just use build an alternative system. They're very much advocating for the gold standard, but for the government to adopt the gold standard and sure, for individuals to save in gold, et cetera, that too, but to really radically create a new monetary system that cannot be stopped the same way that gold could be stopped just wasn't really that much there.

[Max Hillebrand]

I mean there's people also doing that in Bitcoin, trying to make nation states adopt Bitcoin. And what do you feel about that? How do you feel about that?

[Konrad Graff]

Well, I don't like thieves to have tech that is unstoppable. So I'm not the biggest fan of it. I much more care about individuals being able to protect themselves. It's inevitable that thieves will use Bitcoin. They were probably one of the early adopters as well. Just because thieves are at the edges of society and they need the best technologies to stay ahead of the game. So to some extent, unfortunately, bad people will use Bitcoin and that includes the state. There's not much that we can do about that. That's why Bitcoin is a good, fair, neutral money, and that's why it will succeed in the long run.

[Max Hillebrand]

So where does lack of privacy in the sort of Keynesian world that we live in today? Where does that sort of distort the market? Where does it break things like you're

[Konrad Graff]

not buying things that you would have bought otherwise, ultimately? So you know that that might be books right there. There are some books that you probably don't want to buy on Amazon with your name because you know that might be. Might lead to flagged. You will get flagged exactly right. You know, like during COVID people were buying Ivermectine, for example. If you bought that on a bank account, then they probably knew about it and they would come after you. So a lot of these goods were. The powers would do you harm if they found out that you have them. You just don't buy them. And this means we decrease the demand for these goods and that means that there will be less produced. Even though people actually want to have this for numerous different reasons, they would not be able or not really willing to buy it at that rate. And then the entrepreneurs who have correctly anticipated the demand of these goods would make less profit, because even though there is actual demand, it's not executed upon because the cost is too high. And so these entrepreneurs who have successfully predicted what humans will want in the future, who should be rewarded for that incredibly difficult task that they've achieved, they now get punished by their business having less revenue and so on, while simultaneously the, the, the businesses that are working on the things that the state forces you to, to. To do, or at least heavily encourages you to do, they will get more and more business.

[Max Hillebrand]

They get outsized reward.

[Konrad Graff]

Exactly like, you know, the, the painters of sign of workers of the world unite. They got a whole bunch of business.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

Not because people actually wanted to have the sign, but just because if they didn't, they, they would get into trouble. And so everyone had to get one.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

And so the only way out of

[Max Hillebrand]

this then is by building parallel systems.

[Konrad Graff]

It's not the only way, but it's I think the way that is the least violent and the most peaceful and the one with the least harm, plus the one that works without the majority agreeing upon it. The problem of the whole politicking scheme is that sure, you can try to convince the politicians, but then first of all, that's difficult. But even if you do succeed, a whole bunch of people will be angry. The core of the political system is violence and of you forcing others to do what you want rather than what they want. We've seen that with the bitcoin strategic reserve, a lot of people were like, no, I don't want that. My tax money gets used to pump the bags of the early bitcoiners. I don't want that. And they have a right in saying that. Right. But we forced them to spend their tax money on buying more bitcoin. Right. For example, I mean, didn't really happen in America yet, but that was the claim or the goal. And so people won't like our ideas. And if we force them, then turns out that we are the baddies. And that's why I'm not a big fan of the political means entirely. I would rather work with people who would like to work with me and build the ideas that they agree with and not force them on things that they don't really want to do. And that's the beauty of the parallel economy. It's there for the people who want to. But we're not forcing anyone to join us. We're very open for anyone to come over to the free side of the world and will gladly accept you as long as you're being productive. And you're actually helping us very much, not welcoming thieves. But ultimately we're not forcing you to be part of this.

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[Max Hillebrand]

I want to go back to something we talked about before in terms of that freedom index. When were you last stolen from? What's your best ever run at that?

[Konrad Graff]

To be honest, not long because I buy stuff in stores and there's a massive tax on that. I have a driver license, I drive a car. It's really really really actually difficult and then it's difficult in the modern world to do this just as a single individual living now. Try to do this as a business, like try to feed a family, right? Try to feed 30 employees and like building goods and services without being stolen from. It's basically impossible. And that just shows you how dire the situation is. Like we can't build a pencil without theft. How sad is that? Right. And why is that? It's deeply perplexing that humans are just so used to stealing from each other and that it makes me sad.

[Max Hillebrand]

Like I think the big problem there is, I don't think people understand that your definition of theft. I think there would be people in normie world that would like not consider a lot of the things they do as theft, even though I think they should. Yeah. And I don't know how you turn that around like this. This is a. This isn't a five year problem, this is a 100 year problem.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah. This is a multi generational thing. Thing. Right. And Ludwig V emphasized just the power of ideas. Like ideas are incredible because with the right ideas we do the right things and with the wrong ideas we do the wrong things. And for a long time, especially in the last hundred years or so, wrong ideas were proliferated as the truth. And that leads to so much pain and suffering. And that's why it's important to write books, to do podcasts, to tell people about good and useful ideas and to try to win in this marketplace of ideas, to make people realize that some of their world set and mind view is not really proper. Right. Not right, not good. And yeah, that's hard work.

[Max Hillebrand]

What do you think of the state of bitcoin privacy right now? Because obviously like we saw what happened with Bill and Keone Samurai devs, there's been like a big resurgence of zcash pumping online. I think that's a lot of the Silicon Valley VCs, but like that that narrative is growing that bitcoin doesn't have good enough privacy and therefore people should be using zcash. What's your overall take on it?

[Konrad Graff]

The problem of Bitcoin is Bitcoin privacy is architectural. In order to receive bitcoin and to validate that you actually got bitcoin, you need to validate and look at every other transaction that came before you from everyone else on the planet. For the history of bitcoin. That's a stupid design. It's a non private design. You cannot make a bitcoin transaction without telling the entire world about the transaction. And that's the limit of the privacy. You have to reveal yourself in order to use the system. And that sucks. There's two major solutions to it fundamentally on the blockchain layer. The first is coinjoin, where we create transactions together rather than alone. And that increases the size of the crowd. And all of a sudden it becomes very difficult to see where are the inputs going to which outputs. That's coinjoin. It's Wasabi Wallet. It's a solved problem. Like with Wasabi 2.0 and the Wabi Sabi protocol, you get fantastic privacy on chain. And it works, continues to work, it's super easy, it's automated, very little mental transaction costs and mental friction. So that's a solved aspect. The second solution is to swap histories. If I have a coin with a certain transaction history and you have a coin with a different transaction history, we can atomically swap the coin to so that I end up having your transaction history and you end up having mine. And if we keep doing this often enough, then all of the analysis of the blockchain becomes meaningless because we never know if a transaction stayed with the person or if it swapped to someone else. And ultimately the Lightning network is a coin swap network. They also moved the swaps off chain, which is another fantastic benefit. You can make a lightning transaction without the entire world having to see it. And so that also solves the the fundamental problem itself. So we have two incredible solutions like coinjoin for on chain transactions. There's also some research and work in progress on coin swaps on the blockchain, but we have a fantastic coin swap network in the Lightning network which is also faster, cheaper and so on. So two fantastic solutions in the long run. What I'm most excited about and where I think long term the privacy of Bitcoin will head is with a concept called shielded client side validation. RGB is an instantiation of client side validation. It basically means that instead of everyone having to validate every transaction, only the receiver has to validate the transaction history of the sender. So it's a client side validation rather than global consensus validation that Bitcoin is currently. And recently a couple geniuses found out how we can add zero knowledge proofs in these things so that even the receiver of a coin does not learn the transaction history of the sender, but he can validate in zero knowledge that it is a valid coin with a valid history or chain of signatures without any inflation. So the receiver can validate all of these things that we need to validate in order to move Bitcoin properly without learning anything about it.

[Max Hillebrand]

And this is like bitvm roll up stuff.

[Konrad Graff]

So no, shielded CSV is a second layer accounting mechanism, a little bit like the Lightning network. The real problem is how do we get the Bitcoin from the base layer into the second layer and out of the second layer back into the base Layer trustlessly without any single party or consortium. And that was the original vision of the blockstream research group that worked on sidechains. How do we get this trustless two way peg they called it. How can we get out of the blockchain and back into the blockchain without the trusted third party? And in order to do this we need something like bitvm or changes to the bitcoin consensus protocol. But the cool thing is there's now like four or five really theoretical cryptographic research teams that are trying to solve this two way PEG problem. As soon as we have that solved, Bitcoin scalability and privacy is solved forever, I think, because then we will just peg out of the slow, expensive and non private base layer into a second layer accounting system similar to Lightning, but with way better privacy guarantees than Lightning, with even way better privacy guarantees than zcash. Like for zcash, you still have to validate every transaction in a zero knowledge proof with zero knowledge. Sorry. With the shielded client side validation, the full nodes don't have to validate anything. They don't have to validate signatures, they don't have to validate spending conditions, they just validate proof of work and they collect a set of accumulators or nullifiers, just large numbers that you put in a database. That's basically it. So you can do some really powerful stuff with this. And over the last couple of years we've not only improved the second layer accounting privacy. Again, shielded CSV is kind of the pinnacle of what we have so far. We've also found ways of doing these two way pegs without having to change the bitcoin consensus model. So I'm extremely bullish on this. And you know, funny that you bring up zcash because I heard haven't really verified, but just recently zcash found some bug in their shielded private payment pool and so they just made a hard fork or the miners stopped mining transactions in this pool. Right. So zcash is a cool research project and they've done some amazing cryptographic work, but it's not really a decentralized money system if someone can flip the finger and transactions are no longer happening. So if you had money in the shielded pool and we're using zcash anonymously right now, you cannot spend them anymore. I mean, that kind of sucks.

[Max Hillebrand]

That definitely sucks.

[Konrad Graff]

So we need systems that are not just anonymous, but also unstoppable. And it seems that Bitcoin has successfully done the unstoppable part and it's already almost impossible. To build unstoppable systems. It's already almost impossible to build anonymous systems. But to build unstoppable and anonymous systems, that's like the holy grail. And it's no wonder that it's taken us so long. It's literally at the edges of human consciousness and computer science and we just need to fail a million times before we will find the one nugget that makes it work.

[Max Hillebrand]

That's the most bullish I've heard you on Bitcoin privacy ever.

[Konrad Graff]

I think.

[Max Hillebrand]

Cause like, I think last time we spoke was quite a while ago. I can't remember where we were hanging out, but you were talking about this would have been before all this new novel stuff would come out. But like these systems at the time were not failing, but they were being stopped. Like when the samurai developers got put in jail and I know Wasabi removed themselves from the US that felt like a huge step backwards. This feels like a giant leap forwards.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah, yeah. The downside is again with Coinjoin specifically, we made Bitcoin anonymous. We did not inherently make the anonymizing technology unstoppable in its single instantiation. CK Snacks, the company who created Wasabi shut down, shut down their services and that Coinjoin coordinator stopped working. Yeah, but in a slight roundabout way. Right. The code is open source, always has been. Right. The ideas have been created, the code was created. And ideas are bulletproof. And as long as there are courageous people that will continue running the software, both on the operator as well as the user side, it will continue to work. And we see now that Coinjoin volumes are higher than before. Right. So there are always going to be some people who care about this so much that they will make sure that it keeps running. The question is, can we design these systems so that there isn't even a single operator in the first place? And this is also something with Bit vm. Like there are probably depends on the nuances. But they're probably going to be operators of these two way bridges and they will be the choke point of the future. And the kind of the sad story of the cypherpunks is that they've built incredible ideas, powerful code, but they're just humans and they can be killed and they have been kidnapped, tortured and killed for decades and that war is ongoing and people will continue to sacrifice their lives in order to make these tools a reality. And that just shows you how much these people believe in it. There's really something there for martyrs to like. They do it for a reason. And Maybe you should look into the reason why people are willing to sacrifice themselves for the broader good of humanity.

[Max Hillebrand]

It's fucking awesome, man. Before we move on to something else, I want to talk about what else in the book are the things that. Because I know it sucks, I've not read this before doing this, but what else should we be getting into?

[Konrad Graff]

So there's. The first part of the book really is about the economics. The second part of the book is about the implementation. Maybe a couple more interesting words about the economics because there are three core concepts that I think you have to really understand in order to appreciate the full spectrum of freedom and especially of privacy. And those are the starting points, the axioms, the things that are self evident to a large extent. And this is the methodology of the Austrian school. The Austrians are special because they have a different way of thinking about economic problems, different than the Keynesians, different than the Historicism school, different than the Chicago school. And I think it is an incredibly useful way of thinking about the problem. And so Ludwig Vam Mises came up with the first axiom that's covered in the book, and that's the action axiom, which is kind of obvious if you frame it this way. But it's really hard to come up with that frame in the first place. But it basically says that humans have problems and we try to fix them. That's ultimately what human action is. Mises would say that we live in a state of uneasiness and that we have an uncertain future. And we have means, we have resources, we have goods, our body, our time, our home, our wood, our meat, et cetera. And now the question is, how do we allocate our scarce resources such that we will solve our problems in the future? And that is what action is all about, ultimately. And the entrepreneurial spark, the creative idea of, of figuring out what will be the problems in the future and how do we allocate our resources today in order to fix them in the future. And not only for you yourself, but also for others. And that's why entrepreneurs and businessmen are heroes, because they don't just solve their own problems, they solve other people's problems. And that's why they deserve recognition and reward. But ultimately this all comes down to, to action itself, to analyze the consequences of human action. I kind of like to think of psychology talks about the reason why we act in certain ways, and economics is about, regardless of why we act that way, what are the consequences of these types of actions. So a very praxologically rigorous sentence is that the Minimum wage leads to unemployment. And that is true. And there is a very obvious logical chain of reasoning that gets you from human action to minimum wage leads to unemployment.

[Max Hillebrand]

We should go through that chain.

[Konrad Graff]

So basically, humans act, right? So we have problems. We want to live in a house and not be out in the rain. No, wait, we're doing minimum wage, not price controls. So, okay, we want to produce a dinner to not be hungry anymore. And so that's our goal. Create food, not be hungry. Now we have our resources. Some flour, some salamis, cucumbers, whatever. And we want to make a sandwich. We need labor to produce anything, so we need to get someone to build it for us. We also need ideas. You could have all of the natural resources that you want. If you don't know how to use them, you will not be able to solve any of our problems. So ideas are part of the means of production that are needed. And now we want to allocate our scarce resources and transform them into a consumption good. So there are production goods that are the things that will later produce the consumption goods. And consumption goods are the things that we destroy in order to solve our problems. After I eat the sandwich, it's gone, but I'm no longer hungry. So ultimately, humans consume stuff. We destroy stuff to make us happy. And first we need to produce and create the things that we will later destroy. And now the trick is to be able to produce things very efficiently. If it's inefficient to produce something, then it doesn't make sense to do. Again, if it takes you 10 bitcoin to produce something that you can sell for one bitcoin, no one's going to do it. No one's going to do it. And so the problem of a minimum wage is that it increases the cost of production to more than what people would voluntarily be paid for, right? Let's say, to stick with this example, you want to produce the sandwich. You know, you can produce the sandwich for. You can sell the sandwich for one bitcoin. That's what the people are willing to pay for. And let's say it costs you 0.5 bitcoin to get all of the raw materials together. And let's say it would cost you 0.3 Bitcoin to get the. To hire the person to put it together, right? So your cost of production are 0.7 Bitcoin, and your revenue would be 1 Bitcoin. So you make 0.3 Bitcoin profit, right? You're going to do it like 30 million sats that's a lot of sats. Like, I'll happily sell you the sandwich for that right now. What if the state comes and says, you are not allowed to hire someone for 0.3 Bitcoin. You can only hire them if you Pay them double. 0.6 Bitcoin. Now this is a triangular intervention. As Rothbard would have said it, the state or anyone comes to you and coerces you under the threat of violence that you are not allowed to do a business with someone else. So Alice and Bob are not allowed to work together unless Alice pays Bob 0.6 Bitcoin instead of 0.3, which at first glance sounds great. Bob is going to get more money. This is awesome. Why not? We want the workers to make a lot of money. But the problem is now we've increased our costs from 0.7 Bitcoin to 1.1 Bitcoin. So all of a sudden we're no longer profitable. We have to spend more than one bitcoin, like 1.5 bitcoin, whatever, in order to produce the thing that the people will only buy from us voluntarily at one bitcoin. Nobody is willing to buy it from us at 1.5 Bitcoin. So I would lose money if I offer the good. So what will I do? I will not hire Bob or increase the price. I could increase the price, but then they would not buy it, right? So I wouldn't have the customers. And so I just simply cannot afford to hire Bob anymore. So I have to let him go. I have to shut down my business. So it leads to unemployment because it increases the cost of productions higher than it otherwise would have been.

[Max Hillebrand]

And Bob might be willing to work for 0.3 Bitcoin.

[Konrad Graff]

That's the thing, right? Bob is happy. Bob wants to have the 0.3 Bitcoin. Again, 30 million cents is a lot of cents. I would do a lot of things for 0.3 Bitcoin, especially build a sandwich. So that's the problem with intervention, is that Alice and Bob were happy before. If Bob wouldn't have wanted to work for 0.3 Bitcoin, he wouldn't have done it. Right? As long as Alice didn't force him. Right? As long as Bob is not a slave and he's voluntarily choosing to work with Ellis, both are happy.

[Max Hillebrand]

Do you think it's like a lack of understanding of second and third order consequences? Because the reason that I think people are constantly trying to increase the minimum wage is because it feels good to be like, you should get more money. Are feelings Getting in the way of actual economics.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. There's a fantastic book by Perel Bydom called the Seen, the Unseen and the Unrealized which talks exactly about this. You know, in the classic example is the broken window fallacy.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah, you should explain that because people won't know exactly what it is.

[Konrad Graff]

So if you know, you have a butcher, he has a shop, right? The shop has a window and some hooligan comes along and throws a stone through the window, breaks it. The first obvious analysis of this is, well, that's great because Alice has a glass making shop, she makes windows and

[Max Hillebrand]

now she can get some money.

[Konrad Graff]

Oh, she's got some money. Like she has a job, right. She, she has a new customer that she otherwise wouldn't have. Alice is, is going to get rich because Bob will have to buy a new window from Alice. And, and that's, you know, that's again, like if, if we increase the minimum wage, people get more money. Isn't that great? But the problem is the unseen, the things that require a couple extra steps of analysis is that Bob the butcher who now has a broken window, he had some savings and his plans with his money, his capital was to take his daughter on a vacation. That is the thing that he was planning to spend the money on later. But now all of a sudden, because the window was broken when it was working perfectly fine before, he has to reduce the spending for the vacation in order to buy the window. So the unseen aspect is that Bob and his daughter will not have a fun time. And Charlie, who is running the hotel that Bob would have spent the money on, is now not getting the money. So we're reallocating the money away from Bob and Charlie, who would have traded voluntarily towards Bob and Alice. And Alice gets paid for something that was working perfectly fine before. This is the whole weird statist argument that going to war is great for the economy.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah, crazy.

[Konrad Graff]

Which is wild. We're producing things and then we're destroying the things in order to destroy other things. Bombs are expensive to produce and we just destroy the bombs by definition of it blowing up. And then we also destroy the houses and the equipment of the enemy. Right? So we produce stuff so that we can destroy a lot of stuff. And somehow that's supposed to make us rich.

[Max Hillebrand]

It makes no sense.

[Konrad Graff]

It makes absolutely no sense. Right. Unfortunately, it's a very, very, very common misunderstanding.

[Max Hillebrand]

And because people think the people working in the factories building the bombs, they're getting paid.

[Konrad Graff]

That's the thing. It's a resource shift. Like the Resources get allocated away from the peaceful people towards the military industrial complex. The people who produce the bombs, they get rich.

[Max Hillebrand]

And let's be honest, all these countries are running at a deficit that money's being created and making everyone else poorer in the meantime as well.

[Konrad Graff]

Exactly, yes. And that's the sad thing with the state. The state is exclusively funded by theft. Like definitionally, there's taxation and there's inflation. Those are the two ways that the state gets his money ultimately. And so anything the state spends money on is stolen from people. And the sad thing of theft is that it decreases the value of the society. And on the flip side, the beauty of free exchange is that by definition it makes both parties better off. If you have a sandwich and I have a steak, and I would prefer to have the sandwich and you would prefer to have the steak, then we can trade. And afterwards both of us are happier than before. That's why we did the trade, because we thought that we'll be better after the trade than before. That's why we voluntarily did it. So by definition with every trade, everyone is better. And on the flip side, if I have the steak and you have the sandwich, and I have also a five dollar wrench and I hit you and I take away the sandwich, now you have nothing, plus a lot of pain, but you're happy. I'm very happy, but you're not and you're prob.

[Max Hillebrand]

Less.

[Konrad Graff]

Less happy than I'm more happy.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

So we've destroyed something and obviously. Obviously. Right. Theft destroys things, war destroys things, breaking windows destroys things. It's the intuitively obvious, it should be common sense that that's a bad idea.

[Max Hillebrand]

Is part of that down to like the broken window fallacy, down to the discounting of the use of savings, like saving money is using money, is that discounted? And the idea of like speed of money moving around an economy over indexed.

[Konrad Graff]

Exactly. That's one of the Keynesian fallacies, is that saving money is a bad thing and spending it is good because it pushes up the GDP and the higher GDP is better. That's again a very short term thinking, because without savings you cannot produce anything. Like every production requires saving, it doesn't matter what it is. It's again a definitional argument of you cannot produce without having saved resources that you use in order to produce stuff. Obviously. And so if we decrease savings, we will produce less, if we increase savings, we will produce more eventually. And that goes back to time preference as well. The reason why people save basically to save means you have five ribeyes in the freezer. And instead of eating all of the five ribeyes today, which would satiate you instantly, you delay your gratification so that you go hungry today so that you can have food for the next couple days. So the more you save, the more you are actually delaying the satisfaction of things. And that is ultimately what makes us richer, is to not consume and consume and consume, but to think ahead for the future and to save our resources today, to consume less today so that we and our children and grandchildren will have more stuff that they can build greater projects with.

[Max Hillebrand]

GDP is obviously like a nonsense metric, but it's the metric that everyone uses to sort of judge economies against each other, judge your own economy against previous years. What would the Austrians say you should use for that? How do you measure the economy?

[Konrad Graff]

You shouldn't measure the economy ultimately. Like it's a methodological difference and more. I mean, you can obviously, but as soon as you create a metric, then people will try to optimize for that metric and.

[Max Hillebrand]

And so it creates the incentive you don't want to see.

[Konrad Graff]

Exactly. Yes. So you, I guess you should count for like, problem solved. Number of trades is a somewhat decent metric. Right. Number of voluntary trades should go up.

[Max Hillebrand]

Cost of goods.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah, cost of goods or prices are kind of the result of a whole bunch of trades happening. And if we can decrease our prices, that means we can solve more problems ultimately. Right? Because with less capital we can solve the problem. And that means we have capital left over to solve the next problem. So, yeah, probably decreasing prices is an interesting metric. Prizes are so powerful because that was one of the genius starting points of the Austrian economic tradition by Karl Menger, is that the value is not in the good itself. The value is in the minds and hearts of individuals. This was a fallacy that goes back to the ancient Greeks, continued through with Adam Smith and then later very much made deadly by Karl Marx. That value is in the thing itself. It's what they all believed in. And if you really believe in that and you think it logically through, then communism is the only logical way. But the problem is that value is not in the goods. Value is in your heart. You value something because it helps you and you value the same thing, different depending on the circumstances. If you're in the desert and you're starving for water and you haven't drunken for the whole day and someone offers you a tiny cup of water, I'll

[Max Hillebrand]

give you a Bitcoin for it.

[Konrad Graff]

Take whatever you want, right? The little bit of water will have unmeasurable amount of value. Well, if you're sitting at the fresh spring river and someone comes with a plastic bottle of water, like, no, thank you, I have a fresh spring water here. I don't value this water at all. So the same thing for the same person at different scenarios has immensely different values. And that. So that. But the thing is, we can't really put a number on value. Value is subjective and value is ordinal. Meaning. I can say that I prefer steak over a sandwich, and I'm not a big fan of bread, so I prefer just the meat. But I can't really say that I like steak five times more than sandwich.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah, you can't even say that you like steak every time more than sandwich.

[Konrad Graff]

Exactly. Right. And. And so then the question is, what is the value of things? Like, that's a useful thing to know in order to allocate our resources, right? Because you could build your house out of pure gold. Like, that's an option. Right.

[Max Hillebrand]

Or you good for me.

[Konrad Graff]

Or you could build it out of wood, you know, so, like, what should you choose? And the thing is, again, like, costs of things versus the value that we get out of them.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

If we build stuff that costs way more than what we get out of, then we're not profitable, we're making a loss, and we'll just get poorer. So if we would all build our houses out of insanely valuable things like gold, then we would get poorer and poorer and poorer. So we need to find a way that we can make the decision of, should I use gold or should I use wood? And the price is what helps us make this decision. The price puts an actual number on the value of things. It's not an exact representation of the value, but it is. Like, at what price did two people voluntarily agree to exchange the good with each other? And that's why prices are so fundamentally important, because it helps us to allocate our resources efficiently so that instead of destroying stuff, we create more stuff over time, which makes us richer and solves more problems in the long run. And that's fundamentally why socialism and communism doesn't work. Because what socialism is, is the abolition of private property. You are no longer allowed to own resources. The collective owns the resources, whatever that means, by the way. But the problem, if you don't have ownership, then you cannot trade, because trading means to exchange ownership. And with a trade, we get a price. And so if you don't own things, you cannot trade things. You don't have a price, then you don't know how to allocate resources. You don't have a number to put on the value of things. And that's why every time socialism was tried, people starved to death because we've destroyed all the food. Literally. It's a dire, dire situation. And that's why today's world is a little bit messed up. Because we're living in socialism. Yeah. I mean, we're in Oslo, especially in Oslo. But that means we simply don't know the value of things anymore. And that means that we're tricked into spending more than we otherwise would have and in consuming more than we otherwise would have and in not building the things that we actually need. And so we just get poorer over time and more depressed over time.

[Max Hillebrand]

Why does putting the value in a thing lead to communism?

[Konrad Graff]

Because let's say I have the steak and you have the sandwich, right? And the value would be like objective in the thing. Let's say the steak is worth seven and the sandwich is worth five. Then if we trade, you win while I lose.

[Max Hillebrand]

Whereas in the other scenario we both win because that's just what we want.

[Konrad Graff]

Exactly.

[Max Hillebrand]

But why does that lead to communism?

[Konrad Graff]

Because then if one person always loses in a trade, then we shouldn't trades. I see, right. It's a bad thing to trade if you know that one guy is winning over the other. Yeah. That's why theft is bad. Right. For the exact same argument. One guy wins, the other guy loses. We shouldn't do that. And so if value is in the thing, the logical conclusion is you should not trade. You should not even own anything.

[Max Hillebrand]

Then I like so much that I don't want. And you'll eat the steak you don't want and we'll pretend to be happy.

[Konrad Graff]

Exactly, yes.

[Max Hillebrand]

So does it surprise you that we're seeing quite a big rise in socialism and outright communism? The Communist parties in the UK are definitely gaining traction. The outright Communist Party that are like. Does that surprise you? Because when I look at that, I think most of these people are naively seeing the problems in the world that we've talked about this entire show and then just picking the wrong solution. Again, I think because feelings are way over indexed in all of this stuff. But does that make sense that that's growing?

[Konrad Graff]

Absolutely. Again, Ludwig von Mises wrote a fantastic book on this called the Middle of the Road Leads to Socialism. And socialism being the abolition of private property, which is an instantiation of communism. So the problem is if we start introducing price controls just on milk, milk should be like. The farmers should get a decent price for their milk. So we're putting a minimum price on milk, which means that people are no longer able to. To buy the milk because they are not. Or no, let's do the other way. Let's say a maximum price on something. Let's stick with the maximum price on houses. So now we have a maximum price. Entrepreneurs can no longer charge more, which means they will produce less because they cannot produce the thing profitably. And now people lack houses. And so the government is like, hey, like we got to produce more houses. But the producers will say, hey, well I cannot produce it because my costs are too high. And so now there are two solutions to it. Either we remove the maximum price on houses, which, you know, sounds bad, so let's increase a. Let's decrease the maximum price for, for steel. And now steel is cheaper because we forced them to sell it cheaper. And so now we can build houses again while being profitable because the costs of building have decreased. But now the steel producers are like, well, okay, but now I'm no longer profitable. And we again have the same choice. Do we remove the price intervention or do we double down on it? And now the fuel prices will have a maximum thing, right? And so it keeps trickling down until we have maximum prices put everywhere. And that's again, just a maximum price is the abolition of private property. If you are no longer allowed to trade your goods for the price that both parties agree on, it's no longer yours, it's the government's and you have to ask for permission to trade it later. And that ultimately leads to more and more socialism. And then on the other hand, we have inflation, the same thing. We can increase our money supply to pay the subsidies to those producers so that they have extra income. But that means that we've increased the money supply, which means prices will keep going up. And so more and more people will be poor. And so we need to give them more subsidies. And what are we going to do? We're going to print more money until we have an economic crisis. And what's the solution to an economic crisis? It's obviously more money printing. And that just keeps going and going and going. And that's why the middle of the road leads to socialism. Unless we put a hard stop on theft, and then hopefully very quickly, we will actually become profitable again as a society.

[Max Hillebrand]

How do you think you change the mind of these people who think that entrepreneurs and CEOs and billionaires are evil into thinking no, these are the people that are solving problems for humanity and they should be paid whatever the Market demands.

[Konrad Graff]

Well, books and ideas are one answer. If you pick up For a New Liberty, for example, by Murray Rothbard, it's a very good intro to what freedom and entrepreneurship actually is. It's hard to disagree with that book. It's really easy to read. But much more prevalent is experiential knowledge. Start a business.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah. I mean, there's a reason that growth in the communist part in the UK

[Konrad Graff]

is out of universities, because these people haven't worked yet. Right. And that's in part of what really started my love for the economy and for entrepreneurism was to work myself. Like, I got my first job when I was nine. I'm a big fan of child labor, by the way. I think child labor would absolutely solve the communist problem. Absolutely. Because children will realize the value of working. It's a beautiful thing to help others.

[Max Hillebrand]

Dude, I've got a two year old and obviously this isn't like working, but

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

she wants to help.

[Max Hillebrand]

Like, like there's a desire to join in.

[Konrad Graff]

This is absolutely working. Like cleaning the stairs in the house, you know, vacuuming the floor.

[Max Hillebrand]

She wants to cook, she wants to put things in the bin. She wants to like, she, she wants to join in and do those things. It's innate.

[Konrad Graff]

And encourage her to do that.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

And to keep going and to solve ever larger and more complicated problem.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

And to really, really appreciate that.

[Max Hillebrand]

Like, she hates the vacuum cleaner though. That one's way too loud.

[Konrad Graff]

Well, and that's the good thing about division of labor. You know, she might not have to do the things that she doesn't like to do, but she has to do something.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

She can't just sit on the couch doing nothing. So like trade, you know, like you will clean the floor and she can do the dishes.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah. It's really strange though, seeing this like growth in communism. And I do think it's diagnosing the problem, misdiagnosing the solution. And ideas like this, they're just right. Like they are right, but they don't hit the feels. And I saw an interesting chart the other day that was like, it was one. One line going up slowly with like four or five decision points. One line going down slowly with four or five decision points. And the one going up was like tough but correct decision. The one going down was felt good. And I feel like that's just exactly what's happening in society. Like we're on that downward trajectory.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah. And I think that's just a narrative mismatch.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

Because like, you know, the truth is actually a good thing. And like obviously beneficial for everyone. And I think that's where just the mind control of government education comes in.

[Max Hillebrand]

But that like psyop is crazy. Like people think it's bad to make profit.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah.

[Max Hillebrand]

And I, I don't understand what has broken their brain.

[Konrad Graff]

Bad economic theory ultimately I think like with a wrong starting assumptions like, you know, value is in the things itself. The collective is more important than the individual. Like these types of starting points, if you agree with them and you take the natural conclusion leads exactly to these problems. So it's a, it's, I think it's a methodological mistake. And this was, you know, in Vienna they had centuries, like decades of debates on the proper methodology of things and we no longer really do that.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

Like you don't get taught methodology in university anymore. You just get the Keynesian nonsense. Right.

[Max Hillebrand]

I mean you don't even get that

[Konrad Graff]

a lot of places.

[Max Hillebrand]

Like I mean maybe at university, but it's like going through the schooling system in the uk we never learn anything about money. Yeah. Like I don't understand how just running a household budget isn't like you learn about mitochondria but you don't learn about how to like run a budget. Like it's insane.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah, it is.

[Max Hillebrand]

Like that is so much more specialized and something that not everyone will have to do and you just never learn about like how you should think about finances.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah.

[Max Hillebrand]

It's crazy.

[Konrad Graff]

Maybe the actual outcome is the intended outcome. Maybe people not really understanding how to not be poor is exactly what they wanted. And obedient soldiers who depend on the state for their survival who will do anything that the state wants just to get fed. Yeah. Because like if you're starving, if your daughter is starving and like you will kill for her.

[Max Hillebrand]

Right.

[Konrad Graff]

If, if you're well off and, and she's fine, you probably won't kill. Yeah. And they got really good at tricking us into killing. And that's sad.

[Max Hillebrand]

One of the things I worry about in this is The TikTok brain rot 7 second attention span thing is that if someone hears you say abolish minimum wage child labor is good, they're not going to do the work to understand what the actual argument is. Because if they heard the argument, I think it's very hard to disagree with. I think that's also driving this in the wrong direction that people instead, if they hear abolish all minimum wage versus we'll pay you more. Like that's all they need to hear. There's no reason to go deeper for a lot of people. And I don't know how we get out of that.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah, that's, that's a really good point. And you know, like the, the, the books that really walk you through these conclusions are like this, this thing like

[Max Hillebrand]

my book is, but this. And like, it's like a textbook, right? Yeah, like, because, because these are deep

[Konrad Graff]

topics, but like Man Economy and state is like 1500 pages. You know, this is 500. This is relatively short. No, it's like the real step by step reasoning just takes time. And to really go through all of the different methods and ways of thinking of the problem to come to an actual conclusion. It's the unseen. It's the extra logical steps that need to be taken. And then it's just a question of. I think you're in my job of packaging this up better, making better memes. This is memetic warfare ultimately. And we need to get really, really good at like clipping those seven seconds and condensing this information into a digestible form.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

And that has always been, you know, the struggle for ideas. And the propaganda has been really good. There are countless psychology geniuses who have thought really long and hard on how, who thought really long and hard on how to proliferate the positive ideas of the state. That's what propaganda is about. Right. Goebbels was a genius, an absolute genius who applied his genius for really bad things. And we have to apply our genius for the better things.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah. This might be impossible, but has anyone ever tried to almost run two simulations of like ever increasing minimum wages versus abolishing minimum wages and seeing what the average wage would be at the end of it?

[Konrad Graff]

I'm sure they have. I would probably disagree with the methodology of it because humans are not rocks. Right. We can make science experiments with rocks because rocks don't act, they just react. Right. You let them fall, they go down. They always have the same acceleration when they go down. That's gravity. And we can make replicable experiments for this. The historicism school in early Vienna, late 19th century, was thinking that we can apply the same methodology to analyzing economics. We can make a study of 100 people and we will see how they behave, and then we can draw conclusions and predict the futures with that. We've tried that now for a long time. Basically, you're better off flipping a coin than relying on an economist's prediction. They're just not accurate. And that's why I value the praxeological method, because we don't have to run these experiments, we just have to find Good starting points and deduce logically from there and see how far we can get. And we can get really, really, really far. And the interesting thing is that we can extend this. So to get back to kind of the axioms that I mentioned earlier, with the action axiom by Ludwig van Mises, we can deduce a bunch of economic thoughts. We can deduce a whole bunch of exchange theory, monetary theory, interest rate theory. All of this we can deduce just from human action ultimately. But what Mises was very careful about is that we cannot make normative claims. We cannot say that a minimum wage is bad and we should not do it. We can just say that it leads to unemployment. And then later in, like, the 1980s, Hans Herman Hoppe introduced a second axiom to the canon, which is the axiom of argumentation from which we can deduce moral claims. So he has found, and I think it's a marvelous achievement, a solution to the. You cannot derive an ought from an is problem. Like, we cannot have a logical claim on what is good and what is bad. I think he has clearly shown that we can. You cannot deny that you own yourself in an argument ultimately, like, now that we're speaking, I cannot claim that I control your thoughts and still presume that we're actually arguing and trying to discover the truth. Because if I control both my brain and your brain, I'm just talking to myself. That's not really an argument. Right. We're just agreeing with myself then. So, like, I have to presuppose that you are a sovereign being with your own mind, your own thoughts, and your own capability of reason and discovering truth. So with this additional assumption, we can deduce what you ought to do and what you ought not to do. And that's why I'm so fervent on theft is bad. It's not just economically stupid. It doesn't only make us less rich, it makes us poorer all the time. But also it's just a bad thing to do. Because I could not actually claim that theft is a good thing without proving that I own myself and therefore

[Max Hillebrand]

I

[Konrad Graff]

don't appreciate theft of my body, otherwise I wouldn't have made the point. So we can, with the right methodology applied correctly, we can really come to much better conclusions than with wrong methodology, like trying to do science experiments with humans. You know, that whole idea of overpopulation is bad and we'll just run out of resources comes from exactly this thing, right? Of we can make an experiment in like a petri dish and we have like a certain amount of resources, sugars, and then we add a fungus into it and eventually the fungus will spread and all the resources are gone and then the fungus dies. So therefore we should kill humans to decrease the population so that we will survive longer. Like, I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but countless people think like this, right?

[Max Hillebrand]

Crazy.

[Konrad Graff]

And it's crazy, right? But what this experiment misses is, is that we humans can create more sugar, right? If we run out of stuff, we can just produce more of it because we are value making machines, right? And we can produce things with our hands and our minds. And so having the wrong methodology leads to really, really dangerous conclusions.

[Max Hillebrand]

Fuck, man. I feel like we should do every six months we need to do like. You can give me an Austrian economic swim.

[Konrad Graff]

Deep dive.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah. This has been awesome. I only got this book two days ago from you, so I've not read it yet. But this is going to be my, my deep reading on the way home. But thank you so much, man, this has been awesome.

[Konrad Graff]

No, I really appreciate it.

[Max Hillebrand]

Is there anything that we've not talked about that you want to today? We'll definitely do this again though.

[Konrad Graff]

Yeah, we have to. One I guess one aspect that's also at the very core of the book is that ownership of information is a horrible idea. It's one of those root problems that humanity has is that we think we can own ideas and ownership means to be able to stop other people from using it.

[Max Hillebrand]

It's like IP rules.

[Konrad Graff]

It's the IP rules, exactly. This is so stupid. Like tremendously stupid on many levels. God gave us ideas that are non scarce. The words that I'm speaking now, I can give them to you. I can give them to a million people in the audience. Hopefully. Let's see, let's see.

[Max Hillebrand]

It might be a bit over.

[Konrad Graff]

And the beautiful thing is I still have them. Yeah, right. I didn't have to sacrifice the sharing of information. So there is no potential conflict over who can control and own the ideas. We can all have them. And we need ideas to produce things. Again, if you're on a lonely island with all the raw materials that you have, but you don't know how to use a screwdriver, then you can't build anything, right? Ideas are an essential means of production. We need it in order to produce anything, right? We need it to act, we need to think and to have these ideas, right? So the beautiful thing of ideas is that we can all use them at the same time. Once one person figures out a way of doing something, we can all Use it. And that one guy doesn't lose anything, which is incredible. It's a gift. And the idea of, I wrote this book, these patterns of words, this collection of words are mine, and if you put them on your piece of paper, I will hit you and take your book away. Because it's my ideas. That's so stupid. Because not only does it introduce a conflict where none existed, right? We didn't have the conflict over ideas, but now all of a sudden we have. So we've taken this abundance and put it back into the bucket of scarcity. When we all want to go past scarcity, right? We would like to have as many things that all of us could have whatever we want so that we no longer suffer. That would be a utopia. That would be paradise, right? And we have that paradise with ideas. But if we try to put it back into the box of ownership and scarcity, we're like back into the hellfire, ultimately. And the second aspect is not only are we reducing the beautiful abundance of ideas, also I would actually be stealing your physical paper because you worked hard to produce this paper and it is the scarce resource. Either you have the book or the paper, or I have the paper. We can't both have this particular edition of the book at the same time. That's a conflict. That's where ownership and property rights is the solution to a problem. The problem is, who will be able to walk out with this book today? Is it you or is it me?

[Max Hillebrand]

It's mine, man.

[Konrad Graff]

Right. Because, like, I. Well, Amazon printed it, right? I paid Amazon to print it, so it was my book, but then I gifted it to you, and now it's no longer mine, it's yours, right? So we have a clear chain of ownership. That solves the conflict of who gets to walk out of it. It's you. And I have to agree with that, based on me arguing about it in the first place. So me trying to steal the book, if you started to print it on your own, is me actually taking away your property and claiming that you stole my ideas, which I still have. I still have the PDF of the book.

[Max Hillebrand]

Yeah.

[Konrad Graff]

So scarcity is at the root of property, and we needed scarcity in cyberspace for money. That's why bitcoin is such a massive achievement. We've introduced scarcity in cyberspace without a trusted third party. It's never existed before bitcoin, and we've achieved that. And now we have money in cyberspace, and that's beautiful. But for most things in cyberspace, scarcity is a really, really bad idea. So this is why this book is published on the public domain. Like the PDF, the markdown files, the print editions, the epub files. All of this is available for free on my website towards liberty.com pop you can get it for free, like, because it doesn't cost me anything to give it to everyone who's listening, anyone who wants it. And also, if you want to print it, please do. Like, printing is expensive

[Max Hillebrand]

doing you a favor.

[Konrad Graff]

Exactly. Yeah. Like, I want these ideas to. To flourish and, and to be understood by people. So if people want to print it, if people want to sell it, do it and, like, keep the money.

[Max Hillebrand]

That's fucking awesome. I love that. I mean, I think everyone should read this book. I know I'm going to learn a lot from it. It's funny because, like, when, when you. Like, I agree with you wholeheartedly and like the idea of what you're saying, but I know that, like, I also would want people to support you in what you've done with this and buy it as well. Download it free and buy it.

[Konrad Graff]

Like, I'd appreciate it too. Right. But ultimately, like, I have no claim of stealing your money if you print this book and sell it. Yeah, right. It would be kind of a nice move, you know, to give some of that to me. Yeah, but you don't have to. And honestly, I don't even expect it. Like, if, if people go through the effort and it's a lot of effort to, like, print the book, bring it to market, tell people about it, manage all the customer relations, that's a. That's a big job, and people should get paid for it. These ideas aren't mine. Like, I may have been the one to, you know, put them in exactly this pattern, but there's nothing new under the sun. All of that I've learned in here comes from.

[Max Hillebrand]

Derived from other people.

[Konrad Graff]

There's like 500 footnotes in this book. You know, like, there is an insane amount of fantastic thinkers who've gone so deep into these problems, and I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. Like, I wouldn't be here without reading tons of books that were available for free on mises.org. right. So this is just my way of giving back to all the free information that I could accumulate and, you know, put a little spin on. On it from my point of view. But ultimately this, this book is. Is a free book and get it for free, get it in print, do what you want with it. Make a movie. Love a movie.

[Max Hillebrand]

It might be a hard one. To find to make a movie. Dude, I love you. Thank you for doing this, man. It's really, really cool. And I'm serious. We should do this every. Every few months. And you can be my Austrian economist teacher.

[Konrad Graff]

Let's do it.

[Max Hillebrand]

All right. Thank you, man.

[Konrad Graff]

This is cool. Thanks, Danny.