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- [00:01]
Brian Koppelman
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Cody Rhodes
Like when a client cancels their order
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Brian Koppelman
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Cody Rhodes
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Brian Koppelman
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Cody Rhodes
So go ahead, surprise yourself.
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Brian Koppelman
Get a quote in as little as 8 minutes@progressive commercial.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates and third party insurers. Coverage is not available in all states or for all vehicles and coverage selections.
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Cody Rhodes
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Ever wonder who's out there making the world go round? It's truckers. Who unites baristas with coffee beans? Truckers. Who unites dogs with their favorite chew toy? Truckers. That's why Progressive offers truckers even more protection with cargo plus coverage to keep truckers moving right along. Quote Truck insurance today in as little as 8 minutes at progressive commercial.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Coverage subject to policy terms, limits and conditions not yet available in California, New York and Virginia.
- [01:22]
Brian Koppelman
Support for this podcast comes from Progressive, America's number one motorcycle insurer.
- [01:27]
Cody Rhodes
Did you know? Writers who switch and save with Progressive
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Brian Koppelman
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Cody Rhodes
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Brian Koppelman
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Cody Rhodes
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Brian Koppelman
Potential saving foreign.
- [01:59]
Cody Rhodes
Welcome to what do you want to talk about A fanatics and WWE original production Very special day today because we are on hallowed ground. We are at the world's most famous arena, a very special place for all of entertainment. Particularly of course, sports entertainment, pro wrestling. And I have an incredibly unique and special special guest who never just randomly says yes to podcast. In fact, I don't think he's done one in many years. This again is a very special lifelong Knicks fan, creator of the hit series Billions, and a wrestling fan which I'm about to find all about. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome. What do you want to talk about? Brian Koppelman.
- [02:43]
Brian Koppelman
I'm thrilled to be here, man. This is great. Can't. I just can't wait. I've been thinking about it all week.
- [02:48]
Cody Rhodes
This I'll Give people a little, you know, pull the curtain back a bit. This happened uniquely, whereas there's some connective tissue between myself and you, and that being Mr. Paul Heyman.
- [03:03]
Brian Koppelman
I love Paul.
- [03:04]
Cody Rhodes
Mr. Paul Heyman. And I see you are drinking like myself. Our friends at Wheatley American Vodka. This is a American mule. Cheers to you, Brian.
- [03:13]
Brian Koppelman
Cheers, man. I hear you drinking it on the podcast now. I'm excited to have one. Awesome.
- [03:20]
Cody Rhodes
We are here. We're at Madison Square Garden. This is a arena you are very familiar with. Walk me through. What's the first memory for you, this arena and pro wrestling?
- [03:34]
Brian Koppelman
Well, you know, you bring up the arena and you'll understand the second you ask, what's your first memory?
- [03:40]
Cody Rhodes
It's.
- [03:40]
Brian Koppelman
It's not a wrestling memory. It's being four years old and my pop bringing me to the Garden to see the Knicks. And that's how the connection to the Garden first happened. And. But it. It does have to do with showmanship and a lot of wrestling stuff, because Earl, the Pearl Monroe, who used to play for the Baltimore Bullets before he came to the Knicks, there was a guy who would follow him around who was like a manager, like his Paul guy called Dancing Harry. Okay. And Dancing Harry would follow this guy around, and he was dressed in robes, and he would put a hex on the other team. He was like the grand Wizard.
- [04:10]
Cody Rhodes
Oh, my God.
- [04:11]
Brian Koppelman
Or something like that. But he was doing it in basketball because.
- [04:14]
Cody Rhodes
Cursing people.
- [04:14]
Brian Koppelman
Basket. Oh, yeah.
- [04:15]
Cody Rhodes
He would put curses on people like Dan Housing today.
- [04:17]
Brian Koppelman
And it was. Yeah, it was the. There was a lot of Carney in all pro sports right back then. These guys were barnstorming only 20 years before that. So my. The Garden's a hallowed place for me, but I've been a wrestling fan since I was probably 6 years old or 7 years old. And back then, before the sports entertainment era, if you were under 13 or 13 and under, you couldn't get in. And we grew up. I grew up an hour and 20 minutes away from the garden, so 13
- [04:51]
Cody Rhodes
and under for these shows. You couldn't get in.
- [04:53]
Brian Koppelman
You couldn't get in to see wrestling. And my 13th birthday, I convinced my pop to take me and my friends to. To see Bruno wrestle here, and we got turned away at the door, so. And it was, I got to say, maybe top 10 disappointments of my life.
- [05:09]
Cody Rhodes
Sure, sure.
- [05:10]
Brian Koppelman
Coming all the way here. I had posters of wrestlers covered my. Like, the rec room in our, like, really wasn't even a rec room. It's just a basement. And I was such a Fan. And I got turned away. And it was great because you got to take your bruises. I mean. You know what I mean? You got to lose before you get a chance to win. So to do this today, to be sitting here with you, means a lot.
- [05:30]
Cody Rhodes
I'm curious. You're 13. Your birthday. You get turned away at the Garden. I got to ask. How did we turn that around? How did. What did you do? What was the make as. Especially as your. Your. You said your dad took you.
- [05:43]
Brian Koppelman
It was my dad, me and three friends.
- [05:45]
Cody Rhodes
Okay. So dad, did he have to kick into overdrive? Was it. We threw our hands up. What happened?
- [05:50]
Brian Koppelman
I do know he. A bribe was attempted.
- [05:53]
Cody Rhodes
Oh, I love that.
- [05:54]
Brian Koppelman
And the bribe didn't. Which shocking thing was the bribe didn't work. And which I can't understand. And I'll say, like your dad. Mine. He couldn't necessarily. He wasn't a cheap man. You know what I mean? He would have done anything. He tried. And I'm sure he tried to like, actually slide the guy five twenties or something. And we were just turned away scornfully. Beni Hana is the answer.
- [06:18]
Cody Rhodes
Answer. Okay. Benihana is a good. I'm not mad at that. Shout out to Benny Hana.
- [06:23]
Brian Koppelman
364 days a year. Beni Hana would have been great.
- [06:26]
Cody Rhodes
But it was that day.
- [06:27]
Brian Koppelman
But that day, it sucked. Come on.
- [06:28]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah. When they. When they did the fire and everything, it's not the same as seeing Bruno.
- [06:32]
Brian Koppelman
You want to see Bruno against Ivan Koloff and instead you're staring at some shrimp with sesame on. It's not really. I mean, it doesn't really hold a candle. Shirley Temple is not the same thing as trying to steal a sip off of someone's beer at the Garden. When you're watching Bruiser Brody body slam somebody.
- [06:47]
Cody Rhodes
The. I'm so. It has to make you, though, when you think of your. Your dad doing that, there's. I think of a story. For example, my big Christmas growing up. I wanted a Nintendo 64. Okay. Nintendo 64 was the turboman that year. It was impossible to get. I told my mom, I want a Nintendo 64. I was at the age where she was very honest with me. I. I don't think we can do that. I don't. I might have said some things that made it seem like, hey, there's magic here. There's gotta be there. I want a Nintendo 64. Really put her in a position. Yeah.
- [07:23]
Brian Koppelman
That's rough.
- [07:23]
Cody Rhodes
Difficult. Christmas morning, I opened up a Nintendo 64, took it upstairs. I put Mario in And it just stopped on the screen where it just says, it's a me. And it stopped there and it froze. And I started it over. It's a me. And I realized my mom, in her attempt to get this, had bought a console locked, region specific, Japanese Nintendo 64. But I went downstairs and told her it's the greatest gift I've ever got. Because she tried, you know, like so hard. So I'm dad taking you to the Garden. It gets me though.
- [08:11]
Brian Koppelman
You're a lifelong baby face.
- [08:14]
Cody Rhodes
Oh, no.
- [08:15]
Brian Koppelman
I mean, that is incredible, right? That is the most Cody Rhodes story. It's disgusting.
- [08:19]
Cody Rhodes
Almost the side part of that story, the non baby face part, was Dusty then went to where she bought it and told me to wait in the car.
- [08:27]
Brian Koppelman
I love it.
- [08:28]
Cody Rhodes
And I watched through the glass and there was a lot of this. He came out with a Nintendo 64 box and every game that came out. And he just never told me what was said, what took place and whatever he did. But I ended up with it. But I was, I couldn't after that. I was like, ah, yeah, I. That's. You know, the parents, they try so hard, but again, you're 13. Benihana happens. When did you get your first.
- [08:54]
Brian Koppelman
I love that your dad did that because what did you. I'll say, like, I did see my father pull off that kind of move a lot. Like, yeah, I was. That's why it was shocking. It didn't work at the, at the Garden. Yeah, like, not many people would actually then go back there and convince someone to give you the, you know, the, the Nintendo 64 that you didn't even pay for. Because obviously she got a deal on it. What did it make you for real? Like, how did that land with you going forward? Meaning about resourcefulness, about, like, did you consider, oh, he's just a magical person who could do that?
- [09:28]
Cody Rhodes
I just, I think as a parent, these are tough questions to answer. But I think as a parent, what I learned from him was the ultimate important thing in terms of his legacy was his children. And even at a young age, I got the sense that at a young age, I got the sense that my dad had been beat up, chewed up, spit out, shined back up, chewed up, spit back by the wrestling business.
- [09:59]
Brian Koppelman
Right.
- [09:59]
Cody Rhodes
I got that sense because when I'm young, he's not wrestling on top. I know he's executive producer. Then he's not. He's booker. Then he's not. He's friends with everybody. Then he's not. We're backstage. Then the next thing you know, we're not allowed. I was so. I got the sense he'd really been through it, and with moves like that, it was just. He set a standard. He set a standard as a dad that is going to be incredibly hard to follow.
- [10:23]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. I mean, it's amazing the way that you got that version of him that was focused and attentive in that way.
- [10:30]
Cody Rhodes
Well, the thing is, he wasn't with the first two kids. I know Kristen and Dustin, they. Our relationship's so uniquely different because he was gone. He was Road Warrior. He was. I wanted to be NWA champ. He want all those things, and that's the life he lived. And then I think when he got to me, he had one shot, you know, like Eminem style. One shot, one opportunity. He got to me and knew, like, I just had to do everything right for him. And again, he extremely babied me, and he definitely. He got that with me. But it's so funny because some of the guys in this room actually were part of this. His last interview, he did. We didn't know he was gonna pass away three days later. His last interview, he did. He. They asked him. They go, what do you want? You know, like, to be remembered as. And just said, a good father. I mean, that's it, right?
- [11:20]
Brian Koppelman
Better for you to have. And this is obviously not anywhere near. I just want to say one thing about. About your pop.
- [11:26]
Cody Rhodes
You've turned this interview on me now.
- [11:29]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah, that's. But I love having having you on the mic. It's great. I'll talk, so you can ask me anything you want. But. But one more thing I do want to say about you and your pop, which is I came up in the magazine era, the wrestling magazine era, you know, And I would read these magazines from when I was, like, 6, 7, 8 years old. I was fascinated by the magazines. I would make my mom take me, and there were two different stores or three that might have them, and I had to get all of them, and I wouldn't subscribe. I loved the ritual. They wouldn't let me. But I also loved going to the store and getting those magazines and then reading them. The thing is the way those writers made up their stories and built up those wrestlers. And so someday I really want to make a documentary about this, but then I would go visit a family member somewhere that. Because this is before. For people who are listening and don't know, you know, wrestling wasn't national, so NWA wrestlers wrestled in a certain territory, and AWA wrestlers wrestled in certain territory. But inevitably, because of how these people were built up. When you saw them, you were slightly disappointed almost all the time. Of course, you know, when you saw Abdullah the Butcher on the COVID of a magazine, bleeding, you know, he seemed like the scariest guy in the world. And when you saw him, it was a little goofy.
- [12:39]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [12:40]
Brian Koppelman
Your father was the only one who not only lived up to it, but transcended it. I would see your dad and I would watch him on the stick because There was no YouTube, there was no Internet. You had to go and put the ears on a television and get it on UHF to try to find a Dusty Rhodes match. And he was everything that you hoped he'd be when you would read about him in the magazines. And Bruno will always be, as a kid growing up here, you know, my favorite wrestler, but right behind him, always was Dusty because he was even better than how they wrote about him, you know, that's why, to me, when he came here and they didn't put the belt on him, I always thought it was a crying shame.
- [13:22]
Cody Rhodes
Speaking of, where's the belt? Let's fly her in. I think that's so crazy that, you know, that story of him not winning the belt in 19, you know, 78 with superstar and everything. And it's this one. It's this WWE Championship. And then the beauty of being able to come in and. And do it myself, you gotta. You gotta get a hold of it.
- [13:40]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, yeah.
- [13:41]
Cody Rhodes
That's amazing. You gotta get a hold of it.
- [13:42]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. That's great, man. This is.
- [13:45]
Cody Rhodes
And your. Your lineage in terms of you being a Bruno guy.
- [13:48]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. No, this is unbelievable.
- [13:49]
Cody Rhodes
His DNA is in that. In a sense, the wwe, the www. Of Championship, what it would become.
- [13:55]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. Buddy Rogers. T to Bruno.
- [13:58]
Cody Rhodes
That's right.
- [13:58]
Brian Koppelman
Ivan Coloff.
- [13:59]
Cody Rhodes
The original nature. Oh, you know, the full.
- [14:01]
Brian Koppelman
I could give you the whole run.
- [14:02]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [14:03]
Brian Koppelman
I could give you the run up to a certain point.
- [14:04]
Cody Rhodes
So where. Ivan Koloff.
- [14:05]
Brian Koppelman
Who's next after Ivan Koloff? Pedro Morales. Right.
- [14:08]
Cody Rhodes
That's right.
- [14:09]
Brian Koppelman
After Pedro, I think Stan Stasiak for seven days or something like that.
- [14:14]
Cody Rhodes
I know. And as Stasiak. Thank you, sir. Always got the rap of being the
- [14:17]
Brian Koppelman
transition because he got you back to. He gets you back to Bruno.
- [14:20]
Cody Rhodes
Yes, he got you back.
- [14:21]
Brian Koppelman
And then Bruno. To Superstar Billy Graham with his foot on the rope, which. Which killed me on the COVID of the magazines. And. And then to Bob Backlin and then the Sheik. Right. I think that's the run.
- [14:31]
Cody Rhodes
So, two questions because. And I will. Will fact check. Did you just do it in Real time. That is the run, too.
- [14:39]
Brian Koppelman
Did I get the run right? See, it's not as good as a
- [14:41]
Cody Rhodes
round of applause for getting the run right. Oh, I was just gonna. That was. That run was gonna be right no matter what.
- [14:48]
Brian Koppelman
No, no, totally. We would have fixed it, but the thing is, it's really easy to do that in the Internet era. That's the thing. The Internet's taken away being, you know, being able to name all the bass players in heavy metal bands from the new wave of British heavy metal. No one cares. You could just look it up. But I have had that WWE thing memorized my whole, whole life.
- [15:05]
Cody Rhodes
That's a very special run you mentioned. I want to ask you two questions. Just following up on what you said. You said magazines. This is the Bill Apter era of. Of our industry. What? Shout out to Bill. He's a wild one. But what. What magazine was your main magazine? Pwi.
- [15:21]
Brian Koppelman
I like the Wrestler.
- [15:22]
Cody Rhodes
Wrestler? Yeah.
- [15:23]
Brian Koppelman
Pro Wrestling Illustrated, the. The Wrestler and Inside Wrestling. Those three were all, you know, you had to get.
- [15:30]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [15:31]
Brian Koppelman
You know, it got a little weird when the apartment house wrestling started becoming a big part in it.
- [15:35]
Cody Rhodes
It was a big part of the magazines. Yeah.
- [15:37]
Brian Koppelman
And for those who don't know what
- [15:39]
Cody Rhodes
that is, we do have the Internet to look it up.
- [15:41]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah.
- [15:41]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [15:42]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, yeah. They're like sites dedicated to that. And it's funny because, like, at certain age, I definitely didn't want that. And then in another age, it was like, well, this is okay, you. You know. Yeah, sure, sure. But, yeah, and I really loved the writing. It's funny because even as a kid, and I think it's one of the great things about the kayfabe era is there was no, you know, no one understood that there was something as someone who was smartened up. Right. Or someone who was a mark. These weren't terms really that kids watching wrestling knew, but if you were, like, really interested in this stuff and you'd read these magazines and then you'd watch the shows, you would start to put together that this isn't exactly what you're, you know, even at a young age. And part of the fun of it was thinking about.
- [16:29]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [16:30]
Brian Koppelman
All of that stuff. You know, I. I mean, for me, the. What you guys have brought it back to now has reintroduced all the best elements of that, folded into this sports entertainment era.
- [16:42]
Cody Rhodes
Amazing.
- [16:43]
Brian Koppelman
Well, look at the problem. You know, the. The promo that Heymon did on you when he talked about dusty going into WrestleMania 39. Yeah.
- [16:52]
Cody Rhodes
Yes. Okay. Yeah.
- [16:54]
Brian Koppelman
Was, I think, in the modern era, the Best, the best. Most emotional and incredible moment because he brought, he used so much real information.
- [17:06]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [17:07]
Brian Koppelman
That very legacy you were just talking about. His genuine fondness for you. His, his place in your life.
- [17:13]
Cody Rhodes
Sure.
- [17:14]
Brian Koppelman
All the stuff the audience brings in. And as a professional storyteller watching it, I could watch it both like as someone who crafts stories and respect it. But I'd be lying if I didn't say I wasn't emotionally moved by it. It worked. It worked on me and I know if it worked on me, it worked on everybody. And it's why when you didn't win it was it guaranteed another year of engagement. You know, and we were my partner, the guy I make every. Everything with. We were deep in making the show billions at the time. And I wasn't always watching wrestling. You know, you go, if you're a lifelong fan, there are periods of time you're watching closely. There are periods of time you're following it, but you're not watching as closely. You know what's going on. Dan Soder and I always talk about it. He's a lifelong wrestling guy. Everyone always mentions Dany who was on the show and is a great comedian and a lifelong wrestling fanatic. But two things that brought me back. First, Becky lynch brought me back to wrestling. When she really started making her run as the man. I thought it was so awesome that there was a woman doing this. And I remember getting my wife, Amy and we would watch and, and I loved watching that run and ended up becoming friends with Becky. She came on the show, we. And, and the other thing that brought me all the way back was your run. Man. Those two years I would watch all the time. I would follow it. Because the fact that your pop didn't get it.
- [18:40]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [18:41]
Brian Koppelman
And that they. It took that extra year after you left. It was great because it worked as a business story, it worked as a life story, it worked as a wrestling story. And it's what you all do so well. It's what I admire so much about what all you do.
- [18:56]
Cody Rhodes
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Brian Koppelman
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Cody Rhodes
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Brian Koppelman
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Cody Rhodes
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Cody Rhodes
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Brian Koppelman
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Cody Rhodes
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Brian Koppelman
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Cody Rhodes
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Cody Rhodes
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- [21:33]
Cody Rhodes
You mentioned Becky. I I said this. I crashed an interview of hers this morning.
- [21:37]
Brian Koppelman
Oh cool.
- [21:38]
Cody Rhodes
We were over doing just different radio for just Wrestlemania coming up and I saw her so I came and crashed it. We'll find out if she was mad about that later or not. She seemed cool, but somebody asked me to describe her. Yeah, one of the most fraudulent terms you'll hear not so much internally here, but you'll see some of the More people who cover us, they'll talk about the word organic.
- [21:58]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah.
- [21:59]
Cody Rhodes
And almost everything in wrestling is an organic. And shouldn't be, because we're writing this narrative. Shouldn't be. Or like we're writing this. The man run is probably the best example of an organic run that when. Anytime I had when I was doing my executive gig or when I'm at the Nightmare Factory, whatever it may be, when a girl ask me what she can do to be the best in the women's division, I always tell them, don't be the best in the women's division. Don't be the best in the men's division. Just be the best.
- [22:30]
Brian Koppelman
Be the best in the world.
- [22:31]
Cody Rhodes
Be the. In the case of Becky, be the man. Whatever it is. Like, be the best. Because that brings it up naturally.
- [22:37]
Brian Koppelman
That was what was so great about that run. When she Headline Mania, it was like, that woman is right now the best professional wrestler in the world. Yeah, it felt like that. It felt galvanizing. It felt like. And not for. Not for reasons that were separate. Not because the culture. She just was. Because, like you're saying, she tapped into that thing where who she was inside was who she was outside on that run. And it was an incredible thing. It was really an incredible thing to see.
- [23:09]
Cody Rhodes
I think a hard realization for me and a question I kind of have to ask myself at the end of the day. You talking about this promo, and this is me and Mr. Heyman going into WrestleMania 39 talking about my dad going to work for ECW, correct.
- [23:24]
Brian Koppelman
That I'm talking when he says that he trained Roman, but he didn't train.
- [23:27]
Cody Rhodes
Right, Right. So one of the things that. I don't know if it is a burden or if it is a. A huge advantage, a huge luxury, or if it's both a privilege and a curse. It could be both. Is my character, upon returning has been me. And when you're that close to it, I have to kind of remind myself that when we put our work up, when the cameras are on and we're out there, it's no longer really me. Right. But it is. And this information is. And I think the thing about that interview that I wanted to do was I wanted the world to know that story, and I wanted to connect to Mr. Heyman in a way that we really could never be untethered. And it's difficult because sometimes you were so complimentary of it as a promo. I remember people would talk to me about a Hall of Fame speech I did for my dad, and I don't know how to respond, because that's easy. That's an easy. That's an easy thing to connect to.
- [24:40]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, of course.
- [24:41]
Cody Rhodes
Right.
- [24:41]
Brian Koppelman
That thing, you becoming emotional, like, that's, it's, that's just.
- [24:44]
Cody Rhodes
That's just easy. And I, I, it's just, it's something at the end of the day, I have to ask myself.
- [24:53]
Brian Koppelman
But didn't you. You had to allow yourself.
- [24:55]
Cody Rhodes
Oh, yeah.
- [24:56]
Brian Koppelman
To have an open experience, meaning you had to allow yourself. Now, that's part of the craft of becoming worthy of wearing the belt. Right. Is being willing to really bleed, but, like, bleed emotionally. No, because you can't actually. There's a lot of stuff you could craft and fake all day and. Yeah, that's a moment, though, by definition, because it's not like those words were
- [25:23]
Cody Rhodes
said many times you mentioned, like, emotionally. I remember I went to LA after high school cause I thought I wanted to become an actor. I really just thought I wasn't big enough physically, even though I'm a big boy to become a pro wrestler. And Howard Fine was my coach out there. And I remember him telling me, he was saying, he's like, if you really want to know the ticket for you as young men and women who want to get into this, he was saying, you just have to be emotionally available. You have to be available. And I think one of the lessons I learned upon coming back here was that's going to be very difficult. But I want to be that every night. And if it's almost counterintuitive or if it almost juxtaposes against what they think a baby face should be, it will work because it's real, because it's authentic, and I'm allowing it to become part of this story.
- [26:22]
Brian Koppelman
It's so good that it took the extra year because it allowed that to really saturate. Even though I'm sure being inside it and even knowing there were handshakes and agreements and this was happening, you know, everyone was sure that someone was, you know, on Cena's run, that someone else was coming back to be part. Like, there could be a lot of plans that change, and it could have changed.
- [26:44]
Cody Rhodes
Oh, yeah, I am. I mean, as this room knows, I'm the king of plans change.
- [26:47]
Brian Koppelman
Right? And so. But you had to sort of hold the faith, and that meant that the audience had to hold the faith and stay with it, even though people were sure. And that's why when Taker comes into the ring, it's such a big moment, because he was in there for all of us, right?
- [27:04]
Cody Rhodes
Sure.
- [27:04]
Brian Koppelman
He was in there for everybody who loved Dusty. He was in there for everybody who was rooting for you. He was in there for everybody who wanted one good thing to happen in the world that day.
- [27:13]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [27:13]
Brian Koppelman
And so when he comes in there that, it was so amazing, because we wanted a hand to come from somewhere and, and fucking give this kid the shot.
- [27:22]
Cody Rhodes
I. I tried to. After 39, the WrestleMania happened. Sofi, L.A. i, I tell people this a lot, but I tried to look at as many people as I could.
- [27:31]
Brian Koppelman
Awesome.
- [27:32]
Cody Rhodes
And what I was trying to convey was, it's gonna be okay. And. And I think now I'm so happy that I didn't lie to him. Right. Because you said, hold the faith. Hold the faith is hard.
- [27:47]
Brian Koppelman
Yes, it is.
- [27:48]
Cody Rhodes
Hold the faith, especially in my case, gets shaken a great bit. And I just thought, I just. As the one thing. Pro wrestling, Good guy. Pro wrestling, Babyface. The one thing you can't do is lie to them. You can't lie to them.
- [28:02]
Brian Koppelman
Say more about that. What do you mean?
- [28:05]
Cody Rhodes
If I go out knowing, Right. Say I'm well aware of a finish three months from now.
- [28:11]
Brian Koppelman
Yes.
- [28:11]
Cody Rhodes
But I have to go out and tell those people I am going to beat this guy without a shadow of a doubt. I guarantee it. And I have to look them in the eye and even in that moment, if I know otherwise, still believe I'm not lying to them. Right. Like, I. Yeah. It's a. It is a perpetual case of holding the faith. It's a perpetual case of, hey, tonight gonna be your night. I'm gonna beat this guy. I'm making eye contact with you, and I got you, buddy. Or if I'm laying there in a pool of my own blood, the same look and hey, gonna be okay.
- [28:52]
Brian Koppelman
Right?
- [28:53]
Cody Rhodes
I owe it to you. It's gonna be okay.
- [28:55]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. You're gonna lead. You're gonna lead everybody out of this.
- [28:58]
Cody Rhodes
Right? Right.
- [28:59]
Brian Koppelman
Somehow.
- [28:59]
Cody Rhodes
And I think all the greats, from a wrestling psychology standpoint, we're here in the garden. All the greats had a way of doing that. It's a sales business, in a way. It's a story business. It's a sales business. But the one thing that doesn't work is bad salesmen. You won't last long.
- [29:18]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. The best heels do it in the reverse. And the people who are really great at that.
- [29:24]
Cody Rhodes
I want to ask, because you mentioned the magazines and you mentioned the bunny ears on the tv, and it's territory wrestling.
- [29:32]
Brian Koppelman
Yes.
- [29:32]
Cody Rhodes
More yours, more your time, more your speed.
- [29:35]
Brian Koppelman
Well, it was WWW but, yeah, I Think for me up until, like, mtv, I really. The MTV thing kind of killed it for me a little bit.
- [29:43]
Cody Rhodes
Okay. Yeah, yeah. Did it kill it? Because so many people were now jumping into your world because there was nothing
- [29:49]
Brian Koppelman
dangerous about wrestling for a while.
- [29:50]
Cody Rhodes
Ah, gotcha.
- [29:51]
Brian Koppelman
And the whole point was the carny, like, the whole point was the carny aspect. The whole point was that it was something that was forbidden and we. And strange. It was really, because when something's a subculture, like a micro culture and a subculture, it's really yours. If you're a fan.
- [30:13]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [30:13]
Brian Koppelman
And you understand the codes and you understand what people are saying, you know, if you're a kid and you are following the magazines, when they would tip, okay, someone's going to come into the territory. And then they would get that first match against, you know, Johnny Rods or something, and they'd.
- [30:29]
Cody Rhodes
They.
- [30:30]
Brian Koppelman
And they would, you know, win, and you would, you would kind of track that or if you were a kid and you loved Billy White Wolf of Chief J. Strongbow. And suddenly they're fighting the Executioners, and you kind of think Killer Kowalski is one of the Executioners and they're finally going to get their belt back and they pin him and then a third executioner is hiding under the ring and comes out. Yes. You're, you know, you're throwing things at the little black and white television in the basement. You're enraged. But you also love the show that was put on for you and that you and the small group of people care about so much. Your outrage is so incredibly big. When it got on MTV and it on NBC on those, you know, Saturday nights.
- [31:18]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [31:19]
Brian Koppelman
It just stopped being cool for a minute and it became everybody's thing. And those people didn't have to unders. They didn't have to put in the time.
- [31:26]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [31:26]
Brian Koppelman
They didn't have to learn about who those people were. They didn't have to know who's Ric Flair and who's Nick Bockwinkle, who's Harley Race, what's Terry Funk, who's Dory? Like, they didn't have to learn that stuff. It was given to them. We all had to, like, earn it. You had to, like, stay up late, convince your parents to not watch the TV so you could watch the tv. You had to do a lot to be a wrestling fan. Yeah. And then it was just easy. But then, as wrestling does, man, I had my Amy and I had our first kid.
- [31:54]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [31:54]
Brian Koppelman
And he. We started watching wrestling. Wrestling brings you back. As people say, if you're in it it brings you back, and it brings you back again. And it brings you back again. And I've, you know, and as I say, various things brought me back. Becky brought me back, and your story brought me back again.
- [32:11]
Cody Rhodes
You know, again you were talking about. You said Chief J. Right?
- [32:14]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. So Joe, right?
- [32:16]
Cody Rhodes
Was it Joe Scarpa?
- [32:17]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah.
- [32:19]
Cody Rhodes
I wish more people knew this, but today if you and I are wrestling in the ring and you hit me and I decide not no more. And I start hulking up, right? And I start moving. He hit me again. Nope, not again. And I start. I wish people knew today. That was very common amongst Territory 80s, baby. Fit the idea that. Nah, it's not a not sell. It's a. I'm. I'm pretending not to be hurting.
- [32:48]
Brian Koppelman
Right. It hurts, actually, but I'm not letting you feel it.
- [32:51]
Cody Rhodes
But I'm not letting you know that when as much as Hogan absolutely took over at all. But when he created it as the Hulk up, it's now made it so that this thing is a Hulk up, which is amazing credit to him for creating. But I wish people knew that used to be every top babyface at a certain point, whether it was Chief, Jeep, Jay, of course, the warden, or my old man. When it's, nope, we're done. That was your way. And it's different Japanese wrestling. A lot of people talk about how there's not selling and they don't realize, no, they're selling, that they're not hurt. That's what they're. They're selling. I'm good, I'm good. And then you find out they're not. It's like when you go to the bar and you get drunk, you're not acting more drunk.
- [33:35]
Brian Koppelman
Right.
- [33:36]
Cody Rhodes
Trying to act sober. That's. That's. That's that style and that so much of it got taken away because there was one place for it. MTV. Like you said, rock and wrestling. Then WrestleMania, which were. We're right here now. And. And. And everything it would become. I wish more people knew that. I'll ask you this because you're. You're this area. What territory? I mean, you're closest to WWW, which is a formal, you know, formerly Capital wrestling.
- [34:01]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, yeah.
- [34:02]
Cody Rhodes
D.C. new York. But was there a territory you wish you were close to or you didn't get when you saw these magazines?
- [34:08]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah, I mean, to see your dad and Ric Flair. I mean, that's what. And Ernie Ladd, you know, we'd see Ernie Ladd a lot, but then he would leave. He was my favorite big cat, the Big Cat was.
- [34:17]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [34:17]
Brian Koppelman
Like, that's a guy. I think not enough people really know about how great he was because the footage isn't that great.
- [34:24]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [34:25]
Brian Koppelman
But I think he and your dad on the stick kind of influenced each other in a certain way culturally. They had a similar approach.
- [34:32]
Cody Rhodes
Thunderbolt Patterson, too.
- [34:34]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, yeah. I don't. I don't know.
- [34:35]
Cody Rhodes
His, like, his very similar. And again, there's not enough footage.
- [34:39]
Brian Koppelman
Right.
- [34:40]
Cody Rhodes
There's not. There's not the magic. You're talking about Ray Stevens in San. Yes, it's hard to find.
- [34:46]
Brian Koppelman
It's really hard to find the footage. And like, at the time, ernie ladd being 6, 9 and next football player, and the thing on his thumb, the foreign object, he was genuinely. You were scared of him. Right. You were genuinely believed that guy could do anything.
- [35:00]
Cody Rhodes
Right.
- [35:00]
Brian Koppelman
In a way that later that wasn't the case. But what's so cool about wrestling in this era is that everybody plays in it. And I think you got to credit Punk with it some. Like what he did that, you know, when.
- [35:12]
Cody Rhodes
When, yeah, we're a punk. Friendly show.
- [35:14]
Brian Koppelman
When he really brought that thing into the world, though, and it allowed all the eras to kind of collapse back. It became the freak show again. I think that's the thing. It's the one thing that I think is hard to put back in is the 10 in one, the freak show element that was really a part of it up until Rock and Wrestling.
- [35:34]
Cody Rhodes
I have to ask you, because this is such a unique perspective you have on what we do and storytelling, your outlook when you're. When you're breaking down an episode, when you're writing something, when you're starting it all. Looking at how you just met one, he just walked by in the hall and I think he was nervous or terrified about whatever we're gonna do tonight. That being Ryan Ward, who helps incredibly with both Monday Night Raw and Smackdown now. So his workload is intense. Looking at what we do wrestling wise, if you were to step into the writers room for a day at wwe, at hq, is there anything that you would break and change and say no more? And is there something you would want to see more of?
- [36:17]
Brian Koppelman
You know, I'll tell you, I don't have an ego that tells me that I could do another writer's job better than they can do it, especially in a venue that I'm not expert in. I am a professional wrestling expert fan and I've thought about what you all are able to do, and I love watching Unreal. I don't watch reality tv. But I've watched every episode of Unreal.
- [36:48]
Cody Rhodes
You like Unreal? I love it. Okay.
- [36:49]
Brian Koppelman
I've watched every episode.
- [36:50]
Cody Rhodes
Thank you for liking Unreal. A lot of people watch it and say they don't like it.
- [36:54]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. I mean, I can.
- [36:55]
Cody Rhodes
We love it.
- [36:56]
Brian Koppelman
I love it. And I'll be watching it as long as you guys make it. Yeah. And I love the idea that it presents itself as a shooting and everybody's still working. And it's an amazing thing to see that and watch it.
- [37:11]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah. That's why I don't get mad at. By the way, they're like, oh, you're peeling a curtain back.
- [37:14]
Brian Koppelman
I mean, come on.
- [37:15]
Cody Rhodes
There's 16 curtains.
- [37:16]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. There's so many layers of curtain the whole time.
- [37:18]
Cody Rhodes
You don't know what curtain. And I, I, that's why I kind of let you know. You're, you're, you're, you're just working more. You're. The match is just still on.
- [37:27]
Brian Koppelman
Of course, you know, you're never. That's the thing. If you're, if you guys are. It's a. This is the amazing thing about the era that we're in is if, if, if you guys are talking, you're working and for. But, but we can forget it. Like, I can forget that, and I can, you know, believe it. And so I would love to. I mean, I've been at, you know, I'd love to go spend a day or two in the writers room, but I, like, I read Brian Gewirtz's book, and I know Brian a little bit, and it's a different era, of course, but I read the book and understood what he was doing. But I think these disciplines, I mean, it is like, if somebody was doing wrestling in Japan, there is an adjustment period to come here.
- [38:06]
Cody Rhodes
Sure.
- [38:07]
Brian Koppelman
There's an adjustment period in any of these disciplines. So going from movies to television, which is what I've done, or going writing for different purpose, they're different beasts. And so, sure, I can think, oh, I know what I'd do. But you guys have to put a show on Monday night, you gotta put a show on Thursday night. You gotta set up the live event, you gotta set up the house show, even though not nearly as many. You gotta, you gotta set up all sorts of things. And, and every time I think, oh, you know, hitting a referee out of the ring and a false count, I've seen it too many times until I see it the next time. And it works on me, and it gets me mad.
- [38:47]
Cody Rhodes
Sure. Okay.
- [38:48]
Brian Koppelman
And then it's like, you know, what do they got me?
- [38:50]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [38:51]
Brian Koppelman
And I think it's really hard. I think it's just really hard to. I think it's very hard job to be. And I think that Paul and the guys. Both Paul's and the guys do it great. And I think maybe the best thing about Unreal is how it is truly. I think the most shoot element of it is how uncomfortable it makes Heyman, I think.
- [39:14]
Cody Rhodes
I love that the camera's been turned on that room.
- [39:15]
Brian Koppelman
I think it's so uncomfortable. Like he did when I used to do a podcast, my own pod. Paul and I did like a two and a half hour pod. And it was like one of the first, maybe the first time he ever really, truly dropped the character. And it was so hard to get him to do it. And so rewarding when he really spoke honestly about his childhood. And now he's more comfortable doing it. But that's way easier than getting him to really let you see people making script decisions. I can feel how uncomfortable it makes him.
- [39:46]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [39:47]
Brian Koppelman
Because he's a carny at heart.
- [39:49]
Cody Rhodes
Well, too. He. I think he's conceded to the idea that, oh, yeah, these are good ideas and this is a good grid and this is a good map. But the magic now, and I don't think he'd be offended at me telling you, is he sits up in Gorilla in the Corner of Gorilla. He looks at what's on paper and he adds legitimate magic to it. I just spoke to somebody, I said, let's put this together first, then go there.
- [40:17]
Brian Koppelman
Love it.
- [40:17]
Cody Rhodes
Then go there. Let's bring him ours and then go there. Because if we go there first, we're not even challenging ourselves as artists. He's the cheat code, and I need the cheat code some nights.
- [40:28]
Brian Koppelman
Okay. That's a really important. So when I wrote you that note, it was because I thought your episode with Cena was like an incredible. I would tell anyone who wanted to break into any part of show business, almost any business, to listen to that because John really chose your show to lay out his entire philosophy.
- [40:44]
Cody Rhodes
And also at like 8 in the morning.
- [40:46]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah.
- [40:46]
Cody Rhodes
With a live round. Yeah. Christmas suit that David Allen made him. That was so nice.
- [40:52]
Brian Koppelman
And he. He.
- [40:52]
Cody Rhodes
He said, I want you to have my first words after retirement. It didn't work at all. And somehow he made it work. I thought, man, you just did. You don't have to do this. We could have. It's wrestling.
- [41:04]
Brian Koppelman
Right.
- [41:04]
Cody Rhodes
You want to do it the week before?
- [41:05]
Brian Koppelman
Of course.
- [41:06]
Cody Rhodes
Nope.
- [41:07]
Brian Koppelman
Nope. Yeah.
- [41:07]
Cody Rhodes
8am and it's fan.
- [41:08]
Brian Koppelman
But it was so great because he. If you listen closely to. Gave you a roadmap to be successful at show business, how hard you have to work, how hard you have to be willing to iterate. Look at the data change. And what you just said, I just want to translate it for one second. Is because people all the time want to know, oh, can I get notes on this idea that I have or this thing? And what you said is, make it as good as you can by yourself first. Keep going. You know, it's not good enough yet. Do everything that you can see to make something better. And then if you have the opportunity to go to someone like Paul Heyman or an expert, then get them to help you raise it to one more level. Sure. But I think people now, because everything's so available in a way you can access people. People write the note too fast, send the script in to somebody too fast, try to get the audition too fast, say they should make it up from developmental to the. It's like, do all the work you can and you will be recognized and then try to fight your way to the next level. So you're like, yeah, let's get our story together and not have Heyman work on the thing.
- [42:18]
Cody Rhodes
Not yet.
- [42:19]
Brian Koppelman
And tell us the stuff we'll figure out in the next 10 minutes. Yeah, give him the best we can do and then let him elevate it.
- [42:24]
Cody Rhodes
Absolutely. And there's kind of three paths and the branching paths. Mr. Heyman might give it a. I saw this scene once, and this is similar. And the stakes. And what if you said something like that? He'll look at it from the way my dad did. We're making movies, kid. We're making movies, kid. That was always, we're making movies. Then if you take it the other way, say you can't get that, you got Michael P.S. hayes down the hall. P.S. is going to take it from the perspective of where does that leave us in the week? And then don't you want to get here? And that's going to be even better. He's taking it from the perspective of the roadmap a little bit more versus that moment in time. And then if you take it the other way, you take it to Bruce Prichard.
- [43:19]
Brian Koppelman
Right.
- [43:20]
Cody Rhodes
Then Bruce is going to speak to you from the perspective of Paul Bosch and Texas. And he's got his own. The flavors here are so wild that, like I said, it's a cheat code. Which some nights you need. If you're going, the schedule can be what it is. Right. Some nights just Say, I've told Kirschenbaum, one of our writers, there have been one night where I said, write it all down. I'll say it. Write it all down. Most of the time, this is my story. It's my character. I want to. I want to get it as good as I can, and then you guys fix it up, filter it, produce it for me. One of the things I love about WWE is taking talented people, but then producing them. You're producing them and funneling. And right now, Hunter has a different style, funnel, triple H, that being then Vince had than any other booker. He has a different style. That's really fun if you're a player, for him to go, hey, I want to be your main guy. I want to be. But this is my idea. What about this? Try it. And to try his sandbox to try and collab and match that idea.
- [44:33]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. Well, everyone, actors need an actor. Not that you guys aren't actors. You're actors plus athletes, plus storytellers. But you need someone to look at it and help tell you, well, this is what it's saying. And it could say something slightly different. And how would you say it? Slightly differently. And it's part of the magic of the whole thing.
- [44:51]
Cody Rhodes
You mentioned the. The. What do you want to talk about again? Thank you. The Wheatley American Vodka. You mentioned the one with John Cena. I honestly, I'm going to be honest, John has made it a little difficult, though, because if you work with anyone in the Hollywood side of things who's like, yeah, I worked with John. Okay, so I'll be first on set by 40 minutes. I'll have more improv ready. I'll be last. Like, he is such an insane hard worker. And I believe I saw this firsthand
- [45:23]
Brian Koppelman
because we're on an episode of the Bear together. Yes, we're both on the. On the same episode of the Bear.
- [45:28]
Cody Rhodes
Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
- [45:29]
Brian Koppelman
And so I was. I walked on, and I had just heard that morning that John was doing that part and being. It was. You know, I love being on that show. It's an incredible thing. But there he and I were sitting at a little table before that scene started. And, yeah, he was so prepared and so ready to go and had so many ideas, and everyone loved him. And you're standing next to him. You don't even feel like a person compared to him. He's like the. You know, you're looking at this guy who's smarter than everybody and bigger and works harder and had probably already, you know, lifted that morning.
- [46:03]
Cody Rhodes
He's It's. It's. It's a bit of a problem. It's a bit of. Yeah, I. I'm saying, hey, there's a few of us who are ready. We always. With his challenges also, why does he
- [46:12]
Brian Koppelman
have to be so fucking polite? I mean, he's so fucking polite to people.
- [46:16]
Cody Rhodes
So the politeness, I mean, all of it is the evolution from the QB spot here. His evolution is so unique to follow and watch. I like that I have a little bit of an insight to him before he was fully, I guess, matured. And that little bit I have is kind of the only way I can remind him. Like, hey, buddy, I get it. You speak all these languages now, and yes, you're incredibly smart. I get it. But, man, that was why it was so fun. Working with him was everything I dreamed it would be because he was very hard on me and I thought there
- [46:59]
Brian Koppelman
was a lot left unsaid about those car rides. I mean, there's things about those car rides that someone would have to not have microphones to really hear about what was going on with the team.
- [47:09]
Cody Rhodes
He was very hard on me when he came back. He was very. But not in the wrong way. I do no service to the title that we brought out here. I do no service to the guys. I just wrestled. Trick Williams, oba, his first match. I do no service unless I have this information he gave me and I try to put it in play. And he meant it. John meant it when he said, the day somebody does all this, they can take it. The day he meant it. And I just hope more guys listening know what that means. It means all the. He said an incredible standard. And I'm glad you know how this is because you grew up liking the industry. You grew up liking pro wrestling. I always hated its cultural relevancy, how deep it would get its penetration globally. But then the treatment wasn't the same as maybe an actor on a show. It wasn't. And I, to me, you know my favorite actors, right? Andy Garcia is one of my favorite actors.
- [48:05]
Brian Koppelman
I love Andy.
- [48:06]
Cody Rhodes
The other favorite actor I have is my dad, but most people wouldn't know he's an actor in a way. You know, it's just. I'm glad that the worlds are starting to come together in a way where it's such a nice thing.
- [48:19]
Brian Koppelman
Your dad was also such a good basketball player, right? Graceful, natural athlete.
- [48:26]
Cody Rhodes
His whole athleticism, I'll be frank. Brian is. It's. It. It's not because he really was, but.
- [48:34]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, yeah, it's annoying, though.
- [48:35]
Cody Rhodes
Because it's like him and Harley Race look like big old, just barrel chested heels. They didn't look like they could jump. He had a great jumper. Incredible baseball player. My mom always waxes poetic about, oh, he had these beautiful calves. Like all this. It. I don't know. Athletes were different. But I appreciate that you saw it because I'm gonna ask you too about Bruno and why he was your favorite but Dusty. I always am shocked when people think it was his robust and his promo. And they don't realize the third part was, oh, he could go in the ring. That was the deal.
- [49:15]
Brian Koppelman
That's what I'm saying. He didn't let you down. When you would read about these guys and you would see him and there was. It was as exciting. Well, he had that thing that natural, great natural athletes have. He moved. I think that's part of what he and Ernie Ladd have in common. As different as their body types were.
- [49:30]
Cody Rhodes
Land on their feet, they both could move.
- [49:33]
Brian Koppelman
They could move. There was a gracefulness. Your dad, you know, big man who's not a thin big man who could move with a sense of grace is all. It's Charles Barkley, right? It's a fascinating thing to see.
- [49:44]
Cody Rhodes
It's wild.
- [49:45]
Brian Koppelman
And you don't often, you don't often see it. But Bruno, are you. Can you shoot hoop? Like, are you.
- [49:51]
Cody Rhodes
Have you seen the video?
- [49:52]
Brian Koppelman
I haven't seen you play.
- [49:53]
Cody Rhodes
Okay.
- [49:53]
Brian Koppelman
I'm a good basketball player.
- [49:54]
Cody Rhodes
So you would be. I don't want you to watch it because you would be ashamed of me.
- [49:58]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, no.
- [49:59]
Cody Rhodes
And the.
- [50:00]
Brian Koppelman
So I've seen video of your dad playing basketball.
- [50:03]
Cody Rhodes
That Charlotte police game where he's just sinking buckets and leading the team. Staying in Lex Luger out there. No idea what's going on. Just running up and down. Our friends at fanatics who helped put this whole thing together. God bless Michael Rubin. He wants to do the Fanatics fest the games. No, no lie, no hyperbole. I missed every shot. And Bailey texted me and said, is something wrong with your legs?
- [50:28]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, I gotta see Craig. Can I, can someone please send this clip?
- [50:32]
Cody Rhodes
It's so. Because they thought like, oh, he's probably shooting.
- [50:35]
Brian Koppelman
Where were you shooting from?
- [50:35]
Cody Rhodes
Everywhere. It was a, it was, it was a, it. Was it a three point class or just a shoot around? And the guy.
- [50:41]
Brian Koppelman
Did you have a hoop in your driveway, girl?
- [50:42]
Cody Rhodes
I did and I wasn't that bad. But then, so I figured like, they've seen it and I was in a suit and tie, but it's still no excuse. They've seen it. They shouldn't invite me back this year. They're like, hey, do it. You're going to do the Fanatics games.
- [50:55]
Brian Koppelman
Why?
- [50:56]
Cody Rhodes
I wasn't in the running like, but I think I'm going to go shots
- [51:00]
Brian Koppelman
up ahead of time.
- [51:00]
Cody Rhodes
So I think I'm going to go at it again and I think I'm going to try and subvert expectations this time and get close. Tom Brady won it last year.
- [51:07]
Brian Koppelman
Put some shots up. Yeah, a little practice.
- [51:10]
Cody Rhodes
I played, I played horse with him every day in junior high and I never beat him. Ever, ever got and one time I got close, it was always a hook. Always like a little space hook, like because he was a huge Dr. J fan. Yeah. Always the hook. Are you ready to hold WWE history in the palm of your hand? Topps is bringing you closer to the action than ever before. With WWE Tops now highlighting the biggest matches and milestones from WWE shows and ples throughout the year. Topps now is enhancing the fan experience by connecting collectors to the superstars and spectacles that ignite their passion. Featuring stunning event exclusive photography, each card is made for the moment. And for some lucky collectors, that moment could become the pull of a lifetime. Along with serial numbered parallels, some Top Snow releases offer a chance at rare short prints, Superstar autographs, and even pieces of the mat, gear or other items used during the featured match. So which moment will you collect with each card only available for a limited time, you won't want to wait to begin your Tops now journey. Be sure to subscribe to WWE Tops now mailing list on topps.com and follow Topps on all social media platforms so you never miss a single moment. You said your your favorite of all was Bruno, correct?
- [52:35]
Brian Koppelman
Oh yeah. I can. Yes, 100%.
- [52:37]
Cody Rhodes
So Bruno's favorite. Do you have a top? Do you have and the worst question that wrestlers get asked all the time, but I feel fair to ask you and shut it down if you don't want to answer it. Do you have a Mount Rushmore of wrestlers for yourself?
- [52:50]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, I, yeah, I can answer amount but it's not going to be the Mount Rushmore. I mean I've watched all the clips of people. I can't argue with what people say the Mount Rushmore should be. Oh no, but you're obviously that Mount Rushmore is right. Meaning the people who drew the most, they matter the most to wrestling. But if coming up in the era I did, I mean it's the guys that were. It's truly the people that we're talking about. It's. It's. Bruno and your dad are the first two people on it. You got to have Ric Flair on there.
- [53:17]
Cody Rhodes
Great.
- [53:18]
Brian Koppelman
That's. That's three people.
- [53:19]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [53:20]
Brian Koppelman
And the fourth spot, the. You know, when you're. When you were my age, there were guys on TV who just made you smile like Ivan Putzky, but he doesn't belong up. You can't put Ivan Putzki up there. Maybe Mil Mascaris. That's a great Mount Rush from back in the day. But if you want to know why. If your question is, why Bruno Sammartino.
- [53:41]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [53:42]
Brian Koppelman
And I think he's. You know, in fact, I. I cared so much that my son. Who. And it only matters for this reason, because you'll understand how important studying was to him, not to me. I didn't go to this. My son ended up going to Harv. Yeah, it was great. But here's the thing. His sats that you can imagine were important to him were 48 hours after Bruno's induction into the hall of Fame. And I made Sam come with me to the Garden, and he's like, dad, I have got to really. I have to study for this. I spent my life trying to do this thing. And I was like, no, no, that's true, but it's very important that Bruno's getting in the hall of Fame tonight. And he's like, I cannot believe you're gonna make me. I'm like, well, no, my friends are gonna go, you know, you gotta come with me. And I was like, you know, I couldn't even get into the Garden when my dad wanted to take me, so you have to come with me. And he's like, yeah, but I don't care. And. And then I said, but when you did, I got you to meet Scott Steiner once. And he was like, shit, you're right. All right, so we came together, but I decided that night I didn't want to ask any of my friends to get me tickets. I just wanted to come here like a wrestling fan. I didn't want to be in a special area. I didn't want to go backstage. I didn't want to locker room. I wanted to come like the kid that I was and sit in the bleep. Like, sit in the fucking bad seats and watch Bruno get inducted. And so I had a Bruno Sammartino T shirt. And we took the train here and had decent seats, you know, I sprung for decent seats, it turned out. But Sam, he brought his, like, SAT Study guide, and I'm There, you know, I've mostly lost my Long island accent, but not that night. And I was, you know, fucking Bruno, and I was so excited and fully character, and he's sitting next to me studying for the sat. So watching him get in was this incredibly moving thing. And the reason is what you just said about what matters to you, which is never breaking the promise to the fans.
- [55:41]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [55:42]
Brian Koppelman
And there was not a moment, you know, you guys all talked about in the old days. Right. And Paul Heyman's talked about it a lot. You would protect the business at all costs. And if you were in a bar and someone was acting like a jerk, you guys would protect. Have to shut them down.
- [55:57]
Cody Rhodes
And he got beat up and get fired.
- [55:58]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. Right.
- [55:59]
Cody Rhodes
Bill Watson fire you, at least.
- [56:01]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah, you. But you. You couldn't ever acknowledge what. You couldn't even allow the question because the business was in jeopardy. And as you know, Bruno's the only guy who never, ever publicly broke even long after. Yeah, he refused. He would tell his story like that when he did Punk's podcast, and he told that long. That long story. He still has convinced himself that he lifted up Hastex Calhoun, and that's how he got, like. He believes. He. He made himself believe the whole thing.
- [56:35]
Cody Rhodes
Sure.
- [56:36]
Brian Koppelman
And so he made me believe in it. Right. He made. He was a lonely guy, and he made kids who would have a lonely, bad day believe that he was in there for us. Right.
- [56:46]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [56:47]
Brian Koppelman
And when he got betrayed, it was like, we got betrayed. And, you know, you go back and watch and look, I'm not a big fan of the Perm era. He made, like, everybody the guy made. I mean, him and Ken Patera with the horrible perms, you know, fighting each other. But that guy was a true believer, and he rewarded you, being a true believer and whether, obviously, he knew what was going on, but he. Kayfabe was baked so deep into that guy.
- [57:16]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [57:16]
Brian Koppelman
That to his d. Literally, to his dying day, he told the story of having to leave to come back and to convince the guy. I mean, he tells the Buddy dude, I think he believes the Buddy Rogers match was a shoot. Like, I think he told it so many times that he believed it. So I still believe it. Like, to this day, I would tell somebody else, you know, Buddy Rogers didn't want to give him the belt. Yeah. I know it's not true, but it's what I believe in my heart.
- [57:43]
Cody Rhodes
But, I mean, the man who Shot Liberty Valance, Print the Legend.
- [57:47]
Brian Koppelman
And also one of my favorite movies of all time could be my favorite Movie of all time. And I still have a picture of Bruno in my office.
- [57:54]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah, well, you said he talks about the superstar and how it went down, winning the title and the react. The truth is, when it's that good, I don't know if they're lying. And that's the beauty. I have grown up in this business, I should know everything for what it is, right? Oh, that's what it really is. There is nights that I still don't know. And that's the one thing I'm so grateful about being a pro wrestler and being in this world is I still have. That's why I like Unreal. The challenge of Unreal is, okay, we're gonna show him everything, right? Are we? You know, like the challenges, but also him believing it. And, I mean, to have the soundtrack. You hear it all the time now. People talk about the chance of Bruno through the garden, the chance of Bruno in Philly, the chance of Bruno being. He didn't even need music. Of course, there was none then, but just the fact that it echoed throughout to be people's. You'll hear this a lot from different wrestling bookers. You hear them say, I want to make him my guy. That's my guy. I didn't realize the importance of my guy until later in my career. What it really means, it means you are responsible that everyone here had a good time. And if you are beaten up and sad and broken, you still need to make sure that they know at the end of the night, okay, not my. Not my guy's night. But it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be. That's.
- [59:28]
Brian Koppelman
This is really. What you just said is really. You're getting right to the heart of why this all matters so much. I don't know if you ever saw Penn and Teller, you know, the magicians.
- [59:41]
Cody Rhodes
I once saw them, actually, when they
- [59:43]
Brian Koppelman
did their old show at the west side Arts Theater. The first show, it had a lot of carney, ten in one elements to it in the end of the show, which Penn doesn't do anymore, but he would eat fire and he would deconstruct what everybody thinks cold fire it is to eat fire and why you eat fire and how you eat fire. And he said, you know, oftentimes some guy who's trying to be smart for his date will try to tell them, let me explain to you how this is done. And he said, that's the wrong question. The wrong question isn't, how do I eat fire? That's the wrong question. The right question is, why do I eat fire. Yeah. And when you think of it that way, why do you do what you do? Because there is some kid there who needs you to do it.
- [60:31]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [60:31]
Brian Koppelman
Who had a day that you can't even imagine today. And one thing after another went bad, maybe very bad. But he can believe in the deal you're making with him, that you're gonna fight for the good.
- [60:48]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [60:49]
Brian Koppelman
And it's so important that that exists in a world that offers it almost nowhere. And the fact that every night you guys show up to do that, and you show up because you know that somebody in the. Yeah. Most people, they're just having a fun night out. But for some people, and even if it's just one or two people, it means the entire world to them. And that's the. The importance of what you're doing. It's the thing that a lot of, you know, maybe people don't understand. And why didn't you say, well, why shouldn't people understand what Dusty did in the ring and what he gave of himself and the acting? But the people who needed it on that. I needed Bruno. There were nights, I mean, when I was 12 and a half, and I. My closest friend committed suicide. And, you know, no one can explain that to you. It wasn't an era where there was therapy easily available. Yeah. But Bruno Sammartino was gonna make sure Larry Zbisco knew that he couldn't betray him.
- [61:43]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [61:44]
Brian Koppelman
And it was something to believe in when you couldn't believe in anything else. Right. And that's the. That's the incredible thing that. That Cena understands. Yeah. And you understand. And the. And the. The greatest ever do it.
- [61:58]
Cody Rhodes
Understand. It made me think a little bit about flair as you're talking, because Flair's lived kind of like a live wire. The good, the bad, everything. When he's in there, I think. I think I've even heard him say it before. Thanks for needing me. I needed you just as much. That's probably. You'll hear me, like, a braggadocious sense in media and stuff today. I'll tell people all the time because they talk a lot about, well, Cody's 40 and punk is this age. And I always say, well, I don't sweat any of it. Like, I don't sweat any of the new class. What I mean is, I already know how great they are. I already know the incredible moves and the high spots and the athleticism. It's like any sports, like college football. The speeds didn't turn way up. I know all that. But until they find the thing that makes you sincerely connect to them. You're just doing a dance with your buddy and. And that's not what we're here for. And we're in the place that lets you have it for good, for bad. Loudest, the longest. I mean, we're in the Garden tonight, and I'm excited. There's a couple guys. This would be their first.
- [63:07]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, really? Their first time in the Garden.
- [63:08]
Cody Rhodes
Oh, yeah. This is their first moment. And to be able to take that and look. And this is a funny thing about baby faces. I can always tell a green baby face. And I'm not the expert on anything, but I can always tell a green baby face by. They come out when they go to slap hands, but they don't look at anyone. They touch a face, miss a hand that wasn't there because they're nervous, because they think this is a thing baby faces do. Nah, look at them. Look at them. If you only get one, I mean, Sid, he's going in the hall of fame. Sid would just do one little fist pound right there. Oh, you could feel it in the whole arena. You wanted to get that fist pound. It's a way to ground yourself to what we're doing. And again, I like you've brought this. The Cena style of why we do this all out. My gosh, man. Thank you for coming on here, man.
- [63:58]
Brian Koppelman
Thanks for having me. What a pleasure.
- [64:00]
Cody Rhodes
This is special. Do you miss the old entrance?
- [64:04]
Brian Koppelman
No, you know, I've been. I'm so used to the. Where I live, like, I just take the train.
- [64:09]
Cody Rhodes
But I mean, the old entrance in the arena, you know, I know exactly
- [64:11]
Brian Koppelman
what you're talking about. You know, I remember the rental. Yes, I. I have a good story. I'll tell you off Mike about the. There's a lot of stuff I miss about the way things in New York used to be. But if you're a New Yorker.
- [64:22]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [64:23]
Brian Koppelman
You have two choices. You can, like, live in this nostalgia of it, or you can just move forward at the pace of the city.
- [64:30]
Cody Rhodes
Okay.
- [64:31]
Brian Koppelman
So if I think about that, I'm thinking about my dad, and I'm thinking about coming to those Nick games. Clyde and Pearl.
- [64:37]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [64:38]
Brian Koppelman
And the crowd chant Bruno. And instead I'm here with the crowd chanting for Cody.
- [64:46]
Cody Rhodes
And we hope they'll probably be me out of the building, one or the other.
- [64:49]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. One of those. We're happy with suck tonight.
- [64:51]
Cody Rhodes
We're happy with either suck.
- [64:52]
Brian Koppelman
Just, you know, try not to suck, man. And then they'll cheer. It'll be fine.
- [64:56]
Cody Rhodes
It'll work out.
- [64:56]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah. I mean, could you just not suck?
- [64:59]
Cody Rhodes
No, I. I will. I will tonight, I promise you. I give you my word, I will do my best to not suck.
- [65:04]
Brian Koppelman
There it is.
- [65:05]
Cody Rhodes
I will do my best. Okay, one more question. Earl the Pearl. What was his manager's name?
- [65:12]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, the guy who would follow him around was called Dancing Harry, and you could find footage of him. And he followed him from Baltimore. Then when he came to the Knicks, it was an incredible thing. He would put a hex on the opposing team, on whoever was playing well, or on the coach, and. And it was like a pro wrestling manager.
- [65:30]
Cody Rhodes
So we. We like to do this thing. Wheatley, American vodka, myself. We consider ourselves the American dream team. And I always want to ask our guests who they consider their dream team. The way to put this is explain it. Yeah. Who are you going into a war games with? Right. If you've got five guys or a Survivor Series match, teams of fives strive to survive. That's a lot to say with a lisp. Who are you bringing with you to those type moments?
- [65:57]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, that's a. That's a good question.
- [65:59]
Cody Rhodes
We've had a lot of answers with six people. Three people, two people. Who's in that circle? Who's in that orbit?
- [66:06]
Brian Koppelman
Honestly? I'm bringing Becky Lynch.
- [66:08]
Cody Rhodes
Great choice.
- [66:09]
Brian Koppelman
I'm bringing Becky and I'm following her. I mean, Becky came on our show.
- [66:13]
Cody Rhodes
Yes.
- [66:13]
Brian Koppelman
And the pressure. I've seen professional athletes, I've seen famous people from other walks of life who all said, like, oh, I'm so. I'll never be nervous. Don't worry. I don't have to prepare. I'll come in the two people. And it's not a surprise. Coach Calipari did a cameo and was the same. And he's not an actor, but he came in cold. He was like, on. You could give that guy. He was sending me tapes weeks in advance of the speech the character had to give and going like, did I do it right? Is this good? He coached himself up and he was incredible. And Becky was the other one. Becky had a hard scene to do, real acting. And she came in and she had to do stunts and acting, and everybody was freaking out that she was on set and nobody knew what it was going to be like, and she just crushed it. So I would say I would have Becky and I mean, you're on there, man.
- [67:08]
Cody Rhodes
Oh, I'm honored. I think you're the first time a guest has actually picked me for their team.
- [67:13]
Brian Koppelman
You would be on there. I'm really. Listen It's a serious question. Who would you go into battle with?
- [67:18]
Cody Rhodes
Yes.
- [67:18]
Brian Koppelman
I mean, I gotta stick with folks who. I'll tell you, I picked Paul Heyman, too, because I want someone to think our way out of the problem.
- [67:26]
Cody Rhodes
I'm gonna be straight. I don't know if he's gonna battle a lot.
- [67:28]
Brian Koppelman
No, no, no, he'll stop. He'll. Right before the battle. He'll get us out of it.
- [67:32]
Cody Rhodes
Old school horse commander, way up on the hill, you know.
- [67:35]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah, I think that's my squad.
- [67:37]
Cody Rhodes
That's. That's it right there.
- [67:38]
Brian Koppelman
That's my squad.
- [67:38]
Cody Rhodes
That's a great squad.
- [67:39]
Brian Koppelman
We do fine. I'm not just gonna throw names at you. I gotta think about who I'd really want. We would dominate in this situation.
- [67:46]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [67:46]
Brian Koppelman
You know, I mean.
- [67:47]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah, we could add Dance and Harry to curse some people.
- [67:50]
Brian Koppelman
There's. I mean, I could add a lot of people, but if I'm really. If I'm really thinking about.
- [67:53]
Cody Rhodes
I love that. Thank you.
- [67:54]
Brian Koppelman
I'm just gonna pick big guys. I'm not just gonna pick, you know,
- [67:56]
Cody Rhodes
Roman, he's pretty big. I always pick a lot of shooters. Like, anyone who's. Who tells me, like, oh, I'd bring in. I'm like, yep, we'd win, you know? Yeah.
- [68:07]
Brian Koppelman
So, yeah, I'd bring. I mean, you'd pick Brock, but then let's say you pick Brock and then the plane there crashes. He's going to eat you. You know what I mean? You're going to be food. So I don't. I don't want to.
- [68:16]
Cody Rhodes
I've never pulled that thread full. But if you think about it, you
- [68:19]
Brian Koppelman
would be his he for everything about that guy. Goes out. He hunts. He could butcher the thing himself. You're a dead man.
- [68:24]
Cody Rhodes
He. He sent. He sent me an entire cow that he butchered and cut for the meat and sent me the meat. But he also sent me a photo of him with the cow.
- [68:34]
Brian Koppelman
You see? Yeah. You think that. And that cow thought, I'm good. I got Brock on my side.
- [68:38]
Cody Rhodes
It's just him with a. Just him with, like the vest on and just a thumbs up. And it's. I mean, he's an unbelievable, unbelievable athlete in terms of long term, you know, storytelling. And then when you develop characters for your worlds, is there any time you have pulled from pro wrestling or have a similar approach to maybe how a pro wrestling angle or storyline function in terms of your process creating a character?
- [69:08]
Brian Koppelman
I mean, I'll answer it really honestly. Wrestling is so deeply ingrained in me from and the. From watching it and reading those magazines that there's no way I wouldn't be. But I will say my process, if you're really asking the question. Like, I'm not very analytical when I do that stuff as a. As a writer, as a. As a someone working as an artist, I'm really trying to get to a state of flow. I'm not trying to think, how can I put these elements together? I'm trying to get to a place where my imagination is just flowing so that when I'm coming up with a character or I'm thinking about what a character would say or feel or think, it's so connected to. Like. Like, I. I'm just. You know, there are so many processes I have in place to do that. Like, I have to. I get up, I meditate, I journal, I exercise, I think. So that I'm trying to find a way to trick myself into not letting that analytical part take over so that it's that feeling. I mean, you know it. You know that feeling when this is what you're saying, when you're in a state of flow in the ring, even though you're calling the mat, you know, whether the heel's calling, even though you guys are talking and there's stuff coming in.
- [70:22]
Cody Rhodes
Sure.
- [70:23]
Brian Koppelman
You're not thinking about the character Cody Rhodes. Those are the best moments, are the moments where you're flying, right? Yes. And that's where you know who you are. Of course, you're not, but you are in that. I describe it as being, like, barely tethered to the earth, but floating but somehow hyper present. And I think when you're creating stuff, that's the best. And so, of course, I'm thinking of every double cross I ever saw in Somewhere in Me. I'm thinking about what makes a character heroic and valiant. And I'm thinking about everything I've read and come across and watched. And a lot of those formative years were spent during the week because, remember, wrestling was only on, like, once a week. Or maybe you could get on uhf, you could pick something up a second time. So you were thinking about all week long, like, what are those matches gonna be? What's Dominic Denucci gonna say? You know? And is gorilla gonna. You know? And you were thinking all that stuff through, and you were imagining these characters. So of course it's in there, but it's not in there in a conscious way. But nothing is really in there in a conscious way. It's all. You take stuff in, and then you hope when you're creating. Yeah. All that synthesizing has just happened and it shows up, you know.
- [71:39]
Cody Rhodes
Can I have your permission to use state of flow?
- [71:42]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah, anytime.
- [71:43]
Cody Rhodes
Because that is. That is me today.
- [71:45]
Brian Koppelman
Yeah.
- [71:46]
Cody Rhodes
There's a bunch going on about, well, we could say we need to get here and a little setup for this. And none of it was, why don't we just flow at one time? Why don't we just. We could just pipe dream. What if we say, I love the idea of state of flow. Flow. And I feel like state of flow only comes from being prepared.
- [72:04]
Brian Koppelman
That's what I was going to say.
- [72:05]
Cody Rhodes
So.
- [72:05]
Brian Koppelman
So people can confuse. Just to follow the cena thing of trying to give, like, actionable things to people if they're young and they're listening.
- [72:11]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [72:13]
Brian Koppelman
Like, don't ignore all the stuff about. Like, the way I got to that place is by doing a whole bunch of stuff. Yes. Meditating, journaling, thinking a lot, reading a lot, watching a lot of stuff. And then you write from a place of freedom. Then you have to rewrite and rework the thing and take those things, and then you apply your analytical mind to. Is this strong enough? Is this character real enough?
- [72:38]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [72:39]
Brian Koppelman
Does the character want something? And I'd say that's the last thing. What's key for professional wrestling? What do these characters in the ring want and why do they want that thing so badly? And I'm. I'm thinking about that in every scene that I write. Because if you think about, what does somebody want, why can't they get it, and why do they need it so badly right now?
- [73:01]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [73:02]
Brian Koppelman
The rest of it is very straightforward and relatively easy, if you're prepared. It's like, what does Cody Rhodes want and why does he need it now? And what's hurting Cody Rhodes right now that's stopping him from getting that thing? And if he gets that thing, will he finally be all the way home? Oh, no, he won't. He got that thing. But it turns out that other thing moved, and now he really needs that.
- [73:24]
Cody Rhodes
The other thing always moves. Huh?
- [73:26]
Brian Koppelman
It's got to move.
- [73:27]
Cody Rhodes
It always moves.
- [73:28]
Brian Koppelman
Oh, it's got to move. Otherwise, show's over.
- [73:30]
Cody Rhodes
It's over. That's an incredible answer. Thank you. My favorite thing here, you might have heard it when I talked to John, but my favorite thing here is I got to learn. I got to sit here and learn just now, and I get to go apply it immediately in the world's most famous arena.
- [73:47]
Brian Koppelman
Do it.
- [73:48]
Cody Rhodes
Thank you. This is the Wheatley jingle. I will play it for you. And I will ask you to replace a single word. Vodka soda. Wheatley so good I drink it. This song right here is for the red, white and blue. You got good taste and you drink like it too. Wheatley so good I drink it neatly. Wheatley American vodka so Wheatley so good I drink it neatly. If we could replace the word neatly with anything, Brian, what would you replace it with?
- [74:20]
Brian Koppelman
Wheatley so good I drink it.
- [74:23]
Cody Rhodes
We love that. We love that. Thank you so much for being here. This is an incredible episode and this meant a lot. I know you don't do these that often. It's an honor for us to have you. And I say people about the wrestling space all the time. You know, we're here in the garden, WWE and all, but this, our house is your house. You're part of our family now.
- [74:47]
Brian Koppelman
So thank you, man. I. I told myself coming over here that I was gonna bring my 14 year old self with me.
- [74:51]
Cody Rhodes
Yeah.
- [74:52]
Brian Koppelman
And I wasn't gonna allow myself to be like a professional and cool. That I was gonna just be like. I say bring that 14 year old who. The 13 year old who couldn't get into the garden. I'm in the garden now.
- [75:02]
Cody Rhodes
Let's go, Brian. Thank you guys so much. Thank you. Thank you.
- [75:06]
Brian Koppelman
Thank you all. This is awesome. That was great. That was really fun, man. So much. Thank you, dude. What a pleasure.