Illadelph Halflife

Summary

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Podcast Summary: What Had Happened Was – Season 4, Episode 7: "Illadelph Halflife"

Host: Open Mike Eagle
Guest: Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson
Release Date: November 22, 2023

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Episode Overview

In this rich, candid episode, host Open Mike Eagle sits down with legendary Roots drummer and bandleader Questlove to dissect the creative tensions, internal battles, and hustles that defined The Roots’ third studio album, Illadelph Halflife. The conversation uncovers the tectonic shifts within the group, the quest for mainstream and street credibility, and the unique convergence of hip-hop culture, barbershop litmus tests, and the pressure to please both critics and true-school fans. Questlove gives an unvarnished look behind the scenes, balancing humor and wisdom, and tracing the group’s evolution from an experimental live band to bona fide hip-hop heavyweights.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Creative Conflicts: Sampling vs. Live Instrumentation

• Questlove’s Internal Battle: Throughout The Roots' early years, Questlove desired to pivot toward traditional hip-hop by using samples, but the rest of the band—and their creative environment—pushed for live instrumentation.
• Evolution Over Albums: Questlove observes, “For the first three albums, it's always been a tug of war between I wanted to sample. They're like, no live” (07:40).
• Band Democracy: The roots’ third album represented a crucial departure point, as other members pressed for “a more traditional hip hop album,” causing Questlove to fear replacement in his own band (23:00–23:09).

  “Are you trying to, in a benign way, like, tell me that I'm about to get replaced in my own group?” (Questlove, 23:00)

2. The Album Title and Its Meaning

• Origin of ‘Illadelph Halflife’: Conceived by late manager Richard Nichols, inspired by scientific half-life—could either explode or implode, symbolizing a band at a crossroads.

  “When something's on Half Life, you're either going to explode or implode.” (Questlove, 04:47)

• Each album title was meant to address three fronts: the world, hip-hop culture, and The Roots themselves (05:10).

3. Struggles for Acceptance: Mainstream, Barbershop, and the Mixtape Circuit

• The Funkmaster Flex Litmus Test: The band’s desire for street respect was personified by longing for airplay from DJ Funkmaster Flex, who never quite bought in:

  “The big thing was like...will Flex play Silent Treatment?...he'll be like, eh, I'm not feeling it, Bruno.” (Questlove, 19:18)

• Barbershop Approval vs. Critical Acclaim:

  “In their mind, the Barbershop was the epicenter of what the approval's gonna be. And I'm aiming for getting a lead review in Rolling Stone...” (Questlove, 24:02–24:05)

• The tension between Rolling Stone coverage and authentically connecting with Black Philly listeners was a recurring theme.

4. Tour Life and Hustling Gigs

• International Strategy: The Roots spent extensive time in Europe, hustling for both recognition and financial survival, with their schedule segmented meticulously across continents (11:47–13:32).
• DIY Touring: They often played shows as a stripped-down trio (drums, MC, beatbox), learning to improvise and entertain with minimal setup (35:03–36:00).

5. Finding a New Sound: ‘Push Up Ya Lighter’ and Sampling Themselves

• Studio Experiments: At the urging of other band members, Questlove crash-learned the art of sampling (SB 1200), aspiring to become “Pete Rock by the end of the week” (24:48).
• Innovative Self-Sampling: Producer Bob Power suggests sampling themselves:

  “He suggested, well, you know, why don't you guys sample yourself?...play...get a nice decent half mix...and then...sample it and treat it like a hip hop sample.” (31:20–32:02)

• Sprite Commercial Influence: Early experimentation with harder drum sounds started with a Sprite radio ad (29:18), foreshadowing the album’s direction.

6. Critical and Fan Reception – Always Shifting

• Unending Disappointment Cycle: Every new Roots release jarred their existing fanbase while gradually building new loyalty.

  “Every album was a major disappointment to whatever the fan base was of the previous albums...That became our formula.” (47:57–49:13)

• Questlove notes that critical acclaim rarely aligned with street or barbershop recognition, resulting in the band feeling perennially undervalued by the “right channels” (44:27).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Learning Sampling Fast:

  “I was just like, dog, I need a crash course. Teach me. I want to be Pete Rock by the end of the week.” (Questlove, 24:48)

• On Fanbase Disappointment:

  “Every album was a major disappointment to whatever the fan base was of the previous albums...All the people that we won with Organics...when Do You Want More? came out...it was jarring to them. It was like, oh, you guys sound like a rap group.” (Questlove, 47:57–48:31)

• Open Mike Eagle shares his personal memories:

  “Me and two of my classmates...performed Silent Treatment really for our...choir class” (Open Mike Eagle, 14:07)

• Questlove on his musical upbringing:

  “Hip hop was...listened to under the volume like that. That was my experience of it.” (17:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:04–07:17: Album title origins, Richard Nichols’ vision, debate over titling
• 07:40–09:31: Early struggles for radio play, remix hustle, DJ Flex story
• 11:46–13:32: The grueling touring/college circuit routine and breaking into new markets
• 19:41–20:24: Flex’s thumbs-up/thumbs-down and comparing The Fugees’ success
• 24:02–25:21: Tension between barbershop and critical acclaim; Questlove’s fear of being replaced
• 28:46–32:02: “Push Up Ya Lighter”, Sprite ad, and Bob Power’s self-sampling suggestion
• 35:03–36:00: Stripped down trio shows and lessons in improvisation
• 44:09–49:13: The challenge of pleasing both street and critical audiences across albums

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Closing Thoughts

The episode offers a revealing window into the creative growing pains and identity struggles that defined Illadelph Halflife. Listeners get a relatable look at making hard choices under pressure, chasing both respect and survival, and constantly pivoting creatively. Both Open Mike Eagle and Questlove keep the tone warm, self-aware, and often humorous, making this episode essential for Roots fans, music creatives, and hip-hop students alike.

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Tune in next week for more untold Roots stories and further adventures in Illadelph Halflife.

Transcript

[A]

Audio Ladies and gentlemen, we have arrived. This is what had Happened was Season four, Episode seven, and we are now in the era of Illadelph Half Life. We've arrived at the Roots third studio album and major label sophomore effort I Gotta Tell Y', all, this is a fascinating story. I was listening to the Roots at the time when this album came out. From the outside looking in, it looked like the Roots had made a concerted effort to change their sound from live instrumentation to more traditional beats and rhymes. But in this conversation I've had with Questlove, I've gotten a completely different insight. Everybody was not on board, and that ends up being a big part of the story of this album. In this first part, hear how Funk Master Flex, Sprite Commercial and Philadelphia Barbershops played into this very, very sharp change in direction. Speaking of changing directions, I'm your host and a rapper myself. As you can hear in the theme songs, songs plural, we've produced for this season, I'm going on tour in December playing open mike Eagle Originals. I'm gonna be in Houston, Dallas, Brooklyn, Philly, DC, Boston, Orlando and Miami. Hit up MikeEagle do for details. This podcast is part of the Stony Island Audio Network, your Home for rap podcast that you can actually listen to with shows like Fatherhood's podcast, the dad Bod Rap Pod, stories about songs with Kevin Beecham and more. And with that, let's get Into It Season 4, Episode 7 Illadel Half Life. Thick as a maglite on the last album ripping the bagpipes and this is the half life the grind like the lip of a half pipe and sharp like the tip of stalactites they wasn't clones though they punching your nose bone the brutes roll tight like it's turbo in ozone no toes to price like them all on the roads though blind the devil with the bold black and gold shine travel through the you would not verse with the comm sense bomb shit. Give us five stars for the content. Push up Delighted to contend with the darkness is what had happened was open mic Eagle and Quest Love for the Illadelph stories. This is the plug to have the Roots got it all out the mu at once. This is your host, open Mike Eagle Cent Season 4 what had happened was this is part three Philadelphia half life. We keep changing the theme. It's like the anime. Something traumatic happens. Mr. Amir, how we doing today?

[B]

We're doing awesome, man.

[A]

That's good to hear, man. We're here to talk about the third Canon Roots album, man. Ill Adelf Half Life released September 24, 1996.

[B]

Yeah, man. You know, it's weird how you have associative memories with a project. And to me, the grand reveal, at least for me, in hindsight for that record, is how much effort and energy. Like, I'm now in a place now where I'm very wise and I've learned lessons.

[A]

Do wise people ever call themselves wise, though?

[B]

I might be a sage. That's, you know, like when you know gooden well, you're in your late 40s, but you still try to act like you're in your mid-30s.

[A]

Gotcha. Self aware.

[B]

I'm a student, you know, student at 30, wise at 40, and a sage at 50 and, you know, 60 on still here. Still Here. So I'll say that the lesson I've learned now with music is, you know, you always serve the song, serve the album. And I'm amazed at how good and how timely Ill adelf Half Life is, despite my many attempts to sabotage that record.

[A]

That's so interesting. Oh, I can't wait.

[B]

I can't wait.

[A]

All right, before we get into it, though, the title. Is there a story behind the title?

[B]

Ill Adolph Half Life, brainchild of my late manager, Richard Nichols.

[A]

Rest in peace to Rich.

[B]

Yeah. And I say of all of our titles, this is the one that he had an actual, like, scientific definition of this, where he was trying to say how, like, nuclear reactors could either, you know, when something's on Half Life, you're either going to explode or implode.

[A]

So, like a crossroads.

[B]

Yeah, every, every album title either refers to the state of the world, the state of hip hop culture, and the state of the roots.

[A]

So do you want more? What did that speak to?

[B]

So, you know, initially that album was gonna be called Homegrown. And again, Rich was like, every album title should have a three prong reach. And, you know, do you want more for the world? Do you want more out of hip hop culture? And the roots are like, do you want more like something else? It's probably the, the, the least condescending way to say, hey, hey, guys, we have other options. You know, it was like the least condescending way to say that. And so, yeah, Ill Adolph Half Life. I remember there was a debate I wanted to. I'm big on numbers. And so I learned this trick from Billy Idol, I believe would continue the numbers of his journey of transition.

[A]

I was wondering where that started. I didn't realize Billy Idol was doing that.

[B]

Yeah, he did. At least for me. Like a couple albums, it Was like side six, side seven, you know, So I. I always felt like albums should be volume two, volume three. So I won it. Up until the very last minute, I took the liberty of spelling Ill Adolph, Half Life, all lowercases. Probably inspired by Dream Hampton. She would only write her name in lower, lowercase. And I think I wanted to put a. A dividing line between the words half and life.

[A]

I remember seeing that a couple times, right.

[B]

And then. But I also wanted volume three. So at least in the Source review, it was like Ill Adelf Half Life volume three. But it. It just looked really confusing. And Rich was like, look, man, just. Just Illadelph Half Life. Like, Rich's job is to keep me from being driving the. The pretentious lane of, you know, dial that back a little bit. You don't have to always prove that you're the smartest guy in the room, Amir. Just let shit be so.

[A]

And shout out to our other friend who likes to write his name in lowercase, Mc Paul Barman.

[B]

Yes, Mc Paul Barman. Yes,. Absolutely.

[A]

So when you first started making music in the studio, what you wanted to do, and this is when y' all first went in to make organics, you wanted to use samples. You wanted to make what you thought was traditional hip hop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You kind of got redirected, and y' all ended up coming up with what the formula for roots music sounded like.

[B]

Now, that is so weird you said that, because now I realize that for the first three albums, it's always been.

[A]

A tug of war between.

[B]

I wanted to sample. They're like, no live. And then now we're in a place because really, Ill Adelf Half Life starts with, I would say the beginning of Ill Adelf Half Life really starts with the end of do you want more? Which is. We're really putting our eggs in the basket of Silent Treatment remixes. We tried with distortion and static and did a whole bunch of remixes. And, you know, we got college radio love. But, you know, we're really gunning for mixtape DJs, you know, with the exception of your cosmic kevs in Philly. You know, Tony Touch always showed his love, but he really. Tony Touch really wasn't putting his foot pedal to the metal at least until, like, 97, 98. There was a New York DJ named Buddha Barber. He would show his love, but, like, you know, kind of the doo wops of the world.

[A]

But here's the question. So, I mean, so they weren't really playing distortion to static, and you're talking about Silent Treatment But Proceed wasn't. They weren't bumping that really either.

[B]

Not really. And the thing was, like, we really went hard on those 12 inches, somewhere between four to six remixes per thing, because we just wanted to leave no stone unturned. And we put the most work on Silent Treatment.

[C]

When I met her, she was physically intact and mentally apt to adapt to whatever rap qualities that attract a triple X black erotic narcotic from the back. Amina, with the most melodic vocal tone. Met her on the avenue, then exchanged telephone numbers later, had a few conversations.

[B]

We couldn't. You know, the whole, like, trying to rub sticks together to try to make a spark or a flame to get something happening, it just wasn't happening for us on a level that, you know, really. It's like we need it. And that's what makes Tariq finally getting that approval from Flex 28 years into his career. That's why it makes it so poetic.

[C]

I'm helping rappers everywhere for filler death with Show Flex.

[B]

I'm glad we made contact.

[C]

My oh so know this for Combat Brain Matter contain too much data I tell a story like fingerprints and blood splatter.

[B]

You see what it is. Black door Funk Flex One take for y' all cornball niggas coming up here doing. We were living in Europe by the. By this point, you know. Cause it's either like, you either gotta go where the heat is, or you gotta come and do some politicking and shake hands and kiss some babies. And we're not going to Jack the rapper, you know, we're not going to freak Nick. And after that documentary, thank God, you know what I'm saying? So all of those conventions, those how can I be downs. And we're not doing that. The MC Battles of, like, New Music Seminar, we're not doing any of those things. And we're starting to feel like if the tree that falls in the forest doesn't make a sound.

[A]

And this is after do youo Want More? Has come out, like, this is the feeling that's prevailing.

[B]

It's. We were just. We were a niche group and, you know, our only. The only time we're really needed in America is. And, you know, it's a guarantee to stay on standby, and it's a guarantee that some rap group is going to fuck up and stand up this particular college. And they call Kara Lewis. Carol Lewis is our agent. You know, call up Kara Lewis, and I got somebody for you. Hey, guys, can you go down to Da da da Da.

[A]

Are y' all flying out from Europe to do college gigs.

[B]

No. Okay, we, we, we were wise enough to at least be home base. Springtime, there's a season.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

There's a season. Stay in America. September through October, we go to Europe. November to December. Now post things fall apart. Then I could say January and February could be Asia, slash South America, slash Australia time, because it's summer in Australia and all that stuff. And then March, I'll say March and April is cool to dip your toe in the water to see if you can do clubs and do theaters. Those are already really hard. At least with the college gigs you have a built in audience that doesn't know you. But if you perform your ass off, then you have a new fan base. So it's almost like we're forcing them against their will. Like you came for Wu Tang, but here we are, you know, arms crossed and all that stuff. And, and then summertime, from May until July, you're in Europe doing these big giant festivals and you're trying to make an impression on at least 5 to 10,000 of those people, of those hundred thousand that are there to see Jemariquay or whoever you're like opening for. And then when you come back in December, November, December, then that audience that you mean impressing on, that becomes your fan base. And so that's pretty much the, the cycle that we did for those 18 years before Fallon. Now, I will say that Silent Treatment kind of quickly, like, we put so many eggs in that basket because we.

[A]

Knew, like, thinking crossover song.

[B]

Yeah. Like, and it wasn't that intention thing, like, oh, we're gonna go pop. But I kind of felt like Silent Treatment wasn't irresistible. Cool song.

[A]

Speaking of associated memories, me and two of my classmates, one of them Allende Jean Baptiste, who you might remember being.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we all went to high school together. We had choir class and we had choir recital, and the three of us performed Silent Treatment really for our. I think it was my sophomore, junior year choir class.

[B]

That's so hard to believe, man. Cause when I tell you I'm shocked that anyone has any memories where, like, the Roots are my group. Like, the way that I listen to Bizarre Ride to the Far side, or the way that I listen to any tribe record, like, I can't imagine someone, like, voluntarily, like, taking their cassette and putting it on and listening to it.

[A]

I mean, when I got really deep into hip hop, like in the part of my journey where, like, this was right before I started rapping, because of course hip hop was around all of my life, but I never really, like, super fucked with it. I was more into like alternative rock music. Like, that shit was awesome to me. Like, I. I sit and watch 120 Minutes on MTV. Like, that was my shit.

[B]

I'm Matt Pinfield and I'm going to.

[A]

Let you know what's happening tonight at.

[B]

Midnight 11 Central for 120 minutes on MTV.

[A]

But it was one summer. My homie Mario, he gave me Common's Resurrection.

[B]

Resurrection.

[A]

Do you want more? I think the third one might have been Old Dirty's album. And I was like, okay, I'm here now. You know what I'm saying? Like, that was what did it for me.

[B]

Like, that's weird to hear it, cuz, you know, I would figure that you would have to ramp slowly. Ramp your. Like, I was there since Rapper's Delight, so I was there at the beginning of the Big Bang Theory, so.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

I'm just slowly going 20 miles per hour down this long road. But it's kind of weird that you just like, hey, what's on this floor? Like, you're getting out of this apartment.

[A]

The first rap music I ever heard. I got in a car with my mom in first grade and she was playing eazy, E, you ready to go get this money?

[B]

Leave that boy.

[A]

You strapped?

[B]

Yeah, you know it.

[A]

Let's go do this shit then. I got it all planned out. Yeah.

[B]

Shoot any motherfucker at my move.

[C]

This is a stick up. Everybody get face down.

[B]

That was your first hip hop experience.

[A]

First rap song I ever heard in my life.

[B]

Was what song was.

[A]

Was one of them terribly inappropriate songs. I think it's the one where he was robbing the bank.

[B]

And was your mom a fan?

[A]

Yeah, my mom was like a 80s party party girl.

[B]

I don't know what that's like. I don't know what it's like to live in a household where hip hop, it's not contraband.

[A]

Well, I didn't live with my mom either because she was an 80s party girl, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

So I live with her parents, Grandmama.

[A]

Right, okay.

[B]

So, right.

[A]

And so, you know, it wasn't contraband, but like, they didn't, you know, they just associated with outside doing crazy shit, so.

[B]

Nah, man. Like, hip hop was hip hop, Prince, comedy, Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, all that stuff is listened to under the, under the volume like that. That's. That was my experience of it, you know, and listening to it and en route to school where I could blast it on my headphones. But wow, that's. That's Something I never thought about. Like, I'm the first generation that discovers it, but I wonder what it is to be a baby. And your parents are into hip hop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're getting it, like, kind of in this benevolent way. Like, ooh, turn that up. That's my song.

[A]

Yeah, it was crazy.

[B]

More like, what's that shit you playing?

[A]

But my mom was, like, odd. Like, she wasn't. She didn't represent other people in her generation. Like, you know, my aunties and uncles and shit wasn't quite as into it as much as she was.

[B]

I got it, I got it, I got it.

[A]

But back to this tug of war, right? I'm very interested in that dynamic as you painted. Going from you wanting a sample to y' all finding y' all sound. And then whatever feeling y' all are having at the end of do you want more? That's leading you into changing the sound.

[B]

All right, so this is what I learned. We were in Glasgow, Scotland, and I believe that we were really putting our eggs in the basket of. Now, if you remember last episode, I told you that, you know, we signed. We signed a Geffen, a label with no hip hop experience whatsoever. They signed us in the jza. The suicide of Kurt Cobain kind of sends us into a tailspin in which we decide we're going to steal our own money and move to Europe, get a hub in London and just work our asses off there. And. And when we feel safe to come back to the States, then we'll come back to the States. So we're just doing the. The. The European circuit, and meanwhile, all those conventions are happening, and every day I'm calling like, okay, so Steve Rifkin, president of Loud Records, is going to handle the promotions, and we're using other labels, and we're just hoping that, you know, something sparks and, you know, you know, and the big. The big thing was like, you know, will. Will Flex play Silent Treatment? You see me, I'm here, New York, screaming at you at noon. And back then, the very quick thumbs up, thumbs down from Flex is Flex will say, yeah, I'm feeling this. Keeping it 100. And if Flex is not feeling it, he'll be like, eh, I'm not feeling it, Bruno. Which is, you know, even why Busted rhymes make funk mats and flexes. Yo, I feel the knees, right?

[C]

Yeah, my rhymes create life. Like the birds and the bees make funk master Flex say, yo, I'm feeling these.

[B]

You want to hear them three words like, flex, Flex update. He didn't give it to us. Yet. And then finally, after a show, you know, we called on three Way from Glasgow, and, you know, our rep guy was just like, hey, man, I tried, y'. All. But, you know, Flex is like, I don't know if I'm feeling this. And it's like I felt some sort of way because both the Fugees and us came out the gate at the same time. And he was playing nappy heads like a motherfucker.

[A]

He's playing nappy heads off the first album, the remix.

[B]

Right? You know what I'm saying? And so automatically I'm thinking like, damn, we didn't do exactly like a. I could have did a better head knot remix for Silent Treatment. Like, I'm already internally blaming myself. But essentially they're telling us, like, look, we tried three times already, and this kind of dead in the water, guys, you know? So it is what it is. We'll try next album. So then we get home in two weeks, and Richard wakes me up at like, 7:30 in the morning. He always calls me Rich, wakes up at 5 in the morning already strategizing that month's itinerary, and I'm the guy he bounces off of. So I know between 7am to like, 10am that I gotta pick up the phone and we gotta start strategy talk. And he basically is breaking to me that, you know, Tariq and Malik want to make this album more traditional. And I'm like, well, what does that mean in English? Because I always had this in the back of my mind, like, I don't know how to make a real hip hop album yet.

[A]

Cause at this point, you haven't really done that. Right, Right.

[B]

Which is why I insisted on, like. I figure at least with the organics and that stuff, I could throw myself in the water. And then by 1996, three years later, I could be a monster. But we spent so much time touring. Like, I brought a drum machine or two, but I didn't take it out the box, and none of that stuff. And now I'm being told that they want to make a more traditional hip hop album.

[A]

They didn't tell you, man.

[B]

The wonders of this group is. I mean, we are intact as a unit, but communication was never our forte. And Rich was always the hub in the center of, like, it's guaranteed that Amir's gonna quit the Roots for a month and then come home with this. Okay, give me. All right, put the reel up. Let me start drumming on what I missed, you know, that sort of thing. And so already I'm panicking because I'm like, wait, are you trying to, in a benign way, like, tell me that I'm about to get replaced in my own group?

[A]

Like, oh, okay, I see. Because, right. Since you're not confident in yourself as a traditional rap beat maker, then. Then basically it's like them telling you that you're no longer needed.

[B]

And I fell for the Kool Aid. I'm like, I thought our whole angle was like, yo, we're a live band and all that stuff. And he's like, yeah, in concert we're gonna do that. And I was like, but in the studio is where it counts. And I am a critic obsessive artist. Even if we were to get five mics, I wanna get it on my creations, not like some other beat maker's creation or my boy's creation. And, you know, then he put them on three way. And it was weird. That's probably the only time where Malik stepped to the plate assertively to, like, say, yeah, man, you know, we tried it your way last time, and you know, it didn't work. Cause, you know, in their. I feel like in their mind, the Barbershop was the epicenter of what the approval's gonna be.

[A]

That's what they're aiming at, right?

[B]

And I'm aiming for getting a lead review in Rolling Stone, getting four and a half mics in the Source. Like, I'm thinking critics critical claim is what's going to keep us from getting dropped. And so I was just like, yeah, man, we, you know, we tried it your way, so, you know, we want to try it our way now. And I didn't know what that meant. So my heart is pounding. I'm just like, all right, I got to learn real quick. I got to learn real quick. I got to learn real quick. So I think maybe I had. I had maybe like five GS in the bank. So first thing I did, I brought an SB 1200 and Kilo Saunders, our hero, formerly of Bel Bid Devoe.

[C]

Right, right, right.

[B]

And their equipment, he. I was just like, dog, I need a crash course. Teach me. I want to be Pete Rock by the end of the week. Teach me how to sample, how to chop, all that stuff. So I spent a week learning how to sample and chop. And then we kind of came with a plan because the thing was, we also had accumulated a homegrown studio unit that, you know, we jokingly called from the Star Trek reference. Did I explain the Grand Niggers on the last.

[A]

I don't think we did, but I'd love to get an explanation for that.

[B]

I remember. I believe I told the story of about when Digable Planets won their Grammy, right? And we. And that speech they gave, which instantly I was like, oh, they're about to burn a bridge and be done before they got a chance to. After they won their category, we changed the channel. This is the night we recorded Proceed. And on the. On the screen, like, there was a television monitor in the actual studio and in the control room, and Star Trek Deep Space Nine was on. I'm not like a level Roddenberry, a Trek head, you know, to be a nerd and to not be science fiction guy is one of my deepest shames of all time. But there was these characters on Star Trek Deep Space Nine called the Grand Nagas.

[A]

I didn't even know that.

[B]

And I was like, yo, are they really trying to.

[A]

Cause that's the one with the black captain, too, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

And I'm like, come on, man. Y' all really, like, am I hearing this? Are they calling themselves the Grand Nas? And we were just laughing because, like, you know, they put a special accent, like all healthy grand niggas or Nas or whatever.

[A]

Got to go.

[B]

The Negus.

[A]

He knows I'm here. Wait a minute. What's the Nagus doing in my closet? The Negus.

[B]

And so we just thought that was hilarious. So we. We decided, hey, we're going to call our production company the Grand Nagas. Which was funny until maybe the second time you go to a bank and you got to watch a very flushed, older white person, like, so do I. Should I. You should write down who's. You know, that sort of thing and start making believe.

[A]

I had a television show called the New Negro. So I saw a lot of white folks turn flush and not know what to do. New Neg. Some people are scared of a word of a scene they was not aware of.

[B]

We heard.

[A]

You believe what the media gets told you, them old ideas get blown up. Behold, a new Negro. This, that, and the third.

[B]

So by Eladol Half Life, we decided to start a new llc and we became the Grand Wizards. That's like the opposite, Right? Right.

[C]

That was.

[B]

You know, what makes us do these extreme. So in the circle was Kilo Saunders. Kilo, who's producer, this beat maker from Philly named Mel. Chaos is his name. You know, Chaos has done a lot of work for Axe. So many that I'm forgetting right now. My old age. Sorry, Mel. Myself and, you know, the members of the Roots, who are, you know, Kamal is starting to work on stuff and so I didn't know it, but it was basically going to be off to the races. So everyone's just starting to make their own beats and hear Tariq and Malik like. And I'm like, wait, do I get to say in what winds up in my own record? And so I will say the first. Now I consider albums, I talk in quarters. First quarter, second quarter, third quarter, fourth quarter. So I will say that technically the first song that we worked on was push up your lighter with Bahama Dia. With Bahama Dia.

[C]

Check it out.

[B]

Inclined to rap about facts I never fake jack shit is real like impacts 456s trends and gimmicks Couldn't face the true hearted when I first started but then few remember this anti gangster bitch sporting nils you I was playing J Styles eternal to the naked eye Derived from my mistakes of cold crushed tapes and beat breaks Technically push up your lighter the origin a push up your lighter. So during that whole silent treatment remix thing, we got a Sprite. Sprite had a campaign. You remember A tribe called quest, Obey.

[A]

Your thirst and all that?

[B]

Yeah, that whole obey your thirst thing. So we did a Sprite radio ad and I decided, you know, I named my snares, my main snare snare number one is the Dilla snare. And that's a high pitch cracky snare. My Snekin snare, which I rarely use, is more or less where I put my food and my notes and my drinks, stuff like that. All my notes. But that's my primo snare.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And that's a deep sounding snare. So I decided, well, okay, this is a Sprite commercial. So it's not on a roots album. Let me see if I. If I have another sound to me that's not this jazzy high pitched snare thing. So we did the Sprite commercial, which was.

[A]

That's a lot of liquid in there.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Embracing the cylinder can Obeying my thirst command when it's too much to withstand Cause man, summer got me in a pool my sweat Time to rearrange this whole set to get cool I'm on the brink thinking I need a chill drink to replenish Then we'll drink Sprite until it's finished. Relaxing the mind Taking off the summer edge in emergencies first obey what your.

[A]

Thirst says that was hard.

[B]

Damn, Tariq sounds like he's 12.

[A]

He did sound mad.

[B]

You could always tell what I'm listening to based on what winds up. Because again, we're not traditional songwriters. Not like I'm waking Up at night. Like, I have a vision, you know, I just go to the studio and whatever the. The accumulation of everything I've been listening to that week is going to come out in the wash. So, you know, I knew that if we got a really good mix now, what. That was a rough. A rough mix.

[A]

But now that didn't sound like a sample there, right? So that's just. Or. Or somebody playing the keys. And.

[B]

Yeah, it was. Yeah, yeah, it was us. So I kept stressing to Bob Power, like, yo, like, I want to sound like. And I kept playing, like, Primo's low drums and all that stuff. And he suggested, well, you know, why don't you guys sample yourself? So this is where the. The. The. The first seed of. All right, so we're going to play, and then when we're done, we'll get a nice decent half mix to it, make sure it's flat. And then we're going to take that and then put it on that. And then we're going to sample it and treat it like.

[A]

Treat it like a record.

[B]

Yeah, treat it like a hip hop sample. And so I'll say that we start with Push up your Lighter. I definitely know the second song. So the second song, we're still in that mode of such and such group fucks up and can you guys come and do this show at this college? You know, we're the dependable homecoming group or the, you know, Spring fling group or the college. But we got called to do it was a call for Atlanta. Now this is 95. We're not rolling in the dough yet. And we officially closed the budget on do youo Want More, and it's gonna.

[A]

Take a while for them to open up for the next.

[B]

And if you remember, the prime reason why we chose Geffen was if you make album number one, you gotta do two and three. So we would've probably gotten dropped by.

[A]

Mercury based on sales of do youo Want More?

[B]

Yeah, we did. You know, now we're gold. It went. It went slow gold seven years ago. But it kind of teetered out at. We were a 350 group. So it was like, with the critical acclaim. And we made every year endless in the past job, like all those important critical things. And our live show and selling 350 was like, okay, it was respectable. Let's see what they do the next record. So here's the thing. We got a call for a gig in Atlanta. It wasn't enough money to fly us all down there and backline and all that stuff. We Weren't at that level yet. However, we did have a Pathfinder via that deal thing with Wendy Goldstein. Like, you know, we want apartments, some cars, and you know, so we had a Pathfinder and Rich was like, okay, how can I freak this? Tell you what, Rahzel Amir and Tariq has a trio. So clap your hands what he's doing. Come on, come on. And I was like, wait, no bass? No keyboard? He's like, no, let's, let's go. Rich is always looking for angles. And, you know, Rich is the kind of dude that like looks at a group like Deerhoof and be like, remember when you guys were that good? Like, you know, like Deerhoof is a group that just, you know, plays with half a drum set, a broken cymbal, not even a chair. They sit on crates and they whip your ass in concert. And meanwhile I got to have like a Neil Pert 49 piece drum set or whatever. So all I remember was we had a Far side gig in Philadelphia that Tuesday. So I was like, so we're going to drive in the Pathfinder to Atlanta, hopefully in a day.

[A]

Yeah, that's a long drive.

[B]

He was like, we could make it in 17 hours, do the gig, take a nap off or whatever, and then come back in time for the Far side. So here's the weird thing. We, he, Rich went the back roads and this is before GPS, so I mean, he was doing 100 miles per hour. So we actually got to Atlanta maybe like 12 hours.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

We were not law abiding citizens when it came to, like driving. So we did the gig and you know, taught us a lot also about improv. Like, could we make a show good with just a beatboxer, a drummer and a rapper for 90 minutes? And that really taught us a lot about improvisation and not fake it till you make it. But that's. But the show actually came off to the point where Rich was like, not.

[A]

For nothing, but sometimes that's gonna be what it is.

[B]

We could rule the world with just you as a trio. But, you know, it's like we're a band. So we actually, we had a day off. And I think Rich wanted to make sort of a political connection or a political move. I'm sorry, I don't mean with politics. I'm talking in street terms, politicking. And basically he was like, let's go to DARP Studios.

[A]

Where is that?

[B]

So DARP Studios used to be first. It was Bobby Brown's Boss Tone Studios. Bobby was like the first modern artists Before Ellie and Babyface came and set up shop in Atlanta. Okay, Bobby, I mean, no, no offense to, you know, the people Brysons of the world, whatever. I'm talking about, like new blood.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Bobby was the first to come to Atlanta. Really plan his, you know, feet there and built a studio. He built Bostown Studios with all that don't be cruel money, and then he winds up selling it to Dallas Austin. Gotcha 94, you know, so that's where Dallas is producing, like all the Lafay stuff. And you know, all that's where they're recording Gotcha. So I think if anything, Rich just wanted us to put our face in the place and see what we can come up with in six hours. So I remember going to DARP Studios. Fishbone had just signed to Darp. And I remember the lead singer of Fishbone.

[A]

Oh, Angelo.

[B]

Yes, yes. Thank you. Angelo Moore. The great legendary Angelo Moore. Angela Moore is. Is in the hallway with a new. It's not a far feesa. It's what. What they use on the theme to Star Trek.

[A]

The Themin.

[B]

He has a brand new theremin.

[A]

He loves that.

[B]

He's literally like. Right. But this is when he first got it. And so I don't know if it's like performative craziness or whatever, but he's like in the reception area and he's looking like he's doing like the karate kid pose and all that stuff. And all I want to be is like, yo, man, your first EP changed my life. But he's like, one second he's come join me. So I'm like. I'm like in the circle with him and oh, this is great. Hey, man, big fan, you know. So all I know is that it's the three of us and we're in the smallest room. I remember Monica and Dallas were in studio A in his room. Never got to meet them. Fishbone was doing that whatever their Tim Choriz Badass or whatever the name of that album was. Their first non Columbia record.

[A]

I see.

[B]

So Joy is there and they're working in studio B and we're in studio C and we Panic was the song that we worked on.

[C]

I woke up in the darkness at 12:17 to shots and sirens look out the window window Peep the high beams now they searching the cops looking for the person that pulled the trigger Medical figures is nursing the kid that got shot Some innocent octave were front to flip the rock on the McKee street block I try to tell him to stop Cause it was ghetto red hot Similar to the blood.

[B]

Now, there was drums there, there was Offender Rhodes there, and there was Razel with the microphone. And is the.

[A]

Is the rose backwards in Panic? Is it reversed?

[B]

Yeah, I had to pull all the. You know, because I'm without, like. Like, I'm not a traditional keyboard player or bass player, whatever. So I'm just. I'm good at textures and that sort of thing. So, you know, I'm just pulling all the tricks. I know, like what you want to do. Reverse the reels. And I'm, like, playing backwards and doing all this scary stuff. So we worked on Panic. So at the very beginning of Villa Delft, I felt like I had the upper hand, at least in terms of, okay, I got a good song off. So my vision will be like, I planted my flag. And, you know, this song will sort of guide how the album sounds.

[C]

Of the flat your mom's rented.

[B]

It's.

[C]

No one expect that from you. Cause you was timid fucking with them cats from outside city limits. Funny how this whole thing changed in augmented. Yo, dig it.

[B]

Panic.

[C]

None of this is ever granted. Drowning in a nightmare. Stranded, you know what I'm saying?

[A]

Push up your lighter. You at least have the idea for. And then panic. Y' all did.

[B]

And then panic. And then literally by the time I got back, Kilo had taught Kamal how. So Kamal had an ASR 10, Chaos had his NPC 2. Kilo was still using his. All of his post Belvedevo stuff, and they're already off to the races. So by the time we literally get home, Kamal's figured out how to make sections, And they're doing the same thing. They're going through old reels, old songs that we never used, sampling them.

[A]

Oh, so most of the sampling is Yalls playing. It's not like, records. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So the whole. Yeah. Which, you know, the funny thing about. The funny thing about Section is the first gold record I ever. So, you know when you're, like, bringing joints back to the crib or whatever, and you're trying to, like, you know, figure out, like, well, you. I have no awards. I have no nothing. So the first award I've ever gotten was. Well, first of all, Redman samples section at the. Whatever the interlude is at the beginning of Muddy waters, he samples.

[C]

§ somebody like the Fuse. So I can bring bad news to all these crews who can't NBA jam with the shoes that double shot Hennessy got my mind tripping Drunk enough to start a campaign on ass kicking with my KE who give assist like Scott.

[B]

Pimping Then more famously, oh, N N N sim Sema who got the keys? Who Am I? The who am I Song samples.

[C]

Section. Who got the keys to.

[B]

My.

[C]

Sugar or can I make love to a rush? Pass me the keys to my truck over.

[B]

My. So both of those records went.

[A]

Gold. And so publishing, we got.

[B]

Our. We got our plaques with that. So, you know, girls be coming over like, oh, you. You produce Red.

[C]

Man. And you worked on.

[B]

Umar. Yeah, you know, we worked on it. Like, it was so embarrassing, like, you know, to finally get your own gold record, like, in 99 was like, take those down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Finally. I couldn't wait to take those off the.

[A]

Wall. So quick question about section though, before we move on. Cause section wasn't an official single, but I feel like I used to hear.

[B]

It. It.

[A]

Was. Oh, it was.

[B]

Okay. We put it on the B side of.

[A]

Clones. B side, okay. So I. Because I felt like I heard it on underground radio all the time now. § It's like a dark song, right? And it made me think when I. Especially when I go back and listen to the album and. Because the whole album kind of has this kind of, like, wintertime feel for me. And it made me think of, like, all we got is us from Onyx or like Wrath of the Math from J Ru. Like, these albums that had this kind of this winter heaviness.

[B]

About.

[A]

Them. Yeah. The rap. The rap. The rath of the Math. The math. And I wonder, like, what do you think it was about that time where all those albums were coming out that had that.

[B]

Heavy feel? So here's the thing. When we had that, we tried it.

[A]

Your way. Yeah.

[B]

That concept. Now we're gonna do it our way. I feel that a big part of the Chip on the Shoulder was, for starters, you know, Tariq and Malik. And frankly, all of us, me included, thought that the right channels were gonna recognize that these two were, like, lyrically, like some incredible ass MCs. And the amount of lyrical chin ups, push ups, sprints, working in the gym that they did on the chance that, okay, you guys gotta go to New York. You're gonna do Da Da Da's mixtape. Like, there were no callers with the exception of Stretch and Bobbito. And even that we would listen to Stretch and Bobbito. And it was always like, wait a minute, I've heard that rhyme before. Wait a minute. He's kicking his verse from Block from.

[A]

His.

[B]

Record. Yeah. Like, we were just under.

[A]

The impression that everybody.

[B]

Was freestyling. Everyone in New York was like, mental level, freestyling so thus they prepared as much. And it was like Rudolph the Red nosed Reindeer. Like, we couldn't get in any reindeer games. So I think, like, I feel like lyrically, Tariq and Malik were like, we were code switching on. Do you want more? But the thing is, is that that's them too. We're nerds, but we're also. I mean, I'm not necessarily street associated, you know what I'm saying? But I grew up around it and I know what time it is. But I think for them, it's like, we want to play some shit in the barbershop that isn't qt. Like, mellow, my man or say.

[A]

What man? Right, right, right.

[B]

Right, right. You know, and some edgier shit. And Malik. And the basic Malik agreement was, you know, he left the group, but at least studio wise, he was still gonna be there. And Philly was just. It depends on what your circle and what your environment is. I spent a lot of times, like, my free times were going to the lollapaloozas of the world on off times or going to this particular club or whatever. So, you know, my thing was more. I was more akin to your musical taste than anything. Like, I'm going to rock shows, going to, you know, crossing off a lot of bucket list of like, oh, Joni Mitchell's in town, let me go. And not to mention, man 95, 96, man, we are. It's Wu Tang.

[C]

Is unavoidable. Scriptures hit the body like sword or shoddy like my head naughty and my nose piece snotty a hottie that whole probably burned like the dentist of Mugabe for red Ain't nothing.

[B]

Fortunate here. And so just that level of seriousness. Yeah, we. We got like Illidol, Half Life got so much critical acclaim, and only Greg takes review of it in the Village Voice did he express disappointment that he felt like we sold out. Like, and he called. I remember the byline of the review was like the Roots to woo or not.

[A]

To.

[B]

Bop. Whoa. And that's the thing. It's like, I know the perception now is of the Roots, but every album was a major disappointment to whatever the fan base was of the previous albums. All the, all the people that we won with Organics alone, just that local Philly thing. The poets, the coffee shop, chicks and white. Like, all those people, like, when do you want more? Came out. That was jarring to them. It was like, oh, you guys sound like a rap group. Like, Distortion Ecstatic was like, ew, this.

[A]

This rap. They were expecting something more jazzy, melodic, like RB sounded almost exactly.

[B]

Okay very. And so then once the do you want more crowd got used to that, then I remember like Tariq's ex girlfriend, the the one who Silent Treatment was based on ew 5th dynasty. Like oh y'. All. Y' all trying to be wu tang it. 5th dynasty and all that stuff. And it was. And believe it or not, things fall apart. Same thing. And those I definitely know these are our most critically acclaimed records. But even then, like it that was a hard sell. Like, oh, what's what's wrong with the drum sounding all off these quirky beats and that sort of thing? So it's just like each demographic had a beef and then it took two years in between records and they got used to it. So that became like.

[A]

Our formula. Dearest audience, we're leaving it there for now, but tune in next week for further adventures of Illadelph.

[B]

Half Life. Stony.