Illadelph Halflife Part 2

Summary

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What Had Happened Was — Season 4, Episode 8: Illadelph Halflife Part 2

Podcast: What Had Happened Was
Host: Open Mike Eagle (Stony Island Audio & Talkhouse)
Guest: Ahmir 'Questlove' Thompson
Date: November 29, 2023

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the creative process and inner turmoil behind The Roots’ third studio album, Illadelph Halflife. Questlove, with candid honesty, discusses the making of classic singles like “Clones”, collaborations with Common, the evolution of their live stagecraft, and the intense competitive spirit with peers—particularly shaped by events involving the Fugees. The episode provides a raw, behind-the-scenes look at the drive, insecurity, and ambition that fueled The Roots during a pivotal moment in hip hop’s golden era.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Formation and Tensions Behind “Clones”

• Questlove’s Ego and Insecurity:
  Questlove openly talks about his inner struggle during the album-making process:
  "I probably spent more time trying to sabotage the record than serving the record. Now, if the brain I had now was if I were able to transport myself back to 95, 96... Rule number one would have been serve the song." (02:31)
• Million Man March Anecdote:
  He recalls missing the Million Man March due to a bus scam and instead being sonically haunted by the creation of “Clones” by Kelo upstairs, feeling left out of the process.
  "Inside, I’m like, holy fucking shit... But then on the other side, it’s like, I had nothing to do with this song. What the fuck am I? I’m a fraud." (05:20)
• Technical Process:
  Questlove discusses drum triggering before the era of digital beatmaking:
  "We could take a part of the song and trigger it that way... You best believe I purposely went there to do that to remind people that human beings are here." (06:45)

2. Cover Art Mix-Ups and ‘No Frills’ Confusion

• Album Cover Inspiration:
  The 12” cover was modeled after No Frills products at Philly’s Pathmark grocery:
  "I just wanted to make the album cover reminiscent of the foods that we would buy." (08:37)
• Name Confusion with Another Band:
  Ali Shaheed Muhammad believed Questlove was dissing a band called No Frills; it was a genuine misunderstanding borne out of disconnected hip hop bubbles.
  "I grew up on No Frills... They were like, not for nothing, dog. We. We never heard of y’. All." (10:08)

3. Building the Roots Family and Common’s Move

• Common’s Integration:
  At a career crossroads, Common gravitates to the Roots' Philadelphia scene, seeking a new sound and creative haven:
  "Common is starting to think about his future as well... He wants to move to New York." (12:51)
• Early Collaborations:
  The tracks “You and I Verse at War” and “Episodes” emerge from this period (12:29–13:20).
• Roots' Creative Volume:
  The Roots are described as hyper-prolific, recording hundreds of sketches per album:
  "We are a 500 song recording unit... in our Tonight Show database... up to about easily 9,000 songs." (20:22)

4. The Philadelphia Blizzards and True Crime

• Snowstorm Sessions:
  The group is snowed in during the blizzard of 1995-96 and chooses to keep working. Malik B turns up late at night with a friend—later realized to be Snook Nooka, a local rapper and (as it turns out) bank robbery getaway driver.
  "So literally, all I know is that when we get to the end. So he shouts out Snook Nooker... Like, wait, did he just shout out Snook Nooka?" (26:31)
• Malik B’s Recording Style:
  Malik’s unique process:
  "Malik is like, pretty much after this point... showing up at the studio at four in the morning... Like, what the hell? Like, one of the Things Fall Apart songs was for Erykah [Badu]..." (27:46)

5. Studio Competition, Textures, and the Arrival of Jazzy Fat Nastees

• Switching Up Production Tactics:
  Instead of collaborative jam sessions, the Roots become competitive, individually building tracks like “No Alibi”, using whatever musical tricks at their disposal—especially vocal textures from guest singers and background players.
  "We’re not—it’s not like, Do You Want More? where let’s get in a room together and let’s play. It’s now competitive. Like, I’m coming alone and I’m going to conduct my own sessions, but I’m not that well versed on basic keyboards..." (31:30)
• Jazzy Fat Nastees’ Involvement:
  Questlove is enamored with the group after hearing their demo and brings them into the Roots orbit, laying groundwork for the emerging Philly neo-soul scene.
  "It’s as if someone put En Vogue in a time machine... I wish the world heard the seven songs that I heard." (16:03)

6. The Fugees, Competitive Drive, and Roots’ Stagecraft Evolution

• Co-headlining Tour with the Fugees:
  The Roots join a tour with Goody Mob and the Fugees, just before the Fugees’ The Score blows up.
  "She’s singing... and she’s killing the verse. Yeah, it was just like, video was hard." (33:49)
• Mutual Influence:
  The Roots’ “Hip Hop 101” medley idea is (supposedly) adopted by the Fugees, spurring healthy but fierce competition.
  "That show had an effect on them... You know, they doing Hip Hop 101 live, too." (38:41)
• Questlove’s Realization on Live Shows:
  Feedback from John Schechter (The Source) helps Questlove retool the Roots’ live approach for maximum impact:
  *"He’s like, ‘yo, you guys are good, but... remember, your audience is hip hop heads... incorporate that into your show.’" (35:36)
  • The Roots responded with a relentless rehearsal regimen and full set conversion to hip hop covers, pushing their reputation as one of the best live bands in hip hop.

7. Lasting Impact and Chasing Legacy

• Fugees’ Meteoric Rise:
  Tour with the Fugees ends with them headlining massive venues, motivating Questlove to think long term:
  "They went from like co headlining to headlining to cover Rolling Stone... I don’t know that that lit a fire under my ass for the fourth quarter." (45:16)
• Questlove on Legacy and The Roots’ Place in History:
  The pressure is no longer just to contribute to the album, but to cement a place in hip hop legacy:
  "For me, instead of like fighting for my position... I’m now thinking about fighting for my position in history." (45:18)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Questlove on his own creative paranoia:
  "My ego wouldn’t allow me to get kicked out of my own unit." (07:58)

• Open Mike Eagle noting the roots' enigmatic internal process:
  "From the outside in, you just... there’s no real understanding of the division of labor or production inside The Roots. Especially because we knew y' all as a live band, so the whole thing was we didn't know who did whatever, right?" (29:07)

• Questlove on meeting Common:
  "Common smelled like a scene, a movement, a brewing. And he wanted part of it. He wasn’t... he was like an orphan without a crew." (19:30)

• Questlove on stagecraft and audience memory:
  "The novelty of some band members playing shit that, you know, something familiar... was like the Men In Black flashy thing. It made the entire audience forget everything." (35:36)

• Questlove, on the Fugees' adaptation of their live style:
  "I said, ‘yo, no more studio stuff. We gotta work on our live show. And I was just like, I don't care what. We gotta make sure...we are gonna come for blood. Like, we’re gonna kill the show.’" (40:11)

• Questlove on his ambitions:
  "I'm now thinking about fighting for my position in history. So now I'm like, okay, I'm gonna put one foot in building Questlove safe haven and my right foot still with The Roots." (45:18)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:08–02:31: Introducing the episode, “Clones” origin, Questlove’s artistic anxiety
• 03:44–07:48: The Million Man March, “Clones” production
• 08:08–10:08: “No Frills” album cover, accidental beef
• 12:29–15:07: Common's involvement, Roots’ early collabs
• 20:22–21:18: The hyper-prolific Roots recording process
• 21:50–27:46: The Philly blizzard, Malik B's recording, and real-life crime crossovers
• 31:26–32:33: “No Alibi,” team shifts and vocal textures with Jazzy Fat Nastees
• 32:46–35:07: Roots co-headline with Fugees, adjusting stagecraft
• 35:36–40:11: Hip Hop 101, setlist reinvention, and competitive drive
• 41:26–45:17: Ms. Lauryn Hill, Roots Picnic, reflecting on relationships and growth
• 45:18–49:50: Legacy, LA show at House of Blues, penultimate moments

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Final Notes

The episode paints a vivid picture of an iconic album’s creation amid personal insecurity, crew rivalries, and a rapidly shifting hip hop landscape. Questlove’s storytelling is both self-effacing and insightful, openly dissecting his creative paranoia, the push and pull between collaboration and competition, and the outside pressures that honed The Roots’ legendary live shows and lasting legacy.
For the full experience, listen to the next episode, which promises more on the Roots' journey through Illadelph Halflife and beyond.

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Transcript

[Open Mike Eagle]

Welcome to what had happened was season four, episode eight, Illadelph Half Life Part two. In this episode, we get the stories behind Clones for one certified classic underground roots legendary single. We also hear how the Roots linked up with Common and how the Fugees push them to perfect their live show. Speaking of live shows, I'm going on tour very soon doing open mic Eagle rap music. I'll be in Houston, Dallas, Brooklyn, Philly, dc, Boston, Hampden, Connecticut, Miami and Orlando, all starting in about a little over.

[Questlove]

A little over a week.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Peep mikeeagle.net for details. This is the Stony Island Audio Network, the home of hip hop shows you can actually listen to. And with that, let's get into season four, episode eight, Illadelph Half Life Part two of three. Yes, there's one more Illadelph Half Life episode after this one. Halfway through the podcast, Illadelph Half Life.

[Questlove]

Don'T give a damn Pick up a.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Flashlight dick as a maglite on the last album ripping the bagpipes and this is the half Life the grind like the lip of a half pipe and sharp like the tip of stalactites they wasn't clones though they punch in your nose bones Roots roll tight like it's turbo in ozone no toes to price like them all on the roads though blind the devil with the bold black and gold shine travel through the you were not versed with the comm sense the bomb shit give us 5 stars for the content Push up the lighter to contend with the darkness since what happened was open mic Eagle and quest love for the Illadelph stories this is the plug to have the roots got it all out the mud once up. This is your host, open mike Eagle Cent Season 4 what it happened was this is part three Philadelphia half life we keep changing the theme. It's like the anime. Something traumatic happens. Well, let me ask you this. Since y' all knew y' all were coming into this album with a different sound, and y' all had had the experience already of coming out with a sound that alienated Yalls former audience, did you have any sort of, like, strategy on how to roll out this new sound? Like, I know Clones was the first single, right?

[Questlove]

Yes, you know, and that's what leads me to the beginning statement that I told you. Like, wow. It's a wonder that we came out with this really cohesive, timeless artistic achievement when I probably spent more time trying to sabotage the record than serving the record. Now, if the brain I had now was if I were able to transport myself back to 95, 96. As I'm making this, rule number one would have been serve the song. And when you serve the song, you're going to serve the album. But for me, it was about my ego. Well, am I getting fired from my own group? Like, every day I'm waking up in duress of am I getting replaced? So let's skip to October. In October, I'm in my house. This is Million Man March weekend. So Malik is like, yo, blah, blah, blah, Barbershop. There's a bus that's going to go to D.C. it's $28. Da da da da. Meet us down there. We'll go to Millie Man March.

[Open Mike Eagle]

So Philly's what, like three hours?

[Questlove]

Two hours?

[Open Mike Eagle]

Okay.

[Questlove]

And so we get to blah, blah, blah, barbershop in south Philly at 6 in the morning, and there's no bus.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Okay.

[Questlove]

It's like, ah, man, this is a scam. Like, so I went home, and now it's like 7am I get breakfast from the spot down the street, and I'm gonna watch the Million man March on TV. You know, I fall asleep. Itis a long TV show too. I fall asleep at like, like, 8:30 in the morning. And, yo, I hear these six notes playing. The thin walls that are like, above me. And I keep hearing the key of F. And for the next 14 hours, all I hear above me is while I'm watching the Million Man March.

[Lauryn Hill]

Good evening from Washington, where the heart of the Capitol has been filled today with African American men.

[Questlove]

A huge crowd, hundreds of thousands, young.

[Lauryn Hill]

And old, from all corners of the country.

[Questlove]

Finally, at 10pm Keel is like, yo, come up. And I'm like, okay. And he plays it for me, and he's playing it loud.

[Lauryn Hill]

First of all, let's talk about these ill capers and fly ass fronting that now caught vapors. Niggas run up on you with guns snatching papers out loud. Body chalk is how they would scrape y' all from off the pavement.

[Questlove]

Now inside, I'm like, holy fucking shit. Like, if there's ever the sound of just aggressive, you're gonna notice us motherfuckers, like, grab you by the lapel. This song is that. But then on the other side, it's like, I had nothing to do with this song. What the fuck am I? I'm a fraud.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Well, here's the question. And then maybe you're gonna get to this. The drum rolls. That's in it. Was that already in it or did you add that?

[Questlove]

It's already in it. Oh, Shit. Okay, so here's the deal. No, no, no. But okay, so I exaggerate. I exaggerated. I learned what triggering was now, even though that was a break. But Kelo also taught us how to take pre existing samples. And this is way before Pro Tools. Well, no, I mean, it's before, like, reason and, you know, like fruity. Like post fruity loop online kind of beat making. So we could take a part of the song and trigger it that way. I mean, I could have easily. Because this is what I did with what they do too. Like, I could. We could have easily just played it by hand and been like, yeah, I played the drums. So. But it was like, no, we got to do it specifically so it could be authentically us or whatever. And so I knew even though it was slightly off in his version, you're really sharp with your listening anytime when something is slightly off. You best believe I purposely went there to do that to remind people that human beings are here. You know what I'm saying? So. Yes, but I also did it, like, behind their back. So they're probably finding out right now, like, seven hours into the mix to Bob Power, like, hey, do me a favor. I'm gonna set this up real quick and trigger the snare part. So what I want to do is just slightly bring him back. And it's always like, Rich's dad, you know, when that. When the. I could tell in his head, it's like, would Rich approve of this or not? And, you know, I gotta be like, yeah, this is how we want to do it. This is how it's done. And so it's like, okay, and the assistant has to set up all these things or whatever. And it's. I could have easily just did it with my hands and, like, delayed it. But it's like, all right, get the right snare. And then. And no one's documenting it. So it's like, you know, so, yes, I triggered clones, but it's still the sounds of that break.

[Open Mike Eagle]

I see.

[Questlove]

All right. But to me, my ego wouldn't allow me to get kicked out of my own unit.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Yeah.

[Questlove]

So, yeah, we did clones. The funny thing about clones. So there was, you know, when we did the 12 inch cover. Okay, so in the Tri State area, there's a supermarket chain called pathmark. And Aisle 8 and Aisle 9 are the no frills part, where it's like the local Pathmark brand of whatever, like, generic. Mom, I went Captain Crunch. No, you can't have Captain Crunch, but you have these. No frill Crunch.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Yeah, Crunch Captain and whatever.

[Questlove]

Right? It's still the same thing, but it's like, you know. And so I just wanted to make the album cover reminiscent of the foods that we would buy. But I didn't realize that there was a live band that Ali Shahid Muhammad was about to start working with called no Frills. You know, it's like between sucker MCs and. When did MCs go out of style? Like, let's say, like, 2002.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Okay?

[Questlove]

So there's a whole period of hip hop where it's like, who. Who's the proverbial. Who's the pronoun you that we're singing about?

[Open Mike Eagle]

Right.

[Questlove]

You know, it's just the default stylist, right? So these guys actually took it to heart. So one of the first calls I ever got from a peer in the rap game is Ali Shahid Muhammad, get outta here. And, you know, he's calling, like, peacemaker, peace broker. Like, hey, do you guys have beef with no Frills? And I'm thinking he's asking, like, am I making fun of people who can't afford Chef Boyardee? So they're using the no Frill thing. And I was like, no. I grew up on no Frills. Like, I've used that product, you know, all my life. And he's like, huh? I said, you're asking am I making fun of people that use no Frills or whatever? And he's like, no. So it was like a whole who's on first Confusion thing. And three minutes into it, he's explained to me that, no, I have a group that's a live band like y', all, called no Frills and da da da, da da.

[Open Mike Eagle]

So there's a lot of reasons for him to think that it was. Yeah, intentional.

[Questlove]

Ah, dog. Which is the worst answer for their ego was like, I never heard of y'. All. Which is the same answer we got from Nappy Roots. We're like, yo, for real? Like, y' all couldn't think of a more imaginative name? Nappy Roots and Strictly Roots. And they were like, not for nothing, dog. We. We never heard of y'. All. And I'm like, what the. Like. But it goes down that way. That's true. You could be in your bubble. So I'll say that, you know, clones just sounded too incredible for me to deny. But I instantly just started panicking, like, fuck, man. Like, I'm about to get ousted out of my own group. So I'll say that section came, then Clones came, and then Kilo just started rolling them one by one. Concerto over Desperado. That's hard. Yeah, and that's the thing. It's hard. And then I'm just seeing my little panic dreams just like, melt away. So then I decided to switch. Like, Richard Pryor has this joke in which he is like, I joined whatever gang. Like, whatever side was winning. That's the gang I joined. I was in every game.

[Lauryn Hill]

They had about five.

[Questlove]

I was in all of them.

[Lauryn Hill]

Whichever one was winning, this is my side.

[Questlove]

Cause I wasn't fighting shit. So I was like, all right, well, Keelo's not helping my cause out because he's going out for self trying to get some beats and so you can get more money. So let me get with. With Chaos with Mel. So I'll say the beginning of the second quarter, we took advantage of the one hip hop peer that. I mean, people dug us, but not to the point where they're spending the night at our cribs and, you know, like, kicking it with us. And that person was Common.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Oh, you and I verse at war, right?

[Lauryn Hill]

Get on the mic Talk about cars and clothes Sounding like hoes ain't been exposed to the foes the most disciples I'm from the state that is ill the raps on a man rotated down the field Just say what I feel get it off my bird will come.

[Questlove]

So I'll say that in the dead of winter. And this is. We're now creeping into like late 95, like around November, December. Common is starting to think about his future as well. Like, should I change my sound? He wants to move to New York. You know, I don't know what issues that he had with Deion during that time period in. In terms of, like, what they're going to do on the next album.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Now is this post one day at all makes sense.

[Questlove]

No, it's pre.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Pre.

[Questlove]

Okay, so he's coming to lay a verse on our thing. But I think he's also seeing. Cause he came to those shows, you know what I mean? So it's almost like, okay, they have a future. They seem to have a future that doesn't require them to. I'll give you a good example. So do you remember, I don't know if you remember how jarring it felt when Mike Geronimo came out with Master ic. Check it out.

[Lauryn Hill]

I'm so high, you so high I'll be getting money to the day that I die.

[Questlove]

And then a year later, he came out with this joint from Puffy sampling Manona Hendricks.

[Lauryn Hill]

Keep it moving Keep it moving. Come on and keep it moving. Ask yourself can you ball like me? There nothing that an amateur could try to see. Even host with the most Step carefully around me.

[Questlove]

Years later I'm like, oo, that song was classic. But I also remember like ah, damn Master ic really? And then you remember when Caris one did a song with Puffy?

[Open Mike Eagle]

Yeah.

[Questlove]

Step into the world remix.

[Lauryn Hill]

See the KRS and the buff daddy. See the young, black and famous rich like Maddie. With the power and the knowledge at our fingertips.

[Questlove]

Like I think Common was thinking like.

[Open Mike Eagle]

He was going to have to do that to survive.

[Questlove]

Yeah. And he didn't want to have to do that. Cuz he the first. If you remember the first single on one day, it all makes sense. He had that in his pocket where it's like, yeah, you got to do something that's radio friendly, that'll get on radio. Whatever. Reminded me of Seth Drifting.

[Lauryn Hill]

All the memory brought forth from a fifth of Hennessy.

[Questlove]

So I think he was also just coming to Philly to sniff and see what's up. We were starting to build the myth of, of it when we shot the Proceed 2 video with Roy Ayers.

[Open Mike Eagle]

God, that video, that whole song is. That's. That's probably my favorite Root songs. Proceed.

[Questlove]

Mine too. So when we shot that video, we shot it on top of the Tommy Boy building and it was freezing cold. So we would only come on the video rooftop when it was time to shoot. But we would just hang inside the office as a Tommy Boy. And I saw these four girls like plastered on the wall like a poster. And I was like, well, who's that? And they're like, oh, that's, you know, J. Swift from the florist side. That's his new group called the Jazzy Fat Nasties. Don't need the house, the picket fence to show the world that we connect don't need a church. Someone played me their demo and it was the most. When I tell you, like I don't know if. Because you told me. You came so late to hip hop. To hear Bizarre Ride to the far side in 1992 was one of the most mind blowing experiences. Like, wait, someone is zanier than De La Soul. They're from California and they have fun and they're crazy and they're humorous and they can rhyme good and they have like live and like they just open up a whole nother world. It's as if someone put En Vogue in a time machine 10 years earlier and made the same type of record. Like their debut album, which Never came out. And one of my biggest regrets in my career, like, yes, I know we brought the Jazzies to our stable. I mean, Mercedes married rich and, you know, they are sort of the staple of the whole Black Lily jam session myth that spawned off all these record deals and groups or whatever. But I wish the world heard the seven songs that I heard. Jay Swift was breaking every rule almost in a way that Dilla was the way that I stopped in my tracks when I first heard of Dilla track, like he was taking well known breakbeats and flipping them in ways that I never knew you could do. So. And you know, they did one song. Do you remember Skipped My Loop by De La Soul where they put on I really Should Go the Christmas song and like the record skipping. Yeah.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Hello.

[Questlove]

You have now stopped on the third floor three feet high and rising. And now skip to my loop, skip to my loop, skip to my loop, skip to my loop. Like they were singing like, skip records and like, just breaking rules that an R and B group I never knew could do. So it's like I want them on my team. So instantly I reached out to dawn of the Jazzies and, you know, back and forth and whatnot. And we flew them in on our budget. And once they came to Philly, they just never left the crib. They started living in my house. So common smelled like a scene, a movement, a brewing. And he wanted part of it. He wasn't, you know, he was like an orphan without.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Yeah.

[Questlove]

A crew.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And he wanted to move to New York Post native. Kind of right before. Right before Pies comes out saying it's reinstated.

[Questlove]

Right, Exactly. But he was there for that, too. Yeah, he was on the side of which team was winning. A meteor has more right than my people who'll be wasting time screaming who they've hated. That's why the native tongues has officially been reinstated. So chaos would take again. Roots, jams or whatever. Take Kamal's roads and all that stuff. So that's where you and I verse came into play. That's where episodes came into play, mind you. Also, yes, 20 songs are on Ill Adolph Half Life, but We are a 500 song recording unit.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Sketches per album.

[Questlove]

I mean, dog, we could knock out 10 joints. Like, I'll put it this way, in our Tonight show database of what I call sandwiches, I think we're up to about easily 9,000 songs. Like, literally, it's here. I'll see you.

[Open Mike Eagle]

So why do y' all even make new ones?

[Questlove]

Like, just to give you like 1, 2, 3. That's one song. This is one song, another song. Like, literally just don't switch it. Don't switch it. And you hear me as a coach, like cursing out. So, yeah, it's. I think the general rule is like never go past 15 minutes and it's bare element unmixed. Also, if it's something there, things like.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Take it and refine it, move on.

[Questlove]

And then I'll go back to. And then we could perfect it and make it to a song. So that was second quarter, third quarter. A very interesting tale. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but. So Philadelphia had one of the biggest snowstorms. Matter of fact, the east coast had a major, major, major snowstorm. Like drowning in snow. Like death. Like either freezing or drowning in snow. Level damn near 27 inches. Like three to four feet.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And this is winter 95.

[Questlove]

Yes. Locked in. This is the top. This is the top of 96. This is all I remember. So there's two legendary rappers in Philadelphia.

[Lauryn Hill]

Steady B There's no storyteller who can rock like me the motivator of the microphone this will be the words that I'm stating Considered a factual Got the knack for the rap Cause I'm a natural Going to talk about I beat.

[Questlove]

Some more Move your feet and cool seat.

[Lauryn Hill]

I got a habit it's like a disease it pertains to question of seeds When I rock I'm in a deadly rage I'm mad as hell On a sucker rampage Searching for suck step Take them out.

[Questlove]

And the legend of these rappers is that times were getting hard and they had to resort to a life of crime. So they decided that they are going to rob a bank. So this is what happens. They. I believe they robbed that bank on a Thursday. All three went their separate ways. I believe that Steady B got caught first by day two. And I believe he dropped a dime on Coolsea's location. Coolsea insteady be like kind of dimed each other out separate rooms, all that stuff. So there was a third dude and his name. This is a very Philly name next to Meek Mill. Philly has very unique monikers. His name was Snook Nooka.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Oh, that's crazy.

[Questlove]

Yes, Snook Nooka. And this is all I remember. It was one in the morning and we had a decision to make. The engineers like, guys, I think a really big snowstorm is gonna come. So can we put this on ice and you know, go back home and then come back or, you know. And it was like sort of a passive aggressive Hint thing. Like, you know, can we get home or. I said. Or stay here all night and work on stuff. Cause the thing is, is that I gotta put some numbers on the board, man.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Yeah, you got.

[Questlove]

All I got is panic, okay?

[Open Mike Eagle]

At this point, all you got is panic. Still.

[Questlove]

I mean, I don't count you. And I verse in episodes because that's chaos.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Starting it. And you kind of, like, they just.

[Questlove]

Take my stuff and. Oh, let me hear. Oh, nice. Guys like that sort of thing. And it's just, you know, am I serving the album, serving the song, or serving my ego? And so I was like, yo, man, like, Razel's here. Like, let's stay. And, you know, the engineer was like, hey, I'm. I'm here for you guys. Like, you know, the check's good. So if we wanted to stay here, and that's what we did. We stayed in Snowd. So at the moment we made that decision, Malik, in classic Malik form, shows up at, like, 2 in the morning, like, just to see, like, who's still at the studio. And, you know, I was just about to set up a mic for Razel to, you know, do some stuff and figure out whatever, and we wind up working on no Great Pretender. The only thing that I remember about the session is that Malik had a friend of his, like, drive him down to the studio. And all I remember was, like, the friend had one of them, like, 4x hoodies on. Like, he's a small dude, but he had, like, a hoodie that almost, like, covered his whole, like, chin so you couldn't see it. And this is, like, pre Kanye, like, whatever. Like, let me see your face, dog. And it was just like, a figure of, like, someone just sitting on the couch with his face covered. And I didn't know who it was. And, you know, Malik's whole thing was like, yo, let me hear what y' all got, or whatever. And we put the thing up, and he's like, all right, I got something. I got something. He said, all right, put. And I was like, wait, Malik. Like, you. This is not ready yet. He said, nah, nah, this is good. I was like, I didn't even put drums on it. He said, nah, it sounds good like this. So literally, all I know is that when we get to the end. So he shouts out Snook Nooker. And the next day, I don't know if it was Tariq or Dice. He was like, wait, did he just shout out Snook Nooka? And I was like, yeah, Malikin, his boy was, you Know, was sitting in the lobby or whatever, and they were like, yo, man, Snook Nooker was the third person. He was the getaway driver. So cut to now it's like 17. It's damn near like 2 to 3ft.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Of snow out on the ground.

[Questlove]

Snow on the ground. And like, Snook almost got away because, like, the snow prevented the cops from really, like, you know, actively chasing somebody. And I don't know how he wound up getting caught, but, like, dude was literally, like, chilling with us for like, 20 to 30 hours and ended up.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Getting questioned and all that shit too.

[Questlove]

Nah, not either. It was just like, malik, why would you bring. And he was like, I know what happened. It was just like a classic what had happened was sort of situation. So. And again, it's like, great, now I got no great pretender But I'm still not.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And he did that song, right?

[Questlove]

Huh?

[Open Mike Eagle]

It's just Malik on that song, right?

[Questlove]

Yeah, he's. Malik is like, pretty much after this point, classic. Malik is showing up at the studio at four in the morning and, you know, maybe the assistant's there cleaning up, and he's just like, what, what, what? What they got on the reels. Like, put a reel up and then he'll just rhyme to it and I'll come here the next day. Like, what the hell? Like, one of the Things Fall Apart songs was for Erica and her then rhyming partner Free. You remember when Erica and her cousin Free were like a group that, I don't know, right before she was Erykah Badu, it was like, gonna be her and Free. And like, then somewhere Kadara sort of whittled it down like it's just her. And, you know. But again, like, Malik rhymed. Or one of the table content songs that I meant for Erica. But that's classic Malik.

[Lauryn Hill]

Sweep your sack to leave for you for stool pigeons My religion is the way your life but the trife replays acting shites these days Wage of war use the dynamics Cause I'm a slamming you talking all this out your mouth. You say, tenant from the planet Always taking for granted Just a cool.

[Questlove]

Once we got that out the way. I'll say that that's third quarter.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And so now you got just. You got. You said just panic and no great pretending.

[Questlove]

Yeah, just. I mean, just to me, like something I.

[Open Mike Eagle]

But I'm.

[Questlove]

I'm.

[Open Mike Eagle]

I don't. You know, from the outside in, you just. There's no. There's no real understanding of the division of labor or production inside the roots Especially because we knew y' all as a live band, so the whole thing was we didn't know who did whatever, right?

[Questlove]

But for me, it was just like, I think of my time, I was like, yo, I want to be. When you're talking about the greats, when you're talking about this new renaissance, when you're talking about Pete Rock, when you're talking about primo and Q Tip and shy like that. It was that era. And I was like, I want to get some numbers on the board. Like, I want to make beats. You know, I met Dilla doing Do youo Want More? So he's changing my life every day with every cassette.

[Open Mike Eagle]

He was doing with Far side stuff then.

[Questlove]

Yeah. Like, literally, you know, he's working on the Far side stuff and all that stuff. So that stuff's just coming out now, and I'm trying to get some numbers, and all I have is I'm on defense. I'm now fighting to keep. To stay in the game, you know, to not get benched, and I own the team. Like, that sort of thing. So it was kind of like an ego, mind fucking. And so I'll say that once this snow subsided, I remember figuring, okay, let me go back to the chaos way of doing things. So I remember me, Chaos Kamal, at the time Fatine, who is Daddy Kendrick of Kendrick, the family soul. He also went to Kappa with Tariq and I. At this point, Fatim was like our merch guy. But he sang. And, you know, the whole point was, like, to get him figured, you know, figure out, like, a role for him to start singing and stuff. He wrote some stuff for, like, Bell Bidevo's second album. The same with Kilo. Like, the same team. So I remember right after no Great Pretender, we knocked out no Alibi.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And that was you. You and Chaos.

[Questlove]

Chaos me, Kamal.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Cause that song has. Cause earlier you talked about you being good at textures. There's a humming in the midst of.

[Questlove]

That song, so that's okay. So that's all the jazzy fat nasties.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Okay.

[Questlove]

And fatigue of Daddy Kendrick again. We're not. It's not like, do you want more? Where let's get in a room together and let's play. It's now competitive. Like, I'm coming alone and I'm going to conduct my own sessions, but I'm not that well versed on basic keyboards, so it's like I got to use whatever tricks I got. Wow. Voices, you know? So that's pretty much where it comes from. So I'll say That. That got knocked out. And then we had to put the album on ice because Carol Lewis called us up and said, hey, good news, guys. We're gonna do our first summer in America. And I got the lineup. Goody Mob, the Fugees. Oh, and the Roots.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Here go.

[Questlove]

Here go. So this is February, and Fugees would.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Be headlining, I guess, right at that.

[Questlove]

Time, we were co headlining because the score didn't come out yet.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Got you.

[Questlove]

But you knew what was coming. Like Fuji la just come out.

[Lauryn Hill]

We used to be number 10 now we permanently won in the battle. Lost my finger mike became my arm pistol nozzle. It's nasal blood becomes lukewarm. Tell them I'll be easy now.

[Questlove]

Squeeze this.

[Lauryn Hill]

So much test. Why?

[Questlove]

Klepsy, definitely. And it's like. It was almost like, you know, animals can hear a, a, a, a storm first before. So I was like that damn. Salam Remy, man. Gave him another banger.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Super banger.

[Questlove]

And she's singing and.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And she's killing the verse. Yeah, it was just like, video was hard. Yeah.

[Lauryn Hill]

So read me.

[Questlove]

So I sensing this, and I. You know, I said this before on my own podcast. Like, if there's one lesson I learned in life. And really, I. It's not like I'm trying to pass off sage wisdom over. I really learned it on social media, like, before you retweet something, you know, look at. Look at your news source and make sure that you got it right. So again, yet another Jack the Rapper, yet another industry thing that we can't go to. Cause Geffen don't. Don't know about it or believe in it. We had done, ironically, an Atlanta homecoming show with the Far side and the Fugees. And I will say that the Fugees were doing the blunted on reality version of their show.

[Lauryn Hill]

Make some noise if you want to. Steve Horns draft. We're going to set this off like this. Achieve achiever, y'. All. Well, I'm a library. It never stop, yo. Achieve a library, y'.

[Questlove]

All. Yes, yes.

[Lauryn Hill]

Yo, yo. Here I go. You won a battle square.

[Questlove]

Which they didn't realize their full potential.

[Open Mike Eagle]

So they were using a dj?

[Questlove]

No, no, they were. They were a band. Okay, but I mean, it was more me five meish.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Uhhuh.

[Questlove]

It was more. It was Arrested Development is. I will say that where we excelled. And shout out to John Schechter of the Source. Cause even we were about to stray from the formula. And Schechter, remembering the roots from south street busking, he says, yo, he's like, not for nothing, but now, mind you, I'm listening to him all ears, because he's still Dr. Mike's.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Yeah, he's still heavy at the Source.

[Questlove]

He's still John Schechter of the Source. So whatever he says, you're, like, taking into account. And he's like, yo, yo, you guys. You guys are good and good, but look, you get a little too abstract with, like, all the jazz soloing and all that stuff. Because we wanted to show we're real musicians and all that stuff. He's like, yo, but you gotta remember, like, your audience is hip Hop heads. So you remember how y' all used to do on south street when, like, for a bar, y' all would go into, like, Bugging out by Tribe or start doing Scenario Remix and all that stuff. He's like, incorporate that into your show. So thus, we started coming up with what we called Hip Hop 101. And that suddenly became. And again, it's the novelty of it. The novelty of some band members, like, playing shit that, you know, something familiar. And that just. That literally was like the Men in Black flashy thing. It made the entire audience forget everything. Ladies and gentlemen, if you will look right here. And it was at the end of our show. So even if we had, you know, a questionable show where, like, the sound wasn't working or, you know, something weird happened, the last 25 minutes of our show was so goddamn flawless that it just made you think that that was the show. That's when I realized the most important, as a guy who curates shows, people are gonna remember how you came out. So the first 10 minutes. And even if you have a shitty show, if them last 20 minutes are like, the narrative will be, yo, that was the greatest show, right? And we had some great shows, some questionable shows, some mediocre shows, some dope shows. But that was always the perception was, yo, the Roots kill it live every time. So we did a show with them, and this is all I remember. You know, we had a friendly kinship going on. And we. Lauren was at the side of the stage, and we asked her, like, come kick something. And she came on stage, started kicking some shit with Tariq. They was going back and forth. And I remember my manager being at the soundboard, and he was like, yo, man, Praswell was beside himself. Like, no, like. Like, again, this is not told maliciously. It's healthy competition for sure. And all I remember was there was a person there who were mutual employees of both groups, like a tech person or whatever. But he was like, Our boy. And all I remember was, he's like, yo, man. He's like, that show had an effect on them. I'm like, what are you talking about?

[Open Mike Eagle]

This is the Atlanta show.

[Questlove]

Yeah, yeah. He's like, that show had an effect on them. I'm like, what you talking about? He's like, yo, man, he's like, you know, they doing Hip Hop 101 live, too.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Whoa.

[Questlove]

And I said, what? And he's like, yeah, man. And they got, you know, plus, they got a dj. So when they play on top of the dj, it makes the audience think like, yo, they really are playing. The bridge is over.

[Lauryn Hill]

The waxy residue on your rhyme style is ridiculous. If you're a misogynist, then you probably cannot get with this. If you sip with this, we'll leave no witnesses. See, nobody can touch what y' all bless. And I mean this. So I'll be like, osiris, I come with many gifts. Who's to be my nemesis? If you want to battle this, I bring it with niceness.

[Open Mike Eagle]

It's.

[Questlove]

It's little tricks that, you know, whatever, like. And all I remember was I heard someone say, yep. And I think one of them said, like. And if y' all see anyone else doing this, remember, like, you heard it here first. Now, in this age, I verify anything. I question the source. I question, you know, all that before. I take it to heart and do.

[Open Mike Eagle]

An action now at that time.

[Questlove]

But I wasn't doing that at 25. Yeah. So automatically.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And already you were in a kind.

[Questlove]

Of stressed out state anyway. Very stressed out, very competitive.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Yeah.

[Questlove]

And so instantly I'm like, oh, word? That's how you wanna come? Really?

[Lauryn Hill]

Y' all wanna come?

[Questlove]

Okay, I got something for y' all ass. So we. I said, yo, no more studio stuff. We gotta work on our live show. And I was just like, I don't care what. We gotta make sure. Like, we never rehearsed. But I was like, yo, we are gonna come for blood. Like, we're gonna kill the show. And this is the first time where, like, what was formerly our, you know, unstoppable Bulletproof root show from 93 to 96 threw that out the window and we came with a 2.0 all hip hop. Now, like, the third verse, we have, like, a Bucktown reference from Smith and Wesson. So now we're, like, flipping songs and remixing them and whatever the song of the moment is, like, we're just flipping, switching. Not just for Hip Hop 101. Now, the whole show is a hip hop tribute. And, like, we. We were out for blood. And so we did. We did that tour for, like, three months. And, you know, in. In light of. So obviously, as of this taping, we just did the roots picnic, and Ms. Lauryn Hill was the headliner. Yo.

[Lauryn Hill]

Yeah, we wanna have some fun. Ready or not, here I come. You can't hide I'm gonna find you and take it slowly. Ready or not, here I come. You can't hide? I'm gonna find you and make you want. Yes.

[Questlove]

And it was a stressful moment because, I mean, anything that we take on is stressful. She calls us up, like, three days before, and I'm like, oh, yeah. Are we about to have a. What had happened was moment? Had blunts and whatnot? I don't know what happened to you. Killer tape. What the Is my tape, son. Yo, came over to have 40s and blunts, kid. This is. Come on, man. I don't got nothing to do with my shit, man. She was like, you know, because of Pras's situation, legal situation, in which, you know, he's going to have to serve decades in federal prison, I guess a part of her felt, like, sentimental, like, this is going to be one of the last shows I do. You know, if he serves all of his time, like, he'll be 70 when he gets out. So basically the last Fuji show ever, at least at this incarnation. You know what I mean? So being in the audience and watching that moment, like, it just instantly. And even for her, like, I know. Even with the Talib kweli song about Ms. Hill and Ms. Hill, you got skills.

[Lauryn Hill]

That's a gift.

[Questlove]

It's real.

[Lauryn Hill]

Get ill what you spit. Got the power to up lift the hill. I wish I could talk to Lauren. I mean, excuse me, Ms. Hill. And let her know how much we love it.

[Questlove]

It's real.

[Lauryn Hill]

The industry was beating the ruck. Then them demons started eating the rough. She need a savior that'll bleed in the cup.

[Questlove]

Yup.

[Lauryn Hill]

We used to kick it in the salad days. But she look at me like she don't know me when she see me Nowadays I not back. That's how it stays.

[Questlove]

You know, it's sort of the unspoken. You know, we're very respectful when, you know.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Right.

[Questlove]

Anita Baker, whatever, Like, we're. We're very respectful of. Of these situations and whatnot. But. But I will say that having toured with her during the Score era, having toured with her in the Miseducation era and even with the MTV Unplugged era, like, we've been through each phase of her that was the closest to a 1996-98 experience that I had. Like, she was like engaging and telling jokes, remembered my name. And I don't mean that facetiously, but I mean, it was just like, you know, there was just a period where, you know, you didn't have access to her or speak to her. And this is a person that I would have, like, epic balloon water balloon fights with. Like, Lauren could have been a Navy seal. Like, the level of water battles that we had between groups in the hotels and, you know, playing tag with water guns and all that stuff, like, that's the type of kinship that we had. And so we took three months off just to do that tour and, you know, we became friends and all that stuff. Still professionally competitive, you know what I mean? And just each night, man, like some other magic would just hatch open for them. And then suddenly they went from like co headlining to headlining to cover Rolling Stone to, oh, now we sold 5 million, now we sold 7 million. Now we sold. Now we're in stadiums. And so I don't know that that lit a fire under my ass for the fourth quarter.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And it was songs.

[Questlove]

It was for me, instead of like fighting for my position, instead of fighting for my position on this album, I'm now thinking about fighting for my position in history. So now I'm like, okay, I'm gonna put one foot in building Questlove safe haven and my right foot still with.

[Open Mike Eagle]

The roots for those listening at home. He literally positioned his feet one place and the other place. Theater of the mind, right?

[Questlove]

And so I will say that. April 1, April 1, 1996, Soul Train Awards weekend in LA. One year left for Biggie and LA is already super heated. I mean, when I explain to people the amount of stress and duress that you could be in during the bad boy Death row, Death row situation, like now coming to LA and it's like, see my friends and have fun and not worry about if I'm rocking the wrong color or any of that stuff. But, you know, to go to a hotel and then tell you, like, oh, well, you know, security brought out the first three floors. And, you know, there was never a feeling of safety. And you don't know what's about to pop. You know, you gotta pick and choose wisely. Like, stop going to Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles and you might go to Koreatown to get fried chicken there where, you know, none of your rap peers are going to be. You know, it's that level of watch your back. So April 1, 1996, this is the show at the House of Blues in which we finally, after three years, really get to meet our peers. We had a little moment in 95 with like an occasional far side, some Wu Tang members, but we really never had a coming out party where it's like, you know, where it's like you're hugging Left Eye and you're meeting Montel Jordan and like people that you've been listening to for DJing for like all these years. I've yet to meet a Wu Tang member. Never met no one from the West Coast. Never met Snoop. Like, this is that moment and we're at the House of Blues and every celebrity is in attendance. And it's just like all that rehearsal, like. And again, it's love with them, but it's like we're out for blood. We gotta make an impression. And I'm glad you guys are blowing up and headlining because in my world, the penultimate position is the only position to do, like, never open the show, never headline the show. You want the position before the headliner. The penultimate. And just that was where we could get our. And we did hip hop 104 first. And, you know, our sound was right. We learned like how to do sound and the lights were. And we murdered it. But we get on stage and I'm looking right at the design of the House of Blues and smack dab in the middle in front of a spotlight, on the left side, there's an obscure tall ass head wrap that's at least three feet tall. And I see to her left a very distinctive Deangelo silhouette. Now in 95, during the first week of recording, mixing with Bob Power. Do you want more? That December of 93, he'd been trying to tell me that, yo, there's a life changing singer that I'm working with. And you guys would get along famously. And I was like, singer, R and B, whatever. And he came in and I judged him. His, his Tim's word. His Chucks were like, whatever. Not like, it's like a country bumpkin. His hair was in a box. And you know, I judge, I, I judged his gear. It's like corny, you know, like you one of these Jodeci guys, like, sing like boys to men with your arms outstretched. And you know, I was like, corny.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Getting rained on, right?

[Questlove]

And he came in, you know, I gave him a pound. But I was like, whatever, whatever, party.

[Open Mike Eagle]

People, we're leaving it right there for now. But tune in next week for the conclusion of Iladelf Half life. Peace.

[Questlove]

Stony island of all you.