Illadelph Halflife Part 3

Summary

What Had Happened Was: Illadelph Halflife Part 3

Podcast: What Had Happened Was
Host: Open Mike Eagle
Guest: Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson
Date: December 6, 2023

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Episode Overview

This episode marks the conclusion to an in-depth, multi-part discussion about Illadelph Halflife, the Roots’ formative 1996 album. Host Open Mike Eagle and Questlove dive deep into the album’s creative process, relationships with burgeoning neo-soul stars, and the volatile hip-hop climate of the mid-1990s. The conversation crescendos with Questlove’s vivid recounting of tensions surrounding the “What They Do” video—a story he frames as “the greatest story of this season.” The episode weaves through tales of musical evolution, unlikely studio encounters, unintentional hip-hop beefs, and a rapidly changing industry.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The 1995 Source Awards: The "Funeral" of Old-School Hip-Hop

• Questlove reflects on the 1995 Source Awards as a pivotal, somber moment for hip-hop, citing it as the beginning of a creative decline:
  • “I consider that hip-hop’s funeral, at least the near and dear hip-hop that I knew.” (02:39)
  • Describes witnessing Nas’s visible shame as Biggie repeatedly wins, culminating in Suge Knight’s infamous “East Coast ain’t got love for Dr. Dre and Snoop?” moment.
  • Recalls previous tension from the 1994 Source Awards, citing Tupac almost starting an incident by bum-rushing the stage. (03:43)

2. Serendipitous Encounter with D’Angelo

• Questlove recounts an unlikely moment when someone hands him D’Angelo’s “Brown Sugar” single as chaos unfolds at the Awards:
  • Calls Bob Power to discuss D’Angelo, realizing the transformative potential:
    • “This guy’s the fucking future. …I gotta figure out a way to calculate and scheme my way back into this guy’s [orbit].” (06:35)
  • Admits he had dismissed R&B as “corny” until hearing “Brown Sugar”.

3. Embracing a “Sloppy” Drumming Style Influenced by Dilla

• Questlove’s drumming was known for precision; he describes intentionally “un-quantizing” his performance, modeling after J Dilla’s “drunk” drum programming:
  • “I threw everything out the wind. And I’m playing like a drunk three year old.” (08:28)
  • Stresses it required humility, saying, “Throw your ego away. I want you to be human.” (08:41)

4. Meeting Erykah Badu and Early Neo-Soul Connections

• Discusses Badu’s early studio work, first as part of a duo and then solo—resulting in the recording of an Anita Baker cover and the classic “Other Side of the Game.”
• Notes Badu’s “Afro” was about Questlove and her crush on Black Thought is referenced in her lyrics. (11:42)

5. Studio Anecdotes—Prodigy Sleeping in the Kick Drum

• Questlove shares a humorous memory of Mobb Deep’s Prodigy catching a nap inside his drum setup while both groups worked at the same studio:
  • “…I walked to the front of the kick drum and got—it’s Prodigy from Mobb Deep sleeping inside my kick drum.” (16:48)

6. Entering the Alternative Hip-Hop Circle

• By participating in Baduism, Questlove found himself welcomed by the “alt left of center” class—Q-Tip, D’Angelo, Raphael Saadiq, De La Soul (“Not full Native Tongues, but they know our names”). (17:52)

7. The Making of “What They Do”

• Outlines the technical process of recording at Raphael Saadiq’s home studio (including muting trophies with self-deprecating humor). Utilizes studio tricks inspired by Prince to produce the unique drum sounds. (19:40)
• Candidly acknowledges not fully understanding radio hooks or mainstream song structure.

8. The “What They Do” Video: Satire, Reception, and Unintended Fallout

• Originally, the Roots exercised little control over their visuals, feeling “self-deprecating” and “going to lose anyway.” (27:05)
• The “What They Do” video, intended as dry satire of music video tropes (e.g. flashy rentals, glamour shots), was NOT an explicit attack on mainstream hip-hop:
  • “To me it was more like a very dry tongue in cheek. We are fish out of water in this place. We’re not thinking that people gonna feel a certain way about this.” (30:07)
• The video is mistakenly received as a direct critique—especially by Bad Boy Records and The Notorious B.I.G.

9. Biggie’s Hurt Reaction & The Ripple Through the Industry

• Editor Selwyn Hines warns Questlove that Biggie felt slighted by the video; Questlove is shocked, noting previous mutual respect:
  • “He’s family. …so it was like, he’s family. …Just totally missed that we made a One More [Chance]–a blatant One More Chance reference.” (33:25)
• Questlove is caught between wanting to issue a thoughtful rebuttal and the reality of Biggie’s tragic, untimely death—grappling with unresolved tensions.
  • “I hate the fact that he left without really knowing.” (41:16)

10. Lyricist Lounge Showdown and Aftermath with Diddy

• After Biggie’s death, Questlove describes a tense scene at Lyricist Lounge: Mos Def performs a thinly veiled critique (à la “Children’s Story”) while Diddy and his entourage glare from the crowd.
  • Questlove, Mos Def, and Q-Tip are pulled backstage for a heated conversation:
    • Diddy: “If I want to fuck four bitches right now, I could do that. …If I want to drink 20 bottles of Cristal, I could do that. You know, my man had love for y’all. …Y’all just on my man.” (48:33)
  • Questlove likens the confrontation to a “New Jack City” standoff; it’s all tension, “waiting for the universal beat down.” Ultimately, it resolves with Diddy leaving in a mix of performance and warning.

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Notable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the '95 Source Awards:
  • “I consider that hip hop’s funeral… anything after that moment is the slow creative decline.” —Questlove (02:39)
• On D’Angelo:
  • “This guy’s the fucking future. …I gotta figure out a way to calculate and scheme my way back into this guy’s [orbit].” —Questlove (06:35)
• On drumming inspired by Dilla:
  • “I threw everything out the wind. And I’m playing like a drunk three year old.” —Questlove (08:28)
• On the “What They Do” video:
  • “To me it was more like a very dry tongue in cheek. We are fish out of water in this, in this place.” —Questlove (30:07)
• On the fallout with Biggie:
  • “I hate the fact that he left without really knowing.” —Questlove (41:16)
• On Diddy confronting Questlove:
  • “If I want to fuck like four bitches right now, I could do that. …If I want to drink 20 bottles of Cristal, I could do that. You know, my man had love for y’all. …Y’all just on my man.” —Diddy via Questlove (48:33)
• Emotional coda on unresolved beef:
  • “He never got the chance to understand.” —Open Mike Eagle (41:16)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 02:39 – Questlove on 1995 Source Awards and hip-hop's shift
• 06:35 – Receiving D’Angelo’s “Brown Sugar” and the quest to collaborate
• 08:28 – Adopting Dilla’s drumming approach
• 11:42 – Erykah Badu’s early sessions with the Roots
• 16:48 – Prodigy sleeping in Questlove’s drum setup
• 19:40 – Building “What They Do” at Raphael Saadiq’s studio
• 27:05 – On self-deprecating music video visuals
• 30:07 – Satirical intention behind “What They Do” video
• 33:25 – Biggie’s reaction and Selwyn Hines warning
• 41:16 – Questlove’s grief and unresolved tension after Biggie’s death
• 48:33 – Diddy’s confrontation with Questlove and the wrap-up of the Illadelph Halflife era

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Conclusion

This episode masterfully blends musicology, memoir, and hip-hop lore. Questlove’s stories illuminate the intricate social web and unpredictable dynamics shaping the Illadelph Halflife era—from the Roots learning to play within new musical paradigms, building bridges with the future of neo-soul, and inadvertently fanning flames of major rap feuds. The “What They Do” story, both hilarious and sobering, offers rare insight into the unintended consequences of art and the fragility of legacies during hip-hop’s most combustible years.

Transcript

[Open Mike Eagle]

Welcome, welcome, welcome. My name is Open Mikey. Welcome to Season four. Episode nine of what Had Happened was this is the conclusion of Ella Delft Half Life. Man, this episode so all Illadel Half Life was basically one three hour long conversation. And when I got to the question of so what about the root song and video, what they do, I thought the conversation was winding down and hot damn, was I wrong. What we get after that is what I'm going to go out on a limb and say is the greatest story of this season of what had Happened was. And speaking of seasons, it's the holiday season and I'm going on tour starting today. If you're hearing this, on Wednesday, December 6th, I'm performing in Houston, followed by Dallas, Brooklyn, Philly, DC, Boston, Hampden, Connecticut, Orlando and Miami. For details go to mikeeagle.net this podcast is part of the Stony Island Audio Podcast Network, the home of hip hop podcasts you can actually listen to with shows like Super Duty, Tough Work with Blueprint and Ilogic, the Fatherhoods podcast and the dad Bod Rap Pod. And with that, let's get into the conclusion of Illadelph Half Life. Season four, Episode nine of what Had Happened was with the one and only Quest Love.

[Questlove]

Pick up a flashlight thick as a.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Mag light on the last album Ripping the bagpipes and this is the Half Life the grind like the lip of a half pipe and sharp like the tip of stalactites they wasn't clones though they punching your nose bones brute Roll tight like it's turbo in ozone no toes to price like Mall of the roads though blind the devil with the bold black and gold shine Travel through the giver not verse with the comm sense the bombshit give us 5 stars for the content Push up the lighter to contend with the darkness since what had happened was Open Mike Eagle and Quest Love for the Illadelph stories this is the plug to have the roots got it all out the mud once a this is your host, Open mike Eagle Century Season four. What had happened was this is part three, Philadelphia Half Life we keep changing the theme. It's like the anime Something traumatic happens.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

June of 95 we're at the Source Awards and I consider the second Source Awards and I consider that hip hop's funeral, at least the near and dear hip hop that I knew. And anything after that moment is the slow creative decline of kind of where we are now, depending on who you ask, but people my age range, it's like that's when the air started to come out the tires. And I'm literally watching Nas as each Biggie win happens. I'm seeing his body wilt into shame and humiliation. He was never the same after that. And so the moment before the Let it be known them what? East coast ain't got love for Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg. What? Wait, wait, wait. The east coast don't love Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg? The east coast ain't got no love for Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg and Death Row. Y' all don't love us. Well, let it be known then. We know y' all east coast, we know. I grabbed my date and was like, yo, we're out of here.

[Open Mike Eagle]

You can feel it in the.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

I felt like it was going to be a shootout or whatever. Cuz I was at the Source, the very first Source Awards a year before, and there was an incident with Tupac and a Tribe. Tribe was about to win for Midnight Marauders. And there was a miscue and Tupac came out to do I don't give a fuck. And he was like, disrespectful. I mean, and not disrespectful, but in that really like in your face, Tupac way. And so it just looked like he bum rushed the show to do his song before Tribe even got a chance to say thank you, whatever. So there was like a little Zulu Nation incident backstage, but it wasn't televised, so already I felt like the seeds of that in 94. So it's a year later and the have nots on the right side the middle, you know, I was there right across from Outkast when that whole the south got something to say moment.

[Questlove]

I'm tired of folks, you know what I'm saying? Closed minded folks, you know what I'm saying? It's like we got a demo tape and nobody want to hear, but it's like this. The south got something to say.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

That's all I got to say. Everybody was booing. The first thing I. I was like, yo, I was not part of that crowd. I'm a big fan of you guys. I listen to Mainstream every day. One of my favorite outcast songs, like I'm, you know, you cool, Amir and all the west and all the. The. The east coast winners on the other side. So as I'm running for cover as John Singleton's like, uh, oh, the winner is Dr. Dre. The winner is. Oh, we're gonna have some trouble here. The die like your dream. I run out of there and someone says, yo, yo, yo, and put Something in my hand, and it's Dangelo's Brown Sugar single and sampler. And I listen to this thing and I'm like, yo, this guy's life changing. And I see the big. The, the back says Bob Power. And I called Bob up. I'm like, yo, man, wait a minute. He's like, I tried to tell you, but he wanted me to drum. Bob wanted me to drum on damn. Ron Carter, jazz God bassist, did not want to play on a song called Shit Damn Motherfucker. So that session got canceled anyway. Ron Carter canceled it, not me. But, you know, I was looking at dm, I was like, you corny? I'm good. I'm good on R B because all that stuff is corny. And so when I got Brown Sugar that summer, I was like, I gotta. I gotta figure out a way to calculate and scheme my way back into this guy's.

[Open Mike Eagle]

That's real as hell. That's real as hell.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Because this guy's the fucking future. And I got it. So when he's sitting there and I know that's d' Angelo and Bahama Dia confirmed it for me, it's like, yeah, okay, so all that planning I did for the Fuji show and all that stuff, I went rogue. And now it's like, wait, why are you playing drums? Like offbeat? You take an edible or something? So my intentional Dilla influence, drumming, drumming, offbeat and all that stuff, I listen to it as obsessively as a fan, but I've never once thought like, oh, maybe I could drum like that. But I knew based on hearing Dreaming Eyes of Mine. Like, it's weird. Like, even though Dill is known for those drums, the drum programming on Dreaming Eyes of Mine was so sloppy and sound like a 4 year old's playing drums.

[Questlove]

Wishing my fancy.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

That that was my like, like my, hey, this is a new language, I better get with it. And it's just that when Dilla came in with like the Far side Lab Cabin production stuff, then I was like, it is a movement. And so it was there where I just did not warn the roots that I'm playing. You know, I was known as the world's most meticulous.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Like, yeah, yeah.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

I was the most quantized drummer ever. Is he live? Is he sample? I'm that guy. So literally, I threw everything out the wind. And I'm playing like a. A drunk three year old. And despite those guys looking at me the same way, if you remember when Marty McFly's in back to the Future about to like, Die. And, you know, playing Earth Angel. And they're looking at him like, are you okay, man? Like, You all right? So, I mean, the show was still dope, but the roots were like, okay, whatever that was. Like, is that how you gonna play now? Like, real fucked up like that. And the answer was like, kinda, yeah. Yeah. But I knew I couldn't. They just didn't understand that lesson. Cause to play that way means to throw your ego out. Cause you wanna. You know, drummers now are trying to do the most fanciest shit. Like, I'm the best, flashiest drummer. And my thing is like, mm, mm. Throw your ego away. I want you to be human. So when we met backstage, it was like, yo, we're brothers. And then it was like, yo, man, we gotta get in the studio. Yeah. And then it was like, when can we do it? You tell me. And so we exchanged numbers. So the fourth quarter really starts with the time where I thought this three foot. I don't know what the hell she has on her head. Like this head rap person. I later found out from Kadar Massenberg that she's a singer in her own right. And her name is Erykah Badu. And she has a cousin named Free. And they have a group together. And. And would you like to work with him? And we were going to do that, started making some tracks. And then later I get the call that, oh, she's just a solo artist now. And so she came to Philadelphia and we did a cover of Anita Baker's angel to the Music of Woowa. Got you all in check.

[Open Mike Eagle]

G. Mcdermott.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Yeah, the g. Mcdermott thing. Would have went through. But then on the High School High soundtrack, Faith Evans sampled it. So then that went out the window. And then I know that she wanted to make sometimes a thing with her and Tariq. Cause she even sings about Tariq. That little interlude. Well, came to the show. I respect your flo. I want to know you want to go to the studio, bust a line or two, what you like. She's singing to Tariq. Afro was about me. Well, if you don't pick your Afro, you're gonna have one side high. Well, you said you was gonna take me to see Wu Tang, baby. So I braided my hair. Where. And then we knocked out Other side of the Game. There might have been one more song that I. That didn't make the album that I forget the premise was. And yeah. And Afro. I'm clearly snoring on the floor. Speaking of snoring on the floor, the recording of no Alibi we're mixing with. There's a legendary engineer, Kenny Duro. I don't know his last name, but.

[Open Mike Eagle]

I know who you mean.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

But he started out, we were his first clients, and based on his credits with us, then Rockefeller took him for a bit before Young Guru came along. And then I guess he became like sort of a staff engineer for anything with Clue or Clue association.

[Open Mike Eagle]

He did like Bush babies too, didn't he?

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Well, yeah, I mean, he had numbers under the belt or whatever. But I do remember readjusting the drums on no Alibi. I went in the drum booth and I'm drumming and I look down. Why is Prodigy sleep in our song? They're making hell on earth they're making hell Mobb Div is making hell on earth in the studio next to us.

[Questlove]

Yo, the saga begins begin war I draw first blood Be the first to set it off my cause Tap all drawers, lay down laws we take it with yours we do jokes Rush the doors here Come to D's time to make Breeze the guns toss in full force the team will go watch him.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

There's a very specific kind of texture that I got out of my drums on Panic.

[Questlove]

Look out the window peep the high beams now they searching the cops Looking for the person that pulled the trigger Medical figures is nursing the kid that got shot.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

I've been reading with Bruce Bedean, like how he mixed Thriller and he would stereo rise everything. So most people record with, you know, track three is snare, top snare, track four is bottom snare. But he. To get those drums crispy for Billie Jean, he would stereo rise the drums and have two microphones on each drum, a left side and a right side. It takes up space. But, you know, we have 48 track. So my drum setup in the studio was more akin to like a fort. Like when you're like a. A six year old having the sleepover and you set up like a fort and pillow fort. Yeah. And you put the chairs up in the living room and the. In the. That sort of thing. So, like from my kick drum all the way, you know, put a chair like maybe four feet over there and covered it with a bunch of comforters and blankets and that sort of thing. But you kept hearing like. So I walked to the front of the kick drum and looked under and got its Prodigy from Mobb Deep sleeping inside my kick drum.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And you was using it and he.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Was still in his sleep.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Or you just. This is before you started kicking the kick drum.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

He. No, I just walked in and it was dark. I had no reason to believe that I'd have a stairway sleeping. Only the only other person to take a nap in my drum set was Bushwick Bill. And that was, like, intentionally and on stage, like, he crawled inside. It's like, I just love the vibration. I'm like, dude, I got to kick this thing. I don't want to hurt you, but, yeah, that's speaking of sleep. So I will say that we worked on Baduism and then there was a paradigm shift in which we were now allowed to play in some reindeer games. I befriend at Q Tip. I befriended d'. Angelo. I befriended Rafael Sadiq. So I kind of befriended the original alt left to center alternative hip hop class of 96. Even befriended de La Soul. So suddenly it's like, hey, welcome aboard. Like, you're down with us now. Not full native tongue, but, like, enough that they know our names and they respect us and we've done shows together and that sort of thing. So basically with all of them, it's like, hey, you want to. Can you be on the record? Can you be on the record? Can you be on the record? So I'll say one fell swoop, fourth quarter is we go to Battery Studios and Tip brings a whole bunch of records in.

[Open Mike Eagle]

So Ital comes out of that.

[Questlove]

I want to be able to reach an emcee and reach a little child in the same degree, and my elders excel. I mean, what the hell? We might as well bridge these gaps and all before we fall in.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Yeah. So Ital, the thing was, I thought that was a Q tip. Like, especially, like, he made up that song. So we did not clear that song from.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Oh, okay.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Oh, he. You know, When it came out, then suddenly, like, where's our money? It's like, oh, God damn. But thank God that I guess he respected the roots. And it was just like a. Cause sometimes it's not like that. Like, if you put it out before you cleared it, then they got your balls to the wall. They can say like, a trillion dollars. But he was just like, hey, that's our song. Okay, we're looking for you. But you were in Japan, so, you know, we were good with that. So we knocked that out. Then what?

[Open Mike Eagle]

How's that one built musically?

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

So, you know, I decided, like. And it was literally like, yo, Rich, I'm taking the helm on this thing. You know, by that point, everyone had, like, all these beats, right? And they would skip the middleman and just go straight to Tariq. And the thing is, a root song is Not a root song unless Tariq and Malik are like, we fucks with this. And so it's like, all right, cool. All right. So I want to helm this. I want to helm this. I want to helm. So we go out to Sacramento to Rafael's crib. Funniest thing ever. Like, his American Music Award for best group is like his doorstopper in his garage, which is like where I got the brilliant idea. Like, oh yeah, I'll put all my Grammys in the bathroom. Like, you know, again, like, we're so self deprecating with like, achievements or whatever. It's like, I don't care about that stuff. So we went to his crib. I think he did he take us to a strip club first or whatever. I forget what it was. And then we kind of had a real. With a rough groove of what was what they do. I definitely remember his engineer, whose name escapes me right now. His engineer. I don't know. I did some of my tricks this time. No backwards ethereal keyboard sound and stuff. I think I took a cue from Prince where I played the drums. I vary speeded the tape slow. So that way when you played it regular, it sounded like really tinny and small. And he played bass on it. I remember, like. And again, we don't know what a hook is or what effect. We just figured, like, I think in my mind, like an R B hook is whatever Jewel's doing at the end of Dre day. Like, we're not thinking about like familiarity or lyrics or connecting with the audience or that sort of thing. So I think in hindsight, I would have not chosen that moment, you know, to talk about, like MCs or that sort of thing.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Since you. Since you have.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

And I alluded into the other podcast that you know, that the sort of sting of, you know, well, remember, if you see anyone else doing this Hip Hop 101 thing, we did it first. Like, so maybe the last two queso lines. My man came over and said, yo, I thought he heard you jokes on.

[Open Mike Eagle]

You here to bite ass crew. So okay.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

My man came over and said, yeah, we heard you jokes on you.

[Questlove]

You heard a biting ass crew. My man came over and said, joe, we thought we heard you jokes on you. You heard a biting ass crew. But never do.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

You know, that was sort of like our. Yeah, we see all out there. Like, that was our idea first. But again, it was all in the name of like, just real competitive. Like, it was never a thing where, you know it's going to be all out war.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Well, look, that leads me to my next and probably final question as we. As we wrap this up. Like, because what they do is a big single and that video, like, we got to talk about the video.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

All right, so here's the deal.

[Open Mike Eagle]

I mean, you talking about all out war.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

So here is the deal. So we finished the album. So we knock out what they do. And the last song we do, the last day of ill adelf Half Life, also coincidentally is the first day of voodoo. So, you know, we want to turn this record in by July so that we can have a September release. Because back then you needed a three month leeway.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Yeah.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

To turn your record in critics and all that stuff. So we knocked out what they do and we knocked out the hypnotic. Yeah.

[Questlove]

I knew this girl named Alana with mad Persona she dealt with reality never fed into the drama. I met her through my named Jermaine Palmer, who knew her through his peoples by the Baltimore harbor. Alana was a Maryland thorough and attractive shorty.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

That's Relax Quickly the story of the.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Hypnotic slim kid, Trey.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Yeah. So every day driving home from the studio, five in the morning, six in the morning, I put Emerald Butterfly on by the far side.

[Questlove]

You see, the moon has a way with young idle minds and idle time is the playground where old professions lay down like sweet sugar stays brown and on the mind callous whispers blow through cinder lips like wind chimes that single quiet.

[Open Mike Eagle]

This is in Philly. You driving home from the studio doing that playing ass. Okay.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

In Philly. Yeah. And you know, the Jazzies had a copy of Emerald Butterfly because they're singing on it.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Oh, okay. Now it all makes sense.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Right? And they, you know, I think on that tape there was an instrumental there. So just the sound of that song was the perfect soundtrack to the twilight, you know, Right.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Late at the beat, sun's about to rise.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Yeah. Five in the morning the sky's all pink and whatever. And it's just like that was our driving home music. And by the end of it, I didn't have any ideas for d'. Angelo. And I was just like, you know, I called up Tracy and you know, dawn to see if they could call up Trey to see if we could get the reel. And back then you had to send like physical reels and whatnot. And they were like flattered, like, oh, yeah, do it. So we knocked out the record and time to do the videos. And I will say of everything that is that the Roots is about, like, we will micromanage everything. The, the album credits, the fonts, the titles the everything. Our weakest area was the visuals. Now, I don't know if this is a psychological sabotage thing where it's like, you know, a person that will break up with you before you break up with them. Yeah, I'll quit the job before I get fired. You know, we weren't competitive with these Hype Williams videos. We were getting. Those were million dollar videos. Right. We were getting like $100,000 budgets and, you know, no wardrobe. Yeah.

[Open Mike Eagle]

You just basically wearing whatever you had on that day.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Yeah. And it was like after Clones. Ah, man, Horrible video. I hate that fucking video.

[Open Mike Eagle]

That video's got a charm to it. But I can understand from the artist's.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Perspective, potholes in my law kind of charm. But by this point, like, Bad boy's in full swing.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Exactly.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Like, Diddy's doing the cha cha with JLO in his videos and Quincy Jones is in there. You know, like, us versus them. Were was just starting to plant its seed. And so we chose Charles Stone to do Concerto over Desperado.

[Open Mike Eagle]

That was a great video, which I wasn't mad at.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Charles was a Philly guy, but the whole thing was like, basically we were just extremely self deprecating. We were motley. We already were like, we're gonna lose already. So we just really put no effort into the visual. It was more or less like here, if you remember, in Boomerang, where Eddie Murphy just tells Joffrey Holder, like, before they shot that Strawn J commercial. Like, yeah, man, do what? I don't care. Just do whichever. And then Joffrey Holder does his most exaggerated Grace Jones, like, you know, all that. And that's, you know, it was cool for Concerto, but for what they do, we had label mates, a group named Tesla. Weird name. Tesla did a song called To Be with youh.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Oh, the rock band Tesla.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Yes.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Okay, I remember them now.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we would choose video directors based on the video stash, and we would go through groups that Geffen had good relationships with. So they put the Tesla thing on. Hey, this guy did a Tesla video. Da, da da. And so then they got to the third video. It's like, hey, you guys, your guy that did Concerto over Desperado, he also did this Tesla video, and it was a hilarious ass video. It was a video of the guys in a plain green screen. And the. The commentary. What happened? Glam shot.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Oh, so they were doing the video music video motif thing. Yes, in that video.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

But they hated that video.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Okay.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

And they left the label. Oh. So that song and that video never Came out okay. And I was like, and how much y' all make this for? He's like, yeah, we made it for like 250. I was like, dude. And I called up Charles Stone. Hello. Charles Stone is the creator of what's up, what's up, You know, Philly homeboy. So we called him up like, yo, dude, that Tesla video you made, like, we want that video. He's like, no problem. So we didn't look at the treatment and none of that stuff. We just thought like, you're going to give us exactly what you gave to Tesla. We didn't know that people might feel a certain sort of way because maybe.

[Open Mike Eagle]

I guess on paper that video doesn't necessarily need to be critiquing mainstream hip hop.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

On paper, there was never a. We're gonna build the exact set of one more chance, right? You know, we're gonna do. It was more or less like cliche thing, like rental car shot. Yeah, yeah. But here's the other thing I totally forgot about. Ego Trip. So even then we were so like grinding in Europe, like there was no cable, there's no, I mean, there's YOMTV raps, but we didn't have that shit. So we totally missed that. So we do the video and in a tongue in cheek way, yes we were. And you know, this is not also the back out of like, you know, they're pouring the champagne thing. I was like, well, you know, okay, so we'll, we'll do the glass thing and all that stuff. But to me it was more like a very dry tongue in cheek. We are fish out of water in this, in this place. And you know, again, we're not thinking that people gonna feel a certain way about this.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And so Yalls intention was never to.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Like come at someone.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Well, not even, not even come at somebody. Like it made me think of like, you know, death or Auto Tune or something, right? Where if like you call something out, you kind of almost expect it to.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Like go the way. Yeah. The way that people were like giving us pounds. Like, yes, I finally wait for someone to stand up for real hip hop. And you know, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but not really. But okay, I'll be what you want me to be. I'm on what side? Whatever side's winning. Shit was cool. Like we're start, we're getting at it on MTV in the afternoon. Non YOMTV raps. Like, this is our first like taste.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Of video that's crossing over.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Yeah. And it's happening. So back in Europe, it's now a year later, back in Europe, March of 1997. So we're in Paris, France, and Selwyn Hines, the now editor in chief of the Source magazine, if you remember, there was a conflict of interest situation between Benzino and the original Source staff over almighty RSO situation. So that staff walks out to show you my obsession with shit. Literally begging to see what my mic rating was like. I went up there, like, early in the morning, waited outside, and as they opened up that fresh issue, I'm seeing my mic rating. They're seeing an Armadi RSO story that they didn't approve. And it was like, amir, you gotta leave the office right now. Hell's about to break loose. And so that Redman94 October issue was the last classic Source issue. So I'm happy as shit. We got a leave review, four mics. I'm running home like, I made it. Meanwhile, hell is breaking loose, you know, at the Source office. So Selwyn Hines calls my publicist up, Amy Morris, and is like, yo, I just want to warn you that Biggie has some choice words about the what they do video. And I want to know if Amir would like to rebut and have response.

[Open Mike Eagle]

To it to be quoted in the Source, right?

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

And I was like, wait, Biggie has what? Cause Biggie's family. Biggie went on record to say, like, an Eagle Trip magazine. He's like, rating the rappers. We got a perfect 10. He's like, scoring all the rappers and whatnot. Like, oh, J Rue, the damager, number nine, the Roots. Oh, I love them. Can't you. We have Biggie on record, on video saying, yo, I love y' all that song. Can't you see what you mean to me? I want to love you constant. He's singing Silent Treatment to us. So it was like, he's family. Yeah, just totally missed that. We made a one more. A blatant One more Chance reference. So he's like, yeah, man, you know, my feelings is hurt, man. But, you know, it's all good because by that point, few groups starting with, like, playing yourself, like with J Ru's.

[Open Mike Eagle]

That's what I was about to say if he was shouting out J Ru. And then they ended up beating J Rue up or something, didn't they?

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

No, no, no, no. But there was a very much loved rap group that got a pre. Viral video, pre world star retaliation. That, that, that word of that to spread through, like, the industry. Like a. Like, Biggie's out for blood. And he's, you know, it's bad Enough like the shit's happening at Death Row, but it's like in his own backyard. Like, y' all coming at me. So all I remember was like, the quote was like, yeah, you know, you know, I'm cool. But you know, one of my, you know, my. I don't know if it was like, gutter. Like one of them cast that he shots out, like, you know, he. He might have to see, you know, the. The nickel with the stick in his mouth just bow like something. Like, he was like, yo, I'm gonna see them.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Damn.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

And I was totally. I was like, yo, it's that serious. Oh, like now it's like, what do I do? Because it's like, okay, well, we were lightly tapping, but we didn't mean offense to it. But now it's like the video's in rotation at mtv, so the world doesn't know that. So what do I do? I don't want to look like a sucker being like, backing out of a. Backing out of something. So I asked Selwyn Hines like, yo, can I write an OP Ed? And he's like laughing like, motherfucker, this ain't the New York Times. Like, you want to write an OP Ed? I was like, yo, man, I really want to. And my case was that I remember you guys let Farah Munch write the. Instead of you doing the editor. You know, the editor of the issue does the first page and write something they let Pharaoh Munch write about. You know, something. I was like, I want that position. He's like, all right, well write it. So I remember me and Rich crafting like the perfect manifesto of like, what we saw as the brewing. Like, whatever it was, it was sort of like it wasn't us backing down, but it was also like, are we gonna sacrifice art for commerce? Like, it could be seen as. As. As pretentious or whatever. But I mean, our aim. Our aim was true. And we never meant that. We never meant that with ill intent. The truth is, yo, man, we were just self deprecating lazy dudes. I mean, not lazy dudes, but like, we didn't care about the video. And it's just like, all right, whatever y' all want to do. Just show me where to stand and I'll do the shit. And the video was funny. So we approved. Was like, finally a video that's funny and engaging. Yeah, we approve it, but not once did we think, like, that might offend somebody. We just thought everyone would be laughing at it, especially.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Cause y' all used to going under the radar anyways. So y' all never had to think about nothing like that before.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Yeah, it's just that we truly didn't do it. And. And like, all I remember was, man, so February of you remember the whole Grammy situation with Old Dirty Bastard? Like, Wu Tang's for the children.

[Questlove]

I went and bought me an outfit today that costed a lot of money.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Today, you know what I mean?

[Questlove]

Cuz I figured that Wuang was going to win. I don't know how y' all see it, but when it comes to the.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Children, Wuang is for the children. We teach the children. You know what I mean? Puffy is good, but Wu Tang is the best. Okay? I want y' all to know that this is ODB and I love you all. Peace. The Grammys are in New York City at Radio City Music Hall. And Erica won for Baduism that night. She won album of the year. So I was there. And the best R B album is. Oh, I'm such a big fan. Erykah Badu. All right. You know, I represent the artists who are often unheard.

[Questlove]

And this is for us.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Amir, you see this?

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

All I remember was I was at the after party and I got a page from Dream Hampton. She's like, are you at the da da da da da Universal after party right now? I was like, yeah. She's like, leave right now.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Oh, shit.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

And I was like, why? What's happening? It's like, leave right now. I was like, how long do I got? And she's like, now? Like, you got five minutes. And I guess I was spotted by someone in the camp who'd been warned. Na na na. Who warned, yo, they here right now. And so I left. A week later, we're in back on tour. And it's also like, catch us if you can. Like, we're always in Europe, so it's like six months over there. We're going to be there till from March to maybe June. So we crafted this rebuttal, which I thought was. Was tasteful, and. And we stood our ground, and we more or less talked about the danger of where we saw hip hop going. And it took about nine hours to craft. This is before texting and computers and all that stuff. So I'm writing this shit down. There's nobody at the front desk when I'm done. So I was like, all right, I'll wait till the morning, get up the next day. I go to the front desk. We're at a Holiday Inn in Paris about to go to the south of France, and I asked to use the Phone. And I text my publicist, Amy, and I'm like, hey, give me your fax number so I can fax you this rebuttal. It's like, what rebuttal? I said the rebuttal that I'm gonna send Selwyn Hines for the response thing. She's like, are you serious right now? Oh, boy. I was like, yeah. It's like, you don't know what happened. And I was like, what are you talking about? Biggie's dead.

[Questlove]

The second time in six months, a star in the often brutal world of.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Gangster rap has been gunned down. This time, it was notorious. BIG. Wait. But literally 10 hours ago, someone is like, I know someone asked you for a response. He. He was the last interview he went to that and explained everything. He went to the after party, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's dead. And literally, I'm like, so what happens? Like, are we. Do I still send this thing or. I don't know what to do. And, man, that. That shit hit me even now, man. Like, I hate the fact that he left without really knowing.

[Open Mike Eagle]

He never got the chance to understand.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Yeah. Where that was coming from. Y' all never got to, like, piece.

[Open Mike Eagle]

It up or nothing like that.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

The thing is, is that, you know, it was a whole different environment when we arrived in the States in May of 1997. And the first thing that I do, I am now at the beginning of Voodoo Land. So we're starting to do these long, mammoth sessions at Electric Lady. And I arrived in New York. It's a Sunday night. I hit up Q Tip like, yo, let's get dinner or something. So he picks me up, and all I remember was Q tips. Like, yo, we're going to do dinner. And I'm hosting something called Lyrics Lounge. And, yo, you got to see this kid, man. He's incredible mc. He's like, you know about Mighty Most Def. And I was like, nah, never. And he talked about, like, UTD or whatever. Like, he was in a group on Payday Records. UTD he was part of. He was like a trio before he went solo.

[Questlove]

But if it ain't red then it must be blue and if it ain't forced then it must be chill and if it ain't day then it must be night and if it ain't left then it must be right Right. And if it ain't whipped then it must be high and if it ain't loose then it must be tight and if it ain't off then it must be on if it ain't Here, then it must be gone. If the shit ain't popping, then it must be raw. Whatever don't fit does not belong.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

And so it's like, all right, so we grab dinner and he's going to host Lyric's Lounge. And Most is without a record deal. You know what I mean? And so he's like. But he's such. He's such a charismatic mc. He's like a. Almost like a standup comedian and a really dope mc. You're going to love this guy. And Tip is like, telling the entire industry, like, come out, see this guy, see this guy, whatever. So Most, of course, is every. I mean, he's in rare form, of course, really, just, like, engaging. I've never seen someone, like, talk to the ground, be funny, be himself, and not have to put on these posturing things or whatever. And he's just killing shit. And right before he does his last song, he's like. He does a little acapella and he does his version of a children's story that winds up on the Black Star record.

[Questlove]

Once upon a time, not long ago, when people wore Adidas and lived life slow, when laws were stern and justice stood and people was behaving like hip hop was good, there lived a little boy who was misled by a little Shay Dawn. And this is what he said.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

But he does acapella. Me and you, we're gonna make some cash. Jacking old pizza, making the dash. And you know, he's doing it, like, freestyle, like, kind of like lyricist lounge style, where every line is just like. So he does that whole narrative, right? Gets to the last part. So this ain't funny. So don't you J laugh. Now when he's doing this children's story thing, you know who he's talking about? He. Instead of talking about a guy mired in trouble with. With gun charges, he's talking about a. A CEO who is a wannabe producer who's jacking up all these samples that are easy and not really putting effort into it and whatever. So it's like Wink, we know the producer that he's talking about that's coming in and on hip hop. We know it, and we're looking at his every word. So do you know the. The front cover of the Universal Magnetic B Boy?

[Open Mike Eagle]

I don't know.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

He's, like, standing in a B Boy suit.

[Open Mike Eagle]

They actually do know that.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Right? That's from that night.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Wow.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

So he says his line, this ain't funny. Even though she did laugh then in the case about the wrong Thing. See now, and whatever the last line is, it's different than straight narrowing. The soul kids cast, good night. Like it's something to do with that figure who's ruining hip hop. And he says, drake, no, no, no, good night. And he does the B boy stance, right?

[Questlove]

This ain't funny, so don't you dare laugh. It just will come to pass when you sell your ass. Life is more than what your hands can grasp. Good night.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

And we are all light. Yeah, he's killing. Like I'm hugging people like within proximity and hugging them and hugging them and hugging them. And my peripheral, I look to three o'. Clock. Oh, God, no. It's like, think of, think of Wesley Snipes, Blade mode. All black, black and then black and then black and then black. It's Diddy, it's D Dot, Angelette, it's Rashad Smith, it's the entire Diddy. Man, hit me. Okay. Yeah. And it's like nine of them. And they were watching me. High five, motherfuckers. Like, yo, he killed that shit. Yeah, man. Yes. Yes. Oh, no. Oh, shit. And I was like, oh, man, I'm about to have a PM Dorn beat down.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Oh my God, it's over.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Like, it's literally over. But he was just, he was gritting in my face so hard, like, he's.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Really focused on you and not most on stage.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Because by that point like that what they do really spread ripples. Like, we weren't known. We weren't that Hip Hop 101 band. We weren't the jazzy group. We weren't. We were the dudes that made that funny ass video making fun of the villains. But on top of the bad boy shit, on top of the killings, on top of, you know, other people from the east coast dissing them. But here I am in the FL and like that video just encapsulates all the hateration that they feel. And I was like, well, if I was going to get sucker punched, it would happen right now. But Tip is also feeling some sort of way. Cause Tip didn't know that he was gonna do that.

[Open Mike Eagle]

I see.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Cause Tip's trying to get him get more stuff on.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Yeah.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

So now I think between the balance of, oh, here's that roots nigga right here versus, oh, what, you trying to set me up, nigga. Like that edged out, that was 51 to 49%. So now tip has to be a diplomat. And I just stood in place because I, you know, I didn't want to like walk away from the situation and Then really like, yo, they looking for you. Like, I want whatever was coming to me.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Like, I just wanted to happen right then.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Let's have it right now. And so Tip is basically like five minutes late. He comes up, yo, can we all be in the back? And so it's me. And we're at wetlands. So it's me, Tip, Diddy, all the Diddy hitmen, Jesus, and most. And we're sitting there on these low ass chairs. And it's almost like that moment in New Jack swing when, like, you know, Wesley Snipes has the blade thing, you know, like, who infiltrated the card. And like, it's one of those moments.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Yeah.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

And he's like, let me tell you something, playboy. If I want to fuck like four bitches right now, I could do that. Like, he's everything that we talked about in the video.

[Open Mike Eagle]

He's flexing it.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

If I want to. If I want to drink 20 bottles of Cristal, I could do that. You know, my man had love for y'. All. Y' all just on my man.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And he just passed to a few months before.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

And he's just, let me have it, let me have it, let me have it. Let me have it. Let me have. And I'm just like, wait a minute.

[Open Mike Eagle]

And Moses in the room.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

Yeah, yeah. He's like, why is it. Oh, man, he just like. It was more. I'm. I'm not being dismissive by saying, like, it was a performative act to let them know, but it was like, you know, it was. It was that moment where, like, that screaming that he did on Pray for My Downfall. You weak, jealous motherfuckers.

[Questlove]

If you're a jealous motherfucker, you just a weak motherfucker.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

See, when you on top, motherfuckers just want to bring you down. Like, we just. We took that shit for 20 minutes. Like I've never had, you know, when you're about to get that beating from your pops. But you gotta go through that speech first. Like, it was just like, are we leaving or not? And then he's just like, peace. And walked out.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Wow.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

And I looked at Tip, like, so what happens? He said, I guess we go home.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Damn.

[Ahmir Thompson (The Roots' drummer)]

So, like, I felt relieved because I didn't get the universal beat down right. Tip probably felt like, oh, man, like, I got set up trying to hook somebody up. And I don't know what Mose felt Moses like, oh, I'm assigned with, you know, and we went home and that's the next day, the beginning of Voodoo, which then bleeds into things fall apart starts. So that's kind of how illadove half life ends. So.

[Open Mike Eagle]

Well, we'll leave it there for now. We'll get a little bit into a little bit of how it was received next time. But what an amazing place to end it. We will catch y' all next time.