Season Finale: What is a Soulquarian?

Summary

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What Had Happened Was – Season Finale: What is a Soulquarian?

Podcast: What Had Happened Was
Host: Open Mike Eagle (Stony Island Audio & Talkhouse)
Guest: Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson (The Roots)
Date: January 3, 2024

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Episode Overview

The season finale of “What Had Happened Was” concludes a deep-dive journey through The Roots’ formative albums, ambitions, and the creative “Soulquarian” movement. Host Open Mike Eagle and Questlove explore the legendary late-90s/early-2000s period that birthed classic projects by The Roots, D’Angelo, Erykah Badu, Common, J Dilla, and others. The discussion covers the magic, tensions, and ultimate unraveling of the Soulquarian collective, along with lessons learned from the era.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of Questlove and Open Mike Eagle’s Relationship

• Meeting Story & Connection:
  Open Mike Eagle recounts his first direct encounter with Questlove at SXSW, emphasizing the serendipitous connection (00:08–04:13). He shares a personal anecdote about Questlove saving his laptop, which formed the basis of their friendship.

  "Questlove gets off after me... and he's got a laptop in his hand. I had left my laptop in the seat back pocket... and he brought it to me, thus saving my entire fucking South by Southwest weekend." – Open Mike Eagle (04:13)

2. The Creative Process: Making “Things Fall Apart”

• Origins of the Album Intro:
  Questlove explains the influence of D’Angelo and J Dilla on the intro’s creation, highlighting Dilla’s remarkable ability to remember and recreate music after hearing it only three times. The story reflects the environment and shared genius among the Soulquarian crew (09:13–15:00).

  "Dilla was so good that you just instantly knew it was an honor for you. I knew at that point... I'm going to be the Dilla historian and I'm taking note of every historical moment." – Questlove (11:05)

• Easter Eggs and Album Versions:
  The episode delves into Questlove’s love for Easter eggs, multiple versions of the album, and hidden interludes. He describes pulling tricks like running tape backwards for interludes and dropping subtle references throughout (16:30–27:27).

  "Those that have all five records will see all Easter eggs everywhere... I'm just an Easter egg guy." – Questlove (16:55, 27:29)

3. Navigating Industry Perceptions and Competing for Recognition

• Struggles with Media & Genre Labels:
  Questlove discusses efforts to influence media narratives, the competitive pursuit of "mics" from The Source magazine, and frustrations about being pigeonholed as "underground" or "backpacker" rap (19:00–22:05).

  "If she's doing our feature, all right, let me make a... let me do a horse and pony show... You have to create the story that you want to read." – Questlove (21:00)

• Protecting the Movement:
  He notes the strategic attempts to control the story of the Roots and the Philadelphia scene, including behind-the-scenes actions to ensure fair portrayal in major publications (30:35–32:23).

4. The Soulquarian Movement: Birth, Peak, and Demise

• Soulquarians’ Rise & Identity:
  The term “Soulquarian” originated as an inside joke between Questlove, James Poyser, and J Dilla, referencing their Aquarius zodiac signs—not intended as a formal collective (31:33–32:23).

  "Me, James, and Dilla were like, hey, we're all born in January and February, so we're the Soulquarian... but when that photo came out, that was the end of the movement." – Questlove (31:39)

• The Downside of Branding:
  The famous Vibe magazine photo spread was meant to showcase the wider family, but some artists disliked being branded as part of a “crew.” The public declaration signaled the beginning of the end for the movement.

  "Whenever something gets declared, flag planting, no, it's actually the end of the sentence." – Questlove (32:23)

• Dave Chappelle’s Block Party as a Farewell:
  Questlove emotionally marks Chappelle’s Block Party as the Soulquarians’ “funeral,” representing the final collective peak before careers and the musical landscape shifted (34:03–38:35).

  "That day, I knew this was the last time that we were all going to be together. I just knew that, like, this is the end of a movement." – Questlove (38:35)

5. Industry Change, Legacy, and Creative Evolution

• The Rise of a New Guard:
  With the rise of “hipster” media (e.g., Pitchfork) and shifting industry winds, the Roots and their movement saw a decline in clout and visibility (39:22–40:05).

  "I feel like part of ripping down the Roots was basically burn the emperor's old clothes... that was the thing, like... 'The Roots are the group that white people that don't like hip hop, like.'" – Questlove (39:31)

• Personal Creative Journey:
  Questlove reflects on periods of creative funk, the importance of learning from mistakes rather than dwelling on failure, and rediscovering pure joy in creation—especially with his directorial debut on “Summer of Soul” (41:14–44:53).

  "You can't create like that. You got to do what's really in your heart and, you know, mistakes. You got to have a great relationship with mistakes." – Questlove (44:42)

6. Closing Thoughts & Creative Advice

• Words for Creatives:
  Questlove encourages listeners—most likely creators themselves—to trust their instincts, embrace missteps, and avoid letting external pressures dictate their art (43:45–44:53).

  "If you're creative... it has to come from your heart and your gut. You have to love this. Not just blah, blah, blah's hot or I'm gonna make money off this shit." – Questlove (44:53)

• Open Mike Eagle’s Tribute:
  The host closes with gratitude and recognition of Questlove’s impact on fans and fellow artists (45:54–46:29).

  "Regardless of the factors that were going on in your life... the things y'all made really, truly inspired people. So thank you." – Open Mike Eagle (45:54)

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Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• Questlove on Dilla’s Genius
  “Dilla was so good that you just instantly knew it was an honor… I knew at that point, I’m gonna be the Dilla historian.” – (11:05)

• Questlove on the End of Movements "Whenever something gets declared, flag planting—no, it's actually the end of the sentence." – (32:23)

• Questlove on Creativity and Failure
  "You can't create like that. You got to do what's really in your heart and, you know, mistakes. You got to have a great relationship with mistakes." – (44:42)

• Open Mike Eagle on Questlove's Influence
  "Regardless of the factors... the things y’all made really, truly inspired people. So thank you." – (45:54)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:08—04:13: Open Mike Eagle’s first meeting and connection with Questlove
• 09:13—15:00: The creative genesis of Things Fall Apart and Dilla’s memory
• 16:30—27:27: Album intros, hidden tracks, and Questlove’s Easter egg process
• 31:33—32:23: Soulquarian photo and the start of the movement’s end
• 34:03—38:35: Dave Chappelle’s Block Party as Soulquarians’ goodbye
• 39:22—40:05: New critical landscape and The Roots’ shifting audience
• 41:14—44:53: Questlove’s advice on creativity, learning, and fulfillment
• 45:54—46:29: Host’s final tribute and closing gratitude

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Memorable Moments

• Dilla’s Phone Call: The story of Dilla memorizing and recreating a song after only hearing it three times.
• Album Easter Eggs: Questlove’s elaborate process of creating multiple album versions filled with hidden touches.
• Soulquarians’ Accidental Branding: The collective never intended to be branded, and public perception ultimately changed internal dynamics.
• Block Party’s Bittersweet Gathering: Chappelle’s Block Party provided the last iconic stage for the original Soulquarians.
• Questlove’s Honest Creative Lessons: Encouraging a healthy relationship with mistakes and focusing on process over outside judgment.

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Final Words & Takeaway

The finale is both a nostalgic celebration and a realistic, unvarnished look at artistry, collaboration, and change. Questlove urges artists—and everyone—to honor their creative instincts, embrace what unfolds, and recognize that true legacy comes from heart-driven work, not public accolades or media narratives.

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Transcript

[Questlove]

Y', all, here we are. Here we are. Ladies and gentlemen, and. And everyone, we are at the finale of season four of what had happened was the. The end of our season long sit down with the one and only Quest Love. And wow, it really did take a lot to make this come together. So I want to send out a few giant shout outs. Shout out to Amir Questlove himself for his desire to even want to do this, man. So I got to rap over one of Questlove beats. Quest loves Beats. Had to be like 2016 or 17. MC Paul Barman had me get on a song with him that happened to be produced by Questlove. So shout out to MC Paul Barman. And that was really the only direct connection to Questlove I had outside of just being a fan. And then I want to quickly tell y' all a story how me and Questlove actually met. It was south by Southwest. It had to be 2018, south by Southwest, me and Video Dave, we're going to do some shows out there. A lot of it was centered around the announcement of the new Negroes with Comedy Central that me and Baron Vaughn were working on at the time. So Comedy Central sent us out there to do a bunch of shows for south by southwest. It's either 18 or 19, I can't remember which year. But we're at the airport bar and we look over and we're like, hey, this motherfucking Questlove over there. We're like, holy shit, that is Questlove on the other side of the bar. And, you know, usually I would just kind of note something like that and keep it pushing. But then I thought about it, like, oh, I kind of. I got a song of one of his Beats, so he's at least aware of me. I would assume that Ball Barman had to clear this somehow. So I figured there should be at least some awareness there. So that gave me the confidence to go say what up? So me and Dave go say what up To Questlove. Dad Pug is, oh, yeah, what up? You know, some awareness. But it was all good. And then turns out we're all flying to Austin for South by Southwest. Turns out we're on the same plane. And because Comedy Central is sending me out there, I get to fly first class. And when I get on, the person sitting one seat in front and to the right of me is Questlove himself. I'm like, oh, shit, that's tight. So I'm sitting behind him. So, you know, not much opportunity for interaction, but, you know, so what up? And another, you know, winking a nod or whatever. And then two ladies get my attention. It is one actress, Jodie Foster, and another woman who I don't remember her name, but they were asking me if I would switch seats with them, if I would sit in the seat that they were supposed to sit in so that they could sit together. And this in my seat, in the seat that was next to me in first class. And then apparently the seat that Jody Foster was supposed to sit in was the one next to Questlove. So I was like, oh, hell yeah, I'll switch seats with you. And I told Questlove when I was switching seats, I said, hey, you know, I'm about to bother the hell out of you, right? So we switch seats and I sit there and, you know, we say, you know, a couple of words to each other. But within five minutes of takeoff, Questlove is knocked the out. I mean, us fast asleep. Like. Like, he does this. So I'm like, ah, well, okay, there goes all that potential interaction I was. I was looking forward to in my fortuitous seat placement. But it was all good, though. But while we're in the air, I was like, you know what? At the very least, I'm gonna see if. We see if. If he's down, exchange numbers. So when we landed and he woke up, that's what we did. That was all good. So I'm like, cool.

[Black Thought]

All right.

[Questlove]

Well, you know, that was. That was a little fun interaction. I get off the plane and I'm getting off the plane and I'm waiting for video Dave. And as I am sitting, waiting for Dave, Questlove gets off the plane. He got off after me, and he is walking towards me and I'm like, what's this about? And he's got a laptop in his hand. I had left my laptop in the seat back pocket in front of me. Completely just left it and he saw it and he brought it to me, thus saving my entire fucking south by Southwest weekend. All of the programming, all of the show, everything that I planned to do that weekend was very dependent on that laptop. And I don't know. I don't know what the process would have been of me trying to get it back or when I would have even realized I didn't have it. So that was potentially a verdict disaster thanks to Questlove. But that's how me and him met, was him saving my ass. And he is not lying when he says he was a fan of the podcast. He would text me about it going back to the first season and post about it on his enormous social media platforms way before we ever talked about him actually being on it. And when I did decide to step to him about it, he actually pitched me a very fucking incredible way to do it. I can't reveal what he pitched. We weren't able to bring that together. But. And I don't want to reveal it because someday, if. If him and I ever sit down again, we might actually do it that way, which would be awesome. But needless to say, when I read the pitch that he pitched me, it was a text and I was in a tour van. And when I read it, almost busted through the ceiling of the tour van, leaping in the air. And I showed the text to Dave and he almost jump through the ceiling as well. But just big shout out to Amir for, you know, being available and. And making the space in his very busy schedule to do this. And shout out to him for providing the beats to these intros for these episodes. Again, from his infinitely creative mind. He was like, oh, we should do a new theme every episode. And I was like, hell yeah, we should do a new theme every episode. And then I realized I was not going to be able to do that at all, as it would have driven me insane. We got four, though. We got four intros. We got one for each Roots album we cover. And it's continuing our tradition on what had Happened was where every season we do an intro produced by the guest. And that is very cool. And I want to give a huge shout out to super editor Rob Van Vranken. He's responsible for the brilliant drops and cutting and mixing in each episode. The man is truly a magician, and he tagged in this season in place of our former super editor, Jake Bowman, who held it down with his amazing work on the previous three seasons. And I want to give a shout out to our distribution partners over at Talkhouse for the support and shout out to you for listening and tweeting and posting on Instagram stories and reposting clips and enthusiastically, enthusiastically letting folks know what we got going on over here. I cannot tell you how rewarding it is to see evidence of people enjoying these conversations as much as I do. Shout out Stony Island Audio. That's this podcast network home to the dad Bob Rap Pod, Creativity in Captivity, stories about songs with Kevin Beachum, Super Duty, tough work with Blueprint Interlogic, the Fatherhoods podcast, the Questions Hip Hop Trivia podcast. And we got a whole podcast with the Roots crew's own Dice Raw on the network called the Raw Report if you like this rude stuff. And with that, let's get into it. This is the finale. Episode 13, season 4. What is a soul? Query 1, 2, 1, 2. Yeah.

[Black Thought]

Hey.

[Questlove]

Go. The song's all about things fall apart. You know, like bad actors make scenes fall apart. You know, like poorly built machines fall apart. He's smart. But then things unseen fall apart Hip hopping since the first beat dropped and the park was sparked. It's all facts, not shots in the dark, you know, it's like best laid plans fall apart Names boy your one last chance fell apart Big bang the whole universe expanded apart we beat the last podcast Standing apart in check Prosecution whole case fell apart DJ turn up the base the whole place fell apart Questa what had happened was state of the art. Could have hangers at the end. It can't wait till it starts. Today we're hearing all about Dane's Fall apart. Mikey under pressure 16 follow shit. So what had happened was part four, season four. Things fall apart just like they. Just like they did right there.

[Black Thought]

So the day that I worked on the album intro, but we don't even come to see our album, man, this musical backdrop, funny story about this. It's a lazy, right? So this music you hear in the background, this was like maybe two weeks after d' Angelo had created the route for Vudu. And to be there to hear this thing get made. He made it with Charlie Hunter, my drums. I went on the road and he's like, yo, yo, you gotta hear what we did to it. You gotta hear what we did to it. And he plays it. And I'm just like, shit, Charlie Hunter is playing. He's a guitar player that plays bass and guitar at random. So when you're hearing Spanish Joint, he's playing the bass with his right hand and the guitar with his four fingers, maybe his thumb, I don't know. But I don't know how that happened. I don't know how. He's playing bass tandem with the guitar at the same time. One. One take through. And it was one of them days where Dilla was at the studio. We're back at Electric Lady, New York, and he plays it for us. He plays it for us maybe like three times in a row, right? Dilla leaves heads immediately to LaGuardia, gets back to Detroit. Dilla calls me at one in the morning and he's like, yo, man, he's like, that song, Fuck me Up. I said, dawg, I'm on this record and it fucked me up. He's like, yo, yo, I want you to check out something. And he puts the phone through the speaker and sure enough, he doesn't. Dee's not making us cassette copies. We're not making copies of this shit. We heard it three times. And Dilla had to run to the studio. Suddenly, the drums. And suddenly. And I'm like, wait, what happened? He's like, yo, man. He's like, I just hummed that. I hummed what I heard to myself on the way to the airport, the entire three hour flight home on my way. And I just had to get it out my head just so I can keep hearing out of here. He nailed that shit verbatim. Dill is so good that you can't get jealous of him. Anyone else I'm feeling some sort of way like, oh, you think you better than us? But he was so good that you just instantly knew it was an honor for you. Like, I knew. The only thing I couldn't call was his premature exit. But I knew at that point. I'm gonna be the Dilla historian and I'm taking note of every historical moment that ever happens with this guy. So there was never a casual moment I've ever had where it's just like, I'm falling asleep and what you working on? Like, I know. I'm watching history. Every creative move he does, I'm looking at every record he uses. I'm looking at how he does it. I'm everything. I've. I've noted everything. So. But I'm like. I asked, I said, how did you remember that? He says, man, I just. I kept that song in my head until I got home and then got to my keyboard and figured out what he did. And that's exactly what he did. I was like, yes, that's Exactly. And it's 11 o', clock, I'm back in Philly. And I'm like, why am I not that smart? Hour later, I'm like, dave Ivory, yo. I said, can you go to the studio? I gotta. I gotta try something. Like, I'm like, I gotta try this. So this is the first. This is the only time I pull some print shit where it's like, you know, you always hear the story, like three in the morning, he calls me, he's like, get to the studio. I gotta do something. Like, I'm respectful of people's time and all that stuff. But I'm like, no. So I run to the studio and I'm like, can I do that? Like, I'm on the route. I know the song well. Dilla only heard it three times. Can I do that and I tried to do it and it didn't work. So the way that I felt like a complete failure, like, I'm not at this Olympic level of beat making thing. So my thing is that if something is a failure, then maybe it could work backwards.

[Questlove]

Ah, that's how you got the intro music.

[Black Thought]

So literally. So I got the baseline. Right. I mean, that don't sound bad.

[Questlove]

You feel like it was a fail, though, because it could.

[Black Thought]

It just. You know what it was. So there's a local furniture outlet in Philadelphia. This is gonna be really random to anybody that's my age in Tri State. Big Marty's Carpets or whatever is like a furniture outlet. He has a very similar, like, Price is Righty melodic parallel to that song. So I think in my mind I'm trying to remember what d' Angelo did. I'm fucked up. That Dilla mirrored it exactly. And now furniture commercial from 1974 is entering my head and. No. Was that the right court? Was that the thing? Well, I know the baseline's right, but what about the. Ah, fuck. Ah. I'm a failure. And so I gave up. And so at the very last minute, we were mastering on September 28, 1998, which is Equimani Day. Love movement day. Now you caught my heart for the evening Kiss my cheek move Then you confuse things Should I just sit out or come harder? Help me find my way Black star day. Brand new being foundation day. And hard knock life day.

[MC Paul Barman]

We get tricks, static, kisses, we get kickstarter. From standing on the corners bopping to driving some of the hottest cars New York has ever seen for dropping some of the hottest verses rappers ever heard.

[Black Thought]

And most importantly, it is the great day in hip hop XXL photoshoot day. So the day that I'm gonna master this album is that day.

[Questlove]

Wow.

[Black Thought]

So the night before, I just decided to go to the studio to finish. I know I'm gonna do five versions of this record. I decide I'm gonna do a lot of Easter eggs, like for the. For the interludes and things like that. You know, on five different records there might be like, something that's slightly different and, you know, that sort of thing. Different hidden song at the end.

[Questlove]

Different hidden song.

[Black Thought]

Are you kidding me? Yeah. So that hurts. Yeah. So those that have all five records will see all Easter eggs everywhere. And, you know, I decided I was going to do the moabetta blues thing alone. But nah, I need. I need something musical. And I just saw the aquin. I saw my failed root attempt from, like, months ago. I was like, put on the reel backwards and I'll use that as the thing. So there's that and the last thing, I went home and then I was like, fuck, there's two more things we need. Okay, so there's one story I forgot to tell you. I forgot about Ain't saying nothing new. So as I explained earlier, the way the record cycle is, you have to turn your record three months ahead of time. So knowing that we have a February release, you gotta turn your record in at least by November for parts and credits and all that stuff. But because this is a five record thing, we have to get in line as far as the plants are concerned. So it's basically like MCA wants this record by like August and it's already September and we're losing our spot in the pressing plant to make this plan come alive. And so by this point I'm feeling confident that we have a good record. And my publicist is like, okay, the source is gonna come down to do a feature story. So automatically I'm like, cover story, cover story. They're like, no, it's not the COVID story. And I'm like, fuck. But I don't care. I want the Leap review. And I think, yeah, even though I feel like this is a five mic record, I only want four and a half mics. We got our four and a half mics for Ill Adelf Half Life, which was like the way that I celebrated because the first time around Southern Playlistic Cadillac Music got four and a half mics. And do you want more? Only got four. And now Reverse at Aliens got four. And we got four and a half. So again, I'm just creatively, just, just on small levels, I'm creatively, you know, competitive. And so in my mind I'm like, this has to be another four and a half mic review record. And plus they just got a five. They got a five for equipment. So I'm like, all right, I'm coming with my five. And so they send, they send the, the writer down. And I'm thinking like, it's going to be like one of the, the, the, the A list here writers. Is it Selwyn Hines? Is it going to be Ron and Row? Is it going to be like the names that we know? And they're like, nah, it's Kim Masario. I'm like, who the hell is that? And she walked in, I was like, oh, man, they sticked an intern on us. Like, oh man, what does she know about the Roots? And it's, and it's Already I'm triggered because I got word, I think, on the air, if you know who Minya oh is. Minya oh is part of the original Source, like, Mind Squad. Like, she's the one who gave Nas five mics, I see, under the name of Shorty. And someone told me that they overheard her saying, like, you know, I don't get groups like the Roots. Like, you know, we got lumped into, like, the. They're one of them. Like, cool Keith, ultra magnetic. Like, Wordy, Basically, those fat beats.

[Questlove]

I see underground backpacker type, right?

[Black Thought]

Not like, n. Even though Nas is on that side of the thing. You know, whatever. Nas is cute or Method Man's cute or. And I'm not. I'm not being sexist, reductive of saying, like, well, you know, there's a certain type of rapper that attracts a particular demographic, and then we just get dismissed as, like, whatever. Those guys are just boring, ribbity, rhyming people. But in my mind, I was like, this is not the John Schechter of the Source. I wanted a writer that I knew, that I studied. And so in my mind, I'm just like. And she didn't know much history about the group or any of those things. And I'm just like, ah, man, if she's doing our feature, all right, let me make a. Let me do a horse and pony show. So I was like, all right, Dave, put a fresh reel up, and Scott happened to walk by. I said, ah, Scott, Scott, Scott, come in. Where you headed? Go in the crib. I said, just give me like a half hour. Let's make a track real quick. And I'm just trying to. I at least want to control the narrative of what if she don't know much about us, then I already know that. You have to create the story that you want to read from the Source.

[Questlove]

You basically have to write the narrative yourself, right?

[Black Thought]

And so instead of leaving it up to her, I'm like, all right, you're coming to Philadelphia and you're going to watch us make a track. And plus, I needed a song that was going to blend into Double Trouble because I didn't like the way that Without a Doubt sounded blending into Double Trouble. So I was like, I need a bridge song to connect. All right? So I don't know. I just thought of my head. Let me make. All right, let me. What I'll do is I will make a song based on Take it personal. So I basically start, you know. You know, I was like, well, we start every song with the drums First, So.

[Questlove]

Boom. Yeah, okay, right?

[Black Thought]

So just the drums wise. I'm like, so we start with drums first, and then, you know, Scott then starts playing. And then, you know, I was just trying to pull out every trick I knew. So then the. The kalimba. That was from Double Trouble. A week before I grabbed the kalimba and, you know, did Amir 101, you know, show tricks. Like, hey, put the reel backwards. And, you know, I'm singing backwards. You know, whatever. So. So all of this, like, is me talking backwards.

[Questlove]

Oh, okay.

[Black Thought]

I just wanted to make a demonstration song for her to write about and then send her on her merry way. Like, okay, I saved that feature again. Tariq just happened to come by the studio or something. Like, they work on anything. Oh, this song. Hey, I'll take that. And I didn't intend on Ain't say Nothing New to be on the record, but here it is.

[MC Paul Barman]

Cassettes, no cods, and checks straight from the old school Ayo raws. I'm like Lex Luthor. Went right through Spill but Kryptonite, when you grip the mic, it's like, come on, kids, let's say good night. You don't like me but don't even know why you should hate me. You scared to face these. So I still remain safely confided North Phil while I'm a side.

[Black Thought]

Here's the thing, though. I still don't have something that leads me from Without a Doubt to Ain't Saying Nothing New. I need a. I need an interlude or something that. That. That makes it. And so time is of the essence. I know that we have to get up to Harlem to be on time for Gordon Parks shot of the great day in Harlem.

[Questlove]

Right, right, right.

[Black Thought]

And then as soon as that shot is done, I gotta immediately run to Tom Coynes to start mastering this record. But I need something that leads me from Without a Doubt to Ain't this new song that ain't saying Nothing New. And I called up Schooly D, and I was like, well, since we did Saturday night, you know, from your record, like an homage to Saturday night, then can you come down and do the. The tail end of that? Which was like, some call it chiba, Some call it weed. It's the killers of the thrill is the need. Chiba. Chiba.

[Questlove]

Y', all, y', all, y', all, y', all, y'.

[Black Thought]

All. Yeah, yeah. Some call it weed. It's a killer. It's a filler. It's a.

[Questlove]

The thing that you need some cheaper.

[Black Thought]

Cheaper, y', all, y', all. Yeah, yeah. You know me and my man. And I was like, all right, can you get to the studio at 9 in the morning? Yeah, yeah, I'll be there. Sure enough. No schoolie. And I'm like, well, like, I need this interlude done in a timely fashion. And the engineer was like, well, you got a good voice. And like, I didn't want to do nothing after you Ain't Fly. I was like, I don't want my voice on it.

[Questlove]

You retired after you Ain't Fly.

[Black Thought]

Yeah. So then maybe in like a half hour, I made this. Come on. All right, so by the way, for the. The Easter egg version of it. So one of those four, I believe the clean version of Things Fall Apart. Same interlude pitched up.

[Questlove]

Ain't that some shit?

[Black Thought]

Which will be still be in the same key.

[Questlove]

This is fucking expertly crafted.

[Black Thought]

Yeah, I'm just an Easter egg guy. And so I made that within, like, a half hour. We got on the road this great day in Harlem. Shot with every. This is the first time that we're meeting rappers.

[Rakim]

On September 29, 1988, an unprecedented gathering of hip hop artists was held in Harlem's 126th Street. Organized by XXL magazine, the event came in the shadow of the deaths a few years before of the Notorious B.I.G. and Tupac Shakur. Hip hop was in need of healing, and a photograph taken by the legendary Gordon Parks became part of that process.

[Black Thought]

Soon as we got out the car, Rakim runs up to Tariq, is like, yo, thought you are my favorite emcee.

[Questlove]

Come on, man.

[Black Thought]

And it's 1998.

[Questlove]

Did he play it cool? Did Thal play it cool?

[Black Thought]

I mean, he was just like. We were just. Cause this was the exact opposite of what life was before, right? And we're literally the first time. Like, yo, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, yo. Oh, my God, Fat Joe, Yo, Bone Thugs and Harmony, yo. Like, we're just meeting them all and you know. And shout out to Sheena Lester. I was like, all right. Based on reading Vanity Fair foldouts. Let me know which one's the COVID He's like, stoop number two. So I, like, immediately ran A to student number two and just stayed there. I was like, I'm being on the COVID of xxl. God damn it. So when it was over, we went to Tom Coynes. I mastered and sequenced five versions of this record and then came up with a crazy idea that I heard that Radiohead did this thing where to prevent bootlegging of their. The album before Kid A.

[Questlove]

Okay, computer.

[Black Thought]

They sealed their cassettes and CDs inside of a discman. So since Universal had stake in, like, a Walkman company, I was like, well, let's just get 200 walkmen and we'll crazy glue all the Walkmen together, make sure it's auto reverse. And this is how the press is going to listen to the record. But of course, the press would just take the Walkman and crash it to the ground. Yeah, I got you. You know, you're tape. And so pretty much the stars were aligned. And it came out February 23rd, the night that Lauren won all those Grammys. And we were just really in a great space as a band, as a unit. Like, the magic's working. Like, I'm asleep and listening to modern commercial radio, and I hear you got me like six times a day. And, you know, we. There's a gold plaque. There's a platinum plaque. What, like a million people collectively agreed to listen to this and paid for it, too? Yeah. And it's just like. It just. It just kept happening. And then, like, you know, and then Voodoo came out, and then Mama's Gun came out, and then, like, Blackstar, like.

[Questlove]

All the water for chocolate.

[Black Thought]

Yeah, yeah, Like, Waterford chocolate's coming out, and it's like the movement. Yeah, everything's working. And then Vibe magazine approaches me and says, hey, you know, we want to do a feature on you because, like, you're connected to all these movements or whatever.

[Questlove]

Oh, I know what this.

[Black Thought]

Me being in my smallness, I was just like, look, man, it's not about me. It's about the family. It is like, let's all. Let's all do it together and da, da, da, da. So, you know, that issue, that Dr. Dre Eminem issue? In the beginning, it's the roots with the Philly family, plus, you know, Jill Scott's records coming out. So there's that. And, you know, she's, you know, taking photos with us, and then pages later. Is that soulquarian's photo?

[Questlove]

Yes, it is.

[Black Thought]

And then the issue comes out, and then everybody, man, like, what's a. So query? And I'm. I'm not a Soquarian. Like, I was born in March.

[Questlove]

Okay. So it was. It wasn't necessarily supposed to be like a coming out for a branded.

[Black Thought]

Well, you know, the thing was, I was trying to not make it. Even though I was in the eye of many storms. Part of my narrative is just deflecting praise and deflecting being singled out. So I just told them, like, there's a bigger story if you do it about this Unit. And we're all working together. We didn't know what to call the thing, you know, but we, you know, me, James and Dilla were like, hey, we're all born in January and February, so we're the soulquarian. So it was like the soulquarian sound. But, you know, most definitely objected to that, and Tip objected to that, and Erica objected to that, and it was a sore spot. And when that photo came out, that was the end of the movement.

[Questlove]

Damn.

[Black Thought]

It felt like the beginning. Whenever a movement comes, it's the end. Saturday Night Fever should be the beginning of disco's rise, but it's the end. Thriller, that's the end. Woodstock, that's the end. Purple Rain, that's the end. You know what I mean? Like, whenever something gets declared. Flag planning. No, it's actually the end of the sentence.

[Questlove]

Damn. Was Midnight Marauders the end of the Natives that cover.

[Black Thought]

You know what? Yes. Because really, in my mind, I felt the end was coming with Blue Mind State.

[Questlove]

Yeah, of course.

[Black Thought]

But of course, as with De La Soul Is Dead, like, three months later, Tribe's like, nope, watch these numbers, son. And essentially, yes, that. That marked the end of it. So, no, I mean, we still, like, toured with each other and fucked with each other, and we may follow up Records. But I will say that by the time when we got to Electric Circus, then the perception was like, you killed Common, Amir. The truth is, really, MCA was imploding, and he released a record, and two weeks later, there was no more label.

[Questlove]

So they could. They couldn't work it.

[Black Thought]

Yeah, they didn't work it.

[Questlove]

Because I love that album, dude.

[Black Thought]

It's a masterpiece.

[Questlove]

Yeah.

[Common]

My eyes watch God From a place where times is hard times we embrace everybody Water yard. Cause yard means space Being broke is odd it leaves the odd taste in the mouth of the metropolitan the hustle is hollering beautiful.

[Black Thought]

And it took years, decades to go by for people to really be unanimous. I was always on board for that. Nah, man. Y' all thought I ruined that shit. The moment when I really felt it was over, and I talk about this a lot, is I felt like my funeral was Dave Chappelle's block. Party. Dk.

[MC Paul Barman]

That's what's happening on stage.

[Black Thought]

This is when I knew it was over. So, you know, like, we're in Brooklyn and, you know, Dave is red hot. Dave is, like, at the. At just.

[Questlove]

Chappelle's show is peaking.

[Black Thought]

Yeah, like, this is prime Rick James, bitch. Like, he's God at this moment.

[MC Paul Barman]

What is the five fingers Say to the face what slap. Everybody can call get that shit on me.

[Black Thought]

So there's a charged energy in the air. And it's sort of like, you know, because in the beginning, my management was like, well, you do realize that this is our movement getting carjacked. Like, this is the jam sessions that we put together. That's now. But I was just like, yo, man, this is being the moment. Like, this is good. So we're like, all right, we'll play ball. So we're there, and then we're sound checking. So pretty much, like, the crowd is kept at bay like, four blocks down, but they can faintly see, like, while we're like, sound checking and all that stuff. And Kanye has to come in on. He came in Teterboro private chat, because he's opening for Usher on the Confessions tour. His album is about to come out.

[Questlove]

Wow.

[Black Thought]

So the buzz on through the Wire and all that stuff. Like, all that buzz is about to. This guy's about to be big. And then suddenly, the chaos and pandemonium from four blocks away. Once they re. Once they see that's Kanye and John Legend, like, just sound checking.

[MC Paul Barman]

Tom up to him up. Gave it up for none other than Kanye, AKA Kanye West.

[Black Thought]

Come on, make some noise.

[MC Paul Barman]

Make some noise. And next thing, Mike Jack, your Lexus, somebody. Teddy who? Kanye Weston. I walk through the valley of the shower.

[Black Thought]

It was such a charged energy of. Of the Beatles on Sullivan level that none of us ever got before. And he was literally there just to do his part. And then he had to leave and take a flight back out to Usher to do the Confessions tour. And I don't know. I was like, wow. Like, hmm. That's wow. Maybe this is the end of the movement. Cause another thing that was happening was, like, I was working on B. Got about a good six songs in that I thought were cool, but it was sort of. It was the triggering of the stench of I ruined Common. Maybe we should go where the heat is.

[Questlove]

When you went towards Kanye.

[Black Thought]

Hey, man, look, man. Bruh, like, we're gonna let Kanye, like.

[Questlove]

Take this a Runway.

[Black Thought]

Take the anchor.

[Common]

Memories on corners with the foes and the moles Watch out the store for the rolls Talking straight forward to hoes Got uncle Zach smoking some blow up they nose to cope with their lows the wind is cold and it blows in they socks and they souls Niggas holding they rolls corners leave souls open opened and closed Hoping for mo with nowhere to go Rolling in droves they shoot the wrong way Cause they ain't knowing they Goes the streets ain't safe.

[Black Thought]

And Kanye basically, you know, he's like, well, you know, Dylan's coming with me and James Porce is coming with me and Moses coming with me.

[Questlove]

Everybody but you.

[Black Thought]

Yeah. And I was just like, I was. It was like the end of the Flintstones where the. The dinosaur kick spread out of his own crib. That day, I knew this was the last time that we were all going to be together. I just knew that, like, this is the end of a movement. We got to figure out what we're going to do, you know, because we caught a lot of shots with a tipping point. Like, our Lewis, a new guard had come in, a guard named Pitchfork, you know, with these. With these, like, these hip, college educated, hipster white guys that don't exactly look like they're hanging in the neighborhoods of the music that they're championing.

[Questlove]

Right.

[Black Thought]

Like, wow, you're such a cocaine rap enthusiast, but you.

[Questlove]

You live in Williamsburg.

[Black Thought]

Yeah. I'm like, how has that happened? And stuff?

[Questlove]

So.

[Black Thought]

And I feel like part of ripping down the Roots was basically burn the emperor's old clothes and whatever the old guard, like. And that was sort of the thing, like. And someone from Pitchfork called it out, like, well, the Roots are the group that white people that don't like hip hop, like. And so I don't know, man, we just took our ball, went home, and, you know, it was a good run. But I knew that that movement was over in 2004.

[Questlove]

Well, speaking of over, our time is.

[Black Thought]

Just about what a way to end the series.

[Questlove]

But this is the thing. This is the thing, right? This is the end of what I consider to be probably our first time together. Maybe down the line we can get another round in and unpack the rest of the.

[Black Thought]

There's so many other stories.

[Questlove]

I mean.

[Black Thought]

Cause obviously a lot happened between 2004 and now. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's. There's.

[Questlove]

There's a ton. There's. There's Fallon, there's Oscar.

[Black Thought]

Yeah, I forgot about that. Multiple canons. Yeah. And then. And I won an Oscar, so.

[Questlove]

Exactly.

[Black Thought]

But I. But I do think.

[Questlove]

I do think it was important to zoom in on this era and really talk about these first four albums and how they set the table for everything that was to come. And before we shut down, I just quickly want to say. Cause there's a lot of people that we talked about who are no longer with us. So. Rest in peace to Dilla. Rest in Peace to Rich.

[Black Thought]

Yes.

[Questlove]

Rest in Peace to Malik B. And Rest in peace to Leonard Hubbard. Just definitely wanted to make sure we poured out some verbal liquor for them because they live in these stories, but they no longer with us.

[Black Thought]

Absolutely.

[Questlove]

But anything else you want to leave people with?

[Black Thought]

What I want to leave people with for those that. I would imagine that if you're listening to this podcast and you're putting up with the insane amount of wordplay in the hours that we've put in my voice and telling these stories, I think.

[Questlove]

They want it real bad.

[Black Thought]

Then I would say nine times out of 10, you are some sort of creative. So for me, I will say the full circle moment in life, for me, that's brought me to the place where, yes, we're now making music that has me extremely excited. If. And this is not my Scooby Doo ending, if it weren't for that pesky Oscar, you would have been had the 17th Roots album. But I didn't see the Oscar coming into. You know, my plan was like, okay, let me put this movie together, and it will be done in, like, three, four months, and then I can get ready on the record and we're almost done, and then I have a new life. So I will basically say that there was a sort of creative funk I was in in 2004 once. Like, I got kicked out my own. Or at least me, I kicked myself out of my own movement. And then kind of the absence of a lot of, you know, D' Angelo taking 14 years between records and all that stuff. And then on top of that, you know, just really, like, the death of Dilla made me not want to create music anymore. And, you know, I just. When I got to make Summer of Soul, because I made it with the same mind state that I made Organics or that I did with the same mind state that I did those south street jam sessions, which is like, oh, this is gonna be fun. Like, there's no way. If you would've told me. If someone had told me, okay, look, you don't know this, but these 40 hours of footage that you got, this is going to result in an Oscar, which is then going to result in you directing anything you ever wanted to direct. And now running a movie empire like this whole other narrative that I'd never dreamed for myself, then I probably would have gotten in my own way and figured out a way to sabotage it and got in my own head and all the writers block and freezing and holding up time because the stakes would.

[Questlove]

Have been too high.

[Black Thought]

Yeah. And instead I realized that this is Summer Soul was the first product I Made without thinking about, hey, how many mics am I gonna get? I wonder what my Rotten Tomatoes score is gonna be. I wonder what my box office is gonna be.

[Questlove]

And you don't have to Wonder if the MCs in the next room are gonna like it.

[Black Thought]

Right? It's just, I did it for fun, clearly. I'm certain people, as you see with every episode, he has like page after page after page of questions. I probably let you get all the two questions out so it's clear that I'm a storyteller, a natural born griot. You know what I mean?

[Questlove]

But you have to have led the life you led to have the stories that you have, which are fucking incredible.

[Black Thought]

Yeah. So I, I just say to people who are creatives, and I won't say I squandered. I spent a lot of my creative time in my brain defensively fighting for this and losing sleep about my rating and, and survival and getting on the radio and, and managing people's expectations. And you can't create like that. You got to do what's really in your heart and, you know, mistakes. You got to have a great relationship with mistakes.

[Questlove]

That's real.

[Black Thought]

And, and get a new version for the F word. I don't say failure. I say, what's the lesson? I. What's, what's the teachable lesson?

[Questlove]

Right.

[Black Thought]

Okay, that didn't work. I now know that didn't work. So the opposite of what just happened should happen, you know, so that's, that's what I want people to know. That if you're creative, that's where the pureness of it, you have to, it has to come from your heart and your gut. You have to love this. Not just blah, blah, blah's hot or I'm gonna make money off this shit. We see where that leads us. Anybody who ever overachieved in this business, they're dead. So unless you're so nihilist that you don't envision a future for yourself after 43, 44, 57, 58, 59, you know, if you truly are saying, yeah, when, you know, when I, when I'm 90 years old and my grandkids, you gotta do shit in your heart. Cause when you get into that fight or flight, get in your own head, getting in your own way, taking failure bad. Now you have to self soothe and start drug habits and lying to yourself, that's where the downfall starts. So that's what I want people to take away.

[Questlove]

Well, just for somebody who, like I said, recited silent street treatment in my sophomore year choir class to writing a paper about Proceed 2 in my freshman college English class. Just want to say that regardless of the factors that were going on in your life and the things that you were fighting against, and you and your cohorts, the things y' all made, really, truly inspired people. So thank you. Thank you for what you've made. Thank you for being willing to talk about it, and thank you for sitting here and accepting these flowers.

[Black Thought]

Hate flowers. I appreciate that. I'm used to this now, so thank you, man.

[Questlove]

And with that, we say peace.

[Black Thought]

Stony island of Oregon.