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- [00:09]
A
Welcome to season four. Episode ten of what Had Happened was. I'm your host, Open Mike Eagle. We are in the home stretch. On this episode, we begin the final anime arc of this season, telling the story of the first four Roots albums. As we get into the story of the Roots breakthrough project, Things Fall Apart. This began the group's rise to national prominence. And according to this story, it starts with a strategy. The strategy, as described by Questlove, is grow your own crops. Fascinating. I'm gonna let Questlove explain it, though. Speaking of explanations, I'm on tour as of today, Wednesday, December 13th. If you're listening to this on the day it's released, I am in Boston tonight and we got Hampden, Connecticut, Miami and Orlando to go. PeteMikeagle.net for details. The show is part of the Stony Island Audio Podcast Network, the home for hip hop shows you can actually listen to, including stories about songs with Kevin Beacham, the Questions, Hip Hop Trivia podcast, and more. Support this podcast by using the codes in the ads or leaving us a 50,000 star rating on whatever podcast platform you listen to. And with that, we begin part one. If things fall apart, there will be two more parts y' all gonna get these cliffhangers. Ripping the bagpipes and this is the half life the grind like the lip of a half pipe and sharp like the tip of stalactites they wasn't clones though they punching your nose bone the roots roll tight like it's turbo in ozone no toes to price like Kamala the roads though blind the devil with the bold Black and gold travel through the. You would not verse with the comm sense the bomb shit give us 5 stars for the content. Push up the lighter to contend with the darkness is what had happened was Open Mike Eagle and Quest love for the Illadelph stories. This is the plug to have the roots got it all out the mud. This is your host, Open Mike Eagle.
- [02:38]
B
Season four.
- [02:38]
A
What had happened was. This is part three, Philadelphia Half Lifers. We keep changing the theme. It's like the anime. Something traumatic happens. All right, well, another. Another.
- [02:55]
B
Another loquacious nonsense.
- [02:59]
A
Another good creation agc.
- [03:01]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [03:02]
A
Just want to say for you, being the busiest man in showbiz, that we appreciate the time you've taken to give us all of this wonderful rap music and black man history. Gold.
- [03:17]
B
Okay, I'm gonna tell you why it's important. Cause right now I'm working on a whole bunch of product projects.
- [03:24]
A
Oh, imagine that you're working on a whole bunch of projects.
- [03:31]
B
I'm working on all these projects and I've noticed that the memory really gets selective and starts getting spotty around 65. So, you know, it's important. I'm certain my manager's like, why are you giving open mic?
- [03:49]
A
Yep.
- [03:50]
B
All these gold store. But that's not.
- [03:52]
A
Those aren't the exact words they use in the emails, but I hear that behind them.
- [03:56]
B
Right. But my thing is that, you know, especially in hip hop, people my age, you know, kind of eschew or try to duck and dodge their history because they feel like this means I'm old or that sort of thing. And then you're me asking a 82 year older, hey, tell me what it was like recording dance to the music. And then it's like, I don't know, we just came in the studio and had fun. So I rather. To me, this show is hip hop therapy, man. Like, good example is I'm reading Dante Ross's book right now and I just got to the Everlast chapter. Like, to me the whole canon of season two was just gold hearing his what had happened was episode. But to also read that book knowing. So I feel like this show is like hopefully going to coax people out of their caves. And I hope so too, share their stories.
- [04:57]
A
And I gotta say, for you, it's been a different kind of pleasure. Because I can say for the first three seasons of this show, I've had guests who to varying degrees, you could tell, is like difficult for them to look back. And not because of any mental faculties, but just that the way that their creativity seems to work is that they hyper focus on right now.
- [05:23]
B
Yeah. And also I feel like the hip hop nation isn't too keen on looking in the rearview mirror. Only if competition's behind them. Hey, let me see who's behind. Oh, no. Kanye West. You know that's me in 2004. But no, but I don't know. I think oftentimes people don't think that what they're doing is historical. That was the sort of the prevalent theme of what it was like to helm the hip hop 50 Grammy thing. I got a lot of, I'm good, dawg. I don't give a fuck. I'm like, yo, legacy and honor and we have a seat at the table. I'm cool, dog. Like, I got this college gig, like, you know, we're bird in a hand beats two in the bush. We're hustling, we're scheming and surviving, and we're really not thinking about history. And all those things. So hopefully, I feel like the paradigm shift is happening where we are less in fight or flight mode and trying to survive and that sort of thing and really just take time out to breathe and look at the accomplishments we had.
- [06:39]
A
Except the flowers.
- [06:41]
B
Except the flowers. And I'm a person notoriously known for ducking flowers.
- [06:45]
A
Well, you sat in the face. This is confrontational for you, then. This is immersive.
- [06:50]
B
This is therapy for me, man. This helped me grow as a person.
- [06:53]
A
Flowers.
- [06:53]
B
Every episode. Flowers. Yes, exactly. Exactly.
- [06:57]
A
Now, the flowers were given specifically, specifically in this episode just for the Roots fourth canon album, the breakthrough. Yeah, Things Fall Apart.
- [07:22]
C
But my state is that of a SP connection pin. See your part of me. South Philly, through my arteries or the The Dog.
- [07:30]
A
Released 2-23-99. In the wake of Ill Adel Halflife and last we left off, that album was just released. And since it was such a departure from the sound that y' all had established with the album before, I'm very curious of what your memory was like of the reception of ILF Halflife. Before we get into Things Fall Apart.
- [07:50]
B
There was hope. There was hope in the air. Like, is this the one? Is this our turn? I'm gonna tell you, man, every Roots album I've done, probably, maybe up until Rising Down, I would write a mock record review of. And I didn't know about, like, manifesting and being a vis all that stuff, but for me, it was just like, when we do an album, I gotta see it. And so I'll say that the beginning of every Roots album starts with the end of the last album. So there was hope in the air that what they do was really gonna push us right over the top. And for the most part, it did. I'll say that things fall apart. The initial Soundscan numbers were low, 300,000. Not exactly gold. But, you know, it was like, it's a start. We weren't fat. Beats Underground only sold 20,000 this week, so there was hope in the air that this was going to be the one. Now, the thing is, is that the last single from Ill Adelf, Half Life, while kind of a breakthrough moment for us artistically and commercially in terms of, like, getting some radio play video play that that's not the box or YOMTV raps, which by this point was off the air, but it's also kind of slightly marred with the fact that we left somewhat of a stain on our relationship with. With Biggie. Me not fully knowing that the video we just released is a direct reference.
- [09:45]
A
To One More Chance.
- [09:47]
B
His One More Chance video. And when confronted by the Source magazine to give a statement, which I took 24 hours to do, Selwyn Hines asked me to craft something to write in the source on March 8th. And I'm in Paris, right? And the morning of March 9th, in. In. In Paris, like, you know, 11 in the morning, which should be, I guess, maybe 4:00am New York time, which means that it's 1:00am LA time. I'm just getting the news that Biggie died an hour ago. And that messed with me so hard. So it's almost like I immediately took what they do out of rotation. Like, we didn't do it.
- [10:38]
A
You didn't play it live.
- [10:39]
B
Yeah. Cause even though I knew my intentions was never to bust shots at Biggie, the general world doesn't know that. You know what I mean? And so, plus, they think that that was our shot back at him because of his lisp and the flavor in your ear remix. He's given a reference to the Gooch who was Arnold's nemesis on Diff'ren're Strokes. But we never sort of like Snuffalufagus. Ask your parents. Kids sort of like Snuffalufagus. The Gooch was a character that we never saw.
- [11:15]
A
Never saw. Yeah.
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B
On Different Strokes. So he was like more Guns and Roses Invisible bully like the Goof Niggas is mad I get more butt than ashtrays Fuck a fair one I get mine the fast way Ski mask way Ransom notes far from handsome but damn.
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C
A to much more guns than roses.
- [11:36]
B
Foes is shaking in their boots A visible bully like the Goots disappear V you whack to me Take them rhymes back to the factory and then he goes off on this like your freestyle's whack to me so people just started saying the Ruth. And so, yeah, Tariq even called Bad Boy, like, hello. And like, reek, yo, dude, he's talking about the Gooch on Different Strokes. And they cleared it up, but the general public didn't know that. You know what I'm saying?
- [12:05]
A
Damn.
- [12:05]
B
Okay, so we thought we were gonna go gold, and we didn't. But it was also not discouraging. We were doing bigger nightclubs. We started out just as playing empty bars. And you're playing for the bouncers and the bar staff. And then they tell their friends, now you're playing. You know, club capacity might be 2000 and it's 700 people. But now those 700 people have told at least 10 people. So now we can play 3000 to 5000 and they know the words. Yeah. So we have an absolute following. And so not to mention the kind of fight or flight mode that I was in in terms of being told we want to make this a traditional hip hop record and less jazzy and cutesy. That do youo Want More was which I was absolutely against. It wound up being a cohesive record. So we just basically toured and toured more. And I also started the seed planting for. I guess now you could say that I'm a universe that has two planets, or I'm a planet that has two moons, which is the Roots. And now Questlove, which wasn't a thing. Where it wasn't like I was in the mirror at the beginning of 8 mile. Like, yo, I gotta do this.
- [13:37]
A
Just trying different ways to put the afro pick. Yeah.
- [13:40]
B
It was just that I knew I wanted to find my tribe.
- [13:46]
A
Right. Musically.
- [13:47]
B
Yeah, musically. Like, where. Where are my friends? Where. Where's my circle of eight? You know, Common seems like he's gonna be cool and Dela's cool and, you know, Tip is now opening up and record shopping and all.
- [14:00]
A
You bet, Dilla at this point already.
- [14:03]
B
Yeah. So we. We. So I'll say that probably in touring the biggest tour that we've done previously, we do like, you know, 60% Europe, 20% American colleges, 20%, someone's gonna let us open for them. And now, finally, it's Illadelph. Half Life is allowing us to tip the scales a little bit. So now it's 55% in the States, which, you know, more clubs, more opening up for other acts. People are getting hip to us. And I'll say that that really starts with open them for the Fugees on the Score Tour. And because they're becoming the darlings of 1996 and 97, all those luminaries are there to see. The Fugees are seeing their really great opening act, the Roots. So we're absolutely relentless. No spot nor wrinkle. So as a result, they land one of the first black festivals in our lap, which is something called Smoking Grooves.
- [15:04]
A
Oh, yes. The legendary Smoking Grooves tour.
- [15:06]
B
Do you have any idea where this.
- [15:07]
A
Is name came from?
- [15:08]
B
It was a lot of conversations watching Jim Carrey.
- [15:13]
C
Smoking. Mean, great groove, you know? Yeah, really it.
- [15:27]
A
Groove.
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C
Tomorrow. Where is your best tomorrow?
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B
Every time we show that and every time we pop love.
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C
For me, it's like.
- [15:44]
B
It's like having tickets to see the Chicago Bulls every day. You know, I get to see all my favorite bands. Buster Tribe, Fuji Ziggy, where all the hip Hoppers at.
- [15:53]
C
Where all the hip hoppers at up in here?
- [15:57]
B
Yeah. So. And it's a nice balance. It's kind of weird because on that bill, Foxy Brown by the numbers is the biggest selling artist. But like she's the opening act. She's brand new. She's doing like 15 minutes. You know what I mean? Come on. There's outkast. Okay.
- [16:35]
C
Don't call the money.
- [16:36]
B
Yes, sir. Too fuck the show.
- [16:37]
C
A couple of years ago on Headland and the low.
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B
What's the starter? Something good. When me and my partner rode the water through the hood. There's Erykah Badu. A pregnant Erykah Badu.
- [16:53]
C
I want a rim shot. Hey, Diggy, diggy rim shot.
- [16:59]
B
Come on. There's brand new heavies. And so we're like playing sheds now and really, really finding out our audience in the United States. Those college kids, those nerdy black kids, those. Those people that, you know, everyone, every demographics. Not just coffee shop chicks and white dudes. Common says peace to us collectively.
- [17:36]
C
Live and direct. When we perform. It's just coffee shop chicks and white dudes over her. I got into it with that Ice Cube. Not a fight move to in life making the right moves besides God and family. You my life's true like that.
- [17:50]
B
So when we get to Detroit. Detroit, Detroit, Detroit, Detroit, Detroit, Detroit, Detroit. Finally. I've heard about the legend of Dilla since Skills put us on to him in the tour bus and that sort of thing. So I will say that the. The first thing that really, really sparks off the movement to not only things fall apart, but also for the soulquarian movement and basically the kind of sound that we will have pioneered. I'll say that our zone is between 97 and really the end of that soulquarian kind of sound. Even though it never died. I'll say like it ends with commons electric circus. So I'll say like 2003. Yeah. Yeah.
- [18:48]
C
Deep in the rhythm experience speaks I'm keeping the wisdom the life hustler seek I'm seeking it with him I'm dope the streets need me to hit on.
- [18:57]
B
So 97 to 2003. And even though we're not going to get to gold, my manager Rich finally knows what we have to do that we didn't do on organics. That we didn't do on do you want more Nola Dillon Half life. And he's like, we gotta grow our own crops. And I was like, well, what do you mean? And he's like. He's like with the Exception of the One Hit Wonder, the Tiny Timbs of the world, the dudes that sing Macarena. Everyone is contextualized in a movement. And I was like, well, what do you mean? He's like, well, you know, you think you like Stevie Wonder, but you're really buying into the myth of Motown. You can't have Stevie Wonder without the Jackson five. Diana, Marvin, Smokey. And then he's like. He's like, look at you. You like Prince, but you know good and well that anything that prince was 6° of, you gotta buy the family.
- [19:49]
A
Sheila E. Morris Day, all them guys.
- [19:51]
B
And then whoever they produced and whoever they produced. And whoever they produced. And he went through the Blue Note Jazz roster, same thing. Like whoever they worked with. Whoever they worked with. And he brought it to modern times. Like TRL was on at the time. He's like, look at trl. Like, all them kids come from Orlando. So. Backstreet. Backstreet, yeah. Christina Aguilera and Brittany. And they're all contextualized. And I thought about it, I was like, oh, you're right. He's like the Bad Boy sound. And so he's like, we're basically an oasis. We are. We're a musical component without our own squad.
- [20:30]
A
There's no context to put y' all in, right?
- [20:32]
B
Like, who's our Dog Pound? Who's our Snoop? Who's our Dre? You know, who's like, who's our Tupac? If we were Death Row or if Bad Boy, whatever. So he's like, we basically gotta take everything that we've learned in the last. Everything that you've learned in the last 10 years since you and Tariq met in 1987. We gotta revisit it and refine it. So all the things that were good in the last 10 years, let's make a list of it. So as a result, probably the most impactful Tangent education that we had living in London, when we exiled to London back in 93 to 96 or whatever was the jam session. There was a club named Mycenae, three level club in London. Every Saturday night, signed a commercial R and B. On the floor, mid floor was like Esoteric House and Old School breaks and rare grooves and stuff like that. And on the top floor, it was bands jamming. And so we were like, we gotta do that. So when we started refocusing our contract, we told the label that we need a budget. They're like, well, who's Chef Terry? Da da da da da. And Terry was this guy that worked at one of These, like, I think this is before the talk of, like, you know, James Beard award winning chef and, you know, Michelin star restaurant. We had a Michelin star restaurant called Le Beck Fin in Philadelphia. It was like a French bistro thing. I think he started out there and then he became head chef somewhere else. But, you know, it was kind of a thing for, like, this black chef to be running a kitchen like that. So we told him like, yo, on Friday nights, can you come to Amir's house and cook food? Because food is the language that will draw every broke artist in the city.
- [22:42]
A
Oh, my God.
- [22:43]
B
And so I was like, go ahead, Rich. He's like, yeah, we'll use Chef Terry to cook all this food. And then all the musicians of Philadelphia are gonna come by your house expecting free food. And they will be like, gotcha. Here's some instruments. Let's have a jam session.
- [22:57]
A
Yeah.
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B
And this is kind of the seeds where the jam session that will eventually morph into what we call Black Lily. It was the roots jam sessions while we were making Things Fall Apart. Then it morphed into Black Lily because now we had to tour. We immediately went on tour as soon as Things Fall Apart came out. That night was really important that night. I remember Slim Shady coming out the same day.
- [23:24]
A
Yes. That was the big thing on my campus.
- [23:26]
B
Slim shady and TLC's fan mail album, the one with no Scrubs on it.
- [23:31]
A
That came out same day.
- [23:33]
B
And that's also the night that Lauryn Hill won. The Day that Things Fall Apart came out. That's the night that she won those eight grams. And the album of the year is.
- [23:45]
C
The Miseducation of Lauren Hill. Lauren Hill.
- [23:59]
B
Amen. Amen. Wow. And she was on the COVID Time magazine. And Christopher John Farley wrote this really, like, glowing, optimistic view of hip hop's future. Like Lauren's leading the way. And there's other groups like Lauren, like this group from Philly called the Root. So we're getting that.
- [24:19]
A
The associations happening.
- [24:21]
B
Yeah. That osmosis magic is instantly happening. So it was like Lauren's success was our success, and Rich was like, we got to prepare for it, so let's start growing our own crops. So Sunday nights, we would have jam sessions at Wetlands, the infamous spot where last episode where I had the Diddy running.
- [24:44]
A
Yeah. The lyricist lyrics.
- [24:46]
B
Yeah. The whole what they do thing. Then Friday nights, there's a jam session in my living room in South Philadelphia. I coincidentally lived on the same block that M. Night Shyamalan decided that he was gonna shoot his debut Film called the Sixth Sense. Weird enough. Like, we get home from tour, it's six in the morning, there's a red eye. Woke up, and the driver's like, dropping me off in the back of my house instead of the front of my house. I'm like, why'd you do that? Anyway, so I go upstairs. This is the day that Clinton had to do his first deposition on a Monteclonski.
- [25:24]
A
Yeah.
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B
So I, like, went straight to my room, got in bed, watched it for a little bit, fell asleep.
- [25:30]
A
I did not have sexual relations with that woman.
- [25:36]
B
4Pm, decided to get running, get a cheesesteak real quick. Ran outside, looked white, kid runs by and everything. Excuse me, is your name Bruce? Cut.
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C
Cut.
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B
It's like, what? And I realized. I realized that that scene where Bruce Willis first sees Haley Joel, like, running down the block, like, I just interrupted that thing.
- [25:58]
A
Wow.
- [25:59]
B
And I missed the memo of, like, residents, please do not, like, leave the front. You know, they've been fully operational for like, three weeks. I'm just getting home, had no idea they're shooting a movie on my block. And I'm looking like, whoa. Like, all the dilapidated abandoned houses are now fixed. And it's beautiful. And M. Night Shyamalan's like, Questlove. And that's how it start. So that's the block I lived on. Friday nights, my manager's like, okay, jam session at the crib. So I was cool with it. But it's also like, I have thin walls. And they were already, like, during the Ill Adelf half life period. Like, sort of like passive aggressively. Let me know. Like that.
- [26:43]
A
It's too loud in there. Woo.
- [26:45]
B
Yeah, y'. All. Y' all worked on music. Tula always till three in the morning like that. Ah, I'm sorry. Okay. I promise to close the window. And you know, that, you know, that sort of thing. So, you know, Rich promised me that, you know, we'll start at five and we'll end at nine, right? Hell no.
- [27:02]
A
Come on.
- [27:03]
B
So I'll say the first two weeks it was cool. But then, like, it just became so overcrowded. And the thing is, literally anyone and everyone who's in that living room will be impactful in history. You know, the basis of it is the roots, the jazzy, fat Nasties.
- [27:29]
C
Chasing the dream. Is she the fail feminine that she's taken.
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B
Our tour manager Nahan had a group, three, seven, thousand and nine. Fatin, who was, you know, will later start Kindred, the family soul.
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C
So many times you could have walked.
- [27:57]
B
Away.
- [27:59]
C
But I didn't have to say a word to convince you to stay.
- [28:07]
B
He's there. He has no clue that his future wife Asia, who was signed to Paul's label, Delicious Vinyl. You know, it was like Brandy, Monica Fever, like, let's find the new 16 year old R and B sensation person. So she's there and then sudden, you know, just bit by bit, like, our friends are like, you know, well, my homegirl who works at Blah Blah Blah on South street, she sings and all that stuff. And oh yeah, let her come by. And that's Jill Scott. Suddenly this really weirdo centric 9th grader is making these crazy, like, primitive. I guess he's getting. I guess he's singing. It looks like performance art. His name is Bilal. Bilal's there. Fatim's like, yo, our homegirl from Atlanta is going to visit a little bit. She plays like acoustic guitar. So for a few occasions in the Aries there. I always. I hate revisiting these jam sessions because I know I always leave somebody out, of course, but you know, and then the esoteric side is there. But now, like the Malik element's there.
- [30:01]
A
I see.
- [30:01]
B
You know, and we would call these gentlemen thugs.
- [30:13]
C
Thought they was, when of course they wasn't pumped up with the dozen, the pellets.
- [30:17]
B
But, you know, Malik is like bringing a South Philly squad there, you know.
- [30:22]
A
And I meant to touch on this last time we talked too, because there is something about Malik that is like, it. It invokes this long line of like Philly street rappers that are like absurdly technically gifted. You know what I'm saying? You got the Beanie Siegels, man. I had a. I had a list prepared. But like.
- [30:43]
B
And by the way, that's who I'm talking about. Thugs like Malik's like, bringing in. I'm complaining. Cause I'm like, yo, why are you guys putting your. You remember Beatties?
- [30:53]
A
Yeah, like I was telling somebody about beatties the other day and they were.
- [30:56]
B
Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Right? I used to make fun. Like, there's now. There's now the millennial set who's like now in their mid-30s, almost early 40s. And you know, they're like the college kids that were like in hookah bar. Hookah bars, like, forever. And I'm like, oh, God, you hookah bar. Well, your generation was smoking Beaties. Like, it's like diet weed.
- [31:17]
A
It's like smoking incense. It was crazy, right?
- [31:19]
B
It might as well be smoking incense. But you know, so suddenly, like, I'm Reggie Hammond and Trading places. Like, who's putting out they blunts on my floor? Who's putting out they blunts on my floor? And it's Beanie.
- [31:36]
A
Freeway.
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B
Freeway. Kristenieve so basically, who we now know.
- [31:41]
A
As, like, state property.
- [31:43]
B
The state property pets. And they're there. The most ridiculous irony of it all cut to, like, four months later, where it's to the point where this might not be fun for me anymore. Cause now it's in your house. It's in my house. It's going to three in the morning. People going outside, talking loud. I'm like, yo, I got neighbors. And it's to the point where I'm calling the cops on myself.
- [32:32]
A
Get out of here.
- [32:33]
B
I'm the original Karen. I am. I mean, yes. There's a disturbance at Turner St. Albans place in South Philadelphia. And they're like, you're calling from the address that you're talking about. I'm like, across the street. Like, I'm not too bright on that thing. I'm, like, forgetting that they have, like, tracers and whatnot. So I'm like, calling the cops on myself, trying to get my house cleared out.
- [33:01]
A
Funny.
- [33:01]
B
Waking up the next day, like, it's like keger after Keger after Ker. And I'm like, yo, man, y' all gotta get this. We gotta get this out my house into somewhere else. Cause, you know, at its most ridiculous, you know, Kilo's boy's daughter's best friend, you know, some 9, 10 year old girl that allegedly has a voice like an adult. And I'm like, no, we can't let no kids in this house. And no, man, but she's talented and she's only 10 years old. And, you know, Jasmine Sullivan, okay, With that same goddamn voice.
- [33:39]
A
That's crazy.
- [33:40]
B
The voice of an adult.
- [33:45]
C
I would prove that I could be a better girl. Oh, if you let me Back again.
- [34:00]
B
And when we've run out of food, you know, so suddenly. Now the pizza guy. What's going on in here? Oh, can I. Can I get on the mic? Whoa. And it was sort of like, wait, what the hell's he doing here? The. The pizza guys, like, are we a talent show now? Music, soul child. Oh, shit, girl.
- [34:23]
C
I know this might seem strange, but. But let me know if I'm out of order for step into you this way.
- [34:33]
B
But to me, it's now out of hand. So I got two worlds I gotta serve. I got this world, but then I also have voodoo world. So my epicenter at Electric Lady Studios with d' Angelo is Also drawing in like minded artist and whatnot. So I'm, like, caught between two universes.
- [34:57]
A
And y' all are. You're recording things fall apart and do voodoo at the same time.
- [35:01]
B
So I will say that voodoo started on the last day of Villa Dolph Half Life. We did the hypnotic, and I finally got him to admit this. Years later. I hope I ain't blown up his spot. D and time are not mutually acquainted. And I would say the only time that was like, meep, meep, was. He was on the phone. I was like, yeah, man. So, you know, anytime you want to come down, start working on the hypnotic or whatever. He's like, yeah, yeah, you know, we. We can set time, whatever. I said, it's cool. I said, no time for. No need to do it this week because, you know, we're still, like, working on other stuff on our thing. And then. Oh, I forgot to mention, we're. We're gonna start work with Erica. We're starting her record. So she down here too. Oh, wait, what? She down there too? I was like, yeah, yeah. So we're working on. Wait, are you at the front door? Wait, you were just in New York one second ago, right?
- [36:03]
A
Oh, God.
- [36:04]
B
Motherfucker was like, three hours later.
- [36:06]
A
Wow.
- [36:07]
B
Like, what are you doing here? And. Nah, you know, just came down, catch a vibe. I will say that everything that you've ever heard about the Erykah Badu effect.
- [36:20]
A
Yeah. The legendary.
- [36:22]
B
And I wisely said that, yo, we will never, ever look her in the eye. This is why we avoided that. Because it's just she is that type of Pleiadian.
- [36:32]
A
There's some magic there.
- [36:33]
B
That type of alien figure that instantly, yes, I will do anything you tell me to do. And literally. So he knocks out the hypnotic.
- [36:51]
C
That faded like a dream sequence. That persuaded. Beyond being infatuated, spiritually intoxicated, calm, sedated, I concentrated on how to get in touch with her. Cause the fact of the matter remained that I missed the hypnotic, the hip, not a hit.
- [37:16]
B
And we got time on the clock left. And we have yet to. We know we're kind of birds of a feather. Like, he has his intentions too. Like, you're about to be my main collaborator. And my thing with him is, like, I think musically, you're the type of musician that sort of. Like, the way that I'm thinking in my head, like, based on your messed up drum program and all these new JD beats I'm hearing, I think that you're on that level too. So the engineer was like, he's like, say no more. So he set up a Rhodes, set up some drums, and for like, four hours, like, we just started testing each other on songs and doing Earth, Wind and Fire songs, doing Prince songs, doing Roy Ayre songs, and, yo, this is. This is a moment. So that's kind of where it starts. And then he hits me up like, yo, man, like, I never thought I'd meet a musician that thinks like, I do. So instantly we start work. So I believe the next week we start Vudu at Battery Studios and we start working on Send It On. And there's a song called Bitch with the. With the most disrespectful middle finger of a lagging drum beat ever. Enough to jar me. And I'm like, well, yeah, I've thought about, like, just messing with a little bit, but you're, like, blatantly playing offbeat. He's like, yeah, man. Like, that's the future, man. Like, let's get. Let's. He. He just wanted everything dirty. He wants to get dirty, man.
- [39:09]
A
Like, yeah.
- [39:10]
B
And so what he essentially had to do was he had to, like, he had to groom me for like, maybe three weeks. Not three weeks. Like, three weeks to a month to really. And all those work tapes. Like, we'll be jamming and then suddenly it's like, you know, we'll be jamming and then, you know, he'll be like, yo, like, lay back more than the cut. Like, let it drag a little bit. And, you know, in the beginning, I had a little resistance. Cause I'm like, well, it's kind of breaking the law, right? Like, isn't this breaking the law? He's like, nah, man. It's just. It's like. It's a feeling.
- [39:50]
A
It's like James Brown gonna come through the wall.
- [39:52]
B
Well, that's the thing. Like, you gotta. In order to drum, like I drum, you have to. You. You have to just drop your ego. Like, here's an example. So the process with Vudu is we are basically like, we'll go through someone's canon. So let's say now this is a day where we decided we're gonna do all DJ premiere stuff. Yeah, yeah.
- [40:36]
C
So get down, get down with the gangsta foundation.
- [40:40]
A
Oh, shit.
- [40:42]
B
So we're just like. We're two hip hop heads that are not making hip hop, but we're essentially songwriting in the studio. You're supposed to do pre production outside the studio, come to the studio with a final idea and record it. But no, we're going to use the studio as our worksheet. And, you know, some days we. We'd have some, like, literally, like, if we have no ideas, then, all right, let's do Rick James today. And we'll just start and then there'll always be a moment where it's like, yo, yo, yo, keep on drumming, Keep on drumming. And then he'll. He'll hear him and he'll start playing something. So, like, songs like Player Player, Songs like Great Day in the Morning.
- [41:56]
C
Say.
- [42:08]
B
Those were whole other songs that. And Prince used to do the same thing. Like him and Morris would jam to something. And once Morris's drums are the foundation, then Prince goes back to those bare drums. Erases everything except for the drums, and then creates a whole new song around what Morris just played. So that's kind of the process that we're doing for Vudu. So I will say that in 97, early 98, I was like, 65% voodoo, 35% things fall apart. So this is also the point where we're starting to record sound checks. You know, have a cassette running and we'll do sound checks for two hours when we're on tour in Europe or whatever. So we already had like Rahzel's default sound check to test the system. Because we are officially the loudest band of music. When you're in concert, sound company wants you to keep it at 99 decibels. 105 DBs. The roots are like 145 DBs.
- [43:24]
A
Holy shit.
- [43:24]
B
But it's not. And the thing is, even though the meter is going in the red and sound companies are losing their mind, like, we don't have insurance to pay for. There's no precedent for it because we're not loud in the sense of mid range. We're not taking these loud rocket. But bass, the vibration from the bass is an invisible silence that doesn't register as we all cut that noise down to the contrary, most. Most of our audience is holding their stomachs. Cause too much bass. Hub, too much bass. My kick, too much bass. Rahzel, too much bass. So we were like, hands down, we learned that from the Beastie Boys. Like, we had to be the loudest. So once we started raising our price up a little bit, the first thing we did was like, we need double the sound system. Like, do we pocket the money or do we invest in double the sound system? And we was like, nope. More subs. More kicks. More. Oh. Oh, man. I couldn't take it. Well, why didn't you just go to the back? Cause it was so great. And that's basically like our sonic assault was like our weapon. So I'll say that 100% Dundee was kind of like Rosel's default sound check song. He would just do something in C and then, you know, come on, get on keyboards and do whatever. So we had that in the bag. 100%.
- [45:03]
C
Yo, on these 73 keys to Ivarina Ebony, I swear solemnly that I forever rock steadily. People want to know what Malik.
- [45:10]
A
What does Dundee mean?
- [45:12]
B
You know, Tariq is. There was one point where I was leading the race in fastanista, like, and being the fastanista of the roots, where my dad and mom were really, really hip. Like, they was rocking Jabot's, like, back in the early 80s, before the 90s comeback and all that stuff. So I would always rock my dad's hip clothes to school when the kids were impressed. Like, you know, and that's where you say, like, oh, these are, you know, jeans from France. And, you know, I'm. I'm hipper than you are. So, you know, like, they just never seen a black kid dress alt before. Like, wait, your mom let you put holes in your jeans before you're allowed to have acrylic paint on your thing? And so I will say that Tariq at one point, was, like, really, really impressed with, like, yo, you're wearing a durag. Like, Aunt Jemima. Like, it was just like, I was the leader then suddenly, I think that emboldened him and made him more bold to, like, not dress for around the way, but, like, so Tariq's spot was always Banana republic, and the early Banana Republic thing was just straight up khaki stuff. So we were jungle brothers heads. So I don't know. For him, it's just like, Dundee was just like, you know, a fresh brother that sort of is somewhere in between, not Brooklyn fatigues. Yo, what's up, son? You ready to smoke this blunt, man? Not like that, but, like, you know, just like a certain hipness.
- [46:47]
A
I know what you mean. I. I know the style that.
- [46:49]
B
That.
- [46:49]
A
That it's invoking now. I think I understand.
- [46:52]
B
Yeah. So, you know, just 100% Dundee.
- [46:54]
C
So Black Door, I represent the 5th D lick 100% Dundee Malik B, I represent the P5D gorilla click 100% Dundee Black Thor, I represent the 5th Dynasty lyrical click 100% Dundee Malik B. I.
- [47:10]
B
Represent the B5D gorilla Cl that was in the bag. And I think maybe by the last two months, this is the first time we traveled in a circle. Start off in the west, start in the United States, make our way through Europe, then go to Japan, where. Another thing is that before YouTube, I was YouTube. I go to Japan, and our translators, like, you remind me of Don Cornelius. And I was like, what's he know about Don Cornelius? He's, oh, Soul Terrain. We love a Soul Train. I said, you know what Soul Train is? He's like, yeah, it comes on all the time. I'm like, wait, you know where to find soul? Like, there was no archival thing unless you were a documentarian or had a relationship with Don Cornelius. And I didn't grow up with the VCR until 84. So, you know, 70s sold. You know where to find, like, vintage 70s things. And my translator, on days off would take me to, like, video villages, and suddenly, like, whoa, the Commodore's live in 75, and da, da, da, da. And I'm telling my friends, like, guys, you will never guess. So at one point, James Brown is calling Prince and Michael Jackson on stage the greatest piece of video ever. Dude, nobody. When I tell you that was Amir's little boy that cried wolf story, right? And I'm like, guys, for real, I believe. Please believe me. Please believe me. I'm like, for real. Prince, Michael Jackson, and James Brown on stage. And I'm, like, recalling the whole thing. And they just like, I'm hearing his tall tales, and then I bring the tape, and they're like, oh, my God, that really did happen. So let's give another standing ovation for a young man sitting behind you that.
- [48:58]
C
You have no idea who's in the audience. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson.
- [49:12]
B
Once I came to Japan, then I had to travel with four giant kipling bags. Two for my clothes and two for just videotapes. And the way that you have a backpack. I would just walk down the street with these videotapes. And for the most part, those videotapes stayed at Electric Lady. So we would just sit.
- [49:33]
A
You and d' Angelo would sit down.
- [49:34]
B
Sit and watch concert after concert after concert and think of, like, oh, we could steal that from Earth, Wind and Fire. We could steal that from Al Green. We could. You know. So that's what's happening. So the next movement, by the time we got to Japan and Australia, the last stop on the tour was Hawaii. And then, next thing you know, two years has gone by, and we've officially serviced Ill adelf Half Life to the World. So we kind of had. We had the Next movement and 100% Dundee in the bag.
- [50:02]
A
Y' all had been performing those or just. Y' all had Recorded them by the.
- [50:06]
B
Time we got to Hawaii, because it's in C minor, which is also the same key as, like, proceed. Then it's like, all right, well, let's.
- [50:14]
A
Throw it in there.
- [50:15]
B
Let's start the show with that freestyling thing or whatever. So proceed, people. And continue to rock. And continue to rock. Yeah. I'll say, like, by the time we got to Australia, we started throwing in, like, the next movement. So when we get home, I'll say that the very first song that we recorded was. I think I did table contents just to feel my way around the studio. Like, it'd been a minute since the days of Illidolf Half Life. And I didn't know what direction. Like, by that point, I was aware that, like, okay, when we do a record, then we clear the table, and then there's something else, and then we clear that table. Now Illidolf Half Life's this thing, and I didn't wanna make a record like that again where, like, I'm under duress and I gotta save my reputation and, you know, fight to get on my own record.
- [51:34]
A
So then what is the philosophical approach to the music this time?
- [51:38]
B
Well, I did. I knew that probably the. The most important creative spark that we got when Things Fall Apart was going to Detroit, Michigan, and T3 and Dilla giving me a cassette copy of Fantastic, Volume 1.
- [51:58]
C
Bobby, I don't know yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know why the I'm with you I don't know why the fuck. The fuck. Don't worry with you I don't know why the fuck I'm with you I don't know why the fuck I'm with you.
- [52:14]
B
That's my man, T. Now there's a. There's a. A. A preface to that, which is, we're in Germany and I'm checking my pager messages. It's. It's. It's Tip's voice and d', Angelo, obviously. They're either in, like, one of their cars or whatever. And all I know is, like, it's. It's. They're playing this in the phone. But actually, you know.
- [52:46]
A
You know, it's that.
- [52:49]
B
Hey, yo, it sounds more. Sounds more like, akin to. Like a radio. Like, I'm listening to this right now. It's 1997, and it's actually 96. Long distance is a motherfucker. So when I'm checking my messages, that might be my per diem for the day. That might be 15 bucks just to check messages for three minutes. You know what I mean? Hear Your girl's voice for three seconds, you know? But when they're playing this in the background, I was like, yo, I could either get some food or I could run to the 7:11 three blocks from here and get three phone cards, get a phone call. And I got the phone card, and I was like, yo, play me that shit again.
- [53:40]
A
You know what's funny? That sound like you playing.
- [53:42]
B
Well, it was my calling. It was Moses coming to the mountain. It was my Come to Jesus moment. And then suddenly, like, I guess they played me the entire Fantastic Volume one on the phone. The phone bill. I. Yeah, like, I, of course, ran out the phone cards. $60 worth right there. So you're talking about, like, a week's per diem.
- [54:05]
A
Jesus.
- [54:05]
B
That's for me to get some French fries and like to not starve in Europe. And I didn't care, man. I was like, yo, okay, we. We got. We got backstage snacks. We got turkey meat, some cheese, yogurt. I could survive off bread, mayonnaise, turkey, cheese and yogurt, and spring water for a week. And one second, I got to Detroit, man, and sat. Sat in the Dilla, laid, you know, he'd name his cars after him. Him and Frank came and picked me up and took me to the crib. Took me to East Detroit.
- [54:40]
A
And what year is this?
- [54:42]
B
Is smoking grooves, 97, okay? So he puts the fantastic cassette in my hands. And when I brought that on the tour bus, man. Jesus Christ, man. It was like. It was like spraying glade and a stink bathroom. Like, it was just like, this is. I'm clearing the air. And here's the thing, though. Tariq stole that cassette. I was mad as shit, but I was also happy shit. Because, like, all right, this is my side of the fence of music. So I know I gotta worry about, you know, last. Last albums, you know, hijinks with. Trying to keep up with y'. All. Side of the fence now. Now, the Pendulum.
- [55:27]
A
That reminds me of a quick personal story. I'm dropping you real fast. The summer that album came out. Fantastic. Volume Two, I think, is what ended up coming out. Right.
- [55:34]
B
Right.
- [55:36]
A
I was staying with some of my homies in Chicago in an apartment that we were all just crazy young college student assholes. Just entertain girls all the time. But it was usually, like, girls from the neighborhood of girls we worked with. And so an ongoing struggle was us playing music that we like and these girls being like, what the.
- [55:56]
B
Being impressed.
- [55:57]
A
Turn this off.
- [55:57]
B
Like, what?
- [55:58]
A
Like, that was the story of the summer. One time we put on Fantastic Volume.
- [56:03]
B
2 and they, they agreed.
- [56:05]
A
Now look, not only was they into it after they left, we couldn't find it.
- [56:12]
B
Cuz they stole contraband dog. The amount of copies I had to make for people, it just became all of us. I mean, I dubbed cassettes for my whole crew and it's like, it's just enlightening us. How's he doing this shit? And he explains to me that the first thing they did to make that record, they did it acapella. He would just put a hi hat.
- [56:37]
A
On, get the fuck out of here. And they would do all of their.
- [56:41]
B
Vocal shit, they would rhyme to it. And then he would have to force the will of his creations to whatever. Which is why the music and the lyrics match.
- [56:54]
A
It were blowing my fucking mind right now.
- [56:56]
B
Yeah, man. Yes.
- [56:58]
C
We dedicate this to these people out here getting banked. Where the pursuit of the money is reality never flown on a clique that you can't evaluate. See, I got things out here I need to situate. I got a fresh ass car with some gloss paint People walking down the street until they feed stain. I got econs out here having big things. As I sit into the crib with the sashay in my room with the shark with the big tank don't get mad cause I'm doing feces just can't.
- [57:32]
B
And he's telling me all the stories, like how he's getting the bass tones. He's like, oh, easy. And he puts a record on the turntable and he says the needle on the turntable and the turntable's not running. And he puts the volume all the way to the top. And he's turned the highs down from the, from the mixer and. And it's making a feedback noise. And he gets that MPC, the, the SP1200 records that. And then suddenly he puts it on all the keys. And now he, now I'm like, this is how you get your bass tones. I. I just became an apprentice at Dilla University and it's totally validating. Not only is it validating Hope, but it's also like requiring me to start from ground zero.
- [58:32]
A
In terms of your production, Just in.
- [58:34]
B
Terms of my drumming.
- [58:35]
A
I see, I see.
- [58:36]
B
Cause I thought I was gonna have to be the gospel chops. Yeah, look, mono hands, you know, throwing, juggling and all that stuff, which I really. Nah, man, I, I want it to sound like the records we sampled, right? My whole thing is like, if you're drumming, I'm gonna drum the part that makes you like, yo, that's the that's the four bars I want to sample.
- [59:06]
A
And yep, folks, we're ending it right there. Right when he starts talking about how Dilla changed everything. He gets into a lot more detail about that in our next conversation, so you won't have to wait long to hear more next week. Season four, episode 11 of what had happened was things fall apart, part two.