What Had Happened Was – “Things Fall Apart” (Season 4, Episode 10)

Host: Open Mike Eagle
Guest: Ahmir 'Questlove' Thompson
Original Release Date: December 13, 2023

Episode Overview

This episode marks the beginning of the deep-dive into Things Fall Apart, the breakthrough fourth album from The Roots, as part of a three-part arc concluding the season. Open Mike Eagle and Questlove explore both the historical context and the intricate, often personal, tapestry of events that shaped the album and the era. Questlove provides never-before-shared stories about the Roots' internal dynamics, their position in hip hop, building the Philadelphia neo-soul movement, and his evolving role as both drummer and bandleader. Along the way, delicious anecdotes and philosophical insights abound, with the real voices and personalities of both Questlove and Open Mike shining through.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Importance of Documenting Hip Hop History

• Questlove’s Motivation:
  Questlove frames the show as "therapy," explaining how sharing stories is rare and (“...people my age, you know, kind of eschew or try to duck and dodge their history because they feel like this means I'm old...” - Questlove, 03:55), but ultimately necessary.
  • Quote: “To me, this show is hip hop therapy, man... I feel like this show is like hopefully going to coax people out of their caves. And I hope so too, share their stories.” – Questlove (04:30)

After Illadelph Halflife: Hope, Setbacks, and Biggie

• The Roots anticipated Illadelph Halflife to be their breakthrough, but initial sales numbers disappointed (Soundscan: 300,000 units).
• A poignant narrative around their music video for "What They Do" (a perceived reference to Biggie’s “One More Chance”), and how Biggie’s death badly affected Questlove and their setlists.
  • Quote: “It’s almost like I immediately took what they do out of rotation... Even though I knew my intentions was never to bust shots at Biggie, the general world doesn't know that.” – Questlove (10:39)
  • This resulted in the Roots ceasing to play the song live out of respect and uncertainty about public perception.

Touring, Exposure, and the “Grow Your Own Crops” Strategy

• The Roots’ following grows from "playing empty bars... to 3000-5000" person bookings (12:05-12:40), primarily driven by relentless touring and opening on major tours, notably the Fugees’ Score Tour.
• Introduction to Smoking Grooves, a pivotal black music festival tour in the late 90s, featuring then-upstart acts like Erykah Badu and Outkast.
  • Quote: “It’s like having tickets to see the Chicago Bulls every day... I get to see all my favorite bands.” – Questlove (15:43)

Building the Philadelphia Movement: The Jam Sessions

• Questlove and his manager Rich develop a "grow your own crops" approach, recognizing the need for a squad or musical context, à la Motown/Death Row/Bad Boy.
  • Quote: “With the Exception of the One Hit Wonder... Everyone is contextualized in a movement. You think you like Stevie Wonder, but you're really buying into the myth of Motown... So he's like, we're basically an oasis. We are. We're a musical component without our own squad.” – Questlove (19:48)
• They begin holding jam sessions at Questlove’s house, baiting local musicians with Chef Terry's food, leading, over time, to a scene including Jill Scott, Bilal, Kindred the Family Soul, and more—initiating what would become the Black Lily open mic movement.
  • Quote: “Food is the language that will draw every broke artist in the city.” – Questlove (22:41)
• Crowd control at these sessions became so wild that Questlove once called the cops on his own party to clear out the house!
  • Memorable Moment: "I’m the original Karen... I'm calling the cops on myself, trying to get my house cleared out." – Questlove (32:32)

The Seed of Neo-Soul: Overlapping Universes of Creativity

• During this period, Questlove balances two “universes”—his home jam sessions and heavy studio work on D’Angelo’s Voodoo at Electric Lady Studios (34:33).
• The sessions become cross-pollinated, with musicians drifting between projects (Things Fall Apart, Voodoo, Erykah Badu’s work, etc.). Questlove describes the magnetism and creative force of Erykah Badu with humor and awe.
  • Quote: “Everything you’ve ever heard about the Erykah Badu effect... We will never, ever look her in the eye. This is why we avoided that.” – Questlove (36:21)

Dilla, Detroit, and Creative Transformation

• The decisive creative spark for Things Fall Apart came when Questlove received a cassette of Slum Village's “Fantastic Vol. 1” from T3 and J Dilla.
  • Quote: “It was my Come to Jesus moment... And then suddenly, like, I guess they played me the entire Fantastic Volume one on the phone. The phone bill. I. Yeah, like, I, of course, ran out the phone cards. $60 worth right there. So you're talking about, like, a week's per diem.” – Questlove (53:41)
• Dilla’s techniques—like recording vocals over a hi-hat, then constructing beats around them—inspired Questlove to reimagine his entire drumming philosophy, aspiring to make the "4 bars I want to sample."
  • Quote: “I just became an apprentice at Dilla University and it’s totally validating... Not only is it validating Hope, but it's also like requiring me to start from ground zero.” – Questlove (57:31)

The Roots as Sonic Pioneers – Live Sound and Session Work

• The Roots pushed live sound boundaries, focusing on “sonic assault” by beefing up bass and drums to generate unique impact at shows (43:24).
• Questlove recounts using soundchecks and concerts to road-test “Next Movement” and “100% Dundee” before they were officially recorded, and how they integrated influences and discoveries, such as rare VHS concert videos from Japan.
  • Quote: "So at one point, James Brown is calling Prince and Michael Jackson on stage—the greatest piece of video ever... and they just like, I'm hearing his tall tales, and then I bring the tape, and they're like, oh my God, that really did happen." – Questlove (47:10)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “To me, this show is hip hop therapy, man... I feel like this show is like hopefully going to coax people out of their caves.” (Questlove, 04:30)
• “It’s almost like I immediately took what they do out of rotation... Even though I knew my intentions was never to bust shots at Biggie, the general world doesn't know that.” (Questlove, 10:39)
• “Food is the language that will draw every broke artist in the city.” (Questlove, 22:41)
• “I’m the original Karen... I'm calling the cops on myself, trying to get my house cleared out.” (Questlove, 32:32)
• “Everything you’ve ever heard about the Erykah Badu effect... We will never, ever look her in the eye. This is why we avoided that.” (Questlove, 36:21)
• “I just became an apprentice at Dilla University and it’s totally validating... Not only is it validating Hope, but it's also like requiring me to start from ground zero.” (Questlove, 57:31)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:16 — Why documenting history matters; Questlove's reflection on memory and legacy
• 09:45 — The unintended Biggie reference and its aftermath
• 12:05 — Roots go from playing bars to big venues; opening for The Fugees
• 15:03 — Arrival at “Smoking Grooves” tour and its impact
• 19:48 — “Grow your own crops” strategy explained
• 22:41 — Birth of the legendary jam session scene in Questlove’s house
• 31:41 — State Property at the house; roots of a new Philly rap generation
• 34:33 — Dual creative universes: home jams and work at Electric Lady Studios
• 36:21 — The mystical pull of Erykah Badu
• 43:24 — Discussing the Roots' aggressive live sound strategy
• 47:10 — Bringing rare concert tapes from Japan, making the Roots’ musical education global
• 51:37 — The influence of Dilla's “Fantastic Vol. 1” on Things Fall Apart
• 56:37 — Dilla’s technical innovations; Questlove’s artistic awakening

Conclusion

This episode expertly weaves personal anecdotes and musical history, drawing a vivid map of the Roots' transformative late-90s years. Listeners get unprecedented insight into the making of Things Fall Apart, the genesis of Philadelphia’s soul movement, and the powerful, sometimes chaotic energy of Questlove’s creative world. Through laughter, candor, and deep reflection, this conversation captures not just the Roots’ journey, but the evolving spirit of hip hop itself.

Next episode: A deeper dive into Dilla’s impact and the musical specifics of Things Fall Apart, Part 2.